TL;DR summary: How would you clean/line rusty tank for carbureted 2001 M750?
Detail:
I am trying to revive a tank with a rusty interior on my carbureted 2001 M750. I plan to use the POR 15 motorcycle kit to clean and line.
(By the way, this is my first experience with any work on my own bike, but I'm not a complete stranger to basic auto repairs)
Initially, the gas cap was rusted shut. I had to drill a hole in the outer gas cap surface to access the inner holding screw and remove the entire assembly.
This is also the style of tank with drain (overflow?) lines inside and fuel filter outside. As far as I can tell, there is no way to remove the internal lines.
To add insult to injury, I can't figure out how to remove the fuel-level sensor from the bottom of the tank. I've already inadvertently snapped the wires off the bottom (from aggressive shaking with water to rinse the inside), but the assembly remains firmly intact. If it unscrews (I'm told it does) I've not figured out how to do it.
Since I am more concerned with a clean tank than a functioning fuel sensor, I am thinking of just starting the POR 15 cleaning/lining process without removing the fuel sensor (I know this may kill low fuel light, but I can live with that...I think). But with the internal drain lines, I am concerned that I may ruin the whole tank if I just start the cleaning/lining process as is (and merely plug the existing holes while treating).
Might anyone have perspective on this variation of tank, whether I must do more to remove internal components before I clean (if so, how?), and/or whether I can proceed with POR 15 process without worrying about totally destroying the tank?
Any thoughts/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
I have a little experience with this. ;D
First...Remove the sender. Loosen the large nut and pull it out. If you leave it in there will inevitably be rinse water trapped that will ruin your job.
Second...the acid for the POR works quite well, but with heavy scale it will take forever to remove it, and you'll be rolling the tank for days. Buy yourself a 5 gallon Evaporust kit. http://www.evapo-rust.com/ Plug all the holes and fill it to the top and let it sit until the rust is gone. Then do the POR process like you were just starting. Follow the directions exactly...right down to the temperature of your work area.
The internal steel lines are not removable. Make sure they are clear...not plugged.
I strongly recommend a blow dryer or heat gun to dry the tank. Use it on low. I've burned the paint on tanks before.
Depending on how rusty the tank is, it is possible it will be porous after the evaporust/POR treatment. If that happens all is not lost. We can deal with that when it happens.
Thanks DP, this is great help.
Forgive me for potentially silly question. Once fuel sensor large nut is off (it is), if fuel sensor won't pull out (it won't), are there any special tricks? Or should I just brute force it out using whatever it takes?
I'd rather use the term finesse. It will come out. You'll likely need to replace it, or the oring, at least.
A screw driver between the flange and the threaded bung...a pair of channel locks on the flange.
It will come out.
If you are in the US I would not use POR any more.
Most POR I have seen is failing , even it should be done right. I would look at the caswell tank kits, they may not last forever but so far Kreem,redcote,POR-15 have all failed.
Other than that , painter is right on the money.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on December 03, 2016, 02:07:56 PM
If you are in the US I would not use POR any more.
Most POR I have seen is failing , even it should be done right. I would look at the caswell tank kits, they may not last forever but so far Kreem,redcote,POR-15 have all failed.
Other than that , painter is right on the money.
You've seen some fail, but most, really? I've had a few fail, and I honestly don't know why, but with the number of tanks I coated over the years, I'd expect more complaints if the POR truly sucked.
I'm not a real fan of the Caswell product, because as packaged it's a real pain to work with. It isn't bad if reduced, but because it's an epoxy you have to be careful about compatibility with rust removal products. Caswell says leave the rust in there. I say bullshit.
Just a thought. Could POR15 have changed chemically due to whatever environmental code might exist?
Always a possibilty. I have seen Kreeme let go after a few years and clag carbs and filters. Maybe new fuel additives contribute, I'm not sure.
Quote from: koko64 on December 04, 2016, 01:32:11 AM
Always a possibilty. I have seen Kreeme let go after a few years and clag carbs and filters. Maybe new fuel additives contribute, I'm not sure.
Any sealer can fail....it's an odds job, the odds are if you do it correctly it will be fine...But a percentage will fail because sealing a tank is a blind job you can never be 100 percent sure the entire interior is prepped properly....And a failure of the sealer is a real mess....I say only use sealer as a last resort.....
It has become rare for me to see a tank come into the shop with POR-15 in the tank that is NOT bubbling in spots. There was no problem for many many years but about 2-3 years ago something changed and now it is common for me to give the news to customers that the tank they had sealed is now a big question mark.
Yes Truckedup the process needs to be done correctly for it to work, Given many of these obs I am seeing were done professionally by different pro's you would think I would see less problems if it was simply someone did not do a good job.
No one wants to re-coat tanks after they have been done because it can take 2x the time to get the old coating out before a new coating goes in so many Pro's wont touch them. I certainly get that and it forces owners to start doing the work themselves, as a repair shop I have no interest in doing a job I cannot be sure will last.
Painter I get you do not like the caswell process and tomorrow I may start seeing caswell failures, but as of today 12/2016 they are the only process I have seen that does not fail with our fuel. I would simply like to see our old fuel back and then 90% of these problems go away. Not going to happen.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on December 05, 2016, 07:37:17 AM
<snip>
Painter I get you do not like the caswell process and tomorrow I may start seeing caswell failures, but as of today 12/2016 they are the only process I have seen that does not fail with our fuel. I would simply like to see our old fuel back and then 90% of these problems go away. Not going to happen.
I'm not saying that the Caswell will fail chemically, or bubble off the surface due to ethanol damage. If you simply add a layer of epoxy on one side of the cancer...it doesn't stop the cancer. It just stops the rust from clogging the filter. Is it better? I guess if your bike keeps running it is. My problem is that it isn't a real solution. It's just a band aid, and eventually you'll just have an epoxy bladder.
The fuel will get worse before it gets better.
Caswell or Bill Hirsch.
Bill Hirsch makes a kit for motorcycle tanks -- has the rust remover, etch. and coating all in one kit.
http://www.hirschauto.com/MOTOR-CYCLE-TANK-REPAIR-KIT/productinfo/CRK-01/
I use Bill Hirsch on all the metal tanks I refurb. Never had a failure. Follow the directions PRECISELY. After you do the etch, the inside of the tank will be 100% virgin metal -- dry it well. Try to do the work in a low humidity environment -- a small hair dryer helps a lot to blow out the moisture and prep it.
Around here non ethanol fuel is readily available.....I work on vintage British bikes for a few guys..They are old and the fuel tanks get rusty inside...If the tank is solid I clean it by shaking it with a hand full of dry screws inside. Then remove the screws and use phosphoric acid.No sealer...For the most part the tank will stay clean enough inside as not to be a problem. Sometimes the tank flat bottom needs to be cut out and new metal welded in...Due to the shape of newer bike tanks it's not easy to do this..
I was given an old Triumph bike to repair and one problem was a Creme sealer failure...I cut a hole in the tank so I could be sure all the sealer was gone...Once removed I saw the tank interior was not rusty...So the sealer may have failed because of fuel or a bad prep job...
If a tank leaks from crack or failed weld I can easily repair that after using proper precautions to purge the tank of fumes...But if the tank has sealer inside, all the sealer needs to be removed first...
Quote from: ducatiz on December 05, 2016, 09:13:48 AM
Caswell or Bill Hirsch.
Bill Hirsch makes a kit for motorcycle tanks -- has the rust remover, etch. and coating all in one kit.
http://www.hirschauto.com/MOTOR-CYCLE-TANK-REPAIR-KIT/productinfo/CRK-01/
I use Bill Hirsch on all the metal tanks I refurb. Never had a failure. Follow the directions PRECISELY. After you do the etch, the inside of the tank will be 100% virgin metal -- dry it well. Try to do the work in a low humidity environment -- a small hair dryer helps a lot to blow out the moisture and prep it.
When was the last time you did one with the Hirsch product 'Tiz?
Quote from: NeilF on November 30, 2016, 08:20:13 AM
TL;DR summary: How would you clean/line rusty tank for carbureted 2001 M750?
~~~SNIP~~~
I'd send it to these guys:
http://www.gastanklining.com/
I have no experience with the Bill Hirsch kit so I have nothing bad to say about them. But then the POR and Kreme kits were also fine for many,many years. I do not know as short term results will tell much. we need to know how the Bill Hirsch kit is 3,4 or 5 years later. Are you able to check the older tanks you have coated?
I will look into the Bill Hirsch kit as any options are better than none.
painter
There is no reason you cannot remove the rust before Caswell just as you always did with any of the others, then you do not have to worry about the rust spreading under the caswell. I do not know that caswell will not have problems down the road only that I have not seen any of them to date.
Truckedup
part of the process with Kreme has always to use an acid to remove any rust in the tank first so the fact you saw none under the kreme is an indication someoone followed directions when doing the kit.
There are also products like metalready (sp) where you just acid wash the inside to remove rust and run it that way. But what about the tanks that leak but have no rust?
My problem with the coatings is just that if they do fail now you have a bigger problem. Painter could probably add what pulling dents or welding hinge plates would do to coatings inside necessitating even more fun.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on December 05, 2016, 11:01:35 AM
I have no experience with the Bill Hirsch kit so I have nothing bad to say about them. But then the POR and Kreme kits were also fine for many,many years. I do not know as short term results will tell much. we need to know how the Bill Hirsch kit is 3,4 or 5 years later. Are you able to check the older tanks you have coated?
I will look into the Bill Hirsch kit as any options are better than none.
painter
There is no reason you cannot remove the rust before Caswell just as you always did with any of the others, then you do not have to worry about the rust spreading under the caswell. I do not know that caswell will not have problems down the road only that I have not seen any of them to date.
Truckedup
part of the process with Kreme has always to use an acid to remove any rust in the tank first so the fact you saw none under the kreme is an indication someoone followed directions when doing the kit.
There are also products like metalready (sp) where you just acid wash the inside to remove rust and run it that way. But what about the tanks that leak but have no rust?
My problem with the coatings is just that if they do fail now you have a bigger problem. Painter could probably add what pulling dents or welding hinge plates would do to coatings inside necessitating even more fun.
You cannot use phosphoric acid to remove rust and then coat with epoxy.
I have personal experience, albeit in a different medium, with that scenario.
I would imagine you just need to neutralize the acid and clean well afterwards. What was the problem, cleaning prior?
Nick
The only issue there is that if the tank has been coated prior you are looking at $500-600 which is better than a new tank but most customers start tearing up if the cost gets above $300. They also seem to be using a epoxy like caswell (might be C) they talk of the proprietary process not chemicals. If you follow the link to aftermarket coating removal you find the usual disclaimers (might not get it all might damage paint,etc) . I wonder what their thoughts are when the tank needs welding after the coating?
Like I said, it was in a different medium, but the result was complete delamination of the epoxy. After discussion with lab people at Sherwin-Williams I was told never to use any phosphoric acid containing product under epoxy.
Try it and let me know how it works. [evil]
...or better yet call Caswell and see what they say.
I've welded tanks that were coated with POR without removing the coating first. I had no issues.
I'll ask GTL about welding after coating.
I imagine they'll not recommend it.
I don't think their process is Caswell, it's a shiny gray coating.
They're the best I've found so far.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2016, 11:25:31 AM
I've welded tanks that were coated with POR without removing the coating first. I had no issues.
But you still had to remove the coating ruined by the heat of welding... The other danger is a large bubble containing gas fumes that doesn't clear when you purge the tank of fumes....The risk of a bike tank exploding is often based on fear and not reality but flare ups can happen..
Regardless of brand of coating all we can do now is keep an eye on them all.
plastic tanks had no problems for many years
POR-15 had no problems for years
Kreme had no problems for years ( I just hated the MEK high that came from using it).
Redkote I have never applied it but have seen a couple failures in the last 4 years.
The application is very important but clearly the fuel is messing with most of them. I have to imagine at the same time the companies selling the coatings are attempting to come up with new formulas that will hold up better. My problem is who wants to be a test pilot when the liner failure can create a larger problem.
Where are our Aluminum tanks?
Composite tanks are sounding more attractive but they have their own problems and I do not want to give up my magnetic tank bags. Maybe we just need someone to start stamping out new steel tanks.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2016, 10:13:41 AM
When was the last time you did one with the Hirsch product 'Tiz?
about 18 months ago? 600TL tank. why?
Quote from: ducatiz on December 12, 2016, 08:50:32 AM
about 18 months ago? 600TL tank. why?
I did tanks with POR for years...never a failure.
All of a sudden, I couldn't say that any more, although it was only a few.
I don't know if they changed the POR, or the effects of ethanol finally started to rear their ugly head.
Just trying to get a sense of what's what.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 12, 2016, 09:33:36 AM
I did tanks with POR for years...never a failure.
All of a sudden, I couldn't say that any more, although it was only a few.
I don't know if they changed the POR, or the effects of ethanol finally started to rear their ugly head.
Just trying to get a sense of what's what.
I know some stuff has changed due to VOC laws here and there, but it should be easy enough to test -- coat a piece of metal and dunk it in gas in a sealed container. I would also take some E85 gas and do it and see what happens.
The Bill Hirsch product seems to be bullet proof. I use caswell's on plastic tanks, but bill hirsch on metal tanks.. I have a GTL with a coated tank, did it about 10 years ago. It has sat with gas for months at a time (yeah, yeah, I should drain it...).. zero issues. I bought a fibre optic camera to check my plastic tanks and used it on the GTL tank. Zero issues.
I'm done with gas tanks, thank you very much.
When I do my own Monster tank I'll try the Hirsch product. I'm familiar with some of his other resto products.
Thanks for all the input, esp. Ducpainter re: Evaporust. I was worried about days of rolling...
I finally removed the fuel sensor (it was stuck like crazy), plugged the holes, and it's sitting now full of evaporust. Product lit says give it 12 or so hours, so I will...
Re: POR 15, I wasn't aware of recent quality and performance concerns. I was going to line the tank as an extra precaution. If the exterior of the tank has no leaks, do I really need to line it? Or can I just rinse out Evaporust, dry the tank, then fill it with gas and go?
Quote from: NeilF on January 07, 2017, 05:07:07 PM
Thanks for all the input, esp. Ducpainter re: Evaporust. I was worried about days of rolling...
I finally removed the fuel sensor (it was stuck like crazy), plugged the holes, and it's sitting now full of evaporust. Product lit says give it 12 or so hours, so I will...
Re: POR 15, I wasn't aware of recent quality and performance concerns. I was going to line the tank as an extra precaution. If the exterior of the tank has no leaks, do I really need to line it? Or can I just rinse out Evaporust, dry the tank, then fill it with gas and go?
You have that option. The Monster tanks, as well as most Ducati tanks, had some sort of coating on the metal, I think Zinc from the appearance after Phosphoric acid etch, which did help to fight rust. If your tank was already very rusty it might be an issue in those areas. The Evaporust won't remove, or convert, the Zinc that's intact.
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on December 05, 2016, 11:13:06 AM
I would imagine you just need to neutralize the acid and clean well afterwards. What was the problem, cleaning prior?
<snip>
Phosphoric acid on rusty old trucks and machinery followed by epoxy primer has been my go-to system for years. The painted machine are mine, I still own them and even after many years I have never had a primer failure. Just my experience and there very well may be a good reason not to use epoxy over phosphoric acid treated steel, but I haven't run into it yet.