Ducati Monster Forum

 :'( How do you broach a subject like this without being a preaching self righteous bastard???? ....especially when you know you're wide open for a charge of MAJOR HYPOCRACY!!!!???..oh well, here goes... We've all had our momments on the road or racetrack....we've all known fellow riders who got maimed or worse.....we know about that stuff, all of us..................BUT in the last week I've ended up with one Duc Bro in RNSH with severe head and other injuries, and another who's funeral we'll be attending this week.........................If we're going to have a big group of riders attacking the Putty, we need to just bloody, sort of, find the balance between fun and roos/coppers/shitty road surfaces/4wdrives and eachother, especially when the going gets tight and busy etc....................we're here for the fun right? ...so lets take care... (sorry) Kind regards, Aunty [bang]

Point taken!

Fair call

Mal I know what you're saying, it is never good news to hear about other motorcyclists being hurt/killed.
Even worse when you know them, I heard about these guys yesterday at the Superbike school course and I feel terrible when I hear that sort of news.

Can I say that I think our group however big or small is pretty well behaved, I have been riding with most of these guys for 18 months
in which time I have learned lots of skills and moved up in the pack from tail gunner to riding closer to the pointy end.
I have managed this not by going faster but by improving my skills and learning about what I need to do or not do on the bike.

When we go out in a group of the size this weekend might be (12-15) attacking the road is very rarely on any of our minds.
Sure there are different speed riders with-in the group and we all ride at our own pace to get to the next point.
These are just my general observations of our riding group, but I do take your point and I think we should all be in that mind set when we are on the road. Being in a big group or a small group, there are no air fences on your fav corners and no flag marshalls waving flags for upcoming danger.

cheers
Matty...

Statistical certainties? Well.... not so sure about that. Does that mean if I go out I've got a 1 in x chance of being maimed or killed like our guvmint reckons?
I like to think that by riding within my limits and avoiding those areas where the boy racers play, my "odds" are greatly improved. I'm not the best rider in the world but have managed to survive 25 years of riding intact, so that surely means I'm doing something right. Sure we can learn from our mistakes, but that one mistake can be fatal, learn from others, talk to experienced riders, do a course, a lot of it comes down to attitude, there's old riders and bold riders but not many old & bold riders.

well stated Brimo. After two courses I am feeling more confident on the road.
Not in going faster but that I have tools and actions I can practice to enjoy my riding more while staying within my comfort zone.

Well said Brimo.

 [thumbsup]...yeah, its all totally cool, I meant that "statistical certainties" move in both 'directions', as it were....and....the Putty seams to be one of those roads that "changes", more than the others?? ....it's rarely the same, the surface is one of the most variable I've experienced.....ride safe, Aunty  ;D

In one sense he _is_ right. As a group, motorcyclists are about 10 times more likely to die in an accident than car drivers... There _is_ a statistical certainty that a dozen or so motorcycle riders are going to die on the roads in NSW every year.


That's the trick - make sure you're not riding like the average of "motorcyclists as a group". There's a _lot_ you can do to make sure your odds are way better than "the average motorcyclist". As Mal points out, slowing down is one of the biggest ways to improve your odds. Rider training is another one, but you need to stay aware of the difference between bike control and roadcraft - there's no point going to superbike school and learning to get your knee down, if you then go out and do it on blind corners. A friend of mine says "the best bit of safety gear you've got is your brain" - she means you always need to be thinking while your riding - another old saying is "never let a bike take you anywhere you brain hasn't already been a few seconds beforehand". I know for _me_ most of my major scares (and one of my two crashes) were mostly due to me not paying attention - you need to stay on top of that, 'cause getting that wrong can easily kill you. To put it more harshly, "Motorcycling is an endeavor where mistakes are paid for in meat." (I think that was Boris from AMCN)


Indeed, it's often fruitful to watch and talk to those people you meet who've been riding much much longer than you have, and work out the attitudes and skills that've kept them safe.

Sorry to hear about you friends woes Mal...

big

i don't want to come across as flippant but i'd like to add a couple of things, and i am truly sorry to hear about your friends.
crashing a bike sucks, whether you walk away or get carried, but, every time i've come off, whether it was judged to be someone else' fault or not there is always something in retrospect i could have done different/better. maturity and experience are invaluable on a bike, and with that comes the knowledge that it's better to get home last than not get home at all, unfortunately, too many younger riders find out the hard way they're not as invincible as they thought. remember, there's not enough time to learn everything from our own mistakes so lets learn from others.


paul.

As Mal points out, slowing down is one of the biggest ways to improve your odds. Rider training is another one, but you need to stay aware of the difference between bike control and roadcraft - there's no point going to superbike school and learning to get your knee down, if you then go out and do it on blind corners.

big


Big I do agree, having just done Level 1 of SB school and also recently done the advanced course of stay upright, rider training is very valuable no matter how long or short you have been riding. The combination of them gives you vital skills in bike control and road craft that you can apply to the road.
Personally I also think that some people are made with a riders brain and some people just ride bikes and survive. Observation and anticipation are my most valuable items on the road. They help me to react before a situation becomes dire. I did manage 7 months and 10k as a bicycle courier in London without a scratch and many that I worked with didn't.

Matty...

Aunty,

Our thoughts are with you.  It's times like these that the reality of the potential harm that this pasttime can do to us hits home.
Stay safe all.

Zakly Matty..... Its no good being able to ride like a God but having the concentration level and attention span of a brick!! You have to be able to look, gather information about whats going on around you as quick as you ride and act upon it BEFORE the shit hits the fan. WE have control if we choose to exercise it, but its more convenient and very human to blame everyone/everything else for our problems!!. [roll]
I hear you Aunty, and I feel your pain and frustration, after 40 odd years of relatively unscathed riding I have lost some friends also, you have to use their situation as your own learning experience and ride accordingly.  [moto]
This is one of the great things about these forums, people can gain some release by writing their feelings down here and getting support from the members. [thumbsup] ;D

I will put this as politely as I can, yesterday I make the beast with two backsed up.

Apologies for the length of this post (but ya don't have to read it).

The ride was going well for me, probably the smoothest I have been, having a ball and 'into it'. But I think an unexpected stop played havoc with my mind (yeah, yeah I know small mind, wouldn't take much). Before I explain what happened I will let you know what I think went wrong as I have probably over analysed the situation now so I think there were a number of things contributing:

- the pause in riding as I mentioned seems to have broken my concentration just enough
- the fact that I knew it wasn't too far from our stop until the next one at Broke (only about 10km I think) probably made me switch off a bit
- the more restrained pace for that next section, probably 'helped' me relax
- the fact that the Boss was back directly in front of me and I was probably concentrating more on her rear end than I should have
- I was carrying a bit of a headache from lack of food and the noise my companion was making on the commute down to the kick-off point

So basically what happened was I ran wide on a corner (no line markings from memory) at possibly the worst time - with an oncoming 4WD headed right for me. I think all the things above in their own little way contributed to my make the beast with two backs up, but also prevented me from taking the corrective action which I know I should have. If the 4WD driver was not paying attention it could have been a whole lot worse for me - he/she was able to give me just enough room to avoid contact .... and I do mean JUST enough. I think if there was any kids in that 4WD they will never be allowed to ride.

Big apologies to Craig for having to see it, certainly didn't help with his nicotine addiction and he probably still can't believe there was no contact made.

Now if there is anybody left this far into the post I just wanted to say how easy it is to lose 'just enough' concentration for things to go horriby wrong - any one (or more) of those 'little things' mentioned above could have casued the end of me. I hope none of this comes across as making excuses I just wanted to voice what I think led to the situation (for general awareness) but I know it was a situation I put myself in and it was my make the beast with two backs up.

Ride safe everyone, please.

Guys,

I was the rider directly behind the DOCNSW guy (Nigel) who is currently in the RNSH with severe head injuries. It was the most horrible thing I have ever witnessed. I can tell you:

- He is a very experienced motorcyclist
- He is one of the safest riders in DOCNSW
- We were on a perfectly straight road
- There were no intersections
- We were cruising at approx 80 kph

What a car did was totally unexpected. He pulled off to the side of the road and then suddenly decided he was going to come back on to the road and turn right (turns out he was 4wd'ing and looking for a dirt track), right in front of Nigel. I have replayed the accident one thousand times and I am sure very few motorcyclists could have avoided it. It was totally unexpected and his skid was quite short before he ploughed right into the back of the 4wd.

All I am going to say is you can decrease your chances of having an accident but you need to be aware there are going to be situations you cannot avoid.

Please take care and look out for any possibility whatsoever. Believe me, these things happen from nowhere.

Well you're here to post up in one piece, so not a complete make the beast with two backs up, was it? 

You're by no means alone, I'm sure all of us have had moments like these...
Sounds like you've analysed why it happened, but have you thought about what your reaction was at the time?

Did you chop the throttle and stand it up, try to roll it on and lean it over, or perhaps don't remember cause it all happened so fast..( sounds like maybe the first option)

Whist its a hard book to read, Keith Codes Twist of the Wrist II helped me with working though what happens when I get myself into a situation. . Basically it helped me to work though my survival reactions and learn to slowly trust the bike and it capabilities.. I used to ride a lot by myself when I was 100m away from the RNP entrance, and I'm sure my riding has gotten worse in recent times cause I used that alone time to practice...

I plan to buy a few more books and do some more reading, followed by practice when time permits.. In the mean time, I need to remember to ride well within my limits. On a group ride, it's really easy to forget that, particularly when you are having a good day...

I had a moment on the ride too - I got distracted  by the slowing traffic in front of me and negated to see the patch of gravel under me and the back end went for a nice little slip n slide, with some foot down corrective action on my behalf to get me back on track (mmick can tell you about it - he was right behind me!). Just goes to show you it doesn't take much..

We all have our moments on the road they just seem to happen at the worst time e.g.
: 12 seconds into the vid, just a small one but another 6 seconds later I would have found my self in a big situation.
It was a un familiar road, wet, cold, to fast and BIG AL's back yard. The inportant thing is that we know we are pushing the limits in these situations it will always keep us on or toes, it would be worse if you thought you were invincible.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5_7EERWnU
 

The wise, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come. When in a state of security he does not forget the possibility of ruin. When all is orderly, he does not forget that disorder may come. Thus his person is not endangered, and his States and all their clans are preserved.

All true guys.

Just to clarify I was certainly not pushing it when the incident happened which I think made me a bit too casual.

And yes I stood it up when I realised I was gunna run wide, was barely past the c-pillar when I knew what I shoulda done.

Shortly after (again at a reasonable pace, but certainly more focussed) had another moment mid-corner when the front hit something and slid while I was banked over - damn thing nearly pulled my tricep out of my jacket. Hurt like hell and probably would have improved my confidence if it had occurred independently 'cause I instinctively did the right thing (but again I was probably lucky).

Hey Mark,

      Thanks for sharing and I would have to agree with Nick, it couldn't have been that bad a screw up cause you are here to tell us about it.
Concentration is vital when on a bigger group ride like that no matter if you are having a go or just keeping things at your own pace.
I still found myself wondering a little in the mind at some points. And even after just doing a Superbike course on Monday previous I found myself many times backing off a little mid corner. 
When I felt I was carrying too much speed, instead I should be trusting the bike and "myself" that if I carry this line I will make the corner.

Happy you made it through and are here to talk about it.
Practice doesn't make perfect it just makes you quicker at reacting to situations that arise while out there, sometimes as Gianni said you just can't avoid them.
But sometimes if you are practiced enough you will react faster to what is in front of you and not cross that line to be in a worse situation.   

Riding a track means using an environment where as many of the variable as possible are negated except of course the "Human Factor".

On the road the variables are many and varied and CANNOT be negated, except by the road users choice of speed,skill and level of attention to the other "Humans" and the level of attention and skill that the other "Humans" are using. As well as the road and its design, condition etc. :(

If you got out of a situation unscathed, would it not be fair to say that your chosen speed was such that it was within your level of response and skill to cope with, and gave you TIME to react effectively?? And that is what is required after all aint it?? [thumbsup]

Go beyond that and the result can be disastrous. As is seen often when the "group competition" red mist arises and at the usual fave bike routes all over the Country (World) :'(

Over the years I have done a fair bit of group riding and I tend to prefer now to ride by myself or in small groups of known people with a like minded attitude. Have fun, enjoy the ride of course but ride with "getting home safely" well in mind. [moto] [thumbsup] And I stay away from the usual places where all the "boy racers with no brains hang out!!" [bang]

There's that old quote about motorcycling (and probably most other dangerous pastimes):

"You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck."

Like Goldie says, we've all done similar things (most of us probably without the 4WD smack in the danger zone), the important thing is to _learn_ from it. Work out what you did wrong, and what you need to do in the future to ensure you don't do it again.I think one of the most important things you need to learn about riding is how to recognise when you're starting to get tired and inattentive - as soon as I notice _any_ of the signs, I back it off a lot - not just to 90% or 80% but right back down to 30 or 20% - I consciously give myself a _lot_ more time to think, and I concentrate on thinking about my riding. (and, if needed, I stop and take a break)

big

So true Big.
Since Vince mentioned it a while I kinda follow his adage as well.
Go hard (as you wish) till lunch then back it way off and just get home after the break.
Once we stopped (for some time) I took it well easy on the way back to Warriors.
Although Nick thought I might not have been, I was going at a much easier pace after the break.

Also as Big says (and you've said it yourself) know what you did wrong, learn from it and try not to make the same mistake again.
We all make them but if you don't learn from them then you will most likely end up doing it again.
Everyone has different limits and skill levels, you were well inside yours otherwise we would not be talking about this.

I dont think that you have 'over analised' anything. In fact I have a very big think about my ride the day before and also leading up to moving off on the bike, I wont bore you with my thought process, but I do this on my rides just to make sure that I am in the right frame of mind, I also find being in the pack can sometimes be a little uncomfortable, so depending on the day I either drop right back or drop over to the front. I also watch other people's riding styles and see if I can glean any thing from them good or bad, as in, fark, I wont do that, cos he nearly hit that fourwheel drive, or gosh that looked like it worked looked real smoothe. Anyway learn from these events, dont stress, and enjoy.

My2c




                                                    Mmick

That’s right Matty, I use the same rules for every thing Fatigue is one of the biggest causes of accidents in any sport. As the sun starts to go down so dose “our” my ability to concentrate and react.We get tired road conditions change every thing starts to go down the scale.
A full day of riding takes its toll on anybody no matter how fit you think you are.

My rule and theory to keep my lucky bag full.

And a good one it is.
I have thought about it often.
And used each time I have been out since you mentioned it.

Nah, I knew you were off the pace, I was still with you at the end!  [cheeky]

In all seriousness, I agree with what Vince was talking about - I tend to ski hard in the morning (with fresh legs) and go any do the easy stuff after lunch. Not sure why but all I can think about is snow at the moment  [thumbsup]

You’re a snow junkie Nick I bet you get excited when you open the freezer door [laugh]