Ducati Monster Forum

My S4R project is finally complete, so I figured it was time for me to actually build something from the ground up.

What is the best frame to work with to build an air-cooled monster with sub 1000cc engine. Understand with most engines its not going to be a straight drop in.

This will take me the better part of a year I imagine to pull all the pieces together.

C'mon Boys and girls let me have it.

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Parts I'd like to use that I have laying around:

999R forks
999R front wheel
S*R SSS
7 inch round headlight

Hmmm. Ill think about this a bit and call you bro.

Carbed 900 or 900ie?

848 main frame custom rear frame  620 or 1100 mts motored cafe racer. Mts 620 swingarm with dual rear shock, sc wire wheels. Monster 1100 headlight, ss600 exhaust.

Sorry didnt see what u had. Switch to ss frame and 944 motor

Looking forward to this. More vicarious pleasure. :D

Been having a think on it, how much fun could I have using the 1098 SF frame as a base? Am I committed to using a newish engine if I go with that frame?

All I know is this Monster has to have a SSS..... [beer]

SF1098 frame is configured for the SBK style swingarm, where the pivot shaft is fixed, and the swingarm has the bearings in it.

That's going to make it more difficult to use the S*R swingarm.

Would that swingarm fit a 900ie motor? I cant remember what cases fit what.

Kinda partial to the SF1098 frame as I can modify the backend easier. Can also find a nice swingarm......

900 engine is a wide swingarm pivot.

S*R swingarm is a wide swingarm pivot.

SF, 848-1198 frames are narrow swingarm pivot.

SF, 848-1198, Hyper & Multi swingarms are narrow swingarm pivot.

Wide and Narrow will not readily interchange.  Yes, some people have done it but it's not a walk in the park.

If you'd like a more modern motor, however, the 1100 motors out of the Hyper or Multi are a narrow swingarm pivot and will make much more power than a 900 will.

Why sub-1000cc?  Any reason?

How about a DS1000 (992cc)? If it's under 1000 for an insurance reason, start there and there are bore kits that will take it to 1080 I think. 100hp and gobs of torque.

Another thing to consider, the shock and pushrod attachment points are different for S*R swingarm and SBK/SF/etc swingarm.

So you can avoid shock/rocker/pushrod aggro by using matching frame and swingarm.

How complicated of fabrication work are you prepared for?

Good points here.  The Multi/Hyper frames are designed for (narrow pivot) 2V engines, SSS arms & they have sub-frames which can be easily modified...

Why sub-1000cc - just feel there is going to be too much wasted energy. I love the bikes but I just feel like even with my S4R, there is so so much power I'm not using cause Im not tracking this nor the bike I'm going to create. Want something that is a surgical knife between my legs. Not looknig to cut off my twig and berries but I want it to be nimble/capable or carving the shit out of a twisty road.

I've heard the myths about the 900 engine being so much fun on canyons. It checks the box on being a dry clutch and being a true aircooled monster.

Based on the comments, seems the 900 engine with a SS frame is the best way to go given I also have a S*R swingarm.

Fabrication - Dont mind the fabrication part as I know I'm going to tap local experts for help with some parts. I know my own limits  [beer].

This is good stuff gents, keep the insight coming....

Question - can I put a 900 motor in a SF1098 frame with a 1098 SSS? Or is that just asking for trouble and will look odd based on the dimensions of the 109 engine, etc.

Not entirely true. The 900 was oil cooled as well as air cooled. Splitting hairs though

Not all of them. They did away with the oil cooled cylinders ay some point...maybe with the W head models?

1998 was the last oil/air cooled 900's.  Heads were both 'V' and 'W' so no difference there.

The 900 engine is what it is.  I'm not going into it as it's entirely personal.  You will, however, have to modify the crap out of the swing-arm pivot in order to get it to work on a narrow pivot frame with a narrow pivot arm (SF and 1098).  There is NO getting around that.

I'm sure somewhere there's a thread detailing how to do that.  I have *NO* dimensions and *NO* experience doing this.  The 1 time someone asked me to do it, I farmed it out to someone and the results were beautiful.  That was 10 years ago.  If it were me, today, I'd just buy a narrow swingarm pivot case and de-stroke the crank until I got the power I wanted.

Again, 900 engines are what they are.  There's a definite reason they don't use them anymore.  Actually, several reasons.  YMMV.

Why not pick up a Hyper796 and start from there?  The dry-clutch conversion is available and the power will be on par with a 900 once proper fueling has been established...

Hm......might not be a bad idea. What frame will the 796 fit into? Sorry if its a novice questions

If you're buying here, then a HM1100 will be less expensive. Just sayin' ;D

I pmed you regarding grunt for tight roads and razor sharp handling. Torque beast, lightweight, razor sharp handling, dry clutch, simple air cooled desmodue = M1100

Not sure, but if the bike is to ride here on tight mountain roads then peak power is not the consideration, but you want usable torque down low, that and our very strict road laws.

Titan might have been impressed with the real world grunt of an M944 with FCRs when riding the Reefton Spur down here near Melbourne. Now days, the most expensive part of that exercise is buying the FCRs.

If you are looking for a surgical tool pass on the sf1098 frame as Ducati was thinking chopper when they raked that one out. I had an S model in and we had to turn it on its nose to get the Ohlins to work properly, they were not designed to bend as much as telescope.  I believe the smaller street fighter has better geometry.

I fully understand the smaller motor thing. Yes a 900 is not a small motor but it is the easiest (cheapest) way to get a dry clutch, 6 speed and plenty of fun parts for. you can choose carbs or efi for what ever reason. I will put in a plug for the FCR's as there has not been a EFI bike that makes any cool noises from the throttle bodies like a set of FCR's. You will pay for that with a bit more maintenance and a start up procedure right out of the 70's, but it is pure grin material when you ride.

I  would go 99 and newer motor and get the air cooled cylinders and larger charging system, studs were good and even the crank plugs were less of an issue.If you get the power itch throw a big bore kit in and you have 1000/1100 power, cams are available as well. If you are after a maximum 900 I have a couple 985 motors I would part with but that gets you back to how much motor is too much. This is why I have one 900 built to 950 and one to 853 Power numbers are academic unless you are racing.

Not to thread jack, as I have discussed this with Titan. Any thoughts on a 900ie motor with Ignitech ignition, Hi comps and FCRs? I have thought about doing one of these for awhile now. If viable, would you go with FCRs on short manifolds ala MBP or tandem FCRs on long manifolds? Or is it just cheaper and easier to run the OEM EFI with a PCV/PCIII? Of course it's cheaper. [bang] I mean for that snappy response, you cant beat FCRs over earlier injection, or is the "accelerator pump" function on PCVs that good?

You opened up your home to me when I came down Tony, I'll open up this thread to you. No thread jacking threats here

I am so partial to a 900 it makes me sick........I've wanted one for a while now and come close to buying a few but the deals fell through. I want FCRs for it but I hate idea of mucking around with them to get the idle right. It's why I have electric RC cars over gas ones. The idea of make the beast with two backsing with the mixture, etc. makes me wanna puke. I appreciate the talent that goes into those who can do it. I just wanna get on it no matter teh weather and ride the piss out of it and not worry too much.

That said, the sound..... [drool]. Its why I went dry clutch.

So 99 or later engine
What year 900 or SS frame is best to work with?

 [beer] You're welcome to stay again bro.

Once set up right FCRs are quite stable. They don't freeze and give smack in the back response.
You just gotta pump/squirt em to get started when its cold as theres no choke. Only problem now is that they cost as much as a low km 900 motor down here. Maybe bring a set back for your project or ship a motor back too?

That's what I'd do.
The only thing about that I don't like is the close-ratio transmission on the ie motors.
The no-oil cylinders and 3-phase charging are definitely good plans.

The 900SS that I built for a customer was that, with the standard long manifolds and a Nichols light flywheel.
I wasn't very enthused with the light flywheel, but it wasn't my bike or my money.
Customer was really happy with it, until he bought a 916.....

The long manifolds steal some power from the top end, but they give it back at lower rpm.
Short manifolds and split FCR's are a good bit more work to make happen.
For your riding environment, I'd say the long manifolds would be a better fit.

Not sure how the cost compares in Oz.

Yeah, maybe a Yoyo flywheel or machined down stocker. My old M900 had a stocker machined down to 900gm shedding about a kilo. It was a nice compromise. My mate with an SL944 has a Yoyo and doesn't like it either, he's getting old and wants a stocker [laugh]. The Yoyo is fine at about 500-600gm when I ride his bike imo. The Nichols is light as buggery from what I'm told.

It would be easier to machine down a 900ie flywheel with no ignition trigger on it?

My M750 carbie flywheel started out at 2052g, and ended up at 1726g after extending the trigger lump and a good bit of lathe work to lighten it.
I could have lightened it more, if I hadn't run out of time on the lathe I was 'borrowing'.
It's certainly not 'too light'.

I thought I weighed the Nichols unit, but I can't find that info.

IE flywheel would be easy to cut down.

A 900ie with ignitec and FCR carbs would be good I am sure. I have built a few 800ie motors running the FCR's with both oem Kokosan ignition and an ignitec so it can be done either way. I am waiting on speeddog to be the test pilot on a ignitec unit using the crank sensor pick ups, no reason it should not work great. I have just not tried one yet.

Injection would also be fine and lower maintainance just not as much fun in use. If going this route I would base it off a 5am ecu not the 15m.

I also would say gearboxes are subjective on my 900's I prefer the closer ratio gearbox which was only used in the 900 monster S models. It is an easy upgrade when building motors as it is the 748 gearbox and is pretty much a drop in. If you are running higher speeds or lots of extended time at higher speed the higher overdrive may be preferred. For track or tight twisty stuff I will take the lowered gear version.   

Project beginning.....

Finding a ton of 99 M900 frames, anything I should know before pulling the trigger on one from that year?

is there a better frame model year to have?

99  is a hoop style ride height adjuster if you are running a s2r swingarm the later style frames with a superbike style rod might be an easier conversion.

Thx Clubhouse

But, since all but the 2002 900 engines have 10mm engine mounting bolts and the later style 'ST-based' Monster frame (which readily accepts an S*R swingarm) runs the 12mm engine mounting bolts, you'll have to deal with a conversion there.

So pick up an 02 900 wreck and fit sss as the easiest starting point. Will it be a US reg or Aussie reg Titan? In Oz the frame is the bike and determines what you can and cant do. In Oz if you want a carbed 900 it will need a carbed 900 frame to get thru. If its a US bring over, then thats another matter.

Will be a US bring over. Cant have the locals pokieman able to stop my hustle...

Cool, you're a free man. [thumbsup]

My '01 750 had 12mm. mounting bolts, not sure about '00.  99 and older were 10mm. for sure.

Ah, SpeedyMoto frame slider fitment:
Monster 900    1993-00    09-0203
Monster 600, 620, 659, 695, 696, 796, 800, 1000, 1100, S2R, S4, S4R & S4RS    2001-    09-0201

2000 and older, 10mm. 

Whoops.  Yes, 2001 had the 12mm also.  Sorry

Awesome...the hunt continue

 [popcorn]

Secured an '01 900 frame. It's black, will need some serious TLC. Just going to go with a very nice gloss black. I need to try and find an engine now. Going to read back through the thread to figure out which is best for my needs. 

That frame is 12mm engine bolts, so '01 and later for direct bolt-up.

 [popcorn]
Any news?

Have the frame and forks sorted (999 Showa's). Trying to still locate a decent engine and rear shock that will work with the SSS conversion

Hows it goin'?

Engine secured. Working on trying to get someone near MD to begin assembly and wiring.

What motor and what are your plans for it?