Ducati Monster Forum

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Tell me again why Ducati can't make a modern single that has that width and 500cc?
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To spite all the Desmotista who say they want one, but wouldn't buy one if it really existed. :D

It's very simple.  Come up with a design, offer it for pre-buying and see how many people will chalk up $3-4000 and commit to buying it when it comes.  If they don't buy, they lose their money, if it's not made within a reasonable time, they get their money back.

I'm all in.  Make it ~300lbs and 60 hp and i'm good.  They can do it.  The 600ss was 175kg dry.  That's with no carbon fibre or lightweight components.  They could do it.

This is the one that Bryan kept.

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I think that only works for engines that already have EPA/ECE certification... which is a pretty substantial cost even for a "boutique" bike... once production numbers get above whatever the cut-off is (~1500?), it's no longer boutique and has to do the whole testing cycle. And that's just the US requirement... I don't know what the level of ECE testing looks like.

And they have to compete with KTM, Beta and Husqvarna...

All good points.  They would have to design a bottom end that reuses a lot of components like they did with the mono, but all the regulatory issues.... I get it.  Do a small boutique run and see how it goes.. :-)

http://www.duccutters.com/richardfelkins-520Single.tpl#.VoSXU7JMHbU

Seems like its not as hard as its made out to be.

He was talking about issues relevant to production of street legal bikes, not one-off race bikes.

Right, production (OEM) street bikes, not bikes that have been modified from EPA certification.
Besides, I thought you were following the supercharged single... ;)

Somebody with the power want to slice this slight threadjack off into a separate thread?  

Ducatiz's wish is technically and it appears legally possible... I just know I can't do all the work... and Ducati doesn't appear to want to do it for the "hard" certification.

Like, for example, Motus... who is not on the "certified" motorcycle engine producer list for 2016.

I can slice it off, what do you want the title to be?

Fantasy Ducati Thumper?

Uh... sure?  I just feel that we are impinging on the "cool" factor by talking about annoying technicalities. (never mind the world's fastest Monster engine from an S4RS in a custom red frame)

No worries.

Yes, definitely deserves a seperate thread.

Thanks, Speeddog!

Now, let's cause trouble... who's in?

Maximum production is 3000 bikes a year "manufactured" (which in EPA speak also means imported) in the US per year.  That means total, all models, all engine families, etc.

The only competitor with current "certification" for 2016 is KTM at ~$10.5k.

With the wailing and gnashing of teeth at VAG due to recalls and such, the old air-cooled sand-cast tooling should come up for sale soon?

Which tooling are you talking about?

Also....

60HP out of a production 500 is ambitious.
KTM can get 50 out of a production 500.

KTM also has to play in the big-boy class, this fantasy gets more HC+NoX and the same 12 points of CO.  Although KTMs are water-cooled.  Nobody said anything about naturally aspirated...

I'm talking the patterns with which to make the molds for say: cylinders, cylinder heads, cases, etc.

i may be mistaken, but i think i saw this for sale on ebay not too long ago.

Half a 1198 makes a 599 thumper, 4v watercooled...
Would you keep front for low center of gravity or rear and shorten frame/lengthen swingarm?

I'd keep the vertical cylinder.

Dunno why they kept the horizontal on the Supermono, makes no sense to me.

It's a balance shaft.  Plus it let's them use the same crank and case.

Same parts will work either way.
set up like they did it on the Supermono, or with the balance rocker on the horizontal and active cylinder on the vertical.

If I had a "rich aunt", I'd take a Borile.  ;)

I think for the supermono it made sense to keep the weight down low.

For a scrambler...   I'd put the horizontal head on the vertical cylinder move the plant up and forward in a shallow sump case. 

I would use small end located piston, and just run balance on the flywheel... Harmonic damper or whatever.

That 599 848 conversion uses a super lightweight balanced crank and a spacer where the second rod goes. Seems the simplest way.

Yeah, but the 848/1198 cases have the dangly ball-sack sump.  It just looks like it wants to meet a babyhead rock square on the drain plug.

Shallow sump looks better in my head, especially after adding skid plate.

999 shallow sump would work for a 500 thumper.

Small motor cases (800 and smaller wet-clutch) are about 1/2" shallower than the big case.

Dunno compared to the deep-sump, IMO those are a lost cause for off-road use.

Depends whether this fantasy thumper is a street unit or a dual-purpose ride.

True. Sooo 400 thumper scrambler... 600 thumper supersport

OK, 2 models then.

I'd prefer Enduro and SuperSport.

Scrambler has already been sullied by various foo-foo motos.

how about an old 620 mts with a thumper and big front rim

Well, the original spec said 60hp... Leaning toward watercooled.

None over the large case stuff seems to fit the small cases.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Ducati-749-999-Motor-Engine-Case-Block-OOS-/380394406243?nav=SEARCH

The problem with the supermono design is width.

Have a look at one of the old singles.  They are absurdly narrow.

The frame bends inward where the vert cyl was.