Hey Crew,
If this has been covered elsewhere and I've missed it in my searches, feel free to point me to old threads.
I bought a 2008 SR4S last year (998 Testastretta, 9,200 miles). Since it came, I've been struggling to track down a cure to my rough running at flat throttle. Holding it steady at an RPM of 3500-5400 feels like I'm running over ruts and twigs.
Last year I swapped out the Champion plugs for NGK Iridiums and didn't notice a difference, but this weekend I moved back to new stock Champions and it got a lot worse. Perhaps I didn't notice the betterment. I adjusted the chain tension maybe 6 months ago and checked it this weekend.
She starts fine and is smooth at idle. Acceleration is mostly smooth. The previous owner had the 7,500 mile service done on time and I purchased it with 8,200. Termi exhaust and ECU. The airbox had the top chopped off. I strictly run ethanol-free 89 (US), but the previous owner did not judging by the tank swell.
Any guidance is appreciated.
Is it gas at the same vendor? Maybe bad gas. Try a different vendor.
This should probably be added to your old thread since there is a history if it is the same bike. Anyway, it would be a good idea to start with is basic adjustment: valve clearance, valve timing, TPS setting and throttle synch.
I'm not sure about this, but, if closed loop can't compensate, your open lid may be the problem if you are running the computer at factory settings. Partially close off the air box and see if it gets better.
New info. I looked at this post on MPG and was astounded.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1913.0
I've been tracking my milage and gas consumption for the last dozen fill-ups. I'm getting an average of 27 mpg, which looks to be about 1/2 what I should.
How might this factor in?
(http://i68.tinypic.com/23rwd9h.png)
How well do you know the history of this particular bike?
How well do you know the previous owner ?
QuoteThe previous owner had the 7,500 mile service done on time
Do you have the paper work?
QuoteTermi exhaust and ECU.
Slip on, or full system?
QuoteThe airbox had the top chopped off
Do you mean by that the stock air box rid is cut off ? Or are those three items (Termi pipes, ECU, open top air box rid) the ones sold as Ducati Performance kit?
Do you like the bike? Do you think you are going to keep it for long time?
Perhaps, at this point, it is best to bring the bike to someone who can run it on the dyno and reflash / reprogram ECU.
You can spend months for searching on the net, trying to solve the problem by yourself.
Or, one or two trips to dyno run, and all the problem solved.
FYI,
Symptoms of maladjusted TPS
The bike will run like crap ALL THE TIME. NOT like running sweet in condition A, but sputters/boggs/backfires in condition B.
Typically happens when DP kit (new exhaust and ecu) is installed by the owner at home.
Things you can try by yourself
for mid range, ride at a steady throttle in your normal rpm range and crack open the throttle.
If there is a slight bog or hesitation, then good acceleration, you are a little lean in the mid range.
If there is a bog and burble and not good acceleration till you back off the throttle a little bit, you are rich.
You'll also have soot in your tail pipe.
idle, from the factory its always a bit too lean.
Most stock engines are,
tuned to be lean at idle to pass emissions and
rich at top end to prevent overheating and burning a piston.
Also, there is a very good reason to run top end mid range a little lean, it makes WAY more power than too rich.
There is no simplistic answer for running lean/rich. Any engine can be lean at idle, rich at midrange and just right at top end all at the same time.
Reading spark plugs
You can not look at a spark plug that has been run for an length of time and tell anything specific from it, unless the engine is drastically lean or rich. In that case, you already know before looking at the spark plugs.
The brown/ tan color thing was useful when gas was leaded, not anymore. Now plugs look slightly grey to almost clean.
If you are running too lean, you'll see small spots/dots on the plug insulator.
This is the first indication of overheating. Don't ride it like this.
There are just too many small thing that can be the reason of the problem you are having.
O2 sensor
rubber plugs on the throttle body
Barometric Pressure/Air temp sensor
etc, etc,
that's why I suggested going to someone with diagnostic tool and dyno.
I had the same issue with my S4RT, I have a full Arrow system with a reprogrammed ECU to DP spec and chopped airbox lid. Took it to a dealer (DucPond) and had it bench tuned. Runs a little more consistent and civilized. However I think I'll take it in for a full remap/dyno tune this summer at some point to iron it out fully. It's a fueling issue most likely.
Quote from: greenohawk69 on April 10, 2018, 11:29:31 AM
Is it gas at the same vendor? Maybe bad gas. Try a different vendor.
A couple different stations. I have a few to chose from that cary non-E and I don't favor one.
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on April 10, 2018, 01:18:25 PM
Do you like the bike? Do you think you are going to keep it for long time?
I'll start with that question: Yes, very much. It's the '08 Tricolore and I wanted one since I first saw it in 2008.
I felt the owner was on the up and up for the most part. There were a few things he neglected to mention before I took delivery, but he gave me all of the service records. I see where the Ducati dealer performed the 7500 service.
This does appear to be the Ducati Performance Kit in all regards. The kit was dealer installed - I have the papers on that as well.
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on April 10, 2018, 02:15:08 PM
Symptoms of maladjusted TPS
The bike will run like crap ALL THE TIME. NOT like running sweet in condition A, but sputters/boggs/backfires in condition B.
Typically happens when DP kit (new exhaust and ecu) is installed by the owner at home.
I think we can rule the TPS out based on what you've said. However, I have TuneECU software and hardware and have done a bit of work with it on my EFI Triumph. I placed an order for the Fiat 3-pin to mate it with the Ducati, which should arrive this week. I have conflicting info as to whether TuneECU will work or if I need to learn the GuzziDiag software, but I hear that's not difficult. I will reset the TPS. Is there anything I should look to do
before I reset? What about afterwards?
I had a bad running engine because the fuel filter needed replacement.
The interval is 6000miles so maybe thats something to take notice of.
MH
Hi MH,
I hoped that to be the case. I ordered two filters last week and will put one in this weekend, however, after seeing that other riders are getting 40-50mpg while I'm getting 20-30 I've little hope of it fixing my issue.
IMO, S4Rs/t will only get 40-50 mpg downhill with a tailwind.
Same for S4R Desmoquattro.
More like ~35 for those bikes on any sort of realistic riding.
I can get ~43 on my S4 with mixed riding.
An old riding buddy had an S4R, he was smaller and lighter than me, first long ride with him he ran out, and I had more than enough left to go get a jug of gas to get him to the next station.
I've got a Microtec ECU on it, and in fiddling with maps I've put in one that's richer, and the bike runs better and gets better mileage.
Sometimes it's not as simple as it seems.
Try the fuel filter, and check the intake 'sock' filter to make sure it's not mucked up.
I would keep in mind as a possibiiity a worn or otherwise corrupted throttle position sensor.
Sounds unlikely given the low mileage but these bikes are 10 years old now.
I had a similar sounding - although not identical - problem with my S4Rs, and after changing just about everything on the bike to no avail, a fresh TPS did the trick.
The old TPS came up fine on diagnostics. But obviously it was worn or otherwise corrupted and sending a poor signal.
Problems arose at about 35,000 miles after the bike had an Arrow exhaust fitted and a tune. (I started a thread, which I should get around to updating. Tracing the fault took forever, for a range of reasons. I mean years.)
The common bits are the poor running at steady throttle in roughly the RPM range you quote, and the poor fuel consumption.
Old TPS got roughly 35mpg (US), sometimes worse. New TPS consistently 45mpg, and rarely drops below 42 even on entertaining roads. (Note that the bike has been dyno tuned, and so is not running the notoriously rich DP map.)
The TPS is in theory a non-replaceable part of the throttle bodies. In practice, the part is available cheaply from CA Cycleworks and Gotham (https://www.gothamcycles.com/ducati-throttle-position-sensor-tps--potentiometer-749999-8481198-sf-monster-s4rs-st3.html).
Note that replacement is not a simple job. And the first time I had it replaced, it didn't help (part of the reason for the long diagnosis period). The successful time, I had a low-mile used set of throttle bodies fitted - but the TPS was the only significant change.
With a faulty TPS, mine idled okay and was pretty good under acceleration and up top. Good enough that successive experienced mechanics could not pick an issue. But on steady throttle at open-road cruise speeds she felt unhappy and rough - a subtle difference but very noticeable for an owner familiar with the bike and how it could run.
As I say, just a thought if nothing else seems to help much.
Quote from: Moronic on April 13, 2018, 03:46:13 AM
...
The common bits are the poor running at steady throttle in roughly the RPM range you quote, and the poor fuel consumption.
Old TPS got roughly 35mpg (US), sometimes worse. New TPS consistently 45mpg, and rarely drops below 42 even on entertaining roads. (Note that the bike has been dyno tuned, and so is not running the notoriously rich DP map.)
...
With a faulty TPS, mine idled okay and was pretty good under acceleration and up top. Good enough that successive experienced mechanics could not pick an issue. But on steady throttle at open-road cruise speeds she felt unhappy and rough - a subtle difference but very noticeable for an owner familiar with the bike and how it could run.
Moronic - that sounds frightfully like my issues. Would an out of sync TPS share the same issues? I finally have all of the pieces ready for a reset this weekend.
The weekend plan:
1) Close off portions of the open air box. Ride. Repeat.
2) Software TPS reset if I can get (in this order) MelcoDiag, JDiag, or GuzziDiag installed and running.
3) Short of that, I have the instructions and voltmeter to dial the TPS in manually. ***
4) Replace the fuel filter. I'd do this first, but the tank is close to full. I'll draw it down by observing the output of the above.
*** I find it odd that the #2 and #3 yield the same results. Have I misread this in other posts?
You cannot set that TPS manually, it is not adjustable. If you can't cat your software running a shop shouldn't charge a lot to set it.
Quote from: KPhinney on April 13, 2018, 10:06:55 AM
Moronic - that sounds frightfully like my issues. Would an out of sync TPS share the same issues? I finally have all of the pieces ready for a reset this weekend.
I can't comment from experience on the out of sync TPS. But since the reset is such a quick and simple job for someone with the right diagnostics, it is an obvious prior step.
As Howie says, if you can't reset that yourself, get a shop to do it. I've seen it done and it doesn't take long.
If you do end up looking to replace the TPS, I would recommend you seek out a tech who has done this before with success. The original TPS is a one-way snap-fit, and I think it may also be bonded to the throttle body with a sealant of some kind.
Apparently it is quite difficult to get the original out without destroying it. Then the new one has to be fitted properly and re-synched.
Add to that the possibility that the new one will be faulty. CA Cycleworks, which tracked down and wholesales the individual part for us all, has posted on how they now test every TPS they import for accuracy using a proprietary test unit - and reject plenty. The TPS will come with a certification that it has been tested. But the test process may not be infallible, and it may not be out of the question that the unit could be damaged in the fitting process.
I saw an interesting post once on what was inside these (example used being a Yamaha FJR IIRC). It is a mechanical part, with the bits that modulate the signal requiring precision manufacturing and prone to wear and materials breakdown. The wear is most likely in the places where the TPS is most used - hence the likelihood of better running up top. Plus, on these bikes the ECU interpolates the signal: the reset gives it the top and bottom limits, and it makes inferences about the data it gets in the middle (as I understand it).
Anyway, if it comes to this you may find help here from people experienced with TPS replacement on the Testastretta. Due to the complications, I would not rush in there. But if everything else checks out and you are scratching your head, it's another path to go down.
I went through this with Chris and he told me almost nobody replaces these. Also asked if I knew someone who could do the work to please pass the name on. You have to remove the butterflies and slide the shaft out. Another expert who rebuilds TBs told me he would not touch it. Suffice it to say, replacing the TPS is not an option. Going further, it's been discussed that the TPS itself is not the issue, but the seal around the butterfly shaft leaking vacuum.
Appears you need to replace the throttle bodies if you have a problem with the sensor.
The fueling with these bikes has always been tricky, which is why everybody who goes out and gets a dyno tune always reports a night and day transformation.
I'm reluctant to go into much more detail here - after all, the TPS may not be the issue and probably isn't.
Nevertheless, a couple of points from experience and a bit of research.
1. The TPS on these throttle bodies can be replaced from the outside. Best demonstration is this 2014 post on British forum www.ducatiforum.co.uk:
https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-749-999-tps-replacement.24535/
This is for a 749, but the sensor and the way it connects with the throttle body is the same. A lot of the post deals with getting to the TBs. The pics of TPS removal are near the bottom.
Here is the TPS socket, with the part removed:
(https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/imag0350-jpg.31295/)
Interestingly, the poster said his first replacement TPS was faulty. He went through the process again with another replacement TPS, and reports at the bottom of the post a full cure.
The sensor is also used on some Italian cars. It appears from the thread following this post that there is even a fiat factory puller designed to remove this TPS.
2. There are suggestions floating around on the net that what causes these to go bad can be fuel or vapour leaking into the socket area shown above. Protruding into that socket is the butterfly shaft. I have no comment to make on this.
3. I have had put to me the proposition that fuelling issues arise on these bikes as they age because air leaks into the TBs through worn seals on the butterfly shafts.
Against that theory:
a) A revered long-time Ducati tech told me the theory made no sense as a diagnosis.
b) In response to the theory, my 35k mile TBs - which were quite worn at the TB seals/bearings - were replaced with a much fresher used set. (Unfortunately) the TPS was swapped at the same time - i.e. the old TPS was fitted to the fresher TBs. The problem remained.
c) It was these fresher TBs that were replaced more recently with yet another fresh-ish used set, which came with its own TPS. Night and day difference.
I offer these observations as observations. I am not a Ducati tech. Would be interested to hear any industry gossip the techs on this board could contribute.
Quote from: howie on April 13, 2018, 04:40:50 PM
You cannot set that TPS manually, it is not adjustable. If you can't cat your software running a shop shouldn't charge a lot to set it.
Good to know. The threads sometimes get dicy about the year and engine.
Unfortunately, the PC I keep in the garage for the Triumph wouldn't boot. It's been sitting for about 5 months. I'll find another and give the TPS reset a go this week.
Quote from: Moronic on April 14, 2018, 08:53:26 PM
I'm reluctant to go into much more detail here - after all, the TPS may not be the issue and probably isn't.
Nevertheless, a couple of points from experience and a bit of research.
1. The TPS on these throttle bodies can be replaced from the outside. Best demonstration is this 2014 post on British forum www.ducatiforum.co.uk:
https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-749-999-tps-replacement.24535/
This is for a 749, but the sensor and the way it connects with the throttle body is the same. A lot of the post deals with getting to the TBs. The pics of TPS removal are near the bottom.
Here is the TPS socket, with the part removed:
(https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/imag0350-jpg.31295/)
Interestingly, the poster said his first replacement TPS was faulty. He went through the process again with another replacement TPS, and reports at the bottom of the post a full cure.
The sensor is also used on some Italian cars. It appears from the thread following this post that there is even a fiat factory puller designed to remove this TPS.
2. There are suggestions floating around on the net that what causes these to go bad can be fuel or vapour leaking into the socket area shown above. Protruding into that socket is the butterfly shaft. I have no comment to make on this.
3. I have had put to me the proposition that fuelling issues arise on these bikes as they age because air leaks into the TBs through worn seals on the butterfly shafts.
Against that theory:
a) A revered long-time Ducati tech told me the theory made no sense as a diagnosis.
b) In response to the theory, my 35k mile TBs - which were quite worn at the TB seals/bearings - were replaced with a much fresher used set. (Unfortunately) the TPS was swapped at the same time - i.e. the old TPS was fitted to the fresher TBs. The problem remained.
c) It was these fresher TBs that were replaced more recently with yet another fresh-ish used set, which came with its own TPS. Night and day difference.
I offer these observations as observations. I am not a Ducati tech. Would be interested to hear any industry gossip the techs on this board could contribute.
OK then good stuff! It's the throttle butterfly shaft that I was thinking was the biggest bugaboo. If we are not to accuse the shaft seals of leaking, then this revelation concerning how to go about replacing the TPS is useful and something I would try myself. However if it is true that the seals
can leak and
do, that's another thing entirely. The butterfly plate screws are peened to the shaft and there's the challenge of reinstalling the plate perfectly concentric to the bore. The thought of that whole thing makes me nervous.
Hi Booger,
the shaft seals - from memory they are just long nylon bearings - can and do leak eventually, as they wear. That's established.
The question is whether in practice it is leakage through there or a TPS fault at the root of poor running that can be sourced to the TBs.
My experience - and as I say, some advice - suggests strongly that the key is the TPS and not any air leak that might develop at the butterfly shafts.
For example, the throttle bodies that came off my bike most recently are in excellent shape at the butterfly bearings. I could add more anecdotal stuff but won't here.
Certainly air leakage there will not be a problem for KPhinney given the low mileage on his bike.
You are quite right that replacing those bearings/seals would be a specialised job, even assuming the relevant parts could be purchased. I imagine there must be someone out there who could rebuild those TBs - if they were paid enough.
If those seals are very worn they could cause the problem. A little worn? Closed loop will compensate and open loop the vacuum leak is too minimal to be of consequence. Anyway, easy enough to check. A little oil (to seal the leak) or something burnable, like carb cleaner, or, if you are brave enough, propane it the area of the throttle seals and see if the idle tries to change. Anyway, since you bought the bike used all basic settings should be verified before going further.
I appreciate all of the help so far. I think I've located the cause. First, let me say I got JPDiag running without much hassle. The plan was to reset the TPS first. Turned out it was at 2.2deg. I'm not sure if this is perfect or just close, but the software wouldn't allow me to reset it so I' assuming it's within spec, and the bike ran just as rough as it had been.
Something Howie said got me thinking.....
Quote from: howie on April 10, 2018, 11:42:16 AM
I'm not sure about this, but, if closed loop can't compensate, your open lid may be the problem if you are running the computer at factory settings. Partially close off the air box and see if it gets better.
I tried this and it didn't seem to make much of a change. Not for good or bad.
Tie this in with what S21FOLGORE asked:
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on April 10, 2018, 01:18:25 PM
Do you mean by that the stock air box lid is cut off ? Or are those three items (Termi pipes, ECU, open top air box rid) the ones sold as Ducati Performance kit?
I looked up the Termi Ducati Performance kit when he asked this, to make sure that's what I had. In addition to the pipes and ECU, the Performance Package also lists a high flow air filter.
(http://www.termignoni.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/D088_8-19_Carb-Exhaust-kitA.jpg)
Then it dawned on me. When I took delivery of the bike, it was covered in desert dust and dirt. It came from Arizona and to this day I'm still finding red dirt in the cracks. So naturally, the first thing I did was to buy a K&N air filter and swap it in.
I went to the spare parts drawer and pulled out the filter that came on the bike. In with the old air filter and it is definitely running smoother than it had prior.
My questions are:
Are there good posts that show what an in-spec S4R looks like on JPDiag? (Feel free to point me to other posts if that's been covered, but I wanted to wrap this post up with a possible solution.)
Could the filter swap have fixed the rough running or did I tweak something else unknowingly? I will do the swap again this weekend to see if I can feel the difference.
Can I use JPDiag to measure the air flow difference between these filters? I'd like to set a base line for a good air flow and filter.
Has anyone experienced this? What filters should be used with the Ducati Performance Kit?
What