Ducati Monster Forum

So, I can't help but feel extremely responsible for this incident so I'd like to vent here.  Basically, I agreed to go riding with a friend of mine and he asked if he could bring a friend of his who just got a bike.  I said sure and we set off.  This was his first time in the canyons and we went over some rules and tips for him to keep the plastic off the ground and his head off of the pavement.  The whole morning he was doing well.  We went through kanan, the pch and mulholland.  Towards 12pm we were going to grab some lunch at the Rock Store and decided to take Piuma across.  On the way downhill we ran into some dense fog that was rolling over.  I felt that since I was the guy in the middle that I should tell the new guy to slow down, so I gave him the signal.  He was good about keeping his pace even if we were far ahead of him and we'd slow eventually to wait up.   Well, we slowed and he didnt show up, which was odd because he was generally only about 5-10 seconds behind us.   

My buddy turned around and said that if he didn't come back that I should turn around.  I waited a couple minutes and I had a feeling something went wrong so I went up.  Lo and behold, the new guy low sided his bike and was laying next to the guard rail.  Anyway, he fractured his collar bone, shattered his ankle and had some cuts.  He went into the turn too fast and apparently grabbed a fistful of brakes mid-lean.  But I feel like I'm somewhat to blame for this.   Would he have crashed if I had slowed down and he was able to see how fast I was taking the turn and how much of a lean I was putting into the bike?  Rather than leaving him behind knowing well that he didn't understand the pace of the turns, should I have stayed back?

I mean, because of this incident he won't be able to do jiujitsu, ride his bike, or do any active sport for at least a few months.  Not to mention he may be totally turned away from riding as a whole.   Was I wrong?

I say.... no harm no foul on your end. sometimes people need to eat a lil pavement to learn a lesson. I've been there done that.

Not your fault brother. I've been in the same situation. You can only do your best in telling the newbie's to watch their speed and ride at their own pace.

In time he will heal and if he truly loves riding, he'll be back.

Ride safe.

I kinda know how you feel. I made an error on the other side and babied my friend too much and went too slow on a banked hairpin. I also took a crappy line but managed to hang through it but my friend panicked and tried to stop and fell over. No injuries and only scrapes for his bike but it was my fault that he fell. But I don't feel that your case is the same. I don't think it's your fault.

Your friend brought the newbie so it's more his job to babysit him than yours. The new rider should have known to slow down with the fog too. Accidents suck but an accident is an accident and holding yourself responsible doesn't help fix it. Just be grateful he wasn't hurt worse and ways laying next to the railing rather than under it or worse.

it sucks but it's really not your fault at all.

understandable to feel the way you do, but he's a grown man.  Like Ice Cube said "..I'm grown, can't nobody get me in trouble."


Andy

The fact that you are questioning your own judgment and even laying out a more thoughtful option might give you insight into what your conscience is telling you.  Of course, everyone here will pat you on the back and tell you to brush it off.  But, come on.  If you had an inkling to do what was more prudent and didn't act on it, then you're not completely blameless.

Not trying to be a dick, just looking at it from another perspective.  I'm NOT saying it's your fault that it happened.  Not at all.  I'm just saying perhaps you could have helped reduced the risk of it happening.  Kind of like when you see a kid about to cross the street into oncoming traffic.  Do you pull him back or just shrug your shoulders and think, "dumb ass?"

That is all.  So, if you have a hot girlfriend or wife, I suggest you show naked pictures of her to your downed friend to absolve you of some of this guilt you are feeling.  :)

Unless you had at some point during the day committed to remain close and provide instruction to the guy, only the rider is responsible and accountable for his riding.  Honestly, if he couldn't see your speed/ line and he was not familiar with the roads, he should have exercised some prudence and SLOWED DOWN.

Lester

...you have no fault at all...its too bad for your friend's friend   :'( (of course) but nothing more couold or should have been done on your side...

on the other hand why was his friend in front of you and not waiting/taking care of him?

it hapens way too often IMO, that folks meet up for a ride, bring a friend and then "leave" him/her to you "the expert" to take care of them...not cool

i think your buddy should have stayed behind with him, not you...(if anyone, we are all grown ups after all)

im sure your buddies friend has no hard feelings towards you at all...i would be surprised if he did

ciao  ;D

I guess I'm not totally at fault, but as was said by someone, I probably could have reduced the chances.  The reason my friend was in front of me was because he planned the trip and knew the routes we were taking.  But I know he didn't mean to leave any sort of responsibility unto me. 

I just hope the guy doesn't stop riding because of this incident. 

..me neither

Accidents like that tell you how much you love riding whether they happen to you or not. My roommate stopped riding as much after I got in my accident. He was in the car behind me and didn't see the exact moment of the accident but saw everything after. Scared him pretty good. I still get paranoid of cars coming out of driveways or making left turns in front of me.  :-[

+1  your friend wanted to take the n00b, and you took the extra time to signal when he needed to slow down.
It was the n00bs fault and if anyone should have babysat it the your friend.   I say 100% not your fault and 100% good guy for giving the n00b input and felling bad about the situation

I feel I have some a couple of qualifications to help answer your question. 1) I am a noob 2) I just had a much faster friend, who did not wait for me, take me out to decker/deer creek and latigo three weeks ago.

You did not do anything wrong.  The noob controls his own speed and if he/she is not able to understand their limits its not your fault. I set my own pace and took it easy and as I feel more comfortable I slowly increase my speed.

Out of curiosity, was he/she wearing protective gear?

No blame on you, the guy is an adult (I assume) so he needed to take his own skill set into account.  A kid crossing the street is different, the kid probably doesn't know or can't fully comprehend the danger, but an adult who made a conscious decision to buy a motorcycle I think is a different story.

I agree with bobspapa, sometimes a lil pavement will drive the lesson home.  It's unfortunate that he got hurt BUT it could have been worst.

I am going to walk the line here and chime in some where between M(*)nster  and the others. While I would not say it is your fault that the guy went down I do think you owe some minimum level of responsibility to a new rider like that.

It probably shouldn't have been your responsibility as it was a friend's friend but given that you left it to him to lead and he was setting a pace you both realized was faster than the noob could handle and you were by default left to care for the new guy. From what it sounds like you were concerned and that was a start. After that you should have told your friend to slow down and baby sit the noob or realized that you had to be the guy to step up.

Again I repeat it is not your fault as you were not riding the guy's bike for him and accidents do happen. It is not a matter of if you will crash but when. That being said IMO the conditions/rules of the ride to be implemented by the experienced riders are as follows given the circumstances.

1. The rider is new to riding with an unknown skill level. Keep the rider in your mirrors or with in a couple of seconds of being in them at all times (or ride sweep staying back far enough for them not to feel pressure). It seems the post that this person only had the most basic skill set. Obviously you can evaluate this as the ride progresses. Maybe the rider grew up on dirt bikes and is new to street bikes so the gap can grow. But if it turns out they are 2 days out of MSF with no other time on a bike you need to keep them in your mirrors even if the pace is picking up as new riders make all sorts of mistakes.

2. It was the rider's first time in the canyons. The roads are not known and the type of ride is entirely different than city riding. First time to the canyons riders don't have a concept of the corners as city riding usually involves brief 90deg turns or very very mild curves. Sweepers, hairpins, esses, uphill and down hill corners are all very unique the first time you experience them. Given this you need to be a guide for a rider on a new road. Particularly a new rider. Let them see you go around the corner. If you know there is a tendency for debris or an unexpected sharpness to a corner let them see your brake lights prior to going into the corner even if you don't need the brakes. This lets them know that maybe there is more to the corner than it seems since the experienced rider has to put on the brakes.

A new rider also needs to see the lines you are taking. Motorcycles and cars are quite different when it comes to lines and the canyons even if they quite an accomplished driver. The car uses the whole lane where a motorcycle basically has 3 lanes to choose from, left tire track, right tire track and in between where the sand and rocks tend to accumulate as the car tires push it there. A new rider trying to ride race apexes is going to cross that hazard right in the middle of their corner. Not good. As the experienced rider you should show the noob the outside line around all the corners until they build a proficiency in the canyons. This keeps their pace slower and them off of the yellow on lefts and off the wall/debris on rights.

I firmly believe that in the case of the 1st condition given a brand new rider the rule is you should always keep them in sight. Condition 2 offers more flexibility. If you know the person you are riding with is experienced but new to the road you should still let them know when things are out of the ordinary like slowing down more than needed prior to a particular tricky corner but other than that let them ride as they see fit.

While it may not be your fault that a rider you are riding with goes down we should look out for one another. If there is no clear leader in the group with new riders or first time to a road step up and take care of those who may not understand the situation. We all understand there are risks and crashing is bound to happen but there is no reason we as a community we should say that all responsibilities belong solely to the individual and the group has none.

all of that ^^ is appropriate.  i also think that if you're adult enough to throw a leg over a bike, you've just taken the whole situation into your own hands.  people get in over their heads in all kinds of circumstances*; it's up to you as to whether you realize this and slow way down or you don't.  we all look out for other riders and i would feel bad for the guy too, but it's definitely not the fault of the OP.  there's feeling a responsibility and there's fault.  very different things.

my first time in any SoCal canyon.. really any canyon at all.. was a group ride that went up PCH, took a right on Latigo, and went screaming over to Mulholland.  there were several moments i thought i was going to die.  then i went and got some training.

* we shouldn't be in those canyons, at all, ever.  go to the track.

while metalduc's opinion is sound (and certainly less inflammatory than m(*)nster's [roll]), I think it's more fit for an organized group ride than this situation.  "Ride your own ride" goes both ways, he needs to ride as slow as he needs to be to be comfortable and you should be able to ride your own pace without being burdened by them.  It sounds like you guys were low pressure and accommodated him by being patient and waiting.  The type of instruction metal refers to is best left to a group ride where somewhere volunteers to provide that service to the noobs, or to schools like MSF ERC or the numerous track schools.

IMO your responsibility to a stranger tagging along on a (small) ride ends at not endangering them with your riding (passing them, pressuring them, etc).  You went above that in trying to communicate and watch out for him, but it certainly wasn't your burden to babysit them.  It's a stand-up thing that you're concerned, but as gm2 just echoed, that's a responsible thing and not fault thing.

there is a reason i don't carry my rescue diver cert card with me when i go diving: i don't want people on the boat to assume that i'm going to take responsibility for less experienced divers.

i'll help people out with their skills, and obviously assist if a rescue is needed, but it's not the reason i go diving.

thanks for all the input guys.  i feel a little bad about not making time to visit him in the hospital so i decided to buy his picture off of paul (capfacsurf) that was taken by the rock store earlier that day.  he was nice enough to cut me a discount on the pic after i told him about the incident. so, i think i'll print it out and attach it to a card.  kinda weird since i hardly know the guy. 

the newbie went down that is not your fault, in that he did not have teh skills or the prudence to take it slower.  what he should have been saying is "i'm going at my own pace and if i go really so and you guys ditch me so be it, i dont' care"  that is what he should have done.  and if the road seemed too advanced for him the friend was the one that should have said "yo this place is too much for you, take it really easy or meet up at this other road in 10 minutes."  if you thought the road was too tough then you could have said dude this is too tough for you.

now from a different perspective, if you do have a group ride i think someone has to tell newbies the "rules" of the ride, and if the friend didn't and you are "leader" then its up to you to say, "yo you got the message right".  its good that you guys waited up and such so that shows you were doing the right thing.

i would say don't lose any sleep over it.  if nothing else what you have to do next time is that you have learned you hav to make sure that beginnong of the ride to really ask/tell the person the dificulty of the roads and just to take it easy and relax. 

Speaking from the position of someone who once fell while blindly chasing another rider through a turn, I don't (and never did) hold the incident against him in the slightest. It was just dumb blind faith in the notion that if he could go through the turn at that speed, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to. Never mind he was called 'Crazy Dave.' Chalk it up as a (painful) learning experience.

Years later unfortunately I got a to see the other side of the coin when a new rider tried to chase me down mulholland at the rockstore, an endeavor that landed him a healthy helping of guardrail. His idea of riding cloths were jeans, a down jacket, and gardening gloves. Ouch... I felt bad, but having already been there myself, and having warned him earlier in the day that he appeared to be a little over his head I didn't really loose much sleep over it. It doesn't sound like there's any reason for you to either.

Totally your fault. Stop riding.

not to self.... never go diving with Derby    [laugh]

yeah, don't burden him by dying - he left his card at home.   [laugh]

i didn't say i wouldn't help. hell, i'd even babysit a friend if they went diving with me.

what i don't want is some divemaster buddying me up with a complete noob that needs to be handheld just because i'm a more qualified diver (and disregarding the affect it may have on my enjoyment of the dive).

derby.... selfish asshat dick diver  >:(


it's all "open water" when derbys in the pool




 [laugh]


but then agan.... I tried to keep have'n a trunk info quiet from Luca.

For the record, I was NOT trying to be inflammatory.  So, quit painting that picture.  Why don't you stand in front of the mirror and roll your eyes at yourself.

I didn't paint you as anything.  You disclaimed in your own post that you weren't "trying to be a dick", which is pretty much saying "I know I'm being inflammatory but..."

We differ in opinion on the OP's fault in the matter, I'm not a fan of the way your worded things, and all I did was say as much.  It's nothing personal, get the chip off your shoulder.

so wrong.  but funny as hell.

Oh, I love stories. The pipe bomb one was kinda tragic though. Can you please retell it with a happier ending? Thanks.

You are not to blame, you are however acting like a girl.

Guys view

3 guys went riding. 2 buddies who ride together often and one new guy.  The day was going well with everyone riding within their limits and the 2 buddies factoring in "wait" sessions for the new guy so he could ride at his own pace.  The new guy crashed towards the end of the canyon ride, nobody was there to see it, it could have been anything that caused it.

the reality is that as a motorcycle rider you will have to ride roads for the first time.  And you have to go through every turn with an expectation of the unexpected the first time.

99.999999999999% his fault
0.000000000001% your buddies fault for bringing him along
0% your fault

If you can convince your self that 100% for sure he would not have crashed if you had been right in front of him then
you can blame yourself  but I don't think thats possible

The dead horse has been officially beaten... [coffee]

guess we need to talk about stoner/rossi/tires then.

cmon lets kick it some more!!!!!!!!!!!!

I say we talk about oil. Surely he wouldn't have crashed had he been using Mobile 1 full synth.... [popcorn]

But he would have had to have broken the engine in with Dino oil!

Hey, I'm confused. My manual says to run 95 octane, but all there is at the pump is 91. Will that damage my bike?

Thanks for any advice.

ok, how about: don't drink like a fish the night before a track day...  [drink]

 ;D

Besides Derby's advice I would recommend 2 bottles of octane boost per tank as well as some lead additive. That should get you to 95 and prevent damage.




 [laugh]

Don't forget those Splifire spak plugs..... You hit your passing ger & your gone..... like right now [laugh]

+ 1

I stopped reading most of the post after this one.  Well stated.

I have noticed that experienced riders tend to like to show how experienced they are around new guys. Wake up people he was NEW. (Gee, lets take the new guy into a canyon in dense fog at a speed that will make him feel like a pussy if he can't keep up.)

In the future just recognize that you are not necessarily the person to break in new riders. From what I glimpsed so far most of those who posted aren't either.

~ Just an opinion...

- 1

Beaten Horse Dead Now For Weeks-A.P.

A horse that appeared on the Ducati Monster Forum has now officially been beaten so badly by its members, that PETA has said even it's organization is beyond being sympathetic to any new comers willing to "pick up the stick and start whacking."  Despite attempts to discourage similar types of behavior on the subject, onlookers are stunned when newcomers and veterans of the Forum continue to brutalize and beat a subject that has been dead for nearly three weeks. 

Oh, I have a story.  Check this out.

So senior year in college I go out with my bud, like a thousand nights before.  The usual foolishness you'd expect occurs and I end up sleeping with some random skank before I completely black out from drunkeness.  Next morning  I return to find my bud has met a lovely young lady that the rest of my friends and I know is a raving control freak pregnant dog after about two days.

My bud marries said pregnant dog after graduation and settles into adulthood. (Me, I continue acting like I'm in college for about another 5-6 years!! [beer]  [bacon] ). She rides him like a mule and he becomes a very succesful widget salesman and also picks up a wicked drinking habit because deep down he hates the pregnant dog  but is too much of a pussy to walk away. Twenty years later he is a ragging alcoholic who's in and out of rehad and she leaves his ass when he gets fired from his widget sales job.

I can't help but think that had I not been a drunken man-whore that night and helped him meet an equally skanky whore that he would be happy like me having never met his "dream" girl that night!

What do you think? [thumbsup]

PS To quote my completely self-centered brother (I envy his ability to totally focus on himself)," Everyone is responsible for their own good times."  I think you can exchange the word bad for good in this case and all the sad sack stories in this thread.  [roll]

+1 I put five of them in my bike,  10 mpg above average too.