Hi all,
Long time lurker, first time poster!
I've been working on a Monster 600 resto for about 8 months and a couple months ago, I discovered that the engine I had in it was shagged. Without being able to find another 600 engine for a sensible price and a 620 coming up *very* cheap, I'd read about other people swapping between FI and carb motors, so I ordered the Ignitech and got to work.
I've got the Ignitech wired in and firing sparks on each cylinder, but I just cannot for the life of me get this thing to run!
I've tried the following settings in the bike tab, to no avail:
Special Setting - Long Gap Between Lobes-more lobes (48-2)
48 lobes at rotor
Channel 1
Max Advance 20 start 23
Channel 2
Max Advance 38 start 41
And...
Channel 1
18 21
Channel 2
36 39
Can someone chime in and let me know if this is correct?
Once I have everything buttoned up and running, I'm going to do a guide of sorts, to help anyone else doing this conversion. I'd run into issues working out sensor wiring, so if I can give back to the community, that'd be a bonus.
Can you post a shot of your options ?
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=74775.msg1376318#msg1376318
There was a map linked in this thread that should get you going.
I tried that map, but it didn't seem to work.
The other thing I wanted to confirm was the 'Channels' in the Bike tab. Does Channel 1 correspond to the horizontal or vertical cylinder?
I've also noticed that tooth 38 has a dimple pressed into it, so I'm not sure if maybe that bears some significance.
I've had the stator cover off tonight, turning the crank and taking notes on teeth numbers and theorising possible tooth combos, but this has me stumped. ???
Try auto select for channel and see what it settles on. The channel selection is for the communication band between Ignitech unit and laptop iirc. Am I confused between that and bike selection?
Also for bike selection consider how many flywheel or gear tooth trigger points there are and how many ignition pick up coils in the system in order to select from the drop down list. This motor have one externally mounted pick up on the case? If we could see your screen we could help you make an educated guess. Can you post a pick of the drop down options coming up on your screen?
Sorry mate, I can't remember the last time I tuned an Ignitech and it was for example a dual pick up single lobe carburettor bike.
Remember to click on programme after each selection to make it stick or your selection won't be saved.
Speeddog. Would you consider the 620 to be a single pick twin lobe or single pick up single lobe system? How would you describe it?
I'd consider it a single pick single lobe
Quote from: koko64 on September 10, 2018, 10:12:00 AM
Speeddog. Would you consider the 620 to be a single pick twin lobe or single pick up single lobe system? How would you describe it?
so puts this curve
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0wgf9obllibac61/M900_Palero.zip?dl=0
depending on the version of your case it will change by opening the file with Note pad
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/354f525e577bf739b1995913e678d279.png)
Quote from: Speeddog on September 10, 2018, 11:19:55 AM
I'd consider it a single pick single lobe
That and a couple bucks could get you a cup of coffee.
Thanks a million, all! I'm heading home from work now, so I'll try this all out.
Quote from: pepeducat on September 10, 2018, 11:56:24 AM
so puts this curve
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0wgf9obllibac61/M900_Palero.zip?dl=0
depending on the version of your case it will change by opening the file with Note pad
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180910/354f525e577bf739b1995913e678d279.png)
Hi Pepe
This is the map I downloaded from the other thread, but it seems to differ significantly from yours. It looks like the same link, though?
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/lukas86/IMG_20180912_173610_zpsqxgkgryk.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/lukas86/media/IMG_20180912_173610_zpsqxgkgryk.jpg.html)
I'm wondering if this is potentially a wiring issue, even.
I have two of the pins of the cam sensor wired to earth and the other to Pickup 2 (I believe one of them is normally a shield on the stock 620?). I did try with Pickup 1 and hadn't had any luck. I'd then seen a couple of other guys on the net had been utilising pickup 2 and assumed there must be a reason. Yes, I definitely ticked the Pickup Interchange to swap it when I changed pins.
It's definitely getting a signal and I can see spark firing from each plug when they're removed but this thing just does NOT want to start! The absurd advance readings give some indication that there's a setting that's not quite right or the signal being sent to the Ignitech is weak/corrupted/going the wrong way.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/lukas86/Mobile%20Uploads/20180909_211747_zpshva7k0rx.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/lukas86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20180909_211747_zpshva7k0rx.jpg.html)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/lukas86/Mobile%20Uploads/20180908_122254_zpslqclvhyq.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/lukas86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20180908_122254_zpslqclvhyq.jpg.html)
The base advance and max advance numbers do look whacky from a carburettored bike guy's perspective. Carbed 900/750 bike oem base advance in comparison is 6 deg and max 36 (less max advance depending on compression). This carbed bike info may be irrelevant however.
The base line Ignitech maps for carbed bikes appear to be 6-35 deg. I read on bikeboy.org that the higher comp 600's had 32 deg max advance.
So, two things. One, your tps might not be the same as anyone else's. I don't know how ignitech does it, but there should be a way to grab closed and WOT values.
Two, the normal operating state of that sensor is with power, ground, and sense. Usually reference voltage is 5v, but 12v from battery works, also. It's a noisy thing, so if it is kicking back and beating on the sprag while trying to start, try a resistor in the sense wire. Also, put some heat shrink on those connectors, it looks like you have stray solder running across them.
Quote from: koko64 on September 12, 2018, 03:09:38 AM
The base advance and max advance numbers do look whacky from a carburettored bike guy's perspective. Carbed 900/750 bike oem base advance in comparison is 6 deg and max 36 (less max advance depending on compression). This carbed bike info may be irrelevant however.
The base line Ignitech maps for carbed bikes appear to be 6-35 deg. I read on bikeboy.org that the higher comp 600's had 32 deg max advance.
On the injected bikes, it's either 0 or 7.5 degrees initial, and 45 degrees more for max advance.
Quote from: tastybaklava on September 12, 2018, 02:28:47 AM
I'm wondering if this is potentially a wiring issue, even.
I have two of the pins of the cam sensor wired to earth....
~~~SNIP~~~
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/lukas86/Mobile%20Uploads/20180908_122254_zpslqclvhyq.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/lukas86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20180908_122254_zpslqclvhyq.jpg.html)
This may not be all of the problem, but I'd say it's a big part.
Quote from: Dirty Duc on September 12, 2018, 06:41:27 AM
On the injected bikes, it's either 0 or 7.5 degrees initial, and 45 degrees more for max advance.
[thumbsup]
By max, I mean max allowable based on those tooth counts... I don't know what the actual ignition curve looks like on a stock bike on pump gas.
I guess a 620 could use a base advance around 7 and up to 32-36 max advance on a custom curve. Say 10.5-1 compression on pump gas? Maybe 36 deg max advance on premium and 32 if there is only base fuel available. That's the beauty of the Ignitech ay?
How's it goin'? [popcorn]
No luck just yet.
Although, I have another question...
I'm wondering if anyone knows if the crank sensor on the 620 specifically is an inductive sensor or hall effect sensor?
That would change how this sensor is wired in, in that one of the connections would need to be a power supply while the others would be signal and ground, rather than the current config of signal, ground and shield.
Inductive.
Great, thanks mate. That confirms that my pinouts are correct, then.
I'll work on sorting out some shielded wiring to see if that sorts out the issue.
The sensor needs power. I forget the exact specs, it's from like 4-16V.
Ducati provides 5v. I am running the LSR Ducatis with the same sensor at 12v.
I clipped the plug off the end so I can solder directly onto the wires and also so I could see the colour coding / work out the pin outs.
I've found that there's a bare wire running down it (shield), a black wire (earth) and a yellow wire (signal).
After buying some shielded cable, I soldered it all up and I just need to crimp the connectors for the other end, where it hooks up to the ignitech, earth, etc.
I'll post an update soon.
So, I'm confused. The 620 uses the old two bolt sensor, or Ducati uses two sensors that are externally indistinguishable but act totally different?
I have three, they have been swapped between bikes, and only one of those bikes has a factory ECU. It isn't impossible for me to have gotten lucky that they're all the same, but it does increase the odds I'll end up with a VR ass opposed to Hall effect sensor that I won't be able to identify.
From the wiring harness side, there is a black, Brown, and red wire inside the sheath. Off the top of my head, black is ground, +5V is red, and signal is brown.
I don't remember the order of the pins, but it was available on the internet a few years ago.
Nope, mine has one bolt.
Also, the cable pinouts I'd mentioned when I lopped the plug off my sensor cable seem to support the wiring diagram mentioned over here:
https://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/56514-900fi-engine-replacing-750carby.html
I've rewired the sensor using shielded cable and I'm still getting the same result - outlandish degree readings and the bike refusing to even so much as splutter when turning it over.
I've tried two sets of tooth settings and confirmed the wiring is correct.
Here's some screenshots for your amusement...
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/lukas86/Mobile%20Uploads/ducati1_zpsdgg0fk2k.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/lukas86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/ducati1_zpsdgg0fk2k.jpg.html)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc54/lukas86/Mobile%20Uploads/ducati2_zpsrbwhcz3y.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/lukas86/media/Mobile%20Uploads/ducati2_zpsrbwhcz3y.jpg.html)
If your sensor looks like this:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Cg8AAOSwv9hW44Og/s-l1600.jpg)
Then it is a hall effect sensor just like the one I have wired like this:
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/107912333567211282838/6611621913105516962
On the sensor side, black is 12v in, I think brown is sense wire and ground is white (through the ECU in my case). There's also a shield wire in mine.
Sorry you have to click through to see my picture, I haven't gotten around to buying a smugmug account yet.
Hmmm...
I managed to get the plug that the sensor plugs into, with a bit of wire left on it, so I've pulled that back to reveal the wire colours there. It's got a brown wire and a white wire, with the copper inside the black wire soldered to the shield around the brown and white wires.
By what you've said, it sounds like you have the three colours and an additional shield wire.
I'm going to give your wiring a shot though.
Tried out Dirty Duc's wiring setup and got the same result.
I'm getting to the end of my rope with this thing!
Is your Ignitech a Hall sensor one?
"An input is ready for standard inductive pickup sensors used on motorbikes as CKPS. On request, we can also deliver inputs
for HALL type sensors."
http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/manual_sparker_tcip4_v88_en.pdf
I think we're headed down a rabbit hole on this.
The OEM Ducati sensor is *not* a Hall sensor.
Hall sensors trigger on a magnet.
The OEM Duc sensors trigger on presence/absence of steel in proximity to the sensor tip.
Thanks Speeddog - I'd been told the same locally: it's not a hall effect.
Regardless of the ways I've wired it, when the bike 'detects' the sensor, it still gives me these outlandish degree readings.
I've wired it a number of ways and still have had no success.
I'm wondering if maybe the regulator is causing the problem, but it doesn't seem like it would.
I've still got the original single phase reg from the 600 carb motor, while this motor runs a 3 phase stator, so one of the yellow wires has remained unplugged.
Given that it's got more than enough power to crank and fire spark, it leans me more towards the reg not being the issue.
Anyone care to weigh in?
...anyone?
Mmmm, not sure about that.
I've run the opposite configuration.
Yeah, I doubt it's the reg, but I've tried just about everything.
I tested it again today, cranking and watching the readings. It seems as though one of the outputs is giving a sensible reading consistently, while the other isn't. Eg: one is staying consistently under 30 degrees while the other spits out figures like 700, 400, 1500ish
There's gotta be something in the settings/configuration, but I just cannot pinpoint it.
I have just bought an ignitech ignition directly off them, it came with the unit pre programmed for my multistrada which has a sensor like yours... At the moment I cant look at the configuration, but here are a couple of pictures of how its wired. it cam with the correct plug on it. both blue wires go to the same pin in the units connection block
I also have the map that ignitech sent me which I am happy to forward on if you pm me your email address!
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/aaa.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/aaad.jpg)
[thumbsup]
Thanks Buzzer! I did just get an email last week from the place where I bought the Ignitech from, so there will be an update shortly, but I don't want to jump the gun just yet.
Green Monster - you trying to get your post count up or something mate? :P
He's a genuinely helpful long term member who asked Buzzer to help you out on another thread. This is a community here.
Tryin to help: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=76771.15
Buzzer chimed in.
I`ll stop if it bothers you.
Quote from: greenmonster on November 06, 2018, 03:25:49 PM
Tryin to help: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=76771.15
Buzzer chimed in.
I`ll stop if it bothers you.
If it bothers him...keep it up. ;D
Hahaha it's all good, I was only poking fun. I'm incredibly grateful to everyone that's been helping out with this hellish ignition debacle.
WE HAVE A WINNER!
I'd said recently that I would post an update shortly as there was something pending.
After having a chat to Liam at Fast Bike Gear, he'd contacted Ignitech and found that there was a better unit for the job. Liam arranged a replacement for me that is far better suited and looks like Buzzer's one.
I fitted up the new one and started getting popping and backfiring. The previous unit didn't so much as cough. My readings I'd posted earlier were no longer as outlandish as before, so I knew this thing was definitely a step in the right direction.
After $15 of Skype credit, bugging Liam on the phone and picking his brain regarding tooth settings, we checked the timing with a light and confirmed the plugs were firing at the right point.
It wasn't until about an hour after I spoke to Liam on the phone that I had one last thought. I'd been playing around with reversing the coil output plugs on the last Ignitech, switching back and forth when troubleshooting it.
I swapped the wires leading from the Ignitech to the coils back over, gave her a little squirt of fuel into the carbs and cranked...
It sputtered, caught its rhythm and roared into life.
SO, a few tips for future lunatics that want to run a 620 (and most likely other FI Duc engines) with carbs:
- make sure your carbs are good (I'd already rebuilt mine)
- You need an Ignitech TCIP4 v88 that has the cam/crank sensor plug. Avoid one of the 'universal' units as some don't read the individual teeth properly and spit whacky figures out
- to wire the unit, follow this list: <PLACEHOLDER>
- Check, double check and TRIPLE CHECK your wiring
- pull out the spark plugs and check for spark
- This is one of the most crucial: check with a timing light. It'll tell you straight away if the spark is firing when it should. If it is, then check your signal to the coils from the Igni and swap it over, just to be sure.
Thank you so VERY much to everyone that's offered their tips in this thread. You have no idea how grateful I am to each of you for your help. Thanks also to Liam from Fast Bike Gear for helping me get this thing going. The guy really is a mad scientist when it comes to these bikes.
I'll likely start up a separate build thread shortly as this one small saga has been part of a bigger restoration project.
[thumbsup]
[thumbsup]
Quote- to wire the unit, follow this list: <PLACEHOLDER>
Would you clarify this?
The place holder is for me to put in what wire goes where and possibly include images, just to make it even easier for anyone else that's treading this path later.