Ducati Monster Forum

on a monster with carbs, the side of each carb there is a pipe that vents to the plastic box on the side.  Question is, do they vent to a box each side, or just one box?

I am converting a Multistrada to carbs so have no bike to reference to!

On a stock bike they go to a 'pod' on each side.

It doesn't matter, as long as those hoses are in still air. If air flows across the end of the pipe, the diaphragms won't work correctly.

thanks, do you think it would be ok to feed them into a single "pod" rather than two?

On my bike the hoses are just routed up behind the battery. The hoses don't 'have' to be enclosed, as long as the air is still.

One 'pod' should be fine.

You're using BDST carbs for this project? Most use flatslides.

Are you running pod filters or an airbox? The hoses shelter easily behind an airbox or battery box but it's more difficult to find a calm space with pod style air filters. With pod style filters you could affix some of those breather pods to the battery box and run the hoses that way.  Note that the central breather runs to one pod and the baffled breathers (with small canisters) share a common pod.
You should tell us more about your Multi/carb conversion [thumbsup] I think it's worth a write up in the mods section.

https://jtccc.wordpress.com/our-motorbikes/ducati-multistrada/

Don`t think I`ve seen 1kDS converted to BDST, anyone else has?

Thanks for the link...  it remains to be seen how well it runs...  cost was a consideration, the flat slides are expensive...  I managed to pick up son Mikuni carbs for £35 with seized air screws, but managed to free them off OK!

Thanks for the link Gert [thumbsup]. That was an enjoyable read.

Welcome Buzzer. I liked how you went your own way and damn the rest [clap]. What a great build with no stone unturned.

From digital to analogue :D

If those carbs don't meet the engines needs they can be bored and taper bored/ported. I don't know the maximum bore possible but I'm guessing 40ish. Those oem carbs struggle to give a modified 900 what it needs and when it needs it. I can't see why you couldn't build an uber carb at 41-42mm. I would enjoy watching you do it [thumbsup].  Maybe Honda VTR1000 carbs could be modified to fit your manifolds.

Never afaik.
The carbs are underwhelming in stock form, but Doug Lofgren has made them work with extensively modified, ported, hi comp 900 Monster engines bored up to 985.

I would like to see Buzzer build a BDST uber carb ;D.

Thanks for that!  I never thought of using the carbs off the Honda...  they look to be 48mm which is pretty big, and they are cheap on Ebay!  looking at them they would fit if I made some different manifolds, and I do have a length of pipe left over from the Mikuni ones I made...  its something to consider...

can anyone think of any other bike of around 500cc per cylinder that used carbs?

What size carbs did the Honda Varadero (or whatever its called) have? Maybe they are a little smaller and more suitable.

My SR500 had 34 mm Mikuni stock.
Overbore to 526 & Supertrapp full system, 38 mm Mikuni VM was better.
Many Harleys work fine w one 38 mm Keihin vacuum slide carbs.

My Yamaha XV920R had a pair of 40mm Hitachi CVs.
Note, that engine was essentially a pair of SR500 top ends on a single crankcase.

Lessee, roundabout 500cc 2-valve air-cooled with regular slide carb?
36 is on the large end of what my (dodgy) memory tells me.

Well it looks like the Varadero carbs are 42mm....   i must say i am tempted to buy a pair!   I will think about it...  There has been a bit more progress over the last few days...I have mounted the battery under the tank, and put the coils and solenoid on the battery box, which is rubber mounted on four grommets to insulate it from vibration.  I have finished off the mudguard mountings, and also the mounting to support the exhaust.

the silencer has been a pain..  I bought it off Ebay new, the seller described it as stainless steel.  when it came, it looked good, so I stripped it apart and chucked the cone into some thinners...  this stripped all the paint off.  a this point I suspected it was mild steel, turns out it is!  so for now, I have painted it with silver VHT paint and it looks OK.  I may decide to have it chrome, or even black.  the seller was very understanding and refunded my £21!  thought it was cheap!

I was going to mount the fuel tap which I have bought (its fitted to a Suzuki 1000 Bandit)  but there is not enough room for it, so I will have to think again...  I want a tap with a reserve if I can...

I have now started mounting the electrical components and will soon start the the wiring, a job which I quite enjoy.  just got to mount the headlight first...

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/multistrada-2410-3.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/multistrada-2410-4.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/multistrada-2410-10.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/multistrada-2410-1.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/multistrada-2410-5.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/multistrada-2410-6.jpg)

From tourer to hot rod [thumbsup]

So you met the ignition requirements with an Ignitech. Did you use a supplied or custom map? What initial setting you use in the programme?

Looks a lot easier to work on than the Multi 1100 I have stripped down in the workshop.

yes I have gone for the Ignitech unit.  it came pre programmed with a base map and initially I will see how it goes.  However, my experience with cars is that the drive-ability can be improved immensely by going 3D so I will be adding a TPS to the end of one of the carbs.  thats why they are positioned slightly to one side.

here is the map I developed for my old Ford Crossflow.  it improved the way it drove no end!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/edis-map.jpg)

This thread has gone from a simple tech question, to a full on mod thread, so off it goes to Acc & Mods. [thumbsup]

Thanks!   any chance you can change the title to soothing more appropriate?  I will keep it updated as I progress with the build

As koko asked, and I (on multistrada.net I am greenm), would be great if you opened Ignitech software.
We would like to help this guy
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=76643.0
who has problems w Ignitech on a from start injection engine.

You started the thread, so you should be able to edit your first post and change the title to whatever you want.

And yes, please post up some info from your Ignitech unit.

I cant open my unit at the moment as I dont have a working laptop :-(  however, I have posted some pictures on that thread of my connectors... 

Best of luck on the laptop battle!

Thanks for the pics on the other thread.

been busy the last few days making the speedo housing and mounting the headlight.  I am using one of the digital rev counter and speedo's.  this single unit contains all the functions I need and is fully configurable too...  and quite cheap at £25.  it didn't look that good though, so I made a housing to fit it in and keep the wires tidy.

to make the housing I rolled some sheet alloy (couldn't get the right size tube...) and welded the joint.  I then spun an end in the lathe using the same material.  this is an interesting process (and old as the hills!) where you form the metal by spinning it and applying force as its turning.  I used an old bearing on a tube to save marking the alloy.  it came out rather well. 

I really am loving my new welder!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/speedo-housing-3.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/a6.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/speedo-housing-4.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/speedo-housing-5.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/speedo-housing-2.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/speedo-housing-1.jpg)

Very nice work!

Old school spun alloy. [thumbsup]

Any updates? [popcorn]

Nice!

jobs for today has been to put the seat foam on the aluminium tray and sand it to shape before sending it off to the trimmer.  I was able to sit on the bike and get it to the shape that suits me, which is nice.  the trimmer will add 15mm of soft foam on top and contour it in, before trimming it in black.

Best laid plans with the fuel tap…  it was going to go in the plate that fills the hole where the fuel pump fits, but there is not enough clearance so I resorted to remote mounting it.  its actually better as I can get to turn it on and off easier.  the two inlets are so I can come off two pipes in the tank to give me a reserve facility.the tap is off a Suzuki Bandit 1000.

on projects in the past I have always soldered the connections, but this time I have gone for crimped joints,  they look neater, and also as my mate always says you never see a soldered joint on aircraft wiring!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/aa1.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/aa2.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/aa3.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/crimp.jpg)

Helps to have a bazinga crimper.....

been a little while as I am having to take a  break to do some house DIY…  but I managed to sneak in the garage and make a cover for the front of the tank.  It took a while to plannish it out of some 2 mm alloy as its a complex compound curve, but i got there.

I was going to use keyless ignition as I have used on the last few builds, they are cheap and work well… however the brief on this build was as simple as I can make it, and it does not come more simple than a key operated switch!  when I put it in the cover it didn’t look right, so I made a tool to emboss around the switch, which worked quite well…

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/d-cover-for-switch.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/die-for-cover.jpg)

Very crafty [thumbsup]

How are the carbs coming along?

not done anything to the carbs...  will probably leave them as they are until the bike is stripped and rebuilt, save for putting some braces between the manifold

Have you run it with the carbs yet? I'm curious about the jetting requirements for an 1100 and your plans for a TPS.

I wont run it up until its all painted and finished, I have done the basic wiring but need to finish it when its all together, so its going to be a while yet!

some more pictures...  the seat came back from the trimmers, I was very pleased with the results, and its comfortable for me which is the important bit.  not as comfortable perhaps as the original though!

I am getting to the stage where it all needs to be stripped down, and the frame, tank and seat painting.  just a few more jobs to do...

I am very undecided what colour to do the frame and the tank and seat...  suggestions welcome!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/aaaaa-5.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/aaaaa-1.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/aaaaa-3.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/aaaaa-2.jpg)

playing around in Photoshop.... my skills are limited here!  best I can do but it gives an idea...

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/choice.jpg)

Hornet. Yellow tank and seat base with black frame and wheels.

Bottom left. Red with silver frame.

a little bit more progress...  I am almost to the stage where I can take it all apart and have the frame powder coated.  I have decided its going to be silver on the frame, the tank and seat colour can wait a while to decide.

I have finished off the fuel tank plate.  there are two outlets, going to the fuel tap, so I can have a reserve position, hence the varying  heights of the outlets.


that was an expensive piece of tube...  £4.90!  Sold to me

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/fuel-tanks-2.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/fuel-tanks-1.jpg)

We have our very own, one of a kind, unique configurator  8)  (left side colomn)

here is the frame with all the modifications finished and welded, ready to go off to the powder coaters.  Over the years I have used many…  some good, some absolutely dire.  For a few years now I have used a company called Redditch Shot blasting.  the owner is a biker himself, and understands your requirements.  They have a good selection of colours and I have never been disappointed with the results.  they recently did a set of wheels for me, and when I collected them I noticed a ring around the inside of the rims…  he saw me looking…  he explained that the easy way is to hang the rims with a hook through the valve hole…  but this he said leaves a mark, which looks poor, and also can affect the valve sealing.  so he uses a long wire around the outside, which is under the tyre.  Attention to detail, which I like.

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/frame-stripped-2.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/frame-for-powder-coat-e1542811191225.jpg)

while the frame is away I have cleaned up the carbs  and fitted the Dynojet springs and needles which were for a Monster 900...  However the jets wont be suitable for the twin plug 1000cc engine, and need to be a bigger.  it will be a bit of trial and error, but for now I have increased their size... 

I know I will get some stick for this but for MANY years I have drilled jets out!  A lot of people don't realise that some (but not all...) jet numbers refer to millimetres...  so a 140 main jet has a 1.4 mm hole in it.  A 70 idle jet has a 0.7mm hole.  this is quite convenient if you have a set of Micro drills, as with a pin vice you can simply twist the drill through the jet. 

In the old days of Weber DCOE and Delortto DHLA carbs I did this all the time, as did many others!  I always used to check the size of the hole in jets rather than rely on the number in case someone got there with the drill before me!   I can hear people sucking their teeth at this!   ;D ;D ;D  If you have a set of number micro drills, you can also do half size increments...

To clean the carbs up, I bead Blasted them with glass bead.  the secret here is use as low a pressure as you can to clean.  I made the mistake for years to use a high pressure, which shatters the glass beads, turning them to dust, where they lose their peening power and you end up with a rough surface.  I used a few bungs and duct tape to seal them, but of course they still need a full strip and rebuild after.


(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/carbs-1.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/carbs-2.jpg)

I'm not appalled with your method. Just be aware that DynoJet, and Mikuni, use different numbers for the same size jets.

I don't know which uses the id of the hole.

Dynojet mains are numbered roughly ten larger than oem Mikuni for the same size, so a 165 Mikuni will be a 175 DJ jet, give or take a smidge. Factory Pro number the same as oem Mikuni. Theres flow rate Vs hole size Vs I don't know what and different scales used between mfr's and even different carbs by the same mfr. For example Mikuni jets for TM carbs bear no relation to BDST and HS carbs by a mile. I reckon you would know more about this than most of us. For example, why is a TM38 main jet numbered about 100 more units than a BDST? The TM must be flow rated?
I guess 160-165 Mikuni/175 DJ mains are often used in a 900 with open airbox/pods, so you can take a punt from there.  You going to a dyno or using an AFR meter?

The carbs look good. I'm paranoid about crap getting wedged in a drillway somewhere, so I use a sonic cleaner.

AFAIK, Mikuni have both flow-sized and diameter-sized jet numbering systems.

Flow sized I could see being beneficial if they flow-tested each and every one and marked it accordingly.
IMO, reality is that they're not flow tested and thus the numbering is scarcely more useful than diameter.

Hand drilling isn't the most accurate, but with a twin it's not a big deal.
And it's usually heaps better than the alternative.

Yeah, a TM38 245 main jet is closer to a BDST 145 according to Powerbarn. The bigger number must be the flow rate size. Interesting point about quality control.


Buzzer. A thought, since you can fab up your manifolds, ever considered TM 38's on custom manifolds? They are a horizontal flatslide carb so need Malossi style manifolds. While not having an accelerator pump, they have a choke/starting circuit and are cheap for a flatslide. I know of someone who bored them out to 40-41mm for a 900SS.

I have coincided some alternative carbs, but I am not that bothered about ultimate power, its a road bike, so more interested in torque, hence the long manifolds.  though I would see what the Mikuni's are like first

Here is the engine finished.  I have welded some lugs on the sides of the inlet manifolds so they can be bolted together.  the rod sticking out the top of the carbs is a rubber support mounting which bolts to the frame

few days off now until the frame comes back


(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/engine.jpg)

Yes, the long manifolds are great for a street motor, the incredible grunt letting you run a gear higher along twisty roads. I've been riding big bore desmodue motors for over twenty years and still occasionally change down a gear more than needed. I can still be pleasantly surprised at how the motor pulls out of a hole.

so the rebuild starts...  the frame is back from the powder coaters and once again its a fantastic job.  we have several companies local, but their performance in the past has been nothing but shocking!  Instead I chose to travel a 40 mile round trip to Redditch Shotblasters as they are simply the best I have found for powder coat.  the finish and attention to detail on the frame is amazing. 

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/ducati-234.jpg)

As an aside from bike building I have been doing some work on my old milling machine...  A while ago I treated myself to a new one, well almost new...  It had a lot of the features I wanted and while not as big as I would have liked, it seemed to fit the bill.

Well after using it for a month, I decided it was crap, and no where near as good as my old one!  It was nowhere near as accurate, struggled to make decent cuts, the adjustment on the vertical was so course it was almost unusable!  good job I kept the old one!

So I placed the trusty old miller ( i bought it 40 years ago, that makes me feel old!!) back in its place and gave it a bit of love.  One of the reasons I like the new one was it had a full set of collets, my old one had just three, which was very restrictive.  over the years I had tried to get more, but its an unusual size and I have never seen any.  The miller must be from the 30's I think!

I bought a set of ER25 collets and set about converting the headstock to accept these.  An accurate bit of work, it took a while to get the miller spindle in the lathe to run with zero run out.  I managed it though and carefully turned the internal taper, finishing off with a fine stone in the tool post grinder.  Its worked a treat!

I also replaced the threads and nuts on the bed with some off Ebay, which has taken all the slack out, the old threads were badly worn as you can imagine from probably 90 years of use!  the bearings in the headstock were remarkably good though, they may have been replaced before I got it.

So its here to stay, and I will be converting it to accept some digital readouts which are cheap these days.  years ago I converted my lathe to digital using some digital calipers, this transformed its ease of use.  I may treat the lathe to some proper ones as well

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/miller-2018.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/lathe-dro-copy.jpg)

A bit of accurate filing and drilling…  I drilled and tapped the end of the throttle spindle and filed a register on it to fit an adaptor for the TPS.  This links directly to the new Ignitech ignition.  from previous experience, adding 3D ignition greatly improves drive-ability and fuel consumption.

Here are the finished home made inlet manifolds.  They have a slight register so an “O” ring separates the carbs from the manifold, I didn’t want metal to metal.  I also cross braced them...

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/carb-spindle.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/tps.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/inlet-manifold.jpg)

Developing nicely.
I think you`d benefit from koko64`s mods: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=75652.30

thanks, very informative!

here are the last couple of photos for a while...  I will be doing some small jobs and the wiring, something I love doing...  will be making the loom from scratch as so much has changed! Also taking a break over the holiday (unless she goes out !)

then in the new year it will be colour decision...

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/build-date-51218-3.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/build-date-51218-2.jpg)

At least two of Stew's bikes might have a similar color scheme as yours.... which can be copied or developed...

https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Local-Business/Flight-Cycles-124523224251595/

That bike is starting to look really pretty.   [popcorn] [beer]

Thanks!

Onto the wiring...  I looked at the existing loom and realised SO much had changed that it was redundant...  So I am going to wire this from scratch, using my own design of loom.  I priced up the wire new and it was a LOT of money , and although I had some wire from past rebuilds it was limited in different colours.  So off to the scrap yard with a big pair of side cutters.  I came away with this lot for £5!  should keep me going.  it took a while to separate it into single strands of wire, but there is now a right mix of colours!

its bigger than it looks in the picture

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/wire.jpg)

December and progress has been a little slow due partly to the holiday, but mainly as my wife has broken two fingers which means garage time is limited!  I am having to do jobs I don’t normally do!   

I have managed a couple of small jobs…  made some adaptors for the manifold for the vacuum fuel tap, mounted the speedo sensor on the back wheel in place of the original hall sensor (hope the magnets stay in place!) and finally made a new “T” peice for the carbs as I didn’t like the very short connector on the original plastic one. 

This needed to be accurate, so out came the micrometer, which my Dad gave me when I was about 16…  that was 47 years ago.  I have more modern measuring stuff, but this is still the default measuring tool I go to.  its still checks out accurate!

I have started the bike, but I have a problem in that I only have a spark on the vertical cylinder...  this seems to be a problem with the Ignitech ignition.  the guys there are looking at it for me at the moment

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/mic-and-fuel.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/speed-sensor.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/manigold-plugs.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/fuel-union-e1544961433432.jpg)

Managed to sneak in the garage for a while...  still some wiring to finish off, and I have replaced the ignition leads with some new copper core wire.  Been years since I made some up, they seem to last well on today's cars and bikes.

as I need to get the pins out of some of the loom connectors, in particular the handlebar switches I used this set of removers...  they were only a few pounds but over the years they have been used time and time again!  They fit the majority of connectors and allow you to remove and replace the connection pins without damage.

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/ignition-leads-1.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/connector-tool-1.jpg)

That kit of removers look very practical, where do you buy those?

here you go...

https://www.banggood.com/11Pcs-Terminal-Removal-Tool-Kit-Wiring-Connector-Pin-Release-Extractor-p-1179384.html?rmmds=search&cur_warehouse=CN

or

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cable-Wiring-Connector-Pin-Wire-Terminal-Removal-Tool-Electrical-Extractor-Qty11/223114609289?hash=item33f2aac289:g:X7QAAOSwkLJbF3nX:rk:5:pf:0

Nice work. Interested to hear how the tps tuning goes.

A little bit more progress...  the original mudguard protected the chrome stanchion from stone chips...  hence the new alloy protectors.  I have also made up some alloy frame plugs in place of the black rubber ones.

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/2.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/4a.jpg)

Did you fabricate that mudguard, as well?

No, I bought it off a guy on Ebay.  I dont have an English wheel at the moment (watch this space!) and thats the only way to do a compound curve.

Now the bit I am not too keen on…  painting the tanks and seat.  not because I don’t like that actual work, its the mess it makes in the garage.  There are two tanks as I initially bought a Carbed Monster tank, but it simply didn’t fit, which is a pity as I prefer the shape.  Thought I would paint it at the same time and sell it on.  Its almost new, the guy I bought it off said when his monster was new it fell over and dented the tank, so he bough a new one. this has been in his loft  for almost 20 years!  The monster tank will be red…  I already have some paint…  As for the tank and seat…  we will see!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/tanks.jpg)

Yeah, I realize you'd need a wheel.

I don't much like painting, anymore, either.

Thanks!

I decided that as I had not used this particular paint system before I would do the Monster tank first as I wont be using that...  Have to say the paint is really good and goes on really nice!  anyone want a Monster tank, its up for sale soon!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/monster-tank.jpg)

finally decided on the colour after much deliberation....  Orange.  The tank and seat divide opinion, some like it, some hate it...  may as well do the same with the colour!  have to say this paint is really good... but so is my new spray gun...

When I was 20 my dad bought me a second hand Binks Bullows 230, which I have used for over 40 years.  I must have bought 5 different guns over the years to replace it, but always came back to it.  then last year my mate loaned me a gun to try.  Fantastic!  I was shocked to learn he paid £18 for it new, complete with three different nozzles!! So I bought one, its brilliant!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/seat-2.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/seat-3.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/seat-1.jpg)

"Made, not bought" ?

Google says...Built not Purchased.

Same thing. ;)

here are a few pictures now its back together...  some finishing off to do but getting there

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/32836936778_2a9d01138d_o.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/32836936748_b793497f84_o.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/46659226942_8b557b94a3_o.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/46659226902_2b5e1ff120_o.jpg)

Gorgeous  [thumbsup]

 [thumbsup]
It's a wicked looking thing. :D

Awesome!
Tell us about the paint and new gun.
Great post.

the paint is 2K clear over base.  the process is:-

etch prime any bare metal (rattle can from Upol)

single coat of 2k primer with just a splash of thinners  -  this stuff is fantastic

flat it off with 1000 wet and dry, used wet.  if you break through spot prime and flat again

light coat, then full coat of base coat.  when its tacky ( the shine will have gone) a dust coat of 2k lacquer, followed by a full coat.  allow to fully dry over night

flat this off fuly with 1000 wet and dry, used wet.  dry it off and check for shiny bits you have missed.

Dry it off and use panel wipe (cheap and its good, many uses around the workshop)  apply any decals and give those a wipe with panel wipe as well once they are on. (quite important to do.... they seem to have some sort of tack on them)

then a dust coat all over, DON'T aim for a shine... particularly around the decals...  this is an important step because if you are going to get runs it will be off the edge of the decals, and here its difficult to flat any runs off them.  let it tack off... (test on a masked off area)

then a full coat...  tack off and another full coat.  A tip I picked up years ago is to use the gun in one hand and a torch (i used to use a lead light!) in the other.  by angling the beam you can see where you dont have full coverage.

of course with 2K you need an air fed mask...  but my mate paints his tanks outside in the summer and just uses a quality mask, tight on his face.  he gets brilliant results, and if he gets some dust, he flats it out with 2000 W/D and polishes it!  the results he gets are amazing!

the gun is brilliant...  for tanks I use the 1.4 nozzel...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HVLP-Spray-Gun-Kit-Gravity-Feed-Vehicle-Car-Paint-600CC-1-4MM-1-7MM-2-0MM-Nozzle/223141889712?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Da67345ee3f654426a2bf27d8efcb26fa%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D12%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D251250817712%26itm%3D223141889712&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A8410ca8f-18b9-11e9-84da-74dbd18017e0%7Cparentrq%3A514a8f861680a9c560e27cfafff035db%7Ciid%3A1

I have been unhappy with the silencer...  and decided to make one in Stainless Steel, out of one I bought off Ebay, this time re-packable, and also with a removable baffle for MOT time.  Even without the baffle, its acceptable (with my ears!!) with just the resonator now its packed properly.

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/ssdf-6.png)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/ssdf-5.jpg)

The bike is now running, it sounds fantastic!  I balanced the carbs with the vacuum gauge.  I prefer to use a single gauge as its far more accurate…  if ever you have a bank of gauges connect them up to a single vacuum source and check they are calibrated.  most are WAY off!  with a twin I simply use a “T” piece and clamp the pipes individually with a pair of  pliers, alternating from one cylinder to the other…   the clamp in the picture is to damp the needle on the gauge.  Its a VERY accurate way of doing it…  makes a huge difference to the tick over.

Below is the initial configuration of the Ignitech ignition.


(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/vac-gauge.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/ignition-1.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/ignition-2.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/ignition-4.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/ignition-3.jpg)

Well here you go, just a short clip...  I did take it up a very short private road and it pulls well and sounds...  LOUD, but awesome!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGIS60YPn7w



(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/aadsc01466.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/aadsc01465.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/aadsc_0171.jpg)

As always there are snags on a build like this…  I have always been worried about the head of fuel the carbs will get…  it was OK with a full tank, but not enough to give me a reserve position on the tap.  This was overcome by fitting a small electric pump, but this showed a weakness in the float needles in the carbs,  Any leaks here is above the engine so I bought some new and genuine float needle valve assemblies and set the float heights to 14mm with a gauge I quickly made up.  Easier to do if you clamp the float into position with a washer… no leaks after they were fitted…

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/floatheight.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/floatheight2.jpg)

 [thumbsup] bravo.

That map makes want to fit a TPS to my FCRs.

What ignition are you running?   My experience with a car running 2d and then converting to 3d was chalk and cheese...  the difference was amazing.   Hence no hesitation going 3d with this conversion.

Im running an Ignitech V88. I have tuned it and the carbs to a level that is quite good, but of course there are some ways in which Im not getting the most out of the motor.

I would say try a TPS...  I have used the one off the Multistrada...  I thinks I have seen that someone makes a kit to fit your carbs, but I cant remember where... it would not be too difficult to make something i guess...

I had a 150 BHP crossflow in a Westfied years ago...  it was a manic car to drive...  it had a 2D distributor on it, and did 20MPG...  difficult to drive normally day to day, so much so my wife refused to drive it.  I then fitted a 3D ignition, and it transformed the car!  and the MPG went up to over 30 MPG!  have a look here...

https://jtccc.wordpress.com/projects-2/megajolt-3d-ignition/



 

 FCR kits for some makes came with a TPS so getting those kit parts from the importer shouldn't be too hard.

A couple of pictures under the seat….  the alloy rod is the tank stay velcro holding it in place! 

wiring is nice and simple on this one! I mounted the ignition module on stilts with small rubber feet ( i used the original ones from the multistrada clocks) to insulate it from vibration.

This is probably the last post for a while...  I will update again once its been road tested...

anyone interested, this is the link to my blog, where I have my other projects...

https://jtccc.wordpress.com/

But for now, the hunt is on for another project...  I would like it to be another Ducati, but I am not ruling anything out!  so if anyone has anything at the back of their garage gathering dust that they might sell... get in touch!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/46953268381_e5c6c7900a_o.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/46953268371_47b030ffbb_o.jpg)

Very tidy [thumbsup]

Very clean!

Impressive indeed!

You have some serious build skills.

Beautiful job!  [thumbsup]

 8)

That under seat arrangement alone is worth a ten [drool]

I'd like to see the rear light strip (?) moved to the seat cowl. Or under the frame. Let us see the frame!

I managed to get the raw data from some Ducati ECU files.  I have colour coded it to see the pattern of the values in a visual format (isn’t Excel brilliant!)  Across the top is the RPM, and down the left is the TPS values,  The lower values are throttle closed.  these follow what I would expect to see on a 3D advance map.  I hope to replicate these in the ignitech map on the bike.  Just need some decent weather to ride it!


(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/1000-ds-performance-map.jpg)

What`s the jetting of the carbs?
Are they from a Duc 900?

yes, I have used a Dynojet kit for a 900 and increased the jet size by 10% as a starting point

I normally start the hunt for a new project in the summer, ready for the following winter to be sure I have something to work on...  this year its all been a bit quick!  I have not quite finished the Multistrada when along came another Duke... an ST4s this time.  it runs well, bit is a little tatty ( the pictures make it look better than it is...) It was a bargain price, so I could not resist it!

For the moment I am going to sell off some of the bits I definitely know I wont use, and then put it to the back of the garage until the winter, when I will start the build in earnest...  thats not to say I cant do little jobs :-)

not sure what this will be just yet...  time to think about it!

I guess I will have to start another build thread...

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/aadsc01482.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/aadsc01491.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/adsc01504.jpg)

new thread started....

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=77105.0

https://www.mikunioz.com/shop/tm38-twin-mikuni-flatslide-kit-ducati-860-900-desmo/?v=6cc98ba2045f

Spotted these recently.

Been out and had a good run of around 50 miles today, took a few pictures...  The bike runs REALLY well, nice and smooth pick up, and revs to the red line cleanly, I am pleased with the result.  I would say its down on power over the injected bike, but not much, and its enough for me!

A couple of things I need to change...  the mirrors are crap in that position, and also the throttle is too slow, I need a faster action, and will be on the lookout for one next week.

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/46513672705_3115c0cbaa_o.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/40463102313_30cccb4ed6_o.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/40463102303_ccda1688b0_o.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/40463102353_8c7ccdabda_o.jpg)

 [thumbsup] Sounds like fun to ride.

 [thumbsup]

If by throttle action mean response, CV`s are slower than flatslides or injection.

I didnt describe the problem well...  it's more the fact that you need two good handfulls of throttle to accelerate.  I need a bigger diameter on the twist grip.  I have ordered a quick action throttle which should help...

Last time I used CV carbs on my M900 I used a Mikuni Quick Turn Racing throttle for the same reason.  The wrist angle of larger throttle inputs was annoying. Sounds like you got the jetting and ignition mapping very close on first test.

Well the miles are increasing!  Its running really well and I have done quite a few trips out with it, and I am enjoying the ride.  Slight mishap...  forgot I had left the tap on reserve and ran out of fuel!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/ironbridge.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/duke-2.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/fuel-out.jpg)

 [thumbsup]

It's got fun written all over it [thumbsup]

Besides looking great the bike looks like quite the light weight.

it is...  it feels light to move around the garage as well...  I also have a Harley VROD, and if I am honest I struggle sometimes moving it around.  the weight, combined with the big tyre (its a 240 rear  [laugh]) makes it hard work.

Thought I would update as although the bike went well enough, it missed that sharpness of the original bike… I thought it may have been the carb conversion, but it didn't feel like it...

so I checked the timing with a timing disk and a strobe, and guess what, the values in the matrix in the software didn’t correspond  with what was actually happening on the engine!  the bike was actually retarded throughout the rev range.  I think this has something to do with the way the software is configured, I have emailed the manufacturer to see what they say.  As a work around I set about changing the values so I had correct advance using a timing disc and a strobe.  its now running MUCH MUCH better, and feels far more crisp!  here are the before and after maps.  although the second map says its getting 42 degrees advance, in reality its 34. It also ticks over much better...  at the moment the TPS option is off...  I will wait to see what Ignitech say before I do much more

below is a link to a 1 min video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3jxqTXmBBk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3jxqTXmBBk)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/capture-4.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/capture3.jpg)
(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/aaaaduck-2.jpg)

It's been a while since I've fiddled with an Ignitech, and never an 'ie triggered' one, so I'm not sure what all you've done.

Will have to think about it a bit.

One thing to avoid is any 'calculated' advance at idle, at least with the 'carbie' triggered setup.
The actual crank speed at idle varies a lot through each revolution, and if the Ignitech is calculating advance, the idle gets really ratty and unstable.
Has to be pure mechanical timing at idle.

With the 'ie triggered' setup, it may be counting the teeth and have a more accurate crank speed from which to calculate.

the tickover is solid and there is no fluctuation on the timing.  I think its because I have said in the map that if the RPM is between 500 and 1600 then the timing is 10 degrees.  so even if the rpm is fluctuating, the advance remains stable.

Interesting. Of course if the base advance value entered does not match the "mechanical" parameters of the true base advance then the whole map is out one way or another either retarded or advanced. I'm dependent on people smarter then me for the correct base advance number.
Brad Black found a timing delay effect in early units that required compensating for in the map values. IME later versions didn't have this issue, but that's what may be happening here. The same "advance lag" effect will occur if the base advance value entered is incorrectly overstated. Certainly tricky with the EFI to carb conversion. At least you don't have the weak inductive pick up signal at low rpm issue of the carbed bikes.

I saw a similar effect on a carbed model that had the pick ups in a different position to what I was led to believe. This threw my numbers out about 4 deg less advance over the whole curve and made response very soft until I reset the map. I ended up mapping for higher octane fuel and as much timing as I could get away with to get more aggressive response. I sold the bike before fitting a TPS to the FCR's for 3D mapping. The bike has CV carbs now.
You're doing great work and it's good for the likes of me to watch and pick up stuff. [thumbsup]

Interesting.
And strange, a 1k DS engine should 't have 42 at full throttle,
your map in post #89 is correct.
Lets see what Ignitech says.

That's a lot of advance for dual plug heads. Maybe map #89 with a different base advance  to make the numbers true? That is if the advance lag effect of some units isn't present because then you have to add extra as the rpm rises to compensate and get a true advance figure. If Thais is the case then buzzer has compensated for it like Brad found was necessary with some units. It may just be that the base advance was incorrect and holding all the numbers back so to speak, that would be the simplest issue to have. Afaik the advance lag was resolved in later versions and I've never seen it and that includes a mates very early Jurrassic version on a Superlight. The only time I've seen that kind of timing lag is due to the pick ups not being where I expected or the base advance input being incorrect. Buzzer is counting teeth and calculating which is harder than sliding pick ups a few mm each way IMO and I'm guessing his maths is better than mine.

What are your thoughts on this buzzer?

Gert, buzzer has done a workaround to get the timing closer to what you suggested in real terms according to his timing wheel and strobe light. His advance is much closer to oem and the real advance is not represented by the Ignitech map. So either there could be a real lag in advance rate in the actual module or just something off in the set up specs in the software.

I'm curious as to what buzzer thinks is causing this.

Had a response from Ignitech yet buzzer?

I only emailed them last night, but I did have a conversation with Liam Venter who was VERY helpful and has made suggestions....  I need to implement them now but I am away a few days.  will update when I get back

 [thumbsup] Did you buy his manual? Its a cracker. Hats off to FBG who have done a lot of testing to really explore the Ignitech's requirements and potential.

Update, and yes I did buy his manual!  Fantastic!

Liam identified the problem....  the tooth count setting were wrong, it was reading one tooth out...   its a 48 tooth gear, so each tooth is 7.5 degrees, but its a cam wheel so it runs at half engine revs, which means its 15 degrees.  so I was was actually 15 degrees out.  hence I was having to compensate!  no longer, and I have a rock steady tick over.


Looks like the ignitech  supplied settings were wrong!  here is the final map I am using and I have to say the bike runs SO SO much better! I am finally happy with how it runs!

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/final-map-1.jpg)

(https://jtccc.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/final-map-2.jpg)

Great outcome [thumbsup]

 [thumbsup]

And now some Dyno time to get jetting spot on.

been doing quite a few miles on this over the summer....  here is a short video with sound  ;D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfqe5zYf5Kw&t

Looks even better on the road [thumbsup]