http://www.bakersfield.com/hourly_news/story/498658.html
the beating was for nothing.
http://www.bakersfield.com/1380/story/495427.html
the cycle continues.
at what point do the good people step in and put a tire iron in the spokes?
Sterilization.
or prison for the parents
an 81 y/o man is gone
a family loses a grandfather and father
and in 72 hours (the time that was given to evaluate the kid), 81 years of life is shit on.
If that kid was soooooo incompetent, why was he let out to roam the hood at 5am? Charge the parent then.
If these kids have the smallest inkling of right and wrong they need to be held responsible. Either way, they should never see the streets again, be it asylum or prison.
Quote from: howie on July 17, 2008, 12:53:14 PM
If these kids have the smallest inkling of right and wrong they need to be held responsible. Either way, they should never see the streets again, be it asylum or prison.
+1
he understood what the objects being used to beat the old man were for...to get his $ (ok alum cans but same thing in this case)
And the judge just confirmed in this kids miniscule bit of common sense that it's ok to kill someone for a few bucks and be stupid.
The judge is a liberal waste of law enforcement in this case. Put he kid in Juvi period.
Quote from: howie on July 17, 2008, 12:53:14 PM
If these kids have the smallest inkling of right and wrong they need to be held responsible. Either way, they should never see the streets again, be it asylum or prison.
Put all four to death. Display bodies. Buy air-time on local television to display same. Deterrence is the key.
Quote from: Sinister on July 17, 2008, 03:30:30 PM
Put all four to death. Display bodies. Buy air-time on local television to display same. Deterrence is the key.
+1
We all probably paid for their first 13 years their of room and board, and I sure as hell dont want to be paying for these rotten bastard's food, clothes and housing for the rest of their pathetic wastes of life.
OR
Send those make the beast with two backsers to Indonesia or Thialand to make sneakers and soccer balls in sweat shops. We could trade for orphins and I would happily pay for one of those underprivledged children to come here and learn.
Quote from: 55Spy on July 17, 2008, 03:24:14 PM
he understood what the objects being used to beat the old man were for...to get his $ (ok alum cans but same thing in this case)
And the judge just confirmed in this kids miniscule bit of common sense that it's ok to kill someone for a few bucks and be stupid.
The judge is a liberal waste of law enforcement in this case. Put he kid in Juvi period.
I think there is a lil more to it than whats being reported. It's the DA's office thats basically allowing the charges against the kid to be dropped.... and that not something the local DA is known for. I hate our local DA for many many reasons (I once had a custom plate holder for my truck that said "Ed Jagles has a small penis"), but when it comes to cases like this.... they/he are not known for dropping charges.
something sneaky is going on.
Quote from: DuCaTiNi on July 17, 2008, 12:43:09 PM
or prison for the parents
In some countries, offenses such as DUI, spouses and other family members are jailed along with the offendor.
If we base punishment of this on a Singapore standard, ie, caning for spitting, what would be appropriate for beating to death? Eye for eye, I say!
Because they are minors, parents need to have equivalent punishment.
The benefit to society - We clean up that end of the gene pool.
Quote from: Sinister on July 17, 2008, 03:30:30 PM
Put all four to death. Display bodies. Buy air-time on local television to display same. Deterrence is the key.
Public Hangin'!!!
"Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorence on this thing, because if anyone had said anything . . ."
(http://nyc.metblogs.com/archives/images/2007/01/George-Costanza.JPG)
Another, somehow douchier, kid that was not parented:
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20080717_Alleged_DUI_killer_s_MySpace_profile_depicts_youth_consumed_with_money__drugs_and_graffiti.html
Bonus quote from mom, "He just ran a red light and got into a car accident." [bang]
I think society would be much more polite if the kids and parents were beaten to death in public as punishment.
All this does is tell other kids that you can get away with murder. I can go out side right now and kill someone
I don't even know. I can be back on the street in as little as 2 years. Eye for an Eye.
I agree. It is amazing to think about how much more respectful and law-abiding society would become if people were to actually be held accountable for their actions. There is definitely something to be said for bringing public execution back.
Quote from: bobspapa on July 17, 2008, 03:39:15 PM
something sneaky is going on.
Interesting, bobspapa. I would suspect Sharpton or The J-man, but they usually are very high-profile.
Random interesting side note (to me): the DA is a Gong. I hear their family has a lotta power out in those parts.
More on topic, how the hell does being an idiot protect you from punishment for something you did? It's one of those ideas where you say, "It's so stupid it just might work." [bang]
Quote from: erkishhorde on July 18, 2008, 10:12:44 AM
Random interesting side note (to me): the DA is a Gong. I hear their family has a lotta power out in those parts.
More on topic, how the hell does being an idiot protect you from punishment for something you did? It's one of those ideas where you say, "It's so stupid it just might work." [bang]
Scary that "Idiocracy" is happening before our very eyes. :-\
Quote from: WannaDucBad on July 18, 2008, 11:56:32 AM
Scary that "Idiocracy" is happening before our very eyes. :-\
I haven't seen that movie. Is it worth it?
It's a dumb movie about being dumb..... depends on your humor. I was mildly amused at points, others just depressed.
I don't like the off the cuff backlash remarks in vein of "get a rope!" It seems to miss the point. Much like presuming the policy of locking up all nonviolent drug offenders will somehow eliminate the market for elicit drugs. I don't want to veer into political territory here, but when it comes to solving societal ills in a humane and equitable manner, well that is what political institutions are supposed to be for.
I don't have a solution to the mindless violence like this. I wish I did. If you are a psycho and you kill people, well society will always have people like you. We just have to hope that we catch you before you do too much damage then inflict a punishment that keeps you from doing more. But the folks in this story were at some point capable of leading different lives. They could have been productive, happy and non-violent. Where did that get lost? Where did they make the wrong decision? It is probably the case that only they can know for sure.
But maybe they don't even know. Perhaps they can't think critcally enough about the choices they make in life to realizes the consequences their actions have on themselves, others around them and society at large. But I believe that critical thinking can be taught. Sure there are idiots that simply can not learn, but I believe that is a tiny minority. Going a step deeper in to this one facet of the problem, I think the reason critcal thinking skills are not taught more (as well as not not sought out by students more) is that there is this creeping epidemic of anti-intellectualism now.
If you are smart you are worse than just a geek or a nerd. You are a sell-out, you are an elitist, you are "acting white," you are "gettin' above your raisin'" you are snob. All of this for actively persuing teh very type of critical thinking skills that can let you realize, "hey, this dude ain't shit to me and there is no up side to repeatedly kicking him in the head. I'm going to walk away from this one." Like I said, I don't have a solution to this problem, but I beleive that more education, better education and halting the popular demonizing of the educated (as well as stopping the glorification of the stupid in its many forms) is a place to start. But how you even start that process boggles me. Getting educated takes effort. How do you get people to make that effort?
So after all that I leave you with a good bit from Bill Hick's on the anti-intellectualism here in the US (some NSFW language)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5979432869005873362&q=bill+hicks+reading&ei=dfKASKLjO4e6rQKg9omYDg
sac
/wishes he would have put more effort into getting educated
Quote from: SacDuc on July 18, 2008, 01:09:54 PM
...but when it comes to solving societal ills in a humane and equitable manner...
This is where you went horribly wrong, and exactly where you lost me. Who said anything about "solving societal ills" humanely or equitably (whatever that is supposed to mean)? If that's your goal, you've already lost the war Sahib. You can work towards solving societal ills all you want, but at some point you've got to point the .30-.30 at the fox who is killing your chickens and take him out.
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 01:20:23 PM
This is where you went horribly wrong, and exactly where you lost me. Who said anything about "solving societal ills" humanely or equitably (whatever that is supposed to mean)? If that's your goal, you've already lost the war Sahib. You can work towards solving societal ills all you want, but at some point you've got to point the .30-.30 at the fox who is killing your chickens and take him out.
Yes you do. If the fox is killing your chickens, kill the fox. Easy. Would you agree that there some problems that are not so black and white? Is there a way to get the other foxes fed that doesn't kill the chickens? Maybe then the fox can keep killing the mice that eat the grain that you feed the chickens. Yeah, I've over extended the analogy, but the point is that some situations get tricky quickly. No? Not all problems can (or should) be solved by shooting some one. In fact, some problems may be able to be solved or lessened before that becomes necessary. Do those statements sound plausible to you?
What I meant by "humanely and equitably" is that the trick is to find the appropriate punishment (the one that makes society safer/better) but not do it in such a way that is irrevicable in case the Government makes a mistake (I know, they do that so rarely). But, yeah, when during the trial against the pedophile six victims surface, shoot the fox.
And, did you really stop reading before the end of the first paragraph? If so I have to thank you for illustrating one of my points.
I'm an engineer, it's all black and white (to my wife's chagrin ;D)
In this case, it's time to draw from the scabbard.
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 01:35:26 PM
I'm an engineer, it's all black and white (to my wife's chagrin ;D)
In this case, it's time to draw from the scabbard.
Agreed. I guess I was just wondering about how this type of thing could be made to happen less in this country. Deterring people is one part to be sure. I was just trying to say that teaching crtical thinking may be another part of the puzzle. Maybe start a discussion on how to effectively do that. Seems more productive than to simply chamber an internet round.
sac
Quote from: SacDuc on July 18, 2008, 01:41:40 PM
...teaching crtical thinking may be another part of the puzzle
And, what 'critical thinking' methodologies would be necessary to make the decision to NOT bash in the skull of an 81-year-old man? Hmmm?
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 01:45:28 PM
And, what 'critical thinking' methodologies would be necessary to make the decision to NOT bash in the skull of an 81-year-old man? Hmmm?
I don't know. But I know that somewhere along the line you and I learned it. So the methode is out there somewhere, isn't it? Or were we smiled upon in the womb?
sac
Quote from: SacDuc on July 18, 2008, 01:49:07 PM
I don't know. But I know that somewhere along the line you and I learned it. So the methode is out there somewhere, isn't it? Or were we smiled upon in the womb?
sac
It's called 'mommy and daddy giving a shit.' That's the method. It can't be taught. I remember, back in the day, parents were held responsible for the actions/crimes/etc of their minor children. Somewhere this got lost. We should find it again.
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 02:28:10 PM
It's called 'mommy and daddy giving a shit.' That's the method. It can't be taught. I remember, back in the day, parents were held responsible for the actions/crimes/etc of their minor children. Somewhere this got lost. We should find it again.
Really? Are you saying parenting skills can't be taught? "Giving a shit" can't be taught, but I would guess most parents (even exceptionally bad ones) would tell you that they love their kids. They just suck at being parents (probably because their parents sucked at being parents). So that raises an interesting question: how do you teach parenting skills and motivate bad parents to become better ones. Note that this is "utopia" type thinking. This doesn't presume that any or all methodologies will work for the whole population. But I think everyone realizes that there is room for improvement.
How far back do we have to go to find parents responsible for the actions of their children. I did a bunch of stupid stuff as a kid and neither of my parents were locked up or given fines. Did this pertain to both parents? Or just the one caring for the child? And when did this change? Who passed the legislation? Was this on the federal level or did it creep across the country city by city.
sac
I'm very young, and also not quite a parent yet, so this is coming completely from my obeservations of parents around me and stories like this.
It seems like education should always be a solution to be tried, because I think wisdom above all makes for a better society.
However.
You can try to educate all the bad parents in the world as much as you can, and some will still not care enough to apply it. For example, kids in high school are provided education for 7-8 hours a day, but when tested on that knowledge, many of them flunk. The reason why is usually because they don't give a shit. (learning disablilities and others aside...) So if a parent truly doesn't give a shit about raising their children correctly, or to be contributing members of society, they are going to leave that education behind and continue reproducing children who beat the shit out of 80 year old men. A lot of parents may take to the knowledge and end up becoming good parents after all, but I'm sure a lot of them wont.
Another example is one I saw the other week. We were driving and I happened to see a woman driving in the lane next to us, small child in the front seat and two babies in car seats in the back. The woman was smoking, with all the windows rolled up, basically hot boxing her children inside. Does she know the ramnifications of secondhand smoke around babies? I'm sure she does. It's kind of hard not to these days. Does she give a rats ass? Nope. Apparently, her need to satisfy her addiction overrides her childrens' needs to breath fresh air. It's these kind of parents that give me no hope for the future, I fear that it will only get worse. This woman has been educated, she knows the risks, but she doesn't care.
Again, this is not based on any extensive wordly knowledge, or my own skills as a parent, and in no way superceeds anything anyone has said here. It's simply what I have observed. :)
As Deputy Fife preached, Nip it in the bud, Ange, You gotta nip it in the bud!
Parents should be held accountable for the actions of their minor offspring. That way maybe the "give a shit" theory will take effect - teach your kids that there is a standard of social behavior, and that actions have consequences.
Quote from: SacDuc on July 18, 2008, 03:16:53 PM
I did a bunch of stupid stuff as a kid and neither of my parents were locked up or given fines.
By "stupid shit", do you mean the shoplifing a candy bar, throwing a rock through your neighbors window, etc.?
or
does this include armed robbery, assult and battery, and murder?
I'm sure that when you were driven home in a police car (or when your parents had to come down to the store or police station), your parents did give you some type of indication that your action were wrong - lecture, spanking, grounding, punitive monitary re-payment.
Quote from: Bick on July 18, 2008, 04:05:15 PM
As Deputy Fife preached, Nip it in the bud, Ange, You gotta nip it in the bud!
Parents should be held accountable for the actions of their minor offspring. That way maybe the "give a shit" theory will take effect - teach your kids that there is a standard of social behavior, and that actions have consequences.
By "stupid shit", do you mean the shoplifing a candy bar, throwing a rock through your neighbors window, etc.?
THIS
or
does this include armed robbery, assult and battery, and murder?
I'm sure that when you were driven home in a police car (or when your parents had to come down to the store or police station), your parents did give you some type of indication that your action were wrong - lecture, spanking, grounding, punitive monitary re-payment.
Yes, I received punishment. My parents however, did not.
sac