Should I use 87 octane in my S2R???
No, the book says 95, so you have to use 95.
Do we get to redo all the old post? ;D
LA
I don't know how to response...everyone's got low post score so I cannot tell if this is sarcastic....
Ah screw it, I'm going to chomp...
2 School of thought:
1) lowest possible without engine pinging...typically ~87
2) go by the manual (you have to do the RON MON conversion thing), but loosely translates to ~91
I've used 87 and have had no ptoblems with it. I's currently using 89 to split the middle.
Euro 95 (as in The Book) = 91 US.
89 is pretty damn close and should be fine.
I personally use "Regular" on my monster and "Premium" in the 748...
"regular" with no problems so far
I've been using 87 and didn't notice any pinging. But I read somewhere on another forum that a rider was getting some knock.
I think I'm getting a little knock under hard acceleration though. I'm going to try a tank of 91 and see how she runs.
you want to ideally use the lowest octane fuel you can becasue it will burn the best.
I use to use 91, ~25mpg then 89 ~27mpg, now im on 87 ~33mpg. And i also started to shut my engine off at lights ( i take my route pretty regularly, so i know which lights take forever) and my in city mpg (NYC dead bumper to bumper traffic) shot up to 44mpg. IN CITY!
This thread really should be a poll...
I vote for 87 octane. Only prissy little girls use premium.
87 for me, no problems on my 695.
87-89, depending on my mood. Or my shirt. Which sometimes dictates my mood.
[cheeky]
A close monster buddy of mine who owns the brown (rust patina) M900 that was at Stewart's open house has only used 87 it's whole life and it's pushing 84k (ya that's right 84,000 mi.) and it runs great and has never had any problems.
Valve contamination buildup is more prevalent w/higher octane fuels, but my bike does ping a little w/87.....
-I find 89 to be a happy medium.... :)
I'll give 89 a shot and see if it makes any difference. I might just be hearing normal noise under hard acceleration.
no issues on my s2r for the last 11k with 87 octane
no issues with my old m800 --16k --87 octane
Quote from: MostroS2R on May 08, 2008, 06:32:32 AM
I'll give 89 a shot and see if it makes any difference. I might just be hearing normal noise under hard acceleration.
I don't know if you're running an open airbox or not, but if so, the intake sound of air being sucked into the velocity stacks could very well be mistaken for knocking to an untrained ear.....Under hard acceleration, my open airbox is loud as hell.... :e:v
unfortunately, most people wouldn't know they are having problems with their engine due to octane unless the crankshaft blew up on them.
mileage is a function of a lot of things and unless you can duplicate the EXACT same conditions (speed, temp, load, compression ratio, etc) comparisons between tankfuls of X octane are nearly useless.
not to mention that gas from different suppliers can have a variety of differences in your engine. Chris at cycleworks has pointed this out -- you need to test X octane from several suppliers to get an idea which formulation is best -- which matters more if you have a hicomp engine though -- the stock desmodue is very forgiving.
i used to ride up to albany and regardless of the type of gas I used, I would always get about 45mpg. fill it up with 87, or fill it up with 93. and that is riding at about 80 the whole way up I87 from NYC.
however, the tailpipes were noticeably more sooty from the 93, but acceleration and cruising was the same (or very close)
and the temp gage noted that the engine was running hotter with the 87 -- about 10 degrees, and this was on days with the same temp (or within 2-3 degrees) in the late spring (so low 70s)
there is a reason the factory specifies 95 RON (euro), because they designed the engine. They don't make any money off your gas usage and the engine isn't going to blow from putting in higher octane than necessary.
it really is best to follow the manual for the most part.
I use 89, or I mix 87 and 93 50:50 when i am feeling anal (gives you 90 RM2 and it is about a nickel/gallon cheaper to do) Engine seems to run a bit cooler than 87 and pipes are not as sooty.
To check soot, use a shop towel and really wipe out the tail pipes so you can see metal. you can't measure the actual soot, so you measure the buildup after a number of days. it is very ad-hoc so you need to make sure your driving is the same for those days.
manual says use full synth 4T oil, are you going to use cheapo store brand dino oil too?
This also depends on the compression ratio the engine is running. As well as induction method (NA, Turbo, supercharger). For the OP's bike, 87 may work fine, but not so well in my S4RS. Bike lacks power, runs hotter and knocks when it is warmer out (even with a 13:1 a/f ratio). I can get away with 89 but when you are smackin it hard with a higher compression engine I would rather have the "margin of safety" against knocking that 91 gives me.
What??!! I can't hear you over my really loud airbox!! ;:|
Use 87 or 89, but not 91. If your anal/synthetic oil guy use 89. If your car oil in motorcycle guy use 87....Or you could use both "depending on your mood". wt:
Quote from: ducatizzy on May 08, 2008, 06:55:19 AM
there is a reason the factory specifies 95 RON (euro), because they designed the engine. They don't make any money off your gas usage and the engine isn't going to blow from putting in higher octane than necessary.
it really is best to follow the manual for the most part.
Well the manual states the same octane for the 9:1 compression desmodue and the 12.5:1 compression evo motor. So, I don't think they put much thought into it other than figuring if they err'd on the side of caution, they would be less likely to be replacing engines under warranty.
I ran 87 octane exclusively in my S4R and after tearing the engine down (40K miles) for high compression pistons, there were no signs of detonation.
Quote from: silentbob on May 08, 2008, 01:27:30 PM
Well the manual states the same octane for the 9:1 compression desmodue and the 12.5:1 compression evo motor. So, I don't think they put much thought into it other than figuring if they err'd on the side of caution, they would be less likely to be replacing engines under warranty.
I ran 87 octane exclusively in my S4R and after tearing the engine down (40K miles) for high compression pistons, there were no signs of detonation.
also depends on how you ride. people who are harder on the throttle will benefit more from the higher octane and people who are softer on it, perhaps like you, can get away with it.
same thing with old VW engines. we used to make them right at about 7:1 compression by flycutting and shimming the heads. anything more than about 7.5:1 and we needed higher octane, unless it was just a daily driver that wasn't run too hard.
my whole point was that there are a lot of variables which affect combustion beyond compression and temp and barometric pressure and humidity and blowby etc etc etc etc.
if you put a water mister on you intake, you could even get the octane further down if you like. i have that on my volvo s70R. difference is about 8 hp overall.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on May 08, 2008, 03:45:57 PM
also depends on how you ride. people who are harder on the throttle will benefit more from the higher octane and people who are softer on it, perhaps like you, can get away with it.
snip
Just from my limited exposure, Silent Bob isn't a "soft on the throttle" kinda guy ;)
Quote from: bozcorob on May 08, 2008, 05:19:48 PM
Just from my limited exposure, Silent Bob isn't a "soft on the throttle" kinda guy ;)
it's all relative, that was my point.
Point taken - just f'n around with you ;D
Way to many variables involved for there to be a definetive answer
You can't just go by the static or mechanical compression ratio. The actual dynamic compression ratio can be vastly different due to cam timing. When you see a mildly tuned engine with a low compression ratio, it's because that with a milder cam(earlier intake closing) the actual dynamic compression ratio is higher than it would be with a high rpm cam with late intake closing.
Bruce told me to use 87...unless I wanted to waste money.
this thread should be locked
Quote from: ducpainter on July 25, 2009, 03:39:13 AM
Bruce told me to use 87...unless I wanted to waste money.
Or weasel piss is available ;D My bike loves 87 [thumbsup]
Glad I found this as I've been putting in 93 in my new 696. Guess I'll try using 89 and see how that goes. Would love to go down to using 87 to save money if no problems.
Quotethere is a reason the factory specifies 95 RON (euro), because they designed the engine.
Mostly what you said make sense. But I personally am kind of a doubting Thomas when it comes to things that Ducati says. They may have designed the engine but they got their initial spec for the belt tightening frequency wrong with the result of numerous too-tight belts and failures. Don't know if they still do, but Ducati used to also say "Use only Shell Ultra" oil which isn't even available in many of their market areas, including the US. Also, there is more or less a consensus that Ducati's engine break-in procedure is not technically very good.
So, all I really know is that I use 87 and my bike runs fine.
my bike didn't seem to run very well on 87, so I switched to 89 and it seemed smoother on throttle. (2004 620)
/shrug seat of pants testing of course.
Quote from: Privateer on July 25, 2009, 04:17:11 PM
my bike didn't seem to run very well on 87, so I switched to 89 and it seemed smoother on throttle. (2004 620)
/shrug seat of pants testing of course.
Since your bike runs a higher compression ratio than most Duc 2 valvers and there are variance in tolerances from engine to engine you could be correct.
I heard if I put acetone in my gas I can get a lot better mileage. Anyone know about this?
(Yes I am just make the beast with two backsing with everyone).
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 25, 2009, 08:23:13 PM
I heard if I put acetone in my gas I can get a lot better mileage. Anyone know about this?
(Yes I am just make the beast with two backsing with everyone).
Yep, extra handy if your doin' your nails on the freeway, you can just dip a cotton ball in the tank and use it to wipe off any smudges.
Quote from: Langanobob on July 25, 2009, 11:31:12 AM
Mostly what you said make sense. But I personally am kind of a doubting Thomas when it comes to things that Ducati says. They may have designed the engine but ...
+1 They don't even know enough about the engine to list the right size spark plug for my bike in the service manual. '07 S4RS runs great on 89.
It seems to me that getting regular over premium is only saving like 40 to 50 cents a gallon. So at the max if you fill up when the light comes on we are talking about a dollar fifty a tank. I'm sure the bikes will run 50,000 miles on low grade gas.
But you own a ducati, you already bought a bike that costs more than other bikes with the same level of performance. I feel like you should just put good gas in it and enjoy!
Quote from: K3V1N on July 27, 2009, 09:50:53 AM
It seems to me that getting regular over premium is only saving like 40 to 50 cents a gallon. So at the max if you fill up when the light comes on we are talking about a dollar fifty a tank. I'm sure the bikes will run 50,000 miles on low grade gas.
But you own a ducati, you already bought a bike that costs more than other bikes with the same level of performance. I feel like you should just put good gas in it and enjoy!
I agree with you on the price difference.
However, higher octane does not automatically equal better gas. It depends on the engine charateristics.
meh, i just add about half a liter of toluene to my gas tank when i fill up. renders about 120 octane using 87 gas... of course, my exhaust is basically The Transparent Black Death now.
Quote from: K3V1N on July 27, 2009, 09:50:53 AM
But you own a ducati, you already bought a bike that costs more than other bikes with the same level of performance. I feel like you should just put good gas in it and enjoy!
Good gas is whatever the engine requires. Higher octane is in no way necessarily better.
I agree with you, but I haven't seen any dyno testing or other real results that lead me to believe that the manuals instruction to use premium fuel is wrong and that the ecu is really tuned for 87. Also that doesn't sound very Italian to me. [laugh]
Like I said I think our bikes will run fine on 87 but I feel if the manual says premium it was probably tuned for that octane. I could be wrong though. I don't worry about it much I just put it the best the station has, the bike runs great and I ride it as much as a possibly can.
Ether way just get gas in the bikes and ride them
Quote from: MrIncredible on July 27, 2009, 11:48:30 AM
Good gas is whatever the engine requires. Higher octane is in no way necessarily better.
What if you want to start your own carbon factory?
Quote from: K3V1N on July 27, 2009, 12:15:01 PM
I agree with you, but I haven't seen any dyno testing or other real results that lead me to believe that the manuals instruction to use premium fuel is wrong and that the ecu is really tuned for 87. Also that doesn't sound very Italian to me. [laugh]
Like I said I think our bikes will run fine on 87 but I feel if the manual says premium it was probably tuned for that octane. I could be wrong though. I don't worry about it much I just put it the best the station has, the bike runs great and I ride it as much as a possibly can.
Ether way just get gas in the bikes and ride them
Bruce Meyers did dyno runs with a superbike and found a slight horsepower loss with premium. Your bike will also suffer carbon build up. If it don't ping on 87, use it. We don't use RON ratings in the US, we use AKI, which is an average of RON+MON.
The internet is amazing. I reply to a post during lunch and BAM someone replies with some information that changes my view on a topic. I did some surfing and found posts from other forums and sources with the same octane questions.
The only issue I still see would be if a bike was not tuned right and there was some type of detonation issues after switching to low octane. But from what I have read I will be trying 87 in my stock Monster.
I found this that goes along with what you are saying.
Hmm... while I can't argue with some of your arguments, I first started running 87 in my tank as per recommendations of Bruce C. Meyers, the very same man for which BCM Ducati is named... and someone who has a *wee* bit of experience with Ducatis.
They did significant testing at one point, I believe with a 996 and single injector setup that showed around 3 more peak HP while running 87 octane.
They also have recommended over the years to several customers to run 87 octane, as it tends to leave less carbon build up on the valves as it burns quicker, and cleaner. Now I am not employed by, nor do I speak for BCM or Bruce, but just trying my best to pass along some helpful info as octane use seems to be a hot topic. Also bear in mind, that European gas has octane ratings like ours, but the octane rating is calculated very differently. Generally speaking, an 87 US octane is about equivalent to a 91 european octane, which is what Ducati recommends for use in their bikes. For more on octane ratings and how they are calculated, here is a useful link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating)
Furthermore, with the addition of 10% ethanol into US gasoline, the overall combustion temperature rises by a small amount. Some of you may notice your bike consistently running a few degrees hotter than you remembered, this is why. The net effect of adding ethanol into the mix, further boosts the qualities behind which octane ratings are measured.
Granted the 996 has a 11.5:1 compression ratio while the 848 is 12:1... bust just as an example I ran my 748, 853cc kitted race bike with high comp pistons and the heads ported and valve guides worked on 87 pump gas for all 3 seasons in which I raced it.
It made 112 RWHP, once as high as 116 RWHP before the mapping was smoothed out for better driveability... again, this was on 87 pump gas.
So I'm not sure if it's "moronic" to suggest to run lower octane gas, but if you do... I suggest buying it at Shell, Mobil or similar and not at "Joe Schmoe's Gas Station."
As a rule of thumb, you want to run the lowest octane possible without detonation problems, so your results may vary.
Thanks for your reply howie!
I really don't know, I've filled the tank with 91 octane, here we only have 91 and 95 available; and my bike wont react as fast and it'll sputter all the way to the cleaners...
So, I only use 95 oct and from time to time a little avgas to 'clean' the valves.
Quote from: M620D on October 13, 2009, 06:59:49 PM
I really don't know, I've filled the tank with 91 octane, here we only have 91 and 95 available; and my bike wont react as fast and it'll sputter all the way to the cleaners...
So, I only use 95 oct and from time to time a little avgas to 'clean' the valves.
The USA uses it's own system for measuring octane. I assume you use RON (research octane number), the same as the Ducati manual. We use an AKI number, which is (RON + MON)/2.
MON is Manufacturer's Octane Number, and is notably lower than RON.
Higher octane will not "clean the valves". Additives in fuel do that. The purpose of octane is to prevent engine knock (detonation).
I run 87 in my multi with stock compression per BCM's & Bruce's recommendation. Never had an issue. I run high test in the monster due to the high compression pistons. FWIW, with an air cooled engine, if you have spark knock issues you will hear it. It's not very hard to find. When I bought my monster it had JE high comps & I was unaware so I was running 87 and it didn't like it.. [evil]
Quote from: howie on October 13, 2009, 07:51:17 PM
The USA uses it's own system for measuring octane. I assume you use RON (research octane number), the same as the Ducati manual. We use an AKI number, which is (RON + MON)/2.
MON is Manufacturer's Octane Number, and is notably lower than RON.
Higher octane will not "clean the valves". Additives in fuel do that. The purpose of octane is to prevent engine knock (detonation).
Howie,
We use the same method as in the US, and about 'cleaning the valves', that was just a saying... I know that in order to do that, I need to add additives...but the one and only time I used avgas, my Monster 620 was hauling behind...
Quote from: M620D on October 14, 2009, 05:18:49 PM
Howie,
We use the same method as in the US, and about 'cleaning the valves', that was just a saying... I know that in order to do that, I need to add additives...but the one and only time I used avgas, my Monster 620 was hauling behind...
Yeah, in many of the Caribbean and Central/South American countries they use (M+R)/2 but the lowest octane available is 91 or 92. In Anguilla, they only have 95 RM2 octane for all gas. Cheaper to ship only one kind.
Quote from: M620D on October 14, 2009, 05:18:49 PM
Howie,
We use the same method as in the US, and about 'cleaning the valves', that was just a saying... I know that in order to do that, I need to add additives...but the one and only time I used avgas, my Monster 620 was hauling behind...
In that case, avoid 95. It will cause carbon build up.
Does your gas have ethanol in it?
Generally, low octane fuel from a manufacturer has the same detergents as higher octane fuel from that same manufacturer. You can buy a bottle of Techron at many parts stores and from what I've read, that's worth doing to clean things out. Like Howie said, running a higher octane than you need is wasting money and can cause deposits. AV gas is higher octane, but it's also meant to run at a constant relatively low RPM and high altitude/ thinner and colder air. It's not recommended for use in your bike.
Quote from: M620D on October 14, 2009, 05:18:49 PM
Howie,
We use the same method as in the US, and about 'cleaning the valves', that was just a saying... I know that in order to do that, I need to add additives...but the one and only time I used avgas, my Monster 620 was hauling behind...
wait,, what kind of avgas? you put leaded gas in your tank, i wonder if that was part of it...
wait, what kind of oil are you guys mixing with your gas?
Any gas is good as long as you add 8 oz of Brawndo.
Quote from: ato memphis on October 19, 2009, 09:08:43 AM
wait, what kind of oil are you guys mixing with your gas?
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:4-8IVqJa4EOooM:http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31PRZ3DE47L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Quote from: herm on October 19, 2009, 03:17:15 PM
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:4-8IVqJa4EOooM:http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31PRZ3DE47L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Is that Stihl approved?
Quote from: ducpainter on October 19, 2009, 05:30:31 PM
Is that Stihl approved?
... ;) getting back on topic (i,snt as fun ... but)
Similar to an old post the i reserected a couple of times; is it time to update?
I'm still experimenting; I use 89 regularly; 91 and occasionally 87 ... 89 seems to be the happy medium ...
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1913.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1913.0)
Cheers Ducid [moto]
Quote from: howie on October 14, 2009, 06:56:05 PM
In that case, avoid 95. It will cause carbon build up.
Does your gas have ethanol in it?
No our gas still has no ethanol, but why stop using 95? My bike runs much much better and I get better gas milage, 85km/g vs 45km/g[55mpg vs 25mpg].
Dan, ducatiz, I only used about 1/2 gallon of avgas and 2 of 95 oct, plus, it was a gift[the avgas].
My manual says '95 oct minimun'. Or should I mix 1/2 & 1/2 to obtain 93 oct?
I think the 95 octane in the manual is the RON number. Depending on where you are, that could be 89 at the pump. I run 87 fine in my M900.
Quote from: M620D on October 20, 2009, 04:45:33 PM
No our gas still has no ethanol, but why stop using 95? My bike runs much much better and I get better gas milage, 85km/g vs 45km/g[55mpg vs 25mpg].
Dan, ducatiz, I only used about 1/2 gallon of avgas and 2 of 95 oct, plus, it was a gift[the avgas].
My manual says '95 oct minimun'. Or should I mix 1/2 & 1/2 to obtain 93 oct?
just a dirty exhaust AFAIK
I actually did back to back dyno testing with 91 and 89 in my 696.....
When we were developing the exhaust we were using 2 696's to get a baseline. My friends bike on 89 made 2 more HP than mine on 91. I was pissed! So we drained the tank put in 89. Next day dyno again with 89 in my bike. Air temp and density was really really close to the previous day....poof! 2 more HP....Not only that but I have been consistently pulling 30 more miles out of the tank before the light comes on...So now I guess I'll try 87 on the dyno....
Quote from: ryanracer on October 22, 2009, 10:26:51 PM
I actually did back to back dyno testing with 91 and 89 in my 696.....
When we were developing the exhaust we were using 2 696's to get a baseline. My friends bike on 89 made 2 more HP than mine on 91. I was pissed! So we drained the tank put in 89. Next day dyno again with 89 in my bike. Air temp and density was really really close to the previous day....poof! 2 more HP....Not only that but I have been consistently pulling 30 more miles out of the tank before the light comes on...So now I guess I'll try 87 on the dyno....
well shit, put some 87 in a gas can and let it sit for a few months and then try it... :D
Quotewell shit, put some 87 in a gas can and let it sit for a few months and then try it... Cheesy
I have an old 1941 CCKW military 6 by 6 with a 270 CID GMC 6 in it. I hardly drive it and the gas in the thing has been in it for years and each spring it still starts right up. The compression ratio is, and I'm not making this up, 4.6 to one and redline is 2700 RPM.
Quote from: Langanobob on October 23, 2009, 06:13:18 AM
I have an old 1941 CCKW military 6 by 6 with a 270 CID GMC 6 in it. I hardly drive it and the gas in the thing has been in it for years and each spring it still starts right up. The compression ratio is, and I'm not making this up, 4.6 to one and redline is 2700 RPM.
yeah, but it has 12,000,000 ft/lbs of torque
sweet
(http://www.ianhardy.net/gallery/main.php/d/15050-2/CRW_3516.jpg)
Quote from: Langanobob on October 23, 2009, 06:13:18 AM
I have an old 1941 CCKW military 6 by 6 with a 270 CID GMC 6 in it. I hardly drive it and the gas in the thing has been in it for years and each spring it still starts right up. The compression ratio is, and I'm not making this up, 4.6 to one and redline is 2700 RPM.
Mine was a multifuel and it burns 87 octane, diesel, jet fuel, kerosene, used motor oil, but not avgas.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/silentbob_pics/P8148250.jpg)
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/silentbob_pics/P8148257.jpg)
A guy who no longer lurks on these boards builds & races Monsters. He was a Master Mechanic at Honda (the cars, not the bikes). He purpose-built a M620 and bored it to 800 cc's, just to win races. He runs (ran. I haven't spoken to him in a few years) 87 in his street bikes and his fancy-schmancy race-prepped bike gets Arco 89.
Jay at ECS had a conversation with me just a few months ago. He TOLD me to run 87. It wasn't a discussion.
-Dan
Quote from: Langanobob on October 23, 2009, 06:13:18 AM
I have an old 1941 CCKW military 6 by 6 with a 270 CID GMC 6 in it. I hardly drive it and the gas in the thing has been in it for years and each spring it still starts right up. The compression ratio is, and I'm not making this up, 4.6 to one and redline is 2700 RPM.
Maybe because you never ran out and refilled it with wonderful, reformulated gasahol. That thing must be great fun!
FWIW I have always run 98 on advice from my Duc mechanic.
OK guys, so now I'm getting canne because of my use of avgas once? The manual says '95 oct' RON. I either can asume:1. Ducati made a typo or 2. they ment 91 oct MOZ...
PM me if you can explain why:1. my seat of the pants dyno says that with 95 oct my bike runs better and is more efficient and 2. how can this octane build deposits?
Seat Dyno is easy, its the placebo effect. If you are paying more for something, you should be able to feel a benefit. That alone sells more "performance" parts than anything else I believe.
Quote from: ato memphis on October 25, 2009, 07:30:07 AM
Seat Dyno is easy, its the placebo effect. If you are paying more for something, you should be able to feel a benefit. That alone sells more "performance" parts than anything else I believe.
ato,
better milage and no sputtering and/or hesitation when using 'our 95 oct' instead of 'our 91 oct'; what better benefits?
I don't think gas is causing sputtering or hesitation, but rather you notice it when you use the lower octane.
Gas mileage should work conversely. The big myth behind octanes is that higher octanes release more power - thus requiring less gasoline to produce the same amount of work. Car & Driver, and several other publications have tackled this, showing that putting too high an octane can actually slightly hurt fuel efficiency.
Lower octane fuels are 'more combustible'. They require less energy input to go boom. Higher octane fuels are required only when compression ratio has caused pressure levels to reach the point that cause the lower octane fuel to prematurely ignite (everyone knows, blowin' it prematurely is no fun). That's engine knocking, dieseling, pinging, etc etc.
So in other words, start using '91 oct' when I get it back together? No additives? No mixing up with avagas or VP fuel? Just plain old 'our 91 oct'?
I don't know how your gas is measured in Panama. If you were in Panama City, FL, I'd tell you to get 87 in a stock 620, 89 on a crazy-hot day.
(If you increase the octane, it eliminates chances of knocking, as noted before, and knocking is more likely to occur when its hot as balls outside)
Quote from: ato memphis on October 26, 2009, 04:03:29 PM
I don't know how your gas is measured in Panama. If you were in Panama City, FL, I'd tell you to get 87 in a stock 620, 89 on a crazy-hot day.
Temps here are more or less like Miami's between 85~95 during the day and 70~85 at night plus humidity hovering around 90%.
Gas is measured the same method as in the USA. So, 91?
With regular compression, I'd say 89 for day time riding where you might be in stop and go traffic. But therein is the debate. I run 87 in my Monster with ... no issues. Runs great, good gas mileage (though I run it slightly rich since I rode it to Vegas and was worried about the heat and traffic).
The new 696 and its head design may operate differently, and would require something higher, no FHE.
We only have available 91 and 95 oct...
which is why I think the measurement for octane is different where you are than it is here. RON (most common), or MON, or what we have in the US and Canada: AKI {which is the average of RON and MON: (R+M)/2}
RON is about 8-10 higher than MON, thus AKI is about 4-5 points lower than RON. So if you have 91 and 95, you might have what we could call 87 (regular) and 91 (premium...or 'almost' premium)
Quote from: ato memphis on October 26, 2009, 04:43:05 PM
which is why I think the measurement for octane is different where you are than it is here. RON (most common), or MON, or what we have in the US and Canada: AKI {which is the average of RON and MON: (R+M)/2}
RON is about 8-10 higher than MON, thus AKI is about 4-5 points lower than RON. So if you have 91 and 95, you might have what we could call 87 (regular) and 91 (premium...or 'almost' premium)
ato,
we use the same method as in the US, R+M/2... the only 2 avalilable octanes 91 and 95...heard a rumor, 98 might be coming due to 'hi end' vehicles need for it...
That doesn't make sense to me. I'm in Dallas, pump gas doesn't go above 93/94...maybe 95 even in the part of town with all the crazy exotic cars (Highland Park 'hood). 98 wouldn't really even be considered "pump" gas, though its not race gas like Turbo Blue. To get 98, they'd have to either overhaul the stations or replace one of the tank's contents because its higher than the existing 'high grade'.
Another interesting element to add to this discussion is that most stations' only have like 2 underground tanks. "Low" grade (lowest octane) and the high grade (highest octane). Any intermediate grades is merely a combination of the two in the proper proportions.
Quote from: ato memphis on October 26, 2009, 06:53:06 PM
That doesn't make sense to me. I'm in Dallas, pump gas doesn't go above 93/94...maybe 95 even in the part of town with all the crazy exotic cars (Highland Park 'hood). 98 wouldn't really even be considered "pump" gas, though its not race gas like Turbo Blue. To get 98, they'd have to either overhaul the stations or replace one of the tank's contents because its higher than the existing 'high grade'.
bro, travel some and you'll get the idea. in south/central america they use the same octane method (R+M/2) but sell higher octane gas. we were in anguilla for the summer -- lowest octane gas they sell is 95. you get 95 or 98 and that's it -- 90% of the cars on the road there are tiny 1.0 l Daihatsus. and there it is right on the pump OCTANE METHOD (R+M)/2
i don't know if they still sell the 85 octane in Colorado, I remember it when I was in college.
different markets sell different shit.
Quote from: ato memphis on October 26, 2009, 06:53:06 PM
That doesn't make sense to me. I'm in Dallas, pump gas doesn't go above 93/94...maybe 95 even in the part of town with all the crazy exotic cars (Highland Park 'hood). 98 wouldn't really even be considered "pump" gas, though its not race gas like Turbo Blue. To get 98, they'd have to either overhaul the stations or replace one of the tank's contents because its higher than the existing 'high grade'.
Another interesting element to add to this discussion is that most stations' only have like 2 underground tanks. "Low" grade (lowest octane) and the high grade (highest octane). Any intermediate grades is merely a combination of the two in the proper proportions.
We have 98 RON at nearly all stations in Oz.
Quote from: jasaretta on October 26, 2009, 07:22:50 PM
We have 98 RON at nearly all stations in Oz.
you need to read back
RON is not how octane is measured in the USA, it is the average of the RON and MON measures, typically represented as (R+M)/2 also called AKI. (anti-knock index)
98 RON would be around 95 or so R+M/2
I've traveled throughout central america, but never bothered to stare at the gas pumps, there's lots of others things for your attention to be on!
I just didn't realize that the vehicles down south needed that high of an octane, even with the heat. Doesn't mean a 2V duc with standard compression would need that much still.
Quote from: ato memphis on October 26, 2009, 07:35:08 PM
I've traveled throughout central america, but never bothered to stare at the gas pumps, there's lots of others things for your attention to be on!
I just didn't realize that the vehicles down south needed that high of an octane, even with the heat. Doesn't mean a 2V duc with standard compression would need that much still.
when i drove straight down to panama, i noticed the gas. i took my '71 VW camper all the way from memphis to the canal and then back. the bus really loved getting some leaded gas, there was a noticeable difference.
heat is a factor affecting detonation. it is probably easier to just stock the higher stuff year round, especially as you get closer to the equator.
insult to injury? I haven't seen one pump in any of the Caribbean or central america with ethanol, lucky bastards.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 26, 2009, 07:30:37 PM
you need to read back
RON is not how octane is measured in the USA, it is the average of the RON and MON measures, typically represented as (R+M)/2 also called AKI. (anti-knock index)
98 RON would be around 95 or so R+M/2
THanks....then Downunder have 91 95 and 98 RON so whats that about 89, 91 and 95 ???
Quote from: jasaretta on October 26, 2009, 10:02:39 PM
THanks....then Downunder have 91 95 and 98 RON so whats that about 89, 91 and 95 ???
There is no exact numerical relationship, MON uses a test engine that has variable ignition timing and the engine runs at a higher speed than the engine used for RON. The fuel is also preheated. MON is actually more accurate for modern engines. Your life should be easy, since the manual says use 95 RON and that is what you got.
I have run a tank of Sunoco GT100 and the bike ran very crisp but I did notice the exhaust was very grey looking after a long ride.
Quoteinsult to injury? I haven't seen one pump in any of the Caribbean or central america with ethanol, lucky bastards.
It's coming, I've heard...Why don't you ride down now...
QuoteYour life should be easy, since the manual says use 95 RON and that is what you got.
So I'm good with what I'm filling?
ato, we good?
Yeah, but I really think you could use the lower grade. Life is really complicated when you go to the local 7-11 and there are more than 2 or 3 grades. Like 6.
Quote from: ato memphis on October 27, 2009, 04:34:41 PM
Yeah, but I really think you could use the lower grade. Life is really complicated when you go to the local 7-11 and there are more than 2 or 3 grades. Like 6.
seriously. many of the Sunocos in Jersey have 87-89-91-92-94 -- why? people are dumb. plus the "per octane" price is highest at 91 if you do the math (price per gal / octane). most cars don't need it but they feel like they are "treating" the car but not splurging... meanwhile, they over pay per gal...
be anal: fill it half way with the top octane and half with the bottom.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 27, 2009, 05:52:58 PM
<snip>
be anal: fill it half way with the top octane and half with the bottom.
or be realistic and put 87 in the damn thing and ride it.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 27, 2009, 05:58:37 PM
or be realistic and put 87 in the damn thing and ride it.
i meant on the car, should have said that.
back when gas was >$4gal it saved about 15 cents a gallon.. my vehicle required >91 and I was being cheap
Quote from: ducatiz on October 27, 2009, 05:52:58 PM
be anal: fill it half way with the top octane and half with the bottom.
that'll give me 93oct... 91 oct +95 oct =186 oct/2=93 oct...
i mean, "theoretically", plus i've got the plastic tank that only holds 2.5gals or 9.45lts of fuel; so i'd had to pump 1.25 gl[4.725lts] of 91 and 1.25[4.725lts] gl of 95...lots of thinking @ gas station...
now the question, shell advanced or texaco w/techron?
Just an aside....this morning I was with a mate who picked up his new Sports Classic....nice bike btw. His advice....only fill with 98 RON and only Mobil or BP not SHELL.
Quote from: M620D on October 29, 2009, 05:49:36 PM
that'll give me 93oct... 91 oct +95 oct =186 oct/2=93 oct...
i mean, "theoretically", plus i've got the plastic tank that only holds 2.5gals or 9.45lts of fuel; so i'd had to pump 1.25 gl[4.725lts] of 91 and 1.25[4.725lts] gl of 95...lots of thinking @ gas station...
now the question, shell advanced or texaco w/techron?
rofl, i wasn't referring to you -- i don't know what the price points on gas are near you. in the states, most places have 87, 89 and 93/94/95. the 89 is called "mid grade" and is a rip off, they mix the 87 and 93/94/95 to get 89 and then charge you extra per gallon for it.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 30, 2009, 04:52:24 AM
rofl, i wasn't referring to you -- i don't know what the price points on gas are near you. in the states, most places have 87, 89 and 93/94/95. the 89 is called "mid grade" and is a rip off, they mix the 87 and 93/94/95 to get 89 and then charge you extra per gallon for it.
95 oct $3.00/gl 91 oct $2.75/gl
Quote from: jasaretta on October 29, 2009, 06:29:42 PM
Just an aside....this morning I was with a mate who picked up his new Sports Classic....nice bike btw. His advice....only fill with 98 RON and only Mobil or BP not SHELL.
only have these options: shell. texaco, esso, delta, accel[last two local]... here, shell has worked the most efficient...uhm...
Quote from: jasaretta on October 29, 2009, 06:29:42 PM
Just an aside....this morning I was with a mate who picked up his new Sports Classic....nice bike btw. His advice....only fill with 98 RON and only Mobil or BP not SHELL.
Reasoning?
Quote from: ato memphis on October 30, 2009, 05:06:11 PM
Reasoning?
Additives in the shell fuel that can leave deposits - I will be back there tomorrow so I will ask for more detail.
Quote from: jasaretta on October 31, 2009, 03:21:07 PM
Additives in the shell fuel that can leave deposits - I will be back there tomorrow so I will ask for more detail.
So why do Ducati engineers use Shell? Why does Ducati Corse use Shell? Why does Ducati even recommends using all Shell[oils, susp fluids, brake fluids, fuel, chainlube, ...]? According to owners manual, this is.
Formulations vary widely, country to country and in the USA even region to region. Recommendations for or against any brand across the board are bunk.
Fyi the Shell Advance oil isn't even sold in the USA
Quote from: ducatiz on October 31, 2009, 03:42:09 PM
Fyi the Shell Advance oil isn't even sold in the USA
Here $24.00/liter @ dealer... will change to Repsol Full Synth 10W40
Quote from: M620D on October 31, 2009, 03:35:08 PM
So why do Ducati engineers use Shell? Why does Ducati Corse use Shell? Why does Ducati even recommends using all Shell[oils, susp fluids, brake fluids, fuel, chainlube, ...]? According to owners manual, this is.
Shell is a Ducati racing sponsor.
Out of an official Ducati service manual:
Engine oil
A good quality engine oil has special properties. Use only a highly detergent engine oil with certified SE, SF or SG or higher service ratings as marked on the container.
Quote from: jasaretta on October 31, 2009, 03:21:07 PM
Additives in the shell fuel that can leave deposits - I will be back there tomorrow so I will ask for more detail.
Here in the US, Shell is one of the few gasolines that meets "Top Tier Certification"
http://www.toptiergas.com (http://www.toptiergas.com) but, as ducatiz stated, this may not be an indicator of the product Shell is selling in Australia. Shell is also selling the gasahol (E10) we are complaining about. Avoid it!!
Quote from: M620D on October 31, 2009, 03:35:08 PM
So why do Ducati engineers use Shell? Why does Ducati Corse use Shell? Why does Ducati even recommends using all Shell[oils, susp fluids, brake fluids, fuel, chainlube, ...]? According to owners manual, this is.
$$
Quote from: howie on October 31, 2009, 06:09:02 PM
Shell is a Ducati racing sponsor.
Out of an official Ducati service manual:
Engine oil
A good quality engine oil has special properties. Use only a highly detergent engine oil with certified SE, SF or SG or higher service ratings as marked on the container.
Here in the US, Shell is one of the few gasolines that meets "Top Tier Certification"
http://www.toptiergas.com (http://www.toptiergas.com) but, as ducatiz stated, this may not be an indicator of the product Shell is selling in Australia. Shell is also selling the gasahol (E10) we are complaining about. Avoid it!!
Quote from: Triple J on October 31, 2009, 10:38:04 PM
$$
Good point triple j, howie... That's tjhe main reason behing my changing to Repsol...
Quote from: M620D on October 31, 2009, 03:35:08 PM
So why do Ducati engineers use Shell? Why does Ducati Corse use Shell? Why does Ducati even recommends using all Shell[oils, susp fluids, brake fluids, fuel, chainlube, ...]? According to owners manual, this is.
Also, Ferrarri.
Unless a Shell Employee tells me that he won't use his own product, I would listen to nobody as to which gas station is better - only that off-brand gas is taking a risk. (Kind of like, if a fast food employee told me NOT to eat the food that comes from his store, I'd listen otherwise he's just talkin' to move air).
Quote from: M620D on October 31, 2009, 03:35:08 PM
So why do Ducati engineers use Shell? Why does Ducati Corse use Shell? Why does Ducati even recommends using all Shell[oils, susp fluids, brake fluids, fuel, chainlube, ...]? According to owners manual, this is.
He did say definitely use Shell oils etc but not fuel. More tomorrow.
That's silly. They work in concert with Ferrari and even use the Ferrari's in the advertising. It works fine in those more complex motors, and it works fine in my 2 valve incredibly simple, 2 cylinder motorcycle. Its fuel. It goes boom in a cylinder from compression and a spark. So long as its not cut with a bunch of rubbish fuel at the discount fuel-center, it provides the same amount of go-fast, and the only remaining element is "what flavor detergent do you like the marketing of better?"
Quote from: ato memphis on November 01, 2009, 01:58:12 PM
and the only remaining element is "what flavor detergent do you like the marketing of better?"
when i was in college and worked at the Circle-K (the one at Highland and Southern), one of my jobs was to "stick" the gas tanks to measure levels. we had a single ruler to do it, it was 20 ft long. the first tank was with a dry stick, but the other 2 we had to use the same stick. my shift was usually 10pm -6am and it's hard to see the next wet level in the dark. boss told me to use Comet powder on the stick, then put it into the gas tank and pull it out and see how much washed off.
yep. Comet.
that helps clean the valves, right?
Quote from: ato memphis on November 01, 2009, 05:06:39 PM
that helps clean the valves, right?
actually, it settles and sediments in a float bowl and hardens. they eventually got in trouble over it and it turned out to be the dumbass who was my boss. he was let go.
but your valves would be sparkly comet clean, right?
Quote from: ato memphis on November 01, 2009, 05:19:32 PM
but your valves would be sparkly comet clean, right?
rofl, fortunately it didn't get past the carb (this was a long time ago) so it only necessitated replacing the carb. fun stuff.
Quote from: ato memphis on November 01, 2009, 04:24:09 AM
Also, Ferrarri.
Unless a Shell Employee tells me that he won't use his own product, I would listen to nobody as to which gas station is better - only that off-brand gas is taking a risk. (Kind of like, if a fast food employee told me NOT to eat the food that comes from his store, I'd listen otherwise he's just talkin' to move air).
From my understanding, most of those off-brands buy from the name brands. You just don't get the same advertising.
So...looking more at this topic. In my manual, Ducati states that 95-98 RON should be used which converts to 91-93 US. Which one am I better off running? Considering I live in hot-as-hell Miami, am I safer to run the 93 to avoid detonation? Or am I simply over thinking things and just run 91?
Run the lowest octane possible without pinging.
If it doesn't ping, it's fine.
hackers2r,
You live in Miami, I live in Panama, same situation, if you read a bit further back on the thread, everyone said to use the lower octane, which here translates to 91AKI or US...
If I use 91 oct in 95*F plus 90% humidity, the bike will sputter all the way to Borno Panigale and back... Telling you this since your weather and mine are almost the same...
If fuel light comes on, and no 95 avail, I'll only put in no more than $1 worth of 91, don't know why this happens but happens...
To the rest of the guys, somehow my bike, behaves a bit different than the other 620s, the only time a Italian tech was here, my bike was in the shop and he said 'here in Panama you can use 91 oct since is the equivalent to 95RON...' then my bike was 'tested'[as was another 620 in the shop], he was, impressed on how my bike had behaved with the 91OCT[sputterd, made noises, ...] and then how it behaved with 95OCT[as normal as is gets], he told me 'it seems you bike only want to run 95OCT so you must only use 95OCT and both heads have an "S" stamped on them, are these the 'good' heads or ....
Well, I decided to experiment yesterday. Siphoned out 2 gallons of the Shell 93 octane that was in the tank and ran it till the gas light came on. I then pumped just over 1 gallon of Shell 87 octane in and...bike is running fine so far. I've tried everything to hear something bad; 3rd gear at 30 and just layed on it, highway tests, etc. Haven't heard ANYTHING bad. Also been tried in the extreme heat of the day and also the night. I'm gonna keep running the 87 and see how it goes. One observation though is that when laying on it in 3rd at 30, it really is smoother than it was with the 93.
Been reading with great interest.
I have JE hi comp pistons in my carbed 900 Monster. I have retarded the ignition about 3-3 1/2 degrees at the flywheel pickups. I have tried 95 RON fuel with no noticeable knocking/pinging but would guess that with the standard ignition timing you will have to run 98 RON to be safe. I am not 100% secure in running 95 RON however...I am a little nervous doing this. These JE pistons were machined down a little to get the compression closer to 10.7 : 1. This and the retarded ignition could be give me the safety margin to run 95 RON. I will ask Brad Black about this next time I visit his shop.
The Bikeboy site talks about dramas with too high compression, related fuel octane requirements and ignition timing in carbed Monsters. It is for the Australian context in relation to the old carb two valvers with old style ignition. Interesting reading.
Most of my riding mates (buddies) use 98 RON citing smoother running but is this just the placebo effect?
I recently ran 95 RON and had rough running, but wasn't sure if it was just a bad batch of fuel or if some Ethanol was snuck in there affecting things in some way. I will have to run 95 RON over a longer period of time to see if this is a consistent thing.
It seems our experience in Australia is different with Shell 98 RON not having the best reputation in motorcycle use here, while in the US it's possibly one of the better fuels? This has even been mentioned in motorcycle magazine tests where the Shell 98 RON was cited as the cause of rough running, backfiring and plug fouling (Australian Motorcycle News test of a 1098).
This has been my consistent experience in four different motorcycles; a ZX6R, VFR 400, M900 and SL900. Why, I have no idea. The symptoms are like a bike running way too rich. All the bikes ate plugs (fouled) when I used the Shell 98 RON. I want to use Shell because the gas stations are everywhere, but I have to use BP (not too popular at the moment in the US!), Mobil and Caltex.
Now understand that my bad experiences are with the Shell 98 RON, so I may try the Shell 95 RON. I have used the other 98 RON fuels with no ill effects. Maybe the Shell 98 RON is an actual higher octane compared to the other brands of 98 and not completely combusting? Maybe it has a unique additive? It is all quite perplexing.
I'm starting to wonder if our Australian fuels are inferior in knock protection and we have to buy the fuels advertised as "premium" to get the same protection as regular US fuels?
I want to use the lowest octane rating I can get away with due to the aforementioned reasons in this thread. I wish I could use 89/91 RON, but I get knocking/pinging.
This forum needs a fuel expert (like George was with oil) to educate us all.
Well I just went for a ~100 mile ride and tested just about everything I could. Still no knocking/pinging. Can't believe I've been pumping 93 when I could have been running 87! Like mentioned before, I actually think the bike is running smoother at all RPM with the 87 too.
Quote from: hackers2r on June 06, 2010, 08:27:21 PM
Well I just went for a ~100 mile ride and tested just about everything I could. Still no knocking/pinging. Can't believe I've been pumping 93 when I could have been running 87! Like mentioned before, I actually think the bike is running smoother at all RPM with the 87 too.
Great!!!
Quote from: hackers2r on June 06, 2010, 08:27:21 PM
Well I just went for a ~100 mile ride and tested just about everything I could. Still no knocking/pinging. Can't believe I've been pumping 93 when I could have been running 87! Like mentioned before, I actually think the bike is running smoother at all RPM with the 87 too.
I'm envious. wish I could use that octane rating. Gas is $4-$4.50 a gallon in Oz. Higher octane even worse.
This relates to OZ users. The weather is very cold for here (4-15 deg C).
Tried Shell V Power 98 Ron fuel again. The first time any bike I have owned has run cleanly with it. It was a very cold morning and the bike ran very smoothly as if I had turned out the IMS a turn or running a little choke on a freezing morning. Did not deteriorate as the bike warmed up.
The Shell website said that the fuel was compatible with most motorcycles but to check with the manufacturer. The Shell blurb made alot out of the anti friction technology in the fuel to help reduce cylinder wall/piston ring friction. I am guessing that if you are jetted/mapped on the rich side or if you don't have a strong spark or higher compression , it may leave deposits on your plugs. The fuel is claimed by the way to clean deposits.
I believe the fuel has been improved in the last twelve months since I last tested it. I would be open to the suggestion that the burn rate has been increased while maintaining the anti knock properties, because the stuff used to foul plugs regularly. It was the smoothest running fuel I have used in cold conditions.
I will try the Shell 95 RON next.
Called Shell technical guy for customer feedback.
Explained that many riders have complained of fouled plugs and rough running when using 98 RON octane fuel.
Also told him that my bike ran well with the same fuel on a nearly zero Deg C morning recently with smooth running and the bike behaved as if I had richened the jetting up for the extremely cold weather.
I asked him if the fuel was changed since I last used it a year ago.
He said that they change the fuel for the change in seasons and also change it for the conditions in the Northern Australian states where it is much warmer year around. He also said in summer they make the fuel less volitile compared to winter.
He said that the fuel was very dense as in it behaves as if it is richer and would have worked well in the really cold conditions. He suggested that I try the 95 RON octane which I had planned to do.