Hi folks, sorry for the huge pictures. Can anyone tell me if this is a head gasket leak or is there an o-ring under that nut that has failed? These are the cylinder head bolts on an 08' S4RS. There are leaks on the vertical and horizontal cylinders. When the engine reaches full temp, around 220 degrees, I can see a small amount of what appears to be coolant bubble up right around the threads and create a small drip. The one nut has turned green. Should I just have them torqued and then re-checked? Is the head gasket a huge job or can I tackle this in the garage?
Thanks,
Andy
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/huGtqNCpPY53N5uN-pnuQxaiR0gUbB9KbTBvpiX71TbY9CUHZM5ITSNwaAUXG8jB9hhd_GERUOhtuu3knRtTQ7BC__YUekC7N9nfICdwxWfltZTo55MF6j8vQXNVsNZQEGOJq8uQ2U07Qo6VAUMaai7oS6Y-31OSfso5JTC-O4icXJZA6GYpsm4bO9R0Es-rWExxuZPaxT9HHuJtMEVh3hz_oLsqGahvfqsZWYB4VirT8ES4RK1latBfUlXFn5STFczuSkPKIVEadB4_4mpl78U_ykN9Jjy04fvq5pzfEEGSf3dVe75db8PdwqdP_Bb7hmJHLOJRM5Eb0IT9MNkKONQHKAE8RApxfjCiccg9wtENqmcAxa20OcH8L1vWLHAT73vKKmCzViQCF4TYlIvxT6Tac5Yuvg9RrCe76itqQDs6xe_N2u8YjiKI9RL8KDs24oXHeSz9B82hYsJS_jDckBY4R4uPgI0-JPsjz5lPvYlU-0KETkC5cMW5sXTnuVWyh1o1msEWXBXObbZH1e-RsP-XpXj1Gxz3I4RhR20L8i4xk4MsaBBQGGAU64cZrtsjwGu1Q_h-uQgvSpkhNRBsoDq_kp-Z_gZ2zo3O8noKP8rbZTaa=w788-h1398-no)(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HX0go19ncLb0lQ-6uxxpcN7zQGTsb4HfGpTHFRcvf7OqaSDi_0PEgCTB2bzy5iTdxSUGXGgJ7DZcxi5XAwgXLfLNWx8AqzS2St_KHKbF_s_ocPMLwo_v5Nhsnv1XI03tX8Aj9tJsdBsSaALPn_ceOdhmb6w8dta-Elv2S1OGwG9y3YwQ8mMFDEMW_ZF-tKlImVlZiAhXq9DwJNHG6q65zbJ01OpqneRhaUxaAk6q8RO3sk06-SoSu5pEWs2KlojxwFHFzdMMoOk_S_5Q6huHvQ6laWkPYXWd3nQIhKACyphCfjCGlY6VI-GuH_f1UV5UIlpK6OPwEYUrebAEmMc3JZ_cPJE52FKRQzILylCQK2FSvN4f_nCgGpHW8EGWEnJtF-nEUjCiVJ19CcQo9l5bTCCo_YisIz24YWbM2A7cW3OxD-04rusoDgqfSZqLQUEcfXi_05OAmj5K4krf1UO36Bx-7a5Ep-mWmB5VUgzBUxuHM8i5FhoEOAUui083Pl9OCEQIhPb0o00mgEy3X4ufjLHe_k5sikSMhjD1_CvqNcXNbc3Mn0N6t7qy3sRaU5K_jcXrai2D2SmmjCTCZspga5cnf-C-xJ-99qixxE_0blpj26XU=w788-h1398-no)
The pics were there before, does this link work?
Quote from: Enzoman on September 10, 2016, 10:53:53 PM
Hi folks, sorry for the huge pictures. Can anyone tell me if this is a head gasket leak or is there an o-ring under that nut that has failed? These are the cylinder head bolts on an 08' S4RS. There are leaks on the vertical and horizontal cylinders. When the engine reaches full temp, around 220 degrees, I can see a small amount of what appears to be coolant bubble up right around the threads and create a small drip. The one nut has turned green. Should I just have them torqued and then re-checked? Is the head gasket a huge job or can I tackle this in the garage?
Thanks,
Andy
(https://photos-6.dropbox.com/t/2/AABZR6uCmmpeNloBg8rdjAlmACN5LJjvrDglSW6g7rmeBw/12/159430286/jpeg/32x32/3/1473588000/0/2/20160910_142315.jpg/EIre4HkY1gwgAigC/F3HO_S27Xa06X0k6mnrKJ1NX8bGnnzQIp71ZKIVD1_s?size_mode=3&dl=0&size=2048x1536)
(https://photos-2.dropbox.com/t/2/AAC1iKZF-Io9cHdprX_G5OSwicMhINKCRfoCvftzG24-sg/12/159430286/jpeg/256x256/1/_/1/2/20160910_142330.jpg/EIre4HkY1gwgAigC/P_lqY3ew7M31c2F3_GoEXat9q0FXY9IxLjrK_26L0gA%2CoxAQ-7kIxL9wIKQbKtejiUdnCEFN7L-rrwmSL_Y09Rk?size_mode=3&size=2048x1536)
Links won't work for me.
What about that link? And this one? I been out of this for awhile. It seems posting pics is too complicated for me now lol.
https://plus.google.com/108001955614417580888/posts/RCCfnP3wv1C (https://plus.google.com/108001955614417580888/posts/RCCfnP3wv1C)
That one works!
I doubt a re-torque will work, but it's worth a try.
Head gaskets are not a huge job if you're comfortable doing 4V belts.
Pricey from Ducati. Cometic is a brand used frequently as a substitute.
So it's definately head gaskets and not some simple o-ring? This bike only has 7800 miles, is this common for the 998? Looks like I'm getting a shop manual. Do you think it's still ok to ride? I haven't seen any white smoke and the coolant level is fine.
Quote from: Enzoman on September 11, 2016, 10:42:09 AM
So it's definately head gaskets and not some simple o-ring? This bike only has 7800 miles, is this common for the 998? Looks like I'm getting a shop manual. Do you think it's still ok to ride? I haven't seen any white smoke and the coolant level is fine.
To the best of my knowledge there is no replaceable o-ring under the nut, or between the head and cylinder. It isn't necessarily a common problem, but it happens.
From the photo it looks more like a weep than a leak. You can try re torquing, you might get lucky. No guarantee how long it will stay that way. I would ride it for now.
Ok thanks guys. I'll just keep an eye on it for now. I noticed that it really only starts bubbling when it gets around 220 and the fans come on. One other question, does the ECU control the fan operation or is that done by a temp sensor wired directly to the fans? It would be nice to lower the setpoint to somewhere around 180 degrees.
Thanks
Pretty sure there's a sensor that's wired through the ecu.
You can put them on a switch with a relay to turn them on whenever you like.
Thank you Ducpainter
Hey guys, I just found this in the service manual that I downloaded. It says there is a special washer and o-ring under the castle nut. Do you think that the cylinder head stud actually goes through the water jacket and thats why the o-ring is there? It sure would be alot easier since the manual says to remove the engine to take the heads off. Any thoughts on this?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BLZROrFcUrjOupsLjitlIxs_oUWjTyglvkM4sShJYOxns5HHNBtq7_NmaNbpJ_un9ad-dY127ahuBEOUDiAk4lp6IgttFNhJqbhWa0woMV6nC-9XwLSnn5SSzDXQEsow2ui1_OnQao8pjiT-MMjG7e0d1ma_NiDks9PzJbZehnYCRXouG9gdPCaz_syoi3CJJkxSN2-6EgPTjnDLn6w0gpEy6Yrtk3kIDpOAKFa8RpbepSYaNMThFwy7-GuTJfOtWaa57HNw3GwEgRltjqrL3aDq33FnwrjpdyN-GIm0djY0F-kxpJ3iKugtDHZzAXqjsJJXVIG1EnoIxhIotekbmEMfIGrd81ajZLYXkm96sHd0BSwkDb1kWrZDIIDnQKDy4wkkwi9vAT14334-CCBPN_Uw1qBc-YLwXIeQPsoDlVB1gQhtqTWbAax8_yo9d05MKM3Gl6lh063fVsnG76ttj4sYUvJLrPewVhOoTt7C_Yw1hgLim-ZiYay34f4mEfq35XQMkageW3tl1IBIGPvKnjK2xRFI-OxdH1D18F7qFQJ7xvrw-p71kskxiHhLPIQQTYQ2lMLZ7E-AI2qBbKI3lVIbr3UUYn0nymsf0gT6_aV-4sJd=w1424-h830-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/D0iyYj1wNUvMMTJA36XOdTE5f7n_vnUCzqVqXfXaDXAY00wJN2G3tchYK8ttVDgSie4otM-MD01_iZs7ieEo0XcByGf1W0qQQ3VJ3NHHt5BdvnVNBTCwCQTja602J4FOQuFC5QBQvAh1WAMsEYiUlPtIzgKqWFnwRHSL6UCHyZnARUFNUCjy5n_loMsXGgJ5eTK918Jzbd8E75JP1nwzVH1QcVmq0Ne2kYEE-9Xsj9AHpIIrC27-PmOHr9uWx2Kb_SVMq8YHnGdU2dZveF2wTEUhVbVsdCs6c2w0XyJDHfZt88RdnLFdd4fxhRNbee_hK7bICi4u-IR2uD9S7uJoYqI-HI5lHwEmlZkiizXO7BI31pTz0rkJgZvpR-USyuAT7ZEX0C95cxqV_zds8tsjt5P-nBEd0-wqrMAn8IQL1obRmlJzC40EOoiKGMM31OVXDVogmJU4sBvmwJw002Jq9t9Y55_7fzpqoPQ9V5QQ5w-fKS5RUZDolJ3KTCTYV1dDHA4eS6YTDLaZXWu3Ki6mJex35v9LocdpSTXxG2D53u04ztDLpxEfqVkJuDtjAYzkRpMdIuiJOPvDavmm3UVfwuoIMs51FuMQjizNEgkkM9axLMbJ=w788-h1398-no)
Thanks,
Andy
I have to take back what I said...there is an o-ring under the washer...886.4.118.1A O-ring.
The studs don't go through cooling passages though, and I really can't figure what the o-ring actually accomplishes.
Maybe Speeddog or the vet knows.
I rode it some more, now I have some oil on the front of the horizontal cylinder head and it's dripping down onto the starter. It looks like it may be coming from that nut in the picture, not the green one, but the other one. It's just a small drop but it's coated under the engine. Could there be an oil passage in there and thats what the o-ring is for? Doesn't quite add up though since the other nut is turned green from corrosion which would make you think coolant right?
I've not had the heads off of a 749/999, so I've not seen a head gasket.
From the parts catalogue, it looks like there's some sort of sealing feature around the studs on the head gaskets.
Buuuut, said parts catalogue drawings are not always accurate.
Ducvet to the white courtesy phone....
Where is the vet? I can't seem to find a good photo of the cylinder head online. At least one that shows that kind of detail.
Quote from: Enzoman on September 13, 2016, 08:25:40 AM
Where is the vet? I can't seem to find a good photo of the cylinder head online. At least one that shows that kind of detail.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?action=profile;u=62 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?action=profile;u=62)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GENUINE-DUCATI-1098R-2008-2009-COMPLETE-GASKET-SET-79120471A-01-/182162254246?hash=item2a69b769a6:g:qBMAAOSwHnFVn99I (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GENUINE-DUCATI-1098R-2008-2009-COMPLETE-GASKET-SET-79120471A-01-/182162254246?hash=item2a69b769a6:g:qBMAAOSwHnFVn99I)
The ebay.uk link shows pretty good detail on the head gasket
Quote from: ducpainter on September 13, 2016, 08:42:40 AM
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?action=profile;u=62 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?action=profile;u=62)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GENUINE-DUCATI-1098R-2008-2009-COMPLETE-GASKET-SET-79120471A-01-/182162254246?hash=item2a69b769a6:g:qBMAAOSwHnFVn99I (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GENUINE-DUCATI-1098R-2008-2009-COMPLETE-GASKET-SET-79120471A-01-/182162254246?hash=item2a69b769a6:g:qBMAAOSwHnFVn99I)
The ebay.uk link shows pretty good detail on the head gasket
Looks like that is for a 1098. I been trying to find a photo of a 998 cylinder head that is disassembled so I can see what the o-ring is for, if anything. There is a photo in the service manual but it is not very clear. I'll put that up later and maybe you can see something. Thanks Ducpainter.
Andy
Okay you have shown the problem so it is time t find the cause.
Start by cleaning everything well and de-greasing the area.
Next you want to use some white spray powder like spray foot powder on the area, make sure to buy the white powder aerosol not clear.
Run the bike to the problem temp and watch the powder for the white to darken up, this will tell where it is truly coming from.
Next you need to figure out if it is coolant ,oil or both.
Before looking at a head gasket check/change the side cover 0-rings, In your pictures you can see the 6mm allens holding on the side covers. Under the covers will be oil and coolant passageways that could be the source. It is an easy check so worth doing before pulling heads and spending $$$ on head gaskets.
If everything looks good on the side then if you can measure CO in your radiator cooling system it may tell if you have a bad head gasket. There should be NO CO in the cooling system.
Is the bike over heating?
Is the bike losing coolant from the radiator?
could the corrosion be from bike cleaners?
the head nuts are greased from assembly is it possible the "oil" you are seeing is just the grease heated from running to the point it liquefies and looks like an oil leak?
Again you should start by cleaning and testing first.
Knowledge is so make the beast with two backsing cool [bow_down]
(even cooler than facegram)
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on September 13, 2016, 03:24:28 PM
Okay you have shown the problem so it is time t find the cause.
Start by cleaning everything well and de-greasing the area.
Next you want to use some white spray powder like spray foot powder on the area, make sure to buy the white powder aerosol not clear.
Run the bike to the problem temp and watch the powder for the white to darken up, this will tell where it is truly coming from.
Next you need to figure out if it is coolant ,oil or both.
Before looking at a head gasket check/change the side cover 0-rings, In your pictures you can see the 6mm allens holding on the side covers. Under the covers will be oil and coolant passageways that could be the source. It is an easy check so worth doing before pulling heads and spending $$$ on head gaskets.
If everything looks good on the side then if you can measure CO in your radiator cooling system it may tell if you have a bad head gasket. There should be NO CO in the cooling system.
Is the bike over heating?
Is the bike losing coolant from the radiator?
could the corrosion be from bike cleaners?
the head nuts are greased from assembly is it possible the "oil" you are seeing is just the grease heated from running to the point it liquefies and looks like an oil leak?
Again you should start by cleaning and testing first.
It's not overheating and the radiator is full. Just the bottle is a little low. So the o-ring under the head nut is to keep coolant and or oil from leaking out? The horizontal cylinder looks like oil, but the vertical one looks like coolant. I can pull the covers. Do I need to drain the entire cooling system before opening the covers? I cleaned everything and I'm going to start fresh with your suggestion. I do have a couple of service reports where the tech made notes of leaking head gasket and it states that it's leaking oil. But, I didn't know oil was a sign of a blown head gasket. I suppose the horizontal cylinder could be the grease you mentioned. As I said before, it was bubbling out around the threads when the engine was around 220. Maybe I can get a video of it. Thanks for your help.
Andy
Andy
I would go the clean and powder route , top the fluids to the middle of the range on the bottle and mark that point with a piece of tape or marker. See if the bike is using coolant, based on your description I would guess it is NOT. How high to you rev the rpm's? if you give it a good hard and hot ride and then check to see if you then are lowering the coolant level,smoking when hot or getting oil in the coolant.
The o-rings you are referring to are at the bottom of the studs near the case, they can be damaged and then oil would weep up the stud hole. It would be at case pressure so I would file that under nuisance leak and treat it as such. You would need to pull both head and cylinder to check or replace them. If you do go after one plan on changing them all plus new head gaskets, winter off/season job. You might be able to temporarily seal the leak by using gasket sealer under the head nut, down the stud hole but this could be a pia later if you do go in.
Yes you would drain the cooling system before pulling head side covers, you could drain it 1/2 way but I see no benefit to doing so.
If it is just a slow leak/weep then the question becomes a matter of is it worth fixing now vs just keeping it clean and next major service have it looked at. If it is a head gasket and the temps are getting high and/or the leak is going to get on your tires you need to do something before riding. Over heating will warp the heads/cylinders which can be fixed but adds costs.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on September 14, 2016, 10:39:19 AM
Andy
I would go the clean and powder route , top the fluids to the middle of the range on the bottle and mark that point with a piece of tape or marker. See if the bike is using coolant, based on your description I would guess it is NOT. How high to you rev the rpm's? if you give it a good hard and hot ride and then check to see if you then are lowering the coolant level,smoking when hot or getting oil in the coolant.
The o-rings you are referring to are at the bottom of the studs near the case, they can be damaged and then oil would weep up the stud hole. It would be at case pressure so I would file that under nuisance leak and treat it as such. You would need to pull both head and cylinder to check or replace them. If you do go after one plan on changing them all plus new head gaskets, winter off/season job. You might be able to temporarily seal the leak by using gasket sealer under the head nut, down the stud hole but this could be a pia later if you do go in.
Yes you would drain the cooling system before pulling head side covers, you could drain it 1/2 way but I see no benefit to doing so.
If it is just a slow leak/weep then the question becomes a matter of is it worth fixing now vs just keeping it clean and next major service have it looked at. If it is a head gasket and the temps are getting high and/or the leak is going to get on your tires you need to do something before riding. Over heating will warp the heads/cylinders which can be fixed but adds costs.
I haven't had it over maybe 7,000 rpm and only short bursts. And I rarely see the temp high enough for the fans to come on. I have to purposely ride in the city to get it hot enough. It's normally around 160 to 170.
In my other post did you see the diagram from the service manual? It shows that o-ring at the top of the stud. Is that a mistake in the manual? I don't see one at the bottom?
Also, I forgot to ask... what do you mean by CO in the coolant? Are you referring to oil?
Thanks,
By CO he's referring to the byproduct of combustion... carbon monoxide.
Diagrams in manuals show order but not placement, the o-ring is just above the case threads.
Low rpms will possibly mask the issues, as long as you are not seeing issues at 7000rpms run it closer to redline a few times to allow things to see what they really are doing. yes this means you are doing stupid things with regards to speed laws so be careful and be safe (welcome to my world)...lol
CO is exhaust gas that if it is in the coolant then the head gasket is allowing combustion gasses into the cooling system = blown gasket.
Got it, will do. Thanks for replying, I didn't know CO was detectable that way, good to know.
Thanks,
Andy