Ducati Monster Forum

Has anyone bought one yet?  It's on their website now.  I talked to a freind of mine yesterday at Dyno-jet and he said the new Power Commander is out.  He was telling me that it works great........But, at lower RPM's, when you cut the throttle, it still runs  a little lean due to the closed loop.  I think he said something like under 20% throttle it's lean.

Lou 

hmm. . .I just checked their website and didn't see it, regardless I will contact my local guy and see if he can get a hold of one.  If it happens I will post a report

I only saw a 2008 S4R (which is odd...) module which does not tune below 5250 RPM and below 19% throttle.
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_iii_usb/powercommander_all_downloads.aspx?mk=5&mdl=193&yr=2008

Lou,

Did you see it on their website I can't find it, I was just hoping to find it for a part number

Its the same type thats currently out there for the Hypermotard. Only good for the upper RPMs which we dont see much of. The majority of our riding comes from lower RPMs, so thats the area to focus on.

CDawg, there is a 2007 version listed as well:

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_iii_usb/powercommander_all_downloads.aspx?mk=5&mdl=193&yr=2007

Basically the same page, only the "8" changed to "7" above the pic of the bike.

Thanks to the OP for the alert on this. The low-rpm/small throttle restriction isn't ideal, but there is another way of looking at it.

That is: if you can put up with the low-speed surging and stock low-end, then in theory you should be able to fit the PC and get a stonking mid-range and pretty solid top-end with just slip-ons of some sort. Or with any full system designed to run on the stock chip. (Arrow, Akra, Zard, IIRC.)

(I'm basing this on curves published on TOB where big gains were had from just the Termie Shorty and a DP ECU with PC added and tuned.)

Not sure what the transition would be like when the revs hit 5250. But presumably a tuner could smooth that, using the PC.

Sounds like cheap grunt to me.

Brad Black's curves for stock vs the full termi kit show the kit doesn't do a great deal below 5250.

Am I missing something?

I know the surging is a pain around town but it's only a bother under 90kmh/55mph.

True, but ideally you'd want to be able to get rid of the power dip ~4500 rpm.  Since I don't track much, a smooth low end is very desirable

I have the full termi install, and while the top end is amazing I spend a lot of my commute lane splitting at 15 to 45 mph with small throttle openings. It feels like I am running mostly on one cylinder, sometimes I worry I am shortening the life span of the engine

Thats not right then. the Full Termi kit comes with an ECU to smoothen out hte lower rpm range. maybe your talking about the stock gearing thats causing the bike to be choppy, like you have 1 cylinder.

I have the 14t front sprocket, the bike just doesn't sound or feel right at the small throttle openings. It is not surging by any means, and when I need the burst to squirt into a lane it is right there. On some days when almost the entire commute (20 miles) is done between the lanes, I feel I have to take the bike back out later in the evening for an Italian tune up

by who?

these guys?

(http://z.about.com/d/tvdramas/1/0/9/L/sopranossea6-6.jpg)

Part Number is 733-411. 

No the "Italian tuneup" means taking it out on some back road for some high speed carbon cleanup [evil]

This IS a race system and is mapped for the track and higher rpm. The DP ECU is pig rich. This is exactly why I added a PCIII. Though you might get lucky and be able to get the CO adjusted leaner and get away with it but it wasn't that way for me. If they ran the CO lean enough to smooth things out down low, it hurt things everywhere else. I highly recommend a PCIII and some dyno time. The extra HP and torque doesn't hurt either!  [thumbsup]


Nope not true, see above.

Thats strange, the guys ive met with a DPECU says it makes the bike run so much better all around, i guess its casue their bike was running like crap to begin with and any improvement is a good improvement lol.

Well, for the average rider it is probably not an issue as you pass right thru the trouble spots on your way up to the real fun. But there is a bit too much fuel down low and early mid, for a crisp and smooth running engine. Also, the off/on throttle response was a bit ragged if you tried to ease into it. If you just hammer it all the time, you are good to go!!  ;D

Hypur
I know we have communicated through the board in the past (TOB). 
Which PC III did you use?
Does it work by tricking the DP ECU into thinking it is at a different RPM and throttle opening, or does it somehow override the DP ECU map?

I am almost embarrassed here in San Diego, when sitting at a stoplight I can smell unburned fuel in the exhaust (the guy in the Prius next to me is franticly texting his girlfriend about my extra large carbon footprint)

Funny! A PCIII "intercepts" the signals to the injectors being sent by the DP ECU (or any ECU for that matter) and "modifies" them according to whatever map is in the PCIII and then sends that newly modified signal on to the injectors. All in a millesecond or two...  [thumbsup] [bacon]

Forgot to answer your ? on which PCIII. I would have to go look up the part number but just get the one for the M1000ie, it works trust me.

Looks like another 'refinement' for this winter  ;D

if you unplug the O2 sensor, will he PC3 allow you to tune it under the 5250rpm and 19% throttle restriction? or is the new PC3 map locked or closed off for adjustments in that range?

Well, the above scenario was for a bike running a DP ECU which means the O2 sensor has already been removed. If you remove the O2 sensor on a bike with the stock ECU, you will get a check engine light constantly. But other than that, yes, you will have full range of adjustment but only with the earlier M1000sie model of PCIII!! The newer models out now are restricted.

I just went thru my receipts and the part number for the original unit that is not locked in any range of adjustment: 717-411

I learned this the hard way when I got the DP ECU installed. I thought I had a defective ECU or something but it's just how it is designed. With a little fine tuning my dealer was able to minimize the annoying effects at low RPM's a 14t sprocket made a big difference also.

I was just looking at these PCIII's earlier and I noticed this "Note: Power Commander will NOT allow fuel adjustment below 19% throttle and below 5250rpm unless you have the DP ECU" So does this mean it's adjustable in the full range IF you have a DP ECU?

I have the full performance ECU in my S4Rs, I had the guys at the shop set it up and it runs like a champ. Not rich or lean, just plenty of awesome.

If I were going to get the bike dynoed then the PC3 is the way to go but as it stands, I don't think the bike needs it.

If you have a DP ECU, you can use the non race versions. The race versions will not allow adjustment below 19% throttle at all. this was all because some douche bag decided to sue Dynojet (California) for BULLSHIT reasons.

What a bag of douche indeed lol

I guess it's like Hyper said if you wan't full adjustment without a DP ECU just buy the PCIII for an 05 M1000 I.E. you would have to get a custom map but that's always better than the preloaded maps anyhow.

+1

That's what I though initially. You don't know what you are missing. Take everything you like about the bike/DP ECU and put it on the shelf. Throttle response, engine smoothness, mileage (if you don't choose a crazy A/F ratio)  etc are way better! And the 8hp and 10ft lbs of torque (in my case, YRMV) ain't a bad bonus!

I think your missing the whole point of the DPECU +PCIII piggy. PCIII wont work without the DPECU. Atleast its not gonna be plug and play, and on top of that it wont be that smooth.

A PCIII will work with the stock ECU, BUT, you would have to disconnect  the O2 sensor AND live with a constant check engine light on. If the bike is dyno'd after the PCIII install, it should be smooth as silk though there is the possibilty of the stock ECU going into "limp mode" if it can't see the O2 sensor signal for a repeated number of key cycles. Not sure how advanced these ECU's really are. Remember, the PCIII is "downstream" in the equation and modifies the signals from the bike's ECU before sending to the injectors.

But I agree with your overall sentiment, this is not really the way to go. At least I wouldn't wanna be running around with my check engine light on all the time and not knowing when there really is a problem.

lol, this is getting confusing. This is what ive read. (and why there are no PCIIIs for S2R1000 and why M1000ies PCMs do not work)

PCIII is downstream but it goes like this


ECUMAP -> PCIII->Cylinders -> O2 Sensor says wtf mate, goes back to ECU and says no, something is modifying fuel map. Ignore signals.

when you unplug the O2 sensor it goes like

ECUMAP -> PCIII -ao39482904jsd scrambled. -> stock map.

Thats the whole issue with why DP is the only solution for O2'd bikes and only RB units can work with them.

Hmmm, dunno about that. There are a lot of guys running around with the O2 sensor disconnected and they say the bike runs great that way, except for the check engine light being on. The PCIII gets the last say in things before the signal is sent to the injectors. This should make whatever is happening upstream, irrelevant. It will take whatever signal the ECU spits out and change it according to what map it has in it for any given rpm/throttle position.

With the O2 sensor connected the two will definitely be fighting each other but the only result should be the killing of the O2 and cat due to the bike running richer. There may be an issue at idle as well cuz the stepper motor might have hard time holding the idle speed even, if the A/F is oscillating wildly...

All the more reason to put a full system on like I did!  [thumbsup]

The way I read the Power Commander info, the new unit for the 07-08 S4R(s) works on the stock ECU at greater than 5250rpm and/or 19pc throttle, and works on the DP ecu all the way thru.

I'm speculating that the stock ECU is closed-loop only below the above limits, and open-loop (but lean nevertheless) above.

If it is an "or" rather than "and", that would help explain why the surging on the stock ECU disappears once highway speeds are reached - 55mph in top gear is possibly about 20pc throttle, albeit well under 5250rpm.

Can't imagine why Dynojet would offer a unit for the S4Rs that couldn't tune the DP ecu over the full range - tho I'm not up on the legistlative situation in the States.

More obviously, if even the DP ecu was off-limits in this range, hard to see why they would say the PC won't work there "unless you have the DP ecu". Because it wouldn't matter what ECU you had.

Thanks for the comments about the DP unit running rich from the factory. Confirms my suspicions about the reported fuel consumption hit.

anyone been able to get rid of the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT by putting in some sort of resistor? if so what kind and what is the resistance required?

also, if you buy the older M1000sie PC3, can you load any map? even the ones for the newer S4RS, or are they PC3 model specific maps?

New info on PCIII and DP ECU:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=655.75

I agree with yoru first statement about running with a disconnecte O2 sensor. The check engine light only comes on for 07+ bikes (ive ran mine disconnecte with no issues, i have an 06) Many people have tried a PCIII with the o2 disconnected and have had no success. Only a handful has been able to get it to work. I would be down for a PCIII right now, but theres no gaurentee it would work. Even with it installed, people still arent too satisfied.

You can load any map that is for a PCIII usb of that variety. You won't get great results but it would work. All the map is is a table of values for RPM and Throttle position over the entire rev range and throttle opening range. You really wanna go the dyno route.  [thumbsup]

Is that with canned maps or dyno or both?

A little more info on new PC III  733-411 from Dynojet.  It is not necessary to buy the 717-411 because of the "locked" areas in the  new map.  The new map has no locked areas.  Also, the harness is shorter with the 717-411 and does not fit as well.  Dynojet is currently working on a Wideband 2 unit which has a narrow band O2 sensor manipulation which MAY spoof the stock sensor to keep the stock ECU happy for full map tuning, but at this time it is not yet confirmed.

In other words Dynojet is definitely working on it and someday will have it figured out :)

Lou

both. When dynoing the bike for a custom map, the ECU would erase all values for under a certain RPM. So some guy thought of rigging it to the throttle and it worked for some and not for others.

are you 100% certain on this, that there are no "locked" areas on the newer 733-411? where are you getting this info from? i really want this to be true so i can tune my S4RS already.

From Dynojet's lips to my hand to this forum:

There is no locked versus unlocked version...it is just a different map that is loaded.  The standard map just have (my speculation) zero as values for the "locked" portion since the O2 and stock ECU will just cancel out PCIII's value anyway.  I don't know which maps available from their download site have value across the range or which ones have zeros.

...thinking about it, it doesn't matter because if you have value below 5250 RPM and 19% throttle, the stock ECU will just compensate and reduce fueling to get it back to OEM levels...so its not the PCIII is "locked" it just that the stock ECU compensates the PCIII values to get it back to stock level.

If I had a nickle for every time I read a thread on the Ducati ECU, I'd have $429.85. Now I am even more confused. CDawg I read a few posts back the the PC III gets between the ECU and the injectors. If this is the case, it would have the last say in the injector pulse width, wouldn't matter what the ECU was deciding the fuel / air ratio should be.

What you are describing is the PC III tricking the Ducati ECU (stock or DP) into thinking the TPS, RPM, and whatever else are in a different place so the Ducati ECU looks up a value in its map (look up table) that has a wider pulse width for the injector.

Since you can talk to the PC III guys, would you ask them
1. Does it trick the ECU into going to a different place in its own map (this is how a lot of the add-on devices work for the honda cars)
2. Does it read rpm, tps itself and use its own map
3. Does it read the ECU calculated pulse width to the injector (let the ecu do all the work) then just lengthen or shorten it based on it own modifier map

I am not completely unhappy with the DP full termi kit, but i do think it could run a little better
Thanks for any info you can dig up

Ya , what he (CDawg) said!

Lou

That is not the case.  My understanding is the PCIII modifies the ECU signal based on it's own table, hence the uploading of a map to PCIII.  The PCIII is a static map by adding or subtracting a fixed value to the stock ECU signal.  Using a made up example, the stock ecu sends a "5" to the injectors based on RPM and TPS.  The PCIII would the look up the RPM and TPS in its table for a modifier value, which for arguement sake say is a +2.  The next signal to the injector is a "7".  Now the O2 sensor reads teh exhaust gasses and realizes the bike is running too rich (based on OEM spec) and send a signal back to the stock ECU.  The stock ECU then reduces it's signal to a "3".  This "3" is then intercepted by the PCIII which adds a "+2" before passing the signal along to the injector.  The new value to the injector is a 5 (3+2) which is the OEM default.  This is the "beauty" of a closed loop system.


I don't have an insider track...they can be reach on +1-702-399-1423

CDawg, Thanks
What you described is basically item 3 in my list. This is exactly how I would do it. (I have been developing automated control systems for the Utility industry for the last 15 years so I am intimately familiar with sensors, feedback, firmware etc.). Let the Ducati stock or DP ECU do all the work, then just tweak the result.

Thanks for the number I will give the folks there a call I am still curious to know if they also use TPS or RPM to modify the tweak value

CDawg, that is a beautifully expressed explanation and also happens to be the way I see it. From what I can glean, the PC modifies the info coming out of the ECU and sends the modified signal to the injector. But the modification is a fixed tweak on the stock signal. If stock signal is also fixed - as in earlier systems that don't read exhaust gas - then the combination of stock and PC is fixed to the modified value.

But on the newer bikes, the stock signal is affected by the exhaust gas reading. The PC may richen the stock signal by a fixed amount, but the feedback loop then leans out the stock signal on the next cycle to compensate - rendering the PC irrelevant.

My guess is that the stock signal ignores the O2 sensor above the 5250/19pc throttle part of the map. And hence becomes susceptible to PC manipulation.

Thought about it tonight as I was riding home from work (on stock ECU, which it seems makes me a rare case). It really does seem as though the surging disappears above a certain small throttle setting, even if revs are below 5250.

so would unplugging the O2 sensor disable the stock ECU to make changes for anything under 5250rpm and 19% throttle allowing the PC3 to do whatever it wants across the whole rev range? or is it a little more complicated than that?

1) the check engine light would remain on at all times
2) some shops have been able to make this work, others have not.  The stock ECU is not designed to operate w/o an O2 sensor, so there is no guarantee or consistency that it will work. See this thread for more detailed explaination: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=655.0

Engine light is only on for 07+ bikes, (does the 06 S4R have an O2 sesnor? im not sure) The light cannot be shut of, most people just throw a piece of tape over it, or go inside the gauge and kill te light completely.

2) The stock ecu works fine without the O2 sensor, otherwise it wouldnt work if you unplugged it. I know from experience that the O2 sensor when removed from the S2R1k will have absolutely no problem. The only thing you need to do is reset the ECU by removing the battery and leaving the bike in the ON position for a 30 seconds or so. If u unplug the o2 without resetting the ECU, the bike runs pretty rough and will shut of randomly.

however i still dont know why not all ECUs behave the same way with PCIIIs, as Cdawg said, PCIII works fine with some, and not so good with others.