Howdy folks - new to the monster realm, just picked up an '04 S4R, which I thought should have a lot of similarity (engine-wise) to my '00 996.
The previous owner of my 996 was a track day junkie and set it up pretty well - it has an ultimap chip, single injector conversion, and arrow exhaust with stock filters (no intake restrictors). It's really smooth and predictable when you crack open the throttle, and that smoothness continues as you go through the rev range.
The '04 S4R in comparison is completely stock right down to the udder, beer tray and evap canister. Though newer and with fewer miles than my 996, it feels clumsy when you crack open the throttle and just doesn't feel as smooth (or strong!) as you get on the revs.
i'm hoping some of you monster experts out there might be able to chime in: what's the S4R equivalent of the 996's ultimap/single-injector/pipe combo? I'm loving the ergos and style of the S4R, but really wish it felt as smooth as the 996...
thanks folks,
Scott in socal
Don't worry, you're in the right place. Folks with tuning expertise for your bike will chime in soon. I'm not one of them ;D.
I am no tuner but, you have have apples, altought 2 different kind of apples . . . And you have said it yourself:
996=tuned and modifyed
S4R=bone stock
Might be same engine but, 2 different ECUs . . .
Maybe copy-paste this on the Acc-Mod thread
S4R vs '00 996:
Heads are slightly different, lower exhaust cam position
Intake cam is different, slightly less duration, closing 10 degrees earlier
Airbox is totally different
Exhaust is very different
ECU is different
Quote from: DarkMonster620 on June 03, 2016, 07:28:23 AM
I am no tuner but, you have have apples, altought 2 different kind of apples . . . And you have said it yourself:
996=tuned and modifyed
S4R=bone stock
Maybe copy-paste this on the Acc-Mod thread
Hey there, thanks for the reply. I was probably babbling too much in my post... but I was hoping someone around here with S4R knowledge might also have a little 996 experience to be able to recommend a similar setup. Is it uncool to cross post this to acc-mod? Here's the pertinent question that was buried in my post:
Quotewhat's the S4R equivalent of the 996's ultimap/single-injector/pipe combo?
Quote from: segascott on June 03, 2016, 10:04:34 AM
Hey there, thanks for the reply. I was probably babbling too much in my post... but I was hoping someone around here with S4R knowledge might also have a little 996 experience to be able to recommend a similar setup. Is it uncool to cross post this to acc-mod? Here's the pertinent question that was buried in my post:
No problem . .. to answer the "buried" question, one[996] was custom mapped, the Ducati Performance map might help you a little, but, for more or a closer feeling to the 996, you would have to have the bike dyno tuned with a custom map
Quote from: Speeddog on June 03, 2016, 09:57:55 AM
S4R vs '00 996:
Heads are slightly different, lower exhaust cam position
Intake cam is different, slightly less duration, closing 10 degrees earlier
Airbox is totally different
Exhaust is very different
ECU is different
hey, thanks - some good info here. it was pretty simple with the 996, a lot of folks knew what the standard "make it run gooder" setup was... seems to be a lot more options with the S4R. Just started reviewing that closed loop thread over in mod/acc, looks like I have a lot of catchup.
Closed loop thread is very good, but not really relevant to your bike, as it's open loop.
There's a good bit of stuff that can be done to make your bike run better.
First off, is the maintenance up to date, specifically valve clearances?
I've been having the same problem with my S2R 1000. Different bike, I know, but the symptoms were similar. I just got home from Rexxer's shop where I had the throttle bodies baselined (synced and working as a team, apparently), and the ECU reflashed. My bike's also bone stock. It was impossible to ride smoothly at around-town speeds, and it would surge and buck always. The jury's still out, but my initial impression is that it is MUCH more controllable when cracking open the throttle from fully-closed, and runs more smoothly, now. Something to consider. The ECU flash was $300.
Exhaust system (udder removal mid-pipe) and a set of performance cans coupled with a ECU reflash to the Ducati Performance specs is a fantastic start.
+1 on Speeddog's comments about maintenance. The 1 thing I wanted to add to Speeddog's list of things to check: The throttle bodies grow a thin (at first) carbon ring around where the blades rest at idle. This *needs* to be cleaned and kept clean to get crisp throttle and off-idle response.
Thanks, Speeddog + duck-stew! I definitely want to do the cat removal, though I guess I'm one of the weird ones that actually likes the look of the stock cans (is it just me?). Wonder if that DP ECU reflash will still play nice with the stock cans...
...but if the DP reflash gives that smooth transition when you just crack open the throttle, I'm all for it!
Speeddog, the previous owner had the valve check done fairly recently. That being said, I've noticed some different sloppy things that the shop did (some bolts not tightened properly, clutch fluid wasn't flushed/bled even though they charged him for it, etc) so I think I'll need to go in there and double check.
Stew, I'll definitely check out the throttle bodies - been looking forward to tearing down the monster a bit.
Blalor: just what I wanted to hear - did you get the DP reflash? $300 sounds damn cheap if it cures the part-throttle fueling!
No, not a DP reflash. The tune is more-or-less specific to my bike. Disable the O2 sensors, "make it run better". I worked with David Lilliard (owner of Redline and Rexxer) and told him what I wanted. He maintains that the throttle bodies are never really set up correctly at the factory; I think the 1.5 hours of labor is approximately what's described here (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html). I think that's probably responsible for the smoother running engine and maybe some of the throttle control off-idle. The flash is probably responsible for getting rid of the surging, bucking, and hesitation. Again, I've got like 75 miles on the bike since doing it, but I'm quite optimistic.
I had assumed you had gone to Redline . .. you described the procedure David goes thru when working on bikes . . . he has a dyno, that is the best way to tune a bike . . .
Quote from: blalor on June 03, 2016, 06:56:47 PM
No, not a DP reflash. The tune is more-or-less specific to my bike. Disable the O2 sensors, "make it run better". I worked with David Lilliard (owner of Redline and Rexxer) and told him what I wanted. He maintains that the throttle bodies are never really set up correctly at the factory; I think the 1.5 hours of labor is approximately what's described here (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html). I think that's probably responsible for the smoother running engine and maybe some of the throttle control off-idle. The flash is probably responsible for getting rid of the surging, bucking, and hesitation. Again, I've got like 75 miles on the bike since doing it, but I'm quite optimistic.
Ah, gotcha - good to know. I'll do some reading up on the Rexxer tunes... I'll look up the procedure for syncing the throttle bodies as well, guessing it won't be much harder than syncing up carbs, right? Anyway, your description sounds great - that's definitely how I'd like the S4R to feel...
I think it is normal for a US model bone stock earlier (non testa) S4R to do bucking bronco at lower rpm, slower speed range, not running smoothly.
What worked for me, is
1 Arrow full exhaust system
2 open air box lid (the top of the air box lid is cut open, a la DP style)
3 flashed, custom mapped ECU
1,2,3, done all at the same time.
Dyno printout (yeah, it doesn't show you off idle to 3000 rpm smoothness, but I thought you might be interested.)
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Dyno_P-O.gif)
And then, after the regulator / rectifier died (and I pushed the bike for about a mile and a half, about an hour ...)
I relocated the R/R, which required removing the stock PCV (Positive Crankcase Venting) system hosing, I disconnect the pipe to the air box (the air box hole is plugged) and extended the vent hose all the way to behind the license plate.
This, also made noticeable difference. I didn't bother to check the difference on the dyno, though.(in theory, I should be loosing a little bit of HP). I felt like this smoothed out lower end even more.
Then, I lowered the final drive ratio a little bit.
So, I suggest you invest in ...
Free flowing exhaust, full system, NOT slip-on.
Cut down the air box lid. (otherwise, stock box would be too restrictive)
Reflash and custom map ECU
All three at the same time.
And then, ...
About Regulator / Rectifier problem on these bikes
I suggest you search on this forum about this and read by yourself, if you have enough time.
To cut it short, sooner or later your R/R WILL fail if you keep the stock design.
So, you have two choices. Wait until it fails (then you will get stranded and will have to buy a new R/R), or relocated the R/R now (then, it will prolong the life time span tremendously (R/R's, not yours).
Unfortunately, relocating the R/R into the “right place†requires removal of the stock oil catch tank.
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/IMG_0359.jpg)
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o420/ZX750E2/Monster/IMG_0357.jpg)
So, when you do this, you are looking at two mods at the same time. Reloacating R/R, and disconnecting the PCV system.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=57299.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=57299.0)
About disconnecting the PCV system
This topic has been covered in many places (not just this forum), and people have different opinion.
I will come back later and explain about mine ( I will have to go to work, don't have enough time right now).
For now, I leave you something to read.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/breather.php (http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/breather.php)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=2469.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=2469.0)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=49770.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=49770.0)
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/431857-importance-crankcase-breather.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/431857-importance-crankcase-breather.html)
@S21: hey, thanks for that! I'll shove it all on the tablet and make it the mandatory bathroom read for the next couple days :-D
How satisfied were you with the tuner you used in San Rafael? I'm down in Socal right now but may get moved to bay area next month for work...
(btw, that's quite a shopping list you got there - wonder if I could just get away with a Spark midpipe and a cored stock exhaust?)
I didn't see it mentioned, but my bike has pretty much all of these mods done, but it was still very difficult to get a smooth off idle throttle, and it made me look pretty foolish everywhere I went in town.
It's not a cure-all, but it did definitely help in my case. I picked up what's called a "throttle tamer" which basally gives you more throttle play from fully closed to about halfway open. I'm now able to roll on MUCH easier and smoother, especially mid-corner where it's pretty dang important. It simply replaces your stock throttle tube.
Here's the one I grabbed: http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/g2-throttle-tamer-ducati (http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/g2-throttle-tamer-ducati)
Can't hurt to throw one on along with the other stuff mentioned here.
whoof... all these things on the shopping list. Makes me think I should actually stop slumming around and get a job or something.
Quotewonder if I could just get away with a Spark midpipe and a cored stock exhaust?
Yes, I thinks so.
My comment about “get full system, NOT slip on†meant that you will have to ditch that udder.
So, loosing the udder by Spark mid pipe and coreing stock S4R exhaust should work.
(However, coring the stock muffler is WAY more work than simply installing the full system exhaust kit. As long as you are OK with it, yeah, that's fine.)
About Factory Pro ...
Do you remember the days of “Dinojet jet kit stage 1, 2, 3†? Back then, there was also “Factory Pro jet kit†.
Yes, those are the same people.
The first time I used their service was back in the mid 90s, ...in the sea of CBR600F2 and F3, I brought my 1982 CB900F with Vance&Hinse 4 into 1 megaphone into their work shop. And I talked to Marc (that's his hand writing on the print out), explaining what I want(ed) to do with that dinosaur.
I've always been happy with their work. One thing I should mention is that not all “Dyno†are the same, and not all “Dyno tuners†offer the same level of work.
(Some Dyno, such as Dynojet, are known to inflate HP numbers ... to make the customers happy.
Some Dyno tuners tuning work are actually limited to “auto-linked†“tune to A/F ratio†kind of work only.)
Exhaust system + dyno tuning cost, but you need to do them all at the same time. (You can do air box mod by yourself.)
As for the throttle tamer, I'd say NEGATIVE. Why?
It's an eccentric throttle cam. It'll give you non-linear throttle response. (It makes throttle unresponsive in the initial stage of the throttle opening, and progressively becomes quick throttle as you turn the throttle more.)
Who the hell in their right mind want something like that on the sport bike? It is a device that designed to “mask†the problem(unskilled rider, ill-tuned motorcycle, combination of both), or fool the beginner rider.
Ask the previous owner of your 996. If he would ever consider to install such things on his bike.
(Eccentric throttle cam will force you to be ham-fisted throttle wrencher at throttle opening 0-40%. Very bad habit.)
EDIT : I was under the impression of that you are interest in sport riding. However, if your main thing is trotting in the congested city traffic, yeah, maybe throttle tamer is okay.
I've got the G2 throttle tube that I put on to try to deal with the abrupt off-idle response from the shitty fueling. It helped a little.
I just got back from a ride around town and the Rexxer tune and throttlebody maintenance made a HUGE difference. It's night and day. For the first time in six months of ownership I actually like it for more than its looks. There's no surging or bucking at steady throttle. The engine now does exactly what the throttle's asking it to do, no hesitation. Low speed maneuverability is massively improved because going from completely closed throttle to just a little throttle is smooth and uneventful. I'm going to swap the stock tube back on to see how that feels, but I have a hunch I'll end up with the G2 again.
You shouldn't need to do *anything* to get a bike that's enjoyable to ride, but most manufacturers seem to be making a hash of modern FI bikes. But, the $450 I spent is the way it should have run from the factory. You can go crazy with an aftermarket exhaust, but you absolutely do not need to spend another two grand on top of the tune to make it rideable. I think gains from hacking up the airbox are limited, and that's backed up by David at Rexxer.
I just remembered one important thing about keeping the stock exhaust, if possible.
With most aftermarket exhaust system (ARROW, Termignoni , for example), you will have to remove the silencer portion, in order to remove the rear wheel.
Rear brake 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSlpToqxNco#)
This may or may not be your concern, depending how much work you do by yourself, or how much free time you have.
Still, I though this should be mentioned. something you would like to know before making a decision, whether to purchase a set of full exhaust system or to core stock muffler.
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on June 05, 2016, 02:22:21 AM
As for the throttle tamer, I'd say NEGATIVE. Why?
It's an eccentric throttle cam. It'll give you non-linear throttle response. (It makes throttle unresponsive in the initial stage of the throttle opening, and progressively becomes quick throttle as you turn the throttle more.)
Who the hell in their right mind want something like that on the sport bike? It is a device that designed to “mask†the problem(unskilled rider, ill-tuned motorcycle, combination of both), or fool the beginner rider.
Ask the previous owner of your 996. If he would ever consider to install such things on his bike.
(Eccentric throttle cam will force you to be ham-fisted throttle wrencher at throttle opening 0-40%. Very bad habit.)
EDIT : I was under the impression of that you are interest in sport riding. However, if your main thing is trotting in the congested city traffic, yeah, maybe throttle tamer is okay.
Well, for my riding style, it works for me. It gives me better modulation of the throttle, and I know how to give it the beans if I need to. It honestly doesn't make it as un-responsive as you think. Compared to the stock throttle tube, there's not THAT much of a difference where the cable rides, but it is enough to help with off idle abruptness. If I was on a track, yeah I might not run it since I'm probably going WOT quite a bit and a slightly more responsive throttle would be beneficial. But on the sweeping country roads out here, I prefer it.
But to each their own. This is my first Ducati after my Thruxton, so that's what I'm accustomed to for throttle response, and even those are pretty snatchy until you perform the needed mods to remedy it.
http://www.electraeon.com/throttlecam.html (http://www.electraeon.com/throttlecam.html)
Hey, thanks for the reply - I do remember those dynojet kits, I put one on my first gen SV back in '03! Never rode up to Factory Pro, though... it's funny, I was living in Redwood City but for some reason it felt like it would take DAYS to ride there.
The only reason I'd think about coring the stocks vs different cans is I just think they look better - so much that I'd be willing to go to the effort to chop 'em up. That being said, the udder has to go!
The S4R will be a fun bike, but more of a cruise-around thing - 996 will be track days and the occasional canyon run (if I can find a good tow setup that is). Willing to try the throttle tamer, but probably last (definitely want the remap + exhaust goodies before that)
PS: I have two different scales of the S.21 in storage!
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on June 05, 2016, 02:22:21 AM
Yes, I thinks so.
My comment about “get full system, NOT slip on†meant that you will have to ditch that udder.
So, loosing the udder by Spark mid pipe and coreing stock S4R exhaust should work.
(However, coring the stock muffler is WAY more work than simply installing the full system exhaust kit. As long as you are OK with it, yeah, that's fine.)
EDIT : I was under the impression of that you are interest in sport riding. However, if your main thing is trotting in the congested city traffic, yeah, maybe throttle tamer is okay.
Quote from: blalor on June 05, 2016, 10:12:58 AM
I just got back from a ride around town and the Rexxer tune and throttlebody maintenance made a HUGE difference. It's night and day. For the first time in six months of ownership I actually like it for more than its looks. There's no surging or bucking at steady throttle. The engine now does exactly what the throttle's asking it to do, no hesitation. Low speed maneuverability is massively improved because going from completely closed throttle to just a little throttle is smooth and uneventful. I'm going to swap the stock tube back on to see how that feels, but I have a hunch I'll end up with the G2 again.
You shouldn't need to do *anything* to get a bike that's enjoyable to ride, but most manufacturers seem to be making a hash of modern FI bikes. But, the $450 I spent is the way it should have run from the factory. You can go crazy with an aftermarket exhaust, but you absolutely do not need to spend another two grand on top of the tune to make it rideable. I think gains from hacking up the airbox are limited, and that's backed up by David at Rexxer.
This sounds great! I'd say that was $450 really well spent - it is sad that we have to futz around so much to make a stock bike work like it should, but if it gives me the warm buttery feel that I get from the tuned 996 I'll be a happy camper.
It's not about WOT all the time.
You should look at the link page that Kopf posted.
The way I talk about throttle tamer may sound a little too harsh. Well, it's because I personally feel like this kind of pats ( mod) is an insult to the Bologna's engineers. (It's like trying to put a dink holder and soft ride suspension and plushy, couch like luxury seat on Lancia Stratos.)
They put that quick action throttle on their bikes for a good reason.
One of the beauty about Ducati's cornering is, that you can use throttle to “change the bike's direction†quickly.
If you ride tight, twisty road often, and know how to use throttle, instead of using massive lean angle, you'd never consider non-linear throttle cam such as throttle tamer.
QuotePS: I have two different scales of the S.21 in storage!
COOL !
For those who didn't get it ...
S21 Folgore
(http://img.shop-pro.jp/PA01001/403/product/73531.jpg)
(http://www.totoroclub.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/savoia-title.jpg)
Ride by wire throttles are not linear. The throttle tamer makes it easier to control the throttle but it is not a big change.
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on June 05, 2016, 11:27:35 AM
I just remembered one important thing about keeping the stock exhaust, if possible.
With most aftermarket exhaust system (ARROW, Termignoni , for example), you will have to remove the silencer portion, in order to remove the rear wheel.
The last time I had the wheel off I pulled the stock cans as well - can y'all get the wheel off without pulling them? It seemed pretty tight (and I was doing a major cleaning) so off they went...
With ARROW system, you will have to remove the silencers in order to take the rear wheel off.
(If you force it, you probably can take the wheel off. But, most probably either you will scratch the rim (with silencer stay) or will cause the exhaust leak at the joint(s) (if you force enough not to scratch the rim) later on.
Looking at the photo, Termignoni are the same way.
I *though* the wheel would clear the stock silencer set up, but can't remember for sure...
Stock (it's S2R, but silencer / rear wheel part is the same)
(http://members.shaw.ca/mlario/Ducati/s2r-1000-0005.JPG)
ARROW
(http://www.2040-motos.com/_content/cars/images/49/47749/001.jpg)
Termi
(http://www.ducati.org/forums/attachments/sale-wanted/48470d1313106196-s4rt-s4rs-full-termignoni-system-whiterssss.jpg)
This, the wheel will clear, for sure...
ZARD
(http://www.alienmoto.se/contents/media/monsters4r1_000.jpg)
I found the video I made ...(posted 2010 !)
ARROW ! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2eJWsk5m_s#)
nice vid! I've heard folks saying you don't need to take off the stock cans... sure does feel clumsy though. I'll give it another whirl just for kicks, though :-)