Ducati Monster Forum

"Mechanics see ethanol damaging small engines
Fuel blend, already implicated in high food prices, linked to rise in repairs "

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/)

argh!

I feel you.  I HATE ETHANOL.  I use to drive from gas station to gas station to look for 100% gas.  Every station that started to put ethanol in their gas was put on my mental shit list.  Now i have no choice.

It's not like this association would gain anything by lying about this...oh...wait...   [roll]

Oregon mandated all automobiles use ethanol mixed fuel (E10).  Fortunately, there is an exception for motorcycles and other small engine applications.  It is just difficult to find a gas station that carries the good stuff now. 

We don't even have a choice here in Hawaii. Gas is all a blend now and all stations carry it. Mandated by our (cough) legislature.

I emailed the Ducati distributor in Australia and he stated that Ducati's should NOT use ethanol blended fuel.

I'm starting to have the same trouble finding normal fuel, went into a BP yesterday to fuel up only to find no normal unleaded bowsers.

Got back on my bike and rode out.  :-\

So whos going to invent a Ethanol De-gummer solution that will be used in all gasoline engines that were engineered prior to 2008?

IMHO ethanol blend is going the way of the dinosaur very soon. Too many problems with food shortages worldwide which is thought one of the unexpected negatives of ethanol production, not to mention increase in prices of not only corn, but wheat, rice etc.

Do a google search and loads of hits from reputable sources cite the many probs with use of ethanol.

Chris

If I am nto mistaken, using StaBil (or Startron or E-zorb) in your gas prevents the gumming to a great extent.  Someone speak to this?

E10 (gas w/ 10% Ethanol) has been ubiquitous here in MN for years.   I really am not happy with the stuff.

For instance, I've burned up a 2-stroke lawnmower and have had numerous fuel-system clogging issues in my other small engines.  [bang]   The anecdotal stories (in the OP's article link) ring very true to me.

ducatizzzz-Sta-bil (fuel stabilizer) will help.  I use it in any fuel that doesn't get used immediately.  But it's not a guarantee that you won't have ethanol-related issues crop up.  Especially in vehicles/engines that get stored for a few months at a time (boats, motorcycles, etc.).

- The worst 9 words in the English language according to Reagan were "I'm with the government and I'm here to help"

Worse than that, on older vehicles you can run into fuel system compatability problems, not just rubber, but even fiberglass tanks.

I wish ethanol would just go away.  I think I will have to tear all my small engines apart.

Fixed.

The biggest problem with E10 is to 2-strokes.

For years and years I've been using MAXIMA Castor 929.  It is compatible with 0% to 100% alcohol fuel...
Why?  -Because it smells good, protects good, and doesn't smoke too bad... and it smells good.   ;D

My Lawnboy mower is 13 years old this August and has NEVER had the sparkplug out of it.
Starts first pull.

I now use E10 (because that is all that's available around me) in everything.

I think much of the problem is people can't get away with the CHEAP LUBRICANTS they once could.

The Maxima is spendy... but I've never had any gumming whatsoever or engine failures either...
And I have weed eaters, leaf blowers, hedge trimmers, chainsaws, etc, etc...

FWIW

There is a noticable differnce running the S2R1k on ethonal blends and 100% gas.

Ethonal makes the bike run like shit. Too bad it is all I can get...

so if ethAnol is all you can get, how do you know 100% gas makes it run better?

i've run a variety of versions, pure gas and e10 and the difference is barely noticeable.

of course, i've always put a stabilizer in the tank with gas which i think prevents the ethanol from dissipating as fast.

Because I've riden my bike out of town before.

It should be remembered that 10% alcohol in the fuel leans the air/fuel mixture out about 4%.

If your bike was on the ragged edge of running OK/not OK with regular gasoline it may experience some problems.

In any case fattening up the mix however you choose should make any issues go away.

Of course you're going to get less mileage either way -but that's another issue.

I know this is an old thread - but saw this link on the 851/888 forum and thought it was worth posting......

http://www.fuel-testers.com/list_e10_engine_damage.html (http://www.fuel-testers.com/list_e10_engine_damage.html)

I wonder just how lame/blind/feeble the gubmint testers must be to declare "no problems" using e10 - and then give e15 a pass too. 

Here in MN two years ago, the Governor was involved in one of those scam studies by taking the study results to Washington looking for more funds to increase biofuel production in our state. This was after the study was exposed for being a complete fake. The study was performed by the University of Minnesota. After some investigation, it was discovered that most of the data was made up and guess who was in charge of the study, and signed off on each of the reports that made up the study? That's right, the president of the biofuel industry...hmmm, unbiased, scientific, peer reviewed work going on here? Nope, a study that was a lie from the beginning, and our governor supported the whole thing. Gov. Tim Pawlenty...thank you.  >:(

I will tell you from my professional experience that all biofuels are horrible. I'm in research and development in a big filter company. I work with fuel filtration and biofuels are a complete nightmare on so many levels. Your first line of defense is filtration and water separation and with biofuels you can forget about water separation happening. This junk holds onto water like you would not believe. I can also vouch for the other issues that are on that report in the link above. it is bad, bad, bad stuff. We should be demanding that it go away.

Al Gore (biggest fraud of all time), himself just spoke out against ethanol and stated that it was a mistake. The world has been lied to long enough about the danger of man made global climate change. We need to push back. Follow the $$ trails, it leads back to to the same suspects everytime. This is not going to go away unless we fight back. Biofuels are just one part of the big lie that's been forced on us to make someone truckloads of $$. Enough is enough.

Diesel too?  No issues that I knw of except a higher gel point which is easy to remedy with winter blends

Especially Diesel! That is actually worse. Newer engines are are tighter tolerances than ever before, and injectors are going higher pressure all the time. Some new diesel engines in trucks and construction equip. are extremely high pressure injection. This is starting to cause serious problems because you can't have any contaminant or water go through those injectors. Bulk fuel filtration/water separation is being looked at now. The idea is to filter the fuel better before it hits the trucks and equipment. One of the problems with diesel as you stated is the cold weather issues. That problem is much, much worse with biodiesel. Here in Minneapolis, we had hundreds of school buses stranded last year one day because they would not start. Of course, they are forced to run on this crap.

People that buy into these systems to refine their own biodiesel have a lot of issues. it works ok on older engines, but you cannot run that homemade junk through newer engines...no way! It's the treehuggers with the old Volvos that can pull it off, but that won't work forever because you can't keep those old cars alive indefinitely.

Diesel is much, much more vulnerable to the issues presented by biofuels. I'm telling you...the filtration industry is working hard to combat these issues. We see the effects of this garbage and strangely enough are presented with an increasing market demand to fix the issues. It's opportunity, but at the same time very frustrating to see the public lied to all in the name of making someone truckloads of $$. This can't go on forever because the product is so bad and takes so much subsidy money to keep it alive that it will fail. We just need to help push it off the shelf faster.

The Ducati fuel tank swelling issues are nothing. You should see the damage being done to these big diesel engines! They are mega expensive too so fingers crossed that this will die soon.

I'm going to close with some food for thought. We have been told for a while now that we are killing the planet, and we need to buy into these alternative energy sources. We have been scared into believing it and have allowed legislation that is not only costing us way too much taxpayer money in subsidies, but is destroying products that we purchase, making some very crafty, corrupt, deceptive people wealthy, taking us down the wrong path, and not dealing with our foreign oil dependency like we should. These people have been exposed time and again for the frauds that they are but the public has been so scared by their lies that we have not stopped them yet.
We have to realize that there is no magic bullet solutions here and that there is a tradeoff with all new sources of energy. I'm all for alternative energy sources, but we are forced into these by people with agendas. There are repercussions from jumping into these alternative sources too soon and we are definitely experiencing them. The tradeoff that I mentioned is what I want to focus on. Solar and wind and biofuels are great in theory, but they cost more than they are worth. These industries are being kept alive by your tax dollars. One could easily argue that we need to spend the $ to develop them and it's hard to argue against that, but when will we pull the plug on these if they just are not going to work? There is no magic solution and everything has a negative side. let the market drive the industry, not legislators that are killing us with spending money that we don't have to spend. I'm tired of being lied to, and my money taken.  >:(

Home heating oil is suffering the same effects.

Well said! [thumbsup] [clap]

If filtration and water separation are the only issues with biodiesel, then that's fixable.

The school bus problem you mentioned (as well as other similar stories) is just bad planning.  Filters are cheap and easy to implement.

I like so called bio diesel not because I'm a tree hugger but because it broadens the base of our fuel sources.  Also, one of Rudolf Diesel's selling point was that it can be made from any source of oil.  He used peanut oil.

I agree.

However, with the exception that Rudolf Diesel wasn't talking about modern diesel engines. That, and AFAIK he wasn't thinking that diesel fuel would/should be made from petroleum.

With little modification, modern diesels run bio blends just fine.  Most of the pump diesel in Europe is synthetic from bio sources and most manufacturers certify their diesels for bio blends.  VW certifies my tdi for B5 but in 3rd party testing 20% and 50% were used with no problems.  That's on unmodified engines.  With extras like 2 or 3 stage filtration and tank warmers it would be little issue ging to 100%

I am sure most can remember moving from leaded gasoline to unleaded.  Todays engines don't have any problem running unleaded.

Old ones need help.  That's the price of progress.

I noticed in California, every gas vehicle smells like a brewery! For the gentleman using Castor oil 927, it has its own drawbacks if not used up right away, in mixed state. Does smell good though!!

Wow, you sir are a very valuable person. There is an entire industry that needs you because there are a ton of Chemists, engineers, scientists, technicians, etc. that have been working tirelessly for years to solve the multiple issues that biofuels present with little to no success. You have it figured out so what is your secret?  [roll]

You can jump on the Euphorian bandwagon if you choose...just be aware that your ride does not have a great ending. If you wish to ignore the overwhelming evidence that biofuels are causing more problems then they could possibly fix, are less efficient, and more expensive to produce...that is your choice. Good luck with your fantasy. Even the great scam king Al Gore just stated (this week I believe), that Ethanol was a mistake. He admitted that it is extrmely inefficient, causes too many problems, is too expensive, etc. If that scumbag is admitting it then that ship is sinking fast.

I deal with this garbage on a technical level that most people never get to see. If you have the magic solution that can help me in my professional career, please share because as I said, there are a hell of a lot of brilliant people that work hard to solve these issues.
 [beer]

Al Gore's mea culpa was for supporting "1st generation" corn ethanol because it negatively impacted the food supply.

However, I don't care about that.  I only said that diesel originated as a "bio" fuel and there's no reason engines and fuel tanks can't be modified to use it 100% problem free.

And as far as ethanol as a fuel, it has been used in Brasil for about 30 years and they don't have any problems.  The cars are designed for it.

The problem is when fuel formula mandates come down and don't provide for older vehicles.

I agree 300% about ethanol in fuel being bad.  I also agree with ducatiz about biodiesel.  Some people are confusing biodiesel with running filtered used cooking oil.  Biodiesel is a refined automotive fuel.  Not only has it been used in Europe with no ill effects, some fleets have been using it here with less problems than conventional diesel.  I know of one truck fleet that has been using it for probably over 10 years with fewer fuel related problems than conventional diesel.  I have heard of seal compatibility and pump wear due problems on older diesels, that's about it.   

Personal ad hominem attacks really bolster credibility, and they're fun to read.  [coffee]

http://pure-gas.org/ (http://pure-gas.org/)

lol, i'm an attorney, i can take it..

Remember...?
This is the internet. Other then you stating " I'm in research and development in a big filter company." we don't have any idea what field you are an expert in!

Perhaps referencing some specific data as to what these "massive issues" are would help us to enlighten you.

(http://www.strokeboard.net/style_emoticons/default/Scratch-Head.gif)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GF3N%2BOr0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I don't post much, and don't normally enter into internet debates. Arguing over the internet is pointless and I really don't have anything to prove, nor do i really care what anyone thinks. The last thing that I will do is waste energy trying to prove to a bunch of random people what I know, or what I do for a living. I've wasted enough energy on this already. Before this deteriorates into something completely rediculous, I will apologize for my statements if anyone was offended, and will now leave this alone. Believe what you like, I'm done.  ;)

Happy Turkey Day.
 [beer]

 [thumbsdown]

Whats confusing? My statement or that I responded to a post that wasn't specifically directed at me.

he said he worked on filters...    [thumbsup]

Right. But that hardly provides enough info to know that he's an expert. I work on filters all the time.... I am not an expert. 

I used to work on cars. You shouldn't own a VW. I've seen lots of problems with them. They're terrible.
Do you feel compelled to sell your VW IZ? Should I be offended if you don't?



Getting back on topic.

Any one know what can be done to mitigate the damage being done in 2 stroke engines that are essentially forced to run E10? Here in NJ it's seemingly impossible to get ethanol free gas.

There's a marine formula Stabil product that combats moisure absorbtion, I believe.
I haven't had any end-user issues with E10 beyond lower gas mileage, but hopefully adding that  Stabil
wil prevent my tank from swelling (05 620). Well, no issues beyond the extra cost of an additive to most of the fuel I run through the Duc, paranoid or not.

Your only option is to use a product like Stabil or Star tron and empty the gas tank when you can.

I use Stabil Marine as it allegedly has more properties to reduce phase separation.  Seems to work well and mixes well with 2-stroke gas.

"Al Gore (biggest fraud of all time), himself just spoke out against ethanol and stated that it was a mistake. The world has been lied to long enough about the danger of man made global climate change. We need to push back. Follow the $$ trails, it leads back to to the same suspects everytime. This is not going to go away unless we fight back. Biofuels are just one part of the big lie that's been forced on us to make someone truckloads of $$. Enough is enough. "

I can't sit back and listen to this.  I am an engineer and you don't know what you are talking about.  The money leads back to the petroleum industry.  A motor can run on ethanol with no problems.  Older designs have to change.  Lets talk about motorcycles.
 
 

Moreover, Algore wasn't apologising for ethanol, he was apologising for pushing "first generation corn-based ethanol" because it drove food prices up.  That's all.

Plenty of other sources of ethanol don't affect food sources (or are made from secondary foods with a surplus, such as Cane as in Brasil)

And it's a fine fuel for engines and systems designed for it.  It doesn't have as much energy as pure gasoline or diesel, but if you're driving a small car, that shouldn't matter, especially if the cost per unit is much lower and the production of it isn't more pollutive than other forms of energy.

I know they've had alcohol carbs for ages for bikes, anyone run a bike on pure alcohol?

I have no problem with alcohol or any bio fuel as long as it does not compete with food supply.  Lost BTU content of alcohol can be more than compensated for with increased compression and timing advance.  Pure ethanol is 113 RON.  I do have a big problem with E10 and E15, it just doesn't work.  Yeah, you do have the inefficiency of distillation, but that is another discussion.

I just want my Ducati tank to stop swelling for the time being.  I go with marine StaBil, but I have not been using it long enough to make an assessment of whether or not it is working.

<mod hat>
First a reminder to all that there's a "no politics" rule around here.
</mod hat>

2nd, I'm just old enough to remember the debates around lead in gasoline. It sucked for a while, but eventually everyone adapted to gasoline formulated without it.

Merits / Problems with Ethanol aside, this all seems eerily familiar.

I suspect they will eventually figure this out, and most likely from an engine engineering standpoint as the Ethanol lobby is stronger than the "small engine" lobby  :-\

I was chatting with the techs at the local Duc shop today and we were talking about brine on the roads (I'm one of those cold weather riding types) and how they have seen bikes completely eaten up by the stuff. Obviously that led to a discussion of ethanol and the new tanks, etc. They're recommending a fuel additive (like sta-bil) at the shop to help w/ these sorts of issues. It makes me wonder if everyone ends up adding stabilizer to E10 if the service stations will just start selling gas already "sta-bilized."

See my previous comment about engine designers probably being on the hook rather than gasoline refiners.

Still, it'd be nice if they could stop make the beast with two backsing up our motors and tanks  :-\

I use Sta-Bil in all my bike gas, as well as my gas powered farm equipment. After every long ride I top off at the gas station near my house and add the Sta-Bil when I get home... and yes, I bounce and rock the bike to get it mixed up. I started adding it because of my "carbed" bikes to help when they sat for a while and the fuel would evaporate in the float bowls. It certainly helps keep the jets and airways free and clear but it's still not perfect. I have had my Kawi ZRX1200R "go bad" on me using Sta-Bil when it sat too long and needed open heart carb work. [bang] Now I even use it in my EFI bikes. Still, even using Sta-Bil did not prevent the dreaded plastic tank swell on my S2R1000 or Sport 1000. The swelling isn't as bad as some have reported but Sta-Bil did not prevent it completely. And I use the Sta-Bil recommended long term storage "double dose" in all my bikes and farm equipment. I'm sure it helps but it's no silver bullet.

Good to know! I'm fortunate to have a metal tank and fuel injection, but I still am interested in this issue. The tech said Seafoam would do just about the same as stabil. I've used that product a lot in trying to get an old carb running again without actually doing the grunt work of tearing it apart. I love seafoam, but I doubt it's a magical solution either.

Yep, I've used Seafoam too. Nothing against it at all, just went with Sta-Bil and have stuck with it. Just wish it was the Holy Grail of additives... tank swell eliminator, magic octane booster and riding talent improver!! [laugh] Turbo kit/Rossi in a bottle! [cheeky] [moto]

If you ever do discover an additive with those attributes in exactly the opposite order you have them listed, I'd like 11ty billion cases, please.

You and me both brother! [thumbsup]

Article on Al Gore and ethanol...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703572404575634753486416076.html?KEYWORDS=al+gore (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703572404575634753486416076.html?KEYWORDS=al+gore)

A lot of "i told you so" attitude from one of Rupert Murdoch's media outlets.

Dismissing the conclusions of the column because of its source is just as dangerous as when right wingers dismiss all criticism by the "left wing media." it's hard to disagree with the actual facts as laid out.

+1  I've heard this kind of whining many times before.  And the reference to the lead fuel is a good one.  We are in a time of rapid change and it makes us uncomfortable.  But our world and technology is not going to remain stable.  We could not run on lead gas forever and we cannot run on pure gas forever either.  I also remember 45 records, cassette tapes, and CDs, none of which will work in my MP3 player.  Who is to blame for this.  It must be those damn green liberals, or the farm lobby, or the greedy right wingers stuffing their pockets, or corporate corruption, somebody is getting rich off my misfortune and discomfort with change, Glen Beck knows who done it, oh I know, it's the government.  

By the way when I was a kid formula 1 ran 1.5 liter turbocharged engines that put out 1500 hp on pure alcohol.  

I believe a comparison to MTBE is better than a comparison to lead. 

<mod hat>

NO POLITICS. Final warning.

</mod hat>

(http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/weird_gay_hat.jpg)

Is that a Mod Hat or a Final Warning

I keed I keed

AKmnstr is backing off and from now on  [popcorn]

I want that hat! [thumbsup]



The rest of the package... not so much. [puke]

I repeat, (excluding any environmental discussion) ethanol is a good fuel and add E 85 is a good fuel.  E 10 is not.

but the gloves are just fab--ulous!


Any fuel with an appropriately designed engine/system is fine for me.  Do you mean E10 sold as gasoline for gasoline vehicles is bad?

I agree otherwise, I wish they sold it like they do in Australia.  You have E85, E10 and G100/E0 being sold right next to each other.  You can choose what you like.  E10 is about 10% cheaper than G100/E0.

You know what's to blame here?  MID GRADE.  The stations realized people are stupid.  So they mix premium and regular to make "MID GRADE" and charge you essentially 105% of the cost.  It's for people who think putting a higher octane gas in their tank will help, but are too cheap to use premium.  VOILA!  marketing.

My solution would be to have E10 regular, G100 premium and if they want to put an "E5" midgrade, fine.  I'd use the premium for everything, it's not that much more.

Then again, my car and truck are diesels...

You got it, ducatiz, E10 instead of G100.  If E10 was run in vehicles with closed loop vehicles designed to read the mixture properly and perhaps use the ethanol as an octane enhancement so higher compression ratio and/or ignition advance to make up for the power loss plus modify the product to reduce water separation and fuel pump problems E10 would be fine.  Until then...