Ducati Monster Forum

UPDATE: please see post #13 - click (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=77443.msg1422346#msg1422346)

Hello fellow ducatisti, new here. I recently purchased 2005 S2R 800 with 30k miles on it, I'm loving it. I got a really good deal on it, yeah it needed new tyres, belt/valves service and new dashboard... but hey, I can do it all myself and it's not gonna cost much money, just time. Unfortunately, there was another problem which I wasn't aware of - the clutch.

FIRST SYMPTOMS (might help someone in the future):
Bike used to stall and lurch forward when put in 1st only on cold engine. I was pretty sure its due to sticky plates as bike sat for few months, I was gonna look at it soon. Also it rattled a little while clutch was engaged in neutral, which used to go away when clutch was disengaged - I though it was normal (my first ducati). About a 1,5 months (and 1500 miles) after purchase, bike started dragging with clutch lever pulled in. It 'broke down' on my way to work, I managed to get it to the nearest local mechanic. Yeah, with no clutch, I did sweat a little but it was only about a mile. Anyway, the reason I decided to go to the garage was the lack of time to look at it, and bike needed new tyres anyway. I figured I can pay a bit more to bleed clutch, not a big deal.

MECHANICS INSPECITON (he was useless, skip)
I spoke to the geezer and he said my slave cylinder was knackered. Fair enough, ordered new one, fittet, problem still persists. They spent 6 hours trying on different masters and slaves with no luck. They said then that clutch needs to be taken apart and that it'll take them at least 4 hours to strip it. I said nah, you kiddin, paid £240 labour (they "reduced" price to 4h), bit the bullet and took bike back home.

MY INSPECTION
I opened a bottle of fav drink and took the clutch cover off. Basket seemd to be a bit loose, I removed 6 bolts with springs. Voila! Half a pint later I found that the big 32mm retaining nut was completely loose. I took it off with 1 finger.

DAMAGE CAUSED
Clutch basket was loose and created a gap, so pushrod couldn't lift the pressure plate far enough to disengage clutch - explains dragging clutch. Sprocket thats riveted to the back of clutch basket is completely knackered. Most teeth are badly damaged, two of the springs in the back are broke - that was the rattle I guess. Luckily they didnt fall out... on the bright side, basket itself isn't notched at all. Whole clutch pack looks brand new. All within specs. I managed to find entire clutch from another monster - 2010 696. I hope it will fit. It's almost impossible to find the part I need unless I pay £550 for a new one from ducati-parts. Nah.
Photos:
Damaged teeth (https://ibb.co/t48Ppcq)
Broken damper springs (https://ibb.co/vqgh3Kk)

MY QUESTIONS
1. While I removed the clutch I must have been silly enough to pull the clutch lever in. Also I inserted pushrod back in before it was mounted in the plate and pushed it few times. Yeah... so as I've put everything back together I noticed that clutch lever is stiff and won't really move much. Pressure plate is lifted and looks like the clutch is disengaged, I can push it in but it goes back. I guess the piston is stuck in slave cylinder (didn't check yet)? How do I push it back? Have I just knakcered brand new slave cylinder?
2. How can I fit the new clutch without basket/hub holding tool? I simply cannot find one anywhere, and it's got to be torqued to 190nm. I was thiking to put bike in gear and put something through rear wheel spoke to block it from moving?

Fitment of the 696 clutch, maybe, basket is different P/N, but other major parts are the same.

2010 696 - 19810331A - clutch/primary gear.
                 19020161A - clutch disc set
                 19610251A - outer hub
                 19610241A - inner hub

2005 S2R800 - 19920052A - clutch/primary gear.
                       19020161A - clutch disc set
                      19610251A - outer hub
                       19610241A - inner hub

The slave cylinder has a spring inside it that will slowly push the piston all the way out.
Of course, one can help it along by pulling the lever.
Eventually, the piston bottoms out, and the lever will go solid, if the system is completely bled.
Don't pull on the lever hard, that just strength tests the slave cylinder and it's possible to break it that way.

When you say " Pressure plate is lifted and looks like the clutch is disengaged, I can push it in but it goes back." Is that with the 6 springs installed completely?

There's a couple things to be verified first before torquing that nut up, step by step.

98.13% sure the 696 clutch will fit. Have one laying around from when I decided to go for a clutch without the heavy 'damper' springs (which I have broken twice).

The primary drive gear and the primary driven gear should be a pair (from 'birth'). Are they?



(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/l394/stopintime/Oops/Oops010.jpg) (https://beta.photobucket.com/u/stopintime/p/f7ab1716-4f3e-4f22-94aa-a3d86503fc9c)

Yes, that's with the 6 springs installed and torqued to spec. This is what it looked like when I originally opened clutch cover for the first time (nut was loose), now it looks a little better but very similar (it's a bit more tight, but again, the piston in the slave cylinder might be pushing it as well?):
click (https://ibb.co/MCQLBRZ) /e: UPDATE - this is with the 10mm spacer inside that I forgot to take out hance the confusion, my bad!

However, the basket just sits on hand tight, and slave cylinder needs to be looked at, so I'll check these first I suppose when the new clutch arrives. Would you mind telling me what needs to be verified before torquing this nut? I can't see anything in service manual other than "lock the hub with rare expensive tool" which I dont have, and cant find.


I'm hoping that the difference in part number is just due to these damper springs, otherwise the dimensions, number of teeth etc I hope are the same. If not, I'll send it back to the seller. I'm happy not to have these springs - googled too many horror stories about them!


I'm sorry, not sure what your question is. If you're referring to the picture then yes, mine are fixed together by some heavy duty rivets. English is not my mother language and I'm not really a mechanic as well, so I struggle a bit with technical terms.

That reminds me, I have another question. The sprocket that moves with clutch basket's gear looks different in service manual. It looks like I have 2 separate ones. What I mean is the one to the right of clutch (disassembled at the mo), above oil filter gear. Theres a thin one with springs, and a thick one right behind it. What am I looking at and how do they work?
click (https://ibb.co/c3B7NWJ)

This is the sprocket riveted to the back of clutch basket. Damage seems to be caused by the thinner sprocket with springs?
click (https://ibb.co/t48Ppcq)

Your Photobox album is not accessable.

Clutch tool. I have never used this and I don't know if it fits, but our sponsor MonsterParts do. Ask. https://monsterparts.com/products/ducati-clutch-basket-holding-tool

We have a primary drive gear. It sits on the crank shaft end and is the 'first' gear we see. On these engines it's a 'dual mass' gear = two gears, one with small springs in it. Good idea on paper, but not in real life.

Then we have a large primary driven gear (driven by the drive gear) riveted to the basket.

The drive and driven gear should be a pair from 'birth'. Did you buy both?

Argh silly me, most image hosting websites are blocked on my work PC which is why I used this one. Of course it's not accessible, sorry. I'll see if I cna find alternative later on.

This is not the tool I need I'm afraid, PN is 88713.2423. It looks like a wrench with socket that has 4 pins that fiti n the primary drive gear to hold it in place. Also, I live in UK.

Thanks for clarification, it all makes sense. I'll dig into mechanics of dual-mass gear. It looks like the thinner gear (one with springs, closer to clutch cover) is what damaged the driven gear.

In answer to your question - no, I only bought the primary driven gear. Even if I had the mated drive gear, I don't have tools to replace it; bike's an absolute money pit already so I'll just try to replace the driven gear and listen to any grinding noise etc. Hopefully it'll be fine...

Yesterday I've checked the slave cylinder. It looks fine and piston wasn't stuck or anything. I removed it and measured how far the pushrod sticks out, it was about 35mm. There's about 20mm inside the slave cylinder. I removed the clutch again and made sure pushrod goes all the way inside pressure plate. Checked again and pushrod sticks out about 30mm now from slave cylinder side. There's still ~10mm difference - is this normal, do I just screw in the slave cylinder so that the piston goes inside? I didn't want to force it yesterday so just left in loose, but I'll get the new clutch today and need to know what to do with it.

Round up a couple of clutch plates, a bar and a welder and you have a tool.

Another thing: the last clutch plate has it's own off set slot in the basket.

Noted. Why though, out of curiosity?

I googled various methods to hold the clutch hub while tightening the nut: 6th gear and steel bar through the sprocket, rag between primary drive/driven gears, steel wires bolted to clutch cover and basket, nylon strap wrench... not happy with any of them really. I'll just use some of the clutch plates to fabricate a tool since I've got some extra ones anyway. I'll use old knackered basket as a guide to drill through the plates, then bolt everything together with some sort of handle - that should do.

I received the new clutch today. Finishing work in an hour then straight to the garage. I'm excited and terrified ;)

I don't know / can't remember why (if I ever knew).

 [popcorn]


lol; hope that woked out! following with ya; have taken a couple of duc clutches out but never that nut yer talk-in about so-oooo ... let us know how she worked out...yeay  [thumbsup]...or nay

I've never heard any logical explanation, nor have I been able to concoct my own.

It seems fairly common, though.

 ???

(tl;dr on the bottom)

Right, so...

I fabricated a tool using some steel plates from the 696 clutch pack (mine were in better condition). First handle I made turned out to be too weak and just bent (think it was aluminium - click (https://ibb.co/TkbSKz5)). I went to the local shop and purchased 4mm thick galvanized steel bar. I didn't weld anything, just driller 2 holes and bolted it all together - click (https://ibb.co/nBJhHMS). That did the trick, I torqued new clutch basket to 155nm with loctite (it's meant to be 20% less torque with it).

At first my clutch was disengaged completely no matter what, lever stone hard. It turned out my new slave cylinder bottomed out. Luckilly I still had my old OEM one, which mechanic diagnozed as faulty, so I've put it on, bled and voila. Clutch does engage and disengage! /edit: actually, for a record, the new aftermarket slave cylinder was fine - I didn't realize it had 10mm spacer inside hence all the confusion lol!

Before I fired her up I tried to push the bike in 1st with clutch lever pulled in. I'm not gonna lie it did hesitate quite a lot, so I wasn't very optimistic. I just thought it shouldn't really be doing that - I bled it properly with speed bleeder, no air bubbles at all! I though maybe it's due to cold engine oil. So fired her up in neutral, let her warm up. Turned off, tried to push in 1st again with lever in. Same thing. Smoked fag. Fired her up agian and decided to try and ride her.

And... she's alive! No overly loud clunk when shifting to 1st, no stalling, no dragging, no rattling, no unusual vibrations, no grinding noise. Still not easy to find neutral ;) It's very smooth and seems to accelerate better than ever before. It's like a new bike!

For a record, I only replaced the clutch basket (with primary driven gear). Also I used the 696 springs as they were a bit shorter but still well within the spec so why not (plus one of mine s2r was 2mm shorter than the other 5, whilst 696 were all about the same). I did not replace primary drive gear!

One thing worth mentioning is that the 696 primary driven gear (sprocket riveted to the clutch basket) is thinner than s2r. What that means is it doesn't touch the thinner sprocket on dual-mass primary driven gear. Which I believe is a good thing because they are known to fail too! And, of course, it doesn't have damper springs in the back so again, that's a good thing :)

tl;dr - it works

Right, I rode about 1500 miles since then and it is dragging again. Actually, it was dragging a little bit all that time but it didn't bother me. Few days ago it got worse and bike started to stall more often.

I made another thread but admin merged it so here's the original post:

Long story short bike started dragging to the point it was unrideable - basket retaining nut was completely loose but also primary driven gear was knackered. I replaced the basket (with said gear) and tightened the nut. It kind of solved the problem, but bike still occasionally stalls when I shift to 1st, and it does drag a little bit. When I fire it up in 1st it lurches forward.

It has fresh oil (motul 10w40), I installed shorter springs (still within specs), new slave cylinder, clutch pack is all within specs, pushrod isn't bent. Everything is torqued properly. There's no air in the system.

One thing that might be the cause is clutch inner hub (the one that 'holds' steel plates). It does have some grooves. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is the main cause, if at all, because even if I rev the bike to separate the plates, it still drags. I have tried another inner hub that's in better shape but bike didn't like it. It didn't fit very well (was very tight) and consequently bike used to make a terrifying knocks when releasing clutch, so I went back to the old one.

Can I possibly remove 1 or 2 steel plates from the pack so that the stack is lower but still within specs? Two friction plates next to each other, is that going to be a problem? I'm a little desperate lol.

Also, should I use shorter or longer clutch springs? Which ones help the clutch to disengage easier? Shorter ones, am I right?

I'm running out of ideas, can anyone advice?

Are the plates Barnett?

Nope, OEM.

Clutch spring length doesn't affect disengagement, unless the coils bind, and don't allow the pressure plate to travel fully. If you shorten them too much it will slip, but likely not stop the dragging.

Did this problem start to occur suddenly?

Didn't you have another thread about this?

I merged your two threads. It will be much easier to follow the progression of what you've done so everyone doesn't have to go through the questions all over again.
If I were to shorten the stack by removing plates, I'd remove that outermost fiber disc.

The problem was there but it got worse after 1500 miles. I suspeced my OEM slave started leaking so replaced it with aftermarket one yesterday (bigger bore) but it didn't make any difference.

Yes I made a separate thread so people don't have to read through the whole thing and I got straight to the point. The issue is not a loose nut, it is something else this time.

Do you mean the one that has it's own off set slot in the basket?

/e: I might try to remove 1 friction and 1 steel plate. IIRC my stack height is about 54.5mm and it should be no less than 50mm, so it should still be fine. I'll do it in 2 weeks time as I've got no time now. Good idea or not?
Ignore, it's 52.51mm - can't remove anything as it would be less tahn 50mm. I might get away with removing 1 steel plate but not sure if it's a good idea.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any other suggestions? PO rode with these plates for 10k+ miles so I doubt it will make a difference.

But we'd still ask all the same questions if we didn't read your first thread. This way the info is right there.

Yes.

I don't see how that plate can stay lined up with that slot.

I could have posted a link to this thread instead, just don't want or expect people to read the whole thread only to find out that I've got a separate problem now ;) It's alright though, thanks.


It does though. Pressure plate does not move far enough for it to jump out if I remember correctly. Unless it's meant to do it in which case I don't have enough pressure, but I doubt it, surely there's a reason for the last plate to be in this position? That's what manual says as well, if it could jump out of place when disengaging the clutch what would be the point of putting it there?

That's why I changed the title.

In your picture of the stack that plate is out of the slot. Was that picture taken with the clutch completely assembled?

This pic... https://ibb.co/MCQLBRZ

You're the boss ;)

I think it was taken when the new slave had 10mm spacer in it that I forgot to take out. Ignore it please, it's not relevant.

With the clutch fully assembled properly and torqued it sits in the basket whether the clutch is engaged or disengaged.

Slave with bigger bore means less travel.  I'm not saying this is your problem, just that it will make your problem worse.  What is the stack height of the plates?  Pushrod worn?

That's what I thought as well, maybe it works the same as leaking OEM slave... damn I can't afford another one :P

Pushrod is perfectly fine. IIRC stack is 52.51mm.

I truncated the link by mistake. I fixed it.

Okay, so now we're getting somewhere. Like Speeddog and stopintime that disc with it's own slot makes no sense to me either, but since the manual says so...

If it were me, I'd try different oil first. I understand that moto specific oil is expensive, but we don't know if the issue is stack height, or oil drag. Castrol gets good marks from many for wet clutches.

Once you eliminate the easiest cause, I'd disassemble the stack and measure the steel plates. Ducati often uses both 1.5, and 2, mm steel discs in the stack. If you have access to some used 1.5 mm steel plates you could adjust the stack height to get more disengagement. A half a mm can make all the difference. It's how the engagement is adjusted in a slipper. I'd also verify that all the plates are flat, except for the dished one. A bent disc can cause drag.

I'd probably go back to the stiffer springs if I was playing with stack height to eliminate the possibility of slipping.

That's all I got.

Thanks, I'll play around with steel plates as I've got 2 clutch packs now. I will try to find thinner ones to reduce the stack height a little. I will also check all of them again for warpage etc as described in manual.

"except for the dished one" - hooold on, is there one steel plate that's different? I didn't notice and can't see anything in manual, are you sure it applies to wet clutches and not dry? In wet clutch, first and last plates are friction.

If it starts slipping I'll go back to longer springs.

If none of these make any difference, I'll try different oil. I doubt it's that though, I've only just changed it and I've always been using it on my other bikes with wet clutches - never had a problem.


This is what manual says:
"Fit the last clutch plate (A) so
that is it "offset" with respect to the
others."

Also the 'new' clutch that I bought had last plate like that. Hmm..

Ducati uses a dished plate on the dry clutches to aid in disengagement...works like a spring. It's identified by a punch mark on the teeth.

It may not be included in the wet clutch packs. I don't own any wet clutch Ducs.

If you don't have any thinner discs, you could sand some down on a surface plate using some 180/220 paper.

Don't dismiss the sensitivity to oil of a Ducati wet clutch. It's been a cause too many times with oil that worked fine in other bikes...and I know you say you have all the air out of the system, but you'd be surprised how many times a bleed fixes a clutch that's dragging.

Don't think it's included in wet clutches... phew ;)


Thanks for the advice!


Fair enough, which oil works best with wet clutches, any suggestion?


I'm 100% sure there's no air, it's bled properly with speed bleeder. I also took it once to the mechanic who bled it for mee free of charge (when changing tyres) with a proper pump and it was still the same, no air bubbles.

Might be worth it to bleed the clutch again.  One trapped air bubble is all it takes.  In theory bleeding is easy.  Real life?  Not always.  

Some helpful hints:
   Try to position the bike so the master is as level as possible.
   Pump slowly.  
   When done zip tie the clutch lever to the grip.  Let sit overnight.
   Google back bleeding, pick a method and try it.

Hmmm...dished plate on a wet clutch...Speeddog to the red phone!

Castrol 4T...Klotz. In theory the Motul should be fine, but lots of things are theoretically fine, but don't work.

I've seen too many times where clutches are 100% air free, and there's a bubble trapped at the master. It might be worth getting a third hand and cracking the banjo bolt at the master. You might be surprised. Ever notice some masters include a bleeder? ;)

Fair enough guys. I'll order banjo bleed nipple for my master, it seems to be the cheapest option and it won't hurt so I'll start with that ;) Anyone knows what size/lenght/pitch is it? nevermind, found it - M10x1

Thanks for all your help, I'll keep you updated with the progress. That's in ~2 weeks time.

Pretty sure they're 10 x 1.0.

Don't start it up in gear, just don't.
It's unsafe, puts extra load on the starter motor and it's gearing, and extra wear on the clutch.
There's just no reason to do it in normal starting.
The *only* time you should is if you've just stalled it and you're in a dangerous situation.

When the engine is still cold, it will jump a bit on first shifting into gear, and will drag a little.
When warm, it should be fine.

Larger bore slave cylinder can cause dragging as it doesn't move as far for the same pull at the lever.
APTC clutch is not a hard pull, so OEM bore size is best IMO.

Check to make sure all of the steels and friction plates are flat.
Dry them off first.
Make a sandwich of the steels, pinch one side and look for gaps on the other side.
Do the same with the frictions.

I don't remember seeing a cone steel on the APTCs.

Orient all steels the same way, they're punched from flat stock, and the edges on one side will be slightly rounded, other side sharp.
I don't remember if the steels have any feature that will define the clocking/rotational orientation, if they do, match that as well.

Stack height won't effect dragging.

Occasionally, APTC clutches will slip, that can be fixed with shims.
Do not over-shim, as that can coil bind the springs.
There's sufficient hydraulic advantage in the master/slave to bend/break/overstress parts if they coil bind.

Raises hand.

I disagree. ;D

But my logic is likely flawed.

I'm here all the time, so by definition I'm OK reading flawed logic, and I've certainly posted some of it myself.  ;D

I'll restate:
Unless the stack height is so large that the springs can be coil-bound by pulling the lever, thus restricting travel, stack height does not effect dragging.

Don't forget reduced movement of the push rod due to a larger bore slave. ;)

I couldn't agree more, I never do it unless I stall in the middle of the road with cars moving. In this case neutral is impossible to find unless i move bike back and forth etc so it's just safer ti fire it up in gear and go. My idle is set very low (another thing I'll need to sort out...) and because clutch drags, It's hard not to stall it in stop and go traffic (yeah, excuses).


I know (not trying to be cheeky!). Mine drags when it's warm as well.


My OEM is leaking, and aftermarket is 30.5mm. I guess this is where the problem is then? I read a post on this forum and one said in his experience, anything larger than 28mm will cause a drag. OEM is either 25mm or 26mm IIRC.


That I'll do ;)


Hmhh that's one thing I disagree with, surely if stack height is 2mm or so lower, it should be easier to separate plates? Especially with slave that doen't move the pushrod as far.

Anyway, to summarize, if cleaning/checking the clutch pack and reducing it's height, and bleeding the system through master doesn't help, then I guess it's my aftermarket slave. I bought it as I desperately needed one and it was 'local'. Looking back I wish I bought one with smaller bore... but it said 'fits s2r' (well, it does) and I like having a longer friction zone. Not bothered about pull, OEM is light enough for me.

Right, I bought OEM slave in the end. Found a used one taken off s2r with 5400 miles on it apparently for decent price. I'll see if that solves the problem before pulling the clutch again. Fingers crossed!

I had written a bunch of stuff in reply, but honestly it was a waste of effort.

The bone stock configuration in proper operating condition will not drag and will not slip.
It's perfectly functional.

So changing stack height and swapping in a larger bore slave and longer springs etc etc is a waste of time.

Y'all have fun.

I don't think it was a waste of effort at all!

It might be bone stock configuration but remember I pulled the clutch a few times already, and the basket is from another bike. Maybe there is a problem in there, who knows. And even if not, it's good to know these things for the future.

I hope the OEM slave will fix the problem, otherwise I'll know what to look at. I'll keep you updated.

Thank you all!

UPDATE:

It works! :) Clutch doesn't drag at all. My OEM slave was leaking, aftermarket has too big bore (30.5mm) so it was dragging. I installed new OEM slave and everything works fine.