Ducati Monster Forum

Has been slowly developing for two (three) years....

Last spring: shop took out the lower bolt (bracket to cases) and removed some old heli coil - cleaned threads and bolt - new heli coil and put back together. Quite firm and stable then.

Now it's wiggling again. I tightened the bolt, but it doesn't 'take' and feels 'soft'. Quite sure it's not possible to tighten well.

Is time sert my only option now? Ok to do that? Cases thick/tough enough

Late 90s cases from an SS. 6-7-8 mm spacer between cases and bracket. Don't know the length of current bolt (not extremely short)

You'll need to go bigger than a standard Timesert, as those are actually a whisker smaller than a helicoil.

The 'boss' on the cases is ~22mm diameter (0.866") on the exterior.
I do not have a set of naked cases at hand to measure the boss on the interior.

M10x1.5 Regular Timesert
Tap diameter 0.474"

M10x1.5 BigSert
Tap drill 0.484" (0.010" bigger than M10x1.5 Regular Timesert tap diameter)
Tap diameter 0.552"

Gives you ~4mm wall all around.

Like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003QB1A7C/ref=sr_1_1?m=A2N5EWWITZXTMB

There are other manufacturers of solid inserts, but Timesert seems to be the one that's focused on using the least material.

Drill to remove old thread? Then tap? Big Sert other manufacturer than Timesert?

I'll ask my shop to do it, but need to know a little about the procedure to order them about specifics.

I dont know if you have a Timesert specialist available, but I use a guy who only does that, day in day out. I explain the job to him and its parameters and he does it on site. I like the idea that its his specialty as he knows the product inside out and all its applications to tricky jobs.

Doesn't sound like the Norwegian job market. At all.  :-\ 

, but.... I don't need a sert specialist. I have a Nick  [thumbsup]

Good to have a Nick ;D

Drill, counterbore, tap, install insert.

Don't drill any deeper than the hole is already.

Be careful when the tap bottoms out.
Excess torque can crack the case, allowing oil access to the back side.
Not the end of the world, but unnecessarily added aggro.

Hold as steady as possible while drilling and tapping.
Drill bits that size can be uncooperative in hand drills.

TimeSert is the parent company, and it's also the name of their standard product.
BigSert is their larger outer diameter product, gives you a second bite at the apple.
They sell individual inserts and complete kits with the drill and tap, etc.
For a threaded hole repair done by hand, there are none better.
If you can hold the part in a milling machine or nice drill press, HeliCoils can be successful.
TimeSerts install real nice that way, too.

There may be a similar product that's local to you.
I'm not aware of how far they are distributing the product.

There are other manufacturers of the larger outer diameter solid inserts, they're more agricultural/stationary equipment :
https://www.ezlok.com/threaded-inserts-for-metal
 

Parts and kits are available locally and online. I'd prefer my dealer to offer this service, but I might have to buy a kit and do it myself. That will be the start of my new Time-sert specialist carreer - or not  ;D

This ok?
https://www.mechanicstoolsandbits.com/big-sert-5015-m10x1-5mm-oversized-metric-thread-repair-kit.html?search=big-sert&page=2

Ooops... do I need a tap guide and a T-handle wrench as well?

Yes, that's the standard kit, and it's fine.

You'll need something to turn the tap and the install tool.
Some tap T-handles have a standard square drive (like sockets), should be 3/8" drive in this size range.

The drill and counterbore tool will need a 1/2" capacity drill motor, which most folks don't have.....

The drilling is the truly uncooperative part, that would be the one to most benefit from a guide.

The tapping is a slow process, so there's plenty of time to make sure it's straight, and you can correct as you go.

The largest drill bit I can fit in my 12 volt drill, is 10 mm. Not enough?

It's over 12mm diameter with the tap drill.

You may be able to get a reduced shank on a 31/64" drill.

The kits seem to contain 14mm inserts + minimum 6mm margin for the installation driver = 20mm

Is that hole 20mm deep?

Is it deeper... enough depth for 20mm inserts + 6mm margin?

I've measured a few cases and I get 26-27mm depth for the holes.

Thanks!  [thumbsup]

 [bang] [bang] [bang]  /    :-\ :-\ :-\  /    [coffee]

Big-Sert time today.

Worked well for a while, but I made a bad decision.

It seems someone machined a lot of the outside 'boss' and it's not deep enough for the 14mm insert + 6mm installation driver margin. I didn't think about that as a problem until I checked the tap and how deep it is. Deeper than the insert.

So I was missing a margin for the tap and the installation driver.....

So, what the hell do I do?
How thin can the cast cases be?
Too thin is the answer.

I drilled another ~3mm. No problem. Counterbore ok. Made threads with the tap. Installed the insert: light resistance at first, then harder for a couple of rounds and then light again. All as described. Remove installation driver...

OIL  :o

Side stand and screws back together. No visible oil after riding an hour.


Some Helicoil left overs
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1734/42118215684_437b360d47_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27aQS9u)

Can you see how the 'boss' is almost gone?
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1757/42118211954_df9ae34a68_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27aQS9u)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/888/41025317270_351d8c2eb2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27aQR3b)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1727/42118208094_ddf97e619d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25vgtwo)

Back together, very much better than it was and still dry
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1743/28962946558_36c77be520_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27aQPTC)


 

 (https://flic.kr/p/L8mEXy)

WTF, they milled that boss off.  [bang]

I have trouble understanding why ...  Maybe damaged beyond repair and looked better without.

That's the only explanation with even a shred of sense, but even then [roll].
That's such a titanically irreversible thing to do.
Especially when it's 99.99% sure that the milling was done on just that case half in a mill.
Could've fixed it properly with scarcely any more effort.

When I was younger, I would run over people like that. I actually did that a few years back when they (Kämna) sold me cases (and all related work) which were welded & epoxied, WITHOUT telling/asking me. It ended with my current cases in a settlement. How they dare to do almost the same thing a second time....that is a mystery. Probably a normal calculation of how much damage one unhappy customer can do - or not.

At this point I can't prove they did it, so I'll send them a photo and ask what they suggest as a reason and/or solution. Happy ending is not likely, so I'll try not to expect anything. Knowing how Kämna operates, he'll tell me there is no way to know who/what/why, that he fixed it perfectly with Helicoil, that there is no warranty on anything AND that it's my own fault since I drilled too deep. Drilling too deep was desperate - I could have waited (, but for what?)

Am I right about the risk ...
1. structural integrity compromised, but probaly not serious (monitor for cracks)
2. a drop of oil now and then - thread tape, tribond or similar to avoid leaks

What a sucky and unpleasant surprise for you.

I can't speak to the structural integrity, but perhaps user caution and a flexy stock sidestand can help to minimize stresses and prolong things?

For sealant, I'd be inclined to use the Loctite 510 material that Ducati specifies for the dry clutch basket bolts (with oil on the other side).

BK

This idea would have been more helpful earlier, but sometimes that happens.  :-\

Early sidestand with aluminum bracket mounts from the rear 2 holes.

The proper pivot bolt can eliminate the self-retracting feature.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1786/41051530900_654f0863d2.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25xzPVw)

Shouldn't be too difficult to make a current bracket longer, to use a third hole. Then I could seal off the leaking hole, I guess. The problem is to know if that is needed and if so, to do it in time?