Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => General Monster Forum => Topic started by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 11:56:37 AM



Title: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 11:56:37 AM
Update #4  11-Oct-2010

If you have been told by a dealer any of the following, PLEASE PM ME with your contact info, i.e. name, email, phone #, and the dealer you dealt with.  I will be taking this directly to a meeting with my contacts at Ducati.

  • You have to have a leaking tank before we will replace it.
  • You have to leave a deposit to get your replacement tank
  • You have to leave your bike with us until the new tank comes in
  • Ducati isn't replacing tanks merely for expansion
  • Your bike is out of warranty, no replacement

etc

Also, if you have sold your bike due to the tank issue, please contact me as above.

Thanks

Izaak

Update #3a    28-Aug-2010:  Research links FYI
Some of you have asked for more information on the Ethanol/Water/Nylon interaction.  Some of the info I have is proprietary and I can't post it, but all of the following have the same or similar info and are public.  

Problems with E10/Ethanol absorbing water and then separating are well known, thanks to the boat industry, and manufacturers of polyamides (all) have known for years that (uncoated/untreated) Nylons absorb water in varying degrees depending on the type.  PA6, the Nylon used in your tank, is probably one of the more aggressive absorbers.  (Note: polyamides are a family of materials).

The last PA6 note mentions that PA6 can absorb moisture to 8% of its weight, and that is from a manufacturer of PA6 parts.  I wonder if ~anyone~ at Acerbis/Ducati did any research on PA6 before deciding to use it for a gas tank.


Footnotes:
On Nylon 6/PA6
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract)
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm (http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/)
http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6 (http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6)

On Ethanol adsorption of water
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/)
http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml (http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml)


UPDATE #3 10-Aug-2010 What is known so far:

1.  Ducati is replacing every tank that comes in with any significant deformation.  The main things to look for are a) spreading on the frame mounts (one rubber bumper on each bottom side) b) ripples in the surface or c) pressing against the keyswitch

2.  The correct procedure is to go to a dealer and have the tank inspected.  Some folks have had problems with some dealers not wanting to deal with the tank or claiming Ducati is not replacing the tanks.  So far, this has borne out to be just dealers with incorrect info.

3.  The tanks are made from Nylon 6/6, aka PA6 or Polyamide 6.  They are made by Acerbis.

4.  Nylon 6/6 absorbs water.  Ethanol wicks moisture from the air and gravity causes the water to weigh down the ethanol so that it separates from the gasoline solution.  This means you end up with a pool of water at the bottom of your tank which is readily absorbed by the nylon surface.

5.  I do not know if Acerbis/Ducati coats the interior of the tanks.  I do not believe they do.

6.  Other bikes have had the same type of problem:  Multistradas and Sport Classics.  I have not talked to anyone with an SBK yet, but I have heard rumors those as well.  

7.  Some Multistrada owners got new tanks and had them coated with Caswell's liner.  I have gotten into contact with a few of these folks and so far, they are happy with the result.  Some have had the coating for a year now.

8.  Ducati NA is actively looking into solutions.

9.  I have spoken with the Office of Defects Investigation at NHTSA and have presented to them the data on the problem.  They may open an investigation given the number of complaints thus far.  More reports can only help push this effort.

10.  Ducati NA seems to be engaged, but not to the extent we'd all like them to be.  That doesn't mean a solution isn't coming, but it also doesn't mean a solution is coming at all.  The best thing for me to do is continue working with them until I am convinced there is no more effort on their part.  I do not currently have a timeline, there is no statute of limitations for a defect suit of this type.



UPDATE #2 17-Jun-2010 Please check out HeMan's post on how to inspect your tank for signs of expansion: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.0)

UPDATE  ***I am collecting stats on which bikes are having the tank problem and what (if any) mods may be involved.  You have to be on my list (see signup below) to receive the survey link.  That's the only way I can prevent crap responses from getting in.

Please sign up to the list to get the survey link if you haven't yet.  If you are on the list, check your email.

**************



Please see this previous post:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0)

I am putting together a list of folks who are having problems with their plastic tank expanding.  

If enough people sign up, I'll draft a letter to Ducati NA explaining the problem and ask for them to remedy.  My feeling is that enough people contact them (and are verifiable owners) they will step up.  Otherwise, I don't know -- I am an attorney, I guess.

If you are having problems with your gas tank expanding, go here and please sign up:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)

Or you can join via email subscription by mailing:  
ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



Send this link to other folks you know who might be having this problem and reference the prior thread:  http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0)

I made the list private and NON posting, so you'll only get emails from ME directly.  When you sign up, you'll get an autoreply asking you to email the moderator with your contact information, which is necessary for contacting DNA (or anything else).

For those of you who do not know, I am an attorney and whatever you feel about lawyers, I'm a good guy and have ridden for about 25 years now, Ducatis about 24 of that.  I'm not interested in suing anyone, it's not my style, I am more of a "let's sit and have a beer and work this out" kind of attorney.

There is no charge for this at all to you.  If there is some kind of settlement, it will only be with the primary requirement that our tanks are replaced with a non-expanding variety (or at least replaced with a guarantee that it will be replaced again if it expands).  You'll have to be on the list to be part of any settlement.

Your information will be kept confidential.

Good luck to us all.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 09, 2009, 12:13:02 PM
Just signed up. Thanks Izzy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: JBubble on June 09, 2009, 12:17:00 PM
Thank you for setting this up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on June 09, 2009, 12:21:06 PM
'tizz, I'll sticky this when I'm at a computer and not my phone.   Let's talk a bit too about details...(vin numbers would be good...as would folks whose tanks were already replaced....DMF logo and 'official' info included or no etc etc.

this is realy one of the big benefits of a forum and community...let's use that to benefit the members.

Thanks, man.

Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 12:23:22 PM
'tizz, I'll sticky this when I'm at a computer and not my phone.   Let's talk a bit too about details...(vin numbers would be good...as would folks whose tanks were already replaced....DMF logo and 'official' info included or no etc etc.

this is realy one of the big benefits of a forum and community...let's use that to benefit the members.

Thanks, man.

Chris

i put all that info in the list signup (including VIN and Ducati owner's group info if they have it).  give me a call later.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on June 09, 2009, 12:31:39 PM
Way to step up!  Thanks.

Since I'm in the area, I'll have to buy you a beer one of these days.......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on June 09, 2009, 12:34:17 PM
I stickied it.

good luck.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: RetroSBK on June 09, 2009, 05:56:05 PM
Easy fix for the issue...

Under your gascap is a little green fitting, it seals to the bottom of the gas cap.  Simply grab a pair of pliars, and rip that sucker off there... and throw it away...

No more venting issue, and the ONLY downside is that IF the bike falls over, the cap will allow some fuel to spill onto the EPA protected ground.

Its the EPA's fault the tanks are expanding.. seriously..

BTW, by removing the vent seal, you allow the tank to vent quicker, and that unloads the fuel pump and actually gives a slight boost in HP, by increasing fuel pressure.

Will


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on June 09, 2009, 05:57:08 PM
Tizzz,

do we need to sign up for a yahoo account, or is there a way around that? i am willing to do so if needed, but would rather not.

thanks for taking the lead on this!

herm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 08:39:40 PM
Tizzz,

do we need to sign up for a yahoo account, or is there a way around that? i am willing to do so if needed, but would rather not.

thanks for taking the lead on this!

herm

I'll add this to the top post:

Subscribe:    ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:    ducatiplastictanks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Benjamin5150 on June 11, 2009, 06:19:45 AM
Thanks for taking this on.  I have signed up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: tlloyd66 on June 11, 2009, 07:45:47 AM
I have signed up, thank you for not only doing this, but for also making it available to us without Yahoo accounts!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: JTMOTO on June 11, 2009, 12:10:03 PM
joined


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 11, 2009, 02:38:13 PM
I'm there- Thank You Very Much.
You da man.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lagerman72 on June 12, 2009, 01:27:12 PM
Joined into this.  Thanks for setting it up!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: m1moto on June 14, 2009, 07:31:44 AM
Thanks - just signed up


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Barry Cuda on June 17, 2009, 07:38:13 AM
Wow this thread and the other one opened my eyes to my tank issues.  Always thought something was strange as the steering damper was touching a spot of the tank and making a little dent.  Thought it was just a badly designed mounting point but I had the guys at the shop bring down the one edge of the mounting point a little and it was fine now it's happening again.  Then I read about the dimples on the side and went outside and checked my bike and there they were.  *Pics Attached*   

On another note...  How can Ducati deny a warranty claim for cosmetic reasons.  If your tank starts to look like shit a couple of years down the road through no fault of your own isn't that a defect in craftsmanship?  Granted that warranty is only 2 years but who would continue buying bikes from them if they knew the tanks (one of the main focal points on the bike) were going to be screwed in a couple of years (probably after your standard warranty is up) and Ducati wouldn't fix the problem?

Sorry about the pic quality.  From my iPhone.  My G/F has our good camera in her purse.  You know how chix are with cameras.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/1ylj11.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/11wc0hs.jpg)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 17, 2009, 05:27:38 PM
Mine is getting replaced under the emissions warranty here in Las Vegas.  I think more will get replaced if the issue is pushed hard enough.  I'm one of the lucky ones so far.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2009, 06:10:39 PM
Mine is getting replaced under the emissions warranty here in Las Vegas.  I think more will get replaced if the issue is pushed hard enough.  I'm one of the lucky ones so far.

get on the list anyhow..

i'll be making a letter to NHTSA as well, and they would want to know ALL instances of tank deformation/ defects.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 18, 2009, 09:11:00 AM
Maybe not so lucky Sikduc- the replacements seem to do the same thing in time(hopefully w/in the 5 yr. emissions warrenty for you).

Hey Phineas: think we should all do the online complaint form on the NHTSA web site?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2009, 09:14:16 AM
Maybe not so lucky Sikduc- to replacements seem to do the same thing in time(hopefully w/in the 5 yr. emissions warrenty for you).

Hey Phineas: think we should all do the online complaint form on the NHTSA web site?

I'm preparing a form letter for everyone to use for that.  IF you want to go ahead and do it on your own, that's fine, but I want to make an iron-clad list of issues for them to look at.

Also, if you've not had your bike looked at, the ODI/NHTSA form isn't any good since they want to see if you've been rejected first.

So if you've not had your bike looked at by Ducati, then don't bother with the NHTSA yet.  Even if Ducati replaces the tank for you, then fill out the form and report that ti was replaced with the same tank, etc.

Right now just trying to get a good fat list of people to give Ducati notice that a lot of people are having the problem, that we're all aware we're not the only one, and please do something about it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 18, 2009, 10:24:35 AM
Cool- glad a smart guy is looking into this- I just make chemicals.
BTW- I got my dealers invoice from 2 months ago stating a rejection through DNA. I'll be glad to send it, along w/ pics of a non-operable tank latch, bars hitting, pimples...
Thanks- J.P.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2009, 10:28:07 AM
Cool- glad a smart guy is looking into this- I just make chemicals.
BTW- I got my dealers invoice from 2 months ago stating a rejection through DNA. I'll be glad to send it, along w/ pics of a non-operable tank latch, bars hitting, pimples...
Thanks- J.P.

just put it all in a safe place and make scans if you can. thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 18, 2009, 11:03:44 AM
Maybe not so lucky Sikduc- the replacements seem to do the same thing in time(hopefully w/in the 5 yr. emissions warrenty for you).

I hear ya.  But a new tank is better than no tank.  Let's see what happens.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 18, 2009, 01:34:40 PM
I hear ya.  But a new tank is better than no tank.  Let's see what happens.

This is true. Just be sure to sign up for one that is alittle more permanent. Those of us stuck w/ sucky dealers would appreciate it!
Thanks. J.P.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ArcDeDucati on June 18, 2009, 02:53:03 PM
Signed up.  Just read this whole thread at work, got home and yup.  My titanium tank is warped by the latch. Bought the bike in March as a nos and have 5000 miles on it this year.  I told them to take the carbon can off before I picked it up too. I noticed that it was a little difficult last time I took it off but didn't thing anything of it as I just thought it was the fit of the tank and I am coming from a metal tanked monster previously that fit fine. 

I'm going to try out Gold Coast Motorsports here in Long Island and see if they can get me a new tank.  There service department is top notch and I buy so much crap from them that I'm sure they will help me out and prob know about the issue already.  Will let yall know what does down.

And thanks for the thread!  Let us unite and take on DNA as a forced to be reckoned with!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 18, 2009, 06:33:35 PM
I am signing guys!  I agree with this whole process [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 19, 2009, 09:23:11 AM
Hey- has anyone tried to tell folks on TOB about the sign-up list?


NEVER MIND- DONE.

I know it has been mentioned on the Ducati.ms monster site.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 29, 2009, 05:02:42 PM
i just spent hte last 30 mins trying to lift my tank. damn thing is so freaking annoying. you have to use a screw driver to wedge the clip and then i had to take of the cover for the immobilizer sensor.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 29, 2009, 07:06:47 PM
I pointed out the problem to the guys at Indianapolis Ducati last Saturday. Service manager took pics and measurments. Got a call today my tank will be replaced. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 30, 2009, 10:36:33 AM
I pointed out the problem to the guys at Indianapolis Ducati last Saturday. Service manager took pics and measurments. Got a call today my tank will be replaced. 

Sweet ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on July 08, 2009, 04:52:03 PM
Just signed up as well.

Thanks for setting this up


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 09, 2009, 08:19:02 AM
Just make sure when you've signed up to the Yahoo group that you reply to the automated email with your info.  I have an Excel list with everyone's contact info and bike info that I'll be sending to DNA.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on July 13, 2009, 07:06:43 AM
I'm on the list, thanks.  Sent my info in.

My S4Rs is now up at MikMar Motor Service (where I bought it) for some unrelated work, but I mentioned the problem to Mike Duzick (MikMar owner and former franchised Ducati dealer; now independent) and he told me to take it to a currently franchised dealer to record an emissions-related warranty claim.

I was up at DucPond picking up my 1000SS track bike on Saturday and mentioned the Monster fuel tank issue to Donnie Unger, and he said to bring the bike in, that Ducati is getting "more responsive" wrt the issue.

Of course, as others have pointed out, if you get a replacment tank under warranty and it was made the exact same way of the exact same materials, won't the problem simply crop up again in a year or two?

My opinion is that Ducati ought to commission a production run of steel tanks to replace the problematical plastic items.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 13, 2009, 07:37:36 AM
My opinion is that Ducati ought to commission a production run of steel tanks to replace the problematical plastic items.

I think that would be nice, but unreasonable considering it would be exorbitantly expensive.

More likely, use the same rotomold with correct materials.  There is no proof, but I bet the problem is ethanol in US gasoline and it would be much easier to figure out how to re-make the tanks with alcohol-resistant nylon/plastic/whathaveu..

that being said, it's only my opinion that is the problem with the tanks.  i have talked with multiple folks in UK and Europe and no one has heard or seen the problem there.  Ethanol is not currently used in gasoline there, but will be rolled out in the next few years.  I imagine they will have a similar problem then.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 13, 2009, 11:37:42 AM
This is awesome. Got the email and going to head out to the dealer on friday to ask them about it...and buy a clutch. hopefully throwing some money their way might persuade them to take a look at it. if not then, ill theres no more dealers local enough to get them to check it out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on July 14, 2009, 03:18:37 PM
Went to the dealer today and reported the problem with my S4RS. It took all of two minutes and the guy was out taking pictures of the tank. They made note of the ripples as well as what looks like a blister (very small) :o. The dealer ask that I call Ducati and report the problem directly to them and to let them know what dealer looked at the bike.  I'll call them tomorrow but I'm sure it wil be wasted phone call. If this gets covered I'll be shocked.

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 15, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
What? the dealer made you call?
slack.
Besides- we don't want the same batch of tanks, that'll just start deforming when the 5 yr. emissions warrenty is up.
I'm following Mr. Ducatiz-e's advice in this matter.
Already documented and denied through the dealer, that's enough silly kid games for me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on July 15, 2009, 01:28:15 PM
I think that would be nice, but unreasonable considering it would be exorbitantly expensive.

Not sure why it would be exorbitantly expensive.  Expensive, sure, but why would it be much more expensive than making additional plastic tanks?  Steel tank technology is not new, certainly not new to Ducati (my 1966 250 Mach 1 and my 1973 750GT both had nicely made steel tanks that worked well for many years) and they've even made steel Monster tanks before.  Just need to stamp out a different tank bottom for each airbox variation (what are there, three or four?) and paint them.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 15, 2009, 04:44:01 PM
Not sure why it would be exorbitantly expensive.  Expensive, sure, but why would it be much more expensive than making additional plastic tanks?  Steel tank technology is not new, certainly not new to Ducati (my 1966 250 Mach 1 and my 1973 750GT both had nicely made steel tanks that worked well for many years) and they've even made steel Monster tanks before.  Just need to stamp out a different tank bottom for each airbox variation (what are there, three or four?) and paint them.

They would have to have the molds made (one cost) and then get them EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certified.  It would require a redesign of the pump and interior.   You can't just slap some sheet metal on and go.  The S2R tank is very different from the M900, etc.

Using the current plastic rotomolds, they have no setup or certification costs, just material and labor to remake tanks with better material. 

Far far far cheaper to remake plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Itsasickness on July 15, 2009, 05:23:58 PM
Just signed up as well. Thanks for doing this


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 15, 2009, 07:25:26 PM
UPDATE I spoke with a dealer today. They were MUCH more helpful then I thought. Especially since i got a no from a different dealer that was suppose to be much friendlier.

Anyway, They said, normally spekaing it would be plausible if the bike was under warranty, but since im about 7 months out, they are not sure if it would count as emissions warranty because the tank is still usable.

I have to email the main tech guy tomorrow and send him pics plus my vin number etc etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 16, 2009, 09:58:39 AM
Complaint submitted to NHTSA.
Took only 5 min.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on July 17, 2009, 01:21:19 PM
This afternoon I spoke with the dealer and got the news.......  A new tank is has been authorized by ducati for my 07 S4RS [thumbsup]. They covered the tank under the 5 year emissions warranty since the standard warranty expired last August.  After the new tank has been installed and I have copies of all the paper work I plan to file with the NTSB.. My guess is this time next year, or sooner the new tank will be just like this one.

I'm waiting for something to go wrong because getting a new tank from Ducati has been too easy. maybe I sould've waited until I had the tank in my hands before posting this..  [laugh]


Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 17, 2009, 02:25:36 PM
lol, nice! did u get to pick a new color? :p, i bought my 06 in 07 and it was swollen already. you can only hope u can get by a few months without it swelliing!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lilmonster on July 18, 2009, 08:55:39 PM
What if you were to use a product called line a tank to seal the new tank to prevent gas from being in contact with the plastic. It is a one part resin used to seal a leaking or rusty tank. Just clean inside, put enough in to coat the entire inside, work it around, let cure a day or two. I have used it to seal an old tank with a hole rusted through, seems to work well and be durable. Leaves a smooth coating but is hard when cured. I used it on a metal tank don't know how it would do on a plastic tank. Just a thought, $30 for a qt.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jwoconnor on July 18, 2009, 09:18:27 PM
They would have to have the molds made (one cost) and then get them EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certified.  It would require a redesign of the pump and interior.   You can't just slap some sheet metal on and go.  The S2R tank is very different from the M900, etc.

Using the current plastic rotomolds, they have no setup or certification costs, just material and labor to remake tanks with better material. 

Far far far cheaper to remake plastic tanks.

I agree. The tooling cost would be killer. Scrap at the weld/paint shop end would also be high. No one likes to weld motorcycle tanks any more.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 19, 2009, 10:06:42 AM
What if you were to use a product called line a tank to seal the new tank to prevent gas from being in contact with the plastic. It is a one part resin used to seal a leaking or rusty tank. Just clean inside, put enough in to coat the entire inside, work it around, let cure a day or two. I have used it to seal an old tank with a hole rusted through, seems to work well and be durable. Leaves a smooth coating but is hard when cured. I used it on a metal tank don't know how it would do on a plastic tank. Just a thought, $30 for a qt.

only if it works for plastic tanks. the chemical itself could cause harm to the plastic and cause further warping.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 19, 2009, 12:56:56 PM
This afternoon I spoke with the dealer and got the news.......  A new tank is has been authorized by ducati for my 07 S4RS [thumbsup]. They covered the tank under the 5 year emissions warranty since the standard warranty expired last August.  After the new tank has been installed and I have copies of all the paper work I plan to file with the NTSB.. My guess is this time next year, or sooner the new tank will be just like this one.

I'm waiting for something to go wrong because getting a new tank from Ducati has been too easy. maybe I sould've waited until I had the tank in my hands before posting this..  [laugh]


Mike


Yup- guess they gotta do somthing w/ the bum tanks. I sure don't want one.
When is your 5 yr. warrenty up?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on July 21, 2009, 10:26:57 AM
Signed up and finally submitted my info.

 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: thruxton on July 27, 2009, 09:39:48 PM
Yup- guess they gotta do somthing w/ the bum tanks. I sure don't want one.
When is your 5 yr. warrenty up?

wow. my dealer submitted my 07' tank problems under emissions as well. i was thinking in my head WTF i'm doomed to fail that effort, but perhaps i will get lucky as well  ???

lucky, because i would not want to buy (almost $2000!) one of these tanks, that, as you say, will just fail again. fingers crossed for a replacement but i am still thinking of the fuel cel tank (if they make one for the S4Rs?)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 28, 2009, 06:35:15 AM
wow. my dealer submitted my 07' tank problems under emissions as well. i was thinking in my head WTF i'm doomed to fail that effort, but perhaps i will get lucky as well  ???

lucky, because i would not want to buy (almost $2000!) one of these tanks, that, as you say, will just fail again. fingers crossed for a replacement but i am still thinking of the fuel cel tank (if they make one for the S4Rs?)

Good luck- but just crossing my fingers was never an option re: gallons of explosive liquid under my crotch. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: damianS4RS on July 28, 2009, 04:46:07 PM
Signed up as well. Thanks for doing this. I plan to go to the dealership this weekend to see what they say. I'm hoping all you guys used up their reserve of plastic tanks and they'll send me a carbon.  ;D [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cdv478 on July 28, 2009, 05:50:39 PM
I signed up today. Last Friday, I got my '07 S2R back from a 4 month warranty stay at the dealer for a wiring harness. I noticed that the tank mounts at the bottom of my tank sit about 1/8" outboard of being centered on the frame. After looking at photos I took in Feb '08, I can see that the tank sits differently. There are no problems with the steering lock and I can access the tank latch, but I figured it's best to start documenting it now, as it's only a matter of time before the tank gets worse. I'm going back to the dealer this weekend to see if they will acknowledge the problem and what they might do about it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 28, 2009, 09:49:27 PM
2 weeks later no word.

i bought a steel tank with a ding in it. im going to repair it and polish it and PC it. 4.5gal fill ups here i come!!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: schtirlitz on July 29, 2009, 07:14:04 AM
Hey all just signed up.. Thanks

Also just got a call from Speed's Cycle in Elkridge, MD that my tank was approved for replacement under Emission Warranty by DNA and the tank is in.

Good thing, i guess.. One issue though, what do i do if it expands again..

Cheers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kumabull on July 29, 2009, 08:35:46 AM
Crazy I just emailed Joe at Speeds about doing the same thing for me.... Small world I hope I get approved as well im swinging by Sat so Chad can take a look.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Cabbie on July 30, 2009, 09:48:09 AM
Easy fix for the issue...

Under your gascap is a little green fitting, it seals to the bottom of the gas cap.  Simply grab a pair of pliars, and rip that sucker off there... and throw it away...

No more venting issue, and the ONLY downside is that IF the bike falls over, the cap will allow some fuel to spill onto the EPA protected ground.

Its the EPA's fault the tanks are expanding.. seriously..

BTW, by removing the vent seal, you allow the tank to vent quicker, and that unloads the fuel pump and actually gives a slight boost in HP, by increasing fuel pressure.

Will

I would be careful doing this, there is another downide to doing this.. If you pull that seal, you will almost certainly void your warranty and any claim you might have had because you are altering the stock makeup of the tank..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 30, 2009, 10:40:30 AM
I would be careful doing this, there is another downide to doing this.. If you pull that seal, you will almost certainly void your warranty and any claim you might have had because you are altering the stock makeup of the tank..

I would give it about a 0.001% chance that pressure is causing the deformation.  There is plenty of venting available. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on July 31, 2009, 11:55:47 AM
I would give it about a 0.001% chance that pressure is causing the deformation.  There is plenty of venting available. 

I don't think the odds are even that high that this is a venting issue..  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 03, 2009, 06:33:25 AM
They would have to have the molds made (one cost) and then get them EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certified.  It would require a redesign of the pump and interior.   You can't just slap some sheet metal on and go.  The S2R tank is very different from the M900, etc.

Using the current plastic rotomolds, they have no setup or certification costs, just material and labor to remake tanks with better material. 

Far far far cheaper to remake plastic tanks.

I don't understand why they would have to redesign the pump or the interior.  I just transferred the pump from my stock steel 1000SS tank to a carbon kevlar ETI FuelCel on my track bike; that didn't require any changes at all.

As far as different versions go, my understanding is that it is the floor of the tank that is different for each plastic model, due to the different airbox configurations for the different motors.  The floor of the tank in a steel tank is a separate part from the rest of the tank.  So, as I said, Ducati makes three or four variants of the floor of the tank, and all the replacement tanks share the same upper/outer/side formed steel shell.  Have any M900 owners had this problem?  Any M620/695 owners?  Afaik, it is limited to S2R800/S2R1000/S4Rs models.

If Ducati makes a DIFFERENT plastic tank (no indication that they are) won't it also have to go through the same EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certification process as a replacement steel tank would have to?  Won't DOT/EPA/NHTSA/TUV etc. have to sign off on any changes to the plastic used, regardless of whether the same mold is used or not?  Are there no material standards for fuel tank design and production?

If they don't make a different plastic tank, and just keep making the same tank, and replace the tanks that have grown/warped/bubbled with the exact same tank, won't they have a perpetual safety hazard as well as a disgruntled owner community to deal with?   What is cheaper in the long run?  That spending the money now to solve a well known problem with a well known and proven solution that will certainly end the anger and reassure the owner community that Ducati is looking out for them, or to continually dick around on a case by case basis, and actually replace materially deficient, extremely expensive components, with the EXACT SAME deficient assembly as a warranty "fix?"

I'm not saying that Ducati WILL make steel tanks, but it is certainly my opinion that they SHOULD make steel tanks to resolve what appears to be a major problem with their product on the market.  I've been buying Ducatis since 1986, and have owned about 15 of them (I have five right now), and this situation angers me to the point that I'm not at all certain that I'll be buying another one of their bikes in the future.  I'll certainly not buy another brand new one until this issue is properly resolved.

My tank is almost worn through from rubbing against the plastic housing of the ignition key. I think it is a clear safety hazard.  Practically speaking, it is also an annoyance and a hindrance to working on and maintaining the motorcycle.   To remove and replace the tank is an exercise in frustration and extra work. 

This past Saturday, DucPond Motorsports examined my tank, measured it, took notes on it, and took pictures of it, and will be submitting a warranty claim on my behalf.   I hope Ducati honors the warranty and replaces the tank.  I hope the replacement tank (if provided) doesn't start exhibiting the same problems as the original oem tank.  But I think it will.  I expect it to.

I'll probably end up commissioning some British artisan to pound out an aluminum alloy replacement tank, unless ETI FuelCel actually comes out with a carbon kevlar tank that works on the S4Rs model, in which case I'd  buy one of those to put this problem behind me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 03, 2009, 06:59:01 AM
If Ducati makes a DIFFERENT plastic tank (no indication that they are) won't it also have to go through the same EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certification process as a replacement steel tank would have to?  Won't DOT/EPA/NHTSA/TUV etc. have to sign off on any changes to the plastic used, regardless of whether the same mold is used or not?  Are there no material standards for fuel tank design and production?

No.  The issue for EPA/NHTSA is the venting.  Make a new tank means the venting has to be certified. The material is not the issue (rather, getting a new tank certified only requires basic crush testing for NHTSA but significant venting testing for EPA).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 03, 2009, 08:09:55 AM
No.  The issue is the venting.  Make a new tank means the venting has to be certified. The material is not the issue.


I find that surprising.  Guess I'll have to educate myself on NHTSA/DOT/EPA/TUV European motorcycle tank venting rules and regulations.  Sigh.   The things one has to know to pursue a motorcycling hobby these days!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 03, 2009, 10:30:19 AM
I find that surprising.  Guess I'll have to educate myself on NHTSA/DOT/EPA/TUV European motorcycle tank venting rules and regulations.  Sigh.   The things one has to know to pursue a motorcycling hobby these days!

Law school isn't cheap!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 03, 2009, 03:55:21 PM
Just signed-up.  Thanks for doing this.

Stupid Ducati....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 03, 2009, 04:11:55 PM
Just signed-up.  Thanks for doing this.

Stupid Ducati....

I wouldn't lean too hard on Ducati for the mistake -- gasoline in Europe doesn't have ethanol (yet) and that is looking to be the big problem.  Ducati outsourced the tank manufacture, and I bet the maker (Ascerbis) is actually the culprit.  I would not be surprised if there is (or will be) some litigation on it between them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 04, 2009, 03:24:15 PM
[roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll]   

what?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on August 05, 2009, 07:28:52 AM
OK, now I know what you're talking about.  I should prob. delete my other posts..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 07, 2009, 08:51:40 AM
NHTSA complaints from monster owners re: fuel system so far:

Year       # reg.complaint
2005               2
2006               2
2007               3
2008               0
2009               0

Compared to the sport classic guys- 27 complaints for 2007 models, and 22 for 2006.
Guess that's why they're getting new designed/formulated tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2009, 09:21:14 AM
NHTSA complaints from monster owners re: fuel system so far:

Year       # reg.complaint
2005               1
2006               2
2007               3
2008               0
2009               0

Compared to the sport classic guys- 25 complaints for 2007 models alone.
Guess that's why they're getting new designed/formulated tanks.


where did you get this?  link?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 07, 2009, 10:24:20 AM
NHTSA complaints from monster owners re: fuel system so far:

Year       # reg.complaint
2005               1
2006               2
2007               3
2008               0
2009               0

Compared to the sport classic guys- 25 complaints for 2007 models alone.
Guess that's why they're getting new designed/formulated tanks.


Much more likely because they are current, ongoing models.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 07, 2009, 01:29:58 PM
where did you get this?  link?
try: http://www.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

Same pg. as the submit complaint one.
click on "search complaints"
it's a pain, as you need to search through each year, model.
Again- thanks for your attention in this matter. Still haven't heard back from the NHTSA inspectors.
Also I revised my count on my above post.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on August 08, 2009, 06:56:24 AM
I just submitted my complaint...  I have a 2007 695, but it wasn't on the pulldown menu so I put in 2007 S2R1000


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 08, 2009, 07:44:52 AM
try: http://www.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

Same pg. as the submit complaint one.
click on "search complaints"
it's a pain, as you need to search through each year, model.
Again- thanks for your attention in this matter. Still haven't heard back from the NHTSA inspectors.
Also I revised my count on my above post.

I saw the lookup now, thanks for offering that.  I'm going to post that up to the sign-up list as a reminder.  People need to get off their asses.

Re:  NHTSA, did you get a report number?  I got one and got an email from them with the report #


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 08, 2009, 09:47:57 AM
yes-got a report # and e-mail some time ago.
Can't believe folks haven't done the online form yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 08, 2009, 02:22:35 PM
WEll it looks like i got myself a new tank, its slated for late august, since well. its august and its italy.  :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 09, 2009, 12:54:00 PM
Just filled out the online form.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Qwack on August 18, 2009, 03:07:22 AM
Just noticed problems this weekend, contacting dealership today to see when they can take a look at the bike and put a claim in for me.  Its still under warranty. so I shouldn't have any trouble...

Will sign up later today...Thanks for doing this 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on August 21, 2009, 04:55:23 PM
Ive had my bike for a little over a year now, and I have to say I was sceptical about any issues with the tanks. Until now, as I am starting to look over the bike and see what I can do to clean up the rats nest of hoses and wires, I notice that my tank, right side in front of the knee indents, looks like its starting to bubble. I will notify my dealer next week when I take it in for the 7k service. What exactly do you do to sign up? Also, what about the aftermarket fuel caps? Will these cause warranty issues?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 22, 2009, 04:39:03 AM
Ive had my bike for a little over a year now, and I have to say I was sceptical about any issues with the tanks. Until now, as I am starting to look over the bike and see what I can do to clean up the rats nest of hoses and wires, I notice that my tank, right side in front of the knee indents, looks like its starting to bubble. I will notify my dealer next week when I take it in for the 7k service. What exactly do you do to sign up? Also, what about the aftermarket fuel caps? Will these cause warranty issues?

Read the first post for the entire explanation of what I am trying to do and the sign up list link:

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074)


In Short, I am getting as many folks as possible to put together a polite demand letter to Ducati to fix the tank problems permanently and to warranty the replacement tanks.

Secondly, everyone needs to file a NHTSA report so that this can be tracked officially.  The more that people report it, the more pressure will be put on Ducati to fix the problem.

I just feel bad for the Euro/UK riders who will be screwed when Europe introduces E5 and E10 gasoline in the next few years.  They will have a 2-3 year "Sword of Damocles" over them.  I don't know what recourse they will have by then.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 22, 2009, 09:10:01 AM
I've got an appt with Nathan at DucPond on Wednesday.  We will see if I can get it warrantied.  I sent him some pics of the swelling and he said it is one of the worst he has seen.  I'll file with the feds shortly thereafter.

Thanks again Ducatiz. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 22, 2009, 09:18:37 AM
I've got an appt with Nathan at DucPond on Wednesday.  We will see if I can get it warrantied.  I sent him some pics of the swelling and he said it is one of the worst he has seen.  I'll file with the feds shortly thereafter.

Thanks again Ducatiz. [thumbsup]

Angler, what mods do you have on your bike, engine-wise?  I am curious what they are looking for/at when they look at the tanks.

Also, please post your pics? (or email them to me and I'll post)

thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Qwack on August 22, 2009, 10:18:15 AM
Hubby took bike to Dealership Tuesday, they filed with DNA and THursday we got word that DNA will replace my tank  [thumbsup]  I took a pix of the spacing or rather lack of spacing of the tank to the Key the dimpling on the sides was too hard to get photos of.  I will send you the pix if you need it.  off to sign up on the yahoo list and the national list too.  thanks for everything DUCATIZ...

BTW: dealership had told me that Triumph had had these problems and they switched back to metal tanks...gee wouldn't that be nice if Ducati would just do that too  :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 22, 2009, 10:21:02 AM
Angler, what mods do you have on your bike, engine-wise?  I am curious what they are looking for/at when they look at the tanks.

Also, please post your pics? (or email them to me and I'll post)

thanks

I have no vapor system and boomtubes.  Those are really the only mods that might make a difference.

Nathan said that he needed to take pictures of the bike and take measurements himself.  I also need a TPS check/reset since installing the exhaust, so it worked out.  At first when he said just to email him some pics, I thought I might get lucky and get an answer without having to ride out there as it is a haul.

Here are a few pictures

Area on tank where the key/latch area has rubber through the paint and is now rubbing through the tank:
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345769231_1545666740_442860_6494957_n.jpg)

Right side ripples and bubbles. Oddly there are no ripples on the left side:
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345889234_1545666740_442863_8246045_n.jpg)

Right side ripples II:
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6209_1174345969236_1545666740_442864_3318327_n.jpg)

Right side bumper:
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345849233_1545666740_442862_101694_n.jpg)

Left side bumper:
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345809232_1545666740_442861_7545765_n.jpg)

Cracks/blisters around filler:
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6209_1174348569301_1545666740_442885_5260369_n.jpg)

Bump on tank:
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6209_1174348609302_1545666740_442886_7104941_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 22, 2009, 01:45:32 PM
Wow- that's horrible! I'd file w/ the feds right now, Your 5 year emissions warrenty is up next year.
Guess that's what the US '06 owners have in store in about a year?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 23, 2009, 10:54:59 AM
pretty much. Theres a email going around tahts been trying to get people to sign up so ducatiz can submit the email. but for some reason, people are too lazy to check it. Im sure you guys either have him on block by accident, or are just ignoring it.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE submit your name and VIN. Just because Ducati will replace it once, does not mean it will not swell again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 23, 2009, 02:08:44 PM
NHTSA complaints filed.

Looks like only 2 more for 2005's
2 more for 2007 since my last tally 2 weeks ago.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: slipperymike on August 24, 2009, 10:06:04 PM
Filed mine. Also replied to the email with my required info. Hopefully I'll be able to get down to the dealer soon to have them take a look. Is it neccessary to make an appointment? I've never been to my dealer (motocorsa).

Thanks for everything!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2009, 03:20:17 AM

Just call them.  The initial lookover will just be an exam and photos.  Mine didn't need an appt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on August 25, 2009, 11:02:18 AM

how do you search for complaints without the ODI number? The only ODI I have is for my complaint so that's the only one I can see.. It's not the easiest website to nav.


NHTSA complaints filed.

Looks like only 2 more for 2005's
2 more for 2007 since my last tally 2 weeks ago.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2009, 11:22:45 AM
Same search interface.  Click vehicle button and the search button under


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 25, 2009, 01:55:51 PM
I just heard back from my dealer today, looks like I will be getting a new tank also.  I have also filed a complaint online w/ the NHTSA about 2 weeks ago.

I am wondering if my 5 year emissions warranty clock "resets", so that when this happens in another 4 years or so, I can get another new tank.  Of course it would be nice if Ducati just fixed the issue correctly and gave us all metal tanks as replacements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2009, 02:21:44 PM
Nope.  Neither warranty resets that I know of.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 26, 2009, 09:55:43 AM
Just got back from Ducpond.  They think I will get it warrantied.  He was a bit concerned because the tank had been repainted, which was news to me.  I'll know by Friday.  I'll file my NHTSA complaint soon.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Rufus120 on August 26, 2009, 05:51:52 PM
Ok so I shot you off an email at this address as I don't have a yahoo account.

ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I would guess my tank is only starting to bubble and isn't as bad as some of the pics here, but I'd like to try and best one step ahead.  I'll make an appointment to have it looked at by Moto Corsa here in Portland. I'm the second owner of my bike.  Is that going to matter? The original owner bought in there.  If that doesn't matter than and they turn me down I'll file my complaint.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2009, 06:01:38 PM
Ok so I shot you off an email at this address as I don't have a yahoo account.

ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I would guess my tank is only starting to bubble and isn't as bad as some of the pics here, but I'd like to try and best one step ahead.  I'll make an appointment to have it looked at by Moto Corsa here in Portland. I'm the second owner of my bike.  Is that going to matter? The original owner bought in there.  If that doesn't matter than and they turn me down I'll file my complaint.

it doesn't matter, and you should file the incident report with NHTSA no matter what.

the NHTSA report is not a complaint, it is a report of a DEFECT.  it has no bearing on the dealer's reporting back to Ducati, it is to give the Feds a heads-up that Ducati sold a defective (and possibly dangerous) gas tank on multiple models. 

DO THE REPORT no matter what the result of your visit to the dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on August 29, 2009, 12:14:48 PM
I took my S2R in today for the 7500 mile check-up, and notified the tech that i had some deformation with the tank. He took a look and siad he will file a claim with Ducati. He sounded very confident that they would simply replace the tank. Now I am a wait and see. So do I file a report with the NHTSA now, or do I wait until I hear what the verdict will be?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 29, 2009, 01:15:57 PM
I took my S2R in today for the 7500 mile check-up, and notified the tech that i had some deformation with the tank. He took a look and siad he will file a claim with Ducati. He sounded very confident that they would simply replace the tank. Now I am a wait and see. So do I file a report with the NHTSA now, or do I wait until I hear what the verdict will be?
it doesn't matter, and you should file the incident report with NHTSA no matter what.

the NHTSA report is not a complaint, it is a report of a DEFECT.  it has no bearing on the dealer's reporting back to Ducati, it is to give the Feds a heads-up that Ducati sold a defective (and possibly dangerous) gas tank on multiple models. 

DO THE REPORT no matter what the result of your visit to the dealer.
scduc, you were kidding with that question right? The answer was literally posted right above your post.  You must have read it before you posted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on August 29, 2009, 04:29:22 PM
scduc, you were kidding with that question right? The answer was literally posted right above your post.  You must have read it before you posted.
Yeah, I know. my brain must of farted. It's only been a couple of hours, but I think I may be going through withdrawal's. Any way, I fill out th eforms the best I could, cuz there was no report for 08' S2R. I do however have an ODI #. So all is good, yes?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Qwack on August 29, 2009, 05:23:16 PM
ducatiz , send an email to that subscribe address you gave, and got no reply email....so I signed up on yahoo, and I must be doing something wrong as I have not received any email back to send my info to...what on earth am I doing wrong... [bang]

BTE my new tank is in at dealership will have installed next week  [thumbsup]

thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 30, 2009, 05:02:22 AM
NHTSA monster tank report talley

'05  4 filed
'06  3 filed
'07  6 filed
'08  1 filed

Still haven't heard from an instector, and I filed well over a month ago. Must not have enough on file to make this issue very important.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 30, 2009, 08:17:04 AM
NHTSA monster tank report talley

'05  4 filed
'06  3 filed
'07  6 filed
'08  1 filed

Still haven't heard from an instector, and I filed well over a month ago. Must not have enough on file to make this issue very important.

thanks for posting this.

people need to get off their asses.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 30, 2009, 08:37:45 AM
Officially off my ass - complaint has been submitted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 31, 2009, 05:51:58 AM
Filed my report with the NHTSA today.  Interestingly enough, I noted another 2007 S4RS complaint about failed TPS sensors causing stalling.  I have already had my throttle bodies replaced TWICE on my bike for this very problem.  Looks like I'll be filing a second complaint after I get home and have access to my service records!

Oh, and it's been several weeks and I have not heard back from DucPond about my Warranty claim with Ducati.  <sigh>  Guess I'll have to call them and find out what's going on (or what's not going on, more likely.)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on September 03, 2009, 11:44:21 AM
WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

I just got word from Nathan over at DucPond - DNA is going to replace my tank!!!

Unfortunately, they have one dark tank on back order in front of me so it may take 2-3 weeks (or more is my guess) to get it done.  That is A-OK by me.......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 03, 2009, 12:03:33 PM
still waiting word back from ducati on my tank...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2009, 12:30:22 PM
Yeah I bet you want a new one especially now


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on September 03, 2009, 01:12:37 PM
Okay, so finally filed a report.  Oddly, they have 696 in the drop down for '07 when it wasn't offered, but not the 695.  Oh, well.

My local dealer, Renaissance Motorcycles, said they ought to have a new tank for me in about a month.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 04, 2009, 08:16:27 AM
Yeah I bet you want a new one especially now

 [bang] i dont even care if its pink.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 04, 2009, 08:45:33 AM
[bang] i dont even care if its pink.

one in the pink, as long as it don't stink?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 04, 2009, 10:17:27 AM
Rode into work today- tank is so bad it's absurd.
BUT-
I'm reluctant to get a replacement. Wondering if I'd get denied a new improved version once our efforts to petition/ pressure Ducati into a permanent fix comes to fruition, claiming that I was already taken care of within the 5 year period.

In other words- has anyone got a warrenty statement on their replacement tank yet?

Thanks everyone!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on September 04, 2009, 05:35:05 PM
Still waiting on my replacement. Approximate delivery date 9/14/09


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 04, 2009, 05:59:03 PM
Rode into work today- tank is so bad it's absurd.
BUT-
I'm reluctant to get a replacement. Wondering if I'd get denied a new improved version once our efforts to petition/ pressure Ducati into a permanent fix comes to fruition, claiming that I was already taken care of within the 5 year period.

In other words- has anyone got a warrenty statement on their replacement tank yet?

Thanks everyone!

at least one person i've communicated with has gotten a SECOND replacement.

my plan is to get a lifetime warranty on the replacement tank against expansion.  i don't know how likely that is, but it seems to me they have a manufacturing defect here and if they are just going to slap on the same kind of tank with the same kind of problem its not going to do anybody any good -- it just ends up delaying the same problem for another 2-3 years ( and in many cases, new owners )

They have to make it good.  if they sold a frame that broke and then replaced it with a frame that broke, you can bet they would have a lot more eyes on them. 

Make the NHTSA report and go ahead and get the replacement -- and make sure you're on my mailing list.  (see signup info in OP)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 05, 2009, 05:19:59 AM
Just got my replacement tank yesterday.  No one at the shop could tell me if I was covered if this happens again in another 2-3 years.  Regarding the new tank...WOW, I can't believe how much the old one had warped!!!!!  I have sooo much room at the tank latch/ignition now.   I also had to readjust my steering stops, crickey that thing was wacked!!!  I actually have a near normal turning radius now.   [thumbsup]

Now I just need to replace my tank pad.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 05, 2009, 11:48:28 AM
Just got my replacement tank yesterday.  No one at the shop could tell me if I was covered if this happens again in another 2-3 years.  Regarding the new tank...WOW, I can't believe how much the old one had warped!!!!!  I have sooo much room at the tank latch/ignition now.   I also had to readjust my steering stops, crickey that thing was wacked!!!  I actually have a near normal turning radius now.   [thumbsup]

Guess that's what we're worried about- in 2-3 yrs., you'll be out of warrenty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on September 05, 2009, 12:30:06 PM
Filed my report with the NHTSA today.  Interestingly enough, I noted another 2007 S4RS complaint about failed TPS sensors causing stalling.  I have already had my throttle bodies replaced TWICE on my bike for this very problem.  Looks like I'll be filing a second complaint after I get home and have access to my service records!

Oh, and it's been several weeks and I have not heard back from DucPond about my Warranty claim with Ducati.  <sigh>  Guess I'll have to call them and find out what's going on (or what's not going on, more likely.)

Word from Ducpond is that the warranty claim has been accepted by Ducati and a new tank will arrive on 9/14.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: motolocopat on September 06, 2009, 04:00:55 AM
Are we talking about all non-metallic tanks here... such as the one on my 06 S2R1000?

I haven't noticed any problem with it as far as expansion or wavy sides...
Assuming this is on of the potentially affected bikes do I have to wait until there is a problem?
Doesn't seem right.
Once it has been identified as a problem I'd think that there should be a recall of all affected serial numbers... in a perfect world anyway.

So how about this non-perfect world, can I sign up as having one of the tanks that was built with a faulty process or do I have to wait until there is a problem?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 06, 2009, 04:42:29 AM
All plastic tanks on all monsters are suspect.

No recall yet.  Not enough ppl filing NHTSA reports

I've got about 60 ppl on my signup list but only about 15 have filed.

Not gonna get a recall with only 15 reports on 20 diff bikes (year and model)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on September 06, 2009, 11:51:28 AM
Iz i sent a repot and emailed you the number if you need it thanks again for this  [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ZOSO on September 06, 2009, 12:14:51 PM
Just e-mailed ducatiz to subscribe due to my ever-expanding tank .  .  .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 06, 2009, 04:14:16 PM
thanks! just joined the list...  [bow_down]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 07, 2009, 09:12:39 AM
When you guys sign up, be sure to reply to the auto mail.  I need your contact info and VIN.

-iz


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 08, 2009, 07:54:09 AM
just filed my report, and I went to a local ducati dealership and they'll be ordering me a new tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: JustDucky on September 08, 2009, 11:24:11 PM
'Nother sign up to the mailing list. :'(
 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 10, 2009, 09:36:36 AM
Tally of Latest NHSTA complaints filed
2008-- 2 filed
2007-- 9
2006-- 6
2005-- 6

Outlook is getting better toward a permanent fix. For those still unfiled: please follow the directions and fill out the little form! This might just work and we can get a good tank FO' FREE! And not pay $1300 for the same crap or more for an upgrade.
Time is running out for the 2005 guys.
Thanks.J.P.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on September 11, 2009, 04:04:46 PM
given this doesnt work are there aftermarket tanks out there that will last? I really like my bike but i need a bike i can keep for a long time. Idont want to be buying tanks everytime the winter olympics come around


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 11, 2009, 04:06:23 PM
given this doesnt work are there aftermarket tanks out there that will last? I really like my bike but i need a bike i can keep for a long time. Idont want to be buying tanks everytime the winter olympics come around

yes there are a few, they are pricey.. none are copies of the stock setup, they are superlight or high capacity models.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 15, 2009, 03:15:38 PM
My dealer called me today and said that my new tank is slated for delivery mid to end of November. I'm cool with that. Just hope that if Ducati ever does fix the problem and my new tank does it again, that they will re-replace.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 16, 2009, 07:30:12 AM
nevermind


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 16, 2009, 08:05:29 AM
I used to hope that our O2/ecu problems would be fixed for free.
I hoped that I would get a gauge pod that wouldn't fog up.
Or a rear brake that didn't need bleeding 2x a year.
Or cases that didn't bubble under the paint.
Or maybe a tank that works as it should- I can't lock my steering or lift the tank latch.
So far I've learned that hope and a nickle will get you a cup of Jack Squat.
I've lost all hope. Time for action.


getting organized and asking nicely sometimes will do the trick.  most small manufacturers (like Ducati) respond well when 100+ people call up and say "we're all having the same problem, why don't you do something about it."  bad publicity is the last thing they need for telling loyal owners to pound sand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 18, 2009, 06:48:57 PM
just filed my report, and I went to a local ducati dealership and they'll be ordering me a new tank.

update, the dealership called me (Valley Motorsports in Northampton, MA) today and informed me that the tank was in! This only took 10 days. I scheduled an appointment for early next week and they said they would install the tank while I waited as it only would take an hour or so. I can't thank ducatiz enough for the assistance with this.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 19, 2009, 10:20:23 AM
well thanks i guess, i am learning just like everyone else.  maybe someone was reading this thread and pushed things along for tank problems at DNA -- who knows?

either way, something is wrong with those tanks and Ducati should make it right.  it's not like it has happened on 2 or 3 of them, it's happening on all of them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on September 19, 2009, 11:32:53 AM
Mine has arrived as well.  I'm going to Indy Ducati and have it replaced next Saturday.
 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 19, 2009, 03:27:29 PM
i emailed my dealer, havent heard from them..its been about 2 months. will try calling tomorrow. I have a feeling they are pulling my leg.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 20, 2009, 04:53:50 AM
Mine has also been almost 2 months...  They say it is on the way though, hopefully by the end of the month.  I don't get why some are taking so long, and some people are getting there's in less than two weeks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 20, 2009, 06:25:17 AM
Mine has also been almost 2 months...  They say it is on the way though, hopefully by the end of the month.  I don't get why some are taking so long, and some people are getting there's in less than two weeks!

probably depends on the dealership, unfortunately.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 20, 2009, 08:56:54 AM
I imagine part of it is the color, some are more common than others.  Mine is Acid Yellow and was only on the S2R for '05...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 21, 2009, 03:05:25 PM
Well mine is gloss black.  Maybe that's kind of uncommon


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 21, 2009, 03:27:38 PM
i dont even know what mine is. bike was orignally silver with black stripe. but its black now.

still havent gotten word from them.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 22, 2009, 11:44:01 AM
Just got my replacement tank yesterday.  No one at the shop could tell me if I was covered if this happens again in another 2-3 years.  Regarding the new tank...WOW, I can't believe how much the old one had warped!!!!!  I have sooo much room at the tank latch/ignition now.   I also had to readjust my steering stops, crickey that thing was wacked!!!  I actually have a near normal turning radius now.   [thumbsup]

Now I just need to replace my tank pad.

got my tank today, what a difference! Again, mine was significantly warped as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: yotogi on September 22, 2009, 12:29:54 PM
Just signed up, haven't noticed anything TOO crazy with mine, but I suspect I am getting expansion.

Can one of the people who have received a new tank post a top down of your tank at the latch. I am looking to see just how far away from the ignition the tank is supposed to be.

TIA!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 22, 2009, 01:48:27 PM
here you go... note the boss on the right side of the ignition lock. On my bike prior to the tank being replaced, the tank was rubbing on the lock and it was almost impossible to unlatch the tank.

(http://home.comcast.net/~c.duarte/monster695e.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 1d10t on September 22, 2009, 02:51:17 PM
Just filed mine with the NHTSA.  Pull down doesn't have 2006 S2R1000 listed so I filed it as a 2007 S2R1000.  I also subscribed to the Yahoo group.  I'll get the information to you shortly when I get home.

Funny thing was I noticed the tank's rubber feet didn't line up with the frame and I was having a difficult time getting the tank latch to hook up.  I thought I was going crazy.  Love my bike and I'd like to keep it for years.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on September 23, 2009, 10:55:50 AM
My complaint was filed with the NHTSA, my warranty claim was filed with Ducati, and yesterday I got the call that the new tank had arrived at the dealer.   Guess I'll have it installed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on September 24, 2009, 08:21:31 AM
Update:

my top triple is now leaving a scratch on my tank in the full lock positon [bang] [bang] [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: orenjimonster on September 24, 2009, 09:17:20 AM
i just got my S2R and I can't wait to see what shape my tank turn into. the previous owner already had the tank replaced once...  [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 26, 2009, 06:17:36 AM
How do you guys get the tanks so quickly?

this is the email i receieved..
Quote
"Im sorry I havent been able to get back to you I've been out for a bit, unfortunately, the tank is still not in and its been over 2 months, everytime I process an availability for the tank it comes up as not available and will give a a backorder date, when I've contacted DNA they cannot give me a eta for the tank, I will stay on top of it for you and the minute I get any news I'll get back in contact with you."


I'm pretty sure they are just busting my balls from the get go...



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 26, 2009, 03:15:15 PM
They might be.  Although different dealers might have better or worse relationships w/ DNA.  That might have something to do w/ the expediancy of processing these claims.  I got my tank in 2 weeks; in August.  My dealer tried to give me the ol' "well its August, so don't expect this for atleast a month".  To which I replied, "Really?  I know for a fact that several people form the DMF have gotten their replacement tanks in 1-2 weeks this month (it was august). "
Needless to say, my tank arrived shortly thereafter.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 26, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
 They told me my tank would be in some time in November. That was 2 weeks ago. So much to my surprise when I get there, to pick her up after the 7500mile check-up, I see a  new tank on bike. Swwweeet. Then they tell me they are closing the doors for good at the end of Oct. I almost wanted to puke.  [puke] This will be the second dealer in the past 10 years to close in my area. Well the first just stopped selling duc's.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 26, 2009, 05:17:55 PM
How do you guys get the tanks so quickly?

this is the email i receieved..

I'm pretty sure they are just busting my balls from the get go...



go to the dealership and be a squeaky wheel... actually, I took my bike up to a ducati shop I'd never been to before, showed them what was wrong with the tank, and they took very good care of me. I got my tank in 10 days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 27, 2009, 04:36:30 AM
Then they tell me they are closing the doors for good at the end of Oct. I almost wanted to puke.  [puke]

Do you go to Corse Superbikes?  I just found that out yesterday too....  That sucks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 27, 2009, 05:33:31 AM
Do you go to Corse Superbikes?  I just found that out yesterday too....  That sucks
Yes, Kevin says that DNA "will" be opening a new dealership in the spring. I wont hold my breath, but I would sure be happy if they did.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 27, 2009, 09:24:49 AM
So what do u guys think i should do. I can show up barking. But theres no point. Its not my dealership, i never bought a damn thing from them, and i dont expect them to help me. I refused to buy stuff from them, and i thought this would change my mind. but it just reinforces what i think.

Ill give them 2 weeks and then email them again and tell them that i know a bunch of people who got their tanks within days. But other then that, i dont think i have a recourse.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 27, 2009, 11:36:46 AM
Yes, Kevin says that DNA "will" be opening a new dealership in the spring. I wont hold my breath, but I would sure be happy if they did.

Yeah that's what they told me as well.  It would be nice if one shows up in Milwaukee!  But it does suck, they have a lot of good guys working there now, hopefully they can get on board with the new dealership


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 27, 2009, 02:03:44 PM
I think that DNA may be trying to settle the score with the dealerships that are closeing first. Think about it. If your dealer closes and you are still waiting for a tank, you may just be screwed. That would leave a serious issue for many people. However, if they fix the issues with the closeing dealers, that is one less problem to have to deal with. It may not be right/fair, but this way the unfortunate people can say "well at least I got my tank fixed".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on September 27, 2009, 03:04:28 PM
I just got mine installed yesterday. I waited 2 months for it.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 01, 2009, 11:04:22 AM
Sceduled to drop my S4Rs off at DucPond Motosports in Winchester, VA on Saturday, for them to install my recently arrived replacement tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 01, 2009, 11:09:31 AM
How long did it take?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 01, 2009, 12:47:28 PM
My new tank is being installed today - the shop said it would take about a month to get the new tank and we're at just under the month mark.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on October 01, 2009, 01:27:15 PM
Sceduled to drop my S4Rs off at DucPond Motosports in Winchester, VA on Saturday, for them to install my recently arrived replacement tank.

Donnie got mine in about a month-ish if I remember correctly.     Installed it while my Dad and I ate lunch across the street.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on October 01, 2009, 02:07:55 PM
How long did it take?
Just over 1 hr


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 01, 2009, 02:38:16 PM
Bufala!  Not to install it!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on October 01, 2009, 09:57:18 PM
Bufala!  Not to install it!
Mozzarella di bufala?  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 02, 2009, 06:28:04 AM
How long did it take?

About four weeks after the inspection for Ducati to authorize the replacement, and then about three weeks for the replacement tank to arrive.

I would love to have them install the tank while I wait, but I have to work tomorrow, and can't hang around, even if they were willing to do it first thing in the morning.   So I'll have to make two round trips....  :-(  Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 02, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
:(  im gotta stop checking this thread.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on October 02, 2009, 05:05:48 PM
:(  im gotta stop checking this thread.

I just got my new tank after one week and I don't even have a bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on October 02, 2009, 06:16:31 PM
I finally got my bike back with the new tank today.  It's so small!!!

I was looking around at the used bikes at the dealer while I was there, and every single monster with a plastic tank had the same problem too!

There was also hardly anyone there, so I sat on the Desmosedici in the corner for a minute while no one was looking, and made motorbike sounds  [leo]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 02, 2009, 06:24:02 PM
I finally got my bike back with the new tank today.  It's so small!!!

I was looking around at the used bikes at the dealer while I was there, and every single monster with a plastic tank had the same problem too!

they were selling used bikes with expanded tanks??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 03, 2009, 12:29:24 PM
You know. the tank expansion thing, could begin to explain why i have been getting 3.2-3.5 gallons per fill up. lol
I just got my new tank after one week and I don't even have a bike.


 >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 03, 2009, 06:24:15 PM
>:(

He was just messin' with ya. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on October 04, 2009, 05:00:27 AM
they were selling used bikes with expanded tanks??

Yup, literally every used plastic-tank monster had it.  At least 4 that I can remember! :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on October 04, 2009, 11:18:20 AM
Yup, literally every used plastic-tank monster had it.  At least 4 that I can remember! :o

Do they do test rides and is there another dealer nearby?

1) Test ride one, to the other dealer
2) Ask for a new tank, let them order it
3) When it comes in, bring test bike back, let them swap it in
4) Swap tanks back, return bike from test ride
5) Sell brand new tank on ebay
6) Profit!  :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on October 04, 2009, 12:03:00 PM
That's a pretty good idea!  Except a) there are no other dealers around, and b) this dealer is going out of business and will be gone before the new tank would come in!  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 04, 2009, 12:24:39 PM
Moreover the other dealer has to do the swap and send the tank back to DNA.  I asked to keep it and was told "hell no"

I asked to just take a core sample and same.  You can't have the old tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on October 04, 2009, 04:49:09 PM
Moreover the other dealer has to do the swap and send the tank back to DNA.  I asked to keep it and was told "hell no"

I asked to just take a core sample and same.  You can't have the old tank.
I have never heard of warranty work being done where the customer is allowed to keep the old parts. I dont think they even let you look at them after they have been removed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 04, 2009, 05:45:09 PM
I have never heard of warranty work being done where the customer is allowed to keep the old parts. I dont think they even let you look at them after they have been removed.

Most of these bikes are out of warranty.  Even the emissions warranty expires at 18k miles, so it's not technically a warranty job for most ppl. 

I wanted some of the material to have it checked out by a lab.  It would be easy enough to determine if ethanol has penetrated.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 05, 2009, 08:33:35 AM
What are the measurements supposed to be and what were yours?   How do you measure this?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 05, 2009, 08:49:29 AM
What are the measurements supposed to be and what were yours?   How do you measure this?

no one has measured the tank, most people go by the location of the rubber mounts on the bottom of the tank, the distance between the latch and front of the tank and the presence of rippling or bulging.

the rubber mounts are supposed to sit directly on the frame.  mine were sitting almost 3/4 inch outside the frame.  they are upside-down U shaped to cup the frame from above and my tank had expanded such that they did not make direct contact at all.

the front latch should open and close easily.  it is designed to be tension locked down and to close without effort.  mine was so bad, the latch sat on top of the keyswitch and actually latching it would require the keyswitch to move forward about half an inch (not a possibility) or the tank to move back (mine was as far back as designed).

lastly, there should be no rippling or bulging on the sides of the tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 05, 2009, 09:16:06 AM
I just noticed the other day that I have a dimple in the tank kinda near the logo and I have wear marks from the ignition rubbing the tank paint.  Those weren't there earlier this year.  I'll have to look for this other stuff too.  I just sent an email in to my buddy at ducati Indy.  We'll see what's up and what they've seen.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 05, 2009, 10:06:58 AM
I just noticed the other day that I have a dimple in the tank kinda near the logo and I have wear marks from the ignition rubbing the tank paint.  Those weren't there earlier this year.  I'll have to look for this other stuff too.  I just sent an email in to my buddy at ducati Indy.  We'll see what's up and what they've seen.

God help me if you get your tank before I do. :/


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 05, 2009, 11:11:17 AM
God help me if you get your tank before I do. :/

Are you trying to get a tank through ducati indy?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 05, 2009, 11:50:04 AM
God help me if you get your tank before I do. :/

what color tank are you getting?  i've heard now that the silver/black and gloss black tanks are coming slow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 05, 2009, 12:44:22 PM
I dont know. They never told me what color i'm getting. alls i knows is, im authorized for a tank...so they say. I emailed him and asked him if he could get me another color like red.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 05, 2009, 04:45:33 PM
I dont know. They never told me what color i'm getting. alls i knows is, im authorized for a tank...so they say. I emailed him and asked him if he could get me another color like red.

From what I understand, yes, dealers were allowing ppl to get whatever color they wanted. 

Everyone should get something other than yellow, even if they have a yellow bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 05, 2009, 07:10:21 PM
From what I understand, yes, dealers were allowing ppl to get whatever color they wanted. 

Everyone should get something other than yellow, even if they have a yellow bike.

so that means im not going to get the color i want? (until dec 31...im considering myself to still ahve bad luck lol)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 06, 2009, 03:42:33 AM
I can wait, so long as my current tank keeps working. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 06, 2009, 06:12:17 AM
what color tank are you getting?  i've heard now that the silver/black and gloss black tanks are coming slow.

I got my gloss black in <30 days


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 06, 2009, 09:11:03 AM
A friend showed me this place.  Not that I want to spend money on my own tank but it'd be nice if ducati just gave us aluminum tanks

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 06, 2009, 11:26:39 AM
jizzzzzzzz

I LOVE aluminum tanks. oddly, ive dropped my bike twice and the aluminum never dented even with the handle bar smack right into it. Must of gotten lucky. But they are awesome tanks. wish i still had it.  :-[


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on October 07, 2009, 07:44:05 AM
I read that Al causes problems in an uncoated tank as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 07, 2009, 09:13:35 AM
I read that Al causes problems in an uncoated tank as well.

uncoated?  in what manner?

if it is properly anodized, it should be impervious to any solvents, including gasoline, ethanol, etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 07, 2009, 09:25:33 AM
A friend showed me this place.  Not that I want to spend money on my own tank but it'd be nice if ducati just gave us aluminum tanks

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

Thanks for the link.  I have an e-mail in to see if the fuel injected version of the tank fits the testastretta models or not.   I'd love to get one of these, have DucPainter paint it in oem colors and striping and lettering, and then put my oem replacement tank on the shelf until/if I sell the bike.   I honestly don't expect the oem replacement tanks to last any longer or perform any differently than the ones they are replacing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 07, 2009, 09:28:45 AM
Thanks for the link.  I have an e-mail in to see if the fuel injected version of the tank fits the testastretta models or not.   I'd love to get one of these, have DucPainter paint it in oem colors and striping and lettering, and then put my oem replacement tank on the shelf until/if I sell the bike.   I honestly don't expect the oem replacement tanks to last any longer or perform any differently than the ones they are replacing.

that sounds cool.. maybe leave one stripe unpainted to show the metal underneath..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on October 07, 2009, 11:18:21 AM
or anodize the whole thing.
Got a kid in private school, so the last thing I'll be doing is forking over 2k+ for a new tank.  :(
I hope the new ones are better- anybody heard of a replacement going bad yet?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 07, 2009, 04:37:59 PM
why would you buy an aluminum tank and paint over it? Sorry but its like getting a hot gf and covering her up while you hit that.

here was my RR Aluminum Tank polished and clear coated

(http://kuixihe.com/zenphoto/zp-core/moto/IMG_3066.JPG.php?z&p=full-image)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 07, 2009, 05:30:41 PM
Took a while to show up, but my tank is now definitely showing signs of expansion. :( :(

Just submitted my request to join the email list.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 07, 2009, 05:55:15 PM
Took a while to show up, but my tank is now definitely showing signs of expansion. :( :(

Just submitted my request to join the email list.

how many miles do you have on the bike and year?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 07, 2009, 05:57:55 PM
how many miles do you have on the bike and year?

2007 M695

21,500 miles


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wbeck257 on October 09, 2009, 03:23:05 AM
Well, mine start to swell up.

Took it to Atlanta Motorworld, and they emailed Ducati.
Got word yesterday that a new tank is on the way and should be here in 9 - 20 days.

So that turned out a lot better than I thought it would.

2006 S2R1000
13,000 miles.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on October 09, 2009, 05:42:10 AM
Just heard back from Nathan at DucPond.  My tank should be in today, only 36 days from ordering.  I should have it installed in the next couple of weeks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 09, 2009, 06:41:23 AM
Pics of my tank expansion (click for bigger images)


Latch will not close at all.  The latch should be approximately 10-15mm from the keyswitch when closed.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0021.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0021.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0023.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0023.jpg)

These are the rubber U bumpers.  They are supposed to sit directly on the frame.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0025.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0025.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0026.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0026.jpg)

Side Rippling:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0027.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0027.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0028.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0028.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0029.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0029.jpg)

Full view -- doesn't look like any problem at all from a distance.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0032.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0032.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 09, 2009, 06:49:48 AM
Can you guys post up what color tanks you are receiving?

I know someone who has  personal relationship with the dealer since hes bought 2 bikes from them, and im going to ask him to re-ask for me. I already emailed the guy about getting a red tank, and he wont respond, cant seem to get through on the phone, and i dont feel like showing up and having some random lady give me a parking ticket.

 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on October 09, 2009, 08:26:46 AM
Latest tally on complaints filed:
(for plastic tank monsters)

'05- 6
'06- 6
'07- 12
'08- 1

The only difference from my last tally on Sept 10, one month ago, was only 3 additional files for '07 guys.
Nobody else has a problem.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 09, 2009, 09:49:56 AM
Latest tally on complaints filed:
(for plastic tank monsters)

'05- 6
'06- 6
'07- 12
'08- 1

The only difference from my last tally on Sept 10, one month ago, was only 3 additional files for '07 guys.
Nobody else has a problem.



i have 82 ppl on the mailing list, it's kind of silly.   i think ppl are afraid that the NHTSA will tell on them to Ducati and they won't get their tank replaced -- that's all I can figure..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on October 09, 2009, 09:53:46 AM
I filed, enlisted ;) complained and got my tank replaced.
 People file your complaint with the NHTSA or in two years we'll be screwed again...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on October 09, 2009, 11:11:19 AM
Can you guys post up what color tanks you are receiving?

I know someone who has  personal relationship with the dealer since hes bought 2 bikes from them, and im going to ask him to re-ask for me. I already emailed the guy about getting a red tank, and he wont respond, cant seem to get through on the phone, and i dont feel like showing up and having some random lady give me a parking ticket.

 

Dark - DucPond those were backordered but could have got me a different color sooner.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 11, 2009, 07:43:40 AM
I reemailed my dealer about getting a red tank since i got no response.

My first email (which was the pics and vin #) were sent on July 16.

A response was given July 18th
Quote
"I sent in the form with your info and am waiting on hearing back from DNA regarding your issue, once I do I will inform you of what we can do"

after two emails asking for an update on August 8th...
Quote
"the tank is on order but unfortunately its not available and its coming to be august when Ducati Motor Holdings almost completely close for the month except for a skeleton crew, but let me see if I can get some sort of eta"

Another two emails on Sept 26.
Quote
"Im sorry I havent been able to get back to you I've been out for a bit, unfortunately, the tank is still not in and its been over 2 months, everytime I process an availability for the tank it comes up as not available and will give a a backorder date, when I've contacted DNA they cannot give me a eta for the tank, I will stay on top of it for you and the minute I get any news I'll get back in contact with you."

So depending on how you look at it, its been 3-4 months. Still no tank.

I think I'm the only one who is taking this long. Part of the reason why I think they are just blowing smoke up my ass. Maybe they are reading this. But even then, I kept quiet for 2 months waiting patiently. This is just getting ridiculous. :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2009, 08:58:57 AM
Did they say your new tank has been approved?  if so, I would just sit back.  Everything in those emails sounds about right and recently there have been more people getting tanks replaced. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on October 11, 2009, 11:21:30 AM
He Man,  Sounds to me like they are hosing you. My dealer knew the ETA after one week. Now I received mine in extra short time, due to some unforeseen circumstances. I would think that they would be able to give you some sort of realistic date.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 11, 2009, 03:33:17 PM
Did they say your new tank has been approved?  if so, I would just sit back.  Everything in those emails sounds about right and recently there have been more people getting tanks replaced. 

whatever is in that email is what they sent me. It sounds like they did when he said the tank is on order.

i dont get why a dealer would do this. wouldnt it be easier to just lie and say no we wont?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cdv478 on October 12, 2009, 05:24:17 PM

[/quote]i dont get why a dealer would do this. wouldnt it be easier to just lie and say no we wont?
[/quote]

That's what my dealer did. I thought he would be sympathetic since he owns an S2R, but he said he'd never heard of the problem and Ducati wouldn't warranty my tank. My bike was still in the 2 year warranty window at that time.

Afterward, I signed up on the list and gave all my info, filed an NHTSA complaint, and still am confident it will work out for the best. My tank is still growing. I had aspired to buy an '07-'08 S4RS, but I noticed the tank issue after I got the bike back from a 4 month vacation at a dealer that couldn't figure out it had a bad wiring harness. The tank problem presented itself at 11,700 miles and 23 months from delivery.

My trust in not only the dealer but DNA has been destroyed, but I was able to fix the underlying problems I'd encounter with an S4RS by buying a new KTM Super Duke R instead. All Ducati would have had to do was fix my tank and I'd have bought a leftover new S4RS. Instead, I'm impressed with how I've been treated by KTM, and the SDR is amazingly fun, so it's worked out very nicely.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 12, 2009, 05:54:20 PM
That sounds like a pretty bad example. I hope my situation isnt like yours...

in a lighter note, i filled up 3.4gallons today. Whats that say about how expanded my tank is?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on October 13, 2009, 06:50:12 AM
i dont get why a dealer would do this. wouldnt it be easier to just lie and say no we wont?


That's what my dealer did. I thought he would be sympathetic since he owns an S2R, but he said he'd never heard of the problem and Ducati wouldn't warranty my tank. My bike was still in the 2 year warranty window at that time.

Afterward, I signed up on the list and gave all my info, filed an NHTSA complaint, and still am confident it will work out for the best. My tank is still growing. I had aspired to buy an '07-'08 S4RS, but I noticed the tank issue after I got the bike back from a 4 month vacation at a dealer that couldn't figure out it had a bad wiring harness. The tank problem presented itself at 11,700 miles and 23 months from delivery.

My trust in not only the dealer but DNA has been destroyed, but I was able to fix the underlying problems I'd encounter with an S4RS by buying a new KTM Super Duke R instead. All Ducati would have had to do was fix my tank and I'd have bought a leftover new S4RS. Instead, I'm impressed with how I've been treated by KTM, and the SDR is amazingly fun, so it's worked out very nicely.

I'd go to another dealership. I went to one that I'd never been to before, and they took great care of me. I bought my bike used, and had never had any contact with this dealership before, and again, I got my tank in 10 days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 13, 2009, 11:41:28 AM
Looks like i probably wont get  a new color tank, a new tank , anything. lol

Quote
I will try to get a response from someone in DNA about your request but I don't think that they will do that, but hey it doesn't hurt to ask.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 14, 2009, 01:30:45 PM
Looks like i probably wont get  a new color tank, a new tank , anything. lol


Are there any other dealers close enough that can help you?  Your situation sounds like just dealer BS - blaming DNA is just their scapegoat.  DNA and my dealer came through with my tank (and quite a few others here) in less than a month (during the time you have been waiting). 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 14, 2009, 03:35:29 PM
There are. But if its submitted at one place, the other place would know wouldnt they?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on October 14, 2009, 03:59:35 PM
There are. But if its submitted at one place, the other place would know wouldnt they?

why would that matter? You're the customer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 14, 2009, 04:00:37 PM
why would that matter? You're the customer.

because the warranty request "was" already been submited....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 15, 2009, 06:22:09 AM
because the warranty request "was" already been submited....

Doesn't hurt to ask again.  All they can do is say no.  Worth at least a call to another shop to explain the situation and bad service and ask if they can do anything and maybe gain a new customer in the process.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 16, 2009, 08:06:31 AM
Update:   Yesterday I picked up my bike from DucPond with the replacement tank installed.  There is once again space between the tank and the handlebar switchgear and the ignition lock.

For how long, who knows????

Tm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on October 17, 2009, 01:57:11 PM
I finally get around to visiting the dealer today and here is how it goes. First off, as I pull up I"m not getting a good feeling as normally there are quite a few Ducs parked outside, but all I see is a single older model red Monster. Outside are parked all kinds of used sports cars, ranging from a Delorean to Vipers and Porsches. Inside it gets worse, where normally there are lots of new Ducs on display, as well as MV Augustas and other bikes, there is now not a single bike to be seen. Instead there are more used cars, some very nice models including a Ferrari. The counter man who has seen me drive up, steps up to the counter to assist me...

Counter man: Hi there, how can I help you.

Me: Uhh... you still service Ducati's right?

Counter man: Yeah sure, the used car guys took over the show room though. Can I help you?

Me: Yeah I'm having trouble with my gas
tank, it seems to have expanded, have you heard of anything like that before?

Counter man: Oh yeah the gas tanks are a warranty item, I'll go ahead and order you one.

Me: Uhh... OK.... Thanks


He didn't even go outside and look at the bike, just took the VIN # and address off my insurance card and asked for a contact number and said they would call me in about a week.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on October 19, 2009, 08:54:13 PM
Thanks for the pics Ducatiz...I decided to look at mine right now and it has all three conditions that you showed in your pics.
I just signed up, hopefully I can still get it rectified.  I never really noticed anything except the rubber bushings hung over the frame tubes way too far.  I figured it was normal. 

Later

p.s.  It's an '05 S2R 800, red w/ white stripe, 15k miles.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 20, 2009, 11:48:35 AM
Let us know if you get a red tank... im still waiting for mine. its been 4 months.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on October 20, 2009, 04:57:21 PM
WOW...

I don't know why I never read this thread.  I quickly scanned it and ran out to the garage.  My tank shows all the signs.  The latch is right up against the ignition/the bottom frame bumpers are 1/2" past the frame!

My bike is an 05 with about 6K miles

I'll call my dealer tomorrow and see what can be done.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on October 20, 2009, 09:29:16 PM
You've been waiting four months for a red tank?????  Have they explained why it's taking so long? 
Truth be told I'm really ready to trade it in for an FZ1.  My commute is making the Monster less fun.
I guess if Ducati puts me on the back burner then I won't be too worried since I'm looking to make a trade
fairly soon.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 21, 2009, 10:24:39 AM
i waited 3 months for a black or silver tank. Red seems to be very common, so i said ill take a red tank too. they said they would try 2 weeks ago. no word back from them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 22, 2009, 12:53:38 PM
I finally had a chance to take my bike to the dealer.

He said not to get my hopes up as I am above the mileage for the emissions warranty :( but he will submit it anyway.  I should find out in about a week.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on October 24, 2009, 03:10:05 AM
I also went to my dealer yesterday. He took a few pictures and noted my mileage. I left but went back into the showroom a few minutes later to check out the new shirts and he was already at the computer up loading my pictures.  He told ne that "most" monster tanks have been covered.   Crossing my fingers!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 24, 2009, 07:43:04 AM
I finally had a chance to take my bike to the dealer.

He said not to get my hopes up as I am above the mileage for the emissions warranty :( but he will submit it anyway.  I should find out in about a week.

I hope you will still post a complaint with the NHTSA on safety grounds.  The ignition switch housing wearing through the tank until there is a fuel leak directly above the engine should be something an agency like the NHTSA OUGHT to be interested in!

Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 24, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
I hope you will still post a complaint with the NHTSA on safety grounds.  The ignition switch housing wearing through the tank until there is a fuel leak directly above the engine should be something an agency like the NHTSA OUGHT to be interested in!

I absolutely will after I get the word back from the dealer. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 26, 2009, 12:24:49 PM
I finally had a chance to take my bike to the dealer.

He said not to get my hopes up as I am above the mileage for the emissions warranty :( but he will submit it anyway.  I should find out in about a week.

Got mine replaced at 30k - though I was told by the dealer that it was something of a gift and went through because the AZ rep is cool.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 26, 2009, 05:33:29 PM
I got word from Ducpond that my tank came in last week.  That's right at a month for an Acid Yellow tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Benjamin5150 on October 27, 2009, 07:15:46 AM
Ducpond just got mine as well.   [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 27, 2009, 09:49:22 AM
Ducpond just got mine as well.   [thumbsup]

what color and how long did you wait?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Benjamin5150 on October 28, 2009, 06:16:26 AM
It's a Dark...it's been maybe 4-6 weeks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on November 02, 2009, 07:02:18 AM
I kinda liked the wider tank, but it was an issue on the track. I need to go to the new dealer and explain the whole thing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 1d10t on November 05, 2009, 07:44:29 AM
Okay I must say, huge Props to Moto Dave and his crew at EastSide Moto Sports! I have never had such exceptional service from any dealership, car or motorcycle!   

Not only did Dave order my tank for replacement and go to bat for me, my 2006 is a year out of warranty, he used his personal vehicle to get me to and from my office. That's service! I will now only go to ESM for all services, parts and new bikes.

Dave made it so convenient to get warrantied, I didn't even have to bring my bike into the shop until the tank arrived. Way to set the high bar!

Now I have a shiny new tank and the reassurance there will not be any leaks. Oh I can latch the tank now!!! It's the simple things in life that keep me happy. 

Man, all I have to say is THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: TobyDanger on November 05, 2009, 05:22:11 PM
Hmm if it expands enough, think maybe I can get 200 miles on one tank?

Noticed a "ripple" in my left knee pocket a few weeks ago... nothing big, just that the left and right pocket weren't really the same.  Then this weekend I went to lift the tank to plug in the tender (damn cold, rainy PNW winters) and saw the right frame stay was about half way outside the frame, and the latch was almost touching the ignition.  Looks like a trip to DucSea soon.

Just signed up for the Yahoo group.

07 S2R800


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 07, 2009, 04:19:05 PM
Hmm if it expands enough, think maybe I can get 200 miles on one tank?

not 200. more like 150-160.

mine officially holds 3.4 gallons now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 07, 2009, 05:00:14 PM
not 200. more like 150-160.

mine officially holds 3.4 gallons now.

interesting, i sort of assumed the material would expand in all directions which would make the volume smaller not larger.

if the volume is increasing and the outside is as well, then the tank wall is getting thinner..

NOT GOOD!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 08, 2009, 04:52:29 PM
NOT GOOD!

Im fine with that. if my tank blows up ill just sue Ducati for a new bike because they are taking so long to get me a new tank. ( i still havent gotten one)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on November 09, 2009, 04:16:57 AM
Im fine with that. if my tank blows up ill just sue Ducati for a new bike because they are taking so long to get me a new tank. ( i still havent gotten one)

If it blows while you're on it... we'll have to sue them for you.

Someone on the sport classic board mentioned a recall by Duc for those who have problems- this isn't a recall. Anyone hear reassurances that the problem is fixed?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on November 09, 2009, 04:21:46 AM
If it blows while you're on it... we'll have to sue them for you.

Someone on the sport classic board mentioned a recall by Duc for those who have problems- this isn't a recall. Anyone hear reassurances that the problem is fixed?

I got my new tank over the weekend.  No reassurances.

I can't believe how small the new tank is.....I can see so much more frame around ignition key area.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on November 09, 2009, 08:17:03 AM
Guess I gotta pull the trigger too. Would like to be able to lock the steering again. Or see my battery.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 11, 2009, 07:14:49 AM
UPDATE

I went to the dealer on October 23rd to have pics taken.  I got an email today saying my tank is in!!!!  Less than 2.5 weeks!!!

My dealer rocks!!

Eastern Cycle in Beverly, MA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 11, 2009, 09:48:45 AM
alright this is pretty make the beast with two backsed up. I emailed the dealer 1 last time. If they dont want to cooperate, ill just contact DNA and ask them who i can go to because thats 2/4 local dealers who arent willing to change my tank out for me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on November 12, 2009, 04:56:37 AM
alright this is pretty make the beast with two backsed up. I emailed the dealer 1 last time. If they dont want to cooperate, ill just contact DNA and ask them who i can go to because thats 2/4 local dealers who arent willing to change my tank out for me.

I think you just like being a victim... want my spare tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on November 12, 2009, 05:04:31 AM
My dealer is still waiting to hear from Ducati, he says he's been bugging them. :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 12, 2009, 07:37:05 AM
My dealer is still waiting to hear from Ducati, he says he's been bugging them. :-\

thats the same thing mine said.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 12, 2009, 02:57:08 PM
I dropped my bike off today.

My tank was sitting in a box waiting for me!  There was another tank with mine waiting install for a S2R1000.... I was told.

I'm having my 12K service done also...so come spring I'll be ready to roll.

I'm not sure why others are having problems getting tanks.  What kind of relationship do you have with your dealer?  Get services done there?  I do all the easy stuff myself (oil changes, mods, and some other things) but leave the valve adjustments/belt changes for the dealer.  I also buy my oil/filter from the dealer.  ya I know I pay a little more but what $10 more?  They know me and when problems arise they get handled promptly.


Just my .02







Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on November 13, 2009, 03:13:32 AM
I had two very different experiences.  I called Speed's, which is closer to me than DucPond, and they couldn't be bothered.  Acted like they never heard of the problem the first time I called and then the second told me I had to contact Ducati first.  That didn't work as Ducati told me it was something the dealer had to do. 

I called DucPond and they immediately told me to take pictures and email them to their parts mgr.  I did that and within a day or two he called me and said I had a good case but would need to see the bike in person.  One look and 4 weeks +/- later I had a new tank.  Would have been faster except for a backorder on dark tanks.

To that point I had spent roughly equal amounts at both shops. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: red baron on November 14, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
I guess I'll chime in here now.

So today I stop at the dealer (GP in San Diego), and the service mgr is talking to me while the tech is sorting out some front suspension issues. He mentions the tank thing and we're looking at mine and I show him a few minor issues and he orders a new one for me. ;D


We'll see how long before it shows up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on November 20, 2009, 05:11:57 PM
looks like i am going to have to do this soon, my tank is now rubbing the ignition on the right side.  if only this would have happened sooner, my local dealer closed their doors three weeks ago.  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on November 21, 2009, 06:41:24 AM
looks like i am going to have to do this soon, my tank is now rubbing the ignition on the right side.  if only this would have happened sooner, my local dealer closed their doors three weeks ago.  :(

Look at it the other horrible way.

Say you went in and got them to order you a new tank.

Then they closed.

So you go to another shop, which gets their request from DNA denied, as one has already been ordered for you.



You know it could happen.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 21, 2009, 09:58:34 AM
Look at it the other horrible way.

Say you went in and got them to order you a new tank.

Then they closed.

So you go to another shop, which gets their request from DNA denied, as one has already been ordered for you.



You know it could happen.

that would be funny if it happened to someone else. lol


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on November 21, 2009, 03:20:30 PM
that would be funny if it happened to someone else. lol

We all know it's going to happen to you. Your dealer is probably closing their doors right now, with your replacement tank listed on ebay.  :-*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 22, 2009, 05:00:57 AM
Picked up my bike yesterday with my new shiney tank installed. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 22, 2009, 01:28:20 PM
10 days. wtf.

i emailed DNA. they said they will look into it. Im not holding my breath. I alreayd have a steel tank replacement i bought 2 months ago.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on November 24, 2009, 10:31:16 AM
ahhhh... i bought my monster used and its an 05 model... i have a feeling the purchase date is past 5 years now... i guess im SOL.  [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on November 24, 2009, 10:38:29 AM
ahhhh... i bought my monster used and its an 05 model... i have a feeling the purchase date is past 5 years now... i guess im SOL.  [bang]

My bike was an '05 and I just got a warranty last month.  I would still contact your dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on November 24, 2009, 10:59:37 AM
...hmmm. Im gonna head to the dealer right after work! I gotta check the paperwork to see when it was purchased anyway.. haha hope it works!!  [bow_down]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 24, 2009, 11:24:15 AM
Mine is an 05


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on November 25, 2009, 06:37:50 AM
went to the dealer yesterday, service manage looked at the tank, took some pix, and sent the request in for the new tank.

While there, i saw a tricolor monster tank that was just replaced as well...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: memonstro on November 28, 2009, 06:46:14 AM
I have a 2007 Sport Classic. My dealer just ordered my second replacement tank yesterday.(11-28-09). My first tank was replaced in April of 09. That tank was shimmed this summer. Nothing offical from Ducati about if they've solved the problem or not yet. My dealer tells me that the tanks are covered for at least 5 years through the emmisions warranty. I haven't had any problems yet getting mine replaced.
There is a group going through PAKBIKES.net that are going to have their tanks sealed using Caswell Tank Seal. I waiting to see how this turns out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 29, 2009, 03:22:24 AM
.
There is a group going through PAKBIKES.net that are going to have their tanks sealed using Caswell Tank Seal. I waiting to see how this turns out.

I was just thinking of this the other day.  Like when you repair a rusted tank with POR 15 or something like that....  I just don't know if the product sticks to the plastic/nylon interior.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on November 29, 2009, 03:32:39 AM
I was just thinking of this the other day.  Like when you repair a rusted tank with POR 15 or something like that....  I just don't know if the product sticks to the plastic/nylon interior.
I don't believe either product will in the long run.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on November 29, 2009, 01:25:24 PM
10 days. wtf.

i emailed DNA. they said they will look into it. Im not holding my breath. I alreayd have a steel tank replacement i bought 2 months ago.

emailing is a waste of time. Use the telephone and start calling regularly...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2009, 01:52:22 PM
Who has had an 05 "acid yellow" tank replaced?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on November 29, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
I have a 2007 Sport Classic. My dealer just ordered my second replacement tank yesterday.(11-28-09). My first tank was replaced in April of 09. That tank was shimmed this summer. Nothing offical from Ducati about if they've solved the problem or not yet. My dealer tells me that the tanks are covered for at least 5 years through the emmisions warranty. I haven't had any problems yet getting mine replaced.
There is a group going through PAKBIKES.net that are going to have their tanks sealed using Caswell Tank Seal. I waiting to see how this turns out.

So after 5 years, everybody is screwed?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 03:22:36 AM
So after 5 years, everybody is screwed?

Not necessarily. 

The emissions warranty only goes to 5 years or 18,xxx miles, whichever happens first anyhow, and plenty of folks with much more than 18k miles are getting replacements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 06:42:54 AM
Not necessarily. 

The emissions warranty only goes to 5 years or 18,xxx miles, whichever happens first anyhow, and plenty of folks with much more than 18k miles are getting replacements.

I think the real problem comes 7,8,9,10 years from now when people have bikes with warped, expanded, ill-fitting, abraded, rubbing, possible leaking fuel tanks that were replaced under warranty (or maybe once under warranty, once under good-will, and once - or more - at their own expense), and Ducati - corporately speaking - has "moved on."

What then?   Our bikes are unrideable, unsellable paperweights?   Or those who want to keep them and soldier on, buy hand-beaten alloy replacement tanks?  This is not an academic question.  I  have a 10-year-old Ducate 750SS that I ride regularly now, and I can actually entertain the notion that in seven years, I'll still want to be riding my 2007 S4Rs.... fuel tank permitting!

The biggest question remains in my mind ---- why isn't Ducati FIXING this problem rather than using the short-term bandaid of replacing defective tanks with identical, soon-to-be defective tanks?

Maybe we need to join with other Ducati enthusiast forums to drive a national awareness campaign wrt the NHTSA complaint process that has been so well-documented here.  It seems to me at this point that the only way Ducati is going to alter their response to this problem is if the regulatory agencies force them to.

Tim, Herndon, VA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 06:47:18 AM
I think the real problem comes 7,8,9,10 years from now when people have bikes with warped, expanded, ill-fitting, abraded, rubbing, possible leaking fuel tanks that were replaced under warranty (or maybe once under warranty, once under good-will, and once - or more - at their own expense), and Ducati - corporately speaking - has "moved on."

What then?   Our bikes are unrideable, unsellable paperweights?   Or those who want to keep them and soldier on, buy hand-beaten alloy replacement tanks?  This is not an academic question.  I  have a 10-year-old Ducate 750SS that I ride regularly now, and I can actually entertain the notion that in seven years, I'll still want to be riding my 2007 S4Rs.... fuel tank permitting!

The biggest question remains in my mind ---- why isn't Ducati FIXING this problem rather than using the short-term bandaid of replacing defective tanks with identical, soon-to-be defective tanks?

Maybe we need to join with other Ducati enthusiast forums to drive a national awareness campaign wrt the NHTSA complaint process that has been so well-documented here.  It seems to me at this point that the only way Ducati is going to alter their response to this problem is if the regulatory agencies force them to.

Tim, Herndon, VA

I have no reason to think they are not trying to fix the tanks properly.

All the issues you raise are real problems.  Moreover, the tanks are identical to the ones used on bikes in Europe, and the EU has approved ethanol to be used in gasoline so it will be creeping into various markets soon.  Down the road, maybe 5-7 years from now, all EU gasoline will have 5-10% ethanol, just like in the USA -- then another 1-2 years, tanks will start expanding.

Ducati is aware of the problem, and I am SURE they have had some chemists look into what caused it -- and if the problem really is ethanol, then they can see the writing on the wall if they do not fix the tanks -- EVERY single owner of an 05-current model Monster, Sport Classic and Multistrada will become a Ducati-hater, and then there will be HUGE publicity.

This isn't the same as the crack-frame problem on the 95-97 900ss or the weak stud problem, because it will eventually affect ~every single~ bike made that is used in an ethanol-fuel market.

I am sure Ducati is trying to fix it, that being said, I wish they would issue a statement on the problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 07:47:27 AM
I have no reason to think they are not trying to fix the tanks properly.

All the issues you raise are real problems.  Moreover, the tanks are identical to the ones used on bikes in Europe, and the EU has approved ethanol to be used in gasoline so it will be creeping into various markets soon.  Down the road, maybe 5-7 years from now, all EU gasoline will have 5-10% ethanol, just like in the USA -- then another 1-2 years, tanks will start expanding.

Ducati is aware of the problem, and I am SURE they have had some chemists look into what caused it -- and if the problem really is ethanol, then they can see the writing on the wall if they do not fix the tanks -- EVERY single owner of an 05-current model Monster, Sport Classic and Multistrada will become a Ducati-hater, and then there will be HUGE publicity.

This isn't the same as the crack-frame problem on the 95-97 900ss or the weak stud problem, because it will eventually affect ~every single~ bike made that is used in an ethanol-fuel market.

I am sure Ducati is trying to fix it, that being said, I wish they would issue a statement on the problem.

I guess that to me (a Ducati enthusiast for 29 years and a Ducati owner for 23 years) the simple lack of such a statement or letter to owners (or even dealers) addressing the issue and stating a clear, concise, consistent corporate policy is evidence enough to convince me that they are not trying to fix the tank issue properly.  Whatever else they may be doing besides replacing the defective tanks with identical new examples of the same tanks - in some instances, for some owners - is not being conveyed or publicized in any forum of which I am aware.

My son rides a 1999 Triumph Speed Triple 955i that is equipped with the factory original plastic fuel tank from my old 1997 Triumph T509 Speed Triple; a 12-year-old plastic fuel tank that shows NONE of the issues we see with the Ducati fuel tanks in question, despite it having hundreds of tanks of ethanol-enhanced fuel through it.  Surely there is nothing too exotic or expensive preventing Ducati from simply switching to the type of plastic that Triumph has been using without problems for all these years?

I deeply appreciate your efforts on this.   I think we have the best organized group of Ducati owners out there for pursuing this, solely based on YOUR efforts to date.

I’m suggesting that perhaps we need to contact/reach out/include/incorporate/add other Ducati enthusiasts who may not be aware of this effort – beyond Monster owners, to include Sport Classic and GT owners as well.   Perhaps a website, perhaps via your Yahoo group; I don’t know.

If there’s something alse I can do to help you out - besides registering with the Yahoo Group, filing my NHTSA complaint, and petitioning for (and receiving) a replacement fuel tank, please let me know.

Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 07:57:47 AM
As far as I understand, Ducati doesn't make the tank, Ascerbis does.  I don't know who makes Triumph's tanks, but I am sure it isn't easy to rotomold another 10s of thousands of tanks for warranty replacement.

Somone at Ducati has better have a handle on this with Ascerbis.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 09:51:30 AM
As far as I understand, Ducati doesn't make the tank, Ascerbis does.  I don't know who makes Triumph's tanks, but I am sure it isn't easy to rotomold another 10s of thousands of tanks for warranty replacement.

Somone at Ducati has better have a handle on this with Ascerbis.

When I said I thought that there was "nothing too exotic or expensive" (not "easy") about switching to a KNOWN, GOOD, supplier of fuel tanks, I certainly didn't mean to say or insinuate that it would be easy (or cheap, for that matter) to replace all the bad tanks Ducati has put on the market over the last five years.   

I meant that switching over to a new supplier, one with a proven record of producing plastic production fuel tanks that do NOT lose their shape, warp, "grow," or dimple and orange-peel in the first two, five, or even twelve years of ownership, should, imho, be neither too exotic nor too expensive for Ducati to implement.

Of course, I also thought that because Ducati could and has made trouble-free steel tanks by the tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) since the 1960's, that perhaps they could or should investigate switching to that material for their current models and even consider it for replacement of bad plastic tanks.  And I vividly recall how impossible I was told something like that would be.

I would have guessed that with dozens of other motorcycle manufacturers selling ten times as many motorcycles (and more) than Ducati, and with Ducati themselves constantly coming out with reliable, well-crafted, nicely working complexities like dohc 4-V desmodromic cylinder heads and multi-adjustable traction control, etc, that either producing or contracting for the production of fuel tanks that don't have all the problems we're seeing wouldn't be so (apparently) impossible for them to accomplish.

It really does cast a shadow over my appreciation of the company, after all these years.  Just thinkin...

I've owned a 1967 250 Scrambler, 1967 250 Mach 1, 1973 750GT, 1975 860GT, 1977 900SS, 1985 [Cagiva] Alazzurra 650, 1992 750SS, 1992 851 Superbike, 1994 916, 2003 620 Sport, and a 2003 999 in the past, and currently own a 2000 750SS,  2003 800SS,  2005 800SS, and a 2006 1000SS in addition to my 2007 S4Rs, and the last is the only one I've had fuel tank problems with, and the only one that has had two sets of throttle bodies replaced under warranty because of TPS sensors going bad.

Maybe I should just sell the S4Rs now while it has a nice, new, replacement tank on it, and start looking in earnest for a 998R and a 750F1 Montjuich/SantaMonica/Laguna Seca to complete my Ducati dreams!

Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 10:15:21 AM

Of course, I also thought that because Ducati could and has made trouble-free steel tanks by the tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) since the 1960's, that perhaps they could or should investigate switching to that material for their current models and even consider it for replacement of bad plastic tanks.  And I vividly recall how impossible I was told something like that would be.

unfortunately, ducati has had problems with their steel tanks too.. search for "hinge leak"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 10:28:27 AM
unfortunately, ducati has had problems with their steel tanks too.. search for "hinge leak"

Yeah, I'm aware of those.   That doesn't mean that they haven't produced hundreds of thousands of trouble-free steel tanks, though.   It doesn't necessarily mean that if they switched their plastic tanks to steel, that those steel tanks would have hinge (or any other) problems... if they've learned from the experience of the past.

The problem is, they are - at least as far the warranty replacement Monster tanks and both the current production and the warranty replacement Sport Classic tanks are concerned - still repeating the errors of the past.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on November 30, 2009, 11:32:39 AM
The problem is, they are - at least as far the warranty replacement Monster tanks and both the current production and the warranty replacement Sport Classic tanks are concerned - still repeating the errors of the past.

It's not an overnight solution. This problem showed up when? 1-2 years down the road over a type of gas they may not even have had tested?


Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.


In the meantime, you have current motorcycle owners who have tanks that are not fitting the moto, canot be latched unlatched, hitting the bars on full lock, etc-do you have a better suggestion on what to do? All they can *currently* do is replace the tank to keep the current owner moderately happy, while it gets sorted.


I can see them not willing to make a public announcement until after some sort of fix has been devised.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ICON on November 30, 2009, 05:12:55 PM
I'm starting to notice some funny business on  my S4RS now. :'(  My S2R1000 seems to be holding up for now.

Oh Santa Claus, if you are real...this is your time to shine big guy. I guess I can always count on the Great Pumpkin. Where do i sign?  [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 05:55:18 PM
It's not an overnight solution. This problem showed up when? 1-2 years down the road over a type of gas they may not even have had tested?

I'd like to point out that at no point have I said, conjectured, insinuated, or accused Ducati of dealing with something that can be solved overnight.   Problems crop up in the automotive and motorcycle industry over periods of years.  This is, in itself, not unusual nor is it unprecedented.  There is a long historical precedent for how to handle such a situation, both from a public relations standpoint and from a standpoint of researching, planning, and implementing a practical, technical, marketplace solution.

With the response that we have to date from Ducati corporate (NOT individual dealers) do you have the sense that the company has and is doing everything they can to address the public relations damage from the problem?   Do you understand their approach to dealing with the technical side of the problem?    Has their communication been of such a nature that customers are, in general, reassured?   Do you get a sense that customers are concerned but that the company has done all in their power to allay those concerns?   Perhaps you do, and can share the reasons why.   I don't have that sense of the company's position in this situation.


Quote
Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.

First, if I were a company executive trying to both solve the situation and maintain communication with my customer base, I don't think that finding a *new* formula for material would be my primary path of action.  Perhaps a secondary, long-term, background search for such a formulation would be in order.

Secondly, since the problems with tanks have been shown to take longer than six months to present themselves, I would agree that a 6 month test would be unthinkable.  Obviously, a minumum test would now have to be considered to be five years, since that is the federally mandated emissions warranty in Ducati's largest single export market.

That's why I don't think that finding a *new* formulation is a viable first path option towards solving this problem.
 
Quote

In the meantime, you have current motorcycle owners who have tanks that are not fitting the moto, canot be latched unlatched, hitting the bars on full lock, etc-do you have a better suggestion on what to do? All they can *currently* do is replace the tank to keep the current owner moderately happy, while it gets sorted.


I would suggest that that is all that they *are* currently doing, and it is not remotely close to all that they *could* currently be doing.  And they are doing that in a hit-or-miss fashion amid much confusion and chaos at the individual owner and individual dealer level.  The posts in this thread alone (heck, the simple existence of this thread) amply demonstrate that fact.

As far as having a "better" suggestion for what the company could be doing, the idea of "better" is open to personal opinion.  I would suggest, whether "better" or not, that the company could:

1. Send a letter to each registered owner of an affected bike or potentially affected bike, acknowledging that there is a problem with the fuel tank construction of their motorcycle, and that if they have not yet had their bike inspected, they should do so immediately.   Counsel those owners whose tanks have already been replaced or are pending replacement that the company will stand behind the replacement tank even if the bike's warranty expires prior to the replacement tank exhibiting any symptoms of the problems.  Send a similar letter to all francished dealers advising that it be prominantly displayed in the dealership for those owners who are missed in the private mailing.

2.   Issue a press release that gives the public a general overall idea of what the company is doing to correct the problem, and if the problem is unlikely to exhibit itself in other applications, tell the public why they believe that to be the case.

3. Keep owners, dealers, and the public informed as to their progress in resolving the problem and their timetable for completing all corrective actions.

Now, of course, there are all sorts of potential legal and liability issues with the above suggestions, that I'm sure a lawyer could point out.  My point isn't to say "This is what Ducati SHOULD or MUST do."   My point is that I can think of things they COULD be doing that might prove significantly more reassuring to their customers than what they ARE doing.   I'm not going to debate each "suggestion" and its relative legal and liability and customer relations advantages and disadvantages.  I'm too tired of it, and it won't make one whit of difference, anyway.

Quote
I can see them not willing to make a public announcement until after some sort of fix has been devised.

I can too, and I can see that doing a great deal of damage to their customer relations in the meantime.

Let me simply close with an observation.  I bought Ducatis throughout the 80's when it appeared the company itself could go out of business on any given month.   I bought Ducatis throughout the 90's when the company changed hands several times and quality issues (regulator rectifiers frying, flaking rocker arms, etc) plagued the company.  And I continued to buy Ducatis through the past decade, and I have NEVER questioned my enthusiasm or dedication to the marque.   My 2007 S4Rs in stock trim was the most fun stock motorcycle I have ever owned.  In its currently modified form, it is, quite simply, the most fun motorcycle I have ever ridden in my life, let alone personally owned.  Seriously.  It is b.a.d.a.s.s., toxic, fun.   I own FOUR other Ducatis right now.   

Yet, if I were to be looking for a replacement for the bike today (I am not), I would be more likely to buy an MV Agusta Brutale 1078R than the Streetfighter.   If I wanted an even lighter, more flickable bike than the S4Rs (I don't), I would look at the Triumph Street Triple R before I would consider a Ducati Monster 696.   There is NOTHING about the S4Rs that would cause that state of affairs, INCLUDING the problems with the fuel tank.  It is Ducati's response to date with regard to the fuel tank issue that makes me feel that way.

Perhaps I am the only one who is affected in this way.

<Shrug.>   Doesn't matter.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on December 01, 2009, 01:33:32 PM
Bugged my dealer again, still no definitive word from Ducati either way.

He thinks the chances are slim, as they have been having trouble getting things covered that are within warranty. :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: patorojo on December 01, 2009, 02:04:09 PM
Have been watching this thread and my 2007 S2R1K Red for a while and finally started noticing the signs, most visible one of the frame bumbers starting to push outward.  Took it to my dealer today and he said it most definitely has the expansion problem and has sent the warranty request in.  They have handled 5 or 6 of these successfully so far.  In chatting about the problem, he noted that based on conversations he has had with Ducati, it sounded like Acerbis (who makes the tanks for Ducati) and Ducati are in a pissing match as to who is responsible.  He expects Ducati to issue a recall after somebody steps up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on December 02, 2009, 02:09:03 PM
Quote
Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.

the properties of most plastics are known, quite well.  no long term testing would be required.

my thought would be that a plastic that remains stable in the presence of gasoline, and alcohol might cost a little more than whatever is currently being used. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on December 02, 2009, 04:35:59 PM
the properties of most plastics are known, quite well.  no long term testing would be required.


How do you think we got to where we are?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on December 02, 2009, 05:40:19 PM
How do you think we got to where we are?

try to save a few bucks cost in the end


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on December 02, 2009, 06:03:23 PM
try to save a few bucks cost in the end

So....you're saying they knew they'd have an issue, and just chose a lesser material? I maintain it's a surprise to them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 02, 2009, 07:35:29 PM
Arent plastic tanks used in several areas of automotive application? I think the issue here maybe, the plastic is safe for use on gasoline, not E10 gasoline.

Does it seem like this issue happens in europe too?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2009, 03:31:38 AM
Arent plastic tanks used in several areas of automotive application? I think the issue here maybe, the plastic is safe for use on gasoline, not E10 gasoline.

Does it seem like this issue happens in europe too?

I have personally spoken with mechanics in Italy, Germany and the UK -- none of them have heard about this at all. 

I've posted on several boards in UK and in Italy as well (or had someone do it for me, my Italian is limited to asking where the bathroom and a good hooker are) and no one has heard of it at all.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on December 03, 2009, 05:19:00 AM
i realize that it would be a lot harder to detect, but i am curious if there are any shape changing issues with the new model tanks (specifically the unseen inner tank)

anyone have any input?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on December 04, 2009, 01:15:10 PM
Well it's been 6 months since I got my replacement tank for my S4Rs and lo and behold today I noticed small ripple on both sides of the tank.  Right around the knee area *sigh*


At this point I am going to wait and see how this progresses and wait until I hear about a permanent fix.  I would strongly urge those of you who have gotten your replacement to still fill our the complaint and send Ducatiz your information.

I'll post up pictures later.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 04, 2009, 03:35:16 PM

Arai. Can you also post something showing you've had your tank replaced already?  Some people do not believe the replacement tanks are also deforming.

Where do you get your gas?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on December 04, 2009, 04:06:34 PM
Only proof I have is an email from my local dealer. I get my gas all along the local mountains of LA county  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on December 04, 2009, 04:49:15 PM
finally filled out my NHTSA report today (ok, flog me)
anyway...i had to select the s4r, as my bike was not represented (s2r1k)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2009, 03:31:21 AM
Did you note in the report the bike wasn't listed?  Its the same tank though


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on December 05, 2009, 06:02:05 AM
Did you note in the report the bike wasn't listed?  Its the same tank though


i did


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on December 05, 2009, 06:51:47 AM
I put my first tank in my replacement yesterday.  The new tank is unbelievably white inside compared to the old tank.  Will keep my eye on any changes........


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2009, 08:37:41 AM
What colour was the old one?  Mine looks white inside


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on December 05, 2009, 08:43:40 AM
What colour was the old one?  Mine looks white inside


Like a dark butter yellow color.  The new one is a really bright white.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 05, 2009, 04:10:36 PM
mine is smookers teeth yellow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2009, 04:20:41 PM
mine is smookers teeth yellow.

was it always that way?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 05, 2009, 08:18:15 PM
was it always that way?

nope. lol


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Xerxes1769 on December 09, 2009, 11:09:13 AM
Joined the group today...took my bike to the local Duc shop last Saturday and was told that they will have an answer for me this Friday...hopefully DNA will come thru and replace the tank...the shop wasn't too convinced since the warranty on my bike expired 9 months ago (it's an '07)...here's to being hopeful....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on December 09, 2009, 04:25:54 PM
My bike is an 05.... Well out warranty and I got a new tank without any issues


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2009, 04:30:27 PM
My bike is an 05.... Well out warranty and I got a new tank without any issues

Your bike has two warranties.  RTFM.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on December 09, 2009, 06:37:59 PM
My bike is an 05.... Well out warranty and I got a new tank without any issues

What's your mileage?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 09, 2009, 08:33:42 PM
What's your mileage?

I dont think the warranty has a mileage equivalent.


If E10 is to blame then, is it how much fresh e10 is going into the tank? or is it how long the tank is exposed to e10? I hear E10 holds water too, but does it breakdown by itself?

My tank has morphed so much over the years, i wish there was a way to document it.

At first it was really hard to shut the clasp but it sat on my frame. Then it wouldnt sit on my frame and was relaly hard to take on and off. Then it completely did not sit on the frame but was easier to clasp. Now the clasp is useless and it doenst sit on the frame. but i hold an extra 1/2 gallon.


BTW: DNA said they contacted the dealer to speak with me. 2 weeks, the dealer hasnt done anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on December 09, 2009, 09:26:39 PM
I dont think the warranty has a mileage equivalent.

I was told the emissions warranty has a 18,600 mile limit, which is why I'm having trouble.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 09, 2009, 09:38:01 PM
I was told the emissions warranty has a 18,600 mile limit, which is why I'm having trouble.

i was told it was just 5 years unlimited miles.... but thats from the shop that wont give me my tank.  [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wbeck257 on December 14, 2009, 05:54:34 AM
It took three months, but my tank is in and on my bike.
Now its time to get rid of this damn thing..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on December 14, 2009, 06:35:29 AM
It took three months, but my tank is in and on my bike.
Now its time to get rid of this damn thing..

I would share your sentiment, except unfortunately my S4Rs is currently not only the most fun motorcycle I've ever owned (of about 45-50 bikes over 31 years) but it is the most fun motorcycle I've ever ridden at all, and if I'm down and crabby and just out of sorts, all I have to do is go out for about 2-3 miles on this thing and I can't wipe the silly grin off my face to save my life, and people think I'm on some kind of drugs!   So, I'm hoping for an eventual, permanent, fix.   [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 14, 2009, 06:38:56 AM
The guys on the Multistrada site report a dealer who uses the Caswell coating for the new tanks and has good success so far.

I might talk to the guys at Ducpond about doing this for mine. 

I think you have to do it before it's had gas in it though...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wbeck257 on December 14, 2009, 06:48:35 AM
 So, I'm hoping for an eventual, permanent, fix.   [thumbsup]

Thats the thing -- the same tank that was put on last week is the same tank they put on the first time.
It's crap then, and it's crap now.

So in two years when this thing swells up like a bee-sting again what are we going to do? We are lucky as it is to fall in the emissions warrenty. I highly doubt we'll be getting another $1800 freebie for the next one when we are out of the 5 years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on December 14, 2009, 12:22:43 PM
I just read about this product  www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://)  on LT Snyders site, desmo times.. According to his blog this stuff will work on plastic tanks although who knows for how long. Another who knows is, will this stuff even work at all if you've allready exposed your tank to E10. 

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 14, 2009, 02:03:58 PM
i just got another email from DNA. they were kind enough to email me following up on this matter.

They emailed me 2 weeks ago telling me they spoke with the dealer and the dealer will call me. (they havent called or left a voice mail or emailed)
They emailed me again today asking me if it got replaced.

how bad is the tank now? after sitting with a full tank of E10? The clasp is completely useless other then not allowing the tank to flip over.... it will shift left or right What does that mean? My bike is useless cause im not going to ride with my knee hooked in and feel my tank shift causing me to shit my pants thinking im falling off the bike.

However it is winter, i wont be doing any of that, so Im just hoping DNA will do the right thing and just authorize the work somewhere else. Ill be glad to go.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 14, 2009, 03:39:09 PM
i just got another email from DNA. they were kind enough to email me following up on this matter.

They emailed me 2 weeks ago telling me they spoke with the dealer and the dealer will call me. (they havent called or left a voice mail or emailed)
They emailed me again today asking me if it got replaced.

how bad is the tank now? after sitting with a full tank of E10? The clasp is completely useless other then not allowing the tank to flip over.... it will shift left or right What does that mean? My bike is useless cause im not going to ride with my knee hooked in and feel my tank shift causing me to shit my pants thinking im falling off the bike.

However it is winter, i wont be doing any of that, so Im just hoping DNA will do the right thing and just authorize the work somewhere else. Ill be glad to go.



jeebus

sorry to hear that

i used a bungee cord on mine when the latch got bad.  i got a bungee with plastic hooks and hooked it onto the trellis.  reaaal rat bike looking... but it kept the tank in place. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on December 14, 2009, 05:57:44 PM
Thats the thing -- the same tank that was put on last week is the same tank they put on the first time.
It's crap then, and it's crap now.

So in two years when this thing swells up like a bee-sting again what are we going to do? We are lucky as it is to fall in the emissions warrenty. I highly doubt we'll be getting another $1800 freebie for the next one when we are out of the 5 years.

Yes, if you read back through this interminable thread, that has been exactly my concern as well.    But I'll figure it out one way or another; whether it's having a custom alloy tank beaten for me in England, or buying an older steel Monster tank and modifying it to work on my S4Rs, or taking a ETI FuelCel carbon-kevlar tank for one of the older Monsters and modifying it, if I have to, I'll figure it out and keep this bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 17, 2009, 11:45:23 AM
Steel tank is the easiest way to go. I have one with a small dent in it that i plan on fixing adn throwing it on my bike ,however, undoubtly, my bike will probably get knocked over again, so im wondering how it would look if i punches it in myself and made it flow with the tank.. lol


So i got an email back from Ducati of North America

"Dear Kui,

I am not getting anywhere with the dealership on your fuel tank. Any chance that you can go to Rockwell Cycles in Ft. Montgomery NY?

Regards,"

Seems like they cant even get the dealership to replace my tank. Thats fine, i heard that place is shutting down for restructuring the management.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on December 17, 2009, 02:32:01 PM
Steel tank is the easiest way to go. I have one with a small dent in it that i plan on fixing adn throwing it on my bike ,however, undoubtly, my bike will probably get knocked over again, so im wondering how it would look if i punches it in myself and made it flow with the tank.. lol


So i got an email back from Ducati of North America

"Dear Kui,

I am not getting anywhere with the dealership on your fuel tank. Any chance that you can go to Rockwell Cycles in Ft. Montgomery NY?

Regards,"

Seems like they cant even get the dealership to replace my tank. Thats fine, i heard that place is shutting down for restructuring the management.

wait, so DNA will replace it, but the dealer won't do the work?  that's really nice. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 17, 2009, 03:40:12 PM
Quote
Kui,

Please schedule an appointment. The Regional Representative who authorizes the claims is aware of your situation. When scheduling, you will need to let them know that you can’t leave the bike. Unless you can find a way to truck it there.

Regards,

Nah, apparently DNA getting in touch with someone at the dealership, is just as bad as me trying to get in touch them. THey just dont pick up the phone or respond to emails.

Eitherway....atleast i can do it.

Now comes the fun part.

If my bike gets totaled, and i dont want to buy it back, I am willing to swap the new tank i get with anyone here who has a spare tank that is bad, for free. just pay shipping both ways and youll get a brand new tank that you can coat or do whatever you want.

I will be trying to get a red tank. or black.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 17, 2009, 05:08:17 PM
Nah, apparently DNA getting in touch with someone at the dealership, is just as bad as me trying to get in touch them. THey just dont pick up the phone or respond to emails.

Eitherway....atleast i can do it.

Now comes the fun part.

If my bike gets totaled, and i dont want to buy it back, I am willing to swap the new tank i get with anyone here who has a spare tank that is bad, for free. just pay shipping both ways and youll get a brand new tank that you can coat or do whatever you want.

I will be trying to get a red tank. or black.

I'll take it.. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on December 20, 2009, 12:11:25 PM
Joined...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 2 Wheel Wanderer on December 22, 2009, 10:59:21 PM
I joined about 3 weeks ago. Ducatiz thanks for your work on this. Since joining I have gone to my dealership and they put in a claim to DNA for me. I just got the news that I was denied a new tank due to the mileage on my bike. Apparently the emissions warranty is 5 years or 18K miles. My odometer is at 23K.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on December 24, 2009, 05:31:47 AM
Wow! So that's how they are gonna play it?
So now you gotta buy a new tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 2 Wheel Wanderer on December 24, 2009, 10:06:15 AM
Wow! So that's how they are gonna play it?
So now you gotta buy a new tank?

Nope, I'm gonna call DNA directly to see if I can get it handled.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on December 25, 2009, 11:49:52 AM
So where's the list of those you had no problems and those still waiting? I cant help but think that a lot of this is not DNA but the actual dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on December 25, 2009, 11:57:37 AM
So where's the list of those you had no problems and those still waiting? I cant help but think that a lot of this is not DNA but the actual dealer.

this is my feeling also.  I got my tank in less than 3 weeks. From what I read about "He Man"....  it seems to be his dealer and not DNA   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on January 07, 2010, 07:43:59 PM
Spoke to my local dealer the other day, he took some pics and sent them off to DNA.  Didn't hear back right away so I called the guy at the dealer and asked for the cust. svc. reps # at DNA and called him.  I've been given the green light on a new tank under the Emission Control warranty.   [thumbsup]  So now I wait for who knows how long until they build my tank, but I'm a happy camper that they took care of the issue w/ no hassle whatsoever.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on January 08, 2010, 07:27:59 AM
Anyone else have the feeling that DNA or the parent is just going to replace the tank with the same, until no longer obligated by US federal law to do so?
Anyone hear news by Duc or Acerbis actually admitting that there is a problem or if the replacement tanks are any different?
My tank now is showing a crease in the side. Like it's been dented.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 08, 2010, 08:00:33 AM
Anyone else have the feeling that DNA or the parent is just going to replace the tank with the same, until no longer obligated by US federal law to do so?
Anyone hear news by Duc or Acerbis actually admitting that there is a problem or if the replacement tanks are any different?
My tank now is showing a crease in the side. Like it's been dented.

ugh, that's exactly what they did with the 900ss frame cracking problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on January 08, 2010, 10:10:08 PM
  The guy at DNA told me that the composition of the new tank has been altered to deal w/ the problem.   [roll]
We'll see.  Since the dealer that's taking care of my tank also sells Triumphs, it might just be time for that matte black Speed Triple.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Ddan on January 10, 2010, 01:44:41 AM
ugh, that's exactly what they did with the 900ss frame cracking problem.
Actually, up until a couple of years ago, they were still replacing those frames with new ones.  They may still be doing it, I don't know for sure.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 10, 2010, 03:48:58 AM
Actually, up until a couple of years ago, they were still replacing those frames with new ones.  They may still be doing it, I don't know for sure.

You don't understand my analogy.

Also, Ducati was no longer replacing SS frames as of 2005.  I have direct knowledge.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Ddan on January 10, 2010, 03:37:13 PM
You don't understand my analogy.

Also, Ducati was no longer replacing SS frames as of 2005.  I have direct knowledge.
OK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on January 19, 2010, 02:14:33 PM
Called my dealership and they said just drop it off and we will start the process.  Now I just need to find the right balance of weather and a person to give me a ride home.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on January 23, 2010, 03:20:18 PM
Dropped the bike off today, Saturday.  The girl at the dealer said she could get the tank by Thursday and done by the weekend. :]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on January 25, 2010, 01:14:55 PM
Finally in town long enough to try a different dealership this week.  Just talked to them on the phone and I already got a better vibe than the last place, fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on January 26, 2010, 05:31:29 AM
I joined about 3 weeks ago. Ducatiz thanks for your work on this. Since joining I have gone to my dealership and they put in a claim to DNA for me. I just got the news that I was denied a new tank due to the mileage on my bike. Apparently the emissions warranty is 5 years or 18K miles. My odometer is at 23K.

Haven't looked through this thread in a while, but if you don't have something resolved yet I have this to offer - DNA replaced my tank even with me being over the mileage.  My dealer mentioned the mileage limitation (I think I was right about at 30k) but said he'd try it anyway and didn't really forsee a problem.  And there was no problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 26, 2010, 06:56:07 AM
Haven't looked through this thread in a while, but if you don't have something resolved yet I have this to offer - DNA replaced my tank even with me being over the mileage.  My dealer mentioned the mileage limitation (I think I was right about at 30k) but said he'd try it anyway and didn't really forsee a problem.  And there was no problem.

Ducati has been replacing tanks regardless of mileage. They are trying to put them under warranty but where a tank is out of warranty, they do it as a "good will" swap.

I think this is great, I just fear that down the road some currently unaffected bikes will have the original tank.  Without an official recall, there is no way to know what bikes got a replacement tank.

This is the same problem with mid 90s 900SS which had a bad head weld design and would crack at the yoke.  Ducati replaced those frames even 10 years later, but since there was no official recall, if you are looking at a 94/95/96 900ss, you have NO WAY to know if the frame was replaced or not.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on January 28, 2010, 01:56:01 PM
Finally in town long enough to try a different dealership this week.  Just talked to them on the phone and I already got a better vibe than the last place, fingers crossed.

I just got word from the second dealership that Ducati will cover my tank, it's now on order. [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Pretty amazing...the first dealership specializes in Ducati, MV Augusta, Triumph, and other European brands.  I went there because that's where I bought my Duc originally.  When I had called them up, they didn't seem to have any familiarity with the expansion problem.  When I brought it in, the service guy acknowledged that my tank was expanding but told me that it was very doubtful that it would be covered as my mileage was too high and they were having trouble getting "legitimate" warranty claims covered as it was.  I called them to follow up several times over the course of a few weeks and never got a straight answer.

Before contacting Ducati NA, I felt obliged to try the other relatively close dealership, even though I had been warned against ever going there for service as they are primarily a Honda dealership that also carries some Ducatis.

I sent in an online appointment request on Monday describing the problem and asking for an appointment to come in and have my tank evaluated.  I got a call back 2 minutes later, the guy there was clearly very familiar with the tank problem and its cause, and told me to come by anytime.  I went by yesterday, he was not concerned about my mileage, he's never been turned down yet for a tank replacement  :), and mine was the worst example that he's seen so far. :P  He also clearly knew his way around a Monster.

He told me it would take up to a week to get an answer back, but he called me today and told me it would be replaced. ;D

Oh, and he made an interesting comment - apparently the tanks shrink back down again after they've been empty for a while.  He said that they have shipped a number of the bad tanks to Italy and they seem to have shrunk by the time they arrive.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: BK_856er on January 28, 2010, 07:00:06 PM
I just got word from the second dealership that Ducati will cover my tank, it's now on order. [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Congrats!  That same dealer replaced my tank both times.  And my cylinder heads + extras.  I was always happy with their work and professionalism.  They seem to have a very good relationship with DNA, which can make a big difference.  No reason a shop can't handle more than one brand well!  Thumbs up for HPD.

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 29, 2010, 04:01:18 AM
Oh, and he made an interesting comment - apparently the tanks shrink back down again after they've been empty for a while.  He said that they have shipped a number of the bad tanks to Italy and they seem to have shrunk by the time they arrive.

I got the same story as well from DNA.  This is an interesting piece of info which means the permeability of the inner tank skin is absorbing and then leaching off the gas or ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on January 29, 2010, 08:13:25 PM
I got the same story as well from DNA.  This is an interesting piece of info which means the permeability of the inner tank skin is absorbing and then leaching off the gas or ethanol.


Thats werid. Wouldnt the gas permate to the underlining paint and begin to dissolve it?

also, i found it really odd, but before my bike sat for 2 months straight. i filled the tank up, and when i first took it out, the tank was 1/2 empty....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 30, 2010, 02:23:48 AM

Thats werid. Wouldnt the gas permate to the underlining paint and begin to dissolve it?


Not necessarily.  There is likely a limit of how far it penetrates.  Also, some people have reported surface spots being soft/mushy as if there is liquid underneath the paint layer.  also, i would assume the paint to be resistant to gas (or we have yet another problem!)  to deal with spills.

Quote
also, i found it really odd, but before my bike sat for 2 months straight. i filled the tank up, and when i first took it out, the tank was 1/2 empty....

that is weird and if it happened to me, i would drain the gas assuming all the volatiles have come off and only water and ethanol is left! 

seriously, was your gas siphoned?  it could have expanded such that the volume inside increased as well, so the tank was 1/2 full.  imagine liquid in a balloon, full.  then blow some air inside long with the liquid.  same thing.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on February 02, 2010, 10:17:33 PM
Just an update on mine.  They said shipping of the tank is taking longer then expected.  So still waiting for mine to be fixed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on February 03, 2010, 05:53:40 PM
I finally got around to filing my NHTSA complaint, thanks for the reminder.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on February 04, 2010, 12:52:01 AM
I finally got around to filing my NHTSA complaint, thanks for the reminder.

I just did mine also.... thanks for the kick in the pants email.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 04, 2010, 02:45:56 AM
Toyota was pushed to do a recall because of only 100 complaints to NHTSA -- for 2 million cars!

If you have been waiting to file with NHTSA, do it now.  Ducati sells around 35,000-40,000 bikes WORLDWIDE.  Toyota sells >1 million worldwide, and ONLY 100 COMPLAINTS pushed them to do a recall!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on February 04, 2010, 02:56:20 AM
Took a tally of NHSTA complaints on Fuel Systems- tank expansions (m.y. 2005-2008)2 days ago:

For Monsters: 37

Sport Classic: 74

Multi Strata: 3

Looks like we got over 100 if we can get it together w/ the SC guys. Still no official word from Ducati that there is a problem. I'm reluctant to take my bike in for a replacement, as we may need to haul it into court in DC as evidence.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 04, 2010, 03:00:15 AM
Looks like we got over 100 if we can get it together w/ the SC guys. Still no official word from Ducati that there is a problem. I'm reluctant to take my bike in for a replacement, as we may need to haul it into court in DC as evidence.

No bike needed for evidence.   There are plenty of people aware of the problem.

Let Ducati replace it, there is no reason to hold out. I believe they want to make them all right. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on February 12, 2010, 09:07:59 AM
I have a 2005 Multistrada with this problem. I thought the reason for the increasingly tight tank-to-frame fit and the poor rear bodywork alignment was a bent frame - until I sent it to GMD Computrack in Atlanta to have the frame measured/aligned, and they spotted the real problem. I called my dealer and was told they had another MTS waiting for a back-ordered tank which is being handled as a warranty replacement, but they took my VIN and said that they would try to get my out of warranty machine on the list for a "Customer Good Will" replacement.

I'm signing up on the Yahoo group list just in case Ducati runs out of "Good Will". I was seriously committed to selling both my Ducs for a new MTS 1200 this April; now I'm on the fence.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 12, 2010, 09:13:24 AM
I'm signing up on the Yahoo group list just in case Ducati runs out of "Good Will". I was seriously committed to selling both my Ducs for a new MTS 1200 this April; now I'm on the fence.

Hi Pinocchio

The only instances of tank replacement refusals I have heard about are due to the dealer.  If you read this thread, some folks have called Ducati in Cali and been told to go to another dealer.

So far, Ducati is replacing tanks without exception.

My only concern with the replacement tanks is that several people now have reported having to get a second (and one has gotten a third) replacement tank. 

-tiz


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ShiftSix on February 12, 2010, 09:44:34 AM
Yeah I have a 08 s2r1000 and had them replace one gas tank already because there was ripples in the side of the tank and that was within the first 5 months of owning it.   just noticed the other day tho when filling up the inside plastic of the gas tank liner is warped like crazy...  ???  so in not too long from now ill probably be looking at another gas tank...    sucks...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on February 13, 2010, 05:16:22 AM
My concern as well. If the problem happens again, hopefully Ducati will have the problem fixed or it will be time for me to buy a new bike. The thought of selling my S2R is something that is inconceivable.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on February 13, 2010, 06:45:21 AM
IMO (and forgive me if this has been said before), Ducati does not see this as a problem outside of markets where ethanol-blended fuels cause the problem.

Ducati Bologna is probably observing Toyota's recent misery with great apprehension at this moment. Submitting to a recall of this size could force a small company like Ducati into receivership, not just from the cost of the fix, but from damage to the brand image in the North American market. The last time the Italian government ran Ducati, the brand barely survived.

If and when we get our new tanks from Ducati NA, we would be doing the company and ourselves a favor if we coated them with epoxy tank sealants and moved on with our lives.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on February 13, 2010, 08:10:04 AM
If and when we get our new tanks from Ducati NA, we would be doing the company and ourselves a favor if we coated them with epoxy tank sealants and moved on with our lives.


AFAIK, there are not a lot of epoxy tank sealants designed to stick to nylon. Also, why the make the beast with two backs should I? They sold a screwed up tank-if the fix is that easy *they* can do it.

There's currently a 695 sitting in the garage that can't be ridden because the steering damper hits the tank. One can't lift up the tank, for fear of never being able to latch it again, turn the bars full over, or lock the steering. This is not acceptable for a three year old bike.

It should not be a hard concept for a manufacturer to realize that it might be a good idea to test their brandy-new-never-before-used materials with the chemicals those materials will come in contact with and check for adverse effects.

It'd be cool if they actually would issue some sort of formal notice that they will be supporting this issue, other than that, I have no interest in replacing the tank, even with a coating, and waiting to see if I have this problem again.

Should they actually replace the tank, the bike will be sold immediately after.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on February 13, 2010, 08:28:18 AM
 The guy at DNA told me that the composition of the new tank has been altered to deal w/ the problem.   [roll]
We'll see.  Since the dealer that's taking care of my tank also sells Triumphs, it might just be time for that matte black Speed Triple.

Later


yep, I'm seriously leaning that way too, was going to replace my 2003 Monster w/ a newer and bigger Ducati but the plastic tank issue (and Ducati's response to it) has killed that idea.  FWIW test rode a 2009 Speed Triple this week and liked it a LOT...AND the 2008+ models have steel tanks as Triumph evidently had some less serious plastic tank problems on the earlier bikes.  Interestingly, from what I've read Acerbis made the tanks for both, am curious what the differences are since it looks like problems are far less common on Triumphs...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on February 13, 2010, 12:04:03 PM

AFAIK, there are not a lot of epoxy tank sealants designed to stick to nylon. Also, why the make the beast with two backs should I? They sold a screwed up tank-if the fix is that easy *they* can do it.

There's currently a 695 sitting in the garage that can't be ridden because the steering damper hits the tank. One can't lift up the tank, for fear of never being able to latch it again, turn the bars full over, or lock the steering. This is not acceptable for a three year old bike.

It should not be a hard concept for a manufacturer to realize that it might be a good idea to test their brandy-new-never-before-used materials with the chemicals those materials will come in contact with and check for adverse effects.

It'd be cool if they actually would issue some sort of formal notice that they will be supporting this issue, other than that, I have no interest in replacing the tank, even with a coating, and waiting to see if I have this problem again.

Should they actually replace the tank, the bike will be sold immediately after.

With respect, I don't feel inclined to point the finger at Ducati. The bikes with plastic tanks have been around for quite awhile and were no doubt tested with European gasoline blends, or US pre-ethanol blends, and passed the US emissions standards, or they couldn't have been imported. Ethanol blending was mandated in the US in 2006, and was only increased to the current level of 10% in 2008. So now we are just starting to see one more of the side-effects of misguided energy policy. The other far-reaching economic effects of ethanol blending are troubling enough to my conscience for me to consider my tank swelling problem to be trivial.

yep, I'm seriously leaning that way too, was going to replace my 2003 Monster w/ a newer and bigger Ducati but the plastic tank issue (and Ducati's response to it) has killed that idea.  FWIW test rode a 2009 Speed Triple this week and liked it a LOT...AND the 2008+ models have steel tanks as Triumph evidently had some less serious plastic tank problems on the earlier bikes.
And I would never buy a Speed Triple, I already have an S4RS. When I sell it, I will buy another Duc. It may not be logical, but there it is. [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 13, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
With respect, I don't feel inclined to point the finger at Ducati. The bikes with plastic tanks have been around for quite awhile and were no doubt tested with European gasoline blends, or US pre-ethanol blends, and passed the US emissions standards, or they couldn't have been imported. Ethanol blending was mandated in the US in 2006, and was only increased to the current level of 10% in 2008.

Ethanol blend (E10) has been mandated in 11 states (which follow CARB) since the mid 80s, when MTBE was banned.  Many states required "oxygenated" gasoline during winter months and use ethanol for that purpose, and the feds have pushed for the use of Ethanol E10 since 1982 with tax benefits:

"In 1982, the Surface Transportation Assistance Act raised the gasoline excise tax from 4 cents/gallon to 9 cents/gallon and increased the exemption for 10-percent ethanol blended gas to 5 cents/gallon. In 1984, the Tax Reform Act increased the exemption again, to 6 cents/gallon. The Alternative Motor Fuels Act of 1988 created research, development and demonstration programs for both vehicles and fuels and provided fuel economy credits for automakers. In 1990, through the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act, Congress extended the ethanol tax incentive from 1992 to 2000 but decreased the incentive from 6 cents/gallon to 5.4 cents/gallon."

So unless they developed the nylon/plastic in the early '70s, I highly doubt that's the reason (**If the real problem is ethanol, which I am not 100% convinced of**).  Ducati NA is based in California which has had E10 for ages, and MTBE before that, which is far more pernicious to HDPE than ethanol is.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: smooth on February 14, 2010, 04:04:47 PM
I've just emailed you my updated info and pics regarding my tank. In short, my dealer denied there was a problem.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 15, 2010, 06:35:17 AM
I've just emailed you my updated info and pics regarding my tank. In short, my dealer denied there was a problem.



Please give a friendly call to Ducati NA in California.  408-253-0499.  Keep your cool and just tell them what happened.  Ask to speak to someone to help you with a tank expansion problem.

A handful of people have had dealer problems.  In short, take it to another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on February 15, 2010, 02:35:13 PM
yep, I'm seriously leaning that way too, was going to replace my 2003 Monster w/ a newer and bigger Ducati but the plastic tank issue (and Ducati's response to it) has killed that idea.  FWIW test rode a 2009 Speed Triple this week and liked it a LOT...AND the 2008+ models have steel tanks as Triumph evidently had some less serious plastic tank problems on the earlier bikes.  Interestingly, from what I've read Acerbis made the tanks for both, am curious what the differences are since it looks like problems are far less common on Triumphs...

I have a 1999 Triumph Speed Triple 955i in my garage right now that has the 1997 T509 bodywork on it from my original Speed Triple.  Nylon tank.  13+ years old, plenty of ethanol-spiked gas, looks and fits fine.   The 955i bodywork that was sold with the '97 Speed Triple was *also* perfect at the time it was sold.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on February 15, 2010, 07:32:59 PM
I have a 1999 Triumph Speed Triple 955i in my garage right now that has the 1997 T509 bodywork on it from my original Speed Triple.  Nylon tank.  13+ years old, plenty of ethanol-spiked gas, looks and fits fine.   The 955i bodywork that was sold with the '97 Speed Triple was *also* perfect at the time it was sold.

That jibes with what I've read, there have been some isolated problems w/ Triumph plastic tanks, but nothing like Ducati...am curious why the difference (materials? design??) as both were supposedly made by Acerbis...also would be interesting to know why Triumph switched to steel two years ago. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vesparex on February 25, 2010, 05:02:22 PM
Evening everyone,

My 2007 S4Rs is in for her 22,500 service and I too have the deformed fuel tank. First noticed in early Dec while lifting the tank to check the air filter. Tank was butted up against my ignition switch. Then, once opened, could not latch. Dealer has not seen this issue themselves. I have left a voice message for a rep at DNA, ext 4404. Used to be Mike Norman but I do not believe he is there anymore.

Then I google and found this thread. I joined the yahoo group and took the survey and filled out the requested info for the yahoo moderator.

I also searched NHSTA. Found something about water pump impeller.

So thats it for now.

Duane

2007 S4Rs


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 26, 2010, 02:28:52 AM
Then I google and found this thread. I joined the yahoo group and took the survey and filled out the requested info for the yahoo moderator.

Glad you found this website, there's a lot more on here than just the tank problem thread!

If you haven't read the whole thread, so far, Ducati is being good about replacing every tank that comes in, regardless of the mileage limitations on the warranties.  They need to do an official recall, though.  If you have a problem with your dealer, call Ducati (you already have it seems) and/or take it to another place if you can. 

They need to a recall though.  This is going to affect the future value of the bikes if they don't do a recall.  It's not like they can sweep this under the rug.   Too many people are talking about it this time.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vesparex on February 27, 2010, 09:31:48 AM
Got ahold of TJ at DNA Fri afternoon. He acknowledged that this is a known issue and asked that I instruct my dealer to call their regional Duc rep. So I called and they are. So fingers crossed.  My bike is high in milage. Over 24,000. But has never been down. Not modified except running sans cans. Only udder and snazzy turned out tips (made from the OE pipe so stainless matches!). No stickers or after market paint on the tank. So hopefully this goes smoothly and I get a replacement tank (that won't warp in 3-4 years too).

Duane


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 05:23:11 AM
My local dealer told me that Ducati is supposed to come out with a better tank that will not have the same issues in March. From what they said, the current batch that they've been sending are basically the same tank, so the issue would simply reappear eventually. I put in the claim to have the papaer work done before the 5 year deadline, but I probably won't see a tank until April or May. I don't know if this was already discussed, I'm too lazy to read through the whole thread, but keep this in mind when you go to the dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 01, 2010, 05:56:06 AM
My local dealer told me that Ducati is supposed to come out with a better tank that will not have the same issues in March.

what is his source?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 06:00:47 AM
I can call him today, but I think they're closed on Mondays. I'll check and let you know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 06:03:16 AM
Closed today. I'll try to remember for tomorrow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on March 01, 2010, 11:55:15 AM
My local dealer told me that Ducati is supposed to come out with a better tank that will not have the same issues in March. From what they said, the current batch that they've been sending are basically the same tank, so the issue would simply reappear eventually. I put in the claim to have the papaer work done before the 5 year deadline, but I probably won't see a tank until April or May. I don't know if this was already discussed, I'm too lazy to read through the whole thread, but keep this in mind when you go to the dealer.

This would be great if it turns out to be true


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 12:30:06 PM
That's exactly why the dealer asked me to wait until March. Why replace the thing if it's just going to happen again?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 01, 2010, 05:28:40 PM
oh snap!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 01, 2010, 08:18:56 PM
That's exactly why the dealer asked me to wait until March. Why replace the thing if it's just going to happen again?
man I dont know if your dealer is telling you all the story. I doubt its going to be any better or worse then the tanks on there. What about the ones they already replaced? Dunno, but I doubt Duc is going to put much effort into a bike thats discontinued for a tank that may warp in 4 years. BTW, I finally submitted my NHTSA complaint
 [popcorn]                                  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 02, 2010, 04:42:16 PM
hey, been a while....
took the 696 in for some issues and discovered that its tank has expanded,
and in talking to the mechanic realized that my 07 s4rs has, as well, the tank is butted completely up against the ignition switch
and unable to be unlatched...
dearlership/ parts stated that they had had some others as well and had ordered warranty replacement tanks in december
before christmas, with no deliveries as of yet...
have to take the s4rs up there for a eyes on to ensure that this is in fact my problem, but it certainly seems to be the case...
and again,
my 2006 triumph speed triple, just returned from its 12,000 mile service, has had zero issues with tank deformation...
dunno....:(
so, BOTH my monsters have this same tank deformation issue....
:(
but the dealership seemed certain that they would both be replaced under warranty....
Euro Cycles Tampa Bay  www.bmwrides.com (http://)
good guys there, zero complaints or issues, ever.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 04, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
rode the RS up to eurocycles today (nice ride...!!! [evil])
yup, its tank is deformed as well....
both the 696 and the s4rs have warranty replacement tanks on order,
no questions asked...

as an aside, the service writer (jeff) told me that ducati has to reimburse the dealership parts department
for the RETAIL cost of every replacement tank,
to the tune of something like $1800-2400 USD....
call it $2000 per tank.
damn....!

he also told me that the 696 tank, already in motion, would probably have a delivery date of april at the earliest....
....just  some more data for everyone to chew on......



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 04, 2010, 06:41:11 PM
Woa, the 696 has tank problems? I thought that tank was concealed by side panels. How did you come to realize it had problems? Since its covered, and one wouldnt normally notice blemishes with that style, was it just not fitting right anymore?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 05, 2010, 03:37:04 PM
when i took it in to the shop it was noticed
that there were fitment issues at the "gap" between the rear of the tank and the seat....
like the tank had swelled up TIGHT against the seat....
apparently this is a known issue as well since they immediately filed a warranty claim
and the new tank is already in the pipeline somewhere...
although its a "skin", the internal actual fuel bladder/ tank had swelled up against the skins enough
to push them waaaay back against the seat....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 05, 2010, 04:30:13 PM
wow.. this is the first 696 i've heard with the problem

i wonder if any 1100s will show it...  ugh..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 05, 2010, 08:21:26 PM
Yeah, this isnt really good news to hear.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: WetDuc on March 09, 2010, 07:16:59 PM
If the new monsters are having tank problems as well, DNA is going to HAVE to do something, right?!  Some unlucky person is going to have a tank start leaking while riding then explode in flames if they don't, and given the shitstorm Toyota is going through over the gas pedal issues, I can't think Ducati is going to want to be put into the negative spotlight as well.  I hope this crap finds some kind of resolution soon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 10, 2010, 06:24:27 PM
just rode QSL tonight with matthew (sport 100 w termis)
and matt (s2r orange)
euro cycles was in attendance with their truck and assorted bikes, half the staff...

when we met at my house, i asked them if they had noticed their tanks expanding, they didnt know about it...
sure enough, matthew's sport 1000 has expanded all the way up against the ignition lock as well...
he states he noticed a YEAR ago that his bars were hitting the tank,
he went and adjusted his steering stops out until they no longer hit...
apparently didnt swell much since then, but there is an apparent point where the ignition cylinder has rubbed through the tank stripe...

jeff, service writer, euro cycles , was there tonight, discussed it with him out front,
he didnt even need to walk around back to look at matthews bike,
told him to call with the V.I.N and etc and hed get it taken care of...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Mojo S2R on March 11, 2010, 06:39:32 AM
Subscribed.  Thanks  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on March 11, 2010, 03:44:47 PM
We've got about the same number of NHTSA complaints filed about this obvious safety hazard as have been filed against Toyota for 2009 Camry Sudden Unintended Acceleration problems.   There are about 11ty billion times as many Camrys as there are Ducati Monsters and Sport Classics.

Where are OUR headlines and congressional hearings?????    [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 12, 2010, 03:44:14 AM
Write/call NHTSA. 

NHTSA Headquarters
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE
West Building
Washington, DC 20590

Toll-Free: 1-888-327-4236


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on March 12, 2010, 06:38:48 PM
I hope what duccarlos said about the March tanks is right.  I left my bike at the dealership on January 23rd and all they keep saying is we are still waiting for the tank.  If new tanks are coming in March that makes me feel better.  They said my claim got approved but they are just waiting for a tank.  If my bike wasn't an hour away I would go pick it up while waiting but just so much hassle.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 13, 2010, 10:50:44 AM
They had told me March, but knowing the eyetalian, it will take another month or 2. I did not leave the bike at the dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: monsterblur on March 14, 2010, 03:37:34 AM
just a thought but has anyone installed a heat shield material under the tank?
i know this is not a solution but it may help with future problems.
i'm also having problems.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 14, 2010, 06:15:23 AM
just a thought but has anyone installed a heat shield material under the tank?
i know this is not a solution but it may help with future problems.
i'm also having problems.

the problem isn't related to heat.   if it were, there would be similar problems in Australia, Japan, Italy, UK, etc.. No one in any of those countries has reported an issue.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 15, 2010, 05:00:21 AM
I spoke to the service guy that got the info from the regional service rep. I don't think they want to make it too public since the service guy got weirded out when I mentioned that I had posted it on a board. Of course the dealers don't want to deal with the hazzle of warranty work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 15, 2010, 05:02:30 AM
I spoke to the service guy that got the info from the regional service rep. I don't think they want to make it too public since the service guy got weirded out when I mentioned that I had posted it on a board. Of course the dealers don't want to deal with the hazzle of warranty work.
Why would a dealer not want to do the work?

They get paid at retail.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 15, 2010, 05:07:34 AM
I think it takes the factory a long time to pay up, from what I understood from a conversation I had with someone that refuses to do warranty work anymore.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 15, 2010, 05:10:30 AM
I think it takes the factory a long time to pay up, from what I understood from a conversation I had with someone that refuses to do warranty work anymore.
My understanding is it gets credited to your parts account or vehicle account immediately.

The kicker is that Ducati drops the retail prices of the parts to reduce the burden.

A dealer can't, according to most franchise agreements, refuse to do warranty work. I call BS. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 15, 2010, 05:12:49 AM
He's no longer a dealer. Service and performance only. Not very high on Ducati's list, but it might be BS since the anamosity is shared.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on March 15, 2010, 07:38:16 AM
I had one dealer that didn't want to deal with it at all, and another that is more than happy to take care of it.

I just called mine up btw, tank still back-ordered with an ETA (I think of leaving the factory) on April 13.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on March 16, 2010, 07:05:37 PM
Went and picked up the bike today.  My dealer said the same thing somegirl, tank back ordered till April 13th and they did find a fix.

I will be taking my bike back once the tank comes in.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on March 16, 2010, 07:13:10 PM
So what's the scoop with this fix? I had my tank replaced once, and the new one is already moving closer to the ignition switch  [puke]  >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 17, 2010, 02:37:25 AM
I am always interested when dealers report a fix, but the manufacturer has not. 

Just take those reports with a grain of salt. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 17, 2010, 03:11:07 AM
Chalk up another data point for a 2008 model.  I joined the Yahoo group and submitted my complaint on the NHTSA site.  

I wish I had read this posting a month ago.  I just bought a beautiful black 2008 S2R1000 I found with only 76 miles on consignment at a local dealer.  Everything on the bike seemed perfect until I read this post.  After work last night, I went out to the garage to inspect my tank and sure enough, she's swollen like a SOB.  The front of the tank is rubbing the ignition housing and the right side frame pad is pushed out 1/4."  

This is what I told the NHTSA:

The plastic fuel tank on my 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000 (selected Monster 696 as vehicle since S2R1000 was not an option) is swelling to the point it is rubbing against the ignition switch housing and no longer sits on the frame for proper support.  This is a serious issue because of the fire risk if the tank were to wear all the way through and allow gasoline to spill onto my ignition wiring and hot engine.  Obviously, a fuel leak occurring while riding the motorcycle could result in a crash, injury or death, and property damage.  I also cannot lift the fuel tank as designed by Ducati to service the motorcycle.  

I understand this is a problem affecting several Ducati models from 2005 to present.  My motorcycle was originally purchased in September 2008, currently has less than 700 miles on it, has not been modified , and, other than this serious defect, is in brand new condition.

I think I will hold off making a warranty claim until I know the replacement tanks are revised to prevent a reoccurrence.  Are there other weaknesses I should look for on the bike?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 17, 2010, 03:54:36 AM

I think I will hold off making a warranty claim until I know the replacement tanks are revised to prevent a reoccurrence.  Are there other weaknesses I should look for on the bike?

-Jeff

Jeff you should go ahead and get your bike to a dealer.  I have never heard of such a low-mileage bike having a swelling problem.  I assume it is due to the bike sitting with gas in the tank.

This board has plenty of info on your bike, I don't think there are a huge number of problems.  I know the S2R1K has a surging issue related to the exhaust sensor and there are several options for fixes, but poke around in the tech section and you'll find what you need.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 17, 2010, 04:10:43 AM
I am always interested when dealers report a fix, but the manufacturer has not. 

Just take those reports with a grain of salt. 

You mean the dealer should take the info from the regional rep with a grain of salt. At the very least there will be records that you replaced your tank. This means that if it happens again, you should be able to get it replaced until they actually solve the issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 17, 2010, 10:17:41 AM
FYI

Ducati has issued a tech bulletin which addresses the problem in SC bikes, but no mention of the problem in Monsters or MTS.  I do not know what differences there are in the tanks' material or design, but the bulletin only addresses how to deal with it on SCs.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 17, 2010, 10:35:42 AM
ducatiz,

Please post the verbiage from the bulletin for the SCs if you have access to it.

Thanks,
Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on March 18, 2010, 02:09:39 AM
Spoke with my dealer's Svc Mgr last nite at a bike night and he didn't even bat an eye. Just said to bring it in and he'll start the paperwork. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 18, 2010, 03:18:59 AM
I gave my (new to me) S2R1000 a closer inspection last night and noticed a relief of pressure when opening my fuel tank cap.  That struck me as odd, so I traced the breather line and tried blowing into it.  It was blocked.  

I wrestled with the tank latch, lifted the tank, and found the line was routed so it was pinched between the bottom of the tank and the electrical block.  Once the tank was lifted and the line free, I could blow through the line.  I rerouted the line, so it remained free and open.  You may consider checking yours.

I know this probably is not the root cause of my tank swelling, but having a pinched breather sure cannot help the situation.  I imagine the fuel pump will not have to work as hard now, which should free up at least 20-30 HP, right?  

Now, if the tank would shrink back down to size.

-Jeff  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 18, 2010, 04:25:51 AM
Now, if the tank would shrink back down to size.

-Jeff 

drain the gas, open the filler and let it sit for about 1-2 weeks.  they shrink back to size when dry.



Quote
It was blocked. 

I wrestled with the tank latch, lifted the tank, and found the line was routed so it was pinched between the bottom of the tank and the electrical block.  Once the tank was lifted and the line free, I could blow through the line.  I rerouted the line, so it remained free and open.  You may consider checking yours.

actually, you may be onto something -- the pressure combined with ethanol/gas permeation could be a factor.  moreover, the venting design on the US models is unique to US (and maybe Canada) models due to CARB requirements.

it's still a plastic (flexible) tank.  enough internal pressure pushing out and you will get deformation.  add a penetrating solvent to the mix and the interior becomes even softer/more flexible and pressure can act on that to deform it.

it would explain the type of expansion that's been seen, but i don't think it would happen if it was pressure only -- that plastic should not deform so easily and is rated for pressure (but maybe only external pressure...hmm)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 18, 2010, 05:02:43 AM
drain the gas, open the filler and let it sit for about 1-2 weeks.  they shrink back to size when dry.

I suppose this is good until the next time you splash gas into the tank.

actually, you may be onto something -- the pressure combined with ethanol/gas permeation could be a factor.  moreover, the venting design on the US models is unique to US (and maybe Canada) models due to CARB requirements.

it's still a plastic (flexible) tank.  enough internal pressure pushing out and you will get deformation.  add a penetrating solvent to the mix and the interior becomes even softer/more flexible and pressure can act on that to deform it.

it would explain the type of expansion that's been seen, but i don't think it would happen if it was pressure only -- that plastic should not deform so easily and is rated for pressure (but maybe only external pressure...hmm)

I considered the pinched breather line being a root cause, but doubted the Sport Classics have the same pinch point.  Maybe the do?

I took photos of my findings on my bike, but apparently cannot post them here directly from my hard drive.  I'd love to share them.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 18, 2010, 05:50:25 AM
If you send them to me I can host them.  Photobucket is also an option.  Pm me


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 19, 2010, 02:49:20 AM
jgrm1's bike pics  - thumbnails, click for large picture

last one shows the pinched vent line.

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTank031710I.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTank031710I.jpg)(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTank031710IV.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTank031710IV.jpg)

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTankVentLineII.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTankVentLineII.jpg)(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTankVentLineIII.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTankVentLineIII.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTankVentLineIV.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTankVentLineIV.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 19, 2010, 02:54:49 AM
jgrm1's bike pics  - thumbnails, click for large picture

last one shows the pinched vent line.

<snip>
That looks like the cap area drain, not the vent.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on March 19, 2010, 06:47:47 AM
I've run 2 seperate drain lines from the tank since removing the charcoal can(5/2006), mainly to avoid this kink problem. My tank is as bad as anybody's- doubt any correlation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 19, 2010, 08:34:28 AM
That looks like the cap area drain, not the vent.

Yep, you are right.  I should have paid more attention to that bright orange sticker under the tank.  The drain line should not affect pressure inside the tank.  I wonder why my tank does build pressure though.  A good place to start is pulling off that emissions canister and associated plumbing. 

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 19, 2010, 04:16:35 PM
Yep, you are right.  I should have paid more attention to that bright orange sticker under the tank.  The drain line should not affect pressure inside the tank.  I wonder why my tank does build pressure though.  A good place to start is pulling off that emissions canister and associated plumbing. 

-Jeff
I'd sooner think a cap problem, or the little rubber nub under the cap is blocking the hole in the cap.

If your emissions can is removed remove that black rubber piece too. It has no purpose.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on March 20, 2010, 05:25:45 AM
I took my 2007 S2R1000 to Battley Cycles in MD this week.  Service guy said no problem, he will start the paperwork.
While looking around I saw a 1098 with an aluminum tank! 
Made a couple of jokes with the salesperson about that tank not expanding.

Would be great to get an aluminum replacement for the monster.
not holding my breath though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 21, 2010, 08:16:50 AM
My new tank was approved. Lets see how long it takes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: accrocker on March 22, 2010, 02:34:01 PM
My tank was approved six months ago....still waiting for it to arrive. I cannot believe how slow the shipping process is. Are they hand carving the nylon tanks now??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: muskrat on March 22, 2010, 05:49:37 PM
that sucks.  I got mine in two weeks.  check with another dealer just in case yours dropped the ball or call DNA.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2010, 02:01:00 AM
My tank was approved six months ago....still waiting for it to arrive. I cannot believe how slow the shipping process is. Are they hand carving the nylon tanks now??

what MY and color?

my 05 "Acid Yellow" took longer -- only year they made that color and fairly small number in the first place (<5000 made)

6 months isn't too bad.  just stay in touch with your dealer every month and ask them to double check the ETA.  ducati ships them by boat in a large shipment, and i imagine they aren't quick to make.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: krista on March 23, 2010, 01:38:25 PM
This is a serious issue because of the fire risk if the tank were to wear all the way through and allow gasoline to spill onto my ignition wiring and hot engine.  Obviously, a fuel leak occurring while riding the motorcycle could result in a crash, injury or death, and property damage.  I also cannot lift the fuel tank as designed by Ducati to service the motorcycle.

I think the fuel tank will break the ignition switch off the frame before it "rubs through" and leaks fuel. The tanks we manufacture are crosslinked polyethylene, aka PEX, not nylon (which is far more dense). The PEX tanks we have are incredibly durable and very very strong. I would imagine nylon to be equally or more strong than what we are accustomed to.

Further, PEX seems somewhat fire-retardant. We are on the wind up to do some more testing as part of some involvement I have with another industry.

My tank was approved six months ago....still waiting for it to arrive. I cannot believe how slow the shipping process is. Are they hand carving the nylon tanks now??

Nylon is difficult to manufacture, likely with many wasted parts. The nylon itself is about $400 per tank to purchase the raw material. Then they get painted and packaged for individual shipment, which means a minimum of 1.5 times the volume the tank occupies is now wasted on packaging. Now to ship only 100 tanks is more volume than a car. They can hire a private jet for a few $10,000 or they can put those and many more tanks in a container and drop it on a ship for a grand.

We have all become spoiled by how manufactured goods materialize out of thin air available at our slightest whim, but one cannot grow nylon tanks from thin air and have those teleported to your doorstep tomorrow (or next week or next month).

Something that really bothers me is how indignant some people are acting. Really? If putting Ducati out of business is that important to you, keep it up. Realistically, there isn't a safety problem; it's a cosmetic issue. Sure, this is a PR nightmare but imho, Ducati is doing far more for us Monster (and Sport Classic) owners than they could be.

Oh yeah, the original red tank on my 2005 S2R800 has a bulge or two and I just don't care. Nor can I be arsed to whinge to NHSTA or my dealer about it.

/rant


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 23, 2010, 04:16:26 PM
I think the fuel tank will break the ignition switch off the frame before it "rubs through" and leaks fuel.

Well, if that's all, we are all just being silly.  You guys whose tanks are worn at least through the paint need to quit your whining, go to AutoZone, and find the closest matching touch up paint. 

Something that really bothers me is how indignant some people are acting. Really? If putting Ducati out of business is that important to you, keep it up. Realistically, there isn't a safety problem; it's a cosmetic issue.

...and a functional issue when the tank swells to the point where one can no longer operate the latch to raise their tank for service.  We should all disregard a major flaw and get off Ducati's back.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 23, 2010, 04:33:06 PM
i dont know who said it was going to rub through and leak thats the most ridiculous thing ive heard. Its been several years since my tank started expanding (which goes back to 08 when i first bought it) and i havent gotten my tank replaced, i have crashed it severla times though.... I Went through the motions and couldnt get it replaced, then DNA siad to go to another dealer blah blah blah, and really i could care less for several reasons.

1) its not going to break anytime soon.
2) The swelling has given me 3/4 gallon of extra gas per fill up (wheres kopfjager to say im bull shitting cause he seems to want to do that all the time)
3) Plastic tanks are can crash several times without denting (and i find the bike or myself going latteral quite a few times to know this)

my MAIN concern is that the tank will expand so much on the bottom that the fuel pump no longer creates a good seal and just seeps gasoline onto my motor...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on March 23, 2010, 05:36:36 PM
Look-I want to sell the bike. I won't sell it and lie about the tank issue. Most people don't want to buy a bike with what they'd consider a major flaw. So currently, it's essentially costing me money.


It's not okay, and it needs to be fixed.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on March 23, 2010, 06:18:51 PM
It also limits the already-limited steering range.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on March 23, 2010, 11:20:30 PM
It also limits the already-limited steering range.

Exactly!!!!!  That, more than anything else is what bothers me about this.  I had to adjust my steering stops several times (before I received my replacement) b/c the tank was expanding and the controls would hit the sides.  I DON'T consider that merely a cosmetic issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: krista on March 23, 2010, 11:26:58 PM
my MAIN concern is that the tank will expand so much on the bottom that the fuel pump no longer creates a good seal and just seeps gasoline onto my motor...

THIS, I absolutely agree with. And should that time come, there are a few options besides throwing away that nylon tank. The first would be to use a viton o-ring. Viton is the material that is supposed to be used for fuel systems. However viton is 2 to 4 times as costly as rubber and buna, so the cheaper materials are used instead. The next step is something that works in some industries but a solution I'm not certain is something I would sell to customers: a thick flat gasket.

Yes, once fuel is dripping, now I'll agree to there being a problem.

Well, if that's all, we are all just being silly.  You guys whose tanks are worn at least through the paint need to quit your whining, go to AutoZone, and find the closest matching touch up paint. 

...and a functional issue when the tank swells to the point where one can no longer operate the latch to raise their tank for service.  We should all disregard a major flaw and get off Ducati's back.

-Jeff

Really? That's all you've got? Then quit. It's the easiest thing to do. Just pay someone to do it for you. People who are self reliant work to find a solution. I *have* removed a tank from a Monster S2R that wouldn't open because it was smashed up against the latch and key switch. But since it's impossible, I'll stay quiet rather than tell a lie. [roll]
(yes, the above paragraph is filled with, overflowing, and dripping with sarcasm)

There isn't a solution for this problem. So it is up to reasonable people to find a middle ground that is fair to everyone involved. Being ugly about the situation and putting down Ducati and their employees for trying to deliver you an exciting motorcycle doesn't help anything. And no, I'm not suggesting for you to completely not care, I just said I don't care. Gas stays in bike. Bike runs. My smile widens. World's problems minimized if even for a few moments.

And this isn't a major design flaw. Something about the situation is tricking the plastics industry. Maybe it is an additive in the fuel. Maybe it is ethanol. It doesn't matter. The solution will be from the plastics industry and won't be ready soon. And it won't be cheap enough to make motorcycle gas tanks out of anytime soon. The reason the 696/1100 series of tanks are expanding is that whatever is making nylon deform is also affecting cross linked polyethylene (PEX), which is not supposed to change shape AT ALL. I have observed deformation with PEX up to 2%.

Good times,
Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: krista on March 23, 2010, 11:30:16 PM
Look-I want to sell the bike. I won't sell it and lie about the tank issue. Most people don't want to buy a bike with what they'd consider a major flaw. So currently, it's essentially costing me money.

It's not okay, and it needs to be fixed.

One workable solution is to retrofit a metal fuel tank from an EFI monster onto your bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 24, 2010, 02:18:01 AM
Yes, once fuel is dripping, now I'll agree to there being a problem.

this is already happened on several Multi's and at least one Monster (an S2R).  the problem is not the gasket, the tank expanded such that the hole was bigger than the pump mount.  i haven't got photos up yet, but on one Multi, when the base was removed the screw holes were oblong.

none of the bikes were in use when the fuel leak was discovered.  i imagine the expansion issue is slow enough so that a normal pre-ride inspection would pick it up, however, one cannot be certain -- if you have 2-3 drops in the wrong place at the wrong time... well..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 24, 2010, 04:04:56 AM
Really? That's all you've got? Then quit. It's the easiest thing to do. Just pay someone to do it for you. People who are self reliant work to find a solution.

Chris,

I appreciate your sarcasm.  It is ironic because if you knew me, you would know that I have been wrenching on bikes for over 20 years - mostly BMWs and old Triumphs.  You cannot own and enjoy old Brit bikes without being crafty and self-reliant.  Well, to your point, I suppose you can depending on the thickness of your wallet, but working on them is part of the experience.  Be careful about stereotyping.  

I recently bought my S2R1000 to ride - not to have to determine work arounds.  Before you say it, no, I did not want a Honda.  Yeah, I realize that as my tank swells to the point the latch does not work that I can unbolt the rear of the tank to remove it, but I do not think I am asking too much for features of the bike to work as intended at this stage of its life.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 24, 2010, 06:19:29 AM
Mr I does have a point about resale.

It is a flaw in the bike that someone would look negatively at and it KILLs the resale value.

The tank has swelled to the point where my clip ons wont allow me to position them and use the steering lock anymore. Not that big of deal to me again because i use a disc lock.

But how can Ducati let their own bikes' resale value drop to shit is beyond me. Thats something I didnt think about because i just plan on keeping my bike until it blows up (who should i tlak to about getting my bike lit on fire?)

Now i have to go check my fuel pump for leaks. eh i have a spare metal tank sitting on the shelf.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on March 24, 2010, 07:22:49 AM
One workable solution is to retrofit a metal fuel tank from an EFI monster onto your bike.

Hey however Ducati wants to fix it is fine by me  ;)




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 24, 2010, 09:41:39 AM
Funny. I actually like the look of the expanded tank on my bike. My only issue was having to use a screw driver to put the lash on and off and the steering lock. Other than that, I have no issues. That's mostly why I'm not pregnant doging about how long it takes them to replace it. Actually, if they take a bit longer, but actually fix the issue, then I'm going to complain even less.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on March 24, 2010, 11:05:16 AM
One workable solution is to retrofit a metal fuel tank from an EFI monster onto your bike.
I thought the earlier models used a different fuel pump set up? When i asked ducshop about getting a carbon fiber tank like kop they showed me the carbon tank had no provision for a bolt in fuel pump.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on March 24, 2010, 11:18:48 AM
Look-I want to sell the bike. I won't sell it and lie about the tank issue. Most people don't want to buy a bike with what they'd consider a major flaw. So currently, it's essentially costing me money.


It's not okay, and it needs to be fixed.



agree...FWIW own a steel tanked Monster that I love but is physically too small for me, want to trade up to an aircooled Multistrada but the tank issue has put that idea on hold until it is resolved with a permanent solution, have been following this thread and hoping Ducati comes through...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: krista on March 24, 2010, 01:14:06 PM
Chris,

I appreciate your sarcasm.  It is ironic because if you knew me, you would know that I have been wrenching on bikes for over 20 years - mostly BMWs and old Triumphs ... I recently bought my S2R1000 to ride - not to have to determine work arounds.  Yeah, I realize that as my tank swells to the point the latch does not work that I can unbolt the rear of the tank to remove it, but I do not think I am asking too much for features of the bike to work as intended at this stage of its life.

-Jeff

Yeah... I hear you. It sucks, but it's the reality now. :P pregnant doging to vent is one thing ... some of the stuff I read on here (not from you, and I don't know who from, as I don't remember names) about lawsuits and the like are more than over-the-top.

But how can Ducati let their own bikes' resale value drop to shit is beyond me. Thats something I didnt think about because i just plan on keeping my bike until it blows up (who should i tlak to about getting my bike lit on fire?)

Now i have to go check my fuel pump for leaks. eh i have a spare metal tank sitting on the shelf.

Resale value? Man, they have preferred that resale value goes down. That's how new bike sales pick up! :) Nothing will compare to the 999 to 1098 transition...



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on March 24, 2010, 03:32:31 PM
I don't see the correlation if a 2 year old bike is alot cheaper than the new one why would i buy the new bike. The 999 to 1098 situation had to do with the better bike being the same price as the used inferior bike.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 24, 2010, 04:16:19 PM
I don't see the correlation if a 2 year old bike is alot cheaper than the new one why would i buy the new bike. The 999 to 1098 situation had to do with the better bike being the same price as the used inferior bike.  


the 999 is suppose to hold its own against the 1098. not sure about 1198. theres your big gap, yet 2005 999s are still shit expensive. You could get a used 1098 for just about 2-3 grand more when the 999 shows up for about 9-10grand.

I thought the earlier models used a different fuel pump set up? When i asked ducshop about getting a carbon fiber tank like kop they showed me the carbon tank had no provision for a bolt in fuel pump.

so THATS why he doesnt ride his bike..... no fuel pump...who woudda dunk.  :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 24, 2010, 04:31:24 PM
There are a few alternatives... if you come across a metal tank, one can always plumb an external fuel pump.
- "Fuel Cell" can also make you a tank
- Chris can amaze us some more with his talent and come up with a tank for FI  ;D
-Plumb an external pump for the carbie tanks that chris  designed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 25, 2010, 02:56:19 PM
Yeah... I hear you. It sucks, but it's the reality now. :P pregnant doging to vent is one thing ... some of the stuff I read on here (not from you, and I don't know who from, as I don't remember names) about lawsuits and the like are more than over-the-top.

<snip>


Why?

They made a business decision that didn't work.

Why should the customers put more money out of pocket to fix the mistake?

I'm not advocating that Ducati go out of business, but you would think there would be a middle ground .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 25, 2010, 05:25:55 PM
Perhaps Ducati's middle ground is replacing the tanks. But to not get reassurance the expansion wont happen again is very tough to swallow. Like I mentioned earlier, all my gas powered garden/outdoor tools have plastic tanks... those tanks are in perfect shape. With the new monsters possibly having problems, its just inexcusable.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: krista on March 25, 2010, 11:23:39 PM
Why? They made a business decision that didn't work. Why should the customers put more money out of pocket to fix the mistake?
I'm not advocating that Ducati go out of business, but you would think there would be a middle ground .

The middle ground is going to be replacement upon such a time that the fuel tank doesn't hold fuel. Otherwise, the expanding will be an "undocumented feature". And a cosmetic one, at that.

It still isn't a "business decision". They didn't chose to have this happen. And you think they are going to spend a several million $ on new tanks? I don't think so.

There have been a number of issues on all kinds of products over the years where owners and manufactures get stuck in a bad deal. Ultimately, I don't see this being a safety issue. I am pretty sure that Ducati will be prompt to replace a tank that's actually leaking fuel when there's no apparent cause for it to. (which could be a safety issue)

What's a 2005 S2R 800 like mine worth right now? $5000? $6000? Either way, we're talking about a replacement part that's 1/3 to 1/2 the value of the vehicle. It doesn't make sense to do that over something that isn't a safety issue.

Does the bike run? Yes. Does it spill gas? No. Is the paint flaking off? No. Looks to me like Ducati is already doing far more than they could be (or have ever done before) in trying to please. This is a bit Lord of the Flies.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 26, 2010, 01:24:24 AM
The middle ground is going to be replacement upon such a time that the fuel tank doesn't hold fuel. Otherwise, the expanding will be an "undocumented feature". And a cosmetic one, at that.

It still isn't a "business decision". They didn't chose to have this happen. And you think they are going to spend a several million $ on new tanks? I don't think so.

<snip>
The business decision was one of switching to a different material on the tank.

I'm assuming they made that decision based on cost and it hasn't worked.

I would argue that a tank that doesn't operate as designed is more than a 'undocumented feature' and is not cosmetic. Just because you're willing to struggle to change a battery or service an air cleaner doesn't mean everyone is.

You are correct though. It is in no way a safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 26, 2010, 01:33:40 AM
The middle ground is going to be replacement upon such a time that the fuel tank doesn't hold fuel. Otherwise, the expanding will be an "undocumented feature". And a cosmetic one, at that.

It still isn't a "business decision". They didn't chose to have this happen. And you think they are going to spend a several million $ on new tanks? I don't think so.

There are other options and Ducati is working on them right now. 


Quote
There have been a number of issues on all kinds of products over the years where owners and manufactures get stuck in a bad deal. Ultimately, I don't see this being a safety issue. I am pretty sure that Ducati will be prompt to replace a tank that's actually leaking fuel when there's no apparent cause for it to. (which could be a safety issue)

You don't see it as a safety issue, but Ducati does which is part of why they are replacing tanks on bikes that are out of warranty (both of them) and with 30,000 miles on the clock.

Quote
What's a 2005 S2R 800 like mine worth right now? $5000? $6000? Either way, we're talking about a replacement part that's 1/3 to 1/2 the value of the vehicle. It doesn't make sense to do that over something that isn't a safety issue.

I respect your opinion, you know bikes.  However, a small number of tanks ARE leaking and Ducati is taking the cosmetic issue seriously.  If you had posted this 6 months ago I might have been discouraged but I have found Ducati more than willing and interested to try to resolve this.

Quote
Does the bike run? Yes. Does it spill gas? No. Is the paint flaking off? No. Looks to me like Ducati is already doing far more than they could be (or have ever done before) in trying to please. This is a bit Lord of the Flies.

well. uh..  nuts to your asthma!

best,

'tiz


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 26, 2010, 01:51:50 AM
You are correct though. It is in no way a safety issue.

My tank latch would not engage at all.  The dealer removed the latch so the tank would sit on the bike flat.  I put a bungee cord across the top so the tank would not bounce while I was riding


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 26, 2010, 02:09:24 AM
My tank latch would not engage at all.  The dealer removed the latch so the tank would sit on the bike flat.  I put a bungee cord across the top so the tank would not bounce while I was riding
I've ridden bikes with more wrong than that. ;D

Let me re-phrase...not usually a safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 26, 2010, 02:50:31 AM
I've ridden bikes with more wrong than that. ;D

Let me re-phrase...not usually a safety issue.

One bike, sure.  When I was 19, I had a CM400 that had a CB tank duct taped to it -- for like a month. 

Having the original tank swell to the point it is potentially unsafe to use (and there is a possibility it will leak directly onto the heads) is a safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 26, 2010, 02:51:35 AM
My biggest concern has always been the steering lock, which is more of a security concern than safety


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on March 26, 2010, 06:42:16 AM
Does the bike run? Yes. Does it spill gas? No. Is the paint flaking off? No. Looks to me like Ducati is already doing far more than they could be (or have ever done before) in trying to please. This is a bit Lord of the Flies.

My paint is flaking off over a particularly noticeable tank tumor.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 26, 2010, 06:57:00 AM
My paint is flaking off over a particularly noticeable tank tumor.

Can paint flaking into your eyes be considered a safety issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: krista on March 26, 2010, 10:19:23 AM
So yes, all you folks with the recent quoting of my post: if you would have READ what I wrote and weren't all panty-bunched, you would realize that each case you mention are a great common sense middle-ground that are covered by what I wrote.

Paint flaking off: check
Leaking: check
Steering lock not functional: Oops missed that. Check

Absolutely.

Yeah, so I've said my piece and am going to peace out of this thread as I feel I've made my point.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 26, 2010, 10:22:20 AM
So yes, all you folks with the recent quoting of my post:

I like quoting.
When I was 19

80 years ago

Let me re-phrase...

I got nothing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Howie on March 26, 2010, 11:01:29 AM
Can paint flaking into your eyes be considered a safety issue?

No.  You are supposed to wear proper eye protection :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on March 26, 2010, 12:17:31 PM
I got notice that my tank would be replaced today.  No specified delivery date...only 2 weeks from the time I dropped her off.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 27, 2010, 06:57:32 AM
Sounds like it was approved. After approval the factory has to ship it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 27, 2010, 08:25:15 AM
Sounds like it was approved. After approval the factory has to ship it.

no they dont.  [roll] well that was just my case.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 27, 2010, 02:12:08 PM
Guys,

So, has anyone else noticed a build up of pressure in their tank when opening the filler cap?  Is this normal or do I need to look for a clogged canister or an actual pinched vent line?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 27, 2010, 05:35:07 PM
Follow the vent line from under the tank. Mine hangs in the open, since I took off my charcoal canister.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Switters on March 31, 2010, 02:32:52 PM
Hey Folks,

Just wondering if anyone knows if the 2010 Monsters will suffer the same fate as the others regarding the tank expansion. 

I think I saw someone mentioning their '09 having problems, so I can only assume it's an identical tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 31, 2010, 02:56:15 PM
You should weigh your concerns in the sticky thread.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 31, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
agreed, move to sticky, but;
my '09 696 just had its internal tank replaced under warranty, only took a couple weeks to arrive...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 31, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
agreed, move to sticky, but;
my '09 696 just had its internal tank replaced under warranty, only took a couple weeks to arrive...


what were the symptoms?  my understanding is that those tanks are a totally different material from the non-panel type..



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Switters on March 31, 2010, 04:33:49 PM
Sorry.  Probably should have just stuck it here. 

So that's my question, I thought the tanks were different than those that have been having problems, but have they actually corrected the "problem" or just redesigned the shape of the tank? 

I've put an order in for a 2010 696, but if it's going to encounter this issue, I'd probably switch to a different bike... :-(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 31, 2010, 06:22:30 PM
Sorry.  Probably should have just stuck it here. 

So that's my question, I thought the tanks were different than those that have been having problems, but have they actually corrected the "problem" or just redesigned the shape of the tank? 

I've put an order in for a 2010 696, but if it's going to encounter this issue, I'd probably switch to a different bike... :-(
I wouldnt let that stop you from ordering one. The bike far out weighs the possibilities of  any tank issues. The tank is emission control. So its even warrantied further than the standard warranty
All bikes have their issues. So buying something else isnt going to guarantee anything.
A few brands come to mind that are more "terminal" than a expanding tank. Just my 2 cents


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 01, 2010, 01:53:33 AM
I wouldnt let that stop you from ordering one. The bike far out weighs the possibilities of  any tank issues. The tank is emission control. So its even warrantied further than the standard warranty
All bikes have their issues. So buying something else isnt going to guarantee anything.
A few brands come to mind that are more "terminal" than a expanding tank. Just my 2 cents


i agree.  i started this whole thread and effort and so far, i think Ducati's response has been very good.  i am still going to push for a recall, but they are replacing *every* expanded tank that comes thru the door -- the only problems have been with individual dealers who don't understand the process.

moreover, the warranties are useful but Ducati has replaced tanks far outside the warranties.  they know this is a problem. 

i said i'd like to avoid a lawsuit and i might get my wish.  that would be nice -- how many attorneys will say that? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on April 01, 2010, 12:46:57 PM
Sorry.  Probably should have just stuck it here.  

So that's my question, I thought the tanks were different than those that have been having problems, but have they actually corrected the "problem" or just redesigned the shape of the tank?  

I've put an order in for a 2010 696, but if it's going to encounter this issue, I'd probably switch to a different bike... :-(
I'm kinda with you on that. When i bought this bike I was planning on keeping it for at least 10 to 12 years. This tank issue has me concerned what its going to mean for me to keep it that long. Looking back knowing what i know now i likely would have chosen differently. But I must agree with duckintime also as these are some kick ass bikes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on April 03, 2010, 06:59:41 AM
I got the call that my tank is in.  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on April 05, 2010, 02:06:24 AM
Started the peperwork with my dealer friday. Now we wait..... [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on April 06, 2010, 02:54:49 PM
Tank is replaced :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on April 09, 2010, 01:19:30 AM
My tank is on order.  All it took was emailing the Service Manager of my nearest dealer photos of the front of the tank rubbing against the ignition switch assembly and the right side frame pad not lining up with the frame (same photos posted above).  I asked if there are any changes to the new tanks so this does not repeat.  He told me that they have not seen any reoccurrence with replacement tanks, but if it takes two years to manifest, I am not sure they would, yet.  I will ask the installer when the new tank arrives to compare it with the original and report my findings.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on April 09, 2010, 01:49:12 PM
We looked at the new one vs the old and the only differences we saw was the bottom of the tank, right above where the battery sits is bigger.  This was also confirmed when we tried to close the tank.  My PCIII was sitting on my battery but the tank would not go down with it there.  So now I have to find a new spot for my PCIII or get one of the smaller A123 type batteries.  I will move it for now.

The insides of the tank looked exactly the same.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on April 11, 2010, 11:10:35 AM
FWIW, my dealer told me the replacement tanks were different and no more swelling should occur. He couldn't tell me what was different though. ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 12, 2010, 04:48:32 AM
Tank arrived on Friday. Took just over a week to get. Not sure if that is because it's a Dark, but I'm taking it in tomorrow to replace. The tanks are still the same, but I'm going to buy an additive that to deal with the ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on April 14, 2010, 11:17:43 AM
My tank is on order.  All it took was emailing the Service Manager of my nearest dealer photos of the front of the tank rubbing against the ignition switch assembly and the right side frame pad not lining up with the frame (same photos posted above).  I asked if there are any changes to the new tanks so this does not repeat.  He told me that they have not seen any reoccurrence with replacement tanks, but if it takes two years to manifest, I am not sure they would, yet.  I will ask the installer when the new tank arrives to compare it with the original and report my findings.

-Jeff

My tank is already in.  It took only a week to recieve it.  I have an appointment this Saturday to have it installed.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 15, 2010, 03:59:49 AM
Mine is installed. Now I just need to pick it up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on April 15, 2010, 09:08:21 AM
Glanced at my bike on the way out to work... had my tank replaced 11 months ago. Guess what, mis fitting and dimpling again.  [bang] [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on April 15, 2010, 09:10:10 AM
Glanced at my bike on the way out to work... had my tank replaced 11 months ago. Guess what, mis fitting and dimpling again.  [bang] [bang]

So, out of curiousity,  do you still stand by your previous statement?

I wouldnt let that stop you from ordering one. The bike far out weighs the possibilities of  any tank issues. The tank is emission control. So its even warrantied further than the standard warranty
All bikes have their issues. So buying something else isnt going to guarantee anything.
A few brands come to mind that are more "terminal" than a expanding tank. Just my 2 cents



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on April 15, 2010, 06:09:01 PM
So, out of curiousity,  do you still stand by your previous statement?

Glad you asked.. and honestly, I do feel jaded about it. The bike does everything I want it to, its a great designed bike for my needs. Had it finally dialed in.  But for Ducati to come up short on a gas tank design?? If it was a rat bike, I wouldnt care. Would it stop me from buying a new ducati? I dont think so, but it would be something in the back of my mind. Id rather have the fuel tank issues than some of the probs from other bikes.
On the bright side, its not a toyota.... my throttle does go back to idle  [cheeky]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 16, 2010, 09:33:10 AM
Got mine back. Will be using the enzyme to counter act the ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on April 18, 2010, 07:48:03 AM
Got mine back. Will be using the enzyme to counter act the ethanol.

What enzyme?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 19, 2010, 05:00:42 AM
There's an additive that people have been using mostly on boat engines to counter the ethenol. My local dealer is starting to sell it to avoid these issues. I need to check if I have to add it every time I fill up. I got a flyer, but my daughter got a hold of it, so it has been "misplaced".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on April 20, 2010, 04:22:10 PM
Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment ?

Boaters also use Marine Stabil


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 21, 2010, 05:08:35 AM
Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment ?

Sounds familiar.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on April 26, 2010, 06:05:29 AM
i really havent been keeping up with this whole ordeal...

i joined the yahoo group, filed the NHTSA report, got my tank replaced etc...

but my concern is that if the tank is the exact same as the original, its just a matter of time before it begins to swell, flake, etc..

Anyway its comforting hearing that ducati has been honoring tank replacements for out of warranty bikes but at the same time, im sure eventually the tanks will stop being produced... etc...  needless to say... ive been keeping my eye on the tank and if i notice it starting to experience any of the same issues ill probably just resort to selling the bike and picking up a newer monster... or saving up for a streetfighter  [moto]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 26, 2010, 07:06:50 AM
From what I understand the tanks will eventually suffer through the same issue. From what I've heard from the dealers, a new tank will be shipped out that will not have the same issue, but like the elusive unicorn, we have not seen it yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on April 27, 2010, 08:25:07 AM
From what I understand the tanks will eventually suffer through the same issue. From what I've heard from the dealers, a new tank will be shipped out that will not have the same issue, but like the elusive unicorn, we have not seen it yet.

i saw one and killed it.

What numbers are you geting for your fill ups

im hitting 3.6gallons right now. i ahvent checked, but i think its leaking around hte edges. :/


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 27, 2010, 08:41:26 AM
Does anything ever go right with your bike?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on April 27, 2010, 09:43:53 AM
Does anything ever go right with your bike?

If it was a horse.....




I would shoot it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on April 27, 2010, 10:12:15 AM
If it was a horse.....




I would shoot it.

Is there such a thing as the glue factory for bikes?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on April 27, 2010, 11:01:32 AM
Is there such a thing as the glue factory for bikes?

It's called ebay.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 28, 2010, 02:25:31 PM
Just purchased this past week a 2005 Monster S2R 800 with approximately 5400 miles.
At time of purchase, I was aware of the tank issue, which this bike did have.
Long story short, this bike was a good deal that I couldn't pass up.

Just got off the phone today with the service manager of Ducati NY and was advised that Ducati is no longer honoring warranty claims on the tank issues if the tank is just showing typical sighs of expansion.
He further advised that a warranty claim may be covered in cases where the tank is leaking or other extreme no-start issues.

Can anyone advise further.

TIA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 28, 2010, 04:33:03 PM
Just purchased this past week a 2005 Monster S2R 800 with approximately 5400 miles.
At time of purchase, I was aware of the tank issue, which this bike did have.
Long story short, this bike was a good deal that I couldn't pass up.

Just got off the phone today with the service manager of Ducati NY and was advised that Ducati is no longer honoring warranty claims on the tank issues if the tank is just showing typical sighs of expansion.
He further advised that a warranty claim may be covered in cases where the tank is leaking or other extreme no-start issues.

Can anyone advise further.

TIA

They are idiots.  As of the last time I spoke with my contact at Ducati NA, they are replacing any tank that shows any significant expansion.  They issued a tech bulletin for the SC tank expansion which is a half-measure fix just in case the tank expands nad contracts (as far as I understand).

If your tank rubbers are off the frame and/or the front is touching the keyswitch, it will be replaced.

You are the third individual I've heard from that has been told that BULLSHIT story by Ducati NY. 

Take your bike and all your business to another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Howie on April 28, 2010, 06:26:14 PM
They are idiots.  As of the last time I spoke with my contact at Ducati NA, they are replacing any tank that shows any significant expansion.  They issued a tech bulletin for the SC tank expansion which is a half-measure fix just in case the tank expands nad contracts (as far as I understand).

If your tank rubbers are off the frame and/or the front is touching the keyswitch, it will be replaced.

You are the third individual I've heard from that has been told that BULLSHIT story by Ducati NY. 

Take your bike and all your business to another dealer.

 [thumbsup]  The dealer's job is to document the claim, DNA makes the decision.  Try another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 29, 2010, 05:20:23 AM
They are idiots.  As of the last time I spoke with my contact at Ducati NA, they are replacing any tank that shows any significant expansion.  They issued a tech bulletin for the SC tank expansion which is a half-measure fix just in case the tank expands nad contracts (as far as I understand).

If your tank rubbers are off the frame and/or the front is touching the keyswitch, it will be replaced.
You are the third individual I've heard from that has been told that BULLSHIT story by Ducati NY. 

Take your bike and all your business to another dealer.

Its doing exactly that ^^^


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 29, 2010, 05:22:41 AM
Try another dealer.


ducatiz, howie:

I'm taking both your advice.

Thx


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 29, 2010, 05:54:33 AM
Read this on another forum:

"...As for the plastic tanks, while they[DNA] have been ignoring the issue for sometime now, they have as of late come to their senses. They've recently (within the last couple days), announced that they are no longer replacing tanks with the same tanks because they'll just swell down the road, instead they're shimming them out to keep them secure. As of right now, they're making a replacement tank that will not have this problem for all Sport Classics. Regardless of being in or out of warranty, they're replacing EVERY sportclassic tank when the new tank comes out. So rest assured, within the near future you'll have a tank that won't have this problem anymore. And the tanks aren't actually Ducati, the company that makes them for Ducati and other motorcycle brands is called Acerbis. So while everyone thinks Ducati has been ignoring the issue, it's actually been Acerbis, Ducati's been trying to get compensation from Acerbis to fix all the tanks. ..."

Anyone else read about this?

Good news?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 29, 2010, 07:09:47 AM
Rumor number 900

The other ones say things like a metal repl and so on.  No one says the dealer name or a source.  Ducati has not and will not say anything until a final fix is in because everything they say could be used in a lawsuit.

Part of why I can't stand ducati.ms anymore.  Just crap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Fergus on April 30, 2010, 08:58:40 AM
Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment ?

Boaters also use Marine Stabil
Anyone got any more info on this? My tank's still OK, but I know I can't rely that Ducati will take care of me when it does go bad. I'd like to do something to forestall that...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 30, 2010, 11:01:53 AM
Anyone got any more info on this? My tank's still OK, but I know I can't rely that Ducati will take care of me when it does go bad. I'd like to do something to forestall that...

I just bought a bottle of Startron my my dealer. They basically told me to add a cap worth to the tank if the bike was going to sit for about a week.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Fergus on April 30, 2010, 01:19:18 PM
I just bought a bottle of Startron my my dealer. They basically told me to add a cap worth to the tank if the bike was going to sit for about a week.
And this counteracts the ill effects of the ethanol? Is it in fact ethanol that causes this problem? Is it the ethanol expanding, causing a pressure build-up, or is it a chemical reaction with the plastic tank material?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 30, 2010, 01:29:53 PM
There is no guarantee that a stabilizer will help

I think a more likely option is coating the tank.  Multi owners report good results with their tanks and caswells


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Fergus on April 30, 2010, 02:56:59 PM
I think a more likely option is coating the tank.  Multi owners report good results with their tanks and caswells
Cool, thanks. I might just do that. Here's a link, just in case anyone else is thinking about it.
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 30, 2010, 04:20:55 PM
Cool, thanks. I might just do that. Here's a link, just in case anyone else is thinking about it.
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)

I've spoken with them (Caswell) several times and they are convinced their coating will have no problems with the nylon/PA tank surface.  Lance Caswell said to rough it up first but that their epoxy based coating would stick to anything except PE (polyethylene).  Quite a few plastic tanks on many vehicles are made from HDPE etc but the Ducati tanks on the bikes UP TO the 696/1100 the later style are all nylon/PA.  I don't know what the later style are made of.  If you look on the underside, there will be a marking as to the composition which is present to comply with EU recycling regs (I am not kidding, my 2005 bike has a "recycle" triangle and a marking with "PA6" next to it -- meaning "polyamide 6" the particular nylon compound)

I don't know that the stabilizers will work.  If ethanol is in fact the problem, then it will still penetrate the tank's inner surface (which by the way is NOT coated at all, my new one still had "artifact bubbles" from the rotomolding process.. soft and could be "popped" wth?)

On the other hand, I have been led to believe the US-spec tanks are actually a different compound from Europe and the rest of the world, which is entirely possible as only Canada and Mexico follow US EPA's regs for things like permeation (which is a standard for plastic tanks).  Thus, it could be a defect in the nylon polymer itself which simply is reacting to any solvent (of which there are half a dozen present in US pump gas -- pick your poison:  xylene, toulene, ethylbenzene, etc etc)

My gut feeling (as I have said before) is that Ducati will start coating the tanks with something like Caswell when they go out the door.  It is far cheaper than coming up with a new tank design, whether a new plastic or metal and, quite simply, solves the problem in the cheapest way possible.

I've pushed the DNA people to start testing tank coatings as I think it's probably the best solution for them and for us.  I can't imagine the cost to buy material and coat 10,000 tanks is but a fraction of the cost to replace 10,000 tanks.

That being said, it really comes down to whether or not the coating works and sticks.  If it does and they start doing it on the good tanks, then I consider that a win for everyone.

But I don't think ethanol stabilizers will help too much against the tank problems.  CANT HURT but I don't think they will stop it too much.  

I don't think you need a virgin tank to do the coating either.  Just drain and clean your un-expanded tank and let it sit for a while to air out, then do the prep for the coating (Caswell says to put a handful of nails in the tanks and shake it around  ??? uhh sure.. )   My gut feeling as an armchair chem eng is that it will work fine.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: hellobrooklyn on May 04, 2010, 10:13:25 PM
Um, I was wondering why the latch was so tricky and controls were not only coming close, but actually touching the tank at full lock on the <7k mile otherwise mint '06 S2R I just picked up.  Why do I feel like Ducati is not going to show me much love as the 2nd owner should this become a bigger problem?  :-\

Glad I at least know about the issue now.  Definitely signing up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 05, 2010, 01:52:31 AM
Um, I was wondering why the latch was so tricky and controls were not only coming close, but actually touching the tank at full lock on the <7k mile otherwise mint '06 S2R I just picked up.  Why do I feel like Ducati is not going to show me much love as the 2nd owner should this become a bigger problem?  :-\

Glad I at least know about the issue now.  Definitely signing up.

Ducati has been replacing tanks for subsequent owners.  The warranty is transferrable and they have been replacing tanks out of warranty with no questions asked.  The only problem has been dealers.

This isn't to say that Ducati might be working on some guidelines.  I can't be sure, but my feeling is that they believe only SOME tanks expand beyond safe dimensions and that SOME expansion is acceptable.  This is the tack they took with the recent bulletin for the Sport Classics, which advises shimming the tank mounts for expanded tanks which are still under a certain width.


I know someone who has procured an expanded tank and is paying to have a laboratory run tests on it to see why it's expanded.  I don't know if they plan to share their info with me or what.  We will see.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on May 07, 2010, 05:24:32 AM
Did anyone else's dealer remove the charcoal canister as part of their tank replacement?  My original tank would build up pressure (see above posts), but my new tank - sans canister - does not.  Hmmm.

-Jeff 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on May 07, 2010, 11:00:37 AM
My new replacement tank less than a year old, it's already pressing againt the ignition swich. Just like the other one did  :'(  And the charcoal canister was removed back in '07   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on May 07, 2010, 11:58:22 AM
charcoal canister doesnt have anything to do with the swelling of the tanks. Wish it did


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: monsterblur on May 07, 2010, 01:19:11 PM
My bike is an 2006 and I'm the 2nd owner.
Went to my local dealer for their opinion 3 weeks ago after seeing this thread . Was contacted today by the dealer and told my tank replacement was approved and the new tank should arrive in 2 weeks.
Hopefully the same swelling issue will not happen but.....
Duc's are one of a kind and I hope this small issue does not deter people.
If I had a choice, I'd buy another Duc over anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 11, 2010, 11:59:13 AM
My dealer said they would not replace my tank since it is not original to the bike. I had a steel tank originally that leaked at the hinge and I effed it up trying to seal it. So I bought a good used plastic tank as a replacement. Swollen all to hell. >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on May 11, 2010, 12:15:47 PM
My dealer said they would not replace my tank since it is not original to the bike. I had a steel tank originally that leaked at the hinge and I effed it up trying to seal it. So I bought a good used plastic tank as a replacement. Swollen all to hell. >:(

Do you still have the metal tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 11, 2010, 01:01:00 PM
Yeah the warranty goes by the vin only.  Can't do that


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 11, 2010, 02:29:38 PM
Metal tank is in my parts bin


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on May 11, 2010, 05:41:57 PM
Metal tank is in my parts bin

I would just send it to Nate and get it fixed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 11, 2010, 06:52:35 PM
Yeah.  And be happy you have it.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 12, 2010, 03:17:28 AM
Yeah.  And be happy you have it.   

+1 make the beast with two backs the plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 12, 2010, 03:35:23 AM
Lol haven't you defiled enough of them? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 12, 2010, 05:30:07 AM
Not the tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 12, 2010, 08:06:01 AM
Yeah.  And be happy you have it.   
Happiness is overrated.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on May 13, 2010, 05:40:36 AM
Happiness is overrated.

Ain't that the truth


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on May 15, 2010, 01:11:51 PM
Finally got my replacement tank!  Took 4 months to ship from when replacement was approved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 15, 2010, 04:47:22 PM
Finally got my replacement tank!  Took 4 months to ship from when replacement was approved.


have you had it installed yet?

see if you can eyeball the old and new tank insides

my new tank looked different inside, but it may have just been unstained.  gasoline stains.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on May 15, 2010, 05:01:36 PM
have you had it installed yet?

see if you can eyeball the old and new tank insides

my new tank looked different inside, but it may have just been unstained.  gasoline stains.



It's been installed and I haven't picked it up yet.


I'll take a look if they have the old one handy too.


Still selling it ASAP.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 15, 2010, 05:19:49 PM
It's been installed and I haven't picked it up yet.


I'll take a look if they have the old one handy too.


Still selling it ASAP.

be a good boy and line the tank as well.   keep your receipts.  if Ducati starts lining their tanks then you might be able to hit them up for the cost.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on May 15, 2010, 07:08:41 PM
be a good boy and line the tank as well.   keep your receipts.  if Ducati starts lining their tanks then you might be able to hit them up for the cost.


I already informed the likely buyer of the tank issue. He can do as he sees fit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 15, 2010, 07:11:56 PM
Schools about to be out and i got time to take it to the shop. Its across state lines, so its not an easy trip to make if i drop off the bike and take the train home, and then take the train there back etc...it'll cost me over $50 in tolls and train fare just to make the 4 legs of this trip!

but did you guys have to leave the bike with them to get it inspected? I fear they will take 3 weeks to insecpt the bike and another month to order the tank, and another month to install it..when the visual confirimation is enough to say the tank doesnt fit...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on May 16, 2010, 05:09:58 AM
You're too used to dealing with idiots. They'll just look at it for five mins, take the VIN, and order one.


Then you bring it back when the new one comes in and they'll swap it out in a day.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on May 16, 2010, 08:43:10 AM
^^ Yes, it was a 5-minute once-over along with some picture-taking for the "inspection".

Then I went home and he called me a day or so later to tell me it was approved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on May 16, 2010, 09:13:43 AM
^^ Yes, it was a 5-minute once-over along with some picture-taking for the "inspection".

Then I went home and he called me a day or so later to tell me it was approved.

+1 that was my experience as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 16, 2010, 10:12:38 AM
Hopefully this will be the case.

Goldcoast said: theres no such thing
Ducati Soho said yes but pretty much lied straight to my face on "the tank is on its way"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 16, 2010, 10:33:10 AM
Hopefully this will be the case.

Goldcoast said: theres no such thing
Ducati Soho said yes but pretty much lied straight to my face on "the tank is on its way"

"there's no such thing" what?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 16, 2010, 10:48:07 AM
this was a while ago, when i had my valve guides replaced, i showed them the tank issue, and they said, theres no such thing as an expanding tank, my tank just needs to get adjusted ( tank mount, tank latch and rubber stops)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 16, 2010, 11:48:07 AM
this was a while ago, when i had my valve guides replaced, i showed them the tank issue, and they said, theres no such thing as an expanding tank, my tank just needs to get adjusted ( tank mount, tank latch and rubber stops)

i wonder what they are saying now that Ducati has replaced thousands of them?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 16, 2010, 03:32:19 PM
I dont care about them enough to ask. I went there for a warranty once out of the blue. They kept giving me various reasons as to why they need "another week". and then when i yelled at them, the parts were magically there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on May 17, 2010, 04:06:40 AM
Just added my name to the list. The gas tank on my 2007 M695 is now nearly impossible to latch/dislatch. Anyone know a good dealer in Atlanta-area who will take care of this?

The place I bought it is no longer in business (Atlanta Triumph Ducati)...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 17, 2010, 05:42:22 AM
Just added my name to the list. The gas tank on my 2007 M695 is now nearly impossible to latch/dislatch. Anyone know a good dealer in Atlanta-area who will take care of this?

The place I bought it is no longer in business (Atlanta Triumph Ducati)...

Take it to NPR Ducati, but they're not close. They're almost to Athens. If it wasn't a warranty issue, I would take it to the Duc Shop, but they don't do warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 17, 2010, 05:47:16 AM
I wouldn't recommend them, but you can probably also check with Atlanta Motor World up in Alpharetta or there's also the BMW dealership that sells Ducs. I still recommend taking it to NPR. You're taking your chances with the other 2.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on May 17, 2010, 06:00:19 AM
Duccarlos - just got off the phone with Brett and NPR Ducati. He said I could email photos to them, along with the VIN and they'd order me a new tank - should arrive within a month from submission of photos.

Brett was totally up to speed with the problems plastic tank owners are having.

Good recommendation (it would appear).

Thanks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 17, 2010, 07:44:41 AM
NPR is hands down the best dealership in Georgia.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 17, 2010, 07:45:37 AM
That is very cool that they'll let you send photos.  I'm sure they doublecheck when you bring the bike in.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on May 17, 2010, 08:50:29 AM
That is very cool that they'll let you send photos.  I'm sure they doublecheck when you bring the bike in.

Not sure why, assuming they are being paid to do the work. I'm not driving an hour each way to replace a perfectly good tank.

In any event, it'd be fine with me if they checked it out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 18, 2010, 06:27:57 AM
Anyone know how big these tanks will get? I took off the rear pivot mount and lengthened the holes so that I could slide the tank back a bit further. The tank fits properly again for the time being. [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 18, 2010, 12:08:48 PM
My old tank was almost 6 inches bigger in circumference. Your effort may be fine for you.  Some tanks are expanding irregularly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on May 18, 2010, 12:46:59 PM
Got the call that my tank is in.  Take it in on Friday to do the swap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on May 20, 2010, 06:45:08 PM
Fcuk, the paint on my tank is cracking on the left side near the rubber support.  [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wantingaduc on May 21, 2010, 09:46:39 AM
Has anyone had problems with expansion on a replacement tank and if so has Ducati stepped up to cover a second tank?
I had the original one on my 06 620 dark replaced last summer but I noticed the other day that I had to readjust the steering stop, which was the first indication of the expansion the other time.

I bought the EverRed warranty in hopes that if anything went wrong with the bike I'd be covered but I get the sinking feeling that they will try and dodge the tank if it actually expanding again.

jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 21, 2010, 01:22:37 PM
Jimi

I have guys on my list who have gotten 2 replacements.  Dna is replacing them. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on May 21, 2010, 07:36:42 PM
I am in an odd situation.  Oklahoma still allows 100% gas but I hear the Federal Gov. is going to force our state to sell only e10 in the future.  I use 100% gas now so my tank has not expanded yet, but I am afraid it will when e10 becomes mandated and is the only fuel available.  By then my warranty will probably be expired and I'll be SOL.  I'd like to get an ethanol-proof tank but unless mine expands, there will be no replacement...  Should I start running e10 now so I can get a replacement tank while I still can?  e10 sux.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 22, 2010, 12:40:21 AM
Bill are you sure there is no e10 in OK? 

Pm coming


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on May 24, 2010, 08:45:53 AM
Bill are you sure there is no e10 in OK? 

Pm coming

There is e10 and 100% gas available here.  They passed a state law that requires the stations to label the pumps so I can choose.  I put 100% gas in my vehicles and lawn equipment.  Sometimes I don't have a choice but if I have to buy e10 out somewhere, I generally use most of it up and can fill up with real gas before I get home.  Generally you can count on Valero to have real gas around here, the other stations vary by location.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on May 25, 2010, 12:59:49 PM
06 S2R 1000. This spring unable to unlatch.

Called dealer , he called Ducati, they want to have me bring up the bike and take pix.

My Question:
(Probably covered before but I don't want to sift through 38 pages of posts...)

Should I put my evaporative canister back on the bike before taking it to the dealer?

How 'bout original exhaust?

My guess is, canister, Yes. Exhaust, No need.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 25, 2010, 01:31:24 PM
Neither.   Mine is heavily modded, pc3n no belt covers, full exhaust, cut airbox, evap long gone.  They replaced it wo a tweet.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on May 26, 2010, 04:52:57 AM
Should I put my evaporative canister back on the bike before taking it to the dealer?

My dealer actually removed my canister when replacing my tank.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 26, 2010, 01:37:10 PM
2007 s4rs.

I joined the list today. Can someone give me the short version of how the replacement process works??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on May 26, 2010, 02:31:15 PM
Go to dealership, they take pics, you take bike, they send in claim, call you when its in.
In my case, they started the paper work before they saw the bike. My bike was in the shop for about a week or 2.
Dont let your dealership give you the run around or pass the buck. Ducati knows about this.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 27, 2010, 01:56:13 AM
I managed to pick up a tank that I can send out for lab testing. 

Stay tuned.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on May 27, 2010, 04:45:43 AM
I still think this is a multiple variable problem.  I am posting because it is boating season again, and I got to use my 5 gallon plastic boat tank last week.  That thing was expanded like a ballon.  It had been sitting all winter with the cap on and vent closed.  I had a hard time even twisting the cap off it was under so much pressure. 

It gradually goes back to "original" shape after a day or 2 sitting with the vent open.  But, it is thin, flexible material, so it doesn't have a memory.   If it was a material that yielded plastic (irreversible), then it would do the same thing as the monster tanks are doing.  So, I think it may be a combination of pressure, poor venting, poor materials, and maybe ethanol is a catalyst.

It would be fun to install a pressure gauge on a sealed tank with some gas in it, and then record the pressure with time and temperature.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 27, 2010, 05:28:23 AM
So, I think it may be a combination of pressure, poor venting, poor materials, and maybe ethanol is a catalyst.

mitt

That is sad considering that it's Ducati were talking about here. None of the $8000 Suzuki motorcycles I've owned have had expanding gas tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on May 27, 2010, 04:35:57 PM
How long will Ducati continue to make tanks for the monsters with problems? I've had mine replaced once, and I am afraid if it happens again, that it's up to me for replacement. Which I would do, want to do, but I refuse to have a deformed tank. I had mine replace less then a year ago, and I just laid it down. With some good scratches. My thought is to have it repainted, and while I'm at it, have the inside coated. Has anyone had any luck with this?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 27, 2010, 04:58:14 PM
No idea how long Ducati will make the tanks.  I have a feeling that whatever EOL plans they had for these tanks has changed, but I know nothing yet.

As far as coating, a good number of people have reported doing it (Caswell seems to be the preferred).  A lot of riders on the Multi board have used it and are reporting that it is fine.  I don't know what one would look for it "not working" which would mean it stops stickign to the tank.

I plan to have mine coated, from my correspondence with Lance Caswell, their formula will stick to the polyamide tank just fine.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on May 28, 2010, 02:54:26 PM
Just got the call today from my dealer. Tank is in! [beer] That's 8 weeks to the day of starting the paperwork. I just wish my battery had waited a few more weeks before kicking the bucket! Getting that tank off sucked balls!!! :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 29, 2010, 05:43:06 AM
Just dropped my bike off at Duc Pond Motorsports in winchester, VA. They took one look at it and said they wouldn't have any problem getting this one approved. The tech described the tank as "having more dimples than a golf ball". He was also surprised that the ignition didn't cease to function due to the amount of pressure the tank was putting on it. I hope this goes quickly as I'd hate to miss out on the majority of the 2010 riding season.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on May 29, 2010, 07:52:43 AM
Still waiting on my tank, since December. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 29, 2010, 11:33:50 AM
Still waiting on my tank, since December. 

OK this is what I would call terrible news.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 29, 2010, 01:35:42 PM
OK this is what I would call terrible news.

it depends on the color

mine is the Acid Yellow, which was only on the '05 models.  other colors have quicker ship.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 30, 2010, 02:42:55 AM




it depends on the color

mine is the Acid Yellow, which was only on the '05 models.  other colors have quicker ship.

 I've got the white with red rally stripe which (I think) is pretty standard.

That makes sense and makes me feel alot better about this. I still can't figure out why I chose Memorial Day weekend to voluntarily drop my bike off for service.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on May 30, 2010, 04:15:44 AM
Finally picked up the bike yesterday from Battley Cycles in Maryland. 
I dropped it off to do the swap on Friday of last week, and it was supposed to be done on Saturday.

They called me Saturday to say they may have broke the quick disconnect nipple while pulling the tank and they would need to order the part.
They got the new part in, (which includes the entire fuel pump assembly) and installed it and the new tank without charging me a penny.

One week total.
Very happy with the service and communication.
And the ride yesterday was fantastic!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on May 30, 2010, 10:33:28 AM
it depends on the color

mine is the Acid Yellow, which was only on the '05 models.  other colors have quicker ship.

My '07 gloss black took 4 months.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 30, 2010, 02:14:31 PM
I should have said, mine is the Acid Yellow color and took 6 months.

I think there are a lot of factors affecting delivery schedules.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on May 30, 2010, 03:28:21 PM
Just made my claim yesterday...and now the waiting game begins.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on June 01, 2010, 05:11:41 AM
wooo hoo got the call this morning....
jeff from euro cycles called to inform me that the red/ white stripe tank for my '07 s4rs has arrived....
appointment set for tomorrow 2pm, he estimates an hour and a half to swap tanks....
drain fuel, exchange fuel pump assembly and hardware, swap....

initial claim , and post here, March 4 2010, so just about three months end to end....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 01, 2010, 05:19:57 AM
I guess the dark tank is always the better choice. End to end it took them 3 weeks and that was because I took 5 extra days to drop off the bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 02, 2010, 07:44:59 AM
First off thanks to ducatiz for putting this together. Second off..no I have not had any issues thus far (I hope) with my 06 red/white s2r 800. Just picked it up last fri and now saw this post. Needless to say I am nervous and cannot wait to get home and inspect my tank with a microscope. Few quick questions....If mine has gone this long is it safe to say Im out of the woods? Is their any preventative things I can do ? Does the ethanol hypothesis still hold weight? If so, which gas stations are the safest bet? Thanks guys for any help/guidance.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 02, 2010, 08:45:09 AM
Most think that the ethanol is definitely not helping. There are few gas stations that still provide 100% ethanol free gas. You would need to look for the specific stations in your area. I have yet to hear of someone that has had this issue when using normal gas.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 02, 2010, 10:06:39 AM
Thanks, I'll look into it. What a bummer though. Come to mention it, looked at the same bike but an 05 where the tank looked waaay to big for the frame and the owner had no clue. I thought it was maybe a tank that was rebuilt and the dude wasnt being straight up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on June 02, 2010, 11:27:04 AM
just a quick note, got the new warrantied tank installed in just about 2 hours, [thumbsup]
just got back from the shop with the trailer, will post detailed pics in a separate thread shortly...
so, tank warrantied and replaced in about 3 months even, from visual inspection to return home.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 04, 2010, 08:31:31 AM
First off thanks to ducatiz for putting this together. Second off..no I have not had any issues thus far (I hope) with my 06 red/white s2r 800. Just picked it up last fri and now saw this post. Needless to say I am nervous and cannot wait to get home and inspect my tank with a microscope. Few quick questions....If mine has gone this long is it safe to say Im out of the woods? Is their any preventative things I can do ? Does the ethanol hypothesis still hold weight? If so, which gas stations are the safest bet? Thanks guys for any help/guidance.
You may not be so lucky. I didn't start to notice any issues on my '06 S2r800 till about 2 months ago. I never paid much attention to this thread cuz my tank was fine. That is, until a buddy told me to look at my tank and sure enough, no ripples but it was almost touching the ignition switch. I have an appt to get my new tank installed next saturday.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Trenchdigger on June 06, 2010, 03:40:31 AM
Looks like I'm suffering this same problem too.  It's not severe yet, and hopefully won't be, but it is there: Tank Expansion.  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 08, 2010, 02:04:11 PM
went to Rockwell Cycles. The secretary checked it out and it sounds like i am going to get a tank. My tank latch is pushing against the keysensor and one bumper is 90% off the frame and theres bumps all over, my steering damper is also hitting the tank. she took a bunch of pics and is submitting the claim for me.

Ive never met a dealer with as cool guys and customers as Rockwell. Its a much smaller shop than goldcoast and i got a chance to talk to a few techs, they are supercool guys.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 08, 2010, 02:27:47 PM
I'm glad you finally are getting some action but now I'm afraid a meteor will strike Rockwells!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 08, 2010, 03:23:36 PM
I'm glad you finally are getting some action but now I'm afraid a meteor will strike Rockwells!


>:O


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on June 08, 2010, 04:29:18 PM
I'm glad you finally are getting some action but now I'm afraid a meteor will strike Rockwells!

 [laugh] [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: beancounter on June 10, 2010, 09:06:27 AM
went to Rockwell Cycles. The secretary checked it out and it sounds like i am going to get a tank. My tank latch is pushing against the keysensor and one bumper is 90% off the frame and theres bumps all over, my steering damper is also hitting the tank. she took a bunch of pics and is submitting the claim for me.

Ive never met a dealer with as cool guys and customers as Rockwell. Its a much smaller shop than goldcoast and i got a chance to talk to a few techs, they are supercool guys.

+1 on Rockwell Cycles [thumbsup]

I was there with He Man and had them submit a claim for my tank as well.  Waiting to see what happens.  Also, I joined the ducatiplastictanks group and will submit my info momentarily.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 11, 2010, 11:52:18 AM
If they let me keep my tank, im going to set it on fire and roll it down a hill.

only because i cant burn my whole bike....



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 12, 2010, 06:21:22 AM
I just dropped my bike this morning to get the tank replaced. Service Mgr said they have had luck getting DNA to replace tank protectors as well. I have a Ducati Corse carbon protector on my tank, and getting it off in one piece ain't gonna happen. Anybody else get one replaced with their tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: poseur on June 14, 2010, 07:33:54 AM
Any update as to whether Ducati is using a new and/or modified tank yet?  I have a 796 on order.  Maybe I should cancel until this is sorted out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on June 14, 2010, 02:40:48 PM
Any update as to whether Ducati is using a new and/or modified tank yet?  I have a 796 on order.  Maybe I should cancel until this is sorted out.
Someone was having probs with their 696 tank.. scroll a few pages back. It was pushing out the tank covers. Dunno, but for me id be looking for a metal tank on any new bike these days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: markmon on June 14, 2010, 08:05:28 PM
I have a plastic tank too. Can anyone provide pictures for some show and tell...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 15, 2010, 12:40:13 AM
Scroll back to the first few pages.  I've requested ppl send me pics but only a few have come in.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 17, 2010, 06:55:11 AM

I got the call yesterday that my tank is in and that I'm scheduled for installation next Tuesday. Can't believe how quick and painless that was!

My digital camera is broken but I'll try to take some cell pics of the expanded tank tonight.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 17, 2010, 07:53:24 AM
Well looks like this may be happening to me now. Just bought an 06 s2r in red/white a month ago w/ 5500k on it. At first I saw two tiny dimples maybe a mm in diameter assuming it was from direct damage, and now there is a couple more. You can only see it in the right light. Damn [bang]...assuming it took so long to happen since the guy barely put any miles on it and drained the fuel system when it sat. Since then Ive put about 700 miles on it.  Wonder if my dealer will go ahead and replace it even if its in the beginning stages. Funny my brother wants a yamaha and all of a sudden is breaking my balls about my expensive ducati with the magical illusion of a tank. WTF.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 08:47:51 AM
I am surprised at the LOW number of NHTSA reports.  Unless we get the numbers up it is very unlikely there will be a recall.  I have spoken to them several times and the basically say there just isn't enough reports.

I have >200 people on my mail list and about 30 people have files reports with NHTSA.

Unless more people step up and make official complaints, my efforts are a big waste of time.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on June 17, 2010, 09:16:14 AM
Near as I can 'tiz.....

people are just concerned with getting a new tank, and not getting a recall instituted.



Which is fine until the tank warps again, and Ducati doesn't cover it. I know the wifey did it-what are the rest of you doing?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 09:32:09 AM
I have at least 20 ppl on my mail list who are on a second replacement and 5 who have had 3 replacements.

Ducati replaced cracked 900ss frames until a few years ago.  I doubt with this voilume they will be so generous.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 17, 2010, 09:43:59 AM
I just got my bike and am new to this but do I have to wait to file a report when my tank gets fixed? I would be willining to do it now if I can. How do I go about that?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Spyvito on June 17, 2010, 10:04:22 AM
Thanks for doing this, I have signed up (I think).  I am certain however that I filed a NHTSA complaint on their site but never heard back.  I have a 2006 Paul Smart that is on it's second gas tank.  First was replaced by Ducati last fall.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 10:10:14 AM
Don't wait.  It is unrelated.  You just need your VIN and mpdel info and to describe the problem

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

I posted some sample language but it is unnecessary.  Saying the gas tank expanded and how much is sufficient.  Mention how on a bike the gas tank IS BETWEEN YOUR LEGS and a split tank would be ahuge problem.  If your handles were/are hitting say so because that affects handling.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 17, 2010, 10:37:21 AM
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.msg705123#msg705123 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.msg705123#msg705123)

Link to how you can tell if you have a warped tank. maybe you can put it in your intial post so everyone can see it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on June 17, 2010, 10:38:09 AM
I just filed a complaint. Thanks Ducatiz.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vaclav on June 17, 2010, 12:03:11 PM
I just filed with NHTSA and subscribed to  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)  Thanks for the links. Also, I took mine in to the dealer two weeks ago. He had a surprised look on his face but he got his digcam out right away and took pictures of the hinge slots and latch area. I called a week later and he said they were backordered. I called again today (two weeks later) - still backordered. And don't call him, he'll call me. Did anybody get any paperwork given to them when they made their complaint? I have no documentation whatsoever.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 12:24:12 PM
Good question on the paperwork


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on June 17, 2010, 12:47:21 PM
I got an email confirmation of my complaint, that's it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 17, 2010, 01:03:42 PM
A recent post has brought me to investigate my filing, and althought I'm fairly confident that I did file a complaint, I have lost my ODI # and my searches do not come up with anything. My next step is to re-file. UPDATE: I did just find my ODI# and really should have left a larger complaint. My concern is that these complaints seem to be scattered on the NHTSA database. And the only option for the monster is the 08' 696 which not too many have had problems yet. Maybe there is not enough complaints due to them being scattered. We all need to do the paperwork. I do not want my tank to get all wacked out and then be forced to pay for it out of my own pocket, only to have it fail a year later.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 02:17:48 PM
The paperwork question was for tank replacement not ODI reports.

I am tracking the reports as they are posted and will print them out in a batch.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on June 17, 2010, 03:26:52 PM
I just filed with NHTSA and subscribed to  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)  Thanks for the links. Also, I took mine in to the dealer two weeks ago. He had a surprised look on his face but he got his digcam out right away and took pictures of the hinge slots and latch area. I called a week later and he said they were backordered. I called again today (two weeks later) - still backordered. And don't call him, he'll call me. Did anybody get any paperwork given to them when they made their complaint? I have no documentation whatsoever.
Vaclav you need to call DNA I was fed this line of b.s for 7 months till i called  DNA they got  on the dealers ass and called me back telling me there was no excuse for this and that i needed to go back to the dealer and this would be handled. That was 3 weeks ago, today the dealer called telling me my tank is in. If you let the dealer push you off you'll likely never see a tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 17, 2010, 04:10:28 PM
Scroll back to the first few pages.  I've requested ppl send me pics but only a few have come in.

Here are a few pics of my tank...

Latch/Ignition
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank4.jpg)

Left side rubber mount
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank1.jpg)

Dimples
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank3.jpg)

Ripple - hard to see but its there
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank2.jpg)


Complaint logged...

Your Complaint Information is successfully submitted.
Your Confirmation number (ODI Number) is: 10336897


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 18, 2010, 08:31:58 AM
Don't wait.  It is unrelated.  You just need your VIN and mpdel info and to describe the problem

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

I posted some sample language but it is unnecessary.  Saying the gas tank expanded and how much is sufficient.  Mention how on a bike the gas tank IS BETWEEN YOUR LEGS and a split tank would be ahuge problem.  If your handles were/are hitting say so because that affects handling.
Thanks..will get on this and file asap. Talked to my dealer here in columbus,ohio and he said of 6 complaints filed, only one has been replaced. Said DNA is intentionally moving slow until a composite is found that doesnt result in reacting the fuel.......?? Either way, he sounded eager to take pics and file the claim although my damage is minimal right now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on June 18, 2010, 10:07:50 AM
DNA is intentionally moving slow until a composite is found that doesnt result in reacting the fuel.......??
I guess if they wait long enough - like maybe 5 years - it magically won't be DNA's problem anymore?  Or does a *known problem* get fixed even after the 5 year warranty has expired?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on June 18, 2010, 11:28:35 AM
I've never seen a duc with more than a two year warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2010, 12:01:04 PM
5 year emissions eq warranty.

Covers your charcoal canister too


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2010, 12:03:40 PM
also the usa emissions warranty dies at about 18000 miles


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on June 18, 2010, 12:20:24 PM
also the usa emissions warranty dies at about 18000 miles

Ours got replaced at 22k.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lethe on June 18, 2010, 12:37:49 PM
I'm at just over 20k and thought mine was immune but just this weekend noticed my latch is further forward than it used to be.  :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 18, 2010, 12:38:36 PM
So does a newly "purchased" tank come with the warranty?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: BK_856er on June 18, 2010, 01:19:45 PM
So does a newly "purchased" tank come with the warranty?

My dealer told me that the replacement tank is automatically covered for 1yr, independent of any mandatory "emissions" or discretionary "goodwill" coverage.  I got replacement tank #2 within the 1yr period -just barely.

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2010, 02:42:16 PM
As of my last conversation with DNA, they are replacing tanks regardless of the age of the bike, and regardless of primary or secondary ownership.

I'd call that good will, across the board.

They might have some kind of insurance for the in-warranty bikes, I don't know how that works.  Nevertheless, for the time being, everyone is getting a tank, unless they are an asian guy whose bike smells like someone dumped garbage on it.   [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on June 18, 2010, 04:20:01 PM
So, what began six months ago is finally getting wrapped up tomorrow.  I'm scheduled to have my tank replaced tomorrow a.m.
I'm pretty stoked since the dealer emailed last week stating that the tank wouldn't arrive until early Aug.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 19, 2010, 05:57:27 AM
So considering that the possibility of having to get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, tank, my guess is that we should at least try the coating that is recommended by other users on this board. My 2nd tank is getting close to a year old, and I believe that I will have the same issue in the not so distant future. Problem is, I laid the bike down and now I have some real small pits in the paint. My guess is that they will not want to warranty it. So if I have to buy a new tank, I want to make sure I do every thing possible to prevent this from happening again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 19, 2010, 06:09:00 AM
Just filed my complaint with the NHTSA. Thought I had filed it before, but didn't. On the bright side I go pick up my bike today, and DNA is going to replace my tank protector. [thumbsup]

<edit>
Interesting talk with the svc mgr when I picked up the bike today. He said the new tanks coming out right now are made with a thicker mold of the same plastic. He was told the added thickness would keep the expansion/rippling at bay. Also, he said they have replaced the fewest  tanks on Monsters. They've already swapped out a bunch of Sport Classics, and even some 898/1098's. Triumph has also joined the party with a bunch of Speed Triples. I would bet the third party supplier is in for a world of hurt from Ducati SpA. FWIW, the part price on my invoice for the tank was $1875!  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on June 20, 2010, 05:54:34 AM
Can't remember if I originally filed with NHTSA or not, anyway, just filled out the form and got back the emailed confirmation  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on June 20, 2010, 09:52:49 AM
FWIW Triumph switched back to steel tanks a few years ago and their plastic tanks were also made by Acerbis IIRC...though from what I've read Triumph plastic tank problems were not nearly as common as on Ducs

<edit>
Interesting talk with the svc mgr when I picked up the bike today. He said the new tanks coming out right now are made with a thicker mold of the same plastic. He was told the added thickness would keep the expansion/rippling at bay. Also, he said they have replaced the fewest  tanks on Monsters. They've already swapped out a bunch of Sport Classics, and even some 898/1098's. Triumph has also joined the party with a bunch of Speed Triples. I would bet the third party supplier is in for a world of hurt from Ducati SpA. FWIW, the part price on my invoice for the tank was $1875!  :o
[/quote]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jacksplat on June 20, 2010, 12:07:58 PM
I have the same problem with my 06 s2r1000. I filed a report with the NHTSA.
Has anyone in manhattan had this problem? Which dealer did you go to?
It would be TREMENDOUSLY helpful if we could have a list of dealers in different states who have repaired these tanks under warranty. It'll be an invaluable resource for newbies like me with the same problem and it'll help reward good dealers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 20, 2010, 02:06:05 PM
I have the same problem with my 06 s2r1000. I filed a report with the NHTSA.
Has anyone in manhattan had this problem? Which dealer did you go to?
It would be TREMENDOUSLY helpful if we could have a list of dealers in different states who have repaired these tanks under warranty. It'll be an invaluable resource for newbies like me with the same problem and it'll help reward good dealers.

A few guys here are in Manhattan.  Don't bother with Corsa, go to Rockwell's.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 20, 2010, 09:34:25 PM
A few guys here are in Manhattan.  Don't bother with Corsa, go to Rockwell's.

+1, dont go to Corsa. Thinking about them touching my bike is equivalent to this. I actually I think this is a great comparision of whats going on there half the time.

like a ketchup bottle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tj6AskAO9s#normal)

Rockwell is much better


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Mojo S2R on June 21, 2010, 07:27:55 AM
FWIW Triumph switched back to steel tanks a few years ago and their plastic tanks were also made by Acerbis IIRC...though from what I've read Triumph plastic tank problems were not nearly as common as on Ducs

<edit>
Interesting talk with the svc mgr when I picked up the bike today. He said the new tanks coming out right now are made with a thicker mold of the same plastic. He was told the added thickness would keep the expansion/rippling at bay. Also, he said they have replaced the fewest  tanks on Monsters. They've already swapped out a bunch of Sport Classics, and even some 898/1098's. Triumph has also joined the party with a bunch of Speed Triples. I would bet the third party supplier is in for a world of hurt from Ducati SpA. FWIW, the part price on my invoice for the tank was $1875!  :o

Holy crap $1875.  For that much dough I wonder if they would rather replace mine with a CF DP tank instead.  I wouldn't have any complaints if they did.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 21, 2010, 02:21:15 PM
 :o :o :o oh shit that was f'n hilarious


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: beancounter on June 21, 2010, 04:21:07 PM
Done.  Filed my DOT NHTSA complaint [thumbsup]



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 21, 2010, 05:25:54 PM
New tanks thicker?

If the problem really is ethanol permeation, then thicker material won't help at all.

It just means a longer "gestation" and even less fuel capacity


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 22, 2010, 02:13:30 AM
New tanks thicker?

If the problem really is ethanol permeation, then thicker material won't help at all.

It just means a longer "gestation" and even less fuel capacity
That's exactly what I was thinking. But I chose to not get into a long debate over it, and go ride.
Considering DNA's response to my clutch failure, I have zero confidence in 99% of what they say. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 22, 2010, 05:28:54 AM
That's exactly what I was thinking. But I chose to not get into a long debate over it, and go ride.
Considering DNA's response to my clutch failure, I have zero confidence in 99% of what they say. ;)

where do these tech hear these things anyway? I swear if its rumors, its one thing, but if they start blurting it out like they heard it from the CEO, i start walking away slowly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 22, 2010, 06:19:39 AM
I always ask when I hear rumors. Last one of these was heard from the regional service manager.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 24, 2010, 01:36:02 AM
My 1st replacement tank was installed this past Tuesday. Couldn't be happier with the timeline... thanks Duc Pond!

They did offer a solution that was guaranteed to solve this problem for good... some sort of coating for $400.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 24, 2010, 01:43:38 AM
My 1st replacement tank was installed this past Tuesday. Couldn't be happier with the timeline... thanks Duc Pond!

They did offer a solution that was guaranteed to solve this problem for good... some sort of coating for $400.

What coating?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on June 27, 2010, 08:32:20 AM
Tank arrived, and will be installed on Saturday.

The service manager at the dealer I brought it to seems to knows about the problem, and asked me what I though, or what the rumor is.  I questionably answered with "the type of gas"... with out saying anything, he seemed to quietly agree.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: coarsegoldkid on June 27, 2010, 04:30:57 PM
Is this tank expansion issue happening in all states.  Some states have different fuels.  I live in California and rarely see ethanol but will stay away from it if possible.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on June 27, 2010, 05:31:23 PM
Is this tank expansion issue happening in all states.  Some states have different fuels.  I live in California and rarely see ethanol but will stay away from it if possible.

Where in California have you not seen ethanol?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: coarsegoldkid on June 27, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
Maybe I haven't been paying attention to the fuel stickers on the pumps.  Maybe there aren't any stickers.  I always figured we didn't have it in our fuel.  So if ethanol is the culprit and it's in all fuel we are all screwed.    No need for steel tanks. Just having a plastic fuel tank doesn't mean plastic tanks are bad.  My BMW tank is plastic and has no issues.  BMW has been using them for years. By the way my friends 1100 Monster has a plastic tank with side covers similar to the BMW I think.  Are these newer tanks also prone to expanding?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 28, 2010, 04:24:26 AM
What coating?

I didn't have the extra $400 so I didn't get it and can't remember the name of it. I'll give the service manager a call and get back to you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on June 28, 2010, 05:43:24 AM
I just discovered that I have the expanding tank problem too.  Rockwell has a new tank on order for me ($2,095) for my S4RS.  I'm on the fence about the coating too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lawbreaker on June 28, 2010, 11:07:48 AM
... Looks like i'll be doing my SECOND warranty based tank swap.  [bang]

The replacement tank i have (replaced 2 yrs ago) is not only deforming on the sides but elongating too.... hitting the latch now.


I'm now in the market for a metal tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on June 28, 2010, 05:14:37 PM
NYLON 6/6 POLYAMIDE  (PA)
ZYTEL® 101F NC010 (Dry) (PA)
DuPont Engineering Polymers / Americas - Polymide 66
General-purpose nylon 6/6 has good toughness, tensile strength, and resistance to creep, particularly in
the high temperature range. Nylon has excellent wear properties. low coefficient of friction, and exceptional
chemical resistance to aromatic hydrocarbons, greases, and oils. Nylon is a hygroscopic material. Moisture
acts as a plasticizer reducing the tensile strength, stiffness, and increasing elongation, impact strength,
and energy absorbing characteristics. Outdoor weathering can be improved by the addition of carbon black.
Nylon will perform well in long range service in most applications at temperatures as high as 185°F (85°C).
Nylon is a translucent off white color.

This sounds like a match, alcohol absorbs water, nylon absorbs water, tanks expand...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 28, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
NYLON 6/6 POLYAMIDE  (PA)
ZYTEL® 101F NC010 (Dry) (PA)
DuPont Engineering Polymers / Americas - Polymide 66
General-purpose nylon 6/6 has good toughness, tensile strength, and resistance to creep, particularly in
the high temperature range. Nylon has excellent wear properties. low coefficient of friction, and exceptional
chemical resistance to aromatic hydrocarbons, greases, and oils. Nylon is a hygroscopic material. Moisture
acts as a plasticizer reducing the tensile strength, stiffness, and increasing elongation, impact strength,
and energy absorbing characteristics. Outdoor weathering can be improved by the addition of carbon black.
Nylon will perform well in long range service in most applications at temperatures as high as 185°F (85°C).
Nylon is a translucent off white color.

This sounds like a match, alcohol absorbs water, nylon absorbs water, tanks expand...

damn


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on June 28, 2010, 06:44:43 PM
I wonder how much water e10 can contain before it becomes obvious.  Ethanol merchants must know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Howie on June 29, 2010, 12:31:53 AM
I can't give you a good scientific answer like Bill (thank you) gave us on the properties of Polymide 66, but from my experience with gasahol in the late '70s and early'80s, a lot [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2010, 03:14:11 AM
I wonder how much water e10 can contain before it becomes obvious.  Ethanol merchants must know.

I have been talking with a lab that is going to examine a tank for me and I asked them this question a while back, I just got their reply in the last week.

E10 gasoline has been demonstrated to retain as much as 1% water (by volume), depending on the ambient temperature.  At a reference of 0 deg F, E10 has been shown to absorb 0.3% whereas at 90 deg F, the amount is as much as 1%.

This doesn't seem like much, but when it is compared to pure gasoline (G100), the percentage volume tops out at about 0.2% water absorption at 90 deg F.  Gasoline with MTBE show similar performance to G100.

I originally assumed the expansion issue was directly related to ethanol penetration, but after learning that PA6 / Nylon 66 has water absorption properties, I can hypothesize how ethanol is actually causing the problem.

Ethanol absorbs water, there is no way around it.

Phase separation is a phenomena which happens when Ethanol "enriched" gasoline sits.  Water present in the fuel mixture literally drags the ethanol out of the mix -- by gravity.  Water is heavier than gasoline and in solution it clings to the ethanol.

As a result, you end up with a pool of water at the bottom of your tank.

My recommendation for everyone is to store your bikes with an empty tank and to regularly use Stabil or similar solution to prevent phase separation.  Some are better than others -- "marine" formulations are just more potent.  Startron and Stabil have both indicated their products should have no problems in a nylon tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 29, 2010, 04:19:11 AM
damn

+1


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on June 29, 2010, 04:57:51 AM
Just got the call from BMW/Ducati of Atlanta - my tank's been approved. Should have it sometime next month.

Debating whether or not to do the Caswell coating, or the Stabil method mentioned above. Maybe both? $400 (Caswell coating parts and labor) seems a bit steep if the results are in doubt.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2010, 05:05:46 AM
You can do the Caswell yourself for about 100 materials.

There are guys on the SC and Multis who did the Caswell over a year ago and still good. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2010, 05:06:57 AM

And that's a rec to do the coating.  Keep your receipts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CTKurt on June 29, 2010, 10:31:00 AM
Me to. 2005 monster s2r dark. It even looks bigger. :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 30, 2010, 07:31:51 AM
For those of you waiting for some movement on this issue, stay tuned...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 30, 2010, 10:24:34 AM
That's the carrot.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 30, 2010, 11:18:03 AM
still waiting on info on my tank, been about 2 weeks almost and no word yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on June 30, 2010, 12:14:43 PM
For those of you waiting for some movement on this issue, stay tuned...


[popcorn]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on June 30, 2010, 01:12:15 PM
Anyone have experience with CA CycleWorks' tanks?
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/ (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/)

Much cheaper when paying out of pocket.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 30, 2010, 07:56:43 PM
i dont, it sounds awesome, but im not particularly for hte looks of it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on July 02, 2010, 05:56:54 AM
For those of you waiting for some movement on this issue, stay tuned...

Waiting with baited breath......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: factorPlayer on July 03, 2010, 02:23:31 PM
Today my buddy who is graciously doing my tail chop in his shop informed my tank is having this.  I had no clue.  Once he pointed it out it was obviously - the tank's frame rests were obviously pushed out.

I had no clue this was going on - I've been out of the loop and really haven't read much on here for awhile though.  Thank god for good bike buddies!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on July 06, 2010, 12:11:03 PM
signed up today. My dealer said no problem getting a replacement. But my problem is that its custom painted. I think I'm going to wait till winter and let it sit for a month and see if it shrinks back, then coat the inside.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 06, 2010, 02:54:01 PM
signed up today. My dealer said no problem getting a replacement. But my problem is that its custom painted. I think I'm going to wait till winter and let it sit for a month and see if it shrinks back, then coat the inside.

It WILL shrink back.

You have to remove the tank, remove all the guts and hang it up to dry for about 1-2-3 months.  Apparently, the tanks that Bologna's gotten back under replacement are all shrunken back to original size.

I cannot say if the condition of the tank is worth a shite though after it has expanded.  It would be NICE if they would shrink back and be 100%.  If so, then coating is the solution.  but you have to make sure it is completely dry, maybe use rice on it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 08:52:55 AM
Just purchased this past week a 2005 Monster S2R 800 with approximately 5400 miles.
At time of purchase, I was aware of the tank issue, which this bike did have.
Long story short, this bike was a good deal that I couldn't pass up.

Just got off the phone today with the service manager of Ducati NY and was advised that Ducati is no longer honoring warranty claims on the tank issues if the tank is just showing typical sighs of expansion.
He further advised that a warranty claim may be covered in cases where the tank is leaking or other extreme no-start issues.

Can anyone advise further.

TIA


Well, just a followup...

Had a a service appointment at Ducati NY today and the service manager didn't budge from his position.

Quote:
"Ducati NA will not cover tank replacement if the tank is not leaking."

I showed him the latch around the ignition, the rubber mounts, the ripples and the handlebar hitting at full locks, left and right.

And asked, have you had customers come in riding their Ducatis with leaking tanks?

He "affirmatively" said "YES" and said you'll be amazed how many still do without a tank replacement [roll]

So I guess its off to Cliff's or Gold Coast.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 08:57:18 AM
Are those guys that lazy? Can someone from DNA please call these idiots?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 09:01:36 AM
Are those guys that lazy? Can someone from DNA please call these idiots?

Maybe he's running a personal record of how many claims he rejects...

The worst part was how he tried to explain it "convincingly"...

"Ducati NA took a bath on these tanks."


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 09:04:11 AM
I guess it's too much effort to take some pictures and fill out the forms.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 09:04:55 AM
Apparently, the tanks that Bologna's gotten back under replacement are all shrunken back to original size.

Wow

Hope they don't turn around and use this as an excuse to deny claims


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 07, 2010, 09:08:49 AM
Maybe he's running a personal record of how many claims he rejects...

The worst part was how he tried to explain it "convincingly"...

"Ducati NA took a bath on these tanks."

I am not sure how an individual service manager is privy to the contractual and legal arrangements that Ducati might have with its supplier(s), nor how he would know precisely how many tanks could be affected -- nor what its cost model/margin could be.  I should start collecting these comments and make a book of them. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 09:15:45 AM
I just find it funny that my local dealer is so willing to take care of these and others are just adamantly against helping.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 07, 2010, 09:43:26 AM
I have a feeling that shop will be getting a phone call soon...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on July 07, 2010, 12:46:00 PM
I just find it funny that my local dealer is so willing to take care of these and others are just adamantly against helping.

+1. I went to Trebour in Ledgewood, NJ.  Good 'ol Joe couldn't have been better.  Got pics taken and a new tank was installed within 2 weeks.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 02:17:27 PM
I just find it funny that my local dealer is so willing to take care of these and others are just adamantly against helping.

You ain't kidding.

I called Cliff's and Gold Coast, they both said bring it in for the service manager to look at.

Guess what I'm doing next week?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 02:37:38 PM
I have a feeling that shop will be getting a phone call soon...

 [clap] [clap] [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on July 07, 2010, 02:41:55 PM
Don't the dealers get paid full retail and labor from Ducati for warranty items? I was always told they do, so they are getting paid for the part and to install it. So what's the problem with some dealers?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 03:24:39 PM
They do get labor. Parts are supplied by the factory. They're just being lazy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on July 07, 2010, 03:30:01 PM
They do get labor. Parts are supplied by the factory. They're just being lazy.
Not true from my info...

keep in mind it makes no difference how DNA does their accounting.

What is important is if they take care of their customers, and from my perspective DNA is doing exactly that.

If you have a suck dealer find a different one.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 05:25:37 PM
Not true from my info...

keep in mind it makes no difference how DNA does their accounting.

What is important is if they take care of their customers, and from my perspective DNA is doing exactly that.

If you have a suck dealer find a different one.

Not sure what your point is. I was not referring to DNA, just that specific dealer. The local service guy told me that DNA is reimbursing the full labor. The tank is provided by the factory so it doesn't cost them a penny. The suck dealer is the one that is lazy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on July 08, 2010, 05:15:03 AM
Those dealers not willing to do it is bull.  The dealer I went to, Modesto Ducati, started the paperwork the same day I brought the bike by.  They almost did it over the phone, but said they had to see it to make sure.  A couple quick glances and some wow that is one of the worse ones I have seen and I was done.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: hankthe8th on July 08, 2010, 12:48:38 PM
Those dealers not willing to do it is bull.  The dealer I went to, Modesto Ducati, started the paperwork the same day I brought the bike by.  They almost did it over the phone, but said they had to see it to make sure.  A couple quick glances and some wow that is one of the worse ones I have seen and I was done.

Wow, glad I found this thread. Happy to see Modesto Ducati is helping out. I'm probably taking mine in on Saturday, I'll have to give them a call. It's warped, but not sure if it's warped enough for replacement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on July 09, 2010, 02:22:15 AM
Not sure what your point is. I was not referring to DNA, just that specific dealer. The local service guy told me that DNA is reimbursing the full labor. The tank is provided by the factory so it doesn't cost them a penny. The suck dealer is the one that is lazy.

The real point is that DNA seems to be making good on the claims, and if the dealer you visit doesn't handle it to your satisfaction simply find another dealer.

A discussion of DNAs accounting methods is pretty much hearsay and irrelevant.

I'd suggest the 'service guy' doesn't have a clue what the dealer statement looks like. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CTKurt on July 09, 2010, 01:43:39 PM
I am the 3rd owner of a 2005 s2r 800. Will DNA still take care of my tank problem? Just bring it into the dealer and they take it from there?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 09, 2010, 02:04:45 PM
I am the 3rd owner of a 2005 s2r 800. Will DNA still take care of my tank problem? Just bring it into the dealer and they take it from there?

I haven't heard anyone even being asked if they are the original owners.  As far as I know, 2nd/3rd owners will be covered.  Kudos to Ducati for that.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducamonsta on July 09, 2010, 04:20:30 PM
Next in line, 2nd owner
My story: today 07/09/10
Stop by my local Ducati dealer, to look for some gear, and tried on a ForceField vest, and the guy that was helping me out works there on the parts/sale.
So he says" you can go ahead and try it on lets go outside sit on your bike ( 05 s2r800) and see how it fits. I said Kool ok, head out sat on the bike . He looks at my DUCA and says I havent seen a yellow s2r around, I am " really," then told him" I want to custom paint it" He started to look for the tank said " You know your tank is expanded" I am " expanded how?"  ???  :o , I am in my mind " how" So he says " yeap these are expanding and if you paint it it will expanded the paint will be warping" kept going" yeah ducati is redesign the tank and working on new materials to build new tanks, so you are going to end up painting 2"

Ok so, I was concerned on my safety that's why I am here posting because Followed everything on the Original position research comments etc. and here I am writing about it!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on July 10, 2010, 01:57:23 PM
@#$%@##!!! my replacement tank is already expanding about a year after it was installed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on July 10, 2010, 04:32:52 PM
@#$%@##!!! my replacement tank is already expanding about a year after it was installed.
I know a guy with a sport classic on his third tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 12, 2010, 02:10:34 AM
I know a guy with a sport classic on his third tank

Amazing how some can get a third tank while some only get grief trying to get their first replacement...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 12, 2010, 02:21:23 AM
It is the dealers.  But it is mostly DNA's fault for not providing more clear guidance.  They are replacing every bad tank but need to provide the dealer network w more clear procedures.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: KTMCHEESE on July 12, 2010, 09:43:58 AM
I was a member here and the DML for many years before selling my S4Rs and jumping ship to KTM. Just to let you guys know, Superdukes also have this expanding gas tank problem. Two days ago I had to hammer a flathead screwdriver between my tank and the steering stem and had to pry that bastard into position in order to get it screwed on. Plastic tanks suck ass....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 12, 2010, 10:38:46 AM
KTM and Ducati might share the same tank provider


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 12, 2010, 11:07:50 AM
KTM and Ducati might share the same tank provider

I would like to confirm that -- if they have the same maker and material, it would be very interesting.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: KTMCHEESE on July 12, 2010, 11:30:50 AM
Superduke tanks are made by Acerbis.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 12, 2010, 04:03:42 PM
Same as Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 13, 2010, 01:12:46 AM
Then the question is whether they are made of the same material.  If anyone has access to one please PM me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 15, 2010, 11:27:06 AM
Guy on the Ducati.ms Sport classic forum recently contacted the NHTSA and spoke to an administrator, who suggested he contact the Fed. Trade Commission. (see "tank probs- yes or no" at pg 63...) He was told the NHTSA can only discuss the problem with Ducati, and monitor them if they are actually working on a fix(ie. replacing tanks).

Also, apparently some of the SC guys are getting used tanks as replacements from Duc. and returning them. Maybe they do contract on the ride back to Italy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kansascity on July 15, 2010, 01:25:59 PM
Anyone have experience with CA CycleWorks' tanks?
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/ (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/)

Much cheaper when paying out of pocket.

CDawg, thank you for posting that link.  Didn't know about that option.  Might have to get one of those some day if this issue persists with the OEM tanks. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 15, 2010, 01:31:15 PM
I wonder who the fellow on .ms talked to at NHTSA ie which Office? 

Plus the FTC would not handle an automotive product defect where there is a possible safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kansascity on July 15, 2010, 01:33:38 PM
FYI - on the Ethanol as a cause, I've got a 07 that just started bulging this summer.    And I've been running a special high test no ethanol specialty fuel that I buy 5 gallons at a time.   As far as I know my bike hasn't had any ethanol gas in it.  



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on July 16, 2010, 03:30:11 AM
My replacement tank is in!
I'm going to test dummy for Rockwell Cycle and try the Caswell coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 16, 2010, 12:35:12 PM
Cdawg when did u file the claim? i havent heard anything yet and its been over a month and a half.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 16, 2010, 01:25:09 PM
Cdawg when did u file the claim? i havent heard anything yet and its been over a month and a half.

and what color?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 16, 2010, 02:03:22 PM
i dont know. my Vin number gives it a silver with black stripe. but they visually saw its black. and my friend got his approved for full black on a 620....but i never got anything.... not sure whats going on. going to call tomorrow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on July 18, 2010, 08:38:28 AM
An interesting post on the Aprilia forum.  One guy said he filled up with AV gas and his (aprilia) tank shrunk overnight...???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 18, 2010, 10:23:35 AM
AV?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 18, 2010, 10:38:22 AM
AV?

aviation

problem with that is that it is leaded, or most of it is..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on July 18, 2010, 10:45:26 AM
aviation

problem with that is that it is leaded, or most of it is..
You concerned about cats or legalities regarding leaded fuel in on road vehicles?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 18, 2010, 11:10:25 AM
You concerned about cats or legalities regarding leaded fuel in on road vehicles?

Well, mainly the cat but if I were a manufacturer and were planning to fight a lawsuit regarding a problem with a gas tank, and I knew people were putting leaded gas into a vehicle which states "UNLEADED" only, I might bring that up and have the lawsuit thrown out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on July 19, 2010, 03:01:12 AM
Got my new tank installed on Saturday from Atlanta BMW/Ducati. Amazing to see what the tank is supposed to look like. I plan on adding stabil with every fill up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vaclav on July 19, 2010, 12:13:26 PM
I just filed with NHTSA and subscribed to  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)  Thanks for the links. Also, I took mine in to the dealer two weeks ago. He had a surprised look on his face but he got his digcam out right away and took pictures of the hinge slots and latch area. I called a week later and he said they were backordered. I called again today (two weeks later) - still backordered. And don't call him, he'll call me. Did anybody get any paperwork given to them when they made their complaint? I have no documentation whatsoever.

I wanted to let you folks know that I have a new tank now. The tank took about five or six weeks to come in. Dealer swapped them the next day. I was given a receipt for service (no charge to me). I had decided to give it six weeks based on what I had read here. I'm glad I was able to be patient (my bike is not my primary transportation). I asked my dealer if he knew of any changes in the structure or composition of the new tanks. He said he had no knowledge of that. I also asked if he recommended coating the inside of the tank. He said no because he was concerned the coating could potentially clog the fuel system. I am not discrediting anyone's research or experiences here; just reporting what he said. For what its worth, my dealer has a good reputation around here from what little I know. Also for what its worth, I have hardly been in there except for buying the bike and the free service I negotiated at the time of purchase so its not like we have the type of relationship where he would give me any inside info.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on July 20, 2010, 03:31:04 AM
2nd tank is growing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 20, 2010, 06:11:34 AM
this is a rant, you dont want to hear it, or your going to complain to me about how i rant blah then dont read it.

background story:

Went with beancounter, erichchang87 to rockwell. Ericchang did NOT bring his 620, but submitted photos via email of his tank. Rockwell cycles took pictures of my tank.

my friends 620 got approved for replacement.

ME ON THE OTHER make the beast with two backsING HAND... for SOME GOD DAMN REASON have to travel my ass 80 miles back there and they want to take more pictures and break out a measuring tool. And they have no explanation for it. I asked why they needed more photos they said, thats just the way it is. I asked why someone else got approved but mine needs to be measured they said, its standard procedure and they dont know why they have to measure mine. I asked if i could just email photos to them. they said no. Suck my balls dude, i dont give a make the beast with two backs ill just ride my shit till the tank starts leaking gas and blows up. Im tired of this shit.

3 make the beast with two backsing dealers and no one can give me a straight answer except goldcoast which was flat out no. Its swollen i cant remove my tank without a screw driver and the damn thing holds 3.5 gallons of gas and half of the tank is so bad the frame doenst even support it.

make the beast with two backs you ducati.

edit: I just called back after pacing around the absurdity of this. I asked that he speak with Nick again to make sure there was no misunderstanding cause id loose about 5 hours of my day to just go there wait for someone to take pics and then come back...anyway, nick told the phone dude that for some reason the photos did not come out....the same camera that was used at the same time to take pictures of beancounters bike did not come out...even though i looked at them on the camera and at the same time after i emailed them, they never got back to me.That just means the warranty issue was never filed since they never had evidence of it.

Before i start badmouthing them, im just going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have a large workload right now and over looked this cause as far as im concerned, i shouldda just stayed working with Goldcoast, atleast they are only 20 miles away and there are no $11 toolbooths between me and them. I would of gone through the same shit anyway.

well anyway, they said NOW i can email them photos.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 20, 2010, 08:40:57 AM
That's the problem with dealer with a dealer that is so far away. Thankfully they see me pretty regularly, so my claim was not put on the backburner, plus it helps that the service guy is on the ball.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on July 23, 2010, 09:56:42 AM
I was a member here and the DML for many years before selling my S4Rs and jumping ship to KTM. Just to let you guys know, Superdukes also have this expanding gas tank problem. Two days ago I had to hammer a flathead screwdriver between my tank and the steering stem and had to pry that bastard into position in order to get it screwed on. Plastic tanks suck ass....

Ah.  Now I see why you mentioned this to me at dinner Isaac.  The tanks on the SD's are not actually known for swelling; they are just a STUPID tight fit from the factory.  Every SD's tank is like that, and they have been documented as being incredibly difficult to fit at the factory, before there has ever been fuel in tank. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 06, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Just more uselesss news and updates.

emailed Rockwell twice after they took pics. no response. I called, they said they lost the pics. so i emailed them new pics. no reply. emailed them again. no reply. called, left msg, called again, spoke to someone and they said someone would call me back 2 days ago.

no word on what the situation is. Really i could care less if the gas spills everywhere and it catches on fire. so as long as im not on the bike. more reason for me to go after DNA for money to buy a new bike. this is just ridiculous.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 06, 2010, 12:37:39 PM
DNA has nothing to do with Rockwell's issues. If anything you should be contacting the BBB.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 06, 2010, 12:46:49 PM
ofcourse, the issue here is i cant find a dealer whos even willingly to submit the claim.


What blows is, i went with a group of 3.  One of the guys didnt even have the bike with him, and he just emailed the photos and got it approved.

The other 2 (including myself) cant even get a call back and we were there with our bikes, they snapped the photos and lost them, never contacted us until months later when we inquried about the issue.

And theres many other members on this very forum that said rockwell helped them out. so what gives? I'm courteous to them, i gave them all the time they needed and we spoke for a good 30 minutes just chatting and hanging out. its not like i rubbed them the wrong way.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 06, 2010, 01:05:19 PM
Sorry to say that you might want to go there again and camp out until they snap the photos and put in the claim right there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: poseur on August 06, 2010, 06:26:42 PM
I suggest you craft a detailed letter explaining everything that happened (and also what it is exactly that you'd like them to do) and send it to Ducati North America, as well as Ducati in Italy.  Also send a copy to whomever it is that owns/manages Rockwell.

If that doesn't work, there must be other legal avenues.

I can't believe you've been treated so poorly by the chumps at Rockwell though. They seem to be as shady as Pro-Italia in Glendale California: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=92958 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=92958)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 07, 2010, 04:03:27 AM
9 month old tank starting to swell again..... [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2010, 04:44:16 AM
Have you used any treatment like Stabil or Startron?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 07, 2010, 04:51:04 AM
Have you used any treatment like Stabil or Startron?

Nope.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 08:48:15 AM
When I bought my S4Rt a few weeks ago I brought it in to the dealer to get an inspection sticker. While I was there I mentioned that the tank looked a little suspicious so they took a few photos and submitted the claim. My new tank is in route now.

FYI-The dealer told me that the problems we are experiencing with the tanks is because of the ethanol in the fuel and not likely to stop any time soon. So my question is, why is Ducati responsible for replacing tanks because of the shitty fuel our government is making us use.
 Additionally they told me the problem is not just with Ducati tanks. They have seen it on Aprilia, Guzzi, and every other brand with plastic tanks.

I have to be honest, if I was DNA I would be looking into a lawsuit with the U.S. government. Why should they have to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars in replacment tanks because of the fuel they make us use?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 07, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
Who knows whats going on over at ducati.

Once i get my tank, im throwing it on the shelf, and installing a metal tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on August 07, 2010, 08:51:33 AM
Just picked up my bike with new tank today.

Don't want to read through 48 pages of posts but saw the Caswell tank sealer mentioned on page 47. I was considering that for my new tank. Caswell says it will not stick to polyethelyne...Is that what the Monster tanks are made of??

Any success or failures on the list with the Caswell?

TIA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 08:57:24 AM
So I just posted my experience with my expanding fuel tank in the other thread.

My dealer has been more than helpful and my new tank is on the way. They explained the problem is caused by the ethanol in the fuel and not likely to stop anytime soon. They also mentioned that it is a recurring problem with any plastic fuel tank. So, whats going to happen when all the cars/trucks on the road start having the same problem because of the ethanol? I'd be willing to bet it already happening but because the fuel tanks on cars and trucks are underneath it goes un-noticed.

I'm curious, isn't there anything we can seal our tanks with that will help us avoid this problem? The distributer I get my paint from sells POR 15 and I asked them about it. They actually called the manufacturer and asked and they said it "may work, but they can't guarantee it"

 I don't want to have the same problem with my new tank so anyone have any ideas?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kopfjäger on August 07, 2010, 09:00:07 AM
I don't think POR 15 will help with expansion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arjay26 on August 07, 2010, 09:00:43 AM
I took my '08 M695 to Hattar Motorsports in San Rafael, CA for a basic check-up.  Eric, the svc mgr took one look at my tank and called it "pregnant" -- without another word he filled out paperwork to order me a new tank under warrantee.  He recommended that I coat the inside to the tune of $235, which I opted for.  He said it should take 2 weeks for the new tank to arrive.

It all seems to be going quite smoothly for me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2010, 09:01:01 AM
Just picked up my bike with new tank today.

Don't want to read through 48 pages of posts but saw the Caswell tank sealer mentioned on page 47. I was considering that for my new tank. Caswell says it will not stick to polyethelyne...Is that what the Monster tanks are made of??

Any success or failures on the list with the Caswell?

TIA

The Ducati tanks are Nylon 6/6 or Polyamide-6.  Lance Caswell says they will stick just fine. 

MTS owners have been using the Caswell now for about a year, no problems of which I am aware and I am following several folks who have this on their tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 09:13:56 AM
Well the idea was to seal the tank so the ethanol wouldn't dissolve the plastic. Maybe POR 15 isn't the answer but there must be something else.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kopfjäger on August 07, 2010, 09:18:18 AM
Well the idea was to seal the tank so the ethanol wouldn't dissolve the plastic. Maybe POR 15 isn't the answer but there must be something else.

Gotcha. Try giving them a call and see if it's safe to use on plastic. I know Nate has used it in CF tanks in the past.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 09:31:08 AM
I google search for "fuel tank sealer" yielded this:

http://www.kbs-coatings.com/cycle-tank-sealer-plus-kit.html (http://www.kbs-coatings.com/cycle-tank-sealer-plus-kit.html)

 I'm going to call them on Monday and see what they have to say.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2010, 10:37:00 AM
The problem isn't a direct ethanol:plastic issue.

The problem is that the tanks are made from Nylon 6/6, which -- according to every manufacturer of it -- absorbs water UNLESS treated or coated.

Acerbis did not treat or coat their tanks for Ducati (or anyone else).  There was no reasonable expectation that people would be putting water into their gas tanks, however, additive ethanol which is in pretty much every gallon of gas in the USA wicks moisture from the air at a rate 10-20 times that of E0 (0% ethanol). 

So the problem is caused by E10 gasoline, but not due to a direct interaction of the ethanol and the tanks.  Most accurately, it is due to a behavior of Ethanol interacting with the tank.

I am familiar with POR, but I don't know if it will stick to nylon/polyamide properly.  I know of several (currently 5) multistrada owners who have had the Caswell product in a tank for at least a year or more without any issues. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: MotoCreations on August 07, 2010, 11:46:18 AM
POR-15 doesn't bond correctly with the nylon.  Mainly due to not being able to "etch" the inner surface enough to bond correctly.

Interesting discovery with the expanding tank issues.  If you drain the tank and put somewhere so air blows through the tank, after a few months it will reshape back to normal.  As some dealerships have discovered, the batch of tanks to be returned aren't as bad as when first removed. Thus maybe one should just have a pair of tanks and swap them every six months perhaps?

Upcoming the EU gets our ethanol mixture of fuel.  Thus it will be interesting what happens in Europe.

I just gave up on the Sport Classic tank expansion issues -- thus doing it in carbonfiber and resolve the problem once and for all.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on August 07, 2010, 12:19:12 PM
the marine industry is experiencing similar issues with E-10 (according to a friend, no FHE) and some are using this product.

Star Tron (http://mystarbrite.com/startron//content/view/12/34/lang,en/)

I just heard about it, and am going to research a bit and then decide. Anyone else heard of this product?

edit: apparently its kind of $$$$


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 07, 2010, 01:37:11 PM
fuel additives are not the answer. Your cost of gasoline sky rockets if you need to add something to yuor tank every time.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on August 07, 2010, 02:58:50 PM
Thanx , I need to seal an old Bevel fiberglass tank so I think I'll order enough Caswell to do 2 tanks and do the new Monster tank too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: silversled on August 07, 2010, 03:44:05 PM
I was alternating between two nylon tanks until I realized the madness. 

My 2.0 solution is a 2005 era steel tank!  I'm done with this expansion crap.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4870567882_0e49264819.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Triple J on August 07, 2010, 06:43:45 PM
I've had good luck with my 2004 Multi tank...and Multi owners are having the same problems as Monster and SC owners.

I used to ride it daily, so the E10 fuel never had enough time to sit and absorb water. I went through a tank per week easy.

Now that I don't ride it daily, I either use fuel stabilizer (prevents the ethanol from separating, thus making water absorption less likely)...or usually I just empty the tank completely (no fuel = no water).

This strategy seems to be working so far, as I have no tank expansion problems. there are plenty of people with replaced tanks that are newer than mine.

Also, I live on the west coast where humidity levels are relatively low. Anyone notice if the more humid parts of the country are experiencing more problems? It would make sense if water absorption is the culprit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on August 07, 2010, 07:00:35 PM
I've had good luck with my 2004 Multi tank...and Multi owners are having the same problems as Monster and SC owners.

I used to ride it daily, so the E10 fuel never had enough time to sit and absorb water. I went through a tank per week easy.

Now that I don't ride it daily, I either use fuel stabilizer (prevents the ethanol from separating, thus making water absorption less likely)...or usually I just empty the tank completely (no fuel = no water).

This strategy seems to be working so far, as I have no tank expansion problems. there are plenty of people with replaced tanks that are newer than mine.

Also, I live on the west coast where humidity levels are relatively low. Anyone notice if the more humid parts of the country are experiencing more problems? It would make sense if water absorption is the culprit.

I had expansion with my 695, west coast, rode daily and filled tank every 1-2 days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on August 07, 2010, 08:50:32 PM
Thus maybe one should just have a pair of tanks and swap them every six months perhaps?

I bought a second tank for custom paint, didn't want to lose the stock tank.  Complete with fuel pump, cap and fittings it is not too bad to swap.  Being able to let the stock tank sit with the cap open and breath for a while is a nice side effect. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Grappa on August 07, 2010, 10:30:26 PM
This may perhaps be a viable option, though a little expensive...

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)


No FHE as my moto was a 2001, steel tank, but the aluminum tank is on my list of ultimate WANTS for my next bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 08, 2010, 06:50:41 AM
I thought the discussion on plastic tanks in the sticky thread was pretty comprehensive.

Silly me. [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 08, 2010, 06:54:28 AM
<snip> i shouldda just stayed working with Goldcoast, atleast they are only 20 miles away and there are no $11 toolbooths between me and them. I would of gone through the same shit anyway.

well anyway, they said NOW i can email them photos.
Pretty sure that was suggested when you went on a rant about Goldcoast.

Have you ever considered the possibility that it's you...

and not the multiple dealers that others have good experiences with?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 08, 2010, 12:49:25 PM
Have you ever considered the possibility that it's you...

and you say I dont read  ;D, seriously though, i did, 2 pages back.

Just to get more detailed, i chatted with him for a good 30 mins about various stuff, and he was super chill. We were mostly talking about the 1098 he was workign on, and the oil spill in the gulf since it was kinda fresh in the news. I even spoke to the secretary for a bit and joked with her. I'm pretty sure she would remember me purely because of my last name. Also bought some stuff from the parts guy who did not have a nice attitude, just kina "in at 9 out at 5" kinda guy.

Thats why I had just a positive post about rockwell when i submitted my claim with them.

maybe it is me, and if it is, they shouuld tell me wats wrong casue i dont have a clue.

<joke hat>
my last resort is to show up with my friends platnium AMEX and wave it around, buy a new pair of gloves and shwo interest in buying a new bike.
</joke hat>



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on August 08, 2010, 01:57:29 PM

maybe it is me, and if it is, they shouuld tell me wats wrong casue i dont have a clue.


Easy
You probably show up looking like a kid to them (aka not a customer).
You have a bike that's been down like-6, 7 times, and want a shiny new tank.
Probably an attitude of being tired of all this, as well as one that you're actually owed a new tank.
And after chasing one of these for months, I'm sure your first reaction is t9 be extra patient, no?


No one else has had this much trouble. No one else has had the same issues with the dealers you've gone to (least, not all of 'em).

It's you dude. Drop whatever attitude you're bringing, put on some nice clothes, see how much better life can be.

Wash the bike, too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 08, 2010, 02:08:36 PM
Wash the bike, too.

Dave?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 08, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
Dave's not here, man


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 08, 2010, 07:35:52 PM
Mr. I thanks for telling me i dress like shit. Maybe i should show up in some Bannana Republic dress shirts, pants and shoes instead of my cheap Underamor and Teknic gear and off brand AXO boots.

I got a thick skin to shurg off offensive shit and I'll take constructive critisism to heart and work on it. As much as DP thinks im a douchebag, he will atleast PM me and tell me why he doenst like my attitude. No one likes being told that they need an attitude adjustment and you cant please everyone. but for you to tell me i dress like  a poor make the beast with two backs and ontop of that, that i cant afford nicer gear.....Sorry, I dont have money like you. heres me being 22, not 18 and walking away from this. Theres a bunch of people I actually like on this forum, and I dont feel like getting banned.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 09, 2010, 01:47:52 AM
Everybody lighten up and put their feelings and off-topic opinions back into their purses.

Tanks are explodin' and pregnant dogin' about other stuff won't help.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 09, 2010, 03:30:50 AM
I thought the discussion on plastic tanks in the sticky thread was pretty comprehensive.

Silly me. [roll]

 Except that it's 50 feakin' pages long!

 I spent some time reading through it but I didn't see anything mentioned regarding sealing the tank. Thats why I started the new thread. Thanks for combining it though. That was a great help.  [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 09, 2010, 03:38:48 AM
Except that it's 50 feakin' pages long!

 I spent some time reading through it but I didn't see anything mentioned regarding sealing the tank. Thats why I started the new thread. Thanks for combining it though. That was a great help.  [roll]

There is plenty about sealing the tank, the general consensus is that Caswell will work.  Sorry it's so long, maybe I'll update the first post with some general info soon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 09, 2010, 03:50:53 AM
Except that it's 50 feakin' pages long!

 I spent some time reading through it but I didn't see anything mentioned regarding sealing the tank. Thats why I started the new thread. Thanks for combining it though. That was a great help.  [roll]
I didn't...

evidently another admin agreed with me.

I'm really sorry you don't have the time to read everyone else input.

Maybe everyone with a plastic tank problem should start their own thread. :-*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 09, 2010, 03:56:53 AM
I didn't...

evidently another admin agreed with me.

I'm really sorry you don't have the time to read everyone else input.

Maybe everyone with a plastic tank problem should start their own thread. :-*

 HA!  [laugh]

 I was relating my own experience. Sorry, what was I thinking.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 04:21:45 AM
Back on subject. To discuss the additives, I've been using Star Tron every time I park the bike. I only need to use a cap full per tank if it's going to sit for more than a day, so it's not that expensive. If thr EU wil start using E-10 soon, then we'll probably see Acerbis forced to coat their tanks, since the European manufacturers will most likely put pressure on them.

For the time being, I only see 3 solutions:

1) Buy a none plastic tank
2) Use the additives
3) Coat the tanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on August 09, 2010, 07:55:53 AM
It is too bad that

4. Tell the ethanol cartel/gas companies/gubmint to FIX their F'n fuel.

is not an option.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 08:19:40 AM
Please no political content. It wouldn't do to have this thread locked when it's one of the most important issues affecting our bikes today.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on August 09, 2010, 09:54:15 AM
This one won't get locked.   And there's already class action suits in ca due to the effect the fuel has in tanks in boats. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 09, 2010, 11:08:31 AM
This one won't get locked.   And there's already class action suits in ca due to the effect the fuel has in tanks in boats. 

 In Florida too, or so I've read. If memory serves, they are not sueing because of what the fuel does to the tanks but the lack of warning when they started selling the fuel. Or something like that.  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on August 09, 2010, 11:52:34 AM
My package from caswells came in the mail today hopefully ill get time this week to take the tank up to my  shop and get it done. Ill let you guys know what i think of it


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 12:14:17 PM
Can you please document the whole procedure? I would be very interested is seeing someone like a "how to".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 09, 2010, 12:37:48 PM
Can you please document the whole procedure? I would be very interested is seeing someone like a "how to".
I've used the caswell product...

I'd be glad to discuss it offline.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on August 09, 2010, 01:39:00 PM
Back on subject. To discuss the additives, I've been using Star Tron every time I park the bike. I only need to use a cap full per tank if it's going to sit for more than a day, so it's not that expensive. If thr EU wil start using E-10 soon, then we'll probably see Acerbis forced to coat their tanks, since the European manufacturers will most likely put pressure on them.

For the time being, I only see 3 solutions:

1) Buy a none plastic tank
2) Use the additives
3) Coat the tanks

thanks for the input on Star Tron. I may give it a try until I am rid of the plastic tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
Stabil also has a marine product for e10 which is more widely available.  I get it at advance auto. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 01:58:35 PM
I've used the caswell product...

I'd be glad to discuss it offline.

I might just take you up on that offer when I have more $$$ available


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 09, 2010, 03:44:54 PM
Stabil also has a marine product for e10 which is more widely available.  I get it at advance auto. 
Most Walmarts have the Startron.

It works to keep the fuel from causing running issues. No idea if it will keep the tanks from expanding.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 09, 2010, 04:43:59 PM
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm) ? same one? ( no  i didnt search through all 50+ pages)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 10, 2010, 11:45:00 AM
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm) ? same one? ( no  i didnt search through all 50+ pages)

 It states it "bonds to almost anything except polyethylene" aren't our tanks polyethylene?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 10, 2010, 12:21:35 PM
No.  Nylon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 10, 2010, 01:01:46 PM
It states it "bonds to almost anything except polyethylene" aren't our tanks polyethylene?

i think CA-cycleworks tanks are polyethylene. apparently not even paint sticks to it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 11, 2010, 02:28:10 PM
Let me know if you want me to get you in touch with owners of either current gen SBK or SF, as a couple of guys I rode with down in Hawaii are going through this now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 11, 2010, 02:36:22 PM
Just made my second claim  :(  I wish I had the dough to buy the aluminun one and get it over with.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 11, 2010, 02:37:44 PM
Just made my second claim  :(  I wish I had the dough to but the aluminun one and get it over with

Yea, I'm on my third tank now, and noticed that it had already started to pimple a few days ago...  Tank number four coming to a theater near you...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Desert Dust on August 14, 2010, 02:44:24 PM
I just received word from my dealer that my tank (07 S2R 1K) would be replaced due to expansion. Will the problem be resolved?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on August 15, 2010, 08:56:27 AM
I'd say not really. You'll get a new tank, but it will be the same as the old one.  :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on August 16, 2010, 04:07:30 AM
I'm in the club now too. The local dealer has been awesome so far, knew the issue, took the photos and already ordered the new tank. Looking into coating options as I type...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 16, 2010, 01:58:48 PM
aha! Got an email out of no where from Nick at Rockwell Cycles,  I was starting to loose my faith in them, but they came through!

New tank is en route!!! Nick was kind enough to submit me for a red one. So no more black and gold for me. and no more pirate skulls.

(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=550&g2_serialNumber=2)
 

Not sure when it will come in, but regardless of that fact, i will pick it up after my track day and remove it for coating with the caswell stuff immediately. Is there any report on the caswell stuff? does it work? No more having to break out 90 different tools just to  get my tank off. however i will miss the expanded tanks capacity, i was getting over 3.5 gallons of fuel if i ran the light +15 or so miles.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 16, 2010, 02:09:04 PM
Caswell is a go.  I am trying to get them to certify it will stick to our nylon tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 16, 2010, 04:55:49 PM
Caswell is a go.  I am trying to get them to certify it will stick to our nylon tanks.
Cool! I have a new tank coming too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 21, 2010, 12:24:34 PM
Looks like the new Aprilias are having this same problem as well...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211397 (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211397)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on August 25, 2010, 11:46:44 AM
Just applied my coating yesterday its cured today. Its a pretty stout compound i poured a test section on a dirty shop table and after 24 hours set time had to razor blade it off. Once off i i noticed it has a degree of flexibility to it seems it would hold up to a crash. The application instructions were pretty spot on but i had to clean my tank several times to get it all the way clean. I used acetone the 1st cleaning but used brake parts cleaner the subsequent cleanings to reduce the chance of damage to the paint and the tank. I'm not recommending anyone use brake clean it may have side effects depending on the chemicals your brand contains may cause adhesion issues or plastic parts to become brittle. I had to repeat the cleaning due to an oil like substance i would find traces of in the tank. Gasoline reside possibly but it had no odor. Following a dish soap cleaning and a 12 hour drying period aided with compressed air I applied the caswells coating its very honey like in appearance and texture. Take your time and roll the tank around slowly i had about 15 to 20 min working time i spent 20 minutes emptying the mixture out as it begins to get very thick. Over all not a fun thing to do but im feeling better having done it and well see how it holds up


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2010, 12:01:45 PM
I believe there are instructions for thinning the Caswell's product.  MEK is what they recommend, but double check with them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on August 25, 2010, 12:06:26 PM
They did have some alternate ways to thin the compound for increasing the working time and splitting between two tanks. I wanted to keep it simple to minimize my clumsiness from screwing up the compound


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on August 26, 2010, 09:37:41 AM
My second tank on my Monster showing pimples now (center of pic) - I've had this new one for about 13 months now:

(http://i36.tinypic.com/350rt4y.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 26, 2010, 09:50:13 AM
I find that my tank shrinks a bit if im on long trips where i fill up multiple times.

then i found out i can just shave my tank to get it look smooth again. my first attempt did not go so well. i will try again later.

(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1308&g2_serialNumber=2)

you think they will reject me? They already approved and ordered my tank...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2010, 12:16:15 PM
I find that my tank shrinks a bit if im on long trips where i fill up multiple times.

then i found out i can just shave my tank to get it look smooth again. my first attempt did not go so well. i will try again later.

(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1308&g2_serialNumber=2)

you think they will reject me? They already approved and ordered my tank...

LOL!!!

You crack me up

No, the tank's defect was presented and approved before the damage. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 28, 2010, 04:53:21 AM
Added some research links to the first post.  here they are:

The last PA6 note mentions that PA6 can absorb moisture to 8% of its weight, and that's from a manufacturer of PA6 parts.

Footnotes:
On Nylon 6/PA6
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract)
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm (http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/)
http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6 (http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6)

On Ethanol adsorption of water
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/)
http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml (http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 30, 2010, 04:09:07 AM
Here's an interesting little tidbit of info for you guys....

I just got off the phone with Craig at Caswell. During my discussion he mentioned they have sold some of their fuel tank sealer to DNA for testing and that they were "very pleased" with the result. So I ask you, does that mean that DNA is planning on sealing our tanks with the Caswell sealer prior to shipping out the tanks for warranty replacement? That would make sense wouldn't it? Some people have mentioned having to have their tank replaced more than once and at over $2K per tank this has to be getting expensive for Ducati. I would think a $40 fuel tank sealer kit from Caswell would be a great way to insure that the replacment tank wouldn't have the same problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 30, 2010, 04:15:38 AM
I'm not sure that the tanks go through DNA. From what I understood, they come straight from Italy to the dealer. DNA might ask the dealers to apply it. Some dealers are impossible to simply have them put in the warranty request, let alone ask them to apply an additional coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 30, 2010, 05:41:55 AM
Here's an interesting little tidbit of info for you guys....

I just got off the phone with Craig at Caswell. During my discussion he mentioned they have sold some of their fuel tank sealer to DNA for testing and that they were "very pleased" with the result. So I ask you, does that mean that DNA is planning on sealing our tanks with the Caswell sealer prior to shipping out the tanks for warranty replacement? That would make sense wouldn't it? Some people have mentioned having to have their tank replaced more than once and at over $2K per tank this has to be getting expensive for Ducati. I would think a $40 fuel tank sealer kit from Caswell would be a great way to insure that the replacment tank wouldn't have the same problem.

The coating (or some coating very similar) would be applied at the time of manufacture.  Even $40/tank is high.  If it is possible to include it as the last stage of roto-molding, then the per-tank cost drops to materials only and probably absurdly cheap, esp compared to replacing the tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 30, 2010, 07:43:07 AM
The coating (or some coating very similar) would be applied at the time of manufacture.  Even $40/tank is high.  If it is possible to include it as the last stage of roto-molding, then the per-tank cost drops to materials only and probably absurdly cheap, esp compared to replacing the tanks.

 Exactly. Also, the Caswell kit will do 2 almost 3 of our tanks so even though $40 is a lot for DNA or the dealer to absorb it would be less in quantity.

IMO Ducati should do something other than just keep replacing tanks becasue of the shitty fuel we are required to buy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on August 31, 2010, 02:02:10 PM
Tank update - San Antonio - After KCI closed shop with my new tank "on order", I finally visited the new Ducati dealership in San Antonio. I explained the situation with KCI and that the tank had apparently been OK'ed for a replacement previously, so they wrote it up and took more pictures to submit to DNA. They said they would be in touch with me as soon as they heard back from DNA.
Hopefully this time I will get a new tank, as the old one is really swelling bad and it's a pregnant dog to unlatch the tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 02, 2010, 09:43:36 AM
<snip>
IMO Ducati should do something other than just keep replacing tanks becasue of the shitty fuel we are required to buy.
It seems they're doing the best they can...things take time and Ducati isn't going to spend whatever the cost to coat tanks until they have proof it will solve the problem.

Remember DNA doesn't design the motorcycle...just import and support.

I'm certain that this is costing everyone involved an everyone would like a permanent solution.

Why not talk to your representative about changing the regs regarding fuel?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 02, 2010, 12:57:28 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 02, 2010, 01:12:36 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?
100 octane would most likely carbon up the duc


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on September 02, 2010, 01:16:12 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?

Low lead sounds uh, unhealthy....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on September 02, 2010, 03:05:34 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?
Likely ruin your o2 sensor


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 02, 2010, 11:19:33 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?

Might cause dogs and cats to sleep together.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 03:20:15 AM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?

probably get it impounded while you stay in jail.

$6.50/gallon near me.  probably cheaper to coat the tank over the long run

Regular pump gas is $2.52 down the street.  $4/gallon premium?  the tank treatment is only $40.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 03, 2010, 04:31:44 AM
Has anyone asked Caswell if we can get a good deal in a group buy?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 04:47:57 AM
Has anyone asked Caswell if we can get a good deal in a group buy?

nope, i think they do sell it in larger quantities, problem is reshipping it.  i imagine you could buy a bunch of the motorcycle kits tho.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 03, 2010, 05:02:27 AM
Lead and o2 sensor- maybe.
Note on caswell: applied it to the norton F-glass tank, must have missed a spot as the ethane fuel kept on attacking it, varnishing up the carbs,head. So application is very important, maybe employing a roto spinning jig thingie or something. The stuff does make a nice coating inside.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 05:17:05 AM
Lead and o2 sensor- maybe.
Note on caswell: applied it to the norton F-glass tank, must have missed a spot as the ethane fuel kept on attacking it, varnishing up the carbs,head. So application is very important, maybe employing a roto spinning jig thingie or something. The stuff does make a nice coating inside.

You have to keep turning the tank when you put it in. Thin it just a bit with MEK (double check that) and keep turning it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 03, 2010, 07:42:58 AM
So finally, how many tanks can you coat with 1 kit?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 09:28:09 AM
So finally, how many tanks can you coat with 1 kit?

probably as many as 3 with the monster pea tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 03, 2010, 09:40:00 AM
Thanks. I have the owner of Shift-Tech saying that it can barely coat 1. He probably hasn't had to do it on his own bikes. I presume that it's 3 after you thin it out, right?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 09:47:33 AM
The website says up to a 10gal tank!

Thinning it doesn't reduce the volume needed.  It just makes it easier to use.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 03, 2010, 03:03:26 PM
Thinning it doesn't reduce the volume needed. It just makes it easier to use.
IMO...

that is one problem with the Caswell product.

It is not user friendly as packaged.

I also question the process for rusty steel tanks, but that is another topic that doesn't apply for plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 04, 2010, 03:02:20 AM
You have to keep turning the tank when you put it in. Thin it just a bit with MEK (double check that) and keep turning it.
We used half the kit and rotated it for close to an hour (3 beer count). Unthinned. Thought the coating was complete. Recently rinsed out with MEK. Seems good now. The monster tanks will be easier- if it sticks, should get 2 tanks out of a kit. BTW- the norton tank had gas inside since 1969, and seems to have accepted the coating well after degreasing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 04, 2010, 07:57:37 AM
I bought the Caswell "Car" kit, "1 quart". IMO it was a bit confusing. The box it came in said "1  Pint kit" yet there was a sticker on the front of the box that read "Car kit". I called to make sure I had the right size that I had paid for...I did.

Anyway I have had my S2R1000 tank replaced about 6 weeks ago. I had purchased a used tank off a guy on the old DML probably in '07' ? I started to sand it back then and well, you know how that goes.

So anyway I thought that it would be wise to Caswell the new Monster tank but also thought it would be a good idea to "practice" on the used tank since I needed to repaint it anyway. At the same time I am putting a fiberglass tank for one of my GTs into service that I had bought from Syd's Cycles in the mid 90's. Never been used yet.

I cleaned the Monster tank out first as directed...Don't be as stupid as I was and followed the instructions to put drywall screws in the tank when you wash it out with Dawn detergent and hot water. I used #6 x 1" drywall screws, about a small handful. What a nightmare getting those out, what with the plastic coated hoses running through the Monster tank. Ended up using a bent welding rod to pry some out. (One even showed up while I was sloshing the Caswell around during application). The reason they have you put them in there is to "roughen up" the surface so the product sticks well...The screws did no roughening up that I could see...just a nightmare and waste of time. Needless to say, I skipped that step when cleaning the GT tank.

So I did add 1 oz. of lacquer thinner as suggested. I mixed the product in Pyrex measuring cup, using a silicone spatula that I picked up at WalMart for less than $2. I mixed per instructions and that went well. I split the product between the two tanks and rotated one, set it aside, rotated the other set it aside, back and forth until the products was solidifing pretty well. When I set one tank down to pick up the other, I changed sides that were resting on the floor. In other words, first time I would set it on its base, next time on its top, next time on its side...etc. I would occassionslly pick up the Pyrex measuring cup and roll what remained in it to see how it was curing. I'd bet that I was doing that process for well over an hour. They tell you to pour out the remaining product...Well I had rotated the tanks so long that I barely had a couple of drops run out. Set them aside over night but first cut off any excess sealer while it was pretty well set-up. This was more on the GT tank than the Monster, Mostly around the filler neck.

BTW, I had cut out and attached to the tank a 1/16" thick aluminum plate that fit over the fuel pump opening. I have a CAD drawing that can be printed out (Full Scale !) and used as a glue-on template to use for making a cover (PM me if you want the template drawing and I will email it to you). I fastened this to the opening with the stock screws but had to stack washers to get a tight fit. When I do it for my replacement Monster tank I will cut a cork gasket to go between the tank and the aluminum cover as using just the aluminum, some sealer leaked out during the rotating process. My template is a full circle so you do have to trim part of the circle off to clear a curve in the tank...this cut is not shown on my template drawing.

Overall the process was pretty pain free. Seems like I have a nice, tight, full coverage coating on both tanks...and still have enough left to do two more tanks.

Time will tell if the sealer does what it is supposed to.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 05, 2010, 12:42:14 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 05, 2010, 01:46:21 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.
I ran that thought through my mind too and I have not yet coated my warranty replacement tank but I do plan to. Here is my reasoning:

If the Caswell works, I will not need another (2nd) warranty replacement. If it does not and the 2nd replacement tank swells, by the time Ducati would get the 2nd bad tank (for physical inspection), I would already have the 3rd replacement on the bike.

When they checked my bad tank at the dealership, all they did was look at it from the outside and took photos. Even if they would open the cap and look inside, the Caswell sealer is glass clear and would, most likely, not be noticed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 05, 2010, 08:31:50 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.

Exactly why would it void the warranty? They would have to prove that the Caswell coating was the cause of the swelling


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 05, 2010, 10:05:11 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.

yeah, everyone (incl me) that has had a tank replaced, it was only an external inspection.  i could have filled my tank with toulene for all they knew (i didn't)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on September 05, 2010, 01:22:01 PM
i may just enjoy the silver lining in this tank problem...

every time i have to replace my tank (haven't had to yet) I will try out a new color [thumbsup]

much cheaper than constantly repainting it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 06, 2010, 02:22:02 AM
i may just enjoy the silver lining in this tank problem...

every time i have to replace my tank (haven't had to yet) I will try out a new color [thumbsup]

much cheaper than constantly repainting it.
I'm sure that your post is tongue in cheek...but the only reason Ducati HAS to replace the tanks after the standard 2 year warranty is that the tank is considered part of the emissions system and by govt. mandate, that must be covered for 5 years.

So, that said, I don't think (though I may be in error here) that once your bike is 5 years old, the tank could grow as big as a house and Ducati would be under no obligation to replace it. I see no reason not to use the Caswell "solution". I'm just hoping that it really is a solution not just a waste of my time and money...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 06, 2010, 07:51:04 AM
I'm sure that your post is tongue in cheek...but the only reason Ducati HAS to replace the tanks after the standard 2 year warranty is that the tank is considered part of the emissions system and by govt. mandate, that must be covered for 5 years.

So, that said, I don't think (though I may be in error here) that once your bike is 5 years old, the tank could grow as big as a house and Ducati would be under no obligation to replace it. I see no reason not to use the Caswell "solution". I'm just hoping that it really is a solution not just a waste of my time and money...

5 years OR ~18,000 miles, whichever comes first.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rustoric on September 09, 2010, 07:35:50 AM
Went out and had a look at my new (to me) 695's tank, sure enough it was badly expanded, the right mount barely touches the frame and there's a 1/4 inch gap between the ignition and black cover.  I signed up for the group, filled out the survey and the NHTSA report.

I just got back from Ducati Miami who were super cool about it. Rudolf (think he was a manager) came out, took some pictures and had me fill out the form, if it's in stock they'll have it in about a week, if not 2-3.

Just wanted to thank Ducatiz and DMF or i probably wouldn't have known anything was wrong right past the warranty period


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 09, 2010, 08:21:10 AM
Bike is in getting the tank replaced now, should have it back tomorrow. Of course it's one of the most beautiful riding days of the year...

One annoying thing is that I asked the dealer if I could have the tank for a few days before they put it on to coat it with the Caswell product. They said no, I explained that the issue is just going to happen again and that I'd like to avoid the hassle. They said that "the new tanks don't have the same problem".

I hate when people try to blow smoke up my ass. If they weren't so close I would have taken it somewhere else.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 09, 2010, 08:27:59 AM
Tha's just not right.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on September 09, 2010, 10:51:14 AM
Tell them to put just enough gas in it to get you home. Ride home. Remove tank. Empty tank. Allow to dry. Proceed to coat tank. Fit tank and refill with gas. Ride bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 09, 2010, 10:55:20 AM
That's definitely the plan over the winter.

Is there a write-up on what all needs to be removed before coating?

*hits search button frantically*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 09, 2010, 12:06:42 PM
That's definitely the plan over the winter.

Is there a write-up on what all needs to be removed before coating?

*hits search button frantically*

Ain't much there to remove. Once you get the tank off, which is very easy due to the quick release connestions and the clip that holds the pivot pin in, (Oh, I would first suggest that you siphon all of gas you can get out of the tank first before you do anything).

Remove the tank from the bike. Remove the fuel pump (the big circular thing you see on the bottom of your tank). Remove the gas cap. I would remove the two hoses on the bottom of the tank (not really needed but just gets them out of your way). That is it...Do your thing with the sealer.

If you read my post from the page before this one, I go over fairly well what I did and how it worked for me. It is not a difficult job at all, just time consuming. My biggest suggestion is to ignore the drywall screw step on the Caswell instructions. The Monster tank just has way too many areas where those pesky screws wanna get stuck.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on September 10, 2010, 11:58:47 AM
Tank update - San Antonio - After KCI closed shop with my new tank "on order", I finally visited the new Ducati dealership in San Antonio. I explained the situation with KCI and that the tank had apparently been OK'ed for a replacement previously, so they wrote it up and took more pictures to submit to DNA. They said they would be in touch with me as soon as they heard back from DNA.
Hopefully this time I will get a new tank, as the old one is really swelling bad and it's a pregnant dog to unlatch the tank.

Just got a call back from the dealer and they said I have been approved, they will call me again once my tank comes in.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 05:13:25 AM
Motorcycles are not the only vehicles having this pain.  My 2006 Nissan Xterra is in the shop for the 3rd time to address the NHTSA Campaign ID number :     10V075000

"NISSAN IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2006 AND MODEL YEAR 2008 FRONTIER, XTERRA AND PATHFINDER VEHICLES. THE MOLDED FUEL TANK SHELLS CAN DEFORM, CAUSING THE FUEL SENDER FLOAT ARM TO CONTACT AN EMBOSSMENT MOLDED INTO THE TANK SHELL CAUSING THE INSTRUMENT PANEL FUEL GAUGE TO SHOW THAT THE VEHICLE HAS APPROXIMATELY ONE QUARTER TANK WHEN THE FUEL TANK IS EMPTY.
Consequence:
THIS COULD CAUSE THE VEHICLE TO RUN OUT OF GAS AND STALL IN TRAFFIC, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE FUEL LEVEL SENDING UNIT INSIDE THE FUEL TANK WITH A NEW ONE THAT HAS A MODIFIED FLOAT ARM. THIS SERVICE WILL BE PERFORMED FREE OF CHARGE. THE SAFETY RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OR BEFORE MARCH 22, 2010. OWNERS MAY CONTACT NISSAN AT 1-800-647-7261."


Nissan replacing the float arm is not treating the root cause of the tank problem, and I am getting very upset with it.  IMO, the tank is the problem and should be replaced, and it will probably deform again just like the Ducati tanks are doing.

On the upside, if enough people register on the NHTSA site for this problem, a real recall may be issued.

I pressed the dealer for a new Nissan tank under the emissions warranty, but he said it is not a major part, which jives with the EPA's definition, but upsets me that the fuel tank is not a major emissions part !?!

link to EPA's definition    http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt (http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt)

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 15, 2010, 05:16:06 AM
Lol the tank is expanding and causing the float to fail... so their first reaction is to replace the float...  ???

In this circumstance DNA is coming up roses!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 08:26:28 AM
Those tanks are multilayer HDPE, not PA6 nylon.  HDPE will warp but not due to water absorption like PA6.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 11:03:19 AM
Still, tell me how the tank is not a "major emissions part" according the EPA?  A quick google lists all sorts of emissions considerations for steel VS plastic, plastic layer design, how the seams are sealed, gaskets and fittings etc, etc.

One of the basic emissions problems is fuel evaporation, and almost all plastic tanks evaporate gas - some significantly enough that they can't be used on ultra low emission vehicles.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Still, tell me how the tank is not a "major emissions part" according the EPA?  A quick google lists all sorts of emissions considerations for steel VS plastic, plastic layer design, how the seams are sealed, gaskets and fittings etc, etc.

One of the basic emissions problems is fuel evaporation, and almost all plastic tanks evaporate gas - some significantly enough that they can't be used on ultra low emission vehicles.

mitt

it's not because whatever EPA qualification they are using says its not.

it's not a logical definition, it's a legal one.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 01:08:30 PM
it's not because whatever EPA qualification they are using says its not.

Can you provide a link to what is legally a major emissions part?  According to my link above, the EPA defines it and the gas tank (including Ducati) should not be considered an emission part. 


" There are three specified major emission control components,
covered for the first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use on 1995
and newer vehicles:

          * Catalytic converters.

          * The electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU).

          * The onboard emissions diagnostic device or computer (OBD)."



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
Can you provide a link to what is legally a major emissions part?  According to my link above, the EPA defines it and the gas tank (including Ducati) should not be considered an emission part.  


" There are three specified major emission control components,
covered for the first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use on 1995
and newer vehicles:

          * Catalytic converters.

          * The electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU).

          * The onboard emissions diagnostic device or computer (OBD)."



It is specific to each vehicle, I don't know if it is by type, but if you look in your owner's manual, Ducati states it is.

I think I have a scan of the page somewhere.  It is the "USA Specific Warranty" page.

here is the txt:

Quote
United States Environmental Protection Agency and the
California Air Resources Board. Any part or parts replaced
under this warranty shall become the property of Ducati.
In the state of California only, emissions related warranted
parts are specifically defined by that state’s Emissions
Warranty Parts List. These warranted parts are: carburetor
and internal parts; intake manifold; fuel tank, fuel injection
system; spark advance mechanism; crankcase breather;
air cutoff valves; fuel tank cap for evaporative emission
controlled vehicles; oil filler cap; pressure control valve;
fuel/vapor separator; canister; igniters; breaker governors;
ignition coils; ignition wires; ignition points, condensers,
and spark plugs if failure occors prior to the first scheduled
replacement, and hoses, clamps, fittings and tubing used
directly in these parts.
Since emission related parts may
vary from model to model, certain models may not contain
all of these parts and certain models may contain
functionally equivalent parts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Howie on September 15, 2010, 04:50:06 PM
Still, tell me how the tank is not a "major emissions part" according the EPA?  A quick google lists all sorts of emissions considerations for steel VS plastic, plastic layer design, how the seams are sealed, gaskets and fittings etc, etc.

One of the basic emissions problems is fuel evaporation, and almost all plastic tanks evaporate gas - some significantly enough that they can't be used on ultra low emission vehicles whether covered by warranty or not..

mitt

Broken down to simple terms, the evaporative emissions test  is to put the vehicle in a big air tight container over a period of time and measure the amount of hydrocarbons that escaped the vehicle.  Under the limit, the car passes.  

If the EPA discovers an emissions problem with fuel tanks they can recall those vehicles whether covered by warranty or not.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 05:19:15 PM
It is specific to each vehicle, I don't know if it is by type, but if you look in your owner's manual, Ducati states it is.




I looked up my nissan warranty book, and it pretty much lines up with the EPA page I linked and quoted.  The only parts covered by the extended emission warranty are considered major, and is the ecu, cat converter, and the on board diagnostic computer.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 05:22:51 PM

I looked up my nissan warranty book, and it pretty much lines up with the EPA page I linked and quoted.  The only parts covered by the extended emission warranty are considered major, and is the ecu, cat converter, and the on board diagnostic computer.

mitt

the EPA page probably specifies a minimum then.  manufacturers are free to add.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on September 16, 2010, 03:38:42 AM
I skimmed the 56 pages on this problem and didn't see this posted, maybe I just missed it. Anyways I have a 2009 696, purchased new in June 2009. Presently have 1500 miles on it. Last week it started leaking fuel. A pretty steady drip. I pull the tank and see gas all over the rear bottom of the tank. Trailer it up to the Ducati dealer. They call me yesterday and tell me the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects. Then they ask me if I tried to seal it myself as there was some type of white sealer around the fuel pump connection. I told them no as I only looked to see where the leak was from. They then tell me as it is not important as the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects and that they will be replacing my tank and a new fuel pump seal. Told me the tank is $1000 and will take two weeks to get in! Fortunately it is covered under warranty and they are replacing it for free.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 16, 2010, 03:50:21 AM
I know a guy with a multi that is leaking from the pump flange too...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 16, 2010, 03:59:46 AM
I skimmed the 56 pages on this problem and didn't see this posted, maybe I just missed it. Anyways I have a 2009 696, purchased new in June 2009. Presently have 1500 miles on it. Last week it started leaking fuel. A pretty steady drip. I pull the tank and see gas all over the rear bottom of the tank. Trailer it up to the Ducati dealer. They call me yesterday and tell me the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects. Then they ask me if I tried to seal it myself as there was some type of white sealer around the fuel pump connection. I told them no as I only looked to see where the leak was from. They then tell me as it is not important as the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects and that they will be replacing my tank and a new fuel pump seal. Told me the tank is $1000 and will take two weeks to get in!

That should be a warranty repair.

DO NOT PAY THEM TO FIX THE TANK.  You need to push them on it, call Ducati in Cali and talk to someone in customer service.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on September 16, 2010, 04:52:05 AM
That should be a warranty repair.
DO NOT PAY THEM TO FIX THE TANK.  You need to push them on it, call Ducati in Cali and talk to someone in customer service.

Sorry I should have been clearer. They are covering it under warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on September 22, 2010, 03:34:54 AM
With my old Triumph’s steel petrol tank, I always parked it full of fuel to prevent corrosion forming inside the tank.  After replacing the sender plate on my BMW after seeing how corroded it was, I wondered whether it is better to now park that bike full or low on fuel if it will sit for a week or so.  Now, after having the fuel tank on my Ducati replaced because of swelling (apparently) caused by today’s ethanol laced fuel, I started parking that bike without filling up to try to reduce exposing the tank to whatever in the fuel is causing it to swell.  What are you doing?  Parking full or low on fuel?  Does it matter?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 04:25:05 AM
With my old Triumph’s steel petrol tank, I always parked it full of fuel to prevent corrosion forming inside the tank.  After replacing the sender plate on my BMW after seeing how corroded it was, I wondered whether it is better to now park that bike full or low on fuel if it will sit for a week or so.  Now, after having the fuel tank on my Ducati replaced because of swelling (apparently) caused by today’s ethanol laced fuel, I started parking that bike without filling up to try to reduce exposing the tank to whatever in the fuel is causing it to swell.  What are you doing?  Parking full or low on fuel?  Does it matter?

-Jeff

what matters more is keeping the fuel from phase separation.  that means cycling it frequently, draining the tank, or using some kind of additive like Startron or Stabil. 

also, heat.  once the fuel separates, heat accelerates the absorption of water into the tank walls.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on September 22, 2010, 11:27:21 AM
once the fuel separates, heat accelerates the absorption of water into the tank walls.

I'm screwed then living in hot and humid East Texas.  I'll just enjoy the heck out of the bike until this tank bloats beyond servicable limits, then figure out what to do.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 12:09:52 PM
Use stabil marine and run it til near empty before filling up.  If you store it, drain it and put one of those milsuro desiccant bags in the filler.

Good luck.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 12:10:37 PM
Also look into getting it coated.  That will stop it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 22, 2010, 04:37:06 PM
Just signed up to the yahoo group.  06 S2r1000.  Although not a bad as some of the others on here, I am def experiencing similar issues.  Ducati SOHO told me that after time the tank will stop expanding??  They also told me nothing can be done unless fuel is leaking.  Appreciate you taking on this cause and will offer any upport necesary.

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 04:58:08 PM
Just signed up to the yahoo group.  06 S2r1000.  Although not a bad as some of the others on here, I am def experiencing similar issues.  Ducati SOHO told me that after time the tank will stop expanding??  They also told me nothing can be done unless fuel is leaking.  Appreciate you taking on this cause and will offer any upport necesary.

Mike

You are the 3rd or 4th person sold that line of BS from Ducati Soho. 

Ducati NA is replacing every tank that is showing deformation.  There is no "fuel must be leaking" rule, and I have that in an email directly from DNA.  Take it to another dealer, and with it, the rest of your business.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 22, 2010, 11:37:42 PM
Just signed up to the yahoo group.  06 S2r1000.  Although not a bad as some of the others on here, I am def experiencing similar issues.  Ducati SOHO told me that after time the tank will stop expanding??  They also told me nothing can be done unless fuel is leaking.  Appreciate you taking on this cause and will offer any upport necesary.

Mike
Duc SOHO really sucks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: psycledelic on September 23, 2010, 12:33:17 AM
I'm late to the party, but had my tank inspected at Ducati of Charlotte yesterday.  They ordered a warrantied replacement without question or hassle.  I assume it will be prone to the same defect though.  I signed up via email earlier this morning. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on September 23, 2010, 02:03:50 AM
Getting my replacement tank today.  Self-paid for Caswell.  Will keep everyone posted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 23, 2010, 04:20:36 AM
Tiz, what cn be done about dealers like Ducati SoHo? Not all people are on the forum or actually do research. This is a case of a dealer obviously providing incorrect information. Can DNA step in and do something about it?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 23, 2010, 07:37:41 AM
Tiz, what cn be done about dealers like Ducati SoHo? Not all people are on the forum or actually do research. This is a case of a dealer obviously providing incorrect information. Can DNA step in and do something about it?

I brought it up with them previously, I don't know what they did with the information.  Other than people calling up Ducati NA in California and saying they are taking their business elsewhere, DucSoho has a franchise contract or some similar arrangement.  Ducati NA doesn't lose business if you go to another Ducati dealer.

The best thing to do is call Ducati NA directly, they have a good cust service line I have found and so far people are getting good info from them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 25, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
You are the 3rd or 4th person sold that line of BS from Ducati Soho. 

Ducati NA is replacing every tank that is showing deformation.  There is no "fuel must be leaking" rule, and I have that in an email directly from DNA.  Take it to another dealer, and with it, the rest of your business.



Im going to call Rockwell cycles on Tuesday.  If I do get the tank replaced I would like have it coated with Caswell's liner as to avoid issues in the future. Anyone know if this will be done by the dealer or can I request to do this myself prior to putting the tank on?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 26, 2010, 01:59:32 AM
Im going to call Rockwell cycles on Tuesday.  If I do get the tank replaced I would like have it coated with Caswell's liner as to avoid issues in the future. Anyone know if this will be done by the dealer or can I request to do this myself prior to putting the tank on?

Most likely they can do it, I have read of multiple dealers around the country even offering it as part of the tank replacement (but you gotta pay).. A kit is about $40 and figure 2 hours labor typical.   

There are about a half dozen multistrada guys I have talked to who have had the coating running now well over a year and zero issues.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 26, 2010, 04:46:19 AM
I talked to my dealer yesterday. I'm going to pay for the kit and bring it in. We will coat my tank and their personal tanks as well. If it works out I'm hoping they will also start coating the tanks for the additional fee. $40 is a small price to pay to get at least 1 dealer to do the right thing.

Can anyone post a link to the Caswell site so that I can order the kit?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 26, 2010, 04:49:11 AM
I talked to my dealer yesterday. I'm going to pay for the kit and bring it in. We will coat my tank and their personal tanks as well. If it works out I'm hoping they will also start coating the tanks for the additional fee. $40 is a small price to pay to get at least 1 dealer to do the right thing.

Can anyone post a link to the Caswell site so that I can order the kit?
Dood...

Is google broken there?  [roll]

http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 26, 2010, 06:08:24 AM
Too lazy and I was confident that my neighborhood humorless painter would reply.

BTW, in the same conversation I had with the dealer he explained that there are laws in Florida where I dealer can not refuse to do warranty work. Are there similar laws in NY?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 26, 2010, 06:11:10 AM
Too lazy and I was confident that my neighborhood humorless painter would reply.

BTW, in the same conversation I had with the dealer he explained that there are laws in Florida where I dealer can not refuse to do warranty work. Are there similar laws in NY?

that's interesting, i'd like to see the statute in Florida.  I am aware of nothing in NY that requires the >dealer< to do the work, but of course there are state laws which affect a >manufacturer< who sells a warranted good in NY.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 26, 2010, 06:19:55 AM
Most manufacturers, or distributors, have clauses in the franchise agreement that requires that dealers perform warranty work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 27, 2010, 02:20:10 AM
But from what we see in this situation, DNA is not forcing their dealers to do the warranty work. When he told me I first thought it was under the lemon law, but it's something separate.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on September 27, 2010, 05:19:43 AM
Most manufacturers, or distributors, have clauses in the franchise agreement that requires that dealers perform warranty work.

I assume the clauses involves reimbursement to the dealer from Ducati NA for work performed at the dealer for the warranty work.

But with Ducati Soho Manhattan, are these bozos just avoiding dealing with the reimbursement process with Ducati NA? (Assuming IF there is a issue with reimbursement.)

I find the excuse, "it has to be leaking", to refuse warranty replacement seems at odds with safety issue.

When I asked the service manager , the one that refused to submit a warranty claim on my tank, why would Ducati NA wait for fuel to drip onto the engine and involve other related issues with leaking fuel, or even a fire hazard, he was silent on the inquiry...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 27, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
I brought it up with them previously, I don't know what they did with the information.  Other than people calling up Ducati NA in California and saying they are taking their business elsewhere, DucSoho has a franchise contract or some similar arrangement.  Ducati NA doesn't lose business if you go to another Ducati dealer.

The best thing to do is call Ducati NA directly, they have a good cust service line I have found and so far people are getting good info from them.

Just called Ducati NA to inform them of the issues with the tank swelling, as well as Ducati SOHO misinforming me that the tank needs to be leaking.  Ducati NA rep was aware of SOHO giving incorrect information to customers, documented our conversation, and told me to bring it up to Nick at Rockwell cycles.  I'm going to make the appointment tomorrow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 27, 2010, 07:07:21 AM
But from what we see in this situation, DNA is not forcing their dealers to do the warranty work. When he told me I first thought it was under the lemon law, but it's something separate.


We don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

If my dealer told me no and I knew they had their heads wedged, I'd thank DNA for pointing me in a better direction. If you were a distributor of a product and you had multiple dealers in a metro area would you force the dealer to do the work, probably piss off the customer, or worse have a bunch of pissed off people force federal involvement...

or find a dealer that understands they make money when they do warranty work and even more from happy customers?

It seems, to me at least, that some people are trying to vilify DNA.

I think they're doing a pretty good job in a sucky situation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 27, 2010, 07:43:07 AM
I think this whole thread has shown that DNA has been doing the right thing.

In South Florida there was a dealer that completely sucked. DNA had been trying for years to kill that relationship, but it wasn't until the dealer went under that they were able to get away from the situation. Like you said DP, it might be that DNA is not happy with SoHo for many reasons and they're doing their best to point people to the better dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 27, 2010, 10:16:39 AM
I agree that DNA seemed to be very sympathetic to the whole situation.  He informed that the regional DNA rep was aware that Ducati SOHO was giving wrong info to customers and working to rectify the situation.  I also told him that if it was not for the wrong info from SOHO I would have had a new tank a year ago.  Now I am close to having a 5 year old bike, told him about the 5 year emissions warranty and he told me that even if I went over that time period, as long as the proper paperwork and pictures are sent to the regional rep, the tank would be replaced as a good will gesture.  I was very impressed by DNA customer service.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 27, 2010, 11:35:41 AM
he told me that even if I went over that time period, as long as the proper paperwork and pictures are sent to the regional rep, the tank would be replaced as a good will gesture.  I was very impressed by DNA customer service.

That is an INCREDIBLE backing from a manufacturer. I've had various manufacturers in the past tell me that the day my warranty expired I was pretty much up a creek. Hopefully I never have to test their resolve, but having a rep state that makes me confident that they have at least considered the scenario.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on September 27, 2010, 03:47:28 PM
FWIW in case the problem IS indeed ethanol, this site lists ethanol free gas stations by state...
http://www.pure-gas.org/ (http://www.pure-gas.org/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 28, 2010, 12:50:26 AM
You've missed a few pages!

Yes its due to ethanol and yes that's been posted but that site hasn't been updated for a year.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on September 28, 2010, 01:50:58 PM
You've missed a few pages!

Yes its due to ethanol and yes that's been posted but that site hasn't been updated for a year.

sorry about that...but since there are 58 it was easy to miss a few ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 28, 2010, 03:57:19 PM
sorry about that...but since there are 58 it was easy to miss a few ;)

I've summarized the known facts in the first post.  Check it out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on September 30, 2010, 07:05:22 AM
10.  Ducati NA seems to be engaged, but not to the extent we'd all like them to be.  That doesn't mean a solution isn't coming, but it also doesn't mean a solution is coming at all.  The best thing for me to do is continue working with them until I am convinced there is no more effort on their part.  I do not currently have a timeline, there is no statute of limitations for a defect suit of this type.

Excellent summary.  Thank you for updating page one to save us from scanning the latest posts for nuggets of information.  Has DNA indicated whether they are considering supplying replacement tanks with a coating or made from a better material?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 30, 2010, 07:27:05 AM
Just ordered the kit. I'll keep you guys posted on how well it goes with the dealer. My hope is that they start charging extra for the sealer, hopefully when they sell the bikes instead of after the tank expands.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 01, 2010, 07:05:24 PM
Just bought an 07 S2R1K with the tank expanded til hell wouldn't have it. Can't even raise the tank it's expanded so much. Headed to the Ducpond tomorrow for the Ducati Experience Truck and figure I'll have them look at it and start the process to get it replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 01, 2010, 07:22:52 PM
Just bought an 07 S2R1K with the tank expanded til hell wouldn't have it. Can't even raise the tank it's expanded so much. Headed to the Ducpond tomorrow for the Ducati Experience Truck and figure I'll have them look at it and start the process to get it replaced.

I wonder if the Ducati Experience includes a tank blowing?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Desert Dust on October 02, 2010, 04:09:10 PM
My tank has expanded so much that the top triple clamp hits the tank on the left side.
Luckily, my new tank has arrived. However, my dealer cautioned against coating the new tank. The dealer stated that he has had only one problem of the new tanks expanding out of several hundred replacements. I hope he's right.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 02, 2010, 05:19:10 PM
My tank has expanded so much that the top triple clamp hits the tank on the left side.
Luckily, my new tank has arrived. However, my dealer cautioned against coating the new tank. The dealer stated that he has had only one problem of the new tanks expanding out of several hundred replacements. I hope he's right.

Just out of curiosity, why did he caution against coating?  I am in the same situation, actually had my bike checked out today by Rockwell Cycles today and they recommended using Caswell to coat.  They did not guarantee it's effectiveness as it's only been a year since they started coating but stated that the replacement tank is the same as the old one.  Coating seems to be the only precautionary measure to take.  Did your dealer advise against for warranty issues or another reason?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Desert Dust on October 02, 2010, 07:33:15 PM
Just out of curiosity, why did he caution against coating?  I am in the same situation, actually had my bike checked out today by Rockwell Cycles today and they recommended using Caswell to coat.  They did not guarantee it's effectiveness as it's only been a year since they started coating but stated that the replacement tank is the same as the old one.  Coating seems to be the only precautionary measure to take.  Did your dealer advise against for warranty issues or another reason?
He said that sometimes the coating does not stick, then you have chunks of coating floating around with the fuel. He also said that coating could void any future warranties.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 02, 2010, 07:47:01 PM
He said that sometimes the coating does not stick, then you have chunks of coating floating around with the fuel. He also said that coating could void any future warranties.

Thanks for the feedback.  That's interesting.  I'm wondering if he was talking about the Caswell's or other Liner's?  I read about other epoxy's online causing this but not Cawell's.  Anyone else have any feed back on this?  As far as warranty's go, I'm at 4 1/2 years right now so my warranty is almost up anyway.  Plus how would they know if you had the inside of the tank lined?  It is clear from what I understand.  Too be honest, I'm sick of this tank issue already.  Just want to Ride!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 03, 2010, 08:56:44 AM
He said that sometimes the coating does not stick, then you have chunks of coating floating around with the fuel. He also said that coating could void any future warranties.

On a new tank, there is no evidence I've seen that Caswell will have any problem.  I personally know of 7 guys with multistradas with the coating for over a year now and at least another 6 more multis and monsters ranging from 4 to 12 months. 

It has been tested and there have been no adhesion issues.

If you are using the coating on a USED tank, then preparation is incredibly important and there MAY be adhesion issues if you do not prepare it correctly.  That means draining, cleaning, rinsing and letting it dry for a while in a dry environment.  If you are in a lot of humidity, then figure out a way to move it to a low humidity location and let it sit and air out and dry. 

Roughing the surface doesn't help.  But I recommend removing the air bubbles from the inner surface of the tank.  These are obvious when you see them, they are artifacts from the rotomolding.  Basically, they are a pimple -- a very thin bubble on the surface of the tank.  Cut the thin surface off with an exacto knife.  The tank is about 3/4" thick and you will have to try hard to puncture it, but go slow and just remove the bubble.  If the coating is on the bubble and somehow it breaks, gasoline/ethanol can penetrate under it and it can lift.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 04, 2010, 02:45:50 AM
I wonder if the Ducati Experience includes a tank blowing?
Let's hope not. Ended up shooting the shit and test riding a hyper instead of having the Pond look at my tank. Guess I'll just take to the locals...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 08, 2010, 03:37:33 PM
Ran my s2r1k by Coleman Powersports in Falls Church to get pics taken of the tank (bubbles on sides and latch pressed into ignition). They tell me it'll be spring before it gets approved and a tank floats over from littl'ol Itly!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 08, 2010, 03:42:14 PM
What color is your tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 08, 2010, 06:09:44 PM
That's weird cause I got my tank from Italy in about a week. Weird.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 10, 2010, 05:03:08 PM
So one week to the day that I brought my bike in to Rockwell cycles I found out that I was approved by DNA for  replacement tank.  As soon as it arrives they are sending it out to have it coated with Caswell's.  To say I am Psyched is an understatement!  This whole tank issue left me a little bitter towards Ducati, but following the process outlined here was simple.  To anyone who deals with a dealership that has given them the runaround (SOHO for me) my advice is simple...Find another dealer.  Anyone in the NYC area go to Rockwell Cycles.  They are awesome to deal with.

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: corvtt1969 on October 11, 2010, 04:17:50 PM
i called colemans in woodbridge(only cause i couldnt get thru at the falls church store) and they said it takes about a month for a new tank, and bring it in to the falls church store where their ducati tech was working. Im going wednesday to hopefully have this resolved. Will post results wednesday night. they also said if i didnt want to leave my bike there, id have to put a deposit down on the tank which was in the 1800$ range.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2010, 04:46:00 PM
i called colemans in woodbridge(only cause i couldnt get thru at the falls church store) and they said it takes about a month for a new tank, and bring it in to the falls church store where their ducati tech was working. Im going wednesday to hopefully have this resolved. Will post results wednesday night. they also said if i didnt want to leave my bike there, id have to put a deposit down on the tank which was in the 1800$ range.

wait... what???  they said you have to leave your bike there for a month???  WTF?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on October 11, 2010, 04:47:43 PM
wait... what???  they said you have to leave your bike there for a month???  WTF?
a deposit on a warranty part?

Isn't that completely illegal?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2010, 04:50:10 PM
a deposit on a warranty part?

Isn't that completely illegal?

I don't know if it's illegal, but it's definitely unwarranted.  They have your VIN, seems DNA would just disapprove another warranty claim if you stiff a dealer.

I just keep hearing garbage like this, and it really pisses me off.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on October 11, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
and......how could you "stiff" a dealer on a warranty part in the first place?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on October 11, 2010, 05:37:41 PM
and......how could you "stiff" a dealer on a warranty part in the first place?
Ducati bills the dealer for the part and then the dealer bills Ducati for the claim.

If the customer doesn't come to have the work done the dealer gets 'stiffed' or stuck with the part.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 11, 2010, 06:23:45 PM
Placing a deposit for warranty parts or having to leave your bike for any amount of time is ridiculous.  I would contact DNA and make them aware....

I guess it really comes down to the dealer you go to.  I stopped by on a Saturday, they snapped 4 pics, took the VIN and I was approved in a week.  They said about a week to get the new tank in, and about two weeks to send out to get coated. 

I think some dealers for whatever reason just don't want to do this work.  Last year I was told my tank had to be leaking to even have it looked at by them.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2010, 06:37:36 PM
Update

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0)

Update #4  11-Oct-2010

If you have been told by a dealer any of the following, PLEASE PM ME with your contact info, i.e. name, email, phone #, and the dealer you dealt with.  I will be taking this directly to a meeting with my contacts at Ducati.

  • You have to have a leaking tank before we will replace it.
  • You have to leave a deposit to get your replacement tank
  • You have to leave your bike with us until the new tank comes in
  • Ducati isn't replacing tanks merely for expansion
  • Your bike is out of warranty, no replacement

etc

Also, if you have sold your bike due to the tank issue, please contact me as above.

Thanks

Izaak


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on October 13, 2010, 05:33:01 AM
Well it has now been over 3 weeks and I still don't have a replacement tank. Dealer yesterday told me it is on back order from Italy with no estimated date of arrival. Guess it is up to me to see if I can make it happen.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:06:13 AM
Well it has now been over 3 weeks and I still don't have a replacement tank. Dealer yesterday told me it is on back order from Italy with no estimated date of arrival. Guess it is up to me to see if I can make it happen.

Mine took 5 months.

Don't expect quick service on this, you are in a big line of people probably, esp for the popular colors.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DeuceNYC on October 13, 2010, 08:26:42 AM
The EPA is running with a proposal to increase the allowable percentage of ethanol in gasoline from 10% to 15%. I hope DNA finds a workable solution soon because it seems the problem will only get worse.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Veloce-Fino on October 13, 2010, 08:30:52 AM
The EPA

This is the problem right here.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on October 13, 2010, 08:32:12 AM
This is the problem right here.

let's not go there....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:33:22 AM
The EPA is running with a proposal to increase the allowable percentage of ethanol in gasoline from 10% to 15%. I hope DNA finds a workable solution soon because it seems the problem will only get worse.

the only option is for EVERYONE to write the EPA and complain about it OR to ask them to mandate that pumps have to offer Ethanol-free gas as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 13, 2010, 08:39:18 AM
Would this cause the issue to be worse than what it already is? I would assume that unless it increases by like 50%, it would still cause the issue at probably similar rate.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:44:55 AM
Would this cause the issue to be worse than what it already is? I would assume that unless it increases by like 50%, it would still cause the issue at probably similar rate.

Absolutely.  It would accelerate the expansion.  Ethanol absorbs water at a certain rate (pure gasoline does as well, but the rate is around 1/1000th that of ethanol).

Increasing the ethanol dilution by 50% means there is 50% more water in the mixture.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DeuceNYC on October 13, 2010, 08:46:27 AM
Would this cause the issue to be worse than what it already is? I would assume that unless it increases by like 50%, it would still cause the issue at probably similar rate.

I don't think anyone knows for certain, but a 50% increase is pretty significant. Not to mention ethanol produces fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline so you'll also be looking at poorer fuel economy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:51:47 AM
We need a separate ethanol thread...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 13, 2010, 08:56:46 AM
Agreed, yuu already started it. Guys, before everyone freaks out, they are increasing it by 5%. This means 5% more water absorbtion, which is technically 50% of the current level, so yeah I see your point.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 09:13:31 AM
Agreed, yuu already started it. Guys, before everyone freaks out, they are increasing it by 5%. This means 50% more water absorbtion, which is technically 50% of the current level, so yeah I see your point.

corrected

10 ml of ethanol absorbs water at a rate of X per minute at Y degrees and Z% humidity.

15 ml will absorb 50% more by volume with X Y and Z remaining constant.

Increase the temperature and/or humidity and the absorption rate increases.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on October 13, 2010, 09:58:01 AM
Mine took 5 months.
Don't expect quick service on this, you are in a big line of people probably, esp for the popular colors.

That really is unacceptable. If that is the case, once it is fixed I will be selling it. I love the 696 Monster, but if that is the way Ducati wants to treat their customers, then I will vote with my feet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 10:08:47 AM
That really is unacceptable. If that is the case, once it is fixed I will be selling it. I love the 696 Monster, but if that is the way Ducati wants to treat their customers, then I will vote with my feet.

In my case, I have the '05 S2R Acid Yellow, which was the only year and model offered in that color, so I assume it was the rarity.  As far as other delays, bear in mind there are a LOT of people making these claims now and someone actually has to look at the photos when they send them in. 

Currently (I'm told by DNA that) dealers are communicating >directly< with Bologna with a new system they've put into place.  I think that may speed things up, but it seems to me that DNA should have the say-so anyhow since they are the warrantor, not Bologna. 

5 months is the longest I've heard, most are around a month.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 13, 2010, 11:36:01 AM
Mine was less than 2 weeks. I think DNA has been doing a fantastic job turning these around.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on October 13, 2010, 11:36:30 AM
The EPA is running with a proposal to increase the allowable percentage of ethanol in gasoline from 10% to 15%. I hope DNA finds a workable solution soon because it seems the problem will only get worse.

Awesome... [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 14, 2010, 02:41:07 PM
Filed my NHTSA ODI complaint today.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Razgriz on October 14, 2010, 10:23:19 PM
Just reporting in.
2006 Sport 1000, had original tank replaced on July, 2009 due to slight expansion.
Now October, 2010 the replaced tank has bubbles and severe expansion on the right side, like freaking 2 inches.
The dealer will only shim the tank and see if it'll expand any further before DNA will even attempt to replace it...  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mikimiki on October 14, 2010, 11:45:18 PM
Hello, guys.  Sorry to jump in but I need your opinion.
Has anyone replaced tank with Beverly Hills Ducati?

Two months ago, I requested them to file warranty claim for inflating plastic tank of my 2006 Monster Dark 620.
(I did not purchase my bike from them but they are the nearest dealer.)
When I first called them, it seemed like they were aware of the issue; they just asked me to send some photos and info (VIN, mileage, etc.).
They told me that I don't even have to show them my bike, so I kind of expected to receive positive answer quickly.
But since then, I don't even have an answer if my warranty request is approved or not.

The dealer kept saying that they were also waiting for an answer, so two days ago I finally decided to call DNA.
(Actually, I e-mailed DNA before but never got any reply.)
After several attempts (they are usually busy and put me in voicemail), luckily got answered. 
DNA checked my warranty request in their database, but they did not find my record...  i.e. I waited for two months for nothing...
The guy told me that he would check with the dealer and call me back.  Never called me back so far...

What should I do next?  Should I go to another dealer and start all over again?
If anyone had experience with this dealer, or some others in So-Cal, please let me know. 
Any suggestion is appreciated.  Thanks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Howie on October 15, 2010, 03:14:22 AM
I would go back to your dealer and tell them you called DNA to find out the status on your tank and they could not find the claim.  Nicely ask them to file again. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 15, 2010, 04:12:15 AM
Just reporting in.
2006 Sport 1000, had original tank replaced on July, 2009 due to slight expansion.
Now October, 2010 the replaced tank has bubbles and severe expansion on the right side, like freaking 2 inches.
The dealer will only shim the tank and see if it'll expand any further before DNA will even attempt to replace it...  

Ducati issued a service bulletin which says to do this (shim the tank on SC models).  Apparently, they think some tanks only expand to a certain point and then stop or shrink back.  I don't think it will solve anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mikimiki on October 15, 2010, 10:37:10 PM
Thank you, howie.  I will try a little more with this dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on October 17, 2010, 09:46:54 AM
Just got a call back from the dealer and they said I have been approved, they will call me again once my tank comes in.  [thumbsup]

Tank finally came in :) Woohoo, everything fts nice again  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 18, 2010, 06:58:35 PM
I have some good and bad news regarding Caswell coating inside the tank.

I don't have the exact details yet, I expect to get them soon.  The good news is that the coating works, adheres and prevents moisture from getting into the material.  I don't have the details on their testing, but apparently it did the job fine.

The bad news is that the coating somehow changes the "profile" of the tank so that it does not meet homologation requirements.

This means that Ducati will not be using Caswell to prevent tank expansion, however, it does give some very good news for those who've gotten their tanks coated.  

I don't know how much detail I will get later.  I don't have any official test results or anything, only that Ducati did test the coating from Caswell and a) it works and b) it changes the tank so that it doesn't meet homologation requirements.  

"b)" doesn't mean anything to an owner, but it means a lot to the manufacturer, but "a)" means a lot for those of you thinking of doing the coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 19, 2010, 05:54:28 AM
So let me understand, Ducati actually tested the coating on their end and found that it solved the issue, but because of the homologation requirements (EPA?) they are not allowed to coat the tanks directly. Now, does this mean that dealers are not allowed to offer the coating on their end?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2010, 06:37:23 AM
So let me understand, Ducati actually tested the coating on their end and found that it solved the issue, but because of the homologation requirements (EPA?) they are not allowed to coat the tanks directly. Now, does this mean that dealers are not allowed to offer the coating on their end?

First off, I don't know that it's an EPA issue.  There are a lot of other homologation issues which come to bear, and AFAIK, the tank has to be homologated for every market Ducati is in.

Secondly, a dealer can do any work for you that you are willing to pay for:  overbore pistons, stroked crank, straight pipes, remove your lights, etc etc.  They don't have to stick to the factory configuration, and when you sign the work order, it will usually say something to that effect (that this modification may make your bike not street legal, etc).

I don't know of any issue that would make YOU or a DEALER coating the tank a problem.  I am having trouble figuring out what may come into play to prevent Ducati from using Caswell (it may just be the Caswell product, they might be using another coating for all I know).  NHTSA, DOT, EPA all come into play when a vehicle is put on the road in the USA, however, like I said, Ducati puts the same tank on bikes in every country so there may be some EU.  To my knowledge, Japan and Oz follow EU for emissions.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on October 19, 2010, 05:11:32 PM
So any idea what their plan is? I'm sure eventually they will have to stop replacing tanks out of financial necessity and the fact you cant warranty a tank for life. I've heard the new style tanks <non nylon> are having the same issue. If this is fact it only makes sense to revert to a steel tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2010, 05:23:26 PM
So any idea what their plan is? I'm sure eventually they will have to stop replacing tanks out of financial necessity and the fact you cant warranty a tank for life. I've heard the new style tanks <non nylon> are having the same issue. If this is fact it only makes sense to revert to a steel tank.

i can't comment on any of that, i have no idea.

although, i seriously doubt they will ever go back to steel tanks on the mass market bikes.  the plastic is just too inexpensive, too easy to make, and eliminates the dent problem. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on October 20, 2010, 02:25:29 AM
I see your point but if every new bike off the line has this problem that's not profitable from a warranty standpoint. Nor is it profitable to gain a reputation for manufacturing a product that has a defective major component. So With new models i wonder if Ducati will submit a coated tank for "homologation" approval prior to emissions certification or whatever approval they need. Ive also thought they could use an internal flexible bladder like a F1 style tank. It would add a degree of safety but would require a re engineered evaporative emissions system. Anyhow I'm sure their not giving up on the problem but i  can only sit here and guess what their game plan is [coffee]


Title: Re: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on October 20, 2010, 10:17:57 AM
i can't comment on any of that, i have no idea.

although, i seriously doubt they will ever go back to steel tanks on the mass market bikes.  the plastic is just too inexpensive, too easy to make, and eliminates the dent problem. 
Maybe I do not know how big the dent problem was but for me I think of it as.
Steel tank: If I crash I get a dent.. well ya
Plastic tank: If I use gas I get a miss shaped tank..  I'm screwed

hmm


Title: Re: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 20, 2010, 10:22:27 AM
Maybe I do not know how big the dent problem was but for me I think of it as.
Steel tank: If I crash I get a dent.. well ya
Plastic tank: If I use gas I get a miss shaped tank..  I'm screwed

hmm

yeah, i know.  but they won't go back to a steel tank, i'd bet on that.  however, plastic can be made waterproof.  I'd rather they went to a bladder design anyhow, or a 2-wall design, but there are more things going on than i'm aware of.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: WetDuc on October 20, 2010, 11:42:00 AM
A 2 wall design seems like a good idea.
I had the tank replaced on my 695, and my S2R tank is on the way.  Both warranty claims done through Florida Motorsports in Tallahassee, FL.  It took forever to get both claims finally approved...it seemed each time the claim was filed, there was a picture/description issue on the part of the dealer causing it to bounce back.
All in all, myself, like most people, just want to ride and not worry about problems we "bought" ourselves into by choosing a Ducati. 
I appreciate your efforts, ducatiz.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign Up Important Info (UPDATED 11-Oct-10, see #1 post)
Post by: idsteve on October 20, 2010, 02:44:47 PM
Just got an approval from DNA through Cliffs and the tank is on order. Not sure how long a tricolore tank will take but its in the works and approved. This after failed attempts at the ah, er, um, yah, that place in Manhattan...  [clap]
cheers


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mikimiki on October 21, 2010, 08:59:33 PM
I tried to call DNA many times but never got answered.  But when I called the dealer (BH Ducati) I found that DNA followed up my request.  The dealer told me that DNA called them and instructed to re-submit the claim.  Finally I got approved today after one week [clap]  Now, hope to get a tank soon...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 22, 2010, 04:11:52 AM
I tried to call DNA many times but never got answered.  But when I called the dealer (BH Ducati) I found that DNA followed up my request.  The dealer told me that DNA called them and instructed to re-submit the claim.  Finally I got approved today after one week [clap]  Now, hope to get a tank soon...

That's a good story, thanks for the followup.  I am happy to hear they are being proactive.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on October 22, 2010, 05:24:08 AM
Does anyone know if there's any truth to the info that given time, once the fuel is removed from the tank and it is allowed to dry out, that it will return to it's original size?

I've had my tank replaced once before and I dont want to do it again.
I would be happy to coat my current tank if it will in fact go back to it's normal size if I allow it to dry.

Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: billruiz on October 22, 2010, 05:25:24 AM
I didn't know there was a "bulge-o-meter" criteria. My TriColore tank has expanded, but can still sit on the frame with no problem. I've had to elongate the holes in the mounting bracket so I can secure the tank with the clip up front. I'm attending an Open House at a Duc dealer on Sunday. Maybe I can get a parts guy to make a quick determination.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 22, 2010, 06:04:54 AM
I didn't know there was a "bulge-o-meter" criteria. My TriColore tank has expanded, but can still sit on the frame with no problem. I've had to elongate the holes in the mounting bracket so I can secure the tank with the clip up front. I'm attending an Open House at a Duc dealer on Sunday. Maybe I can get a parts guy to make a quick determination.

Your tank needs to be replaced.

It should not need to be moved back in the frame to prevent it from pushing on the keyswitch.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lawbreaker on October 22, 2010, 06:11:59 AM
Now replacing my SECOND tank..... so this is tank #3 so far during the life of my S2R1000...


Took about two and a half weeks to get the tank which is suprizing [thumbsup]


Now looking for a metal alternative... [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: IamSMC on October 22, 2010, 08:49:19 AM
Now replacing my SECOND tank..... so this is tank #3 so far during the life of my S2R1000...


Took about two and a half weeks to get the tank which is suprizing [thumbsup]


Now looking for a metal alternative... [beer]

Again, I'm still amazed how some can even get a 3rd tank when I having such a hard time getting my first warranty replacement and the hard time is even with the dealer that the first owner purchased the bike from.


In addition to the "it has to be leaking requirement", the dealer said since my tank has nicks from the handlebars, a warranty claim definitely won't go through.

Just wish the alternate dealer wasn't so far off...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on October 22, 2010, 08:53:45 AM
I would think that after a second tank, you could ask for a metal tank replacement and all the bits to make it work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on October 22, 2010, 09:43:11 AM
I'm having to replace a tank twice as well, first time I paid. Ducpond had a look at my original tank and the current one, haven't heard back from them but hopefully I'll get approved. First one was a fire hazard it leaked so bad.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on October 22, 2010, 11:37:54 AM
Does anyone know if there's any truth to the info that given time, once the fuel is removed from the tank and it is allowed to dry out, that it will return to it's original size?

I've had my tank replaced once before and I dont want to do it again.
I would be happy to coat my current tank if it will in fact go back to it's normal size if I allow it to dry.

Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

jimi

Replace "will" with "may".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 22, 2010, 12:07:17 PM
Howie is right.  It may shrink back.  However, even if it shrinks there may be moisture trapped in the wall of the tank.  I have seen tanks which shrank but had soft spots.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lawbreaker on October 22, 2010, 03:58:27 PM
I would think that after a second tank, you could ask for a metal tank replacement and all the bits to make it work.

AFAIK Ducati does NOT make a metal tank anymore..... I believe i need to find a 05 S4 tank ( someone chime in here) or something comparable.

So far, my local dealer ( who DOES NOT DO MY SERVICE BTW) is really kewl regarding the tank issue...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on October 22, 2010, 04:04:20 PM
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=541.msg3666#msg3666 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=541.msg3666#msg3666)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: csp808 on October 23, 2010, 01:26:38 PM
AFAIK Ducati does NOT make a metal tank anymore..... I believe i need to find a 05 S4 tank ( someone chime in here) or something comparable.

So far, my local dealer ( who DOES NOT DO MY SERVICE BTW) is really kewl regarding the tank issue...
i believe they do the first tank that came in for my bike was a metal one by mistake


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: poseur on October 24, 2010, 08:27:33 AM
What about using Sea Foam?
(http://www.seafoamsales.com/images/stories/products/thumbnails/thumb_sf-lg-motortreatment_product.jpg)

"Fuel can absorb moisture from the atmosphere - even more so with the addition of ethanol.  Crank case oil can also become easily contaminated with moisture.  Sea Foam fully encapsulates the water molecules in the fuel and oil to prevent phase separation - rendering the absorbed moisture harmless."

Why Sea Foam Motor Treatment Works (http://www.seafoamsales.com/why-sea-foam-motor-treatment-works.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 24, 2010, 09:26:26 AM
What about using Sea Foam?
(http://www.seafoamsales.com/images/stories/products/thumbnails/thumb_sf-lg-motortreatment_product.jpg)

"Fuel can absorb moisture from the atmosphere - even more so with the addition of ethanol.  Crank case oil can also become easily contaminated with moisture.  Sea Foam fully encapsulates the water molecules in the fuel and oil to prevent phase separation - rendering the absorbed moisture harmless."

Why Sea Foam Motor Treatment Works (http://www.seafoamsales.com/why-sea-foam-motor-treatment-works.html)

Sea Foam uses a type of alcohol to absorb moisture.  Which is why it cleans your system out so well -- ethanol as an additive also works to clean your injectors...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on October 24, 2010, 09:46:17 AM
Exactly 2 weeks from the day that DNA approved my new tank (which took a week after the dealer took pics and sent to DNA) my new tank has arrived.  Will be getting Caswells this week.  Special thanks to Rockwell cycles for getting this done and Ducatiz and other forum members for all the info and procedure to get this replaced.  If i would have listened to the first dealer I went to 1 1/2 years go I'd still be cringing looking at my deformed tank.

Thanks

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on October 30, 2010, 08:38:16 AM
My second tank has now expanded exponentially.  What started as a small ripple has now expanded to lots of ripples on both sides of the tank (where my knees rest while riding) and has expanded forward to where I can barely remove the front latch.

I'm reluctant to submit for a 2nd tank if the same shit is gonna happen again.  >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on November 04, 2010, 02:54:33 AM
It took a year, but I have a new tank, 10/1/10, black with white stripe, on my S2R. It is coated differently than previous tanks, no cost to me. I encourage you to support the AMA efforts to stop the E15 initiative that the corn lobby is pushing for, write the EPA, your legislators. BTW this problem is not just a Ducati problem, other brands are seeing the same thing, it's on the XR forum for example. Until the OEMs get this figured out we do not need more ethanol at the pumps and I'm told it can cause problems with FI, Carbs. I refuse to but a new Ducati until they figure this out. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DEVO! on November 05, 2010, 10:25:43 AM
Called Pro Italia they said bring it in they will take some pictures


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 05, 2010, 10:46:00 AM
I called PI - it seems they are now offering to coat the replaced tanks for $250 using the Caswell product.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Massinova on November 08, 2010, 07:07:53 PM
I called PI - it seems they are now offering to coat the replaced tanks for $250 using the Caswell product.

Speaking of Caswell, I found this DIY:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616792 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616792)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiboy on November 08, 2010, 07:18:37 PM
Sorry but I am not reading the whole thread and I have a couple questions.

I just got my 2008 S2R1000, bought it used with less than 500 miles.

It appears the tank has expanded on the frame (rubber bumpers don't line up) and it has a rub on the key guard.

If I bring it to a Ducati Dealer, even if they did not originally sell the bike, will Ducati give me a new tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 08, 2010, 07:29:34 PM
Sorry but I am not reading the whole thread and I have a couple questions.

I just got my 2008 S2R1000, bought it used with less than 500 miles.

It appears the tank has expanded on the frame (rubber bumpers don't line up) and it has a rub on the key guard.

If I bring it to a Ducati Dealer, even if they did not originally sell the bike, will Ducati give me a new tank?

Yes they will.  I had the same situation and got mine replaced.
Goodluck!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: eyduc on November 08, 2010, 07:37:27 PM
I just got word that my tank replacement was approved!   That was fast!  I only bought the bike a week ago, read the the thread and contacted the local dealer.  The new tank is now on order.  Does this issue happen to all tanks or close to it?  Will I have the same issue with the new tank?  I'm reluctant to use it. I may store it and just find a steel tank.  From what I've read, I need an 02-04 S4 tank and swap my pump.  I'll need the new rear bracket too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Kurt V on November 09, 2010, 07:51:26 AM
Update on my 696 tank. On Monday I get this email from DNA. I am posting the message in full for anyone that wants to use the phone numbers or email address. So 8 weeks after my bike goes in they finally respond to my email requests for help. Just called the dealer who tells me the tank is on my bike and ready to go. Keep in mind they didn't call me, I had to call them.

John Berntsen
 to me
   
show details 11:47 AM (21 hours ago)
   
   from   John Berntsen <John.Berntsen@ducati.com>
to   "kvalent118
date   Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:47 AM
subject   Your Monster 696 Fuel Tank
mailed-by   ducati.com
   
hide details 11:47 AM (21 hours ago)
Dear Kurt,
Thank you for contacting Ducati North America.
We apologize for the delay in responding to you and for the concerns that you have with your Monster 696 fuel tank. We have worked diligently to get your tank expedited. In tracking the order that your fuel tank was a part of, we have learned that the parts order was delivered to Jones Powersports on Friday, November 5th, 2010. We encourage you to contact the dealership to schedule an appointment for installation. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience.

Regards,
John Berntsen

Technical Representative - Customer Service
Ducati North America

10443 Bandley Drive
Cupertino, CA 95014

Tel. 408 343 4431

Fax. 408 716 2696

john.berntsen@ducati.com
www.ducatiusa.com (http://) (http://)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiboy on November 09, 2010, 05:34:29 PM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 09, 2010, 05:37:28 PM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.
They should be able to take photos and the vin and get the process underway.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 09, 2010, 05:45:02 PM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.

Probably some kid who doesn't know what he's talking about. You need the service manager. If the service manager is telling you this, you need to move to NY, NH, or MA. It's pretty well established that all the dealer does is take photos and fill out a form to initiate the process. Geez do all US Ducati dealers have their heads up their asses? You know what I could be a Ducati dealer with my revolutionary new concept of CUSTOMER SERVICE UBER ALLES. Make myself a fortune.
Load that sucker up ina pickemup truck and take it to a dealer who doesn't have his head wedged inside his rectum.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: superjohn on November 10, 2010, 09:26:05 AM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.

I rode mine in and waited for them to finish with it after they got the tank from Ducati. Took all of an hour and a half for the tank replacement. They got everything they needed from me on the previous visit and didn't require the bike stay there. Heck, they even got the tank within a week of ordering it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 10, 2010, 09:34:54 AM
I rode mine in and waited for them to finish with it after they got the tank from Ducati. Took all of an hour and a half for the tank replacement. They got everything they needed from me on the previous visit and didn't require the bike stay there. Heck, they even got the tank within a week of ordering it.

Where/who?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: superjohn on November 10, 2010, 09:55:11 AM
Where/who?

Barnett's Suzuki/Ducati in Raleigh, NC. Some people have reported spotty service, but I never have anything too bad to warrant a complaint. The caveat there is that they forgot to file the claim, and I never followed up so I had to call and remind them to get it, but that was just as much my fault for not following up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 10, 2010, 10:04:48 AM
Good to know.

I think it's helpful for people to post up the names of shops that are doing right and wrong on this issue.

Everyone should get the same deal:  bring your bike in (or send pics with the VIN info), tank ordered, bike brought in after tank arrives and swapped (and info verified if emailed).  That should be the long & short of it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 10, 2010, 05:41:36 PM
If your in the NY area Rockwell in Fort Mongomery has great service.  My tank arrived roughly two weeks from getting my pics taken. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 11, 2010, 11:59:53 AM
Talked to Ben at Coleman's Fairfax today. Whatever DNA yelled at them seems to have worked. My tank is approved for replacement and is being ordered. No deposit necessary and I don't have to leave the bike with them. They asked that I bring the bike in within 2 weeks of the tank arriving and leave it for 24 hrs.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 11, 2010, 12:00:53 PM
Talked to Ben at Coleman's Fairfax today. Whatever DNA yelled at them seems to have worked. My tank is approved for replacement and is being ordered. No deposit necessary and I don't have to leave the bike with them. They asked that I bring the bike in within 2 weeks of the tank arriving and leave it for 24 hrs.

that is much more reasonable.  good to know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: swampduc on November 11, 2010, 05:51:26 PM
Transportation revolution in New Orleans got me a tank in a wk, before I even requested one   [laugh]
they noticed the deformation and took the initiative  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on November 13, 2010, 03:47:03 AM
FYI- New tank approval took a week, and 3 weeks to arrive for a gray one through Redline in VA. Haven't talked to them about coating it yet or trading it in for a Harley when it looks normal again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: aaronb on November 13, 2010, 03:25:13 PM
look what popped up in a facebook banner ad...  anybody know anything about this?

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: csp808 on November 13, 2010, 04:22:56 PM
Looks like someone trying to drum up some buisness perhaps?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 13, 2010, 04:42:55 PM
I am not going to comment on them directly except to say that they are just a law firm that has no interest in Ducati staying around or being solvent or anything.  If you look at the list of their successful lawsuits, they are very good at getting multi-million dollar judgments and settlements (ostensibly from damages).

I want to make this clear:  I am not planning to ask nor demand any damages from Ducati if a suit is filed.  If you sign on as a plaintiff with me, there is no money in it for you, except perhaps cover for simple expense such as showing up in court or a deposition.  All you're going to get out of it is a new, non-defective tank (when ducati makes them), a warranty on it, and the good warm feeling that you participated in getting something good done the right way.

That law firm spends plenty of time looking on forums for people pregnant doging about a manufacturer.  Then, they do a little research to determine if there is a colorable claim, and then they set up an "investigation" --the results of which are just you as a plaintiff suing some company and asking for millions in punitive damages.  

Of course, they don't ask you for any money.  Their lead plaintiffs get paid, sometimes as much as $50 grand, and they get a huge cut of the damages plus their fees paid.

I don't want anyone to impair their legal rights, but I am also trying to approach this with Ducati in a reasonable way.  Ducati has about 1100 employees worldwide, and sells under 40,000 bikes worldwide.  Compare that with their multiple lawsuits against Hyundai, a company with about 200,000 employees worldwide, about 15 different divisions (they make cars, trucks, heavy equipment, machine guns, boats, and so on) and God knows how much revenue.

Ducati make the beast with two backsed up.   They need to make the tanks right.  Do you think you deserve to be paid a few thousand on top of the tank?  More importantly, do you think >I< should be paid 500k - 1million for getting that done for you?   I'll happily take the cash under different circumstances, but Ducati isn't the right defendant for that.  


Ducatizzy, Esq.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 13, 2010, 05:55:49 PM
Maybe you should go after Acerbis or the EPA or maybe the state of Iowa. I'm not inclined to blame Ducati for this. I feel sorry for them that they have to replace everyone's tanks now, must be costing them a bundle. So far I believe they have been doing the right thing. What needs to happen, if Acerbis refuses to reformulate the material the tanks are made from, is for Ducati to hire another plastic tank supplier who will make a tank that is dimensionally stable. Pretty simple really. That's probably the most realistic solution since ethanol ain't goin' away, neither is moisture in the air.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 13, 2010, 06:24:10 PM
Acerbis: you have no relationship on which to sue.
EPA, Iowa: sovereign immunity.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 14, 2010, 03:59:49 PM
Well said ducatiz!

Please let me go on record with my thanks for your efforts on my behalf. I don't want any "damages", just a proper tank for my bike.

-herm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiboy on November 14, 2010, 04:57:07 PM
Are you all keeping your expanded tanks?

I


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 14, 2010, 05:05:48 PM
you cant. they get destroyed, part of the deal.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 14, 2010, 09:08:31 PM
So I stopped by Pro Italia this weekend.  The service desk was busy but one the techs was EXTREMELY helpful and kind and took pictures of the tank and filled out the proper paperwork.  While he was taking pictures the main service person yelled from behind his desk and said that "the tank MUST NOT be touching the frame" in order to submit a successful claim. I found this a bit odd as the front latch is practically impossible to remove and further more, the first tank that was replaced (by them) had no pictures taken an was approved in a week or so.

Needless to say they were going to submit the claim but both they and DNA were "backed up" so I wouldn't have a response on the tank being approved/denied for replacement until at least 3 to 4 weeks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 14, 2010, 11:55:09 PM
has anyone inquried to a metal worker yet about making the newer monster tanks in metal at least the inner tank in metal to avoid the problems with the expanding tanK?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 04:05:41 AM
has anyone inquried to a metal worker yet about making the newer monster tanks in metal at least the inner tank in metal to avoid the problems with the expanding tanK?
What do you mean by inner tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 15, 2010, 05:02:15 AM
Are you all keeping your expanded tanks?

I

you cant. they get destroyed, part of the deal.

the only exception is if you have some special edition tank or something signed (like the SC bikes that are signed by racers).. you need to call Ducati and ask them to do it.  The dealer will drill a hole in the tank on the bottom to make it useless.  BUT YOU HAVE TO ASK BEFORE YOU GET THE SWAP DONE.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 03:16:45 PM
Ducatiz has some competition

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 15, 2010, 03:30:24 PM
Ducatiz has some competition

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)

Derby


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 03:32:09 PM
Derby

you can't call a Derby and not cite your source

 [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 03:33:15 PM
you can't call a Derby and not cite your source

 [roll]
read the damn thread you're in right now mom...

try to stay current will ya? [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
read the damn thread you're in right now mom...

try to stay current will ya? [evil]

oh no

that's not how it works

if he wants to Derby me for not running a search the least he can do is run a search to demonstrate his superiority

besides

any thread over 50 pages is exempt from the "staying current clause"

and

If it isnt in the last 10 pages then I say it's exempt from Derbying


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 03:58:09 PM
oh no

that's not how it works

if he wants to Derby me for not running a search the least he can do is run a search to demonstrate his superiority

besides

any thread over 50 pages is exempt from the "staying current clause"

and

If it isnt in the last 10 pages then I say it's exempt from Derbying

don't make me go all dp on you mom... :-*

it on the previous page. ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 15, 2010, 04:02:01 PM
I am not going to comment on them directly except to say that they are just a law firm that has no interest in Ducati staying around or being solvent or anything.  If you look at the list of their successful lawsuits, they are very good at getting multi-million dollar judgments and settlements (ostensibly from damages).

I want to make this clear:  I am not planning to ask nor demand any damages from Ducati if a suit is filed.  If you sign on as a plaintiff with me, there is no money in it for you, except perhaps cover for simple expense such as showing up in court or a deposition.  All you're going to get out of it is a new, non-defective tank (when ducati makes them), a warranty on it, and the good warm feeling that you participated in getting something good done the right way.

That law firm spends plenty of time looking on forums for people pregnant doging about a manufacturer.  Then, they do a little research to determine if there is a colorable claim, and then they set up an "investigation" --the results of which are just you as a plaintiff suing some company and asking for millions in punitive damages.  

Of course, they don't ask you for any money.  Their lead plaintiffs get paid, sometimes as much as $50 grand, and they get a huge cut of the damages plus their fees paid.

I don't want anyone to impair their legal rights, but I am also trying to approach this with Ducati in a reasonable way.  Ducati has about 1100 employees worldwide, and sells under 40,000 bikes worldwide.  Compare that with their multiple lawsuits against Hyundai, a company with about 200,000 employees worldwide, about 15 different divisions (they make cars, trucks, heavy equipment, machine guns, boats, and so on) and God knows how much revenue.

Ducati make the beast with two backsed up.   They need to make the tanks right.  Do you think you deserve to be paid a few thousand on top of the tank?  More importantly, do you think >I< should be paid 500k - 1million for getting that done for you?   I'll happily take the cash under different circumstances, but Ducati isn't the right defendant for that.  


Ducatizzy, Esq.


Those guys are SF-based.  PM'd you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
don't make me go all dp on you mom... :-*

it on the previous page. ;D

yeah well maybe but still over 50 pages...

Those guys are SF-based.  PM'd you.

see, now that is a proper Derby

damn kids these days just don't take the time to do things right anymore



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 15, 2010, 04:10:55 PM
see, now that is a proper Derby

Huh?  I'm confuzzled.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 04:13:48 PM
Huh?  I'm confuzzled.

Yeah, I'm sober too


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 04:16:48 PM
yeah well maybe but still over 50 pages...

see, now that is a proper Derby

damn kids these days just don't take the time to do things right anymore


c u r r e n t...

cur·rent  (kûrnt, kr-)
adj.
1.
a. Belonging to the present time:


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 15, 2010, 06:33:21 PM
Not to get off topic, but it would appear that the "other" firm has gotten quite aggressive with Google AdWords, do a search for "Ducati Fuel Tank" and you'll see what I mean ... 

Cheers,
Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on November 15, 2010, 07:47:44 PM
Not really going to be ANY opportunity to get a new tank if some schmuck sues Ducati into non-existence.
That's the last thing we need.

I understand there is some element of danger here with the tank expansion, but for pete's sake... it's still just a toy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 15, 2010, 08:10:12 PM
You would think that Acerbis would be aware of the problem by now wouldn't you?  I've been reading about the new Aprilia RSV4 and guess who makes the tank for it - Acerbis - and the 2010 RSV4 tanks are having the exact same problem as the nylon Ducati tanks.  I'm guessing a solution coming from Acerbis is not imminent.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 16, 2010, 02:49:00 AM
Huh?  I'm confuzzled.

Yea, we could tell from your thong wearing, dirt bike riding antics...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 06:05:06 AM
You would think that Acerbis would be aware of the problem by now wouldn't you?  I've been reading about the new Aprilia RSV4 and guess who makes the tank for it - Acerbis - and the 2010 RSV4 tanks are having the exact same problem as the nylon Ducati tanks.  I'm guessing a solution coming from Acerbis is not imminent.

They are aware.  I know Ducati has been doing some testing and I can't imagine that Acerbis isn't doing it for them.  The best solution -- I believe -- would be a coating similar to the Caswell that doesn't present a problem for them.  Caswell works, but it affects their ability to homologate the tank for some reason.  Seems they could find another compatible coating or surface treatment that doesn't have the same issue..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dvyce on November 16, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
I have not read the entire thread so guys pls forgive me if what i am about to ask has already been asked.  Will this tank expansion issue affect all 696's?  Cuz as we speak, mine is inside a crate, inside a container on some ship being shipped across the Atlantic and will arrive mid January.  As for me, I have thrown the idea of seeing any type of dealer should this occur because we do not have any in Ghana.  The closest bike dealer we have is KTM and that in the country next door.  Anyway can someone please help me with my Q?  Thanks a ton


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 16, 2010, 06:44:00 AM
I have not read the entire thread so guys pls forgive me if what i am about to ask has already been asked.  Will this tank expansion issue affect all 696's?  Cuz as we speak, mine is inside a crate, inside a container on some ship being shipped across the Atlantic and will arrive mid January.  As for me, I have thrown the idea of seeing any type of dealer should this occur because we do not have any in Ghana.  The closest bike dealer we have is KTM and that in the country next door.  Anyway can someone please help me with my Q?  Thanks a ton
It seems to affect all plastic tanked bikes when exposed to ethanol fuel.

The actual tank on the 696 is under skins so the effects may not be noticed as quickly as the earlier models.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 16, 2010, 07:34:01 AM
Not really going to be ANY opportunity to get a new tank if some schmuck sues Ducati into non-existence.
That's the last thing we need.

I understand there is some element of danger here with the tank expansion, but for pete's sake... it's still just a toy.

unfortunately the company still sees the warranty route as an economically feasible solution otherwise they would have changed the plastic or what have you by now, but the cost benefit to them of waiting for a few people to try to return the tanks and such and after a 2 year stint its on you then, they are just hedging the numbers and figure that it will cost less to just do warranty repair as each tank is probably only really costing them maybe something like $10 dollars they are pressed out anyway.

if they get sued maybe they will then use differnt plastics and figure out the problem.

basically they have no reason to change the design as its not 100% of the tanks and so far nobody has been killed by the problem its really not that big of a liability.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 07:44:13 AM
I have not read the entire thread so guys pls forgive me if what i am about to ask has already been asked.  Will this tank expansion issue affect all 696's?  Cuz as we speak, mine is inside a crate, inside a container on some ship being shipped across the Atlantic and will arrive mid January.  As for me, I have thrown the idea of seeing any type of dealer should this occur because we do not have any in Ghana.  The closest bike dealer we have is KTM and that in the country next door.  Anyway can someone please help me with my Q?  Thanks a ton

I have several 696 owners on my list.

If your local gasoline has more than 5% ethanol, then you should look into getting the tank coated.  There is a coating here called Caswell's which is (I believe) an epoxy based coating.  Testing and actual use has demonstrated it works, however Ducati can't use it for other reasons.

Doing the coating yourself is easy if you have any experience with tools and have the right ones handy.  Removing the tank isn't hard, you just have to take out the guts (filter, pump,etc) and remove all the metal and filler parts, then mask everything off.

One person I spoke to said coating the bottom of the tank is sufficient because the problem occurs at the bottom of the tank -- ethanol absorbs moisture and sinks.  Since the volume of water is going to be less than 2% the total volume of gasoline, it's a very small contact area where water comes in contract with the surface (and also the hottest area of the tank -- heat + moisture = fast absorption)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 07:45:31 AM
unfortunately the company still sees the warranty route as an economically feasible solution otherwise they would have changed the plastic or what have you by now, but the cost benefit to them of waiting for a few people to try to return the tanks and such and after a 2 year stint its on you then, they are just hedging the numbers and figure that it will cost less to just do warranty repair as each tank is probably only really costing them maybe something like $10 dollars they are pressed out anyway.

I don't know for a fact, but my gut feeling is that they are looking for a solution.  I guess I'll find out soon enough.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 16, 2010, 07:47:28 AM
it seems like so far the only thing that would work 100% is going back to a metal tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 07:57:19 AM
it seems like so far the only thing that would work 100% is going back to a metal tank.

Not possible.  They would have to have the entire bike recertified and re-homologated.  They can't/won't do it.

A coating is the most efficient and cheapest route.  They just have to find one that is compatible with their EPA/DOT/EU requirements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dark_duc on November 16, 2010, 11:32:49 AM
Good to know.

I think it's helpful for people to post up the names of shops that are doing right and wrong on this issue.

Everyone should get the same deal:  bring your bike in (or send pics with the VIN info), tank ordered, bike brought in after tank arrives and swapped (and info verified if emailed).  That should be the long & short of it.

Went to Hansen's BMW / Ducati / Triumph in Phoenix Oregon and had them look at my mildly deformed tank.  They said they hadn't heard any issues with the Monster's tanks, but they took some pics and contacted DNA.  They called me a couple days later to let me know that the claim was approved and a replacement tank was on they way.  Once arriving they said they would only need an hour with the bike to do the swap.  The crew at Hansen's made this a very easy process.   [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 16, 2010, 11:40:22 AM
This may be a derby (and likely is) ... but check out the epic thread on D.MS about this, YEOW

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/55155-tank-problems-yes-no.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/55155-tank-problems-yes-no.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 16, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
Quote
I signed up with the law firm and they contacted me within 24 hours to chat. They are trying to go after Ducati for breach of the warranty contract. Since Ducati is replacing bad tanks with bad tanks they aren't fulfilling their warranty obligations legally.

Unfortunately this seems to be the only way to a permanent fix.

From MS - I guess people are signing up for the class-action suit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 16, 2010, 12:12:15 PM
Went to Hansen's BMW / Ducati / Triumph in Phoenix Oregon and had them look at my mildly deformed tank.  They said they hadn't heard any issues with the Monster's tanks, but they took some pics and contacted DNA.  They called me a couple days later to let me know that the claim was approved and a replacement tank was on they way.  Once arriving they said they would only need an hour with the bike to do the swap.  The crew at Hansen's made this a very easy process.   [beer]

good for them! i bought both my monsters from Mason.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 16, 2010, 12:33:51 PM
From MS - I guess people are signing up for the class-action suit.

Translation: People are signing up to help make attorneys a boatload of money under the guise of altruism.

Cheers,
Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 16, 2010, 01:42:45 PM
Translation: People are signing up to help make attorneys a boatload of money under the guise of altruism.

Cheers,
Adam


Well - playing devils advocate what ELSE is being done? Aside from the replacement of bad tanks with other bad tanks?   

I went in for my 2nd tank this past weekend - my local dealer is now offering to coat the tanks for $250.

I hate to be cynical, but my options are
1) pay dealer to fix a problem the factory can't fix
2) don't do anything and have the problem repeat itself
3) DIY the coating of the tank - i.e. pay to fix a problem the factory can't fix


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 03:20:35 PM
From MS - I guess people are signing up for the class-action suit.

correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.

Translation: People are signing up to help make attorneys a boatload of money under the guise of altruism.

Cheers,
Adam

I hope you're not including me in this.  I'm doing this for no punitive damages and expenses only.  Make ducati fix the problem and cover the expenses of the suit, that's it.  i've spent over 200 hours on this and if they fixed the problem today, i'd be fine with it.  that's 200 hours i could have spent working for clients.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 16, 2010, 03:43:43 PM
correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.


No need for correction. Let's call it "clarification"  :)

You haven't filed a suit so my reference was for the Girard-Gibbs suit. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: csp808 on November 16, 2010, 03:53:52 PM
correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.

I hope you're not including me in this.  I'm doing this for no punitive damages and expenses only.  Make ducati fix the problem and cover the expenses of the suit, that's it.  i've spent over 200 hours on this and if they fixed the problem today, i'd be fine with it.  that's 200 hours i could have spent working for clients.


I think i speak for most of us when i say you've been a class act. I'm greatly appreciative of your efforts and feel better knowing there are guys like you out there in the legal field that are real life down to earth good dudes that try to do the right thing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 16, 2010, 04:03:57 PM
I think i speak for most of us when i say you've been a class act. I'm greatly appreciative of your efforts and feel better knowing there are guys like you out there in the legal field that are real life down to earth good dudes that try to do the right thing.
wait...

you must have 'tizz confused with a human. :P

I kid...he's been working his ass off trying to resolve this with everyone's interest, besides his own, in mind.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 16, 2010, 04:40:21 PM
+1 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 16, 2010, 04:47:07 PM
its unfortunate that the plastic tanks are not working as is,but after seeing the problem on some tanks for a few years now you woul dthink that at least the new bikes coming forward now they would possibly use all new metal tanks. 
yes they would be more expensive whihc you then pass on to the consumer but hte monsters all use the same tanks, the 848 and 1198 and streetfighters all appear to be the same tank, and the hypers are thier own.

in other words it would be good if ducati just thought ahead and went bakc to the metal tanks, but like you said the best economically is a coating that may or may not work long term.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 16, 2010, 09:49:02 PM
correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.

I hope you're not including me in this.  I'm doing this for no punitive damages and expenses only.  Make ducati fix the problem and cover the expenses of the suit, that's it.  i've spent over 200 hours on this and if they fixed the problem today, i'd be fine with it.  that's 200 hours i could have spent working for clients.



Not even a little bit, my comment was directed towards the guys purchasing facebook ads and google adwords in an attempt to drum up business and line their pockets.  You are the other end of the spectrum - keep it up  [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Cheers,
Adam

Girard-Gibbs is stereotype lawyer in all the wrong way.

'Tizz has been working his ass off on this as an enthusiast and I haven't been doing shit since I got him a contact with DNA to see if he could work it out prior to filing.

Too bad DNA and Ducati-sPa can't see that.



+1,000,000


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 16, 2010, 11:05:42 PM
2 things;

1) DNA is basically powerless against the mother company. for whatever reason we arent considered a very important market and the fact that were having problems ( for some ridiculous reason) doesn't concern the mother company that much.

2) Ducati has proven to correct the problem when confronted with it, if anyone is having problems getting new tanks for bonifide tank swelling then thats the dealers problem.  And unless someone can prove damages beyond the tank (swollen tank causes an accident, leaks fuel and destroys something/causes fire etc)  I cant see how any class action suit is going to get additional money for something that the company has tried to correct in good faith. but hey, im no lawyer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 17, 2010, 02:53:01 AM
And unless someone can prove damages beyond the tank (swollen tank causes an accident, leaks fuel and destroys something/causes fire etc)  I cant see how any class action suit is going to get additional money for something that the company has tried to correct in good faith. but hey, im no lawyer.

And there lies the beauty of what 'Tiz is doing.  He isn't going after punitive damages or any of that crap.  He is just trying to get Ducati to come up with, and implement, a viable, permanent solution. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Kurt V on November 17, 2010, 11:18:15 AM
Went to Hansen's BMW / Ducati / Triumph in Phoenix Oregon and had them look at my mildly deformed tank.  They said they hadn't heard any issues with the Monster's tanks, but they took some pics and contacted DNA.  They called me a couple days later to let me know that the claim was approved and a replacement tank was on they way.  Once arriving they said they would only need an hour with the bike to do the swap.  The crew at Hansen's made this a very easy process.   [beer]

My 696 tank warped and started leaking at the fuel pump fitting last August. Dealer approved the new tank under warranty immediately. What they don't tell you about is the back order on the tank. Took 2 friggin months for Ducati to ship a new tank. Wiped out my fall riding season. :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 17, 2010, 01:12:51 PM
Just for sh$%s and giggles, I googled "nylon gasoline leak" and variants using fuel, gas etc. and came up with a lot of hits on automotive sites.  I *think* this might be a more widespread problem than just Ducati tanks...  lots of mysterious leaks in fuel pumps and fuel rail fittings involving nylon bits (at least the threads say they are nylon) - mostly older cars but some newer European cars too.  hmmmm  even some fires.  Some are theorizing it might be ethanol (water) but of course there is no proof.

FUEL RAIL LEAKS NHTSA Defect Investigation #EA04003

    * Status:
      RECALL »
    * Date Opened: February 03, 2004
    * Date Closed: April 23, 2004
    * Recall: Recall #04V110000

Component: Fuel System, Gasoline:Fuel Injection System:Fuel Rail*

Summary: On March 3, 2004, General Motors notified ODI that it was recalling approximately 94,000 MY 1995-97 Oldsmobile Aurora vehicles equipped with 4.0L V8 engines (RPO L47 - vin8 "C") to address concerns with underhood fuel leakage from cracked fuel rails and, in some of the vehicles, cracked fuel return lines. According to GM, the nylon tubing (PA12) used in the fuel rail construction in these vehicles may degrade and crack. GM's supplier attributed the cracking to the combined effects of heat, time, alcohol fuel, fuel pressure cycling, and design stresses.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 01:19:29 PM
Just for sh$%s and giggles, I googled "nylon gasoline leak" and variants using fuel, gas etc. and came up with a lot of hits on automotive sites.  I *think* this might be a more widespread problem than just Ducati tanks...  lots of mysterious leaks in fuel pumps and fuel rail fittings involving nylon bits (at least the threads say they are nylon) - mostly older cars but some newer European cars too.  hmmmm  even some fires.  Some are theorizing it might be ethanol (water) but of course there is no proof.

Bill there are different types of nylon and some are bad about water some aren't.  PA6 just happens to be SUPERbad -- it absorbs water like crazy.

If you have a bad tank and are getting it replaced, and have the capability to drain it, pour hot water into the filler.  No more than half a gallon.  Your tank will increase in size by about 100% overnight.

If I had the capability of a stop-frame video I would set this up as I have a spare tank that I sent out for testing.  I was shocked to see how fast it blew up.  I drained it, and dried it and stuck a hose with flowing air into the filler -- and it's shrunk back now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 17, 2010, 01:45:13 PM
That would be something to see!  I need a beer - no something stronger lol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dark_duc on November 17, 2010, 01:45:32 PM
My 696 tank warped and started leaking at the fuel pump fitting last August. Dealer approved the new tank under warranty immediately. What they don't tell you about is the back order on the tank. Took 2 friggin months for Ducati to ship a new tank. Wiped out my fall riding season. :'(

Luckily, mine didn't take that long.  I just got a call yesterday that the tank was in and it is getting installed today.

Total time from when I went in to get it initially looked at to driving with the new tank = 17 days


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 03:34:08 PM
Given Ducati's funky shipping/parts setup, I think 2 months isn't crazy.  My Acid Yellow S2R tank took 4 months.  I wasn't surprised given the relative scarcity of the color -- the surface still smelt of VOCs


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 17, 2010, 03:56:08 PM
My bike was manufactured as a Dark, but then the tank swelled and leaked so I bought a new gloss black with white stripe replacement. Now the new tank is swelling. I took my bike to Ducpond a few weeks back and they're supposed to be applying for a replacement on my behalf but I haven't heard anything yet. Would I likely receive a Dark tank, or a gloss black one? The gloss black one doesn't fit the frame anymore and is growing close to the ignition, but it doesn't leak at least. My understanding is that the dealer will only keep one tank, and I am only eligible for one replacement. I'd really rather at this point have a red one with a white stripe. This way I could just dry the black one out and let it shrink back to its proper dimension while running the red tank, then when it swells up switch to the black tank. Then when the black tank swells up again I could go back to the red tank that I'd been drying out, etc. Back and forth like that, tricking myself into the perception that I get a new bike every year or so. Don't want to go back to a Dark though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 17, 2010, 04:01:29 PM
My bike was manufactured as a Dark, but then the tank swelled and leaked so I bought a new gloss black with white stripe replacement. Now the new tank is swelling. I took my bike to Ducpond a few weeks back and they're supposed to be applying for a replacement on my behalf but I haven't heard anything yet. Would I likely receive a Dark tank, or a gloss black one? The gloss black one doesn't fit the frame anymore and is growing close to the ignition, but it doesn't leak at least. My understanding is that the dealer will only keep one tank, and I am only eligible for one replacement. I'd really rather at this point have a red one with a white stripe. This way I could just dry the black one out and let it shrink back to its proper dimension while running the red tank, then when it swells up switch to the black tank. Then when the black tank swells up again I could go back to the red tank that I'd been drying out, etc. Back and forth like that, tricking myself into the perception that I get a new bike every year or so. Don't want to go back to a Dark though.
I think they are only able to replace what the bike was built with.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 17, 2010, 04:17:17 PM
I think they are only able to replace what the bike was built with.

awww that's too bad [thumbsdown] :'(
be sending you a new tank to paint then


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 17, 2010, 04:18:40 PM
Bill there are different types of nylon and some are bad about water some aren't.  PA6 just happens to be SUPERbad -- it absorbs water like crazy.

If you have a bad tank and are getting it replaced, and have the capability to drain it, pour hot water into the filler.  No more than half a gallon.  Your tank will increase in size by about 100% overnight.

If I had the capability of a stop-frame video I would set this up as I have a spare tank that I sent out for testing.  I was shocked to see how fast it blew up.  I drained it, and dried it and stuck a hose with flowing air into the filler -- and it's shrunk back now.

your above mentioned test is the same technique we used to do back in the day to increase the fuel capacity on our dirt bikes

except once adding the hot water and letting it sit we would hit it with the air hose to help the expansion

one would think acerbis would understand this phenomenon


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 04:52:44 PM
Ducati has been honoring requests for alternate colours.  Talk to your dealer. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 17, 2010, 06:18:02 PM
I may have missed it but, do we know if the tank will be replaced outside of the 5 year emissions warranty?  Specifically if the tank has already been replaced.  Does the warranty reset from date of the new tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 06:19:27 PM
I may have missed it but, do we know if the tank will be replaced outside of the 5 year emissions warranty?  Specifically if the tank has already been replaced.  Does the warranty reset from date of the new tank?

Ducati has thus far replaced tanks regardless of warranty status, age, mileage, whether tank is painted or subsequent owner.  Some people have had 2 replacements already, I think a few have had 3.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 06:21:41 PM
your above mentioned test is the same technique we used to do back in the day to increase the fuel capacity on our dirt bikes

except once adding the hot water and letting it sit we would hit it with the air hose to help the expansion

one would think acerbis would understand this phenomenon


Those tanks are HDPE, which expands due to heat but not due to water absorption.  You are essentially re-molding the tank by heating and blowing.

Nylon PA6 will absorb water down to very cold temperatures, I don't know the bottom end limit, I ordered a document from the lab on it.  Once it absorbs water it apparently does two things:  1, becomes more elastic and 2, the 'cels' of nylon become bigger, hence the swelling.

Most plastic tanks on dirt bikes and cars are HDPE, not nylon.  Even the Acerbis tanks for dirt bikes are HDPE.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bladecutter on November 17, 2010, 08:45:19 PM
I have to ask:

Are the people who are having their tanks replaced, are your bikes garaged, or out in the elements, or ridden in the foul weather on a regular basis?

I wonder if people who have garaged bikes, that never ride in foul weather, are less likely to have a tank expand, than someone who has their bike sitting outside all year round.

Also, how many people from dry climates, like Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada are needing to have their tanks replaced, vs people from wet areas, like NY, Michigan, New Hampshire, and Washington?

Plus, where do the multiple tank replaced people live, and do their bikes get garaged, live outside, ride in foul weather, etc?
Those ones I'm really curious about.

So far, I don't think I've noticed anyone from Colorado saying they've needed to replace a tank.
Just wondering...

BC.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 17, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
NY Garaged  Never seen rain


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 17, 2010, 09:42:27 PM
OR/NH/ME
always garaged
ridden in all kinds of weather

i think there is a direct connection between how often the bike is ridden (how often fuel sits in the tank) and the severity of the expansion problem.

up until recently i was cycling a tank of fuel almost every day. never had any signs of expansion. but in the last year (as my riding time has diminished) i have started to see some of the signs.

maybe i misunderstand the problem, but this makes sense to me since the fuel is not sitting in the tank long enough to cause mischief.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 17, 2010, 09:46:48 PM
I saw a bike that had sat on the showroom since new get a new tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 18, 2010, 02:54:32 AM
My SC has always been garage kept, both here in DC and in HI before.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on November 18, 2010, 10:32:54 AM
NY Garaged  Never seen rain
How many tanks changed?

OR/NH/ME
always garaged
ridden in all kinds of weather
How many tanks changed?

My SC has always been garage kept, both here in DC and in HI before.
Same question?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: JimmyTheDriver on November 18, 2010, 12:30:57 PM
Just to chime in,

I purchased a 2007 S4R this spring with 4 miles on it.... talk about leftover inventory.

Anyway, it showed major signs of deformation on the tank while sitting on the showroom floor.  So much so that I got them to discount the bike because of the tank, which they later replaced before I even took delivery of the bike.  

Since delivery (with the new tank) I have ridden the bike 3.5k miles, which is at least a couple times a week with a long one or two on the weekends.  Always filled with Northern VA (10% ethanol) 93 octane gas.  The bike is kept in a detached, non-climate controlled garage and the second tank is already showing major signs of deformation.  Ripples, shifting off the bumpers, can hardly unclip it anymore.

So that puts me at needing a third tank in 6 months of ownership.  The first deformed on showroom floor over three years of sitting.  The second deformed over a couple months in a steamy garage over the summer.

-Jimmy

Edit: To the point below my post, it's extremely humid in Northern VA in the summer.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 12:42:34 PM
I have to ask:

Are the people who are having their tanks replaced, are your bikes garaged, or out in the elements, or ridden in the foul weather on a regular basis?

I wonder if people who have garaged bikes, that never ride in foul weather, are less likely to have a tank expand, than someone who has their bike sitting outside all year round.

Also, how many people from dry climates, like Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada are needing to have their tanks replaced, vs people from wet areas, like NY, Michigan, New Hampshire, and Washington?

It's a reasonable assumption that bikes from drier climates will have less replacements needed.

I don't think rain is an issue at all. 

Ethanol wicks moisture from the air.  The easy way to demostrate this is to put some pump gas into a small bottle -- like a liter soda bottle.  Let it sit open in a safe place, like your garage on a high shelf or some place it can't be easily knocked over.  After about 60 days, the ethanol will begin to separate. 

This is the separation with about half a liter of gasoline . I used pump 87 octane from Sunoco, 10% ethanol.  It sat for about 40 days.  It is hard to see in this pic, but the reddish part at the bottom is the ethanol and right on top it is about 1mm of clear fluid--pure water.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/separation.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 18, 2010, 12:54:28 PM
My 2007 S4RS sits in an enclosed garage for most of the week.  She's fair weather weekend queen and mostly sees canyon roads.  89 octane, 10% ethanol is what I use.  I live on Los Angeles CA.

I went in for my 3rd tank this past weekend.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 01:18:20 PM
Wow


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 01:35:05 PM
I forget, do you have the original?

Call ducati cust svc?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 18, 2010, 01:49:06 PM
How many tanks changed?
How many tanks changed?
Same question?

My SC currently has its third tank on it, and it is showing signs of deformation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 18, 2010, 01:55:19 PM
wow so that is what it looks like with the ethanol separating with the water.  

but if that takes something like a few weeks to separate like that, if the gas is constantly shaken, ie you ride the bike it shouldnt separate?  but apparaently it doesn't matter and still does separate out to deform the tanks. strange.

for the older monster tanks it looks like that company out in japan with the alum tanks should be picking up business, yes they are expensive but to not have to deal with the tanks expanding anymore and the hassle may be worth it to some people.

i'm surprised the market for used FI metal tanks is not crazy good for sellers with the people of the older style monsters with plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 02:10:30 PM
Shaking it doesn't remix.  The ethanol/water just sinks again.

My point also that you have no idea what condition the fuel tanks at your station are in, or how often they get refilled


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 18, 2010, 02:28:11 PM
wow so that is what it looks like with the ethanol separating with the water.  

but if that takes something like a few weeks to separate like that, if the gas is constantly shaken, ie you ride the bike it shouldnt separate?  but apparaently it doesn't matter and still does separate out to deform the tanks. strange.

for the older monster tanks it looks like that company out in japan with the alum tanks should be picking up business, yes they are expensive but to not have to deal with the tanks expanding anymore and the hassle may be worth it to some people.

i'm surprised the market for used FI metal tanks is not crazy good for sellers with the people of the older style monsters with plastic tanks.
Turns out that the water doesn't have to separate to be absorbed by the plastic tank. Just the fact that the ethanol is present is enough to increase the rate at which the water is absorbed by the plastic.

You can think of this as a chemistry problem with multiple equilibria:

H2O(air)  ><  ethanol/gas mixture  ><  PA6   (where >< is equilibrium arrows)

If you look at the equilibrium between the H2O(air) and the ethanol/gas mixture, there is a partition coefficient which describes how much water dissolves in the ethanol/gas mixture. This is much higher than the amount of water that dissolves in pure gas (this is why ethanol free gas causes less of a problem). There is a similar equilibrium between the "wet" ethanol/gas mixture and the PA6. When the water enters the plastic, the material swells like a dry sponge that is wetted for the first time. The polyamide 6 (PA6) has lots of amides (as one would expect from its name) which can hydrogen bond with the water, which is why it absorbs it.

My chemistry phd tells me that this is a really shitty material for use in a critical place like fuel tanks, particularly given the desire of the feds to increase the ethanol content. Although I'm not a chem engineer, I think it's likely that the polymer properties are drastically different after exposure to h2o EVEN IF you "dry" it out and it "shrinks back" to its original size. The other thing that I think many people overlook is that the swelling is a 3-D process: you think your tank is bigger because it looks bigger on the outside, but the plastic is really just thicker. So I'd bet many of these tanks don't hold as much gas as they did when they were new and unswollen.

Just my 2cents! ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on November 18, 2010, 03:46:02 PM
...you think your tank is bigger because it looks bigger on the outside, but the plastic is really just thicker. So I'd bet many of these tanks don't hold as much gas as they did when they were new and unswollen.

There goes my silver lining. :-[


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bladecutter on November 19, 2010, 07:23:29 AM
I hate to ask the obvious, but if your bike is going to sit a while, can you just drain the gas into a container, wait for the ethanol to separate, and then pour the ethanol free gas back into the tank, potentially eliminating the issue?

Then again, if you're going to go through all of that, you might as well just leave the tank empty, since its not going to rust internally like a metal tank might.

Sounds like it might be something to do for those who's bikes sit for winter storage, waiting for repair parts, or for any real amount of time? Might help reduce it, even a little bit.

BC.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 19, 2010, 07:28:22 AM
that's an interesting idea, but i believe that other components of the gasoline separate as well as the ethanol..  i don't know enough about it though, you could be onto something.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 19, 2010, 07:33:53 AM
I hate to ask the obvious, but if your bike is going to sit a while, can you just drain the gas into a container, wait for the ethanol to separate, and then pour the ethanol free gas back into the tank, potentially eliminating the issue?

Then again, if you're going to go through all of that, you might as well just leave the tank empty, since its not going to rust internally like a metal tank might.

Sounds like it might be something to do for those who's bikes sit for winter storage, waiting for repair parts, or for any real amount of time? Might help reduce it, even a little bit.

BC.

what would be cool is do that in gallon or larger sizes in your garage and then sell the "ethanol/water" free gasoline to other ducati folks for 1-2 dollars more per gallon.  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BK_856er on November 19, 2010, 09:17:02 AM
The thing about liquids and their interaction with the solid world is that mixtures can behave very differently compared to the individual components.  Dry gas or dry gas with ethanol might not be a problem, but gas with ethanol and some (inevitable, variable) moisture could be a troublemaker.

I would not be surprised if you could fill the tank with either pure water or pure ethanol and there would be minimal swelling or distortion over an extended time period.  However, make a mixture of the liquids and it could be a whole different ball game.  I don't think separation of the liquid components due to solubility is a factor.  In fact, the presence of ethanol or other alcohols will increase the solubility of water in the mix (and that could be the root of the problem).

If someone can send me some virgin PA6 I will setup an experiment to measure the mass and dimensional changes vs. time in various liquids. ;D

BK (yet another ducati riding phd chemist with two replaced tanks)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 19, 2010, 09:38:30 AM
so, now i need to retrain my brain to empty the tank instead of fill and stabilize when i put it up for the winter..... [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 19, 2010, 09:47:27 AM
I would not be surprised if you could fill the tank with either pure water or pure ethanol and there would be minimal swelling or distortion over an extended time period.  However, make a mixture of the liquids and it could be a whole different ball game.  I don't think separation of the liquid components due to solubility is a factor.  In fact, the presence of ethanol or other alcohols will increase the solubility of water in the mix (and that could be the root of the problem).

Already tested. 

Adding pure ethanol= no effect. 

Adding water (room temp) = slight effect (tank swells slightly after sitting for a week)
Adding water (90degF) = almost immediate effect.  tank swells almost immediately.
Adding water (150degF) = tanks swells up like a balloon within a few hours.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BK_856er on November 19, 2010, 10:33:27 AM
Already tested. 

Adding pure ethanol= no effect. 

Adding water (room temp) = slight effect (tank swells slightly after sitting for a week)
Adding water (90degF) = almost immediate effect.  tank swells almost immediately.
Adding water (150degF) = tanks swells up like a balloon within a few hours.

That's too funny.  Thanks for sharing those results.

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 19, 2010, 11:56:30 AM
If someone can send me some virgin PA6 I will setup an experiment to measure the mass and dimensional changes vs. time in various liquids. ;D

BK (yet another ducati riding phd chemist with two replaced tanks)

Glad to know I'm not the only nerd around here! Sounds like you're a strong believer in the "6 months at the bench will save you 6 hours in the library" philosophy. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there has been some work done on looking at the effect of ethanol/fuel mixtures on PA6. I hope to get a chance to nerd out on this over the holidays so I can spew all sorts of literature-supported scientific goodness about what a crappy choice PA6 is for ducati tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 19, 2010, 12:26:17 PM
Looks like Girard Gibbs filed the suit:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf (http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on November 19, 2010, 01:10:36 PM
I hate to ask the obvious, but if your bike is going to sit a while, can you just drain the gas into a container, wait for the ethanol to separate, and then pour the ethanol free gas back into the tank, potentially eliminating the issue?

Then again, if you're going to go through all of that, you might as well just leave the tank empty, since its not going to rust internally like a metal tank might.

Sounds like it might be something to do for those who's bikes sit for winter storage, waiting for repair parts, or for any real amount of time? Might help reduce it, even a little bit.

BC.

Besides the unknown aspect ducatiz stated, ethanol is one of the ingredients used to build octane.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 19, 2010, 01:24:14 PM
Looks like Girard Gibbs filed the suit:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf (http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf)

And there we have it.  There have been a bunch of turds on .MS all screaming to put Ducati out of business because of this tank issue.  Pretty sad when you think about it...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 19, 2010, 01:35:09 PM
Crap.  I guess they really put down the pedal. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 19, 2010, 01:37:03 PM
If you read through the thread on .MS, I think the one guy who was so adamant about it might have been connected with the attorney's office. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BK_856er on November 19, 2010, 01:49:27 PM
Glad to know I'm not the only nerd around here! Sounds like you're a strong believer in the "6 months at the bench will save you 6 hours in the library" philosophy. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there has been some work done on looking at the effect of ethanol/fuel mixtures on PA6. I hope to get a chance to nerd out on this over the holidays so I can spew all sorts of literature-supported scientific goodness about what a crappy choice PA6 is for ducati tanks.

Greetings, fellow molecular nerd!  Yes, I try to avoid the library because I only trust my own findings.  My second PhD is from the School of Hard Knocks  [bang]

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 19, 2010, 02:22:55 PM
Crap.  I guess they really put down the pedal. 
This is gonna suck for everyone in the long run.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 19, 2010, 02:24:13 PM
This is gonna suck for everyone in the long run.

It very well could. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 19, 2010, 02:39:00 PM
Jeez what a fiasco [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 19, 2010, 03:39:30 PM
how is this stuff not happening to every single bike manufacturer? honda/yamaha/suzuki sells way more bikes than ducati ever does.

you would think that with so many of their bikes on the market the expanded tank issue would be going crazy with them, almost every single sport bike has a plastic tank, and most of the new bmw bikes do also, they should be having the same problems as ducati, what do they know that ducati doesn't?   

and if they are using a different plastic why isnt' ducati using the same one?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on November 19, 2010, 08:31:32 PM
Crap.  I guess they really put down the pedal. 

Just thinking out loud.  Could the manufacturers counter sue the EPA since the real culprit is government mandated alcohol poisoning of our fuel?  Just looking for a silver cloud.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on November 19, 2010, 09:01:07 PM
how is this stuff not happening to every single bike manufacturer? honda/yamaha/suzuki sells way more bikes than ducati ever does.

you would think that with so many of their bikes on the market the expanded tank issue would be going crazy with them, almost every single sport bike has a plastic tank, and most of the new bmw bikes do also, they should be having the same problems as ducati, what do they know that ducati doesn't?   

and if they are using a different plastic why isnt' ducati using the same one?

I don't typically help my competition. Maybe Honda figured it out, but I can't imagine why they'd share.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2010, 05:53:54 AM
Just thinking out loud.  Could the manufacturers counter sue the EPA since the real culprit is government mandated alcohol poisoning of our fuel?  Just looking for a silver cloud.

Howie, I don't think that would roll.  Ethanol has been in gasoline for many years now (as has various other interesting substances.. mtbe, toulene, etc) so it's really incumbent on the manufacturers to make sure their vehicles are compatible.  Acerbis/Ducati here had access to fuel but apparently did not test sufficiently or someone didn't ask the question about PA6 and water in the tank.

how is this stuff not happening to every single bike manufacturer? honda/yamaha/suzuki sells way more bikes than ducati ever does.

you would think that with so many of their bikes on the market the expanded tank issue would be going crazy with them, almost every single sport bike has a plastic tank, and most of the new bmw bikes do also, they should be having the same problems as ducati, what do they know that ducati doesn't?   

and if they are using a different plastic why isnt' ducati using the same one?

Plastic is not plastic. 

PA6 is not the same as HDPE and totally different from PEX.

There are at least half a dozen plastics I am aware of being used in fuel tanks. 

IIRC Acerbis makes PA6, PEX and HDPE tanks depending on the application.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 20, 2010, 07:26:46 AM
Make 'em outta pyrex glass. Nip it in the bud.



 :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on November 20, 2010, 07:49:58 AM
Howie, I don't think that would roll.  Ethanol has been in gasoline for many years now (as has various other interesting substances.. mtbe, toulene, etc) so it's really incumbent on the manufacturers to make sure their vehicles are compatible.  Acerbis/Ducati here had access to fuel but apparently did not test sufficiently or someone didn't ask the question about PA6 and water in the tank.

<snip>

Yeah, I figured that.  I was thinking more in lines of an industry wide and maybe even consumer class action suite since the ethanol is playing havoc on all kinds of equipment, old and new and does not reduce pollution as claimed.  Maybe then they will get the ethanol out. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 20, 2010, 12:20:20 PM

Plastic is not plastic. 

PA6 is not the same as HDPE and totally different from PEX.

There are at least half a dozen plastics I am aware of being used in fuel tanks. 

IIRC Acerbis makes PA6, PEX and HDPE tanks depending on the application.

is there any data on the other plastics and their reaction to ethanol? or, to put it another way, has Acerbis considered (and if not, why not) using a different plastic for these tanks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 20, 2010, 12:55:15 PM
Plastic is not plastic. 

PA6 is not the same as HDPE and totally different from PEX.

There are at least half a dozen plastics I am aware of being used in fuel tanks. 

IIRC Acerbis makes PA6, PEX and HDPE tanks depending on the application.
[/quote]

sure plastic may not be plastic that makes sense, but you would think that ducati would have seen from teh feedback that the current plastic is not working and told the 3rd party to change the plastic to something else. 

or at the very least order a tank from rival bikes and test them to see which one is the best plastic and just use the same stuff.

Mr I, DUH!! i'm not saying that other manufacturers have to "help" ducati, but there is no law against ducati ordering a few plastic tanks from competitors to then figure out what plastic they are using and reverse engineer it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on November 20, 2010, 02:33:57 PM
Interesting that the lawsuit mentions several times of a replacement aluminum tank in the works.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 20, 2010, 05:49:14 PM
This is gonna suck for everyone in the long run.

How so?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 20, 2010, 05:59:33 PM
How so?
Just my take...

Ducati makes a cash settlement...the girard-briggs firm cashes in...

and every member of the class action gets $100....the actual number yet to be determined.

The problem eventually gets solved, but the current members of the class get no real resolution because they now have no claim.

Now you have thousands of people that hate the brand.

The best solution is the one 'tizz was working towards.

Ducati keeps the owners motos safe and pretty by replacing swelled tanks until the problem is resolved.

It's a rare situation when anyone but the lawyer gets much out of the situation...just sayin'



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 20, 2010, 06:31:26 PM
If the class is certified, you can always opt out and not be bound by the terms of the settlement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 20, 2010, 06:41:55 PM
If the class is certified, you can always opt out and not be bound by the terms of the settlement.
I understand that.

At that point Ducati falls back on the 5 year emissions warranty and someone that actually likes their bike, except for the plastic tank, is screwed.

The only one that will get anything of real value from this type of suit is the law firm.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 20, 2010, 08:45:20 PM
Just my take...

Ducati makes a cash settlement...the girard-briggs firm cashes in...

and every member of the class action gets $100....the actual number yet to be determined.

The problem eventually gets solved, but the current members of the class get no real resolution because they now have no claim.

Now you have thousands of people that hate the brand.

The best solution is the one 'tizz was working towards.

Ducati keeps the owners motos safe and pretty by replacing swelled tanks until the problem is resolved.

It's a rare situation when anyone but the lawyer gets much out of the situation...just sayin'


Good point.  I hope these lawyers are sensible and just make it right instead of bringing the house of cards down.  I personally don't see how after spending some $15k on a bike (rounding number) they can't clear it up considering Ducati sells around 30 to 40k of bikes a year, or so I've heard.  I wont buy another Ducati with a plastic tank unless I know it's fixed.  Both my Ducs are metal tanks for that reason.  Just couldn't see my old S2r suffer so much we had to part ways.
 
Now what was the best solution they were working towards? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 21, 2010, 01:19:13 AM
So if Mr gobbstopper's lawsuit gets filed and they win

what is the projected/assumed effect on the current tank replacement system in place now?

if it kills it

would it be more cost effective to purchase a second plastic tank

and

implement your own swelling/shrinking maintenance schedule

or

mod a metal tank to fit?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 21, 2010, 03:00:36 AM
I wouldn't recommend the 2 tank cycling method to keep a decent tank on the bike. Every time it swells/shrinks, the physical properties of the plastic change. Who knows what sort of safety problems that could lead too...imagine a bulge on the bottom of a freshly-filled tank bursting while you're cooking it through the canyons at a spirited paceTM. Future DMFers will be saying, "Mother went out riding a ball of flames!"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 21, 2010, 03:20:27 AM
I wouldn't recommend the 2 tank cycling method to keep a decent tank on the bike. Every time it swells/shrinks, the physical properties of the plastic change. Who knows what sort of safety problems that could lead too...imagine a bulge on the bottom of a freshly-filled tank bursting while you're cooking it through the canyons at a spirited paceTM. Future DMFers will be saying, "Mother went out riding a ball of flames!"

 [laugh]

metal tanked monster riders have gone out in a similar fashion...who was that australian guy who burned down several hundred acres?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 05:28:59 AM
Interesting that the lawsuit mentions several times of a replacement aluminum tank in the works.

I am curious where you read that.  Paragraph 21 claims that Ducati developed an aluminum tank in 2006 "behind the scenes" but no other place that I see outside of that mention.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 21, 2010, 05:43:31 AM
Just my take...

Ducati makes a cash settlement...the girard-briggs firm cashes in...

and every member of the class action gets $100....the actual number yet to be determined.

The problem eventually gets solved, but the current members of the class get no real resolution because they now have no claim.

Now you have thousands of people that hate the brand.

The best solution is the one 'tizz was working towards.

Ducati keeps the owners motos safe and pretty by replacing swelled tanks until the problem is resolved.

It's a rare situation when anyone but the lawyer gets much out of the situation...just sayin'



I am one of the many folks on ducati.ms that has an SC and has complained about this issue.  Iz knows who I am.  I am also not interested in being a part of this lawsuit, because I don't want to see Ducati harmed. Having said that, we're all pretty frustrated that it take this kind of thing to force Ducati to do anything about solving the tank problem (no, replacing is not solving).

I do not understand this post.  Are we saying Ducati can agree to a cash settlement without fixing the problem?  And if so, should they ever solve the problem, those that accepted the settlement has no further claim?  That makes no sense whatsoever, but I suppose that is how the legal world turns.

Truthfully, if Ducati would do something like that, cashing out versus addressing the problem, screwing us over in the process, what little loyalty I have left for them would be gone.  

I agree with Iz's approach too, although it has been YEARS now, and Ducati has not come up with a solution that is FINANCIALLY ACCEPTABLE TO THEM.  So for now, they have been stringing us out.  I suspect Iz has been feeling that too.  The problem for us is that we have no guarantee that Ducati will continue to keep replacing the tanks.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 05:46:29 AM
I am one of the many folks on ducati.ms that has an SC and has complained about this issue.  Iz knows who I am.  I am also not interested in being a part of this lawsuit, because I don't want to see Ducat harmed.  Having said that, we're all pretty frustrated that it take this kind of thing to force Ducati to do anything about solving the tank problem (no, replacing is not solving).

I do not understand this post.  Are we saying Ducati can agree to a cash settlement without fixing the problem?  And if so, should they ever solve the problem, those that accepted the settlement has no further claim?  That makes no sense whatsoever, but I suppose that is how the legal world turns.

Truthfully, if Ducati would do something like that, cashing out versus adressing the problem, screwing us over in the process, what little loyalty I have left for them would be gone. 

The law firm could accept a cash settlement from Ducati with a promise to fix the tanks later, if it is accepted by the court.

It is commonly done. 

Regardless of the solution, you won't see a new tank for 1-2 years.  They aren't sitting in a warehouse somewhere.  The new tanks don't exist.  They might be on the way, but nothing I have access to says they have new ones yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 21, 2010, 06:04:11 AM
The law firm could accept a cash settlement from Ducati with a promise to fix the tanks later, if it is accepted by the court.

It is commonly done. 

Regardless of the solution, you won't see a new tank for 1-2 years.  They aren't sitting in a warehouse somewhere.  The new tanks don't exist.  They might be on the way, but nothing I have access to says they have new ones yet.

But I would guess such a settlement would still assure that the plaintiffs would get said fixed tanks should they ever come around.  So there really isn't a situation that one would settle for $100 and exclude himself from a new tank in the process, is there?

I think the demand that Ducati disclose the problem to any potential buyer is the most difficult one for Ducati, if such an order can be enforced.  You would think it would effectively kill sales until a fix is done.  Can they survive not selling any bikes here for the  1-2 years before a new tank is released?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 21, 2010, 06:58:05 AM

mod a metal tank to fit?

definitely a metal tank, if you can find one. the only thing needed is the different hinge assembly, and they go on.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 21, 2010, 07:04:07 AM
definitely a metal tank, if you can find one. the only thing needed is the different hinge assembly, and they go on.

well

I have one

I promised it to Jesus for Lu's store but if this gobstopper make the beast with two backs is going to ruin the tank replacement program

I'll keep my wrecked tank on my bike and mod the new tank for Jess' 800

can one of you lawyers spell it for me in plain english if this guy winning the lawsuit for .ms will make the beast with two backs up what the dealerships are doing now for tank replacement?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 07:25:42 AM
No guarantee of anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on November 21, 2010, 08:41:50 AM
What's the current feel on Startron and Stabil?
I tried Stabil in my S2R and after a couple miles, the bike got used to it and runs pretty much the same.  The first couple miles it kinda gurgled and popped a bit, not very noticeably different than normal though.
Might these additives actually prevent the tank warpage?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 21, 2010, 09:24:22 AM
look at it this way, everyone is saying its the lawyers fault and if this ruins ducati its the attorneys that make out and harming ducati is not good.

ok here is how i see it.  ducati as a corp makes more than any of us combined, right now they are in the drivers seat if you have a bike, sure your spent 15-40k on a bike and if you have to complain about the tank, big deal that isn't much money to them if you never buy a bike from them again, what maybe you buy 1 or2 more bikes again that isn't a lot of money to a huge corp like theirs.

so for now ducati sees fit to just string things along replace cheap tanks, etc maybe things will die down we can go at our own pace to figure out a new tank solution.

right now the situation isn't bad enough for ducati to really get off their asses and fix the problem.  do you really think it would take over 1-2 years (that they have been warranty replacing tanks) for them to fix the problem if there was an injunction saying they couldn't sell the bike anymore in the US?

i personally think ducait would come up with a solution within weeks if a court said no more bikes being sold until you fix this and couch it as a safety issue. 

companies have a way of moving very fast when their asses are on the line, right now ducati is not doing a damn thing becasue honestly their asses aren't on the line yet.

ducati could have stopped all of this when they started seeing the replacement tanks being done, and lit a fire under their own asses and used a different plastic, but for some reason they have not.  maybe its cost related, etc, but the fact is now they are going to have to fix things because their asses may be on the line.

we can all like ducati a lot, and i do too, but sometimes when someone is just doing a half assed job you have to call them out on it and tell them simply "quit dicking around and do it the right way".  that is what a lawsuit is really for, its the equivalent of that saying.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 10:05:47 AM
The question isn't whether Ducati should provide a solution.

The question is how much money should a disinterested 3rd party get for doing that.  And also how much money should you be paid by Ducati for selling a bad tank?

Their suit wants restitution paid over getting a good tank.  At $100 per tank, that will be over $5mil.  And for what? Then add that to the bill rate of their 3 attorneys working this.

I've been on it over a year, I have less experience and they've used all of my info that I've posted.  And they still need 3 guys on it?   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 21, 2010, 11:10:47 AM
Does anyone think it possible that Ducati may pull out of the US market like Alfa did? Not really sure why Alfa left. I know Peugeot pulled out inexplicably as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 21, 2010, 11:15:06 AM
Anything is possible.

I think their market here is too large to simply walk away from.

I'll guarantee the price of a new bike won't go down.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 21, 2010, 11:32:22 AM
I don't want any money.  I just want a tank that works like it should.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 21, 2010, 04:01:51 PM
The question isn't whether Ducati should provide a solution.

The question is how much money should a disinterested 3rd party get for doing that.  And also how much money should you be paid by Ducati for selling a bad tank?

Their suit wants restitution paid over getting a good tank.  At $100 per tank, that will be over $5mil.  And for what? Then add that to the bill rate of their 3 attorneys working this.

I've been on it over a year, I have less experience and they've used all of my info that I've posted.  And they still need 3 guys on it?   

a disinterested 3rd party may make money off of this, but it would have never even come to this if ducati would fix the problem asap, apparently to them the owners of many monsters doesn't matter to them.

so sometimes you have to bring in a 3rd party to makes someome do something that they should have done.

look nobody likes when someone else gets money for something that we think they don't deserve, but that person isn't needed if people just do their damn jobs, and in this case ducati has been doing a half assed job at best.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 21, 2010, 04:19:02 PM
a disinterested 3rd party may make money off of this, but it would have never even come to this if ducati would fix the problem asap, apparently to them the owners of many monsters doesn't matter to them.

so sometimes you have to bring in a 3rd party to makes someome do something that they should have done.

look nobody likes when someone else gets money for something that we think they don't deserve, but that person isn't needed if people just do their damn jobs, and in this case ducati has been doing a half assed job at best.
looks like we disagree on that.

a third party is needed when a manufacturer turns their back and walks away.

Ducati had not done that. I'd suggest that in the world of manufacturing there is rarely a quick solution to an issue like this particularly when their are governmental regulations and certifications involved.

Ducati was spending big money trying to keep people happy while a long term solution was worked out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 04:39:24 PM
a disinterested 3rd party may make money off of this, but it would have never even come to this if ducati would fix the problem asap, apparently to them the owners of many monsters doesn't matter to them.

the assumption you've made (and a lot of people have made) is that a solution to this problem was just sitting around or already done.  it isn't.

developing a wholly new tank requires ducati to go back and re-homologate the tank for every model it will be used on.  that means before they have the manufacturing and distribution cost, they have to develop models, have them tested, refined, retested and then they get to the manufacturing.

a lot of people keep harping about getting a metal tank, but i can pretty much safely say that will not happen.  going to a metal tank would change the bike immensely.  people think that because they can buy one from DP or whomever that it means it would be easy for Ducati to do the same thing.  They can't.  As a manufacturer, they are bonded to putting homologated vehicles on the road.  Those tanks you get are NOT homologated, which is why they often say "for off road use only."  Same with most of the "upgrades" you buy from DP etc.  Ducati legally CANNOT put them on a bike as a manufacturer.

A metal tank will change the profile of the bike in such a way it cannot be homologated.  Another plastic tank will be used.

Quote
so sometimes you have to bring in a 3rd party to makes someome do something that they should have done.

look nobody likes when someone else gets money for something that we think they don't deserve, but that person isn't needed if people just do their damn jobs, and in this case ducati has been doing a half assed job at best.

Please go back and look at the beginning of this thread.  I have been talking with Ducati for over a year now.  They have been doing their jobs, and there may be a lot of internal politics at Ducati that has prevented moving forward. 

However, they have been replacing EVERY single tank that comes in the door.  Dealers have been giving people problem, but not Ducati.  I have no idea how much money they've wasted doing that, especially when people continue carping about it.  I don't know of any manufacturer that will do something like this.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 21, 2010, 05:50:53 PM
Not only that, but they probably have contractual obligations with Acerbis. You can't just decide to change the tank. All this lawsuit will do is increase the price of the bikes. That's it. This is the "sue first and ask questions later" mentality. Tizz, can you do something about this firm using all your work in their suit without your consent? I guess since this is a public forum, that there's very little you can do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 21, 2010, 05:52:36 PM
Going further, could Ducati use you as character witness to show that they truly have been doing their best at replacing the defective tanks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 21, 2010, 05:54:31 PM
Well...

he is quite a character.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on November 21, 2010, 06:08:21 PM
Quite simply if the numbers don't add up Ducati could decide to pull out of the US if the numbers don't add up.  Alpha and Peugot aren't the only automotive companies that pulled out of the US market, add Fiat, Citroen, Renault to the count.  VW almost left in '92.  Will they pull out because of the Gobbstopper's lawsuit?  Dunno, but it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Ducatiz knows much more than the legal issues here.  He also understands the EPA and DOT certification issues Ducati has to go through to fix these problems.  Listen to him.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 21, 2010, 06:11:41 PM
I'm NOT an Attorney and certainly NOT a manufacturer but I went through 2 tanks on my S2R in less than a year.  Fortunately our dealer in DFW was great and replaced them both no questions asked.  I have to think that doing just that was more expensive, if it happens regularly, than just creating a new tank.  In any event I hope this gets resolved quickly and not bump the price of the new Strada to the Stratosphere, at least not before I buy one.  [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on November 22, 2010, 04:41:25 AM
I am curious where you read that.  Paragraph 21 claims that Ducati developed an aluminum tank in 2006 "behind the scenes" but no other place that I see outside of that mention.



Oopse- only mentioned twice, not several times. Can't remember which section now, think it was pg 8(?).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 22, 2010, 11:58:20 AM
I just read the complaint.  Interesting . . .  :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 22, 2010, 12:17:38 PM
well hopefully ducati will fix this problem sooner not later, yes its not easy changing fuel tanks and such, but they have to come up with a solution sooner not later.

i for one will not get a 2010 ducati which is now on sale at local dealers because of this very tank issue popping up.  like i said, my money to ducait really doesn't matter because its chump change to them in the long run.  about the only people they will get to buy the new bikes are new people because older customers may wait this one out, which when you think about it, all they should care about is new customers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 22, 2010, 12:24:14 PM
...which when you think about it, all they should care about is new customers.

old customers buy parts and at some point upgrade (or replace) their bikes.

plus, current customers join ducati clubs and wear ducati gear, which is seen by non-owners who may be convinced to buy one.

i know my buddy bought an S2R just like mine after trying mine out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on November 22, 2010, 12:33:03 PM
I wonder if Ducati did themselves more harm than good by changing out tanks.  That is an admission of a problem and should make this suit a slam dunk.

I work in an design and manufacturing company, and I still can't believe it is more expensive to redesign and make a new plastic tank than performing all these goodwill replacements, multiple times per bike.

I doubt any of the major bike brands actually make the tanks either.  It is an outside supplier (maybe only 1 or 2 in the world), so this should not be rocket science.


mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 22, 2010, 12:42:00 PM
I wonder if Ducati did themselves more harm than good by changing out tanks.  That is an admission of a problem and should make this suit a slam dunk.

I work in an design and manufacturing company, and I still can't believe it is more expensive to redesign and make a new plastic tank than performing all these goodwill replacements, multiple times per bike.


I don't think they did any harm.  If anything, it shows a costly attempt to keep bikes in running shape while they seek a solution.

I believe the problem in finding a replacement is two fold:  1, alternative materials are not as easy to homologate and/or paint to the same quality as the original and 2, the original material would be just fine if they could use some sort of barrier coating for the inner layer which would not prevent the original tank from being homologated.

The main materials used for gas tanks are layered HDPE and PEX.

HDPE is not finishable to the same quality.

PEX is more problematic to finish. 

I don't know of any other materials being used in gas tanks besides PA6. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 22, 2010, 01:08:09 PM

I don't think they did any harm.  If anything, it shows a costly attempt to keep bikes in running shape while they seek a solution.

I believe the problem in finding a replacement is two fold:  1, alternative materials are not as easy to homologate and/or paint to the same quality as the original and 2, the original material would be just fine if they could use some sort of barrier coating for the inner layer which would not prevent the original tank from being homologated.

The main materials used for gas tanks are layered HDPE and PEX.

HDPE is not finishable to the same quality.

PEX is more problematic to finish. 

I don't know of any other materials being used in gas tanks besides PA6. 

To play devil's advocate for a minute, why hasn't my 10+ year old Falco tank (Plastic, awesome finish) and/or my Sprint ST's tank had any adhesion / expansion issues?  Both plastic, both ethanol fuel, etc.  More genuine curiosity than anything... Keep up the good fight  [thumbsup]

Cheers,
Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 22, 2010, 01:25:21 PM

I believe the problem in finding a replacement is two fold:  1, alternative materials are not as easy to homologate and/or paint to the same quality as the original and 2, the original material would be just fine if they could use some sort of barrier coating for the inner layer which would not prevent the original tank from being homologated.


i imagine another issue is getting a new material tank certified as OEM (or equivalent) for the purposes of EPA/NTSB/...not to mention California compliance.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 22, 2010, 01:34:18 PM
While reading my latest copy of RRW - they have a small column on new 2011 models - two of them being the 1198 and the 1198SP - aside from the difference in suspension between the base and SP model.  The SP model also gets a larger tank (4.75-gallon vs. 4.1-gallon) and...drumroll please....an ALUMINUM fuel tank as opposed to a "composite tank" found on the base model.

So if you don't want any tank expansion problems on your next Duc - just fork out the cash for the $22K MSRP on the SP model and you'll be set!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 22, 2010, 01:45:04 PM
Couldn't they just design some drop in fuel cells?  It could cure the problem and have the benefit of an added safety factor.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 22, 2010, 01:48:36 PM
While reading my latest copy of RRW - they have a small column on new 2011 models - two of them being the 1198 and the 1198SP - aside from the difference in suspension between the base and SP model.  The SP model also gets a larger tank (4.75-gallon vs. 4.1-gallon) and...drumroll please....an ALUMINUM fuel tank as opposed to a "composite tank" found on the base model.

So if you don't want any tank expansion problems on your next Duc - just fork out the cash for the $22K MSRP on the SP model and you'll be set!

IIRC, the aluminum tanks on the SP models are so they can homologate them for competition, correct?

Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 22, 2010, 01:56:46 PM
To play devil's advocate for a minute, why hasn't my 10+ year old Falco tank (Plastic, awesome finish) and/or my Sprint ST's tank had any adhesion / expansion issues?  Both plastic, both ethanol fuel, etc.  More genuine curiosity than anything... Keep up the good fight  [thumbsup]

Cheers,
Adam

I don't know, what are they made of?

My guess is that those might be blown HDPE with some kind of external hand-applied coating.  I know the Cagiva Elefants had this kind.  It was a huge pain in the ass to finish, but they were very lightweight.

Alternatively, maybe they coated them.  Bear in mind emissions regulations have changed DRASTICALLY in 10 years...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 22, 2010, 03:21:18 PM
Who can make a nice aluminum tank for my 2007 S4RS?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Triple J on November 22, 2010, 03:28:11 PM
Who can make a nice aluminum tank for my 2007 S4RS?

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

I think these would work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 22, 2010, 04:50:58 PM
http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

I think these would work.
Maybe with an old style pump and an added external pressure regulator.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mhanis on November 22, 2010, 09:24:09 PM
http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

I think these would work.

Those friggin' things are beautiful.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 22, 2010, 09:27:25 PM
dam that's expensive.  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 22, 2010, 09:58:01 PM
dam that's expensive.  :o

so's an OEM plastic tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 23, 2010, 09:41:35 AM
so's an OEM plastic tank

But the OEM tank comes painted - this thing you have to pay $90 to have it shipped + you gotta pay for the paint and/or painter!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Triple J on November 23, 2010, 10:59:06 AM
Maybe with an old style pump and an added external pressure regulator.

They make an injected and a carbed model...there's more??  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 23, 2010, 11:26:13 AM
But the OEM tank comes painted - this thing you have to pay $90 to have it shipped + you gotta pay for the paint and/or painter!

I can't defend the shipping costs, but a couple of cans of VHT Matte Black paint is pretty cheap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 23, 2010, 01:25:00 PM
so the lawsuit? any of you guys?

I just think he's not including enough people.
The government for mandating ethanol
The lobbyist for pushing it
The ethanol producers for damages to the tanks and systems
The stations that didn't refuse it or offer options


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 23, 2010, 01:29:16 PM
so the lawsuit? any of you guys?

Which lawsuit are you talking about?  The one that was filed?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 23, 2010, 01:51:57 PM
I just think he's not including enough people.
The government for mandating ethanol
The lobbyist for pushing it
The ethanol producers for damages to the tanks and systems
The stations that didn't refuse it or offer options

You can't sue those people. Ducati is the low hanging fruit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 23, 2010, 02:15:29 PM
They make an injected and a carbed model...there's more??  ???

The pump from the S*R versions is different. More like SBKs that mount on the flange. I don't think it will slip right in to the bracket in an earlier steel tank. Also the pressure regulator is in the tank/flange like the SBKs. You'd have to add an external one like on the pre plastic tank models.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 23, 2010, 02:36:47 PM
The pump from the S*R versions is different. More like SBKs that mount on the flange. I don't think it will slip right in to the bracket in an earlier steel tank. Also the pressure regulator is in the tank/flange like the SBKs. You'd have to add an external one like on the pre plastic tank models.



So what I'm thinking is that no one makes a direct replacement tank made of aluminum, steel, iron, copper, or bronze.  Sounds like a direct replacement tank made of metal really is unobtanium.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 23, 2010, 03:11:56 PM
You can't sue those people. Ducati is the low hanging fruit.

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/122643-texans-seek-industry-legal-protection-from-higher-ethanol-use- (http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/122643-texans-seek-industry-legal-protection-from-higher-ethanol-use-)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 23, 2010, 03:53:35 PM
FOund this through DucatiMiami

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 23, 2010, 04:13:26 PM
Raux, if you flip back through the thread, you'll find that it was discussed (and is still being discussed) starting a coupla pages ago.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 23, 2010, 04:15:01 PM
Raus, if you flip back through the thread, you'll find that it was discussed (and is still being discussed) starting a coupla pages ago.
oh, sorry. DucatiNewsToday apparently posted DucatiNews from Yesterday ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 23, 2010, 07:37:50 PM
The pump from the S*R versions is different. More like SBKs that mount on the flange. I don't think it will slip right in to the bracket in an earlier steel tank. Also the pressure regulator is in the tank/flange like the SBKs. You'd have to add an external one like on the pre plastic tank models.

but... you can use the earlier pump and filter for the s2r models.

bookmarked the page.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 24, 2010, 03:47:32 AM
but... you can use the earlier pump and filter for the s2r models.

bookmarked the page.
I don't think so.

You would still need the flange to block off the hole...

the flange comes with a pump and all the goodies for about $1800.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: redxblack on November 24, 2010, 06:35:20 AM
So what I'm thinking is that no one makes a direct replacement tank made of aluminum, steel, iron, copper, or bronze.  Sounds like a direct replacement tank made of metal really is unobtanium.

Anyone with the startup capital and willingness to go into fabrication could make some bank - especially if they could get Ducati to license them as DP parts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 24, 2010, 07:11:16 AM
I don't think so.

You would still need the flange to block off the hole...

the flange comes with a pump and all the goodies for about $1800.

i didn't see on the site where it said if the monster tank had the flange style fuel pump, or the older. i assumed not.

which doesn't mean i am right....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 24, 2010, 07:26:55 AM
I don't think so.

You would still need the flange to block off the hole...

the flange comes with a pump and all the goodies for about $1800.

4k

for a "beater" gas tank




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 24, 2010, 08:18:14 AM
so no one is making a metal tank that you can direct swap all the parts from the plastic tanks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 24, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
i didn't see on the site where it said if the monster tank had the flange style fuel pump, or the older. i assumed not.

which doesn't mean i am right....
You're talking the aluminum? I was talking OEM.

I don't think the S*R  pump will work unless it's installed in the factory flange.

None of us have seen how they mount the pump in the a/m aluminum tanks...

so we're both probably wrong. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: JimmyTheDriver on November 24, 2010, 08:57:51 AM
Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 24, 2010, 09:09:15 AM
Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/)
[laugh] [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 24, 2010, 10:15:53 AM
Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/)

I saw that one posted on FB yesterday.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 28, 2010, 09:22:10 PM
Oh boy.   [popcorn]

I am on the doorstep of getting my tank replaced, and saw this last week.  It certainly does place the fault at the feet of Ducati and Acerbis.  If it's proven that Ducati willingly manufactured tanks without taking into account the fuel composition, then they are liable for much more than replacements.  In fact, I can recall seeing E10 in fuel stations in 2000 or 2001.  There was also considerable talk of ethanol (e85) and biofuels (not as a common fuel however) when gasoline was up near $3/gal.

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.

Sorry, Ducati.  If I am offered the 'necessary' Termignonis to get the bike to run right, need to re-gear for proper running, and contend with distorting fuel tanks, it may be my last Ducati.  At least new. . .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on November 28, 2010, 09:55:29 PM

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.


It's not cheaper for them to provide multiple tanks per bike instead of building one that didn't do this.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 28, 2010, 10:12:41 PM
today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.

that means that when we have a problem and take it to our dealer, and our dealer contacts ducati, ducati contacts that third party to make the tank.

im betting theres some maaaaajor behind the scenes crap flinging going on between ducati and whoever makes the tanks over this issue. ducati probably isnt paying for replacement tanks/labor and whoever is making the tanks is probably falling over themselves trying to figure out how to make proper tanks.

dont know for sure. but makes sense right?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:37:55 AM
Oh boy.   [popcorn]

I am on the doorstep of getting my tank replaced, and saw this last week.  It certainly does place the fault at the feet of Ducati and Acerbis.  If it's proven that Ducati willingly manufactured tanks without taking into account the fuel composition, then they are liable for much more than replacements.  In fact, I can recall seeing E10 in fuel stations in 2000 or 2001.  There was also considerable talk of ethanol (e85) and biofuels (not as a common fuel however) when gasoline was up near $3/gal.

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.

I am going to have to disagree with you on that last point.  As far as I understand, it was Acerbis' responsibility to test the tanks with fuel in Ducati's markets.  That doesn't change who you have to go to for a new tank or satisfaction though, but I would not characterize their actions as "greed driven" especially in light of the fact that they are replacing gas tanks for out-of-warranty bikes and bikes owned by subsequent purchasers (non-original owners).

And that is me, the attorney with my finger on the trigger for a (second) lawsuit against Ducati.

If you look at their actions since this whole thing started, I see a company either fighting with itself or running around with cranio-rectal inversion, but trying to do something positive.

I agree there is some dumb-assery involved given the prevalence of ethanol in gasoline in the USA, and Ducati has the legal responsibility to ensure their tanks are compatible.  But I don't see it as greed. 

Hopefully this/these lawsuit(s) will give them the kick in the ass they need to make public their plans for long term.  They can't replace these tanks forever.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:38:43 AM
today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.

Don't mean to be rude, but did you just crawl out from under your rock?   ;D

The tanks have ACERBIS stamped on them underneath. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:42:46 AM
It's not cheaper for them to provide multiple tanks per bike instead of building one that didn't do this.

I think that's not a given.

In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

1.  Find a coating that will seal properly and not affect homologation

OR

2.  Pay everyone some amount of money to get their newly-replaced tanks coated by the dealer with anything they want -- individual owners are not bound by homologation requirements.

OR

3.  Come up with a new formulation of nylon or some other plastic that has the same external properties and does not affect homologation

#1 and #2 are cost effective, #3 is probably cost-prohibitive.

My gut feeling is that the most expensive part of the tank manufacture is the painting.  Spinning up nylon in a rotomold isn't particularly pricey per-tank.  They already have the molds and at this point, it is just a material (nylon) cost. 

The problem for them is that nylon pa6 is EXCELLENT for molding these shapes and painting.  Other forms of plastic such as HDPE that are commonly used for tanks are not easily painted.   HDPE is the standard for car gas tanks now and it simply cannot be painted to the level of finish.  PEX is also used, but it is far more expensive and harder to paint (Cycleworks makes a PEX hi-cap tank and you can read his comments about the paint issues. great material but harder to work with and more expensive than Nylon).



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on November 29, 2010, 06:06:20 AM
today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.



I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 06:22:51 AM
I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt

yeah, it's been that way since about '92-93.  I forget what year.  I know the bevel and pantah frames were weld inhouse.  but even the pantah cases were cast by Empressa (sic?).  Heads come in cast but unfinished, they cut the valves and chambers at the factory.  fairly typical.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on November 29, 2010, 07:12:29 AM
I think that's not a given.

In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

Not what I was saying. I was saying Ducati making a perfect tank right off the bat vs the current multiple tanks and lawsuit(s) would have been cheaper. AKA people never having the problem to begin with would have been cheaper.

Hillbilly was saying this current situation was motivated by greed. I vote it's not.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 29, 2010, 10:40:53 AM
I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt

I know this, but you all miss my point.

 with everyone getting upset at ducati and the pending lawsuits. the buck doesn't stop at ducati.  if our brakes were make the beast with two backsed up would we be upset at ducati or brembo? who would be getting sued then? wouldnt  our energies be better spent fighting against acerbis for a permanent fix while talking to ducati to get our temporary fix?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 11:47:36 AM
I know this, but you all miss my point.

 with everyone getting upset at ducati and the pending lawsuits. the buck doesn't stop at ducati.  if our brakes were make the beast with two backsed up would we be upset at ducati or brembo? who would be getting sued then? wouldnt  our energies be better spent fighting against acerbis for a permanent fix while talking to ducati to get our temporary fix?


The buck does indeed stop with Ducati.

They are the only company you have a contractual or otherwise relationship with as a buyer.  You bought the bike from Ducati and they warranted it. 

No one has any relationship with Acerbis or Brembo regardless that they made the tank and brakes.  They are part and parcel of the bike.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: fastwin on November 29, 2010, 01:51:07 PM
I still don't get it. Acerbis has been making plastic tanks for years. How could they have make the beast with two backsed up this bad. For Christ sake they are in the plastic tank manufacturing business. Don't they know what goes in their product and the changes in gasoline all over the world? Gas is nowhere close to what it was 10-20 years ago. I think Acerbis is the one living under a rock. What about the other bike companies that they make tanks for? Have they been having the same problems as Ducati? I honestly haven't heard.

I have cheap old plastic 1-5 gallon gas cans at home and at my farm. They are always full of gasoline and I have never ever had any problems with them even with today's shitty ethanol laced gas. How is it my cheap ass old gas cans are fine and the expensive Duc replacement tanks for my S2R1000 and Sport 1000 crap out in a matter of months? My original tanks (I have not had them replaced) have some minor swelling but I think the reason they haven't totally crapped out is because I am a faithful Sta-Bil user and I use the long term storage double dose treatment. I personally think it has helped.

Like I said before, I just don't get it. >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 02:49:27 PM
I still don't get it. Acerbis has been making plastic tanks for years. How could they have make the beast with two backsed up this bad. For Christ sake they are in the plastic tank manufacturing business. Don't they know what goes in their product and the changes in gasoline all over the world? Gas is nowhere close to what it was 10-20 years ago. I think Acerbis is the one living under a rock. What about the other bike companies that they make tanks for? Have they been having the same problems as Ducati? I honestly haven't heard.

Acerbis' primary market has been offroad bikes with tanks made of HDPE.  This nylon material is the first use of its kind that I know of.  Gasoline in Europe currently has 0% or 5% ethanol depending on grade, but MOST places don't use it at all.  France is the only country with 10% ethanol in gasoline and that is very recently.

Acerbis makes nylon tank for MV, Triumph, KTM and others.  Yes, they are now showing up with issues.

Quote
I have cheap old plastic 1-5 gallon gas cans at home and at my farm. They are always full of gasoline and I have never ever had any problems with them even with today's shitty ethanol laced gas. How is it my cheap ass old gas cans are fine and the expensive Duc replacement tanks for my S2R1000 and Sport 1000 crap out in a matter of months? My original tanks (I have not had them replaced) have some minor swelling but I think the reason they haven't totally crapped out is because I am a faithful Sta-Bil user and I use the long term storage double dose treatment. I personally think it has helped.

Like I said before, I just don't get it. >:(

that tank is probably blow molded HDPE.  it's the gold standard for gasoline, but you can't paint it to a finish like a Ducati gas tank.

The under-seat tank on a Hypermotard 1100 is HDPE. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 29, 2010, 03:57:01 PM
<snip>

that tank is probably blow molded HDPE.  it's the gold standard for gasoline, but you can't paint it to a finish like a Ducati gas tank.

 
Who says?

Get me a blow molded HDPE tank...

I'd love to prove you wrong. ;)

The only issues with painting any plastic is adhesion. There are materials to solve that. Now if the adhesion issues are due to the material 'sweating' fuel, as with PEX, all bets are off.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 03:58:45 PM
Who says?

Get me a blow molded HDPE tank...

I'd love to prove you wrong. ;)

The only issues with painting any plastic is adhesion. There are materials to solve that. Now if the adhesion issues are due to the material 'sweating' fuel, as with PEX, all bets are off.

what I 'have been told' is that mass producing HDPE tanks to the same aesthetic specification as the current nylon tanks is cost prohibitive and hard to do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 29, 2010, 04:07:28 PM
what I 'have been told' is that mass producing HDPE tanks to the same aesthetic specification as the current nylon tanks is cost prohibitive and hard to do.
Cost prohibitive?

They've sold you a bill of goods counselor....just sayin'.

While I'm not a manufacturing engineer, I'd know the surface quality of anything molded is better than a weldment. The labor costs of manufacturing/finishing steel tanks is cost prohibitive.

With all the money they saved from not producing steel tanks the added cost would still be cheap.

That's where the cost accountants make enginerds look bad and cause people to believe the company is greedy.

And 'hard to do'? I'm a painter...it isn't hard. It's like anything else... 90% process and 10% talent.

Get me a job with Acerbis...I'll show them how easy it is. ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:40:54 PM
Cost prohibitive?

They've sold you a bill of goods counselor....just sayin'.

no, i didn't get that from Ducati, I got it from other sources.

the issue with HDPE tanks is that they expand and contract by design during hot and cold as a function of the material.  Nylon tanks do not expand (except when exposed to water).  They are actually VERY dimensionally stable when heated.  Take an HDPE tank, fill it with gasoline, heat it a little and shake it.  It will begin to deform.  Do the same with a Nylon tank, and it won't.  Obviously, you have venting on both, but we are talking about "worst case scenario." 

HDPE also has other issue with EPA's SHED testing which make it less ideal, but apparently the under-seat tank on the HMT is HDPE (but it's unpainted!)

Quote
While I'm not a manufacturing engineer, I'd know the surface quality of anything molded is better than a weldment. The labor costs of manufacturing/finishing steel tanks is cost prohibitive.

With all the money they saved from not producing steel tanks the added cost would still be cheap.

That's where the cost accountants make enginerds look bad and cause people to believe the company is greedy.

And 'hard to do'? I'm a painter...it isn't hard. It's like anything else... 90% process and 10% talent.

Get me a job with Acerbis...I'll show them how easy it is. ;D



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: fastwin on November 29, 2010, 07:21:33 PM
Really interesting stuff said here. [thumbsup] Reason 1,518 why I love this forum! [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 29, 2010, 08:46:44 PM
I am going to have to disagree with you on that last point.  As far as I understand, it was Acerbis' responsibility to test the tanks with fuel in Ducati's markets.  That doesn't change who you have to go to for a new tank or satisfaction though, but I would not characterize their actions as "greed driven" especially in light of the fact that they are replacing gas tanks for out-of-warranty bikes and bikes owned by subsequent purchasers (non-original owners).

And that is me, the attorney with my finger on the trigger for a (second) lawsuit against Ducati.

If you look at their actions since this whole thing started, I see a company either fighting with itself or running around with cranio-rectal inversion, but trying to do something positive.

I agree there is some dumb-assery involved given the prevalence of ethanol in gasoline in the USA, and Ducati has the legal responsibility to ensure their tanks are compatible.  But I don't see it as greed. 

Hopefully this/these lawsuit(s) will give them the kick in the ass they need to make public their plans for long term.  They can't replace these tanks forever.



Well, perhaps not 'entirely' greed, but Ducati is holding to part and parcel of the NHTSA law which states that a fuel supply component, when found faulty will be replaced up to 5 years after initial date of purchase.  I believe this is for motorcycles only, (and if I were diligent, I'd find the source of that data, but I believe it's accurate).

Either way, the downside is that the replacement tanks will deform again in NA, given our dicey fuel recipe.  After that, it's buyer beware, because those tanks won't be cheap for the owners to buy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 29, 2010, 10:11:11 PM
ok,.......so 696/1100 style.

internal tank made of whatever is best able to handle the E10 (or other) issues

external skin made of whatever will a)paint well b)stand up to normal wear and tear c)mold to fit as needed.

<going to go wait by the phone for the job offer from DNA...>


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 04:49:47 AM
Well, perhaps not 'entirely' greed, but Ducati is holding to part and parcel of the NHTSA law which states that a fuel supply component, when found faulty will be replaced up to 5 years after initial date of purchase.  I believe this is for motorcycles only, (and if I were diligent, I'd find the source of that data, but I believe it's accurate).

Either way, the downside is that the replacement tanks will deform again in NA, given our dicey fuel recipe.  After that, it's buyer beware, because those tanks won't be cheap for the owners to buy.

Ducati is replacing tanks long after the 5 year/ 18,000 mile warranty is expired.  My bike is an '05 S2R and well over the mileage and it was replaced no questions.

Ducati is also replacing tanks for 2nd purchasers. 

I believe there will be a solution forthcoming, just not overnight.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 30, 2010, 05:03:35 AM
no, i didn't get that from Ducati, I got it from other sources.

the issue with HDPE tanks is that they expand and contract by design during hot and cold as a function of the material.  Nylon tanks do not expand (except when exposed to water).  They are actually VERY dimensionally stable when heated.  Take an HDPE tank, fill it with gasoline, heat it a little and shake it.  It will begin to deform.  Do the same with a Nylon tank, and it won't.  Obviously, you have venting on both, but we are talking about "worst case scenario." 

HDPE also has other issue with EPA's SHED testing which make it less ideal, but apparently the under-seat tank on the HMT is HDPE (but it's unpainted!)


Steel expands and contracts with temperature too. Dimensionally it expands uniformly. Are you saying HDPE expands otherwise?

I understand Ducati's, or any manufacturers reasoning for moving away from steel for tanks. It does seem that with all the talk of aluminum being the replacement on SBKs, also a poor choice IMO for ethanol fuel unless coated, and the failure of the contractor to deliver a serviceable product this whole thing wasn't particularly well thought out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 07:05:46 AM
Steel expands and contracts with temperature too. Dimensionally it expands uniformly. Are you saying HDPE expands otherwise?

Steel expands and contracts but it is a limited contraction and the rigidity of the material prevents the structure from contracting beyond its original shape except in the presence of immense vacuum.

HDPE can contract beyond the original shape.  That's why you will see a plastic gas can with the sides shrunk in when it gets cold.  That doesn't happen on steel containers.

The way I understand paint is that it can handle limited expansion and stretch, but any significant contraction will cause problems.

Either way, the likelyhood of an HDPE replacement tank coming is unlikely.  I think a coating is more likely, they just have to find one that works for everyone involved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 30, 2010, 07:18:29 AM
Steel expands and contracts but it is a limited contraction and the rigidity of the material prevents the structure from contracting beyond its original shape except in the presence of immense vacuum.

HDPE can contract beyond the original shape.  That's why you will see a plastic gas can with the sides shrunk in when it gets cold.  That doesn't happen on steel containers.

The way I understand paint is that it can handle limited expansion and stretch, but any significant contraction will cause problems.

Either way, the likelyhood of an HDPE replacement tank coming is unlikely.  I think a coating is more likely, they just have to find one that works for everyone involved.
Are HDPE fuel tanks as thin as gas cans?

Wouldn't the material thickness affect the uncontrolled expansion to some degree?

Paint can have more elasticity than you'd believe. They add a 'flex' additive to paint used on urethane bumpers so they can take deformation without cracking.

That said...it appears to be academic at this point.

I just hope that cool heads prevail on both sides of the suit/s so everyone's best inteest is served.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 08:42:47 AM
Are HDPE fuel tanks as thin as gas cans?

Wouldn't the material thickness affect the uncontrolled expansion to some degree?

Oo!  Oo!! I know this one, Kotter!

A motorcycle gas tank has to be able to pass crash testing.  This is one area where bike tanks differ from cars -- well, the type of testing I mean.

Nylon can go pretty thick and still have an immense amount of flexibility.  HDPE gets stiffer and stiffer as you thicken it.  I am hypothesizing here, but something tells me once HDPE gets thick enough to prevent the expansion/contraction that it doesn't have enough flexibility.

You can hit the nylon tanks with a hammer all day and not only will it not dent, you won't ever break it.  HDPE will shatter.  They have a type of "layered" HDPE but I don't know enough about it.


Quote
Paint can have more elasticity than you'd believe. They add a 'flex' additive to paint used on urethane bumpers so they can take deformation without cracking.

That said...it appears to be academic at this point.

I just hope that cool heads prevail on both sides of the suit/s so everyone's best interest is served.

amen


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 30, 2010, 04:25:37 PM
..........In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

1.  Find a coating that will seal properly and not affect homologation

OR

2.  Pay everyone some amount of money to get their newly-replaced tanks coated by the dealer with anything they want -- individual owners are not bound by homologation requirements.

OR

3.  Come up with a new formulation of nylon or some other plastic that has the same external properties and does not affect homologation.......

I am not sure I totally buy into this homologation argument.  Why can't DP come up with a "high performance" tank, either plastic or metal, as an aftermarket part just as they have with the 1198S?  That 1198S aluminum tank probably did not have to go through this homologation exercise.  Ducati can sell this aftermarket tank for say $1600, and also offer a one time "promotion" where if you trade in your current tank, you get the new one for free.  Sure it is a "wink wink" deal, but wouldn't that solve the problem?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 05:38:11 PM
I am not sure I totally buy into this homologation argument.  Why can't DP come up with a "high performance" tank, either plastic or metal, as an aftermarket part just as they have with the 1198S?  That 1198S aluminum tank probably did not have to go through this homologation exercise.  Ducati can sell this aftermarket tank for say $1600, and also offer a one time "promotion" where if you trade in your current tank, you get the new one for free.  Sure it is a "wink wink" deal, but wouldn't that solve the problem?
Sorry you don't buy it.

You can spend a year doing what I've done and figure it out for yourself.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 30, 2010, 06:05:16 PM
Sorry you don't buy it.

You can spend a year doing what I've done and figure it out for yourself.

What I meant was, yes, if you were to try to pass on the DP aluminum tank as a replacement tank for the 1198S, you run into this homologation problem.  But if you get the same DP aluminum tank as an aftermarket part, your problem is solved.  Now maybe it is a leap of faith to think Ducati would offer you that aluminum tank for free, just to make the problem go away.  But if that could be done, couldn't it be done for all the models? 

Heck, I'd accept a DP coated tank as a high performance aftermarket option, if it won't expand, and if it were free.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on November 30, 2010, 11:17:32 PM
What I meant was, yes, if you were to try to pass on the DP aluminum tank as a replacement tank for the 1198S, you run into this homologation problem.  But if you get the same DP aluminum tank as an aftermarket part, your problem is solved.  Now maybe it is a leap of faith to think Ducati would offer you that aluminum tank for free, just to make the problem go away.  But if that could be done, couldn't it be done for all the models? 

Heck, I'd accept a DP coated tank as a high performance aftermarket option, if it won't expand, and if it were free.

If Ducati was to manufacture an aluminum tank as a DP part it would be just what you said, an aftermarket part, not an OEM replacement part.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 04:45:48 AM
What I meant was, yes, if you were to try to pass on the DP aluminum tank as a replacement tank for the 1198S, you run into this homologation problem.  But if you get the same DP aluminum tank as an aftermarket part, your problem is solved.  Now maybe it is a leap of faith to think Ducati would offer you that aluminum tank for free, just to make the problem go away.  But if that could be done, couldn't it be done for all the models?  

Heck, I'd accept a DP coated tank as a high performance aftermarket option, if it won't expand, and if it were free.

The aftermarket parts (such as most of the stuff in the DP catalogue) is not homologated and most of it renders the bike illegal for road use.  In practice, this isn't an issue because the cop pulling you over has no idea you have HC pistons and a kevlar gas tank.  But Ducati cannot sell a bike (nor swap under a warranty agreement or settlement) a homologated part with a non-homologated one.

You can pay a dealer to do it, but that is not Ducati doing it, that is the dealer acting as your agent.  

If Ducati was to manufacture an aluminum tank as a DP part it would be just what you said, an aftermarket part, not an OEM replacement part.

this hits the nail on the head:  Ducati cannot swap your factory tank with a non-homologated variety under a repair/settlement swap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on December 01, 2010, 05:50:29 AM
.......this hits the nail on the head:  Ducati cannot swap your factory tank with a non-homologated variety under a repair/settlement swap.

I do understand what you having been saying all along on this Iz.  Like many others, probably yourself included, I am just frustrated that this homologation technicality is making it so difficult to resolve this issue.  I for one would forego the whole "repair/settlement swap" process, if DP were to offer an aftermarket coated tank, at a one time, one per customer deal of $5.  I realize it is a hopeless fantasy, since it doesn't relieve Ducati of any liability, and with this ongoing litigation, they would seek a formal settlement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 01, 2010, 06:58:17 AM
Can someone explain why homologation is even an issue with my S4RS?  Is there a Monster racing series somewhere?  If so, couldn't Ducati use non-homologation approved REPLACEMENT tanks in markets that don't have that series?  The S4RS isn't even a current model, so it would seem that if a series did exist, all the bikes have already met the requriements with the factory tanks delivered on factory bikes.  A one time rrecall type replacement on a non-current model should not be an homologation issue for a racing series I'm not even sure exists.

Is there even such a Monster racing series in the USA?

Even so, it would seem Ducati should be more concerned about public safety, not to mention the good will of their street riding market, than they are about racing (and don't even get me started on the flaming voltage regulators and engines that won't even run at anything under 2000 rpm).

What brings in more revenue, street bikes or racing?

Seems that Ducati needs to bite the bullet and fix this thing.

I don't get it, but then, I don't follow racing either.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 07:04:45 AM
Probably "certification" is a better word.  US DOT/NHTSA for crash profile and SHED testing with EPA.

EU has similar bodies. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mhanis on December 01, 2010, 08:10:16 AM
ok,.......so 696/1100 style.

internal tank made of whatever is best able to handle the E10 (or other) issues

external skin made of whatever will a)paint well b)stand up to normal wear and tear c)mold to fit as needed.

<going to go wait by the phone for the job offer from DNA...>

Is this a question or a statement of fact? As an 1100 owner I have thought of this exact same thing; did Ducati "fix" the problem on the newer Monsters by using the above as a solution?




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 08:29:27 AM
Is this a question or a statement of fact? As an 1100 owner I have thought of this exact same thing; did Ducati "fix" the problem on the newer Monsters by using the above as a solution?




I have 696 owners on my list.

Open the tank and look underneath.  If you see a "recycle" triangle that has "PA6" in the middle, then no.  If you see anything else, please let us know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on December 01, 2010, 10:11:50 AM
I have 696 owners on my list.

Open the tank and look underneath.  If you see a "recycle" triangle that has "PA6" in the middle, then no.  If you see anything else, please let us know.

This is what's on the underside of my m1100 tank


(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rllout/skins/skins006.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 10:14:16 AM
This is what's on the underside of my m1100 tank


(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rllout/skins/skins006.jpg)

that's it "PA" is the same as PA6. 

wow.  I haven't seen that "USA" stamp before now, I am going to ask some of my friends in Europe what they have.

thanks for the pic



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 01, 2010, 11:06:11 AM
So if they used something other than PA6, we would not see this issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 11:08:17 AM
So if they used something other than PA6, we would not see this issue?

I can't say for sure.  PA6 can be treated or coated which eliminates the problem as well, which is why people have success with the Caswell product.

Other polymer materials have similar issues, so "IT DEPENDS" is the right answer.

Hypothetically, they could use the same tanks with a coating and everything is good to go. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 01, 2010, 11:30:49 AM
anyone use this stuff?

http://www.primrose.com/content/view/156/31/ (http://www.primrose.com/content/view/156/31/)

sounds pretty cool wondring if it will work when put into that separated fuel coke bottle that the one poster put up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 01, 2010, 04:00:11 PM
Sounds similar to Stabil to me...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on December 01, 2010, 04:27:58 PM
Is this a question or a statement of fact? As an 1100 owner I have thought of this exact same thing; did Ducati "fix" the problem on the newer Monsters by using the above as a solution?




it was a question/suggestions.

however, as has been stated already, a non homologated tank is really not one of our options. but it sounds like a good idea for future tanks..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 01, 2010, 06:48:59 PM
How about Ducati coming up with a retrofit that would allow them to replace our plastic tanks with the previously used steel tanks?  It seems to me that would be a relatively easy permanant fix.  Wouldn't the previous steel tanks already have all the necessary certifications?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 01, 2010, 07:02:07 PM
but very expensive to make.

ithink the older metal tanks if you had to replace them new were something like 1800$ from a ducati dealer in the US.

best bet would be for the older monster plastic tank owneres to look for someone selling the metal tanks in good condition and then refurbish them and such and put them on, but like someone else said when you are done with getting all the parts to make it work it could work out to be around 1k-1.5k dollars to have it right.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 01, 2010, 07:03:52 PM
Sure, but look at the MSRP for our plastic tanks.  The metal tanks were used in production for years, so the cost to Ducati could not be that prohibitive.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 03:35:35 AM
Sure, but look at the MSRP for our plastic tanks.  The metal tanks were used in production for years, so the cost to Ducati could not be that prohibitive.

-Jeff
The tooling for the steel tanks wouldn't add to the cost as it already exists...maybe.

The labor for a steel tank is what promoted the switch.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 05:12:09 AM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.

I would love to stop having to type this.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 05:17:20 AM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.

I would love to stop having to type this.



Maybe if you typed s l o w e r.  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on December 02, 2010, 09:26:45 AM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.
 ;D

And for those who are wondering, Steel and Aluminum are both metal.  And - Yes, it will probably be a coating similar to the Caswell stuff (and others) mentioned throughout the thread.

 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 02, 2010, 10:24:40 AM
I suggest going back to the metal tank. Woops, I guess you didn't type it slow enough.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on December 02, 2010, 11:27:11 AM
Just got authorization from DNA that my tank will be replaced.  Pretty easy process overall.  My dealer was great, took some photos and no hassles.

I just hope that the new tank fixes the issue.  It would suck majorly if it happened again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 02, 2010, 11:38:20 AM
Just got authorization from DNA that my tank will be replaced.  Pretty easy process overall.  My dealer was great, took some photos and no hassles.

I just hope that the new tank fixes the issue.  It would suck majorly if it happened again.

Good luck with that.

I'm waiting for my third tank to arrive at the dealer.

I just don't understand why they don't use a metal tank.  Something like steel, or aluminum maybe.  I don't know, maybe it's just me.   [cheeky]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on December 02, 2010, 11:47:02 AM

I just hope that the new tank fixes the issue.  It would suck majorly if it happened again.

How exactly is a new tank, made the same way and with the same material going to fix the issue?

Unless you mean "fix the issue" TEMPORARILY...then YES...it will "fix" the issue :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 02, 2010, 01:47:41 PM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.

I would love to stop having to type this.

Then stop typing it.  I gave up sifting through this thread around page 60 in favor of keeping an eye on the concise update thread and did not see anything there about no metal replacements.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 01:48:59 PM
Then stop typing it.  I gave up sifting through this thread around page 60 in favor of keeping an eye on the concise update thread and did not see anything there about no metal replacements.

-Jeff

thanks for the reality check, jeff.  i'll update the other thread.. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 02, 2010, 02:45:27 PM
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 02, 2010, 03:19:51 PM
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF)

Well, isn't that interesting! An investigation into deforming/leaking tanks after 4 years of complaints. Who'd a thunk NHTSA was so fast.

/snark


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on December 02, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
Well, isn't that interesting! An investigation into deforming/leaking tanks after 4 years of complaints. Who'd a thunk NHTSA was so fast.

/snark
But just in time for the lawsuit. Hmmmmmmmmmm......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 03:34:25 PM
There were 5 complaints 4 years ago.  Nhtsa will wait until there are enough complaints when no one has been injured.

I've had 2 meetings with them over the last 9 months.

But just in time for the lawsuit. Hmmmmmmmmmm......

ODI opened the investigation on 11/04, Girard Gibbs filed on 11/18.  I don't think it was in time for the lawsuit, perhaps the lawsuit was in time for the investigation...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 04:13:53 PM
One thing for certain...

all the players are lawyers.

Coincidence?  [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 04:37:57 PM
One thing for certain...

all the players are lawyers.

Coincidence?  [evil]

well, we were all fresh out of crank old fusspots.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 02, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
well, we were all fresh out of crank old fusspots.

  [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 05:51:48 PM
well, we were all fresh out of crank old fusspots.
I doubt that...

I'm only one of millions.

You're just pissed that you can't dispute Arlo's theory. :-*

  [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap]
I used to like you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 02, 2010, 05:56:21 PM
I used to like you.

No you didn't. 

  :-*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 02, 2010, 06:02:19 PM
thanks for the reality check, jeff.  i'll update the other thread.. [thumbsup]

We appreciate what you do.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 03, 2010, 01:15:31 AM
seems to me that the solution is simple

fuel tank has just become a consumable maintenance item

just like hoses, brakes, tires, and valve adjustments

you can either drain it after each ride as part of your daily routine and extend the life of it

or

let it swell up and get a new tank with new paint every couple of years

for free

seems like a damn nice service plan at no cost to me


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on December 03, 2010, 06:24:44 AM
Yea, a service plan that ends after 5 years.  I'd like to hope my monster will last me longer than 5 years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 03, 2010, 07:39:29 AM
Yea, a service plan that ends after 5 years.  I'd like to hope my monster will last me longer than 5 years.

after 5 years (assuming its actually ridden) replacing a tank is a drop in the bucket compared to the list of shit that needs to be repaired and replaced



The thing that I don't understand is the shit metal tanks that dented when you looked at them wrong, imploded when a hose got plugged, and leaked at the hinge never got this kind of attention.

I say ride the things, get your tanks replaced on Ducati's dime until they finally say no (and enjoy the fresh paint)

then buy an aftermarket replacement when the deal goes south

a few grand for an aftermarket tank option is nickles in comparison to the money people spend on Mods





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 03, 2010, 08:29:18 AM
Yea, a service plan that ends after 5 years.  I'd like to hope my monster will last me longer than 5 years.

Ducati has been replacing the tanks even after the 5th year expiration.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 09:01:58 AM
Ducati has been replacing the tanks even after the 5th year expiration.

bear in mind it is 5 years OR 18,600 MILES


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 03, 2010, 09:10:22 AM
oh that is the catch with the 5 year or 18.6k miles. 

ouch.

got a question does anyonw know of any custom motorcycle tank makers that will make a custom metal tank that is a copy of the OEM tank?

beside the beater brand in japan, that does alum, are there any good tank makers that can do the same thing in the US?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 09:15:06 AM
not for cheap.

Ducati is replacing tanks outside of the 5yr/18k warranty.  NQA.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 03, 2010, 11:51:46 AM
not for cheap.

Ducati is replacing tanks outside of the 5yr/18k warranty.  NQA.

Hadn't heard that before, but it's good to hear as long as it lasts.

[stupid question time]

What is NQA?

[/stupid question time]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on December 03, 2010, 12:00:27 PM
Hadn't heard that before, but it's good to hear as long as it lasts.

[stupid question time]

What is NQA?

[/stupid question time]
No Questions Asked


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bladecutter on December 03, 2010, 12:21:52 PM
I thought he meant:

Now Quit Asking!

BC.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 12:40:50 PM
Hadn't heard that before, but it's good to hear as long as it lasts.

[stupid question time]

What is NQA?

[/stupid question time]

yes, No Questions Asked.

They are also replacing tanks for non-original owners. 

They are trying, even if not perfectly.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on December 03, 2010, 01:23:46 PM
How exactly is a new tank, made the same way and with the same material going to fix the issue?

Unless you mean "fix the issue" TEMPORARILY...then YES...it will "fix" the issue :)

Two separate dealers told me that the new tanks coming in look noticeably different inside, so they think Ducati is doing something new to them.  Who knows, it is what it is.  It'll fix the problem temporarily at least.  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 02:04:37 PM
New tanks are clean and look different.  Off white.  They probably are comparing new and old.  Current replacement tanks are the same material.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 03, 2010, 02:13:36 PM
I thought he meant:

Now Quit Asking!

BC.


 [laugh]

I should have known, I get that alot.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 03, 2010, 03:23:02 PM
I just read your update on the main thread. I would say that Acerbis has to get their head right since they provide tanks for just about every European manufacturer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 03:45:24 PM
I just read your update on the main thread. I would say that Acerbis has to get their head right since they provide tanks for just about every European manufacturer.

Yes and no.  Ducati owes you a good tank, not Acerbis.  They are just Ducati's supplier.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 03, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
I understand that, but once Europe goes E10, they will see this issue across all the manufacturers that outsource to Acerbis. It is in all their best interest to make sure Acerbis provides a viable tank for future use or face the possibility that the manufacturers will have to look elsewhere.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 05, 2010, 11:38:18 AM
Received this earlier this week as an update from the legal office:

"Dear Ducati Owners,

Thank you for contacting Girard Gibbs about your Ducati and the plastic fuel tank problems. *Over the last several weeks, we have spoken to a number of Ducati owners with degraded and deformed fuel tanks. *We greatly appreciate all the feedback we have received, which has helped us to better understand the problem and how Ducati has dealt with it. *While we are still in the process of individually contacting some of the people who have written to our firm, we wanted to take this opportunity to update everyone on the progress of our efforts to obtain a solution.

In October, we formally notified Ducati that it had violated warranty and consumer protection laws and requested that it cure those violations by notifying its customers of the defect and providing them with replacement fuel tanks that do not degrade and deform in the presence of the motorcycle’s fuel. Ducati has declined our request and we have now initiated a class action on behalf of all Ducati owners with plastic fuel tanks, seeking the same relief.

We want to stress that the goal of this lawsuit is not to punish Ducati or put them out of business, but rather to get Ducati to acknowledge and address the existence of what we believe is a problem with the material used in its fuel tanks.  Instead of replacing deformed fuel tanks with tanks that use the same material, we believe that Ducati is required to correct the underlying problem by installing replacement fuel tanks that do not degrade or deform when in contact with fuel.  Ultimately, we hope to convince Ducati that such a problem exists and that the resolution we seek is warranted.

If you have any questions about the lawsuit, please feel free to contact Dylan or Samantha by responding to this email or calling our toll-free number (866) 981-4800. *Information about the status of the case is also available at www.GirardGibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://), and we will be providing periodic email updates after significant developments in the case."

Girard Gibbs LLP
601 California Street, Suite 1400
San Francisco, CA 94108
Phone; (415) 981-4800
Fax: (415) 981-4846
www.girardgibbs.com (http://)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 05, 2010, 11:51:56 AM
Maybe Mr. Gibbs can shit you a tank that meets all the federal requirements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 06, 2010, 07:04:06 AM
81 pages of the same crap.  This is simple really.  The capacity and knowledge is there to fix the problem once and for all and move forward.  I'll bet they will continue to replace the defective tanks with ones they have already stored for "just in case I crash" repairs. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 06, 2010, 07:25:07 AM
81 pages of the same crap.  This is simple really.  The capacity and knowledge is there to fix the problem once and for all and move forward.  I'll bet they will continue to replace the defective tanks with ones they have already stored for "just in case I crash" repairs. 

I've been working on this for over 18 months now and I don't see it that way -- and it does nothing but cost me time from my work.

The problems are multiple.

The tanks have to meet crash/safety laws.
The tanks have to pass SHED/emissions regs.
They have to be paintable in such a way to be cost effective and meet the aesthetic needs of a primary visible component of a bike.
The tanks have to function well with crappy ethanol gasoline.
Moreover, given how small Ducati is, they likely have to be able to be modified simply to comply with EU rules for all of the above as well -- Ducati used the same items with small variations on all their bikes.  the only difference I have seen from an EU vs a USA gas tank is the vent line for the CARB canister requirements. 

If it was as simple as you believe, it would have already been done.  Trust me, I know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on December 06, 2010, 07:48:25 AM
but now you've seen two types of material.
What do you think that means for the future?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 06, 2010, 09:03:25 AM
On two totally diff models.  I don't think xlpe tanks can work on the older bikes ie multi and s2r.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on December 06, 2010, 09:11:42 AM
DP, do you know if the XLPE tanks are paintable?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on December 06, 2010, 09:23:48 AM
I have a 2006 620 Monster, the cheapest bike you could buy back in the day. It has 6700 miles on it, is garage kept and is in perfect shape. I only use 93 octane gas from Shell. I take care of the bike as well if not better then most owners. I had my first swollen tank replaced about 14 months ago. Fortunately my dealership was cool about taking care of it. Now my replacement tank is doing the same thing. I contacted the dealership, “just bring the bike to us, we’ll take the pictures and contact Ducati, no problem.”
Is it a pain in the ass, yes. Should it still be happening, no. Is Ducati working to solve the problem, yes. But all things considered as long as they are standing behind the problem in all cases no matter of the warranty period or mileage or what not and they take care of it until the problem is solved, I’m cool with that. Shit happens. Remember guys, it’s a motorcycle; few of us are using them as a primary form of transportation. I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike. It’s primarily a cosmetic problem. If we take this in perspective it’s not too bad is it.
I’m sure Ducati is rolling in Euros from all the product they sell here in the states, why don’t they just send us all carbon fiber replacement tanks. They can afford it why don’t we sue them to make them do what we want. Man I can’t stand that sentiment. And now they file a class action law suit? All the damn law suit does is makes it harder for companies in this country to do business. They are standing behind the product, why break their corporate balls on this.
I love my Duc, swollen tank and all and I would buy another one in a heart beat.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: silversled on December 06, 2010, 05:20:55 PM
I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike. It’s primarily a cosmetic problem.

Funny, my garage smells like gas as my fuel goes drip drip drip onto my exhaust, engine case and the floor. 

The fuel tank flange has deformed and pulled away from the fuel pump.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 06, 2010, 05:33:28 PM
DP, do you know if the XLPE tanks are paintable?
Not specifically.

I've painted polyethylene, but IIRC it was an interior part and was with a vinyl based interior paint.

My experience has been that with an adhesion promoter most plastics can be painted, and with excellent appearance.

In the earlier days of automotive plastics we painted PP, which is about a step and a half above crude oil, and we finally got adhesion promoters that would work.

PEX or XLPE is not a particularly dirty plastic.

I'll grab a piece of tubing tomorrow and try it.

Remind me. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: trpletme on December 06, 2010, 05:58:05 PM
"why don’t they just send us all carbon fiber replacement tanks."

The same thing will happen to the CF tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 06, 2010, 06:08:18 PM
I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike. It’s primarily a cosmetic problem. If we take this in perspective it’s not too bad is it.

The deformation eventually leads to a leaking tank:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF)
Quote
Ducati is using a composite material in constructing fuel tanks on some motorcycle models. In some instances (the Sport Classic series, for example) the tank simply deforms but does not leak. However, leaks have been alleged in the subject fuel tanks when tank deformation compromises the o-ring seal between the tank and fuel pump. Some owners report a pooling of fuel below the bike and/or on the engine when this occurs.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on December 06, 2010, 07:35:12 PM
I've been monitoring this whole thing, and am signed up on the list... my tank has definitely expanded, although definitely not to the severity of some others here. when i mentioned it to my dealer, they were hesitant to help me out as they had not heard anything yet. i didn't press the issue at that time, because my expansion was so minor...

my questions is, now that the NHTSA is involved, is there a possibility of a an actual recall in the near future??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 06, 2010, 07:55:36 PM
My biggest concern is that this is an "investigation" and gubmint investigations often fail to discover any problems.  Witness the recent approval of e15 by the epa after studies showed "no problems".  In a clean laboratory setting with controlled conditions e10 might remain pure e10 with no water contamination to cause the problem.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on December 06, 2010, 10:07:31 PM
Funny, my garage smells like gas as my fuel goes drip drip drip onto my exhaust, engine case and the floor. 

The fuel tank flange has deformed and pulled away from the fuel pump.


My opinion on yours is a heat situation not fuel.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 07, 2010, 04:07:59 AM

I love my Duc, swollen tank and all and I would buy another one in a heart beat.


I wish I could share that naievte. This is definitely my last Duc. Not from the tank issue specifically. But from requiring all the bits to make it ridable. Other bikes at similar price points don't require as much BS. Though I don't believe they are immune to tank deformation either.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 04:24:12 AM
That's your choice, I've owned plenty of bikes each with its own issues.  I liked them all but I've only loved my Ducatis.  Ducati riders in general are more educated, knowledgeable about riding and more worldly. 

How many Suzuki or Honda riders go out of their way to visit the factory?  Its just a difference that matters to me.  I enjoy almost anything on 2 wheels but Ducatis always give me something more.

Quirky tho they may be.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ungeheuer on December 07, 2010, 04:38:37 AM
That's your choice, I've owned plenty of bikes each with its own issues.  I liked them all but I've only loved my Ducatis....  I enjoy almost anything on 2 wheels but Ducatis always give me something more.

Quirky tho they may be.
+1

but now you've seen two types of material. What do you think that means for the future?
On two totally diff models.
I'm confused.  Ducati is using a different material for M1100 fuel tanks in the USA than in some other markets.  Same model, same model year, different material.

My 09 M1100 fuel tank (non-US market)... made from XLPE (cross-linked polyethylene).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5164/5231282174_54859a792e_b.jpg)

09 M1100 fuel tank (USA type)... made from PA (polyamide; aka nylon)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5004/5231285374_c230a82dcd_b.jpg)

I'm now very curious to learn why Ducati manufactures the same fuel cell using different materials depending on the market destination.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 05:04:06 AM
I'm now very curious to learn why Ducati manufactures the same fuel cell using different materials depending on the market destination.

It has to be some legal reason.  My guess is that the US version has to be CARB (california) compliant.  It's a long explanation why we have two sets of emissions laws in the USA (Federal EPA and California ARB) but Cali is a huge market for bikes and no importer would ship bikes here without being Cali compliant.

That's why US bikes have the vapor emissions (charcoal) canister on them -- and the fuel tank must work with it.

Likewise, there may be some additional crash requirements which necessitate the nylon tank.  I know for a fact that all PE's (HDPE, XLPE) are less shatter resistant than nylon (which bounces).

...but this is all beer pub speculation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 07, 2010, 05:22:33 AM
As I remember, the first generation Monster Dark tanks were plastic in Europe and metal in the US because they would not pass the shed test.  If I remember correctly, those tanks were also color impregnated, not painted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 06:07:12 AM
Got a link?  or know anyone who has one? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 07, 2010, 06:29:40 AM
I've been working on this for over 18 months now and I don't see it that way -- and it does nothing but cost me time from my work.

The problems are multiple.

If it was as simple as you believe, it would have already been done.  Trust me, I know.

Sarcasm rarely works on the web.  [bang]
My purpose wasn't to make it seem simple, I know there's way more involved and most of it over my head.  I just hope this gets resolved quickly for everyone's sake.  Ducati can't afford another PR nightmare.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 07, 2010, 07:37:29 AM
Ducati can't afford another PR nightmare.

Another? When was the last time they had a PR nightmare? It seems that they've been riding pretty high for at least the past 5 years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on December 07, 2010, 11:07:37 AM
I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel  and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike.

Yeah I know they can leak, it's just that you'll have plenty of time to know that it's comming and have your local dealer address the issue before then. It's not a safety issue unless you ignore it alltogether.


I wish I could share that naievte. This is definitely my last Duc. Not from the tank issue specifically. But from requiring all the bits to make it ridable. Other bikes at similar price points don't require as much BS. Though I don't believe they are immune to tank deformation either.
 
I think anyone who buys a Ducati should go into the purchase with open eyes. As far as needing bits to make it "ridable" I would venture a guess that most bits are to taylor it to you. I dont know of a single brand or model of bike that anyone feels is perfect right off the showroom floor.
Yes they are more expensive to own and maintain, and you get something special for that time and effort and money. If I look at an Acura NSX and A Ferrari 360 in those terms the Acura wins every time. But in the end which one would you rather have in your garage to drive?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on December 07, 2010, 11:35:51 AM
Just heard from my dealer that my 3rd tank was ordered.  No ETA on delivery....my last pearl white tank took about 2 1/2 months to be delivered.

I'm gonna casswell this one and call it a day.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 07, 2010, 01:37:40 PM
But from requiring all the bits to make it ridable. Other bikes at similar price points don't require as much BS.

Actually, this is incorrect.  Pretty much any high-performance big bore V-twin has the same issues with wonky fuel mapping and super lean conditions.  Talk to any of the KTM or Buell (with the rotax motor) riders.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 07, 2010, 03:05:25 PM
07 S2R1K silver with black stripe warranty tank replacement

10-08-10: First trip to Coleman's for pictures and paperwork to submit warranty claim. Told I would have to leave bike or deposit once warranty work was approved.
11-11-10: Notified by Coleman's that warranty replacement was approved and tank ordered. Updated that I wouldn't need to leave bike or deposit, but requested to bring bike in within 2 weeks after tank arrives.
12-04-10: Coleman's called to let me know that tank had arrived.
12-07-10: Dropped off bike to have the tank replaced. Supposed to be ready for pickup tomorrow.

Better than the Spring tank arrival predicted by Coleman's service department. Let the second swelling begin! [moto]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 07, 2010, 04:59:43 PM
I may have found another coating that can be used. It is a 1 part coating. Just open the can and pour it in after the prep is done. I have used this on a metal tank and it is holding up well. The info on the site says it can be used on plastic and fiberglass tanks. Please someone check it out and tell us what you think.  http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html (http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 07, 2010, 06:51:24 PM
Another? When was the last time they had a PR nightmare? It seems that they've been riding pretty high for at least the past 5 years.

how about before TPG stepped in?  Financial ruin among other things.  A small boutique manufacturer cannot afford problems of this magnitude. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 06:57:59 PM
I may have found another coating that can be used. It is a 1 part coating. Just open the can and pour it in after the prep is done. I have used this on a metal tank and it is holding up well. The info on the site says it can be used on plastic and fiberglass tanks. Please someone check it out and tell us what you think.  http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html (http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html)

amazing that i've been coating tanks for years and never heard of the stuff.  "plastic" is too generic a term, i need to know it adheres to nylon specifically.  plenty of other plastic / polymer materials around.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 07, 2010, 07:16:01 PM
I have a can of the stuff with the phone # of the mfg. 1-800-880-4461. If someone with more knowledge on the subject will research it to find out if it will work on Nylon. If it does, I think I may try it when I get another new tank. I paid about $30 for a qt. last year at a local shop.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 07:25:02 PM
I have a can of the stuff with the phone # of the mfg. 1-800-880-4461. If someone with more knowledge on the subject will research it to find out if it will work on Nylon. If it does, I think I may try it when I get another new tank. I paid about $30 for a qt. last year at a local shop.

i've poked around and can't find anything -- nylon isn't like PE or fibreglass.  it's slippery.  also, it needs to be impervious to ethanol.  the old kreme forumulation used polyurethane which is great with gasoline, but .. not so great with ethanol.. it also dried "flexible" like the blue lightning claims to do..   that's the only 1-part stuff i know of..  all the 2-part stuff dries semi-hard but is impervious to ethanol once dried.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 07, 2010, 07:39:08 PM
I have used it the one time. It seems to be holding up on a metal tank with holes. This stuff plugged the leaks and has been in use for about a year with Ethenol in the tank. It was easy to work around the tank, not too thick and can drain out excess easily. I will try to call them to get info on use with Nylon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 07, 2010, 09:31:30 PM
Got a link?  or know anyone who has one?  

I do remember there were plastic dark carbie tanks in Europe.  All of Europe?  Anywhere else?  Dunno.  When I inquired about a plastic tank for mine I was told it would have to be ordered from Europe and would need different hardware.  If I remember correctly, I asked Bruce Meyers why the US  didn't get the plastic tanks and he said they failed CA emissions.  


I didn't know there were early plastic FI tanks, but I did a Google and found this from the old board.  I didn't link it so people don't need to go there.

Quote
utzelu
Senior Member

 
utzelu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 132
   
Default Re: 620 IE Fuel filter change.
It does cover the FI models, but I've just now realized that the US version of 2002 620ie Dark has metal tank, while the European version (and mine) has plastic tank. The changing procedures is different between the two.
__________________
Regards,<br />utzelu

Sorry I can't do better since I realize you are looking for something you can hang you hat on, but maybe someone from the other side of the pond can help.  I wonder is stopintime could find out what material his tank is made of.  Maybe the non EPA pay your own way more permanent cure is a Euro tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 07, 2010, 09:36:12 PM
i've poked around and can't find anything -- nylon isn't like PE or fibreglass.  it's slippery.  also, it needs to be impervious to ethanol.  the old kreme forumulation used polyurethane which is great with gasoline, but .. not so great with ethanol.. it also dried "flexible" like the blue lightning claims to do..   that's the only 1-part stuff i know of..  all the 2-part stuff dries semi-hard but is impervious to ethanol once dried.

I emailed the blue lightening people for an MSDS which I hope sheds some light on this stuff's composition. We'll see if they respond.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Triple J on December 08, 2010, 02:53:47 PM
Who says?

Get me a blow molded HDPE tank...

I'd love to prove you wrong. ;)

The only issues with painting any plastic is adhesion. There are materials to solve that. Now if the adhesion issues are due to the material 'sweating' fuel, as with PEX, all bets are off.



I didn't see the correct answer back when this was posted, so... (sorry if I missed it):

...the issue with HDPE is that it off-gases. This is why they can't be painted...and why Chris Kelley's HDPE tanks aren't painted. Maybe he'll lend you one to try though?  :)

HDPE also expands A LOT more than any metal, up to 10-15 times as much. Wall thickness does not have an effect at mitigating this...at least not for any reasonable thickness applicable to a gas tank. I don't know if it's enough to fail paint, as I don't know how flexible paint is, but I would guess it is.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 08, 2010, 05:41:52 PM
I didn't see the correct answer back when this was posted, so... (sorry if I missed it):

...the issue with HDPE is that it off-gases. This is why they can't be painted...and why Chris Kelley's HDPE tanks aren't painted. Maybe he'll lend you one to try though?  :)

HDPE also expands A LOT more than any metal, up to 10-15 times as much. Wall thickness does not have an effect at mitigating this...at least not for any reasonable thickness applicable to a gas tank. I don't know if it's enough to fail paint, as I don't know how flexible paint is, but I would guess it is.
I think the expansion would be a non issue. Urethanes are pretty flexible.

Chris asked me if I wanted to try painting one. After listening to his explanation I figured why bother.

I for one will never own a gas tank that off gasses fuel...seems so wrong.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SacDuc on December 08, 2010, 08:47:15 PM

For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer the other day and he mentioned that he has only done 3 tank replacements. He sells 150-200 bikes per year. He blamed the expansion problems on two things, ethanol and the emissions canister. He credited his low replacement rate to that fact that he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  :D

sac


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on December 08, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer...he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  :D

sac

Isn't that patently illegal, for a dealer to do such things? As in like a federal offense or something? Seems like the EPA could have his ass for that.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on December 08, 2010, 10:58:08 PM
For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer the other day and he mentioned that he has only done 3 tank replacements. He sells 150-200 bikes per year. He blamed the expansion problems on two things, ethanol and the emissions canister. He credited his low replacement rate to that fact that he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  :D

sac

I think there may be something to the charcoal canister emissions crap being part of the cause.  I have yet to replace my tank and have had the bike since new back in December of 2007 and ditching the canister and it's connecting hoses was one of my first mods.  I also have the DP Tank Bra which may be preventing any side-ward expansion but I have noticed very slight forward expansion as it's been getting to be a little tighter fit for the tank lock up by the ignition.  I don't think it's enough to get a replacement just yet.  If and when I do, I definitely plan on getting it lined with Caswell or some other such product just to avoid having to deal with it again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: myleslong on December 09, 2010, 03:14:21 AM
My 07 S4RS has had the canister removed since day 1. My second replacement tank has just arrived. My opinion, based on my personal experience is that the canister has 0 effect on the expansion problem...It's ethanol incompatability, period.
I will coat the new tank with Caswells before it ever has gas in it and update this thread with my feedback on how it goes. Unless I've missed somthing in the last 84 pages, no one has actually performed this process themselves.
Best regards,
Myleslong


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 04:02:03 AM
Isn't that patently illegal, for a dealer to do such things? As in like a federal offense or something? Seems like the EPA could have his ass for that.

The vapor emissions canister is required in California and the CARB states.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 04:03:21 AM
My 07 S4RS has had the canister removed since day 1. My second replacement tank has just arrived. My opinion, based on my personal experience is that the canister has 0 effect on the expansion problem

I agree.  the vapor canister doesn't impede pressure releasing, on the contrary, it actually provides a "trouble-free" exit

Quote
...It's ethanol incompatability, period.

ethanol AND water.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 09, 2010, 04:32:26 AM
I agree.  the vapor canister doesn't impede pressure releasing, on the contrary, it actually provides a "trouble-free" exit

<snip>

Unless they clog, which they eventually do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 04:37:10 AM
Unless they clog, which they eventually do.

i've never seen that, then again, they get dumped pretty quickly.  but that's the first i've heard.  what clogs them?  they are a closed system, so the only things that can get in are vapor..  when i picked up my '98 900fe, i found the canister under the front fairing (where I like to mount the oil cooler) and removed it -- it wasn't clogged, just 3 lbs of crap off the bike!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 09, 2010, 05:51:07 AM
Seems like any way you look at it - there is a vicious circle of ever-tightening regulations and laws that are incompatible with each other and the vehicles they apply to.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 09, 2010, 02:01:31 PM
i've never seen that, then again, they get dumped pretty quickly.  but that's the first i've heard.  what clogs them?  they are a closed system, so the only things that can get in are vapor..  when i picked up my '98 900fe, i found the canister under the front fairing (where I like to mount the oil cooler) and removed it -- it wasn't clogged, just 3 lbs of crap off the bike!

The charcoal gradually compacts.  It usually takes a long time and since most of the bikes loose them early in life it is rare.  The other "clogging" problem is people over stuffing the tank.  Fuel gets warm, expands and soaks the canister which also causes rich running.  I had to change one on my buddie's BMW due to restriction.  They are also semi closed.  One hose to the tank, one to the manifolds, one vented to the atmosphere.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 09, 2010, 03:26:58 PM
07 S2R1K silver with black stripe warranty tank replacement
10-08-10: First trip to Coleman's for pictures and paperwork to submit warranty claim. Told I would have to leave bike or deposit once warranty work was approved.
11-11-10: Notified by Coleman's that warranty replacement was approved and tank ordered. Updated that I wouldn't need to leave bike or deposit, but requested to bring bike in within 2 weeks after tank arrives.
12-04-10: Coleman's called to let me know that tank had arrived.
12-07-10: Dropped off bike to have the tank replaced. Supposed to be ready for pickup tomorrow.

Picked up the s2r from Coleman's with the new tank. Looks great, works great. Was damn glad I had on my leathers to block the wind, cuz it was COLD at speed. [moto]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 09, 2010, 03:29:29 PM
it was COLD at speed. [moto]

make the beast with two backs YES it is.  Doood, it's like 28 out there, standing still!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 09, 2010, 03:53:58 PM
I called about the LineATank sealer, I was told it is a MCU and will work on Nylon. "It will stick to almost anything"  He said.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 03:58:44 PM
What is an MCU?

Will they put that in writing?  That it will adhere to nylon and is impervious to ethanol?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 09, 2010, 04:45:15 PM
a MCU is a marine paint it stands for moisture cured or some such


http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractors/corrosion/mcu-coatings/ (http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractors/corrosion/mcu-coatings/)

we used this stuff on machines that sat outside at Johnston Atoll

I know nothing about it except it was applied in a gumby suit




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 09, 2010, 05:06:01 PM
What is an MCU?

Will they put that in writing?  That it will adhere to nylon and is impervious to ethanol?
Moisture cured urethane. That's what POR is.

I'm skeptical.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 09, 2010, 05:12:12 PM
maybe its time for a fuel cell in a plastic tank-shaped vessel


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 09, 2010, 05:38:09 PM
If Caswell has been used with success, I will probably use it. I know alot of Us are trying to find a solution to the problem because eventually, Ducati will stop replacing tanks on older bikes. Just trying to help.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 16, 2010, 01:29:46 PM
Izaak,

I received another email last night from the Yahoo group requesting more data.  You have been collecting data from us for a while and I am curious how you intend to use that data.  I am also curious about your plan now that there is a class action and interest from the NHTSA.  What's next?

I read a couple of letters written by Ducati owners in the latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News asking when the media was going to get involved in the expanding tank issue.  It seems the movement is growing (pardon the pun).  MCN's advice was to contact NHTSA.

Thanks,
Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 17, 2010, 08:13:16 AM
Is this old new?  I have not been keeping up with the problem until this morning.  I just talked to Caswell TS and he said Ducati has tested the product and is adviseing the use of it for the expansion problem.  I was conserned about longevity of it and he said he has been working thier for eight years and has never heard of a problem.  Plastic Duc tanks are obviously not that old but.

My 07 S4Rs tank is just now getting long enough to have a problem latching.  The local dealer told me he has a pile of thirty tanks out in back that Ducati is making them keep on hand.  He also said Ducati sent him an advisory that they are no longer addressing the problem!  They were up until the middle of November.  No news thier probably.

lGrain of salt anyone?

http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)

known as   PHENOL NOVOLAC EPOXY GAS TANK SEALER


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 17, 2010, 09:57:06 AM
Izaak,

I received another email last night from the Yahoo group requesting more data.  You have been collecting data from us for a while and I am curious how you intend to use that data.  I am also curious about your plan now that there is a class action and interest from the NHTSA.  What's next?

I read a couple of letters written by Ducati owners in the latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News asking when the media was going to get involved in the expanding tank issue.  It seems the movement is growing (pardon the pun).  MCN's advice was to contact NHTSA.

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff, I really can't go into details yet.  All of the parties are still talking.

Is this old new?  I have not been keeping up with the problem until this morning.  I just talked to Caswell TS and he said Ducati has tested the product and is adviseing the use of it for the expansion problem.  I was conserned about longevity of it and he said he has been working thier for eight years and has never heard of a problem.  Plastic Duc tanks are obviously not that old but.

My 07 S4Rs tank is just now getting long enough to have a problem latching.  The local dealer told me he has a pile of thirty tanks out in back that Ducati is making them keep on hand.  He also said Ducati sent him an advisory that they are no longer addressing the problem!  They were up until the middle of November.  No news thier probably.

lGrain of salt anyone?

http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)

known as   PHENOL NOVOLAC EPOXY GAS TANK SEALER

I set up the testing of Caswell for Ducati, and pushed them to look at a barrier (coating) solution. 

The word was that the coating worked to prevent the swelling and adhered well, but due to homologation reqs they (Ducati as manufacturer) could not use it.  It works well though, and several folks on the Multistrada board have had it in their tanks well over a year now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 17, 2010, 11:39:28 AM
~4.5 month into the new tank that I had Caswell-ed.  No expansion so far!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 18, 2010, 05:24:47 AM
Hey Cdawg or anyone that has used Caswell, I just pulled my tank and am drying it out so I can use the Caswell when it gets here.  Caswell advises that you bump in a handfull of drywall screws and shake to scratch the intererior for adhesion.
It seems to me that a few could get stuck in the corners?  And if they do they would or could find thier way to the sensor plate.  Anyone worried about it.

Also I have read that the tank will shrink after a good dry.  This is not good if it continues to shrink after application, risk cracking under movement.   I am going to set mine up with a small fan blowing through it at the plate hole for at least a month to be sure.  It is winter in Michigan so I am down anyhow.

Drywall screws sounds like shade tree mechanic advise but whatever works, as long as they all come out.  At least count them for sure but then what if they do get stuck?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 18, 2010, 05:28:22 AM
the screws are recommended to knock loose any scale or rust.  there's no need to do that on the nylon tanks.

i would recommend looking inside the tank and cutting off any thin air bubbles that are in the surface before coating as the coating will sit on top of the bubble.  the bubbles are artefacts from the rotomolding and removing them is non-problematic.  use an exacto knife and cut conservatively.

the bubbles i am referring to look like a pimple- they rise off the inner surface.  anything below the surface leave alone.  typically, they will "pop" just using your fingernail.  Most tanks will have no more than 2-3 and most will have none.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 18, 2010, 05:31:29 AM
Thanks : Any thought on the shrinking?  I cannot see very far at all in my tank to look for pimples?  S4Rs 07....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on December 18, 2010, 05:34:25 AM
I too was told by my dealer that Duc sent him a memo and will no longer replace tanks as it's a cosmetic issue.
Haven't been by to get my bike (with a new tank) to ask him for a copy for Iz. Sorry- they're over an hour away.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on December 18, 2010, 05:39:46 AM
Anyone try Stabil's Marine Ethanol Treatment? Lable says it has 4 times the ethanol fighting component- what ever that means.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: myleslong on December 18, 2010, 07:22:30 AM
Hello all,
As promised, I'm posting the results of my Caswell adventure.
 I can only report my opinion based on my experience. I did the Caswell treatment on my brand new tank last week.
I sent Caswell an E-mail explaining that my tank was new and had never had gas in it.
 They strongly recommended that I use the acetone and dry wall screws to rough up and soften the surface a little. Against my better judgment, I did, based on their strong recommendation.
Of the 10 drywall screws I put in, I was only able to get 6 out. As I was shaking the tank with the Acetone and screws, the rattle sound gradually disappeared all together.
No amount of shaking, tapping the inside of the tank with a rubber dead blow, or rotating the tank for at least 25 minutes would locate the remaining 4 screws. no rattle from the screws...nothing, Long flexible magnet no success.
 I finally gave up and they got "Caswelled" in place forever.
 As a bi-product of this exercise and despite much masking, taping, tin foiling etc.etc.  some of the acetone managed to get by the fuel fill plug and onto the stripe in front of the filler and immediately ate the clear coat and was working on the decal itself. I was not happy.
By the way..  doing a fingernail test of the inside of the tank at the fuel pump hole after the acetone disaster I noted absolutely no difference in the surface.
So..... New tank decal  $25.00.... Scuff and re-clear the tank about $150.00 and about 4 extra hours of my time.
 I did the coating in 2 stages..1/2 of the product and then 10 hours later the second 1/2. It seems to have covered well and is as hard as a rock. I strongly recommend thinning as much as the directions allow.
This stuff is as thick as honey and a pain in the ass to move around in the tank before it begins to kick  @76 deg.
 If I had it to do over, keeping in mind that my tank is brand new, I'd skip the acetone... Probably do water with at least 13mm nuts or bolts for the roughing up. The dry wall screws are way to skinny for a Monster tank. I guarantee it.
 I hope this is the final solution, cause it sure has not been a fun or rewarding exercise, and has ended up costing me a couple of hundred bucks and much aggravation.
 By the way, I've been a mechanic, working on on bikes, cars, painting, fabricating etc. for over 30 years, so I'm no rookie.
 Take my experience as a warning, the acetone is lethal to paint and clear coat. THE DRYWALL SCREWS ARE TOO SMALL...DON'T USE THEM !!
Good luck to all who decide on this option.
Regards,
Myles


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 18, 2010, 09:37:40 AM
I just don't get the drywall screw part.  It serves no purpose for a plastic walled tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 18, 2010, 11:13:39 AM
myleslong : Man sorry you had to learn the hard way and I am glad you informed us.  I think i will forgo the screws for sure and I think I will use a bodyshops gunwash solution.  It has acetone in it but no where near full strength.  I used to be a bodyman and you can usually use it on paint as long as you take it off right away. 

I am still curious about the "shrinking in time" affect that I have read about on other forums.  The more I read about it the more it seems viable to a point.  But even a little shrinkage would help most tanks.  I am going take a few precise measurment and put a fan blowing through it for a week.  I will post anything I find.  If it shrinks even 2% a week it would be worth it for the rest of the winter.  Then do the Caswell.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 19, 2010, 06:11:02 PM
...acetone managed to get by the fuel fill plug and onto the stripe in front of the filler and immediately ate the clear coat and was working on the decal itself...

I have been trying to figure out how to swish with acetone without damaging the finish.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 19, 2010, 07:14:07 PM
is there any way to make the caswell move more like water in the tank instead of honey? and will this then affect how well the stuff works?

also why did you use 1/2 and 1/2 would it be better to use the whole can or even 2 cans to do one tank the theory being more stuff to slosh around equals easier to coat everything in one shot or would that just make it too thick?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 19, 2010, 07:18:02 PM
is there any way to make the caswell move more like water in the tank instead of honey? and will this then affect how well the stuff works?

also why did you use 1/2 and 1/2 would it be better to use the whole can or even 2 cans to do one tank the theory being more stuff to slosh around equals easier to coat everything in one shot or would that just make it too thick?
2 cans won't make it thicker, just more thick stuff in the tank at one time.

Over thinning would probably affect the cure in a detrimental manner


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 19, 2010, 08:09:58 PM
It has to be some legal reason.  My guess is that the US version has to be CARB (california) compliant.  It's a long explanation why we have two sets of emissions laws in the USA (Federal EPA and California ARB) but Cali is a huge market for bikes and no importer would ship bikes here without being Cali compliant.

That's why US bikes have the vapor emissions (charcoal) canister on them -- and the fuel tank must work with it.

Likewise, there may be some additional crash requirements which necessitate the nylon tank.  I know for a fact that all PE's (HDPE, XLPE) are less shatter resistant than nylon (which bounces).

...but this is all beer pub speculation.

ah ha, so now the key is how to get your hands on some xple tanks instead of the pa tanks.  that would probably solve everything..  anyone know someone in antoher country to ship them?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 19, 2010, 08:32:07 PM
what is the acetone used for?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 19, 2010, 09:48:20 PM
what is the acetone used for?


Acetone is solvent to plastic because it is made from plastics, a good example is the primer that is used for PVC plumbing.  It softens and expands an outside layer of the plastic which makes it adhere well to other "hot" solvents, the glue.  So the tank needs the acetone to soften as well as clean I presume.  Someone that knows more than I about plastics can say more about that.  Being an ex NASA paint man I have used a lot of Acetone.  That is why it is eating the polyurethane base of the clear coat and anything else plastic.  

I am still waiting for my tank to dry and for the can of Caswell.  You do not have to leave the acetone in the tank longer than five seconds.  Just enough to cover and clean all of the inside surface and then drain it out fast.  So you have absorbant rags at the ready, you seal the main bottom plate hole "tight" with duck tape, have a rag made up to fit tight in the cap hole.  Outside over whatever you can use to catch it, have the tank in your hands with one over the bottom hole keeping pressure on the duck tape (using a thick rag to distribute the pressure), have a friend with a funnel, carefully without spilling a drop, dump in a quart of Acetone (or gunwash / lacquer thinner) stick the rag in the cap hole, shake it around good for 5 seconds, hold the tank over a large pan and have your buddy pull off the duck tape.  Clean quick with rags and continue on with the caswell as soon as you are done cleaning it.  I would even have the Caswell ready to go or at least ready to mix before the clean.  Make sure the acetone is completely dry.


Acetone will eat up any rubber gloves that you find at the grocery store but they should give you time to keep it off your hands, just peel them off ASAP.   Or buy a couple pair of solvent resistaint gloves from a manfacturers supply shop.

I am going to use gunwash as I mentioned before instead of acetone, you can buy it at any parts store that carries automotive paints.

I am wondering if the Caswell is a solvent, it would be good if it is but if it is a two part system it probably is not.

Good Luck!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 04:47:30 AM
is there any way to make the caswell move more like water in the tank instead of honey? and will this then affect how well the stuff works?

also why did you use 1/2 and 1/2 would it be better to use the whole can or even 2 cans to do one tank the theory being more stuff to slosh around equals easier to coat everything in one shot or would that just make it too thick?

Double check with Caswell, but thinning with MEK should be fine.

2 cans won't make it thicker, just more thick stuff in the tank at one time.

Over thinning would probably affect the cure in a detrimental manner

MEK is volatile, it just poofs out with good ventilation.  I used it with the Bill Hirsch coating which is also a 2-part setup and smells the same.  (which is how I identify chemicals, just like a Bloodhound)

The best way to do it is to keep the ingredients at room temp or above, around 70-75 F.  If you thin, then go very conservatively and use no more than 2-3 drops at a time. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 20, 2010, 05:40:40 AM

Double check with Caswell, but thinning with MEK should be fine.

MEK is volatile, it just poofs out with good ventilation.  I used it with the Bill Hirsch coating which is also a 2-part setup and smells the same.  (which is how I identify chemicals, just like a Bloodhound)

The best way to do it is to keep the ingredients at room temp or above, around 70-75 F.  If you thin, then go very conservatively and use no more than 2-3 drops at a time. 


Ducatiz : Do you have confidence in Bill Hirsch's coating adhereing to the inside, if you can delute it with mek then itself must be a solvent which is good?  Just when a person has a fix more information comes along everytime.  The gods of the forum must be laughing [wine]




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 06:00:09 AM

Ducatiz : Do you have confidence in Bill Hirsch's coating adhereing to the inside, if you can delute it with mek then itself must be a solvent which is good?  Just when a person has a fix more information comes along everytime.  The gods of the forum must be laughing [wine]

I have NO EXPERIENCE with the Bill Hirsch coating on the Ducati NYLON tank.

I have experience with it on METAL tanks.  I have never contacted Bill Hirsch to see if they think it will adhere to plastic/nylon. 

I have used it on 5 metal tanks and diluted it a good bit -- it rolled thru the tank pretty quickly, and just kept the air moving.  It started to thicken after about 20 minutes of turning the tank and covered everything enough after about 30 minutes and stuck. 



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on December 20, 2010, 06:22:01 AM
<snip>
 If I had it to do over, keeping in mind that my tank is brand new, I'd skip the acetone... Probably do water with at least 13mm nuts or bolts for the roughing up. The dry wall screws are way to skinny for a Monster tank. I guarantee it.
<snip>
Why would you use water when that is what is making the tanks expand?  [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 06:26:33 AM
Why would you use water when that is what is making the tanks expand?  [roll]

A few seconds of contact probably won't hurt it, the problem is constant contact.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 20, 2010, 06:38:20 AM
I have been drying out my tank since Saturday morning, 48 hours.  I took some fairly precise measurements before I started.  I took a measurement this morning and was thrilled to see that the width had come back 1/16th of an inch.  But the length did not, which I thought would have the most shrinkage.  !!IT SHRINKS BACK!!  Time will tell how much but it is good news to me to see it actually get smaller by even that little bit.  I am going to leave it blowing for at least a month before I coat with the Caswell (michigan winter).  If nothing else you do not want it shrinking or moving at all with a coating on the interior.

(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff406/DucatiRocket/TankDry.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 20, 2010, 10:53:07 AM
Not for the faint of heart - this made me feel a bit queasy like doing taxes only worse.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INIM-PE10045-42821.pdf (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INIM-PE10045-42821.pdf)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 20, 2010, 11:24:24 AM
Craige / Tech Support / Caswell has given us answers to some of our questions.  I will cut and paste his response to a questionaire email that i sent him.
-----------------------------------------------------
Craige : At this time there are  31420 views so there is a few riders needing answers on how to fix the problem of tank expansion in Ducati's.  I will list them so I can cut and past this whole bit in the thread.  Or which every way you are comfortable with.  The riders thank you
 
Craig : If you have any tips "PLEASE" feel free to help.

------------------------------------------

It seems a bit thick to get around and cover all the tanks interior?  Can it be thinned?

The gas tank sealer can be thinned using Xylene or lacquer thinner. You can add no more than 5% by volume ( 1 fl oz for the motorcycle kit). This serves to retard the cure cycle and thin the sealer somewhat to expand coverage.

Is it a solvent that will have a molecular connection with the tank?

Once applied it will permanently bond to the tank it is an epoxy.

If the tank continues to shrink will this cause a problem with adhesion?

No, it is a hard finish.

Screws are getting stuck in the tanks, are they really necessary?

 For a plastic tank it is not necessary to use the screws.

Will double the amount make it easier to coat?

It will provide a thicker layer and give you more volume to slosh around.

Does the MEK (acetone) actually soften the plastic or is it used just for cleaning?

If you are dealing with a plastic tank you do not have to use the acetone. Acetone will attack the plastic if left in over about 10 minutes. You will only use the acetone if the tank has cured and you require an additional coating due to incomplete coverage. The  acetone is poured in and sloshed around for about 5 to 7 minutes to make the existing coating tacky, poured out allowed to evaporate and the second coating is applied.

If not MEK what soap would work?

No MEK, dawn dish washing detergent and hot water to clean, then rinse with hot water and allow to dry before applying the Caswell Gas Tank Sealer.

How thick is the coating?

About 1/16" +/-

Do you advise coating twice?

Not usually necessary unless you see gaps where it did not flow to an area.

Feel free to add any comments.

Caswell Gas Tank Sealer GTS1750

http://caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 11:43:02 AM
Not for the faint of heart - this made me feel a bit queasy like doing taxes only worse.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INIM-PE10045-42821.pdf (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INIM-PE10045-42821.pdf)

The main points to note are:

1.  it's an official communication and Ducati has to respond with the information requested.
2.  NHTSA has had 13 reports of LEAKING tanks.  This isn't deformation by itself, it is deformation that has led to actual leaking of gasoline.
3.  NHTSA seems to think that the leaking is unrelated to the deformation issue.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 11:45:12 AM
Does the MEK (acetone) actually soften the plastic or is it used just for cleaning?

MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) and Acetone are two different chemicals, same family, but not the same.  MEK is 2-butanone and Acetone is 2-propanone.  Both ketones, but definitely not the same stuff.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 20, 2010, 11:51:21 AM
MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) and Acetone are two different chemicals, same family, but not the same.  MEK is 2-butanone and Acetone is 2-propanone.  Both ketones, but definitely not the same stuff.

Do they both have the same effect on the tank material?  Which would be better for addesion purposes?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 12:09:51 PM
Do they both have the same effect on the tank material?  Which would be better for addesion purposes?

I don't know, there are chem engs around who can tell you that, but I assume both will attack the Nylon if applied in any significant concentration or duration.  For the purposes of thinning the Caswells, I assume both are ok, but I am more familiar with using MEK>


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on December 20, 2010, 12:21:16 PM
Ford and GM join legal fight over the 15% Ethanol

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ford-gm-join-legal-fight-against-higher-ethanol-2010-12-20 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ford-gm-join-legal-fight-against-higher-ethanol-2010-12-20)

Send a letter to your congress representatives - I did.


mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: myleslong on December 20, 2010, 12:54:18 PM
Well..BoDiddley,
You got different answers from Caswell than I did. When I asked about skipping the Acetone and screws, I was cautioned not to skip this step. If I had gotten the answers you did, I would have avoided the whole paint issue. According to Caswell's answers to your questions, the acetone is not necessary for "plastic" tanks. As I noted on my original post, I couldn't tell any difference in the surface after I did my tank, so I would skip the acetone completely. Also the screws.
By the way, acetone eats the sticky on duct tape in about 1/3 a second, so don't expect duct tape to hold back acetone.
I made a steel plate with an inner tube gasket to cover the fuel pump hole and used an automotive expandable rubber freeze plug to plug the gas filler hole. But as stated earlier...don't even use the acetone and all should be good.
 To answer another question that was asked...I did 2 coats because the quantity of the motorcycle kit is for two 5 gal tanks. I was trying to ensure that I had good coverage. Yes, thin Caswells with lacquer thinner. Just follow the directions.
Strangely, when I got my new (3rd) tank, the dealer still had my original tank which was replaced almost 1 year ago to the day in his storage holding area. Unfortunately, the ripples in the knee cutouts were still very obvious. I can't say if the tank had shrunk any, but cosmetically is still looked terrible. (Black S4rs)
Regards,
Myles


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 20, 2010, 01:43:48 PM
<snip>

The best way to do it is to keep the ingredients at room temp or above, around 70-75 F.  If you thin, then go very conservatively and use no more than 2-3 drops at a time. 
Izaak...if you've ever used the Caswell you'd see it doesn't need to be thinned a drop or two at a time...

an ounce at a time is more like it.

Someone described it like honey...it is...if you keep your honey in the fridge. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 20, 2010, 02:39:17 PM
NHTSA seems to think that the leaking is unrelated to the deformation issue.

...and the 2008 model year is not affected.  I assume none of the reported leakers were 2008s, though.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 03:25:36 PM
Its solely based on the reports.  For example, the lawsuit has a 2009 SBK .



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on December 20, 2010, 07:06:30 PM
looking through that PDF, it seems that because of the reported leakage issues, a recall may be pursued.
as they (ducati) would be unable to determine which tanks will leak, and which will not, would this not then lend itself to a recall of all plastic tanks for Monsters Model Year 2004-2007 (according to the document)???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 07:10:25 PM
looking through that PDF, it seems that because of the reported leakage issues, a recall may be pursued.
as they (ducati) would be unable to determine which tanks will leak, and which will not, would this not then lend itself to a recall of all plastic tanks for Monsters Model Year 2004-2007 (according to the document)???

What I am irritated with is that they seem to exclude the tank deformation as a potential cause of the leak occurring.  It's bizarre.  It's a plastic tank, with a plastic flange and that flange is leaking.  Flange is only going to leak because you put a crappy Oring on it, the fuel pump casting doesn't fit or the hole is changing shape.  Hello??

But yes, if they find a defect (and NHTSA requires it to be "DANGEROUS" for it to be a legal defect.  "mere" deformation may not be dangerous -- ie.. legal defect. ) they can force a recall.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 21, 2010, 01:19:43 AM
The 2008 S4Rs Tricolor, even though it is the same bike as a 2007 S4Rs except for the paint scheme, is not included?  [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 21, 2010, 03:06:40 PM
I recieved my Caswell today and then an hour later my dealer sent this email.

"Great news,  Thanks to your efforts with the photos, Ducati North America has approved the replacement of your fuel tank. I will call you when the tank arrives. I ordered all the hardware necessary to make the swap. You can bring the bike to us or just the tank. I will need to retain the old tank for 90 days. Either way works for me!"

My man must have found the right route to the mountain top?  Of course I am not actually looking at the tank yet.  But if one dealer can do it.  Am I opening up my big mouth risking bad karma or rath from the Duca gods, what the hell I can still fix my old tank.

07 S4Rs  Red/white
 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 21, 2010, 03:28:26 PM
i say pick up the new tank and coat it with the caswells without ever putting fuel in it and be done with it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 22, 2010, 04:53:47 AM
I read a couple of letters written by Ducati owners in the latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News asking when the media was going to get involved in the expanding tank issue.  It seems the movement is growing (pardon the pun).  MCN's advice was to contact NHTSA.

Here is Motorcycle Consumer News’ response to the letters regarding expanding Ducati tanks published in their January 2011 issue.  Note the email address for the NHTSA’s investigator at the bottom. 

Problems with swelling molded plastic Ducati gas tanks, which have been used on the Sport GT, Monster, and Multistrada have been noted since 2004.  The problem does not seem to affect all of Ducati’s plastic gas tanks, and ethanol in the fuel does appear to be the cause.  Ducati is apparently acting in good faith and replacing any affected tanks, even well past the warranty period.  We have seen pictures of such tanks that have become grotesquely large, which can make accessing their mounting bolts difficult.  But until the problems included leaks around the fuel pump mounting, which could drip on the hot exhaust, creating a fire hazard, NHTSA was not interested.  We have spoken to Robert Young, NHTSA’s chief motorcycle investigator, and he tell s us NHTSA is now investigating complaints on the 2004-2007 Monsters and Multistradas.  The Sport Classics are not yet included as the complaints haven’t included fire danger. 

Be aware that if you decide to coat the inside of your plastic gas tank, hoping to eliminate the problem, Ducati has not authorized this solution, so any future problems may raise questions about the suitability of the products, which are, in fact, designed for metal gas tanks. 

We suggest the any owners who feel that their problems can be life-threatening in any way contact NHTSA.  Be sure to have photos for documentation if your particular case is investigated.  Bob Young can be reached at the following email address:  ryoung@nhtsa.dot.gov.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 22, 2010, 07:45:08 AM
So "We know their is a problem that we are not willing to fix but if you find a fix we advise you not to use it".  They are really stuck in between a rock and the hard asphalt.  But, I cannot imagine "any" manufacturer of motorcycles, cars or toasters that would replace a $2000.00 tank after four years.  And they are replacing my tank not because they have to.   Ducati does stand tall!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 25, 2010, 10:50:01 AM
i say pick up the new tank and coat it with the caswells without ever putting fuel in it and be done with it.


Ahhhh yep, what else would I do with it, but I will feel better when I actually have the tank.  It has been charged to the dealers account so maybe it is true?  [wine]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CJIA on December 25, 2010, 09:36:17 PM
its times like this that i'm glad i ride a 2002 monster with a metal tank...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: strat10 on December 27, 2010, 02:31:20 PM
Took mine to the Dealer, "yes, your tank is swelling" waited about 2 months, they called said the tank was in, replaced it within an hour, I now have a shiny new tank.

By the time I got it in it was getting hard to get to the ignition. It was definatley ballooning.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on January 04, 2011, 04:01:57 PM
...replace a $2000.00 tank after four years.  And they are replacing my tank not because they have to...

I love the company, but actually in the US they have to replace it since the federal requirement on emission warranty is 5 years regardless of what the manufacturer states.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on January 05, 2011, 01:17:32 AM
I love the company, but actually in the US they have to replace it since the federal requirement on emission warranty is 5 years regardless of what the manufacturer states.

Well, sort of.  The warranty is 5 years or 30,000 kilometers, whichever comes first.  They have been replacing tanks on bikes over 30K.  The emissions warranty also does not include cosmetic problems.  Unless fuel or fuel vapor is escaping there is no emissions defect.  For some reason I will not speculate on they are using the emission warranty as a mechanism for replacing bad tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2011, 04:07:36 AM
It could be argued that it might be a cosmetic problem if there weren't numerous reports of leaking tanks across all models.

The basis of the filed lawsuit is a leaking 1198.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on January 05, 2011, 06:26:02 AM
2004 to 2007?  My 2009 had the issue.  At least I have videos of the leak...

I already reported it on NHTSA's web site.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2011, 06:27:14 AM
2004 to 2007?  My 2009 had the issue.  At least I have videos of the leak...

I already reported it on NHTSA's web site.

If you reported it then it was after they opened the investigation (or after they collected the info to do so)

You need to contact the investigator at NHTSA, PM me if you want to.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on January 05, 2011, 07:21:56 AM
It could be argued that it might be a cosmetic problem if there weren't numerous reports of leaking tanks across all models.

The basis of the filed lawsuit is a leaking 1198.

I guess my wording could have been better.  I was only referring to the tanks replaced for cosmetic reasons.  Leaking tanks are clearly not only an emissions violation but a safety recall issue which would be forever.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2011, 07:24:03 AM
I guess my wording could have been better.  I was only referring to the tanks replaced for cosmetic reasons.  Leaking tanks are clearly not only an emissions violation but a safety recall issue which would be forever.

They are causally related problems.  The deformation causes the cosmetic issues, and if it occurs on the sides or bottom of the tank will lead to leaking. 

The fuel flange separates from the metal plate due to the deformation.

In my ad-hoc testing, I was able to get the bottom of the tank to expand and leak.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on January 05, 2011, 09:34:24 AM


They are causally related problems.  The deformation causes the cosmetic issues, and if it occurs on the sides or bottom of the tank will lead to leaking. 

The fuel flange separates from the metal plate due to the deformation.

In my ad-hoc testing, I was able to get the bottom of the tank to expand and leak.

Agreed. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2011, 09:52:09 AM

Agreed. 

My point was that calling the expansion/deformation a "cosmetic" problem hides the fact that it leads to leaking. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: He Man on January 05, 2011, 11:03:20 AM
Well, sort of.  The warranty is 5 years or 30,000 kilometers, whichever comes first.  They have been replacing tanks on bikes over 30K.  The emissions warranty also does not include cosmetic problems.  Unless fuel or fuel vapor is escaping there is no emissions defect.  For some reason I will not speculate on they are using the emission warranty as a mechanism for replacing bad tanks.

my tank got replaced when i was at 22,000mi, ~ 35,000km


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: pianoman011 on January 05, 2011, 12:59:58 PM
Okay. I just did the Caswell Coating to my brand new Monster S4RS replacement tank. I used the entire contents for one application to this tank. It coated the entire tank except for one small spot at the back bottom of the tank at the opening. After I mixed the entire contents of the kit along wit 1/2 once of paint thinner, I poured it all in the tank and swirled, shacked, and any other way of moving it around in the tank, I went to pour out the excess and there was very little. I let it sit upside down for a few minutes and nothing came out. So I set the tank on some plastic the same way it would sit on the bike until the next morning and there was only a small 1 inch drop that came out. So my advice to anyone using this to use the entire kit on one tank to get it to cover in its entirety. I will have to coat the small area that didn't get the coating with the extra kit that I purchased for my 1098R Bayliss.  It is really a very easy process
and the coating is hard as a rock inside. You can definitely tell where the coating is and where it is not. I hope to have the finished product ready by the end of the week. Then i can start on my Bayliss tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on January 06, 2011, 03:11:21 PM
Okay. I just did the Caswell Coating to my brand new Monster S4RS replacement tank. I used the entire contents for one application to this tank. It coated the entire tank except for one small spot at the back bottom of the tank at the opening. After I

If you had to do it again would you use two aplications at ounce instead of the one?  I picked up my S4Rs tank today.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: pcv57 on January 07, 2011, 10:07:33 AM
If you had to do it again would you use two aplications at ounce instead of the one?  I picked up my S4Rs tank today.

I have an 06 s2r1k and had the tank replaced this summer due to swelling. I have now noticed my new tank has started to swell also. I have ordered the Caswell Coatings epoxy, will drain the tank and bring it inside where I hope it will shrink back before I do the coating.
According to a posting on this forum, it appears the swelling is due to ethanol in the gas and that the ethanol separates from the gas and causes condensation. The water in the tank sinks and is what is abosrbed by the plastic. If this is true, has anyone tried the Star Tron fuel additive? It is supposed to keep the ethanol from separating and it would seem to minimize the effects of the ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 07, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
I use Startron, but more to keep the effects of the separated ethanol from becoming a driveability issue.

I also have a steel tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on January 07, 2011, 04:08:37 PM
Do you guys use Startron in every tank fill? I'm thinking of using for the effects of ethanol on my engine.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 07, 2011, 04:12:27 PM
Do you guys use Startron in every tank?  Im thinking of using for effects of ethnol on my engine. 
It depends on the season and the ride. If I'm out for a 300 mile day I don't add it every time I fill up. I might drop some in when I get home though. I always add it to the tank of my track bike after each day/weekend.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: pianoman011 on January 09, 2011, 06:28:28 AM
If you had to do it again would you use two aplications at ounce instead of the one?  I picked up my S4Rs tank today.

Yes. I would 2 applications at one time on a brand new tank. One application covered 95% of the tank, but did leave a couple of places uncovered. I am waiting on my additional application to arrive so that I can finish the tank this week. So far I really like this product.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on January 09, 2011, 07:31:34 AM
Without a doubt, the Startron/Stabil additives make my S2R1000 run much better.
I add it every to every tank to try to fight the ethanol, but regardless, it makes my bike run totally awesome:  smoother idle and smoother under power, more torquey (my guess), better cold starts and a great tone at the exhaust note.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on January 13, 2011, 09:51:03 AM
6 month into Caswell on the replacement tank.  No expansion yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: He Man on January 13, 2011, 02:18:36 PM
4 months in without any coating and no expansion. bikes been sitting in the garage and ive maybe passed 3 gallons through inthe past month (been snowing here) too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on January 15, 2011, 06:47:05 PM
Has anyone had issues with the quality of the replacement tank (like in surface and aesthetics)?  

I did an exchange today, the dealer let me bring in my tank (I removed it in the home shop) and we did the hardware swap.  Upon closer inspection when I returned home, I saw an awful lot of orangepeel and a highlight issue at the tank filler surface:

(http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/orangepeel16/1157794090_pmwyb-L.jpg)

(http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/orangepeel13/1157794091_wWEjb-L.jpg)

(http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/orangepeel3/1157792808_jErNW-L.jpg)

(http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/scratches2/1157794343_dtai5-L.jpg)

(http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/tanksweetheart/1157794438_P6AgJ-L.jpg)

http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/15464222_AqnAd (http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/15464222_AqnAd)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on January 16, 2011, 06:15:50 AM
Some Sport Classic owners have complained about the quality of the finish on their replacement tanks, but it seems to be hit-or-miss.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on January 16, 2011, 09:14:12 AM
Has anyone had issues with the quality of the replacement tank (like in surface and aesthetics)?

The finish on my replacement S2R1000 tank is fine, but the cutout on the strip is not centered around the fuel filler as well as the original one.  

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on January 16, 2011, 01:14:08 PM
It has been 2 months since my S2R 1K tank was replaced, and there is no sign of swelling. No Caswell treatment was applied.

By the way, the new tank looks great as far as finish is concerned.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on January 17, 2011, 07:40:18 AM
The finish on my replacement S2R1000 tank is fine, but the cutout on the strip is not centered around the fuel filler as well as the stock one.  

-Jeff


Mine is the same. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on January 17, 2011, 04:13:07 PM
It has been 2 months since my S2R 1K tank was replaced, and there is no sign of swelling. No Caswell treatment was applied.

By the way, the new tank looks great as far as finish is concerned.

Just curious, why would you not but a coating on the inside if you no it is going to swell?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on January 17, 2011, 06:05:10 PM
^^^^^^
The dealer in San Diego told me that he had not had any problems with the replacement tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on January 18, 2011, 03:57:06 AM
^^^^^^
The dealer in San Diego told me that he had not had any problems with the replacement tanks.

Then his replacement tanks are either sitting on his shelves, or he lied.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 18, 2011, 04:07:23 AM
Then his replacement tanks are either sitting on his shelves, or he lied.

Not necessarily.  The problem with anecdotal information is that it is not verifiable.

Moreover, gas formulations vary even during the year, so his replacement tanks may have been lucky.  If the percent by volume of ethanol locally has been lower for whatever reason, then the expansion problem will show up slower.  Also, did he coat the tanks??

However, just because no one complained yet doesn't mean it hasn't happened.  If he can show that he followed up with every customer that got a tank replacement, then I'll buy it, otherwise "take with a grain of salt."


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on January 18, 2011, 06:10:37 AM
My first tank took about 2 yrs for any deformation to show. Give it some time.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on January 18, 2011, 06:20:41 AM
Seems that during part of this discussion, I read something about the tanks' ability to return to original shape.  Meaning that if the tank was drained of gas, it would naturally 'dry out' and return to its desired shape.

Of course I haven't seen in personally, but could this be true, and if so, what's the time required to 'dry it out'? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on January 18, 2011, 08:18:05 AM
They can apparently return to their original shape, but according to a few big brained chemistry people, the actual alteration to the material's properties do not return; thus leaving you with a weakened (theoretical) fuel tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 18, 2011, 08:19:54 AM
The tank wall will dry out enough to shrink but it is unlikely all of the moisture has come out.  There is no set time, but it is probably predictably long or short according to how long it took to deform.  Also, it is unknown to what extent ethanol affects the integrity of the material.  Some types of nylon are SOLUBLE in ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on January 18, 2011, 09:40:41 AM
Nylon 6,6 properties:
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?bassnum=O2500&group=General&ckck=1 (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?bassnum=O2500&group=General&ckck=1)
Edit:  Fixed the link:  http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=a2e79a3451984d58a8a442c37a226107&ckck=1 (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=a2e79a3451984d58a8a442c37a226107&ckck=1)

Here's a study done on the effects of E20 on various plastics, including Nylon 6,6:
http://www.mda.state.mn.us/news/publications/renewable/ethanol/e20onplastics.pdf (http://www.mda.state.mn.us/news/publications/renewable/ethanol/e20onplastics.pdf)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 18, 2011, 10:23:21 AM
Nylon 6,6 properties:
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?bassnum=O2500&group=General&ckck=1 (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?bassnum=O2500&group=General&ckck=1)

Here's a study done on the effects of E20 on various plastics, including Nylon 6,6:
http://www.mda.state.mn.us/news/publications/renewable/ethanol/e20onplastics.pdf (http://www.mda.state.mn.us/news/publications/renewable/ethanol/e20onplastics.pdf)

The Minnesota study is well known.  The material is not Nylon 6,6 but Nylon 6 or PA6. 

For those who don't want to sort, the results show a minus 0.5 of weight and minus 0.4 decrease in volume (size) with regular gasoline, a ~9% increase in weight and ~11% volume in the presence of E10 fuel, and a ~9.5% increase in weight and a ~12% increase in volume in the presence of E20 fuel.

As one increases the percent volume of ethanol in solution, the material expands/absorbs more.

The study does not consider any other properties of the materials, such as water absorption.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on January 19, 2011, 09:45:36 AM
The Minnesota study is well known.  The material is not Nylon 6,6 but Nylon 6 or PA6. 

For those who don't want to sort, the results show a minus 0.5 of weight and minus 0.4 decrease in volume (size) with regular gasoline, a ~9% increase in weight and ~11% volume in the presence of E10 fuel, and a ~9.5% increase in weight and a ~12% increase in volume in the presence of E20 fuel.

As one increases the percent volume of ethanol in solution, the material expands/absorbs more.

The study does not consider any other properties of the materials, such as water absorption.

Actually, the study did include water in the test fuel to better simulate the real world.  That would be why E20 didn't cause significantly more mass/volume gain than E10 even though it has twice the ethanol.

And I've been told Nylon 6,6 everywhere else I've read up on the issue.  So it's really Nylon 6?

Either way, the matweb link shows that Nylon 6,6 absorbs up to 9% (in terms of mass increase), which jibes very closely with the Minnesota study.  Nylon 6 is similar, with the ability to increase its mass by up to 10% through water absorption.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 19, 2011, 11:03:16 AM
Actually, the study did include water in the test fuel to better simulate the real world.  That would be why E20 didn't cause significantly more mass/volume gain than E10 even though it has twice the ethanol.

And I've been told Nylon 6,6 everywhere else I've read up on the issue.  So it's really Nylon 6?

Either way, the matweb link shows that Nylon 6,6 absorbs up to 9% (in terms of mass increase), which jibes very closely with the Minnesota study.  Nylon 6 is similar, with the ability to increase its mass by up to 10% through water absorption.

The nylon type is stated on the tank itself.  Look on the bottom.  PA6.

The increase difference between the E10 and E20 fuels may in fact be significant, that's a separate study.  As far as the MN test's inclusion of water, it isn't the point of the study so they weren't looking at water absorption.  However, PA6's water absorption rate increases as the temperature increases. 

Put a half gallon of hot water into your tank and in the morning it will look like a balloon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on February 01, 2011, 08:59:53 AM
I thought maybe I should stick this in here as I got zero response on it from the tech department, my tank had expanded length wise so much I could not get it off and on with out a screw driver.   Unless mine is a worst case scenario, just curious to know what is everyone doing about their particular problem?   They will keep expanding.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46057.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46057.0)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on February 01, 2011, 08:01:24 PM
Had the same problem with mine, BoDiddley...as long as your talking about using the screwdriver to remove the tank from the bike hinge first. My latch was fully inoperable because the tank was swollen to the point that it was pushed all the way up against the ignition housing. Only thing to do is take it in for replacement. Don't forget to fill out the NHTSA complaint.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: gr1976 on February 02, 2011, 08:10:06 AM
I plan on coating the tank on the bike I just purchased w/ the Caswell kit. However, if it does end up expanding (seems doubtful) will this give the factory a reason not to replace my tank because modified it?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 02, 2011, 08:13:57 AM
Everyone I've spoken to who has gotten a tank inspected and replaced has said that the inspection did not include looking inside the tank.

Furthermore, the coating is transparent, so I don't know how they would even know it's been coated unless chemically tested.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Case S2R on February 02, 2011, 04:50:08 PM
You can tell a tank is coated by looking in it, no need for a chemical test.  When you coat your new one you will understand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 02, 2011, 06:06:47 PM
You can tell a tank is coated by looking in it, no need for a chemical test.  When you coat your new one you will understand.


It's true, I was referring to the dealer inspection and that they would only be able to look thru the filler for that.  The first time they will have a chance to see inside the tank closeup is after the replacement has already been approved and new tank received by the dealer.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on February 04, 2011, 03:50:38 PM
Ah, the joys of owning a Ducati....

Tank #3 has expanded beyond the shims and is showing its first blister.  Dealer has reported it and hopes to get yet another replacement tank shortly.  Tank #4 will be sealed on my dime before putting it on the bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Massinova on February 04, 2011, 05:32:48 PM
Ever since I've heard about the expanding tank problem, I was quick to make sure I restricted the amount of ethanol mixed gas in my tank.  However, my tank is slowly starting to ripple and dimple more with time.   I really don't want another similar type tank put on my bike, I want them (Ducati) to replace it with a permanent fix.   IMO, not only 1 but 3 tank replacements is a huge waste of time, effort and  resources for the customer, the dealer, and Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on February 04, 2011, 06:11:53 PM
Ever since I've heard about the expanding tank problem, I was quick to make sure I restricted the amount of ethanol mixed gas in my tank.  However, my tank is slowly starting to ripple and dimple more with time.   I really don't want another similar type tank put on my bike, I want them (Ducati) to replace it with a permanent fix.   IMO, not only 1 but 3 tank replacements is a huge waste of time, effort and  resources for the customer, the dealer, and Ducati.

I couldn't agree more; however, it seems that all Ducati will do for now is replace the stock tank with another. At least, untill someone sues them and wins.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: cdnrcr on February 07, 2011, 10:02:51 PM
Signed up. thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on February 10, 2011, 03:43:31 AM
Seems even the new style Monsters are having issues with tank expansion.  I just posted a link to this thread over on ducati.ms: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/104841-m696-tank-expansion.html#post1020460 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/104841-m696-tank-expansion.html#post1020460)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on February 10, 2011, 08:06:53 PM
Ever since I've heard about the expanding tank problem, I was quick to make sure I restricted the amount of ethanol mixed gas in my tank.  However, my tank is slowly starting to ripple and dimple more with time.   I really don't want another similar type tank put on my bike, I want them (Ducati) to replace it with a permanent fix.   IMO, not only 1 but 3 tank replacements is a huge waste of time, effort and  resources for the customer, the dealer, and Ducati.

Im sure Ducati agrees with you, as pissed as we are about this how pissed do you think Ducati is at Acerbis for not making a tank that holds up and reduces Ducati's PR? rest assured they've been up their ass about this from day 1, just because WE haven't heard/seen squat doesn't mean wheels aren't turning behind the scenes.

IMO they should have ditched Acerbis as soon as they started seeing this and found someone who could do it right (even going back to steel tanks) but im sure there are obligations we don't know about that are keeping the companies tied. given the recent litigation I wouldn't be surprised to see a change soon, especially if the new monsters are going to start pissing gas on the exhaust...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: poseur on February 20, 2011, 09:18:10 AM
Does anyone know what's going on with that class action law suit? When can we expect some sort of fix for this issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 20, 2011, 09:31:21 AM
These cases can move very slowly.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on February 20, 2011, 02:08:02 PM
Seems even the new style Monsters are having issues with tank expansion.  I just posted a link to this thread over on ducati.ms: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/104841-m696-tank-expansion.html#post1020460 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/104841-m696-tank-expansion.html#post1020460)


I can understand tanks made between 05-08 having expanding issues (Even though acerbis/ducati should have researched potential issues w/ ethanol), but the newer bikes?  With how publicized the issue has been, you would think Ducati would have done everything possible to avoid this on their newer bikes .

 I'm scratching my head on this one???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on February 20, 2011, 06:05:29 PM

I can understand tanks made between 05-08 having expanding issues (Even though acerbis/ducati should have researched potential issues w/ ethanol), but the newer bikes?  With how publicized the issue has been, you would think Ducati would have done everything possible to avoid this on their newer bikes .

 I'm scratching my head on this one???

Is their a definite with confirmation that the new tanks are made of the same material as pre 08?   I must have missed it?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on February 20, 2011, 06:30:07 PM
Is their a definite with confirmation that the new tanks are made of the same material as pre 08?   I must have missed it?

They are not the same material.  There have been some tank problems with the new generation Monsters, not as common and maybe not related.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg809084#msg809084 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg809084#msg809084)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on February 20, 2011, 06:54:22 PM
They are not the same material.  There have been some tank problems with the new generation Monsters, not as common and maybe not related.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg809084#msg809084 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg809084#msg809084)
Does that mean my replacement tank won't expand like the oroginal? That's what the dealer told me. (07 S2R 1K)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 20, 2011, 07:20:35 PM
They are not the same material.  There have been some tank problems with the new generation Monsters, not as common and maybe not related.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg809084#msg809084 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg809084#msg809084)

US M1100s are the same material (PA).  Euro and Oz tanks are not (XLPE)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on February 20, 2011, 07:24:48 PM
Does that mean my replacement tank won't expand like the oroginal? That's what the dealer told me. (07 S2R 1K)
Your dealer lied to you or doesn't know what he's talking about. Your replacement is the same tank as your original.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on February 20, 2011, 07:30:26 PM
I've only used about three tanks of gas in the replacement tank. Is it too late to coat it?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on February 20, 2011, 07:57:35 PM
I've only used about three tanks of gas in the replacement tank. Is it too late to coat it?
No it's not to late. I'd pull it off and coat it now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jwoconnor on February 20, 2011, 08:38:34 PM
Checked my tank yesterday and I have ripples on both sides. Damn. Mine seems to be purely a cosmetic issue at this point so I suppose I'll have to live with it until it affects the mounting points or leaks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 20, 2011, 08:39:26 PM
I've only used about three tanks of gas in the replacement tank. Is it too late to coat it?

if it shows no evidence of expansion/deformation, then drain it, wash it out and let it sit for a while to dry (long time) and then coat it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on February 20, 2011, 08:49:06 PM
No it's not to late. I'd pull it off and coat it now.
Thanks  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on February 21, 2011, 04:53:56 AM
Thanks  [thumbsup]
Clean it like ducatiz suggests.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on February 21, 2011, 12:39:32 PM
just ordered my caswell kit, a friend of mine is letting me borrow his garage for a while to take care of it...

be putting in cf termi's, sending the headers out to be ceramic coated, and putting in a evotech at the same time... i figured since i was doing so much already, might as well just spend a bit more time and take care of the tank too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on February 22, 2011, 09:23:06 AM
Initial case management conference rescheduled for March 3rd.
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2010cv05246/234359/36/ (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2010cv05246/234359/36/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 22, 2011, 09:29:38 AM
Initial case management conference rescheduled for March 3rd.
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2010cv05246/234359/36/ (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2010cv05246/234359/36/)

those are just procedural, there could be a dozen before any actual testimony.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on February 22, 2011, 10:39:05 AM
those are just procedural, there could be a dozen before any actual testimony.

Thus the reason I said "Initial case management conference rescheduled for March 3rd" rather than "OMG!  On March 3rd we're going to get some answerzzz!!!!1!"  lol


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 22, 2011, 10:46:39 AM
(http://images2.memegenerator.net/willy-wonka/ImageMacro/2895618/You-must-be-new-here.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: factorPlayer on March 03, 2011, 09:00:11 PM
Well my replacement tank that is all of 3 months old is swollen up just like the old one - wtf!?

I knew they were the same tanks, but 3 months? come on... 

Oh and I've barely read any of this thread... I guess I should have been more on top of things. 

I took it by the dealer and they took some pics - do you think it will be replaced by Ducati again?

Sucks but that may mean selling the bike if there's no resolution... and the multistrada I was looking at has the same issue too - nice.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on March 04, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
Well my replacement tank that is all of 3 months old is swollen up just like the old one - wtf!?

I knew they were the same tanks, but 3 months? come on... 

Oh and I've barely read any of this thread... I guess I should have been more on top of things. 

I took it by the dealer and they took some pics - do you think it will be replaced by Ducati again?

Sucks but that may mean selling the bike if there's no resolution... and the multistrada I was looking at has the same issue too - nice.

read up on here... the only sort of fix there is right now...

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46057.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46057.0)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2011, 06:32:10 AM
If you got a replacement tank, what is the date of manufacture?

You find it on the underside, it looks like this:

Date clock molding.  Dots indicate month, numbers indicate year:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_b802c796.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/b802c796.jpg)

Final inspection stamp (Controllo Finale) :
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_7a8e9439.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/7a8e9439.jpg)




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on March 23, 2011, 07:32:16 AM
Got mine replaced in Nov of 10 with a tank made in May:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/jimwatsondc/Ducati/DSCN0114.jpg)

I didn't see an inspection stamp. Where should it be hiding?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2011, 07:33:17 AM
Got mine replaced in Nov of 10 with a tank made in May:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/jimwatsondc/Ducati/DSCN0114.jpg)

I didn't see an inspection stamp. Where should it be hiding?


on the side bottom.  not on the same surface as those.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on March 23, 2011, 07:37:45 AM
If you got a replacement tank, what is the date of manufacture?


Does the date matter?  Have they changed anything?  Hope so.  I've got about 3 months on my THIRD tank and so far no problemo.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2011, 07:43:07 AM
Does the date matter?  Have they changed anything?  Hope so.  I've got about 3 months on my THIRD tank and so far no problemo.

For me, it mattered because it shows there is no new formulation being used.

For the record, my bike color is "Acid Yellow" which was only offered in 2005, but I am surprised they would still send out a tank that was made in 2005 (and before my original tank was made).

I am curious if others were getting newly-made tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on March 23, 2011, 07:45:23 AM
I put in for a replacement 3 or 4 weeks ago. Still awaiting aprovement from Ducati. Dealer agreed that it had expanded and bubbled. Can I contact DNA to expedite this?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2011, 07:47:04 AM
I put in for a replacement 3 or 4 weeks ago. Still awaiting aprovement from Ducati. Dealer agreed that it had expanded and bubled. Can I contact DNA to expedite this?

Yes, you can, but I would wait a while longer before doing that.

A lot of it is just the Italian side being slow.  Dealer and DNA can't change that.  My tank took 4 months. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on March 23, 2011, 07:50:55 AM
Yes, you can, but I would wait a while longer before doing that.

A lot of it is just the Italian side being slow.  Dealer and DNA can't change that.  My tank took 4 months. 
4 Months  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on March 23, 2011, 01:33:15 PM
Ducatiz- that sucks on toast. Was that a tank one you treated with caswell?
Got 4 months on my new one so far, best of luck, I guess.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on March 31, 2011, 08:34:05 AM
I just filed a claim with my local Duc dealer for tank #3. The second tank didn't even last a year before it started to move around. The asked me to trailer the bike for the initial tank inspection because I would've been over 15,000 miles if I had ridden the bike there.  [bang]  I should know something in a few weeks but I doubt I'll have any trouble getting another tank..

Like I said, the second tank isn't even  a year old yet. It's not smashing up against the ignition ring yet but it's very close to touching. There are also small lump forming on the knee pockets on both sides of the tank. Funny, the original tank didn't start to move for at least two years.

Since my S4RS is white I'm assuming that I'll be getting a newly constructed tank but will post up the date of manufacture to keep the list posted.

Cheers [drink]





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on March 31, 2011, 10:21:13 AM
i'm finally getting in to the dealer on my tank, hopefully they'll replace it... i'm not letting them keep my bike though.
if worse comes to worse, i'm getting a CA-Cycleworks track tank.

I don't want to have to deal with this again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on March 31, 2011, 03:12:05 PM
i'm finally getting in to the dealer on my tank, hopefully they'll replace it... i'm not letting them keep my bike though.
if worse comes to worse, i'm getting a CA-Cycleworks track tank.

I don't want to have to deal with this again.
+ one on the CA Cycleworks tank. I've already had my tank replaced once, and I didn't coat the 2nd tank with Caswells. Why pay $200.00 for coating when I can buy a new tank with a lifetime guaranty for $500.00?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: bikepilot on March 31, 2011, 05:29:49 PM
Anything I need to know before going to the dealer to see about getting the tank taken care of?  (2nd owner, '06 M620 - not sure if still in warranty, but figured I'd check).  The tank on the wife's monster is mashed against ignition quite badly.  I fabbed up a bracket to move the tank rearward just at tiny bit so the key can actually turn (it was jammed tight enough that the key was stuck), but can't go very far 'cause then the seat won't fit. Also with the stock bars in the stock position and steering locks set as from the factory the control pods hit the tank (chipped paint).  The tank is definitely too big for the bike.  Maybe the solution is to pour miracle grow over the rest of the Monster  [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on March 31, 2011, 10:18:11 PM
Anything I need to know before going to the dealer to see about getting the tank taken care of? The tank is definitely too big for the bike.  Maybe the solution is to pour miracle grow over the rest of the Monster  [evil]

Ben at Coleman's (Fairfax) is pretty on the ball when it comes to the replacement  procedure. I just drove mine in, he took pictures and I rode out til the new tank was there.

I like this Monster-grow solution idea...A LOT!!!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: bikepilot on April 01, 2011, 07:08:24 AM
Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a shot  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 01, 2011, 09:06:32 AM
Ben at Coleman's (Fairfax) is pretty on the ball when it comes to the replacement  procedure. I just drove mine in, he took pictures and I rode out til the new tank was there.

I like this Monster-grow solution idea...A LOT!!!!!

Good to know.

I assume they aren't still requiring a deposit on the cost of the new tank until it comes in?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on April 01, 2011, 05:44:05 PM
Good to know.

I assume they aren't still requiring a deposit on the cost of the new tank until it comes in?

That went away at the same time. I think the got a call from DNA stimulated by some Ducatiz guy. ;) They only asked if I would bring the bike in within 1 week of the time the tank arrived and asked me to leave it overnight. I dropped it off in the evening and it was ready the next afternoon. Very painless, except it was cold as hell when I picked it up!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on April 02, 2011, 07:16:57 AM
For what it's worth, Batley Cycles in Rockville, MD seems to be on the ball with tank replacements. I'm expecting to hear some sort of conformation that tank #2 will be replaced soon. Their tech knew exactly what to look for.  [clap]

Cheers
Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 07, 2011, 11:11:41 AM
Yes, you can, but I would wait a while longer before doing that.

A lot of it is just the Italian side being slow.  Dealer and DNA can't change that.  My tank took 4 months. 
I contacted DNA about an update on my tank through their online form yesterday. Today I received a call from DNA telling me that my dealer has yet to file the claim.  [bang] [bang]
A very nice woman informed me that she called my dealer and told him to submit the claim today and she would follow up with me next week.
 I don't know who to believe, I checked in with my dealer a few times. He said he submitted the claim and could see that it was still pending on the computer. I'd like to believe he's not lying to me, but I don't. I've lost all confidence in him, it's not the first time I've got the screws. It looks like I'm going to be looking for a new dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 07, 2011, 11:48:09 AM
I contacted DNA about an update on my tank through their online form yesterday. Today I received a call from DNA telling me that my dealer has yet to file the claim.  [bang] [bang]
A very nice woman informed me that she called my dealer and told him to submit the claim today and she would follow up with me next week.
 I don't know who to believe, I checked in with my dealer a few times. He said he submitted the claim and could see that it was still pending on the computer. I'd like to believe he's not lying to me, but I don't. I've lost all confidence in him, it's not the first time I've got the screws. It looks like I'm going to be looking for a new dealer.


From what I have seen over the last year, it is probably the dealer, either by ignorance or laziness.  DNA has been pretty good about following up on questions and complaints, which I think people need to give them credit for.  How many times has VW/GM/Toyota/Honda/? called anyone back like that?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 07, 2011, 12:02:41 PM
From what I have seen over the last year, it is probably the dealer, either by ignorance or laziness.  DNA has been pretty good about following up on questions and complaints, which I think people need to give them credit for.  How many times has VW/GM/Toyota/Honda/? called anyone back like that?

I was impressed how quickly DNA contacted me. It was under a day and a real live person called me. I thanked her and voiced  concerns about my dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 07, 2011, 12:03:29 PM

I was impressed how quickly DNA contacted me. It was under a day and a real live person called me. I thanked her and voiced my concerns about me dealer.

Are you Scottish?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 07, 2011, 12:07:56 PM
Are you Scottish?
No, autocorrect on stupid iPhone.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 07, 2011, 12:41:11 PM
No, autocorrect on stupid iPhone.


make sure the Scottish dialect autocorrect is disabled. :-)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Jarvicious on April 07, 2011, 04:38:53 PM
I just had the old girl in at Moto Europa in St. Louis and so far they've taken fantastic care of me.  The services manager said that they've had 3 or 4 go through without a hitch (even some older bikes with high-ish mileage) so I'm pretty hopeful, not to mention they just opened their doors in October so they've been pretty eager to earn and keep business.  This was Tuesday and he said about 6 weeks to get the tank from Italy, so I'll keep everyone posted.  Pretty jazzed though.

Thanks again, Ducatiz, for all your help.  I wouldn't have even known my tank had a problem if it wasn't for you and this forum.  A million times  [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 08, 2011, 04:28:40 AM
I just had the old girl in at Moto Europa in St. Louis and so far they've taken fantastic care of me.  The services manager said that they've had 3 or 4 go through without a hitch (even some older bikes with high-ish mileage) so I'm pretty hopeful, not to mention they just opened their doors in October so they've been pretty eager to earn and keep business.  This was Tuesday and he said about 6 weeks to get the tank from Italy, so I'll keep everyone posted.  Pretty jazzed though.

Thanks again, Ducatiz, for all your help.  I wouldn't have even known my tank had a problem if it wasn't for you and this forum.  A million times  [beer]

I'm glad to hear you got good treatment all around.  I would also recommend that you look into getting the tank coated as some folks (including me) have had a bad 2nd tank as well.

It would really suck if people were unaware and Ducati not held accountable.  That being said, I think they've done a great job (DNA).  The dealers are another story:  Some are acting A++ like yours and some not so good.  Maybe this will give DNA some feedback on their dealer network as well...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on April 10, 2011, 04:41:28 PM
It was near 80 degrees this afternoon, and the S2R has been without a gas tank for over two months.

Short story is that my dealer's replacement looked like the sides of the tank were staggered at the centerline.  Meaning there was a noticeable dip in the surface at the tank surface just rear of the filler cap.  I took that tank back to the dealer, who said he would contact DNA for a replacement of the replacement.  There was also a great deal of orange peel paint on the lower sides of the tank.

That was in January.  I'll throw the dealer a bone and admit I need to call (though I have emailed several times) but knowing the material problem that contributed to this swelling, it will likely be my last Ducati.  My M900 is also in the garage, no problems with that at all gas tank, engine, carbs, etc.

It's a real pity, since when the S2R is running, it's a good bike.  Then again, so are many many other bikes in the same price range.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on April 14, 2011, 08:06:46 AM
So just two weeks or so after tank #2 was inspected, tank #3 has arrived at the dealer. Damn that was fast. My plan is to trailer the bike, have the new tank installed & trailer the bike back home, never letting any gas be put in the tank. I'm going to coat this one with Caswells. 

To date, has anyone had ANY expansion issues with a new tank that was coated with Caswells?  The local dealer has not had any first hand experience using Caswells coating on our tanks. He seems to think that Ducati will be replacing these tanks for years no matter how far out of warranty you may be. Sounds like good talk but I'm not so sure I believe him..

cheers

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 14, 2011, 08:13:46 AM
I've not heard of anyone having problems with a coated tank.  Some multistrada riders are going on 18+ months with the same tank and no problems.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucRS on April 14, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
Started to notice rippling on my "08" S4RS.
Local Duc dealer closed shop and I was wondering if I could go to any Duc Dealer to have my tank replaced? and does it come in it's original color?

94 pages of info :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 14, 2011, 10:30:30 AM
Started to notice rippling on my "08" S4RS.
Local Duc dealer closed shop and I was wondering if I could go to any Duc Dealer to have my tank replaced? and does it come in it's original color?

94 pages of info :o

Yes, go to any dealer.  SOME dealers will allow you to take extensive photos and email them (with bike info, i.e. VIN) and then verify when you come in for the replacement.

Give the dealer you go to a call first if they are far away and ask if you can do that.

I have HEARD that you can request any color you want.  Some dealers swapped bike colors on new bikes to suit a buyer's request.  I had a friend who did this on his new bike, he wanted a silver/black but wanted the S2R800, so the dealer swapped the tang with silver and he paid $250 extra for the swap.

Give them a call.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 20, 2011, 05:00:29 PM
New tank is on the way. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on April 20, 2011, 05:31:32 PM
Contacted Ducati NA customer service with my personal explanation and observations of this debacle.  From providing OE tanks that were never designed to hold Ethanol content fuels (despite it being in fuel mixtures from as early as 2002) to supplying substandard quality on replacement tanks I have had enough.  Ducati fighting this event is just a signal they don't really want to do right by the customer, but are clearing the shelves of old tanks (as evidenced by earlier pics showing 2005 manufacture dates).

Working at GM (yes, I know boo hiss), it's clear to me that if GM tried to pull this stunt they'd be publicly loathed and financially affected. They would also suffer reduced sales numbers in years following a major problem like this.  These details were noted in the letter to DNA with pics of the tank in question.  And its funhouse surfacing, orange peel / scratch paint with offset mold lines at the centerline of the filler neck.  Close proximity to prototypes concept cars for the last 20 years teaches you how to tell well-made products from poor ones, so these details stick out like acetone covered thumbtacks to me.

Of course, I'm venting here but the communiqué was written far more diplomatically.  We will see if I hear anything more after it reaches their service department.  I'll post anything new when it comes my way.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducgrl on April 20, 2011, 06:30:39 PM
So your saying that there are no new tanks being made? so in say 5+ years, when they depleted their inventory of tanks, then we are all screwed?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on April 21, 2011, 04:39:28 AM
sounds like we're all make the beast with two backsed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on April 21, 2011, 07:28:14 AM
I still can't believe this shit's going on.  Maybe TPG can take them over (again) and put some spring in their step like before.  Considering their sales are down from last  year and BMW is up 12% they better look at the brand again before pissing so many people off or sue Acerbis.  Either way this shit better get resolved because with options like Aprilia and BMW at lower prices those brands are looking mighty fine these days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 21, 2011, 08:00:34 AM
Aprilia uses the same tanks and owners are having the same issues.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on April 21, 2011, 09:24:53 AM
huh, that I didn't know.  lesson learned for today  [thumbsup]
still though $15k versus $22k, I'll take the $15K with tank problems.  :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on April 21, 2011, 11:01:40 AM
As Izaak pointed out, several manufacturers are experiencing the same issues with the Acerbis sourced nylon fuel tanks.  I'm curious to see if MV is using their tanks, as that is most likely the next bike I get.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on April 21, 2011, 12:03:31 PM
I would not bet my first born that the date on the bottom of the tank was when it was molded.   It isn't unusual to see molding places never change the date insert in mold tools...



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 21, 2011, 01:08:20 PM
I would not bet my first born that the date on the bottom of the tank was when it was molded.   It isn't unusual to see molding places never change the date insert in mold tools...



That's interesting, except that there is a second hand stamp which shows the tank was inspected by Ducati, the date is in 2006, I can't make out the month, but it looks like 3/2006, which would mean the tank was inspected a year after being made, which I have to assume is a final QA before assembly.

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/7a8e9439.jpg)

so someone forgot to change the date on their hand stamp too


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on April 21, 2011, 06:54:45 PM
As Izaak pointed out, several manufacturers are experiencing the same issues with the Acerbis sourced nylon fuel tanks.  I'm curious to see if MV is using their tanks, as that is most likely the next bike I get.

i'm really suprised that it's still going on when it's multiple manufacturers sourcing from the same supplier...  with that many of their customers having issues, you would think acerbis would have done something about it already.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on April 22, 2011, 02:50:17 AM
i'm really suprised that it's still going on when it's multiple manufacturers sourcing from the same supplier...  with that many of their customers having issues, you would think acerbis would have done something about it already.
They have...

their lawyers are in a huddle as we speak.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on April 22, 2011, 04:43:15 AM
It really sucks that Acerbis put such a product into market without proper testing.
It also really sucks that none of the manufacturers thought of doing their OWN quality control.
It also boils down (IMO) to the fact that Ducati (and whomever else) CHOSE to use a plastic fuel tank in the first place.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on April 22, 2011, 08:08:27 AM
I'm sure the chemistry for the plastic tanks was put into place way before politicians got together and decided to put money in their pockets with E10 without ever looking into the reprecusions.

Maybe it isn't Acerbis that should be in court, but the idiots that mandated E10


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 22, 2011, 08:10:51 AM
I'm sure the chemistry for the plastic tanks was put into place way before politicians got together and decided to put money in their pockets with E10 without ever looking into the reprecusions.

Maybe it isn't Acerbis that should be in court, but the idiots that mandated E10

No.

First PA6/Nylon tanks appeared in the mid90s on Cagivas.  All of those had bladders though. 

Ethanol has been added to gasoline since the late 80s (at least in the USA) and acceptable for an additive in Europe at least since the 1990s.

No one considered it a problem back then as it replaced MTBE which is carcinogenic.  Ethanol actually does some good -- it cleans carbs and fuel injectors very well.  In fact, most "fuel system cleaners" are just ethanol.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on April 22, 2011, 11:21:20 AM
I'm sure the chemistry for the plastic tanks was put into place way before politicians got together and decided to put money in their pockets with E10 without ever looking into the reprecusions.

Maybe it isn't Acerbis that should be in court, but the idiots that mandated E10

Agreed.  Our nylon tanks are only the tip of a very big iceberg when it comes to the myriad of problems caused by ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on April 22, 2011, 11:47:34 AM
So your saying that there are no new tanks being made? so in say 5+ years, when they depleted their inventory of tanks, then we are all screwed?


Ducgirl, I'm dropping of my 07 S4RS at Battley's Cycles tomorrow morning for tank #3. When I get it back I'll post the production date. I pretty sure this replacement is out of existing stock just because the dealer had it in hand within three weeks of the request for warranty replacement.

Cheers
Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on April 22, 2011, 02:10:16 PM
Maybe it isn't Acerbis that should be in court, but the idiots that mandated E10

 [thumbsup]
You should see my gas mileage when I drop E85 in the tank of my truck. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on April 23, 2011, 03:41:41 AM


I'm sure the chemistry for the plastic tanks was put into place way before politicians got together and decided to put money in their pockets with E10 without ever looking into the reprecusions.

Maybe it isn't Acerbis that should be in court, but the idiots that mandated E10
I agree with that.  It seems (at least to me) ethanol became a problem in plastic (PA6) tanks when the volume hit 10%.  I could be wrong.

Plastic does have advantages of not corroding or denting.  Way back when E10, then called Gasahol was first introduced in 1978 corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel systems was rampant.

A
No.

First PA6/Nylon tanks appeared in the mid90s on Cagivas.  All of those had bladders though. 

Ethanol has been added to gasoline since the late 80s (at least in the USA) and acceptable for an additive in Europe at least since the 1990s.

No one considered it a problem back then as it replaced MTBE which is carcinogenic.  Ethanol actually does some good -- it cleans carbs and fuel injectors very well.  In fact, most "fuel system cleaners" are just ethanol.


A bladder could be an interesting cure.  This would also work for evaporative emissions (no more canister).


 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducgrl on April 23, 2011, 10:12:06 AM
I'll be picking up my S2R today for the tank change....first one...



Ducgirl, I'm dropping of my 07 S4RS at Battley's Cycles tomorrow morning for tank #3. When I get it back I'll post the production date. I pretty sure this replacement is out of existing stock just because the dealer had it in hand within three weeks of the request for warranty replacement.

Cheers
Mike



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 23, 2011, 03:03:17 PM
If you got a replacement tank, what is the date of manufacture?

You find it on the underside, it looks like this:

Date clock molding.  Dots indicate month, numbers indicate year:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_b802c796.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/b802c796.jpg)

Final inspection stamp (Controllo Finale) :
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_7a8e9439.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/7a8e9439.jpg)




I picked up my wifes replacement today.Looks like it was made in 2010.

(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rllout/tank003.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 23, 2011, 04:33:58 PM
Your wife's replacement or wife's replacement TANK?  :-)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on April 23, 2011, 10:25:27 PM
 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]   [clap]  Well played.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 24, 2011, 02:39:04 AM
Your wife's replacement or wife's replacement TANK?  :-)
I like them young, but 2010 is just plain wrong!
Replacement TANK!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Punx Clever on April 24, 2011, 07:23:09 AM
I like them young, but 2010 is just plain wrong!
Replacement TANK!

If you really think about it, it wouldn't be that wrong... I mean hell, if she was plastic and had a date molded into her... you'd want a fresh one right?  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: bikepilot on April 26, 2011, 04:26:00 AM
I'm glad you got a newer tank, hopefully it'll work better!  I noticed that my Montesa trials bike has a tank made of the same material and is starting to expand.  The PO (I just got the bike) was running half race gas, half premium pump gas (with ethenol no doubt as that's all you can really get around here), or so he said.  I'm going to go to straight race gas and hope it doesn't get any worse. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on April 26, 2011, 04:57:06 PM
Well, noticed sunday the tank I just had replaced in June '10 is starting to ripple and hang off of the frame. [bang]  >:(
I guess I'm taking a trip back to the dealer this weekend. :( I'm sure it'll be my last one since my Fed Emissions warranty expires this year. :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on April 26, 2011, 06:31:18 PM
Well, noticed sunday the tank I just had replaced in June '10 is starting to ripple and hang off of the frame. [bang]  >:(
I guess I'm taking a trip back to the dealer this weekend. :( I'm sure it'll be my last one since my Fed Emissions warranty expires this year. :'(

. . . . .after that, THEN what???  Which is why I'm more than upset about the way this is being handled from DNA.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on April 26, 2011, 06:52:38 PM
Well, noticed sunday the tank I just had replaced in June '10 is starting to ripple and hang off of the frame. [bang]  >:(
I guess I'm taking a trip back to the dealer this weekend. :( I'm sure it'll be my last one since my Fed Emissions warranty expires this year. :'(

. . . . .after that, THEN what???  Which is why I'm more than upset about the way this is being handled from DNA.

I know you guys don't want to go back and read the whole thread.  DNA has been replacing tanks even if the warranty has passed.  Check out the first page, I think that info might actually be posted on the first page.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on April 27, 2011, 03:16:19 PM
I know you guys don't want to go back and read the whole thread.  DNA has been replacing tanks even if the warranty has passed.  Check out the first page, I think that info might actually be posted on the first page.

Oh, I've been following the thread from the beginning, and I know that DNA has been replacing tanks that were past the Fed warranty. My concern is, for how long do we expect them to do that? ??? My current tank lasted roughly 9 months. They aren't fixing the problem. Is DNA going to continue to put a new $1900 tank on my bike every 9 months? I think not. I love my bike, but between the clutch nut fiasco and the tank drama, the love affair isn't the whirlwind romance it once was. It's become hot and dirty, quickies in airport motels! [cheeky] [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on April 27, 2011, 03:34:54 PM
...the love affair isn't the whirlwind romance it once was. It's become hot and dirty, quickies in airport motels! [cheeky] [laugh]

Just make sure your seat back tray is in its full upright position.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on April 27, 2011, 04:03:17 PM
I'm glad you got a newer tank, hopefully it'll work better!  I noticed that my Montesa trials bike has a tank made of the same material and is starting to expand.  The PO (I just got the bike) was running half race gas, half premium pump gas (with ethenol no doubt as that's all you can really get around here), or so he said.  I'm going to go to straight race gas and hope it doesn't get any worse. 
Don't forget to fog that motor after straight race gas.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on May 01, 2011, 09:16:29 AM
The replacement tank the dealer installed last week was produced 09/2010. As soon as got home with the bike I washed out the tank to prep it for Caswells coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on May 02, 2011, 05:19:15 AM
I know you guys don't want to go back and read the whole thread.  DNA has been replacing tanks even if the warranty has passed.  Check out the first page, I think that info might actually be posted on the first page.

I have been following this thread and several others related to the gas tank deformation.

Yes, DNA is replacing affected tanks.  But the replacements will (over time) deform since they're made of the same plastics and in some cases, are manufactured before this debacle became serious.

Caswell coating is one option, but IMHO, WTF is going on when Ducati can't own up to its mistake and make amends with its customers by offering a tank that won't deform?  The owner needs to coat their own tank?  Would you do that in a car?  I mean, seriously, that's BS. 

Give me the option of a rigid tank, metal preferred and I'll even pony up a few bucks for it since I understand the economy of scale involved.  But passing off old previously manufactured tanks and ones that are visually substandard (in my case) that's unmitigated bullsh!t.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 02, 2011, 06:39:40 AM
I have been following this thread and several others related to the gas tank deformation.

Yes, DNA is replacing affected tanks.  But the replacements will (over time) deform since they're made of the same plastics and in some cases, are manufactured before this debacle became serious.

Caswell coating is one option, but IMHO, WTF is going on when Ducati can't own up to its mistake and make amends with its customers by offering a tank that won't deform?  The owner needs to coat their own tank?  Would you do that in a car?  I mean, seriously, that's BS. 

Give me the option of a rigid tank, metal preferred and I'll even pony up a few bucks for it since I understand the economy of scale involved.  But passing off old previously manufactured tanks and ones that are visually substandard (in my case) that's unmitigated bullsh!t.

i used to be angry, but then i think about how much we mod our bikes..  we have no problem spending $1k to put a new exhaust on because the factory one sucks, but for some reason we get infuriated to spend $50 to coat the tank?

I agree, the tanks should not be deforming, but until Ducati stops replacing bad tanks, I don't plan to pop a blood vessel over it.  Annoyed, yes, but not angry.  My point is that it doesn't seem to rise to the level of the legal definition of "product defect" as it is defined in the law and cases regarding motor vehicles, but it is a huge problem when you have it.

has ducati owned up to it?  I think they have, they are just not dealing with it the way people want (i.e. a metal tank or some other material)... they are replacing tanks.  you coat it.  end of problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on May 02, 2011, 07:36:18 AM
i used to be angry, but then i think about how much we mod our bikes..  we have no problem spending $1k to put a new exhaust on because the factory one sucks, but for some reason we get infuriated to spend $50 to coat the tank?

I agree, the tanks should not be deforming, but until Ducati stops replacing bad tanks, I don't plan to pop a blood vessel over it.  Annoyed, yes, but not angry.  My point is that it doesn't seem to rise to the level of the legal definition of "product defect" as it is defined in the law and cases regarding motor vehicles, but it is a huge problem when you have it.

has ducati owned up to it?  I think they have, they are just not dealing with it the way people want (i.e. a metal tank or some other material)... they are replacing tanks.  you coat it.  end of problem.

I think that's where I'm at.  Annoyed, yes.  Popping a blood vessel. . . well not yet. 

Without stating the obvious, DNA's actions split the room.  Some don't mind the quick replacement, while others expect a bit more of a long term fix.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 02, 2011, 07:38:41 AM
I think that's where I'm at.  Annoyed, yes.  Popping a blood vessel. . . well not yet. 

Without stating the obvious, DNA's actions split the room.  Some don't mind the quick replacement, while others expect a bit more of a long term fix.

You should know I've been on top of this from the beginning.  But coming from a legal perspective, there isn't THAT much that can be done to force a different response AT THIS POINT.

Unfortunately, it may take someone dying or being injured, but honestly, the chances of that are pretty low. 

Getting a virgin tank (when you are out of warranty) and spending $50 for the coating (or $200 to have someone do it) isn't such a bad deal. 

Sucks, yes.  But nothing is perfect.   [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on May 02, 2011, 12:09:40 PM


Getting a virgin tank (when you are out of warranty) and spending $50 for the coating (or $200 to have someone do it) isn't such a bad deal. 

Sucks, yes.  But nothing is perfect.   [thumbsdown]


And in my case paying DP to paint the tank again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 02, 2011, 12:11:55 PM


And in my case paying DP to paint the tank again.

Why? custom paint job?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on May 02, 2011, 12:31:52 PM
Why? custom paint job?
Yep, the previous owner had Nate paint it. So I coated the new one and drove it down to Nate last week.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on May 02, 2011, 04:36:44 PM
do you think ducati would ever just offer to coat the tank for free instead of replacing ad infinitum?  seems like the easier route... esp when the old tank supply finally start to dry up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 02, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
do you think ducati would ever just offer to coat the tank for free instead of replacing ad infinitum?  seems like the easier route... esp when the old tank supply finally start to dry up.

i suggested it to them.  i don't know if they will.  there is no reason they couldn't.. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on May 04, 2011, 04:12:41 AM
i suggested it to them.  i don't know if they will.  there is no reason they couldn't.. 
Wasn't there a certification issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 04, 2011, 04:19:26 AM
Wasn't there a certification issue?

the issue was doing it during manufacture. 

my suggestion was to put it in the DP catalogue, right next to the no-restriction exhausts, race ECUs and high comp pistons, also all problematic for road homologation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on May 04, 2011, 04:27:08 AM
gotcha


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Loyalizer on May 05, 2011, 07:13:54 AM
So I have a Monster with a tank that has expanded, who do I call, what do I do...?  Cause its a little difficult to latch it back once you've undone it...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on May 05, 2011, 07:25:13 AM
the issue was doing it during manufacture. 

my suggestion was to put it in the DP catalogue, right next to the no-restriction exhausts, race ECUs and high comp pistons, also all problematic for road homologation.

i think the problem with that route is that is ducati basically admitting fault because there is no other reason to have that as an accessory other than tank expansion.

i dont think their lawyers would allow them to do it unless they lose the class action.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 05, 2011, 08:11:11 AM
i think the problem with that route is that is ducati basically admitting fault because there is no other reason to have that as an accessory other than tank expansion.

i dont think their lawyers would allow them to do it unless they lose the class action.


and you don't think replacing thousands of tanks shows they accept the tank expansion is a problem?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on May 05, 2011, 08:14:52 AM

and you don't think replacing thousands of tanks shows they accept the tank expansion is a problem?

i think it's more of a accepting it, but not coming out and stating it.  unless they've made a formal declaration that they messed up that i might have missed?  from what i've understood so far, it's sort of like a unpublished workaround, not something like a full out recall where they've contacted every owner and told them to come in if they have any problems.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on May 13, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
So, after four plus months of waiting for my dealer to tend to the paint issues on the replacement tank (orange peel, scuffs, etc), I got the tank back. Weird thing was that there was residual gasoline in it. I never tipped a can into it nor filled it before returning it to said dealer. He said his paint guy "fixed" the orange peel etc. To which I call bullish!t. A high school paint minor could have tended to these issues with more enthusiasm.

So, I guess I'll have to take this up directly with DNA. What a flipping debacle. Tells me Ducati is only in it for the MSRP. After that, sayonara sucker!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on May 14, 2011, 01:19:52 PM
Finally made it over to my dealer to start the process for my second tank. It's swollen so much, I can't un latch it and my Arrow steering stabilizer is hitting it at full lock. :( Svc mgr took pics and said he would submit the claim, but he couldn't promise DNA would replace it this time. He told me DNA's position now is to review each on a case by case basis. They are not replacing them under the Fed Emissions warranty since they don't leak, he said, and it's their position that it is cosmetic only. >:( [bang]
I think I am done. If they do replace this tank, I'm selling the bike. If they don't replace it, I'll strip it down and sell the parts. :'( I just don't understand how Ducati thinks it will continue to survive when it collectively gives it's LOYAL customers/FANS the finger! ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dubbedown on May 21, 2011, 11:52:42 AM
So after learning how to ride on a 03 M620 and later trying few other bikes (r6, sc 1000 mono, D675), finally got back on a monster - and the one I've always wanted, 06 S2R 800 red on white with 1300 miles. Ironically I had my tank on the SC replaced but at the time I wasn't familiar with the problem and was told it was a paint defect. Now that I am up to speed on the issue it does suck we have to deal with this and there's no real fix from Ducati. But as of now the S2R I picked up does look trouble free. Low miles + owner properly winterizing the bike could've helped but I just received my Caswell kit so I'll report back after I apply it. Fingers crossed....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Caswell question
Post by: wantingaduc on May 26, 2011, 06:47:40 PM
I just got my 2006 620 dark back from my local dealership after they replaced my second tank, which was 16 months old, due to expansion again.

I asked them to Caswell coat the tank.
When I picked the bike up I looked into the tank I can see the Caswell coating peeling inside the tank, right up near the filler neck. The product is soft and can be plucked out with a pair of tweezers.  The service manger said that when they were finished coating it the product had completely hardened. He said he would call Caswell and ask if this had happened before and if there was anything that could be done at this point. He thought that it might have been the fuel getting into the lining where it hadn't completely adhered to the tank or possibly where the coating hadn't completely covered the tank.

Has anyone else experienced this situation and if so what should I do at this point.
I'm not sure what I should do next. If the Caswell lining isn't adhering to the tank I'm pretty sure it's juts going to expand again and I'm thinking that now that my emissions warranty is about to expire Duati might leave me out in the wind on the next one.

I love this bike and it's one of my keepers, but I'm bummed at the thought of having to buy an aluminium tank just so I can finally cure the expansion problem...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on May 26, 2011, 06:58:27 PM
^^^^^^
California Cycleworks Track Tank for Ducati Monster S2R
SKU:MTT43.S2RPrice:$469.00 Fitment
Ducati Monster S2R 1000, 800 Monster 695 (2007-2008), 620 (2005-2006)

Buy it and be done. Lifetime guarantee.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on May 27, 2011, 04:40:08 AM
^^^^^^
California Cycleworks Track Tank for Ducati Monster S2R
SKU:MTT43.S2RPrice:$469.00 Fitment
Ducati Monster S2R 1000, 800 Monster 695 (2007-2008), 620 (2005-2006)

Buy it and be done. Lifetime guarantee.

i'll be jumping on it soon enough.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on May 27, 2011, 02:59:50 PM
Think Duc Motor Holding will reimburse us for one? ;D
But seriously- this still sux.
Thanks for the ethanol G.Bush.
Thanks for the engineering Acerbis.
Thanks for the customer satisfaction Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 27, 2011, 03:24:17 PM
Ethanol has been around since the early 1990s


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on May 27, 2011, 06:38:37 PM
^^^^^^
California Cycleworks Track Tank for Ducati Monster S2R
SKU:MTT43.S2RPrice:$469.00 Fitment
Ducati Monster S2R 1000, 800 Monster 695 (2007-2008), 620 (2005-2006)

Buy it and be done. Lifetime guarantee.
According to their site, that tank is a PEX (cross-linked polyethylene) plastic that is molded in color and the surface is unpaintable. Not really suitable for a street bike, IMO.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on May 27, 2011, 07:08:07 PM
According to their site, that tank is a PEX (cross-linked polyethylene) plastic that is molded in color and the surface is unpaintable. Not really suitable for a street bike, IMO.
Possibly, but what is the alternative if Ducati ceases to replace the stock tanks? Purchase another funky stock Duc tank for $2,000.00?  Black should go fine with my black & silver S2R.  8) 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on May 28, 2011, 03:09:35 AM
According to their site, that tank is a PEX (cross-linked polyethylene) plastic that is molded in color and the surface is unpaintable. Not really suitable for a street bike, IMO.
+1
And the shape is just plain ugly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 28, 2011, 03:26:17 AM
Its a high capacity tank.  The paint issue exists with all PEX tanks which is why later PEX tanks from Ducati have panels.  I've heard very good things about Chris's tanks but they are not for everyone.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on May 28, 2011, 03:37:31 AM
Ethanol has been around since the early 1990s

It's been around even longer, but it was insignificant in North America until the legislation of the last few years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on May 28, 2011, 05:39:46 AM
Possibly, but what is the alternative if Ducati ceases to replace the stock tanks? Purchase another funky stock Duc tank for $2,000.00?  Black should go fine with my black & silver S2R.  8) 
My bike is red/white, so I don't have as much leeway, unfortunately. The alternative is the word starts to get out about the crappy way DNA is handling this and dealers are stuck with floorplans of new bikes that won't sell. My dealer had a couple 1098/1198's waiting for tanks because they swelled while they were off for service and can't be reinstalled. We all know we aren't just dealing with a few models/bikes. It's going to be ALL of them at some point. I don't think DNA really grasps what a huge deal this is! Personally I've already started my search backwards into the metal tanks. (916-998 ;))


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on May 28, 2011, 06:34:11 AM
Seems like anyone dealing with this issue is stuck in a no-win situation. There are no attractive or affordable alternatives to the stock replacement tank once it deforms again.

I agree that Ducati is in over it's head on this one. Clearly it doesn't understand the fundamental concept of brand loyalty. If they did, the owners would be taken care of far better with a more permanent solution. I am the original owner of my S2R, and feel that Ducati is merely going through the motions until they use up all available tanks in their inventory.

Since I'm familiar with the domestic auto industry, this situation looks all too similar to GMs treatment of their customers in the 1980s and 1990s. How did that affect GMs market share and position in the auto industry?  If you F an owner of your car, why would they come back for a new car?  How long did it take GM to prove their cars are worth considering?  Are they even considered now?

My point is that Ducati is far far smaller, and has more to lose by bobbling this gas tank issue. Fighting the lawsuit shows a bit of arrogance and not disclosing the situation to the bikes owners (via letter, etc), is flat out negligent in FMVSS and NHTSA standards.

In the coming months I would be interested to see the correllation of this relative to change in return buyers, Ducati market share and profitability. Can you see another bankruptcy?  It's not out of the question, IMHO especially since the NA market is where Ducati has been trying to gain customers and mkt share. How are they leveraged in that region?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on May 28, 2011, 08:10:38 AM
According to their site, that tank is a PEX (cross-linked polyethylene) plastic that is molded in color and the surface is unpaintable. Not really suitable for a street bike, IMO.

And they don't offer a tank for an '07 S4RS (nor does anyone else that I can tell).

In my future I see either getting rid of my Monster, or popping big coin for a custom hand formed aluminum tank made by some artisan.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mike_D on May 28, 2011, 08:37:12 AM
I have an 08 S2R1K and have not had any expansion issues until recently.  In addition to a couple of small pimples on the tank itself, the right side rubber tank rest is nearly pushed off the frame.  The left side is fine, and there is still plenty of clearance for the tank latch.

Should I wait until the expansion becomes more pronounced or take it to the dealer now?  I love my monster, but this whole issue suxx--why doesn't DNA just issue a full recall and do the right thing? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jwoconnor on May 28, 2011, 09:16:13 AM
I have an 08 S2R1K and have not had any expansion issues until recently.  In addition to a couple of small pimples on the tank itself, the right side rubber tank rest is nearly pushed off the frame.  The left side is fine, and there is still plenty of clearance for the tank latch.

Should I wait until the expansion becomes more pronounced or take it to the dealer now?  I love my monster, but this whole issue suxx--why doesn't DNA just issue a full recall and do the right thing? 

 I'm starting to see similar issues, mostly cosmetic at the moment though the top triple now contacts the tank on both sides before the lock.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on May 28, 2011, 11:34:29 AM
I'm starting to see similar issues, mostly cosmetic at the moment though the top triple now contacts the tank on both sides before the lock.
To me, that is a safety issue. But unfortunately as long as they are not leaking Ducati will continue to to tell it's loyal customers, "Hey it's just cosmetic and while you're at it spread your legs a bit more so we can get a good kick square at your nuts!"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: patrick696 on May 28, 2011, 12:57:13 PM
It is very irritating that Ducati does not formally acknowledge such a widespread problem...
I do notice that like most companies they are pushing into the social space with a Ducati NA Facebook page and that Ducati NA Kontain social network page. I wonder what could happen if those sites were to become flooded with very public demands from their "followers" for answers on this issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rockaduc on May 28, 2011, 01:06:19 PM
Just had pics taken of my tank for a second replacement.  The first one displaying swelling across the width and rippling on the sides near the seat.  This one has swollen length-wise so now it is impossible to undo the latch to raise the tank.   [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Airborne on May 31, 2011, 04:09:27 AM
Just had pics taken of my tank for a second replacement.  The first one displaying swelling across the width and rippling on the sides near the seat.  This one has swollen length-wise so now it is impossible to undo the latch to raise the tank.   [thumbsdown]

Are you local to nymmc? just wondering which dealer you are going through to get your new tank. My problem is not so much cosemtic, yes its slightly blown out, but more importantly i cannot unlatch my tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on May 31, 2011, 04:43:02 AM
Just had pics taken of my tank for a second replacement.  The first one displaying swelling across the width and rippling on the sides near the seat.  This one has swollen length-wise so now it is impossible to undo the latch to raise the tank.   [thumbsdown]

same here. mine has reached the point where to unlatch it, i have to break out the 10mm socket and completely remove the ignition key cover.
CA-Cycleworks track tank is in my near future.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on May 31, 2011, 05:54:36 AM
if you think about it, ducati is doing everything right.

they get new customers and dont' tell them about this issue they will find out in time but by then its too late they already have their 15-20k for a new bike.

if that person doesn't buy a new bike again so be it, no worries, they got the money alreayd thye always have to get new sales not repeat so much.

then there are the ones that already have the bikes, well again it doesn't matter bc most of you that complain will either keep the ducati or buy another one bc of the social status, looks, or that you can't find something else that will exactly match the ducati so you are stuck.  the fact that you have a deformed tank that has been replaced 2 times and now you are still posting on a ducati forum board and such, shows that you won't leave the brand, heck the very nature of this site promotes brand loyalty and dna has nothing to do with it, we are marketing ducati even better than they could.

as long as ducati still can spin this as cosmetic and nobody is injured they never have to admit anything is wrong at all, and the new buyers will come back, but once they have to do a recall of the last 7 years of tanks for safety reasons and its in consumer reports or such then they will lose market share for putting out shoddy bikes, right now as long as this never really goes "public" like that, new owners or prosepective ones will not be the wiser at all.

don't you just love "small" corporations?   [clap]  they are identical to the large ones, you really don't matter as long as they convince you to give them money you are the onese that lose, everytime.except they promoete the whole "small" aspecte really nicely.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on May 31, 2011, 07:19:27 AM
It seems DNA is making it tough for the dealers to replace our tanks.  I emailed my dealer to see if I could get the old tank back for the hell of it and this is his reply.

>> Unfortunately Ducati had changed the procedure for goodwill tank warranties. We used to have to sit on the defective part for 90 days, then make the part unusable before disposal. Starting with your tank, Ducati has made the process kind difficult. In order for us to receive credit, the defective tanks are sent back to California. Once they under go a complete inspection, we then can receive our credit. We have upwards of about $15,000.00 hanging in the wind over this issue. For the month of June, I'm not submitting requests for tank replacements. <<

I would think they cannot keep replacing tanks indefinitely so if you are working on it you had better double time. If a dealer says he can't help you, I would try another even if the distance is rediculious it would still be worth a new tank
and maybe a road trip.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducmon695 on May 31, 2011, 10:34:00 AM
I am in the process of having my tank replaced as well.  I have an 07 695.  I took it to my local dealer and they took pictures of it, and said they will probably replace it because it is a safety issue because I am not able to latch the tank. 

But I am thinking, why don't we all go on Ducati's facebook page and start asking questions, or posting complaints.  We setup a day and everyone put on the Facebook page that we have had our tank replaced, and we want a permanent solution?  Flood the page.

Or is there anyway that we can right a formal letter to Ducati and all of us that have had a tank replaced put our name on it? 

Has there been an update to the lawsuit, besides Ducati pushing back?  Is there a place I can go and get updates to what is going on?

It is just something to consider.

I too love my bike, I love Ducati, I tell anyone I can to go out and buy one.  I am involved in my local club and try to organize events for fellow Ducati riders to get together and enjoy there passion.  But not, I don't tell anyone to go buy one, I feel this is a big issue that needs to be resolved, not just pushed away.
It is just sad that the passion for this brand by owners, builders, employees of this brand to be over shadowed by corporate lawyers.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 31, 2011, 11:00:10 AM

I am fairly new to the Ducati family but have done a fair amount of research on the tank issue a spoken with mechanics familiar with the issue. 

It's a bigger issue than DNA from what I have been told so I'm not sure posting messages on Facebook will help the situation much.  From what I understand Ducati didn't want to put nylon tanks on bikes to only replace them free of charge every 2 years or so.  One tank MSRP's for about 1500.00, no company no matter how poor/wealthy wants to go around replacing tanks free of charge as well as running the risk of creating a community of unhappy customers.  The real issue as I have come to understand is with the Department of Transportation.  DOT mandated nylon tanks despite the tanks everywhere else being made of polyethylene. 

I could totally be wrong but thats what I hear is the root cause. 


This is false.  DOT does not mandate any sort of material for fuel tanks.  It (thru NHTSA) mandates safety minimums and EPA mandates emissions maximums.  A tank can be made of any material that passes those tests (NHTSA crash and EPA SHED tests).

The MSRP of the tank is irrelevant.  In quantity, rotomolding a tank like these runs about 50-100$ per tank plus the cost of finishing them (paint,decals) which (again, in quantity) runs under $100-200 each.

More likely, the cost of these tanks is being absorbed by Acerbis in whole or part.   The main issue they are worried about is the unhappy customer issue and despite many opinions on the matter, it does not mean that EACH and EVERY person needs to be happy.  It really means that if they had 30,000 happy customers yesterday, they want >30,000 happy customers tomorrow.  It doesn't matter if they are all different customers. 

That being said, in my conversations with the DNA folks I felt they were sincerely concerned about the issue both form a customer standpoint and from a materials standpoint. 

However, everyone needs to remember that Ducati is a company with only about 1100 people worldwide.  At the end of the day, making a custom run of metal tanks just for the bikes affected would likely bankrupt the company.

That being said, I believe they will eventually have a solution.  I don't know what it will be.  It's possible they are trying to burn up the stock of old (bad material) tanks and will roll out good material tanks later.

Thus far, there are NO tanks with new materials on the road.  Dealers who claim there is a "new formulation" are misinformed.  The proof of this is to look under the tank and find the "recycle" triangle logo.  If it has the same letters, the tank is still PA6 nylon.   Secondly, check the production date of the tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on May 31, 2011, 11:23:10 AM
It's been a little while since I've checked in on this thread.
Good to hear there's at least some speculation DNA might fix this eventually.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rockaduc on May 31, 2011, 11:34:08 AM
Are you local to nymmc? just wondering which dealer you are going through to get your new tank. My problem is not so much cosemtic, yes its slightly blown out, but more importantly i cannot unlatch my tank.
I go to Trebour in ledgewood, nj. Good people


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on May 31, 2011, 01:26:47 PM
There is some movement towards E10 in Europe - nobody knows if or when.

If that happens, the Euro ducatisti, especially the Italians, will without hesitation burn down the Bologna headquarters if they experience the same problems without Ducati fixing it PRONTO.

Don't know if it will help you US guys, but I'm sure that Ducati doesn't want their home continent on their backs as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mike_D on May 31, 2011, 02:27:54 PM
I took my bike into the local dealer over the weekend and told the owner that I was beginning to see expansion problems.  As I mentioned earlier, it's not bad yet, just a couple of pimples and it's pushing the right tank rest off the frame.  He immediately took pictures and submitted the claim.  I even asked him if we should wait until the problem becomes more pronounced and he said no, we'll just send it in.  If all goes well, I should have my tank in about a month.  I'm a little worried though that DNA will refuse to replace it because it doesn't meet some severity threshold.  If a new tank does come in, I'll likely hold off on installing it until my original tank shows more severe signs of expansion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on May 31, 2011, 03:02:06 PM
I took my bike into the local dealer over the weekend and told the owner that I was beginning to see expansion problems.  As I mentioned earlier, it's not bad yet, just a couple of pimples and it's pushing the right tank rest off the frame.  He immediately took pictures and submitted the claim.  I even asked him if we should wait until the problem becomes more pronounced and he said no, we'll just send it in.  If all goes well, I should have my tank in about a month.  I'm a little worried though that DNA will refuse to replace it because it doesn't meet some severity threshold.  If a new tank does come in, I'll likely hold off on installing it until my original tank shows more severe signs of expansion.

They are going to take your tank so I don't think you be able to hold off on it.....................


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on May 31, 2011, 06:35:05 PM
This is false.  DOT does not mandate any sort of material for fuel tanks.  It (thru NHTSA) mandates safety minimums and EPA mandates emissions maximums.  A tank can be made of any material that passes those tests (NHTSA crash and EPA SHED tests).

The MSRP of the tank is irrelevant.  In quantity, rotomolding a tank like these runs about 50-100$ per tank plus the cost of finishing them (paint,decals) which (again, in quantity) runs under $100-200 each.

More likely, the cost of these tanks is being absorbed by Acerbis in whole or part.   The main issue they are worried about is the unhappy customer issue and despite many opinions on the matter, it does not mean that EACH and EVERY person needs to be happy.  It really means that if they had 30,000 happy customers yesterday, they want >30,000 happy customers tomorrow.  It doesn't matter if they are all different customers. 

That being said, in my conversations with the DNA folks I felt they were sincerely concerned about the issue both form a customer standpoint and from a materials standpoint. 

However, everyone needs to remember that Ducati is a company with only about 1100 people worldwide.  At the end of the day, making a custom run of metal tanks just for the bikes affected would likely bankrupt the company.

That being said, I believe they will eventually have a solution.  I don't know what it will be.  It's possible they are trying to burn up the stock of old (bad material) tanks and will roll out good material tanks later.

Thus far, there are NO tanks with new materials on the road.  Dealers who claim there is a "new formulation" are misinformed.  The proof of this is to look under the tank and find the "recycle" triangle logo.  If it has the same letters, the tank is still PA6 nylon.   Secondly, check the production date of the tank.

So what are your thoughts on DNA's apparent sudden resistence to no-question-asked replacement? I would think Acerbis still has the molds, so a new material would just need to be settled on for a completely new run of tanks. I just can't seem to grasp DNA's seemingly carefree attitude. That may not be their actual feeling but it's the perception that THEY are putting out there with their actions.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on May 31, 2011, 07:10:18 PM
I like the idea of hitting them on facebook at one time  [thumbsup]
My old S2R is now on her third tank.  They want publicity?  Lets give it to them.  [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on June 01, 2011, 03:49:06 AM
This is false.  DOT does not mandate any sort of material for fuel tanks.  It (thru NHTSA) mandates safety minimums and EPA mandates emissions maximums.  A tank can be made of any material that passes those tests (NHTSA crash and EPA SHED tests).

The MSRP of the tank is irrelevant.  In quantity, rotomolding a tank like these runs about 50-100$ per tank plus the cost of finishing them (paint,decals) which (again, in quantity) runs under $100-200 each.

More likely, the cost of these tanks is being absorbed by Acerbis in whole or part.   The main issue they are worried about is the unhappy customer issue and despite many opinions on the matter, it does not mean that EACH and EVERY person needs to be happy.  It really means that if they had 30,000 happy customers yesterday, they want >30,000 happy customers tomorrow.  It doesn't matter if they are all different customers. 

That being said, in my conversations with the DNA folks I felt they were sincerely concerned about the issue both form a customer standpoint and from a materials standpoint. 

However, everyone needs to remember that Ducati is a company with only about 1100 people worldwide.  At the end of the day, making a custom run of metal tanks just for the bikes affected would likely bankrupt the company.

That being said, I believe they will eventually have a solution.  I don't know what it will be.  It's possible they are trying to burn up the stock of old (bad material) tanks and will roll out good material tanks later.

Thus far, there are NO tanks with new materials on the road.  Dealers who claim there is a "new formulation" are misinformed.  The proof of this is to look under the tank and find the "recycle" triangle logo.  If it has the same letters, the tank is still PA6 nylon.   Secondly, check the production date of the tank.

During your discussions with Ducati has the idea of Caswell or similar coating of the tank at the factory level come up? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 01, 2011, 04:03:46 AM
During your discussions with Ducati has the idea of Caswell or similar coating of the tank at the factory level come up? 

Yes, that is the preferred solution.  Caswell worked but did not meet homologation requirements, I wasn't given specifics.  It is possible another coating would meet specifications, but I don't have any information on that now. 

Coating is preferred for a lot of reasons, which I am sure you can list. 

So what are your thoughts on DNA's apparent sudden resistence to no-question-asked replacement? I would think Acerbis still has the molds, so a new material would just need to be settled on for a completely new run of tanks. I just can't seem to grasp DNA's seemingly carefree attitude. That may not be their actual feeling but it's the perception that THEY are putting out there with their actions.

I haven't heard of a nation-wide change.  My feeling is that this is the dealers getting tired of doing the work.  Ducati repays them for the labor and dealers who have done a LOT of them have claimed to get paid slowly. 

If DNA has indeed slowed the process it might be due to the increased number of claims (which means the pipeline is clogged) or perhaps an interest in more scrutiny on the tanks trying to prevent fraud.   Either way, it's a legitimate concern on their part.

Take anything a dealer tells you with a grain of salt.  If one dealer says they are slowing down things, but 10 other dealers report no change.....  [roll] Ever since this saga began, I have been collecting snippets of comments from dealers and I've forwarded some to DNA.  Did you hear the one about the dealer that required owners to make a deposit for the tank in case the replacement wasn't approved and then made the owner leave the bike at the shop until the tank came in?  Yep.  It happened.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GLantern on June 01, 2011, 10:58:11 AM
I just found my 08 1098 has an expanding tank and it is really bad, it is pressing against the mount for the steering damper.  The bike is out of warranty but should still be able to get a replacement tank correct?  Just want to clarify as I am going to call my dealer today.  Here are some pics the gap should be a LOT larger than that.

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/GreenLanternLCD/IMAG0153.jpg)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/GreenLanternLCD/IMAG0154.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 01, 2011, 11:33:00 AM
Go ahead and make the claim.  There is no reason they'll deny it at this point.  If it was my bike, I'd wait to see if it leaks as well.  The plaintiff in the lawsuit has a 1098.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on June 01, 2011, 12:31:52 PM
When I had my tank changed out I believe the dealer said the tank issue has to do with emissions.  Went on to say the warranty on emissions is longer then the normal warranty.

Not sure if that is true or not but I got my tank replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GLantern on June 01, 2011, 01:18:53 PM
Go ahead and make the claim.  There is no reason they'll deny it at this point.  If it was my bike, I'd wait to see if it leaks as well.  The plaintiff in the lawsuit has a 1098.

Thanks for the info.  Figured I would actually wait since it isnt leaking or harming anything and do it when it gets cold again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on June 03, 2011, 05:23:34 PM
Just went in today to have the tank looked at.  The latch wasn't working and I noticed the tank was off the frame on the right side by about half an inch.  I think mine only lasted this long because of the tank cover.  It's a 2007 Black S2R800 which I bought December 2006.  The service department at the dealer took a look at it then had me remove the cover, take some pictures, and fill out some paperwork.  They will call me when it comes in.  I'll let you guys know how long it takes to get it replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: calscrazy on June 03, 2011, 06:33:54 PM
i was in an accident and my 695 was totalled. i was going to look at an 05 s2r but before i do i have two questions.

1) do they have plastic tanks?
2) how far back will ducati replace them? is it five years and screw you? if so i feel a new yamaha coming on!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on June 03, 2011, 06:57:22 PM
look for an 06 or older S4 of M900, they have metal tanks. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on June 03, 2011, 11:38:28 PM
Just went in today to have the tank looked at.  The latch wasn't working and I noticed the tank was off the frame on the right side by about half an inch.  I think mine only lasted this long because of the tank cover.  It's a 2007 Black S2R800 which I bought December 2006.  The service department at the dealer took a look at it then had me remove the cover, take some pictures, and fill out some paperwork.  They will call me when it comes in.  I'll let you guys know how long it takes to get it replaced.
Which dealer?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on June 04, 2011, 12:48:24 PM
Which dealer?

Good Times Motorsports on Auburn.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WhiteStripe on June 08, 2011, 07:57:28 AM
My tank has been expanding, but until now has been annoying, but not cosmetic.  This morning i walked into the garage to see two large deformations/bumps.  So bummed out.

Getting to a dealer is going to be a major PITA for me.

I am based in the Waltham, MA area.

Any suggestions on the nearest / most helpful dealer to contact to get in line?

Thanks.
Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Tekneek on June 09, 2011, 06:08:03 AM
 My '06 S2R800 fell victim to the dreaded expansion issue. I finally got around to getting my tank replaced under warranty last fall right before the bike went into storage. It was a no hassle process with my local shop up here in northeast Ohio. I drained the gas after getting it home and let the bike sit over the winter. Rode it for the month of May but have since removed my new warrantied Ducati tank and have replaced it with a CA Cycleworks track tank which I will soon post some photos/feedback on. Hopefully no more worrying about this crap for me and I have the new, mint Duc tank in case I ever decide to sell my baby (or the tank).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 09, 2011, 09:16:27 AM
I'm also planning to purchase the CA Cycleworks tank for my S2R when my tank (now the 2nd) gets pregnant. I'm curious to know how you like the Cycleworks tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 09, 2011, 02:13:42 PM
I'm thinking ETI fuel cell for mine...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 09, 2011, 03:08:08 PM
My tank has been expanding, but until now has been annoying, but not cosmetic.  This morning i walked into the garage to see two large deformations/bumps.  So bummed out.

Getting to a dealer is going to be a major PITA for me.

I am based in the Waltham, MA area.

Any suggestions on the nearest / most helpful dealer to contact to get in line?

Thanks.
Tim
Nearest is probably Riverside.

Don't know if they'll be helpful or not.

There is always Cycles 128...they took the Eastern Cycles franchise.

Don't know if they'll be helpful either.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 09, 2011, 03:31:04 PM
I'm thinking ETI fuel cell for mine...
I haven't heard of ETI fuel cells. Where can I find info.?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 09, 2011, 03:34:52 PM
I haven't heard of ETI fuel cells. Where can I find info.?

http://www.eti-fuelcel.com/index.html (http://www.eti-fuelcel.com/index.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on June 09, 2011, 05:50:44 PM
101 page thread on what is likely the single most active ducati web community, and still there is no issue? pff.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 09, 2011, 08:59:06 PM
http://www.eti-fuelcel.com/index.html (http://www.eti-fuelcel.com/index.html)
Thanks, I'll check it out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on June 10, 2011, 04:51:39 AM
Thanks, I'll check it out.

the problem with the ETI cels is that they are for carbed monsters... which came with steel tanks...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 10, 2011, 09:38:33 AM
the problem with the ETI cels is that they are for carbed monsters... which came with steel tanks...
John has made tanks for the injected monsters also.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 10, 2011, 10:29:06 AM
I have this problem here in the UK. I'm currently in contact with Ducati and my Dealer so lets see what happens...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on June 10, 2011, 10:58:10 AM
John has made tanks for the injected monsters also.

fair enough!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 10, 2011, 11:49:14 AM
the problem with the ETI cels is that they are for carbed monsters... which came with steel tanks...

I don't have that problem, as mine is a Sport1000.   :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on June 10, 2011, 03:47:08 PM
Just got the word that tank #2 was approved and it is in!  [clap]
Going tomorrow to get it installed. I'm still undecided how I'm going to proceed. The svc dept swears by Startron, saying they use it in all of their bikes and it seems to have slowed the swelling to a standstill. Do I want to run this in the tank and cross my fingers hoping DNA will do the right thing eventually? Or just get out from under this anvil and get a 996 and wait for the chrome to flake off of the POS rocker arms? ;D <sigh>


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 10, 2011, 04:23:59 PM
I'm still waiting on thank #2  :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on June 10, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
Just got the word that tank #2 was approved and it is in!  [clap]
Going tomorrow to get it installed. I'm still undecided how I'm going to proceed. The svc dept swears by Startron, saying they use it in all of their bikes and it seems to have slowed the swelling to a standstill. Do I want to run this in the tank and cross my fingers hoping DNA will do the right thing eventually? Or just get out from under this anvil and get a 996 and wait for the chrome to flake off of the POS rocker arms? ;D <sigh>

caswell it... it's been pretty much a proven fix, and i believe even DNA has tested it as working.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on June 11, 2011, 06:11:34 PM
caswell it... it's been pretty much a proven fix, and i believe even DNA has tested it as working.
Was going to, but the svc mgr said he is seeing and also getting word from other dealers of instances where the coating is starting to peel and flake at the filler neck. I decided against opening a whole new can o'worms and give the Startron a shot. From what I have read, it appears to completely neutralize the ethanol/water separation which is our whole problem to begin with.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 11, 2011, 06:54:51 PM
Was going to, but the svc mgr said he is seeing and also getting word from other dealers of instances where the coating is starting to peel and flake at the filler neck. I decided against opening a whole new can o'worms and give the Startron a shot. From what I have read, it appears to completely neutralize the ethanol/water separation which is our whole problem to begin with.

I wish these guys would document it if they see it.  I haven't heard nor seen any such thing.  The guys on the multistrada board have been doing it for over 3 years now and none of them have had a single issue with it.  Moreover, nor has Caswell's had any reports of it or discussion of it on their online forum.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on June 12, 2011, 04:28:46 AM
I wish these guys would document it if they see it.  I haven't heard nor seen any such thing.  The guys on the multistrada board have been doing it for over 3 years now and none of them have had a single issue with it.  Moreover, nor has Caswell's had any reports of it or discussion of it on their online forum.
I know. And they still coat tanks anyway. I could have had mine done. This has been going on for so long, I have learned to take just about everything I hear with a grain of salt. However, if it was ever going to flake and peel, it would most likely start at the edge, ie: the filler neck. This is in NO way a knock on Caswell. I'm sure it is 100% effective against our issue!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 12, 2011, 04:40:00 AM
One thought though:  since there is a deck at the filler that prevents one from seeing into the tank directly how have they observed said peeling?  Sounds like utter bullshit to me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Narflar on June 12, 2011, 08:39:15 AM
How does the coating hold up in a crash?  The plastic tanks will generally pop back into place but with a hard epoxy coating I imagine that would crack and flake off inside the tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 12, 2011, 10:29:33 AM
That's the 64,000$ question.  It is flexible once dried but I doubt it is as flexible as the nylon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on June 13, 2011, 09:12:06 AM
I had my 3rd tank coated with Casswell and I haven't looked back since.  Someone on ducati.ms made a comparison between people replacing their clutch slave and not blinking an eye but yet raising up hell on coating the tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 13, 2011, 09:15:59 AM
I had my 3rd tank coated with Casswell and I haven't looked back since.  Someone on ducati.ms made a comparison between people replacing their clutch slave and not blinking an eye but yet raising up hell on coating the tank.

it's very different.  clutch slave failures are rare.  i don't know anyone personally of those people who ride ducati who have had a clutch slave failure, but out of 8 people i know (personally, in real life) who ride ducati, 7 of them have had a blown tank on a monster, sc, multia or sbk. 

moreover, you should never have to replace your tank unless you crash.  it's not a wear item.  rebuilding the clutch slave is -- i mean, the parts are wear items.  most people have simply replaced the piston with an upgraded type and that's it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on June 13, 2011, 09:51:22 PM
I think what the poster was trying to say is that people change/modify their bikes to all the time.  New clutch slave for easier pull, new PP, new clutch cover, different levers for small hands, etc.  The tank coating was just another "mod" if you will to keep your bike looking the way you want it to look.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on June 14, 2011, 10:06:08 AM
I think what the poster was trying to say is that people change/modify their bikes to all the time.  New clutch slave for easier pull, new PP, new clutch cover, different levers for small hands, etc.  The tank coating was just another "mod" if you will to keep your bike looking the way you want it to look.


I disagree.  Mods tend to improve or enhance the performance of the bike.  Clutch slaves (lever modulation and effort), exhausts (response and accelleration). 

Coating a tank is not a 'mod'.  It's getting the tank back to where it should have been in the first place (holding petrol and not deforming).  Why should I have to F with it and get it essentially back to 'stock'?  I have better things to spend both my time and money on.

Saying tank coating is a 'mod' is like saying a straight frame is a 'mod'. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on June 14, 2011, 10:12:57 AM
I agree and disagree. Changing the mirrors does not improve the performance, just the looks. Now, having to spend money on a coating is still not a "mod".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 14, 2011, 10:13:43 AM
Changing the mirrors is optional, uprating performance is optional.  Fixing a bad tank is not optional.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on June 14, 2011, 10:15:32 AM
Changing the mirrors is optional, uprating performance is optional.  Fixing a bad tank is not optional.

+1


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on June 14, 2011, 10:51:51 AM
LOL - some of you need to go out for a ride! Or you can just go into the garage and be angry at your deforming tank that DNA is "working" to fix.

Life is too short to get angry over such nuances.  I said f-it and moved on.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 14, 2011, 10:56:49 AM
LOL - some of you need to go out for a ride! Or you can just go into the garage and be angry at your deforming tank that DNA is "working" to fix.

Life is too short to get angry over such nuances.  I said f-it and moved on.

no you didn't.  you said something else and posted here a bunch of times.

the point is, if you want to say make the beast with two backs it, that's your choice, and that's fine.  but you're pretty much alone in thinking this is a small issue -- some people would like to keep their bikes for a long time (I still have my 2nd bike I bought in 1987, the 4th bike I bought in 1989, as well as some others...).  I like my little monster, I'd like to know that 10 years from now I don't have to worry about the tank expanding.  Rust, I can deal with, metal tanks can be weld and coated, but Nylon cannot be repaired.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on June 14, 2011, 11:13:54 AM
I'm confused.  I didn't move on because I checked in on this post and replied to some of the comment that were made?

How many post do I have on this thread since it was created back in June 2009?

I also like my bike dude, that's why I had it coated! So that in 10..heck 2 years I don't have to worry about my tank expanding.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 14, 2011, 11:18:48 AM
I understand your POV, I am saying that many people are still trying to grasp why Ducati would put a defective tank on their bikes and why they are not doing something more final -- something that solves the issue once and for all.

And there is somewhat of a sting when one has to do remedial work on what is essentially an unmodified part of the bike -- just like hillbilly said above, it's like buying a new bike and then having to get the frame straightened (although not as expensive...)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on June 14, 2011, 01:12:05 PM
LOL - some of you need to go out for a ride! Or you can just go into the garage and be angry at your deforming tank that DNA is "working" to fix.

Life is too short to get angry over such nuances.  I said f-it and moved on.

Ducati is 'working' to fix this issue?  That's news to me.  They are replacing tanks with the same polymer (and in my case the replacement tank looked like @ss).  Tell me how that's 'working' and not just going through the motions.

'Working' is getting off your @ss, actively communicating with your end customer (us) via email, mail or posting on the Internet, then running a new set of tanks that won't be affected by ethanol and getting them on to the bikes with as little headache for the owners.

It's also not fighting a lawsuit that essentially points out your shortsightedness and negligence.

To date I have learned about the issue via internet (not through direct communication channels from Ducati as is normal for safety related problems in the transportation industry) and had a replacement tank that makes it feel like I was being given the finger by the Company.  It looks like it was painted with a roller in some areas and hand finished with Scotch Brite on lower surfaces.  It has a dip near the filler neck from mismatched tooling when it was made.  Nice.  Now I remember why I really really wanted a Ducati. . . .

http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/15464222_AqnAd#1157792808_jErNW (http://sonar.smugmug.com/Other/S2R-tank-replacement/15464222_AqnAd#1157792808_jErNW)

So, like Ducatiz above, I got a new S2R 1000, which I planned on having for a number of years (I also have an M900 thus I was adding to my 'collection'), and despite vigilant maintenance and dealer servicing this is the kind of service I get from the Company.  Oh did I also mention that when I picked up the tank from the dealer, some gasoline ran out of it and onto the counter top??

And I just 'deal with it'?  What color is the sky in your world?  This is getting the shaft from the company because our only other option is to have one made for us through a third party for over 2k.

Layer in the fact that I have a 9 month old son and you might be able to see that I have a lot more pressing things to do than screw with a gas tank.  When I get the time, I'd like to enjoy that 70 degree sunny day riding and not puttering around in the garage fixing what I didn't break.

Because after I get back from that ride, I'd like to spend some time with my son.

Oh, did I mention that I also have two BMWs?  Guess which bikes AREN'T giving me problems?

And guess which dealer I'll likely visit when it's time for that next bike?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: poseur on June 14, 2011, 08:32:00 PM
Oh, did I mention that I also have two BMWs?  Guess which bikes AREN'T giving me problems?

And guess which dealer I'll likely visit when it's time for that next bike?

Thank you for your post. Now let's hear from Ducati. If they don't do the right thing, they won't be getting another penny from me either. I know that adding ethanol to our fuel was more political than anything, but Ducati needs to show that they care about their customers and help get this all sorted out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on June 16, 2011, 08:05:35 AM
Actually the Caswell coating peeling inside the tank is not BS.
I had my 2nd tank replaced recently and while it was at the shop I had them coat it too.
When I went to pick it up I opened the gas cap and the coating was soft and peeling.
The service manager said that the coating had dried completly solid and surmised that the fuel has somewho interacted with the coating to soften it.
You can actually reach inside the tank and pull out small sections of the coating.
He said he would contact Caswell to see if they had experienced this problem before.
I'm still waiting to hear back from them as to what we should or can do next...

Jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on June 16, 2011, 10:32:13 AM
Actually the Caswell coating peeling inside the tank is not BS...You can actually reach inside the tank and pull out small sections of the coating.
He said he would contact Caswell to see if they had experienced this problem before.
I'm still waiting to hear back from them as to what we should or can do next...

Argh!...Please keep us posted...Do you know if the dealer washed the inside of the tank pre-coating with Caswell?  The OEM tanks supposedly use some kind of mold release oil.

Would suck to have wasted $$ on Caswell.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 16, 2011, 10:50:08 AM
Argh!...Please keep us posted...Do you know if the dealer washed the inside of the tank pre-coating with Caswell?  The OEM tanks supposedly use some kind of mold release oil.

Would suck to have wasted $$ on Caswell.
It doesn't make sense that there would be mold release inside...to me anyway.  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 16, 2011, 11:10:03 AM
Actually the Caswell coating peeling inside the tank is not BS.
I had my 2nd tank replaced recently and while it was at the shop I had them coat it too.
When I went to pick it up I opened the gas cap and the coating was soft and peeling.
The service manager said that the coating had dried completly solid and surmised that the fuel has somewho interacted with the coating to soften it.
You can actually reach inside the tank and pull out small sections of the coating.
He said he would contact Caswell to see if they had experienced this problem before.
I'm still waiting to hear back from them as to what we should or can do next...

Jimi

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_981a04dc.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/981a04dc.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_dcfc271d.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/dcfc271d.jpg)

Those photos are the tank filler.  Can you tell me where you saw the peeling? 

Argh!...Please keep us posted...Do you know if the dealer washed the inside of the tank pre-coating with Caswell?  The OEM tanks supposedly use some kind of mold release oil.

Would suck to have wasted $$ on Caswell.

Mold release agent would be where the PAINT is now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on June 16, 2011, 11:18:44 AM
Argh!...Please keep us posted...Do you know if the dealer washed the inside of the tank pre-coating with Caswell?  The OEM tanks supposedly use some kind of mold release oil.

Would suck to have wasted $$ on Caswell.

maybe it's an issue with how it was mixed?  caswell is pretty definite on exactly how much of each solution to mix together:

from their site:

"Mix up the required amount of Gas Tank Sealer (one unit should treat two small motorcycle tanks or one large one) If you are only treating ONE small tank, then divide parts A & B in half. You could use a dipstick to gauge this.

In a separate plastic container (margarine tub etc.) mix the two parts together thoroughly for at least 2 minutes. Scrape around the sides to ensure all resin is blended together. BAD MIXING AND BAD MEASURING IS THE #1 CAUSE OF FAILURE!!"

i'm sure that the dealer will say that he mixed it perfectly... but maybe this is a situation where he put in too much resin and not enough hardener?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on June 16, 2011, 01:15:02 PM
The tank is actually full now but once I get a chance I will take pictures of it and post them.
The peeling is very clearly visable inside the tank as soon as you open the filler cap.
I'm even considering pelling off the coating that's not adhering just to prevent problems later down the road.

As far as mixing it right, this deealer has done a few tanks before with no previous problems.

I'm besitant to speculate why it happened, I'm just bummed/ annoyed that now I have a brand new tank that I paid to hav coated and I'm not sure that the problem won't happen again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 16, 2011, 02:05:35 PM
The tank is actually full now but once I get a chance I will take pictures of it and post them.
The peeling is very clearly visable inside the tank as soon as you open the filler cap.
I'm even considering pelling off the coating that's not adhering just to prevent problems later down the road.

As far as mixing it right, this deealer has done a few tanks before with no previous problems.

I'm besitant to speculate why it happened, I'm just bummed/ annoyed that now I have a brand new tank that I paid to hav coated and I'm not sure that the problem won't happen again.

Using the photos I posted, where is the peeling?

You're the first person I've heard of that has had problems and I've been tracking this issue for a long time now -- 2+ years?  My first guess is that someone screwed up the mix, perhaps did not let it set long enough or keep the tank moving during cure.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on June 17, 2011, 04:53:45 AM
I can say with certainty that when properly mixed, the Caswells coating is HARD and sticks to just about anything. I still have drips of of the stuff stuck to my garage floor. My guess is that either the dealer failed to properly mix the coating or perhaps filled the tank with gasoline without allowing enough time for curing.   [bang] [bang]

If you can peel off the coating then it simply wasn't mixed or installed correctly.

what a bummer...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 17, 2011, 12:00:23 PM
My second tank claim has been denied. The reason that I crashed. I did highside at the track but that happened after I had already made the claim. DNA now according to my dealer will not replace the tank.   I'm going to call customer service and let them have it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: iRam on June 17, 2011, 12:21:57 PM
Let em have it!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 17, 2011, 01:36:41 PM
My second tank claim has been denied. The reason that I crashed. I did highside at the track but that happened after I had already made the claim. DNA now according to my dealer will not replace the tank.   I'm going to call customer service and let them have it.
Better yet, file a claim in small claims court. The limit in CA is $5,000.00, and I think it costs less than $30.00 to file.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on June 17, 2011, 01:57:15 PM
Ok here are the pictures of the Caswell coating in my tank.
The coating has turned a yellowish color and is peeling off the inner surface.
Is this happening to anyone else and is there anything that can be done at this point to repair or remove and recoat it?
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Uwwa4R-36g8/TftYJG061PI/AAAAAAAAAFg/IxWKSvJMd1M/s400/IMG_20110616_182022.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bcaC3zgXZvo/TftYkKz9blI/AAAAAAAAAFk/3k4w8kQoqcA/s400/IMG_20110616_182011.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WzKanCQtppg/TftY3CEDPjI/AAAAAAAAAFo/gOTongiejN0/s400/IMG_20110616_182011.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7gkNRh33vrk/TftZGFd97yI/AAAAAAAAAFs/4RJn5H_touM/s400/IMG_20110616_181952.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on June 17, 2011, 03:06:09 PM
Better yet, file a claim in small claims court. The limit in CA is $5,000.00, and I think it costs less than $30.00 to file.

If he's gonna file an insurance claim for the crash, why bother?

Is he gonna file an insurance claim?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 17, 2011, 04:34:10 PM
^^^^^ Good point! I don't have collision coverage on my bike.  :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2011, 04:47:37 PM
Ok here are the pictures of the Caswell coating in my tank.
The coating has turned a yellowish color and is peeling off the inner surface.
Is this happening to anyone else and is there anything that can be done at this point to repair or remove and recoat it?

It either was applied to a dirty tank or it was not cured correctly.  I thought you meant around the filler neck.  That spot is as flat as that tank gets. 

My gut feeling tells me they thinned it too much to make it easier to apply and it simply did not cure enough with all the MEK or whatever htey used.

Not easy to pick it out.  Call Caswell and ask them.  I imagine you can recoat over the peeling stuff and it will seal that in too.  I also have a few drops of caswell on my garage floor and it is like dental enamel.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ConnorD on June 18, 2011, 06:11:45 PM
So I went into Ducati Seattle a few days ago to get the pictures of my tank taken for a claim. The tech I talked to told me some interesting things that may or may not be new information. According to him, the swelling reverses if the ethanol and gas are drained and the tank left to air. Apparently Ducati was initially confused as the the tanks sent to them for inspection weren't deformed at all, as they had been left to air for a few weeks prior to shipping and shrunk back down. He also said he had seen this happen himself to the tanks in the shop that had been removed due to swelling. I'm not sure what significance this has to the problem at large, but maybe folks who've been denied a new tank have some hope...

As an aside, the poor finish on hillbillypolack's tank has me worried. Can you guys who have received new tanks chime in on how they compared to the original tank's finish?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on June 18, 2011, 06:17:34 PM
My bike is on its third tank.  The fit and finish has been fine on all three except the first tank (the one on the bike when I bought it at the dealer) didn't have any clear coat.  When I was taking the sticker off the tank I used my fingernail to scrap some of the sticker glue off.  My fingernail dug up a small chunk of the white racing stripe decal.  The stripe on the tank I have now is definitely clear coated. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2011, 06:22:34 PM
So I went into Ducati Seattle a few days ago to get the pictures of my tank taken for a claim. The tech I talked to told me some interesting things that may or may not be new information. According to him, the swelling reverses if the ethanol and gas are drained and the tank left to air. Apparently Ducati was initially confused as the the tanks sent to them for inspection weren't deformed at all, as they had been left to air for a few weeks prior to shipping and shrunk back down. He also said he had seen this happen himself to the tanks in the shop that had been removed due to swelling. I'm not sure what significance this has to the problem at large, but maybe folks who've been denied a new tank have some hope...

this has been known for a while.  the problem is that the water penetrates the wall of the tank and can leave deposits of water trapped.   i had a tank cut open to examine the wall and we found small cavities of water -- it's not clear if the cavities were present previously or if the water expanded the material.

to complicate things, you have no idea if your tank is compromised once it shrinks.  if you have an expanded tank and it later shrinks and you coat it -- and there is water trapped in the wall, more than likely, the coating will release.

also, some folks have had actual moisture under the paint forming "mushy" pockets near the surface.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 22, 2011, 07:00:44 AM
I got this from Ducati UK:

Quote
Your Ducati Monster S2R is the first of its kind in which we have seen any deformation in the fuel tank. We do not consider this a manufacturing defect so will not replace under warranty however, we would like to offer a new replacement tank at a heavily subsidised price of £581.91 including VAT.  For your reference a new tank retails at £1163.82 including VAT.  Alternatively we can make a request to all dealerships within the network to enquire about a second hand fuel tank on your behalf.  A second hand fuel tank would also be at your cost and please note so would any labour for any fitment of any replacement tank as well.

 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: H-2 CHARLIE on June 22, 2011, 08:19:14 AM
  I  would say if china or any one would make a high end tank /even plastic / with carbon overlay they would sell alot of these tanks at a great price .   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 22, 2011, 08:34:37 AM
I got this from Ducati UK:


Well, Ducati UK may have never seen it but it's nonsense.  They know about it.

You need to get in contact with other owners and figure out what you can do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 22, 2011, 10:37:28 AM
That's the thing, no one else has had the problem here yet except me!  :'( and yeah they definitely know about the problem but didn't really care


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 22, 2011, 10:47:20 AM
That's the thing, no one else has had the problem here yet except me!  :'( and yeah they definitely know about the problem but didn't really care

have you looked for others?  i have a thread on the ducatisti uk forum asking if people have seen it but not many replies except interest.

have you been using Ethanol-enriched fuel? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 22, 2011, 01:39:53 PM
I have a thread on the UKmonster forum and no one has the problem yet. I bought the bike and only after the mechanic tried to lift the tank (the latch wouldn't open properly) and I read into it I found this thread. Before I bought the bike it had been sat unused for a year so this may be the reason but it hasn't got any worse so far


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on June 24, 2011, 02:31:31 PM
FYI to all - I am sending my old '06 S2R800 Dark fuel tank to the ETI fuel cel guy to use as a template to make tanks with. The only deformation it has suffered seems to be the fuel pump flange. That means it's a good specimen for this purpose. It leaks slightly so I cannot in good conscience eBay it [evil]. At the very least it could ultimately provide a better alternative to leaky carbon and expanding nylon tanks. The ETI guy doesn't currently make tanks for FI Monsters, because nobody has yet contacted him or sent a tank in for him to copy.
So there it is. Those ETI tanks seem superior in every way to OEM. No warping, much lighter in weight. Probably the only permanent solution to this problem.

And no PITA Caswelling adventurism.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 24, 2011, 02:40:40 PM
PM me his info I have another tank if he needs one.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: kopfjäger on June 24, 2011, 04:44:24 PM
The ETI guy doesn't currently make tanks for FI Monsters, because nobody has yet contacted him or sent a tank in for him to copy.
So there it is. Those ETI tanks seem superior in every way to OEM. No warping, much lighter in weight. Probably the only permanent solution to this problem.

Not only does he make one. I have/had 1 (had to be redone). Make sure you ask him if he ever figured out what went
wrong with the one he did for me (twice). They both had killer paint jobs done by DP that had to be
destroyed.  [bang]

(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/Conrad_complete_0041.jpg)

(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/Daryl_July_30_007.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 24, 2011, 05:18:31 PM
What was wring with the tanks you got D?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: kopfjäger on June 24, 2011, 05:30:51 PM
pm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 24, 2011, 05:34:50 PM
Waiting...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on June 24, 2011, 05:43:48 PM
What was wring with the tanks you got D?

Yeah, what were the symptoms?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: kopfjäger on June 24, 2011, 06:03:52 PM
Already jacked the thread. Pm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 24, 2011, 06:09:32 PM
I'll say that it's not too much of a jack, as it's a potential working solution to the expanding tank issue. But hey, that's just me and my beer talking.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on June 24, 2011, 06:38:53 PM
Sorry to be a partial source of a potential thread jack.

Back on topic.

I'm on my third tank, probably over 7 months now (I really can't remember) and I think it's starting to swell just a tad up at the latch.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on June 24, 2011, 06:41:35 PM
Guy told me a few months back that he didn't do plastic tanked FI Monsters. Steel tank FI yes, and his website attests.

So, I'd like to know what the hell went wrong before I donate the tank and pay to have it shipped to him.



every time kopfjager posts a photo of his bike it's a threadjack  [drool]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jerryz on June 25, 2011, 04:52:17 AM
Ducati in UK  refuse to admit there is a problem at all and are saying that owners must pay $2600 for a new tank .......when owners and consumer right people point out the USA Ducati UK say its irrelevant ....lying FXXK*rs


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 25, 2011, 04:57:34 AM
Guy told me a few months back that he didn't do plastic tanked FI Monsters. Steel tank FI yes, and his website attests.

So, I'd like to know what the hell went wrong before I donate the tank and pay to have it shipped to him.



every time kopfjager posts a photo of his bike it's a threadjack  [drool]
I'm sure kopf will fill you in if you pm him


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on June 25, 2011, 09:16:56 AM
Ducati in UK  refuse to admit there is a problem at all and are saying that owners must pay $2600 for a new tank .......when owners and consumer right people point out the USA Ducati UK say its irrelevant ....lying FXXK*rs

I would like to think that the reason that DNA has been much more responsive to the issue is because of efforts from people, especially Tiz. If this truly becomes an issue in the UK, you will need to find advocates that donate their precious time. I like that will be much harder than getting Ducati UK to eventually admit that there is a problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on June 27, 2011, 03:31:15 PM
Not the EPA mandated emissions regs that (barely) protects us yanks?
You got more faith in big business than I my brother.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rockaduc on June 28, 2011, 01:58:13 PM
Just got the call from my dealer.  My second tank is in, i just have to make the appointment.  Took only 1 month from the time they took and submitted photos.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 28, 2011, 03:23:37 PM
I got my first replacement tank in November of 2010. The service manager told me not to coat it because they hadn't had any problems with the replacement tanks. Now my replacement tank has more waves than the Pacific on the sides. This time, the same service manager told me that I might consider a coating for my next replacement tank.

Ever heard of talking out of both sides of your mouth?   :-\   [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 28, 2011, 03:42:18 PM
I got my first replacement tank in November of 2010. The service manager told me not to coat it because they hadn't had any problems with the replacement tanks. Now my replacement tank has more waves than the Pacific on the sides. This time, the same service manager told me that I might consider a coating for my next replacement tank.

Ever heard of talking out of both sides of your mouth?   :-\   [roll]
Perhaps he's more experienced now....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 28, 2011, 03:48:08 PM
I don't think so, because I mentioned Caswells the first time and he said it would cause more problems because of the possibility of chunks floating around. Now Caswells is good? Also, in November, this dealer had already admitted to replacing over 100 tanks. This problem has been going on for years and he should have known what to do by last November.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 28, 2011, 04:00:00 PM
I don't think so, because I mentioned Caswells the first time and he said it would cause more problems because of the possibility of chunks floating around. Now Caswells is good? Also, in November, this dealer had already admitted to replacing over 100 tanks. This problem has been going on for years and he should have known what to do by last November.
Why did you listen to him?

There was good info here last November that hasn't changed significantly.

There has since been a report of the Caswell coating not adhering, but this is the internet and no one really knows all the details, and it's the only report I'm aware of.

It just seemed like you were inferring the SM had real knowledge...

I think you give him way too much credit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 28, 2011, 04:22:20 PM
I don't think so, because I mentioned Caswells the first time and he said it would cause more problems because of the possibility of chunks floating around. Now Caswells is good? Also, in November, this dealer had already admitted to replacing over 100 tanks. This problem has been going on for years and he should have known what to do by last November.

My experience with various service managers over my lifetime is that they claim to know far more than they really do.

,,....
It just seemed like you were inferring the SM had real knowledge...

I think you give him way too much credit.

bingo


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 28, 2011, 08:21:04 PM
Why did you listen to him?

There was good info here last November that hasn't changed significantly.

There has since been a report of the Caswell coating not adhering, but this is the internet and no one really knows all the details, and it's the only report I'm aware of.

It just seemed like you were inferring the SM had real knowledge...

I think you give him way too much credit.
I listened to the service manager beause he is the person who helped me get my tank replaced in the first place. Now that my second tank is swolen I can say I followed his advice. I also expect my dealer to be the expert on this situation. Saying that I took a particular course of action because someone on the DMF told me to doesn't carry much credibility with the dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on June 28, 2011, 10:15:58 PM
With the pending July 22nd decision regarding the Ducati case, is it still a good idea to get the tank looked at by a dealer now?  Mine is not noticeable but it is a pain to latch/unlatch the tank.  Also, the top triple tree hits the tank when I move it to the "lock" position.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 29, 2011, 02:41:21 AM
I listened to the service manager beause he is the person who helped me get my tank replaced in the first place. Now that my second tank is swolen I can say I followed his advice. I also expect my dealer to be the expert on this situation. Saying that I took a particular course of action because someone on the DMF told me to doesn't carry much credibility with the dealer.
Fair enough, but I don't think there are any 'experts' in this situation...

just a bunch of people, DNA included, looking for a solution to a really bad situation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2011, 03:47:25 AM
With the pending July 22nd decision regarding the Ducati case, is it still a good idea to get the tank looked at by a dealer now?  Mine is not noticeable but it is a pain to latch/unlatch the tank.  Also, the top triple tree hits the tank when I move it to the "lock" position.

There is no pending decision.  At this point, there is only pre trial motions.  July 22 is a motion hearing, Ducati has asked that the case be dismissed (it probably won't) or alternatively that the class not be certified (also probably won't go).

A "decision" is not coming any time soon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on June 29, 2011, 05:40:56 AM
Oh ok, thanks.  I'll go ahead and get my tank looked at then. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Africaboy on June 29, 2011, 08:10:27 AM
I have procrastinated about getting my tank looked at. I finally took it back to the dealer yesterday. Guy at the service counter fills in  the paperwork and I ask if he's going to take some photos. One of the tank pads that rest on the frame is a good 1/2" off. He tells me its a known problem and he will submit the claim. Then the mechanic come out and tells me he can re-align the tank. He goes outside has a look and tells me he tank expanded because the vent hose had a slight kink. At this point I was fuming and he again mentioned he could re-align the tank. I told them, the tank has expanded and I wasn't interested in re-aligning it. I will now patiently wait for a week and then its war. Any other expanded tanks in Canada?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 29, 2011, 08:32:11 AM
Thumbs up for Ducati UK they agreed to sort it for me [thumbsup]

If we/they are not careful it could be the end of Ducati and none of us want that so I hope they find a solution soon


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on June 29, 2011, 10:41:26 AM
There is no pending decision.  At this point, there is only pre trial motions.  July 22 is a motion hearing, Ducati has asked that the case be dismissed (it probably won't) or alternatively that the class not be certified (also probably won't go).

A "decision" is not coming any time soon.

I just read in the latest Road and Track that some marine equipment manufacturers are suing the ethonal industry as a result of damage to their equipment.
Wonder if the Marine fuel tanks and other parts are having the same issues and causing customers to react the same way.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 29, 2011, 10:45:56 AM
Not long before we have people marching down the streets with anti Ethanol banners  [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on June 29, 2011, 10:49:00 AM
i think the same article has said that since the mandate for E15, the price of corn has doubled. Sunday BBQ's will soon have corn on the cob more expensive than the steaks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 29, 2011, 10:54:22 AM
Any chance you could scan the article or link?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2011, 10:56:10 AM
i think the same article has said that since the mandate for E15, the price of corn has doubled. Sunday BBQ's will soon have corn on the cob more expensive than the steaks.

What mandate for E15?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on June 29, 2011, 11:03:57 AM
sorry, coming mandate as the industry expects to pull off to meet congressional goals

http://www.ethanol.org/magazine/index.php?id=115&parentid=110 (http://www.ethanol.org/magazine/index.php?id=115&parentid=110)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on June 29, 2011, 11:05:55 AM
Quote
Is this a mandate for E15?

No. The waiver is not a mandate for E15, just an allowance for up to 15 percent ethanol to be used in gasoline where desired


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on June 29, 2011, 11:14:45 AM
give it time...
you can't just shove it it without letting it sit there for a bit at the opening  [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2011, 11:21:37 AM
give it time...
you can't just shove it it without letting it sit there for a bit at the opening  [evil]

LOL


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on June 29, 2011, 11:22:24 AM
I just read in the latest Road and Track that some marine equipment manufacturers are suing the ethonal industry as a result of damage to their equipment.
Wonder if the Marine fuel tanks and other parts are having the same issues and causing customers to react the same way.

It's worse in the marine industry, as I understand it.  First, ethanol dissolves the resins used in fiberglass which not only seriously weakens the gas tanks, but the resin then gums up the rest of the fuel system.  Next, most boats are kept close to water (duh), and ethanol's hygroscopic nature in high humidity environment means it absorbs water more quickly, which in turn causes the ethanol and water to separate out of the gas more quickly, which in turn causes the octane rating to drop.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2011, 11:40:51 AM
It's worse in the marine industry, as I understand it.  First, ethanol dissolves the resins used in fiberglass which not only seriously weakens the gas tanks, but the resin then gums up the rest of the fuel system.  Next, most boats are kept close to water (duh), and ethanol's hygroscopic nature in high humidity environment means it absorbs water more quickly, which in turn causes the ethanol and water to separate out of the gas more quickly, which in turn causes the octane rating to drop.  

the issues are totally different for the marine industry -- it's the ethanol/fibreglass problem for them.  ethanol dissolves the layup resins used in fibreglass.   the water/ethanol issue is a performance problem, but if all boats had aluminum or steel tanks, it wouldn't matter.. same with us I guess...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on June 29, 2011, 08:01:43 PM
Progress report. Had my bike up the shop on June 18th for photos, measurements and analysis. Service manager stated that in his experience, my tank was a good candidate for replacement. They started the good will claim, and mentioned epoxy coating as a "customer pay" service for the new tank.

Heard back yesterday, June 29th, that my tank will indeed be replaced. When the dealer is made aware of shipment, they will schedule a service appt. to install the tank. There was no suggestion or guess of the arrival date of the replacement tank.

I'll post up in the future with more updates as a frame of reference of ONE person's experience.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on June 30, 2011, 05:35:40 AM
the issues are totally different for the marine industry -- it's the ethanol/fibreglass problem for them.  ethanol dissolves the layup resins used in fibreglass.   the water/ethanol issue is a performance problem, but if all boats had aluminum or steel tanks, it wouldn't matter.. same with us I guess...

Ethanol is a problem with steel tanks because once the water begins to separate it causes the tanks to rust.  Ethanol is also corrosive to aluminum, though 10% should be relatively safe.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 30, 2011, 04:21:37 PM
Sooo...  It attacks the resin that holds things together in fiberglass as well eh?  How would this impact the cell that ETI makes?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 30, 2011, 05:17:20 PM
Sooo...  It attacks the resin that holds things together in fiberglass as well eh?  How would this impact the cell that ETI makes?
The eti products should be using epoxy as opposed to polyester resins.

If the caswell product resists the ethanol it would be logical to assume it's the epoxy that is ethanol resistant


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 30, 2011, 06:23:27 PM
The eti products should be using epoxy as opposed to polyester resins.

If the caswell product resists the ethanol it would be logical to assume it's the epoxy that is ethanol resistant

there are plenty of ethanol resistant epoxies around too

this company sells an E85 resistant epoxy http://www.resinlab.com/E85/e85index.html (http://www.resinlab.com/E85/e85index.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: OneWheelDrive on July 05, 2011, 10:44:34 AM
Just got word that my tank claim at GP Motorcycles in San Diego has been accepted and to expect my freshy tank in a month or so.  Great news for me as it is badly warped and swollen.  Also, the PO put some nice zipper scratches in the tank as well as some nicks from a big keychain by the ignition.  Got my fingers crossed!  The question is, should I have them line the tank when it's installed?  There is no Ethenol-free gas around me so I don't want this to happen again!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on July 05, 2011, 01:16:06 PM
OneWheelDrive, did they give you the option to coat at GP?  If so, how much?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on July 05, 2011, 04:44:34 PM
AMA is trying to get support rallying behind a bill prohibiting the Administrator of the EPA from authorizing the use of gasoline containing greater than 10 percent ethanol in certain vehicles.  Please go through this site and show your support.

http://capwiz.com/amacycle/issues/alert/?alertid=51059636&queueid= (http://capwiz.com/amacycle/issues/alert/?alertid=51059636&queueid=)[capwiz:queue_id]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: OneWheelDrive on July 05, 2011, 07:32:12 PM
Spoke with the head tech today, and said there is no reason to coat the tank.  Could cause more trouble than it would fix.  A coated tank cannot be warrantied but if it warps again left unmolested, you just get a new one.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 05, 2011, 07:59:41 PM
Spoke with the head tech today, and said there is no reason to coat the tank.  Could cause more trouble than it would fix.  A coated tank cannot be warrantied but if it warps again left unmolested, you just get a new one.
I don't know if we spoke to the same guy, but I was told the same thing by the GP Motorcycles service manager in November of 2010 when my first tank was being replaced. I spoke with the same guy about two weeks ago to tell him that my new tank was beginning to swell, and he said, "Some of our customers are having the new tanks coated."

He didn't directly advise me to coat my next tank, but he certainly suggested it. GP motorcycles should get together and stay consistent with their message to the customers.





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 05, 2011, 08:10:32 PM
GP motorcycles should get together and stay consistent with their message to the customers.

they don't know any more than anyone else -- the coating thing has only become a "sure" thing in the last year(ish) and plenty of people are out of the loop as far as following those who have had it done to know it is working.

so far, i've only heard one horror story (in this thread) about the coating from Caswell's peeling.  they didn't do it themselves, so i might even question whether it was Caswell's that was used given the many many success stories about it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 05, 2011, 08:16:48 PM
they don't know any more than anyone else -- the coating thing has only become a "sure" thing in the last year(ish) and plenty of people are out of the loop as far as following those who have had it done to know it is working.

so far, i've only heard one horror story (in this thread) about the coating from Caswell's peeling.  they didn't do it themselves, so i might even question whether it was Caswell's that was used given the many many success stories about it.
If they (GP) don't know, they should make it their business to know. It's like the doctor telling me I need my tonsils removed, but I stop by in a month and he says my tonsils are fine.  ??? ???

I'd probably change doctors.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 05, 2011, 08:21:35 PM
If they (GP) don't know, they should make it their business to know. It's like the doctor telling me I need my tonsils removed, but I stop by in a month and he says my tonsils are fine.  ??? ???

I'd probably change doctors.

I agree, but from what I've seen over the last two years that I have tracked this issue, they are about the same as everyone else.

The variations are the dealers who force you to leave your bike until the tank comes in or make you pay a deposit for the replacement tank in case Ducati doesn't approve the replacement.  Those are the dogs. 

Yours is just average for the course.  They are in the dark as much as every other dealer on this issue.

You'd switch doctors and get the same or worse.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: OneWheelDrive on July 05, 2011, 08:33:44 PM
I have absolutely nothing to complain about yet.  Obviously I don't want to have to get more than one tank, but lets just see if everything goes smoothly before I join the ranks of the disappointed.  When I bought the bike (that the sales guy found for me) they inspected it for free, and suggested they warranty the tank, took and submitted the photos, and two days later gave me an update that it was in process.  From what I've read, that's better than most.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on July 05, 2011, 09:43:35 PM
Any folks here have experience with warranty tank claims through Ducati Newport Beach?  (sorry, I hope I'm not thread jacking).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2011, 03:14:21 PM
To date, what is the oldest gas tank that Ducati NA has replaced?

How many have been replaced out of warranty?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 07, 2011, 05:39:47 PM
To date, what is the oldest gas tank that Ducati NA has replaced?

How many have been replaced out of warranty?

Only Ducati knows that.

The first tanks to be replaced were Multis


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: IamSMC on July 09, 2011, 04:47:56 AM
Only Ducati knows that.

The first tanks to be replaced were Multis

Precursor: I haven't followed the plastic gas tank issue since last year when Ducati Soho advised me that Ducati NA wouldn't replace my tank because my '05 S2R 800 was out of warranty.  But they said they could "adjust" my tank so it would fit properly...

But after my past two rides last week, my latch on my tank comes undone. And it appears my tank is definitely swelled a bit since last year.  Also, the ignition switch is now touching the sides of the tank.

I know Ducati Soho is now closed and it crossed my mind that when they "advised" me Ducati NA wouldn't replace my tank, they didn't want to deal with it since they knew they would be closing soon...

So does anyone think Ducati NA would replace my tank now?

And which dealer in the NYC surroundings would best be able to handle this for me?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 09, 2011, 05:37:36 AM
Every time I hear about Ducati Soho I hear a story like this.

DNA will probably replace your tank without any hassle.  Go to another dealer.  Some will allow you to email pics but you need to ask and they'll reinspect the tank when you show up.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: iRam on July 09, 2011, 06:05:46 AM
I think a duc dealer should replace your tank wether you got it from them or its out of warranty. I thought my tank was swelling last month but  it turned out that it just needed retightening of the bolts holding it in. While they were working on my bike i asked them if theyll replace the tank if it starts swelling and the bikes out of warranty. They said DNA will replace it regardless... Sadly that same dealership is now dropping the brand. Hope you find a dealership close to you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: IamSMC on July 09, 2011, 11:33:57 AM
ducatiz, iRam: Oh snap, taking your advise to find another Ducati dealer, on DNA's website it appears Ducati Soho is now Mototainment LLC...

http://www.ducatiusa.com/dealers/united_states/new_york/new_york/mototainment__llc/index.do (http://www.ducatiusa.com/dealers/united_states/new_york/new_york/mototainment__llc/index.do)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 09, 2011, 12:34:57 PM
ducatiz, iRam: Oh snap, taking your advise to find another Ducati dealer, on DNA's website it appears Ducati Soho is now Mototainment LLC...

http://www.ducatiusa.com/dealers/united_states/new_york/new_york/mototainment__llc/index.do (http://www.ducatiusa.com/dealers/united_states/new_york/new_york/mototainment__llc/index.do)

hope it's a new owner...  or something...  so far, no one who has brought them up in the last couple of years said anything good about them..   [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on July 09, 2011, 03:23:33 PM
if you dont mind a bit of a hike, jack trebour in ledgewood nj is a solid dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 09, 2011, 03:46:11 PM
if you dont mind a bit of a hike, jack trebour in ledgewood nj is a solid dealer.

I second that, I have used them for parts for years.  The guy I dealt with (Tyler Roe) is gone now, so I can't vouch for their parts dept anymore, but if Joe is still a wrench there then you are fine.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on July 09, 2011, 03:48:35 PM
I second that, I have used them for parts for years.  The guy I dealt with (Tyler Roe) is gone now, so I can't vouch for their parts dept anymore, but if Joe is still a wrench there then you are fine.

joe's still there... great guy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on July 10, 2011, 03:06:59 AM
People in the Metro have had good results with Rockwell.

http://www.rockwellcycles.com (http://www.rockwellcycles.com)

A bit of a ride, but it is pretty up there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on July 10, 2011, 03:27:06 AM
I know a couple of the guys at Goldcoast out on the island.

They're good guys, but I can't speak about the dealer.

You might check them out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: iRam on July 12, 2011, 07:30:00 AM
Has anyone tried using 3m coating on their tanks? Howd it go?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 12, 2011, 07:35:37 AM
Has anyone tried using 3m coating on their tanks? Howd it go?

If you're referring to ScotchKote, I don't have any information on whether one of them will work with nylon.  (There are 4 varieties of ScotchKote).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: iRam on July 12, 2011, 08:29:23 AM
If you're referring to ScotchKote, I don't have any information on whether one of them will work with nylon.  (There are 4 varieties of ScotchKote).

I believe thats the one. I learned about the coating on this blog.

http://ducsp1000.blogspot.com/2011/03/tank-3-with-coating.html (http://ducsp1000.blogspot.com/2011/03/tank-3-with-coating.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 12, 2011, 08:51:58 AM
I believe thats the one. I learned about the coating on this blog.

http://ducsp1000.blogspot.com/2011/03/tank-3-with-coating.html (http://ducsp1000.blogspot.com/2011/03/tank-3-with-coating.html)

ScotchKote is the product name but there are four kinds of it on the 3M website.  Any epoxy is probably going to be ok, but I'd like to hear that from 3M...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on July 13, 2011, 08:16:17 PM
Took four weeks from photos/claim submittal to approval, then two more weeks for the tank to arrive.  Just need to make an appointment to have the new tank installed.  Very happy with the speedy professional service I receive from Good Times.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on July 20, 2011, 05:48:59 PM
I had a brief conversation with a rep from DNA this afternoon.  It was brought about since I'd had enough of the gas tank dilemma and emailed them to find out if they'd gotten my previous email from four months ago.

What my concern was (is) that there are three main issues I've not been comfortable with.  1) that Ducati never issued any 'heads-up' on what I feel is a potentially serious fuel related issue.  2) that my replacement tank looks like it was painted with a rattle can and 'hand finished' with a broom  3) that the issue is open-ended and can linger on for years, more deformed tanks or problems down the road. 

Two other factors making this more frustrating are that I own other bikes which don't require putzing around with major systems or hoping for a fix on a commodity part like a gas tank.  And that I shouldn't have to pay for stabilizing (lining) a tank.  That should have been done at the OEM, making the tank 'ethanol-neutral'.

The DNA rep basically agreed with all points above (maybe he was just patient or humoring me), also indicating that Ducati's position is that they are replacing tanks with the same material as what came on your original bikes.  Even he indicated that it may or may not deform again in the future, and Ducati is continuing to replace affected tanks into the forseeable future.

The paint finish issues are more subjective and while he agreed, the company replaces the part for functional reasons.  Not always aesthetic reasons.

I also asked why the owners weren't informed directly via email or other means.  He explained that Ducati issues recall or notifications if the government deems it necessary.  Which I understand.  But I have also received notifications of simple things on my other bikes when some small detail may fail.  I just think it's a goodwill gesture.  I see why I didn't get a notification, though I don't agree with it.

We also spoke about the 'necessary accessory' part of buying / owning a Ducati which is the cost of un-choking the exhausts, re-gearing etc which add quite a lot to the overall cost of ownership.  To be honest, I know owning a Duc isn't 'cheap' but I felt I had to make a comparison to other marques.

So, in a nutshell, no news.  Doesn't look like any news for any forseeable future either.  Keep your tank un-lined if you want it replaced after it deforms again I guess.  The saga continues.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 20, 2011, 07:21:44 PM
^^^^^^
What this shoes me is that replacing tanks is relatively cheap for Ducati when compared to the cost of a class action suit for refusing to replace them beyond warranty. I realize there is a class action filed against Ducati for the tank issue, but what are the damages owners can claim when Ducati is already agreeing to replace the tanks? The cost of a trip to the shop? For MOST owners, that is the extent of the damages they can claim.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 20, 2011, 07:22:36 PM
^^^^^^
What this shoes me is that replacing tanks is relatively cheap for Ducati when compared to the cost of a class action suit for refusing to replace them beyond warranty. I realize there is a class action filed against Ducati for the tank issue, but what are the damages owners can claim when Ducati is already agreeing to replace the tanks? The cost of a trip to the shop? For MOST owners, that is the extent of the damages they can claim.

You're pretty much on the money, except for the few tanks that have leaked from the deformation. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on July 21, 2011, 02:59:02 AM
AND, why should anyone honestly feel entitled to anything other than a properly functioning tank? It's not like anything warranting the award of "damages" has occured if your tank hasn't leaked fuel.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on July 21, 2011, 06:53:50 AM
Well my orginal tank had swollen to the point where the controls on the bars would hit the tank at full lock. I think I may have pinched my finger once or twice.. I could've lost a finger.. That's gotta be worth something right?? [wine]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 21, 2011, 07:25:07 AM
Yes.  A new finger.

(http://flipthatbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pat-robertson-tbn-televangelist.jpg)

 [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on July 21, 2011, 07:31:59 AM
Two other factors making this more frustrating are that I own other bikes which don't require putzing around with major systems or hoping for a fix on a commodity part like a gas tank. 

There are a lot of other brands with issues as well (Triumph, Aprilia, KTM, and even Harley Davidson, to name a few).  Not to mention many cars that are having issues with their fuel systems (pumps disintegrating, for instance, and not always covered under warranty), and the marine industry is having a ton of issues, all due to ethanol.

Not that this excuses Ducati, but the matter isn't as simple as switching back to steel tanks (which corrode due to the water that's absorbed by ethanol), fibreglass tanks (which dissolve), or even aluminum tanks (which can corrode with ethanol, though E10 should be safe).  Hopefully the motorcycle industry will adopt a standard ethanol-proof coating. Caswell seems promising, so far, with only a couple of cases I have heard of where the coating starting coming off inside the tank, which may be due to being improperly applied.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: El-Twin on July 21, 2011, 07:33:08 AM
 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on July 21, 2011, 08:38:12 AM
There are a lot of other brands with issues as well (Triumph, Aprilia, KTM, and even Harley Davidson, to name a few).  Not to mention many cars that are having issues with their fuel systems (pumps disintegrating, for instance, and not always covered under warranty), and the marine industry is having a ton of issues, all due to ethanol.

Not that this excuses Ducati, but the matter isn't as simple as switching back to steel tanks (which corrode due to the water that's absorbed by ethanol), fibreglass tanks (which dissolve), or even aluminum tanks (which can corrode with ethanol, though E10 should be safe).  Hopefully the motorcycle industry will adopt a standard ethanol-proof coating. Caswell seems promising, so far, with only a couple of cases I have heard of where the coating starting coming off inside the tank, which may be due to being improperly applied.


Just for a baseline comparison, I own two BMWs.  A 2007 and a 2008.  Not any issue with either.

My S2R is a 2008.

Guess which bikes I'm out RIDING?

Also, I work in the automotive industry (R&D).  If this situation was handled this poorly by an automaker, it would be headlines on CNN and MSNBC believe me, even if the safety issue could be overblown.  We certainly don't need drama for drama's sake but there is a double standard between vehicle types and notifications.  Remember the Toyota incident last year?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on July 21, 2011, 01:59:29 PM
There are a lot of other brands with issues as well (Triumph, Aprilia, KTM, and even Harley Davidson, to name a few).  

It's off topic, but I'd like to hear which Triumphs you know of that have issues, especially if they are fueling related.  Mine was bulletproof when I had it.  Kind of ironic that I sold it to get a finicky KTM.   [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dave328 on July 21, 2011, 04:38:26 PM
Ducati will keep replacing tanks into the forseeable future....that is until Acerbis is forced into bankruptcy by this. If I'm not mistaken, they supply the tanks for Triumph, Aprillia, and KTM, as well.  :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on July 21, 2011, 06:43:18 PM
Quite a few of the current Triumphs still have steel tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on July 22, 2011, 09:25:50 AM
It's off topic, but I'd like to hear which Triumphs you know of that have issues, especially if they are fueling related.  Mine was bulletproof when I had it.  Kind of ironic that I sold it to get a finicky KTM.   [laugh]

There was a MASSIVE thread on a Triumph site where Sprint owners were having their tanks deform and even split/crack.  Apparently, the 995i and Speed Triple is also affected.  Here is a site with a list:

http://deformedfueltanks.com/ (http://deformedfueltanks.com/)

Interestingly enough, the KTM Super Duke is on there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on July 22, 2011, 01:52:25 PM
Interestingly enough, the KTM Super Duke is on there.

I know.  My SD's tank has a few extra nipples on it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on July 22, 2011, 02:24:31 PM
Yes.  A new finger.

(http://flipthatbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pat-robertson-tbn-televangelist.jpg)

 [evil]

Confucius say man who go to sleep with itchy butt wake up with smelly finger


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on July 23, 2011, 09:34:01 AM
"A class action lawsuit has been filed against Ducati for this issue. The lawsuit covers 50,000 motorcycles sold by Ducati and seeks a replacement tank for each of them."

That's a colossal number of bikes by any measure.  I had no idea it was that many.

(also from the site):

Ducati Monster (years?)
Ducati Hypermotard (years?)
Ducati Streetfighter (years?)
Ducati GT 1000 (all years)
Ducati Paul Smart LE (all years .. 2006)
Ducati Sport 1000 (all years)
Ducati Multistrada (years?)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 23, 2011, 10:10:42 AM
Ducatis biggest year was 06 or 07 and that was 42k bikes worldwide.  US and Canada account for about a third of sales.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on July 23, 2011, 12:14:48 PM
"A class action lawsuit has been filed against Ducati for this issue. The lawsuit covers 50,000 motorcycles sold by Ducati and seeks a replacement tank for each of them."

That's a colossal number of bikes by any measure.  I had no idea it was that many.

(also from the site):

Ducati Monster (years?)
Ducati Hypermotard (years?)
Ducati Streetfighter (years?)
Ducati GT 1000 (all years)
Ducati Paul Smart LE (all years .. 2006)
Ducati Sport 1000 (all years)
Ducati Multistrada (years?)
How does this action benefit owners?

If I was Ducati I'd run right up and settle.

"The lawsuit covers 50,000 motorcycles sold by Ducati and seeks a replacement tank"

It seems the affected owners are better off right now with Ducati replacing tanks indefinitely, and some multiple times, out of good will.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on July 23, 2011, 01:28:06 PM
If this is the same class action suit that I've considered joining, the suit seeks more than just a like replacement.  Specifically:

"Plaintiffs seek equitable relief requiring Ducati to disclose that its plastic fuel tanks are incompatible with the motorcycles’ fuel to all existing and prospective customers, and to replace those incompatible fuel tanks with fuel tanks that will not degrade or deform upon contact with fuel."

Dave


"The lawsuit covers 50,000 motorcycles sold by Ducati and seeks a replacement tank"

It seems the affected owners are better off right now with Ducati replacing tanks indefinitely, and some multiple times, out of good will.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 23, 2011, 01:56:05 PM
I would prefer to have one tank that doesn't deform as opposed to numerous replacement tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rockaduc on July 23, 2011, 01:58:59 PM
I would prefer to have one tank that doesn't deform as opposed to numerous replacement tanks.

+ 1 million


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on July 23, 2011, 05:04:34 PM
I would prefer to have one tank that doesn't deform as opposed to numerous replacement tanks.

Yep.

I wonder if there's any ground to claim loss of resale value due to this issue. 

Not counting on it though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 23, 2011, 05:19:08 PM
Depends- will DNA replace tanks for a new registered owner?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 23, 2011, 05:54:45 PM
Depends- will DNA replace tanks for a new registered owner?

Of a used bike?  They have been replacing tanks for 2nd and 3rd owners without question.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 23, 2011, 07:39:31 PM
Of a used bike?  They have been replacing tanks for 2nd and 3rd owners without question.
Good will for DNA [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucsLikeBread on July 25, 2011, 09:29:19 AM
Just took a look at that deform tanks website and I don't see any of the ducati super bikes on the list. Are the tanks for these bikes made of another type of plastic? Or is the problem there but just not on that list?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on July 26, 2011, 04:03:20 AM
FWIW, the Ducati tech at my shop said that they've seen fully 1 out of every 3 Monsters come back with a deformed fuel tank.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 26, 2011, 04:39:24 AM
FWIW, the Ducati tech at my shop said that they've seen fully 1 out of every 3 Monsters come back with a deformed fuel tank.



Where are you/they located? It might be the gasoline there is worse.

Ethanol content in gasoline can vary -- the label on the pump will always say "contains up to 10% ethanol" but that means it could contain 5% or 1% or even 0%, depending on the supplier. 

the best way to know is to test the gas, kits available online. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on July 26, 2011, 06:27:32 AM
Where are you/they located? It might be the gasoline there is worse.

Ethanol content in gasoline can vary -- the label on the pump will always say "contains up to 10% ethanol" but that means it could contain 5% or 1% or even 0%, depending on the supplier. 

the best way to know is to test the gas, kits available online. 

Everywhere around here is pretty much the same.  Testing gas can't help you because one shipment can be completely different from the next.  But it's not the ethanol, though, it's the water.  Ethanol is miscible with water, which just allows water that makes it into the fuel tank to be exposed to a greater surface area of the tank.  PA6 doesn't absorb alchol, but it absorbs 8-11% of its mass in water, which is why it expands.

In my case, the tank never held onto its fuel long enough for ethanol to absorb enough water to be a concern.  I do, however, keep it outside and ride through rain, so those could easily be the source of the water absorption.  This area is also humid during the summer, allowing condensation to form in the morning if the fuel in the tank is cool enough.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 26, 2011, 07:30:20 AM
Everywhere around here is pretty much the same.  Testing gas can't help you because one shipment can be completely different from the next.  But it's not the ethanol, though, it's the water.  Ethanol is miscible with water, which just allows water that makes it into the fuel tank to be exposed to a greater surface area of the tank.  PA6 doesn't absorb alchol, but it absorbs 8-11% of its mass in water, which is why it expands.

In my case, the tank never held onto its fuel long enough for ethanol to absorb enough water to be a concern.  I do, however, keep it outside and ride through rain, so those could easily be the source of the water absorption.  This area is also humid during the summer, allowing condensation to form in the morning if the fuel in the tank is cool enough.

You need to go back an re-read our previous interaction on this matter:

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg829421#msg829421 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg829421#msg829421)

I've been following this issue for over 2 years now.  Nylons do indeed absorb alcohols.  The various kinds of nylon absorb at different rates depending on the conditions, but there is no doubt that Nylon6/PA6 is absorbing ethanol along with water.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on July 27, 2011, 11:45:32 AM
You need to go back an re-read our previous interaction on this matter:

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg829421#msg829421 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.msg829421#msg829421)

I've been following this issue for over 2 years now.  Nylons do indeed absorb alcohols.  The various kinds of nylon absorb at different rates depending on the conditions, but there is no doubt that Nylon6/PA6 is absorbing ethanol along with water.



You are incorrect.  You have yet to post a single shred of evidence that PA6 absorbs ethanol.  The only study previously cited added water to the sample prior to measuring absorption.

Post up a link where a gasoline/ethanol mixture which is devoid of water is shown to cause absorption of the ethanol by the PA6.  Go ahead, I'll wait.  I won't hold my breath.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 27, 2011, 12:05:42 PM
I actually do have something, but it is at home.  Published by a petroleum producer's consortium in Europe.  It recommends against the use of nylon containers for any ethanol enriched fuel.

It does not show a direct result -- no one to my knowledge has looked the specific issue.  However, there are analogous studies with other alcohols (namely benzyl and methyl) and both show absorption. 

Also, the lab that I had test PA6 samples from a Ducati tank did in fact show absorption in the presence of PURE ethanol (100%), which was decided as an appropriate methodology to test whether absorption occurred at all.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 27, 2011, 07:08:29 PM
Here are the sources I have:

CONCAWE, the "conservation of clean air and water in europe" group prepared this document to help manufacturers prepare for the coming ethanol-enriched fuels.

CONCAWE "Guidelines for blending and handling motor gasoline containing up to 10% v/v ethanol" (http://www.concawe.be/DocShareNoFrame/docs/1/BGMDAODACCJPFGBFLLOJBJAAVEVCBW969YBDC3BYWKA3/CEnet/docs/DLS/Rpt_08-3-2008-01143-01-E.pdf)

It does not come out and say right off that "nylon absorbs ethanol" but it does list nylon 66 as an unacceptable material for use with ethanol. Even though our tanks are Nylon 6, they are close enough in composition.  Nylon 6 was developed specifically as an alternative to Nylon 6,6 and they are very similar.

Elsewhere, Nylon 6 has been shown to absorb benzyl and phenol alcohols.  Both are more aggressive solvents than ethanol, but ethanol does have the hydroxyl group as do all phenols.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pen.760080410/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pen.760080410/abstract)

The absorption of ethanol will mostly occur after the tank has undergone hydrolytic degradation -- that is, it has absorbed water and is heated, which occurs whenever the tank is deformed due to water and the engine is on.  Whenever the bike is stationary, heat rises off the engine and warms the tank.  The hydrolytic process breaks the bonds with some of the methyl groups and permits invasion by more moisture and/or other liquids.

Lastly, of the multiple forms of Nylon 6 (6, 6-6, 6-12, etc) several are soluble in ethanol.  This doesn't prove that nylon 6 is easily absorbed by ethanol.  However, when I sent a tank to be tested, one of the tests was contact with 100% ethanol.  The test piece did in fact show increased weight and volume, but it was nowhere near the increase seen when tested in water.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on July 28, 2011, 03:26:01 AM
Here are the sources I have:

CONCAWE, the "conservation of clean air and water in europe" group prepared this document to help manufacturers prepare for the coming ethanol-enriched fuels.

CONCAWE "Guidelines for blending and handling motor gasoline containing up to 10% v/v ethanol" (http://www.concawe.be/DocShareNoFrame/docs/1/BGMDAODACCJPFGBFLLOJBJAAVEVCBW969YBDC3BYWKA3/CEnet/docs/DLS/Rpt_08-3-2008-01143-01-E.pdf)

It does not come out and say right off that "nylon absorbs ethanol" but it does list nylon 66 as an unacceptable material for use with ethanol. Even though our tanks are Nylon 6, they are close enough in composition.  Nylon 6 was developed specifically as an alternative to Nylon 6,6 and they are very similar.

As you can see here:
http://www.ides.com/articles/polyamide_moisture_absorption.asp (http://www.ides.com/articles/polyamide_moisture_absorption.asp)

...Polyamide 6 is significantly better at resisting dimensional changes due to water absorption than Polyamide 6,6.  Both are still quite a bit worse than most other plastics.  (See figures 3 and 4)

Both materials are unacceptable when used with ethanol in significantly higher concentrations, such as with E85.  This is why E85 vehicles come with fuel tanks made from other materials.  But we're not dealing with E85 in our bikes.

Quote
Elsewhere, Nylon 6 has been shown to absorb benzyl and phenol alcohols.  Both are more aggressive solvents than ethanol, but ethanol does have the hydroxyl group as do all phenols.

The hydroxyl group is why it mixes so well with water.  You know what else has a lot of hydroxyl groups?  Carbohydrates, such as glucose and fructose.  But that doesn't cause problems for the PA6.

Benzyl and phenol alocohols are not ethanol and have their own sets of properties.  See page 275 here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7Qq_vknrP4kC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=PA6+benzyl+alcohol&source=bl&ots=0n4Dq1BcQu&sig=Vim_R_4mrVlueGvYlztiL_IYtaI&hl=en&ei=eUIxTuLfKonGgAfs7ZygDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=7Qq_vknrP4kC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=PA6+benzyl+alcohol&source=bl&ots=0n4Dq1BcQu&sig=Vim_R_4mrVlueGvYlztiL_IYtaI&hl=en&ei=eUIxTuLfKonGgAfs7ZygDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Note that it says that PA6 has "better solvent, grease and detergent resistance than PA66."

Also note the following:

"PA 6 is resistant to alcohols, aromatic hydrocarbons, esters and ketones:  the resistance to chlorinated hydrocarbons is only fair.  Has good resistance to oils, greases, fuels, fats, greases and, to alkalis (in say concentrations, of up to 20%).  PA6 is not resistant to acids (dilute and concentrated) and to solutions of oxidizing agents.  Formic acid, concentrated sulphuric acid, dimethyl formamide, phenol and m-cresol are solvents (as for all PA materials).  The density is 1.12 gcm^3/0.65 oz in^3.  As the natural colour of the material ranges from a translucent white to translucent beige, then a wide colour range is possible; both translucent and opaque colours can be obtained.

Both PA 6 and PA 66 will absorb large amounts of water, for example, they will absorb approximately 10% of water at saturation.  However, PA 6 absorbs more water than PA 66 under the same conditions.  The material is supplied dry; as supplied the material is suitable for processing however, if containers are left open rapid water absorption will occur.  If moisture content is >>0-2%, flow and component properties are affected and the material must be dried.  Dry in a well ventilated, hot air oven for 16 hours at 80 degrees C."

Bold added for emphasis.

Quote
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pen.760080410/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pen.760080410/abstract)

The absorption of ethanol will mostly occur after the tank has undergone hydrolytic degradation -- that is, it has absorbed water and is heated, which occurs whenever the tank is deformed due to water and the engine is on.  Whenever the bike is stationary, heat rises off the engine and warms the tank.  The hydrolytic process breaks the bonds with some of the methyl groups and permits invasion by more moisture and/or other liquids.

I'm still waiting for you to supply a source on this.  You claim that it's also absorbing the ethanol, but still have nothing backing it up.  It may very well also be the case, but I'd like to see actual research, or even just a source.  On top of that, the water absorption alone is enough to explain what people are seeing.

Quote
Lastly, of the multiple forms of Nylon 6 (6, 6-6, 6-12, etc) several are soluble in ethanol.  This doesn't prove that nylon 6 is easily absorbed by ethanol.  However, when I sent a tank to be tested, one of the tests was contact with 100% ethanol.  The test piece did in fact show increased weight and volume, but it was nowhere near the increase seen when tested in water.

Luckily E5, E10, and E15 are nowhere near this concentration.  As we all know, concentration matters greatly.

Edit:  Even if it absorbs minute amounts of ethanol, the effect is nowhere near the expansion seen with water absorption.  It's like worrying about the tack in your foot while there's a sword piercing your gut.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 28, 2011, 05:51:37 AM
As I indicated, I don't have that.  I posted what I do have.  We observed a dimensional change in the samples when in contact with ethanol.  Yes, the concentration is different, but my original point was simply that "pa6 absorbs ethanol."  "How much" and "under what conditions" are very relevant questions, but for purposes of demonstrating that the tank material is inappropriate for use as an ethanol-enriched gasoline cel, our test was sufficient.

Industry review of PA6 as a fuel container have focused on the water absorption issue because of the dimensional changes and the likelihood of hydrolytic degradation.  However, the interaction of specific fuel ingredients has ~never~ been reviewed by anyone until now.  My guess is that the material is so new (in this use) that the issue hasn't arisen until now.  I would be surprised if there weren't a few people looking at it and will be publishing in the coming year(s).

However, right now, we know that PA6 does absorb ethanol.  It's possible that in a 10% v/v solution that it does not do so due to other interactions with the gasoline component, or maybe it is faster due to the water component. 

At this point there is only my work on the matter.

I don't have any more to contribute here, this isn't really helpful to the thread.  If you need to reply, please do so in PM and we can post the results later. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on July 28, 2011, 07:43:09 AM
Progress report. Had my bike up the shop on June 18th for photos, measurements and analysis. Service manager stated that in his experience, my tank was a good candidate for replacement. They started the good will claim, and mentioned epoxy coating as a "customer pay" service for the new tank.

Heard back yesterday, June 29th, that my tank will indeed be replaced. When the dealer is made aware of shipment, they will schedule a service appt. to install the tank. There was no suggestion or guess of the arrival date of the replacement tank.

I'll post up in the future with more updates as a frame of reference of ONE person's experience.

More progress. My dealer received my tank last week. Had my tank checked on June 18th, replacement was confirmed on June 29th, and I am now scheduled for installation on August 19th. About 2 months in process so far.

My dealer also SUGGESTED "ethanol-resistant" epoxy coating at about $175. They are going to do this ahead of time so the tank is ready to install on the 19th.

They stressed that epoxy coating isn't a Ducati-approved solution. They also stressed that they are unsure how willing Ducati will be to replace tanks in the years to come.

I'll post up pics after the install, but so far, so good.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 28, 2011, 08:58:57 AM
More progress. My dealer received my tank last week. Had my tank checked on June 18th, replacement was confirmed on June 29th, and I am now scheduled for installation on August 19th. About 2 months in process so far.

My dealer also SUGGESTED "ethanol-resistant" epoxy coating at about $175. They are going to do this ahead of time so the tank is ready to install on the 19th.

i would like to know what he plans to use.  ask please?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on July 28, 2011, 09:35:14 AM
i would like to know what he plans to use.  ask please?

just called them up. it's caswell.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on July 28, 2011, 04:27:21 PM
 New tank in transit. I'm going to have Indianapolis Ducati coat it.  (Caswell)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on July 28, 2011, 07:55:06 PM
I have a plastic gas container that I have had gas in for at least ten years.  It has ridges molded into it for strengh and I can tell that it is not stretched wrinkled or expanded.  I bought two of them, used the one and put the other one away for future use but never needed it.  They are still identical.  I am thinking about doing a Caswell on the unused one. [laugh] Seems curious that not all plastics expand with E10?  Not a very technical observation but then sometimes the simple ones get you. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 29, 2011, 03:52:54 AM
I have a plastic gas container that I have had gas in for at least ten years.  It has ridges molded into it for strengh and I can tell that it is not stretched wrinkled or expanded.  I bought two of them, used the one and put the other one away for future use but never needed it.  They are still identical.  I am thinking about doing a Caswell on the unused one. [laugh] Seems curious that not all plastics expand with E10?  Not a very technical observation but then sometimes the simple ones get you. 

It's probably layered HDPE.  Not the same material.  HDPE has been in use for car gas tanks for a while probably around 10-15 years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on July 29, 2011, 03:46:43 PM
It's probably layered HDPE.  Not the same material.  HDPE has been in use for car gas tanks for a while probably around 10-15 years.

Yep : That is my point.   How could R/D engineers be that blind to not use materials that are available and proven to work for their project.  Instead use a material that is already a proven nightmare in the boating and other industries.  Odds are it was a production decision.  And Ducati is still using the same company. WOW!   Sounds like politicians are running the show.   [cheeky]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on July 29, 2011, 07:52:58 PM
Yep : That is my point.   How could R/D engineers be that blind to not use materials that are available and proven to work for their project.  Instead use a material that is already a proven nightmare in the boating and other industries.  Odds are it was a production decision.  And Ducati is still using the same company. WOW!   Sounds like politicians are running the show. [cheeky]

One reason is paint adhesion problems..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rockaduc on July 30, 2011, 12:37:03 PM
Just had my 2nd replacement tank installed today.  TIme from pics taken at dealer to arrival of new tank: 1 month.  [thumbsup] 
Time it took me to find the time in my schedule to get to the dealer to have the work done: 2 months  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on July 30, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
Does anyone have a link with the most recent status of the lawsuit. From what I remember, Ducati was applying for a motion to dismiss with the result being determined July 22?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 30, 2011, 02:02:33 PM
They have a continuance to August for the status of the mtd.

Login to the ecF court site isn't free


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 01, 2011, 05:18:02 PM
Ah.

HERE'S something that's interesting (and more than bit of a double standard).

Ford today announced a recall of their full size trucks due to retaining straps failing and possibly causing the tank to fall away from the vehicle:

"Ford Motor Co. said Monday that it is recalling 1.22 million pickups in the United States and Canada over concerns about fuel tanks dropping and causing fire."

also

"NHTSA said in May it had 243 reports involving the fuel tank dropping below the vehicle and/or dragging on the ground, 95 involved fuel leakage, and nine included reports of sparks from the tank being dragged on the road.

NHTSA had one report of strap failure in which the leaking fuel ignited but self-extinguished. Ford reported another incident in which the leaking fuel ignited and the resultant fire destroyed the vehicle."

So.  The possibility of a fuel related issue brings an automaker to issue a recall, but a deforming motorcycle tank lifting off the frame rails with equal possibility of coming away from the vehicle is not considered recall material?

As I understand it Ducati has not issued a recall to inspect all affected motorcycles.   :P

Keep in mind this is 243 reports out of 1.2 MILLION vehicles.   

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110801/AUTO01/108010408/1148/auto01/Ford+recalling+1.2M+pickups+for+fire+concerns (http://www.detnews.com/article/20110801/AUTO01/108010408/1148/auto01/Ford+recalling+1.2M+pickups+for+fire+concerns)





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 01, 2011, 05:41:36 PM
This is an interesting comparison, and you have a very valid point.

But Ford seems to be doing the right thing of its own volition. Ducati could choose to do the same.

Think about the negative publicity Toyota received over the sticking throttle linkage. Ford doesn't want the same magnitude of negative publicity.

Would a relatively small motorcycle manufacturer like Ducati receive the same amount of negative publicity as Ford or Toyota? In addition, I haven't heard of any life-threatening accidents caused by Ducati tanks. Yes, the potential  for injury is there, but until it happens, I think we will be stuck with replacement tanks of the same quality. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 02, 2011, 04:30:59 AM
^ agreed.

But in one situation, you're sitting on top of the fuel tank.  In the other situation the tank is outside of your compartment, below and behind you.

Which would be more important to issue a recall?  In the event of a potential failure, which would be more catastrophic?

This has been my main complaint from the beginning; that Ducati has never issued a recall directly to the owners to inform them of any potential risk.  Or at least document it so the models could be brought in for initial inspection as automobile OEMs do.

Ducati, being as small a manufacturer as they are run the risk of this getting out of hand and causing a negative reputation similar to Toyota (as you noted).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on August 02, 2011, 04:48:07 AM
^ agreed.

But in one situation, you're sitting on top of the fuel tank.  In the other situation the tank is outside of your compartment, below and behind you.

Which would be more important to issue a recall?  In the event of a potential failure, which would be more catastrophic?

This has been my main complaint from the beginning; that Ducati has never issued a recall directly to the owners to inform them of any potential risk.  Or at least document it so the models could be brought in for initial inspection as automobile OEMs do.

Ducati, being as small a manufacturer as they are run the risk of this getting out of hand and causing a negative reputation similar to Toyota (as you noted).

some interesting points here, i happen to agree.
in my lowly opinion, they should have bit the bullet, and cut this issue off before it COULD get out of hand.
i'm of the belief that someone, likely someone not here on the board, is going to die as a result of this... and even then, i doubt ducati will do anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 02, 2011, 04:54:43 AM
Ah.

HERE'S something that's interesting (and more than bit of a double standard).

Ford today announced a recall of their full size trucks due to retaining straps failing and possibly causing the tank to fall away from the vehicle:

"Ford Motor Co. said Monday that it is recalling 1.22 million pickups in the United States and Canada over concerns about fuel tanks dropping and causing fire."

also

"NHTSA said in May it had 243 reports involving the fuel tank dropping below the vehicle and/or dragging on the ground, 95 involved fuel leakage, and nine included reports of sparks from the tank being dragged on the road.

NHTSA had one report of strap failure in which the leaking fuel ignited but self-extinguished. Ford reported another incident in which the leaking fuel ignited and the resultant fire destroyed the vehicle."

So.  The possibility of a fuel related issue brings an automaker to issue a recall, but a deforming motorcycle tank lifting off the frame rails with equal possibility of coming away from the vehicle is not considered recall material?

As I understand it Ducati has not issued a recall to inspect all affected motorcycles.   :P

Keep in mind this is 243 reports out of 1.2 MILLION vehicles.   

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110801/AUTO01/108010408/1148/auto01/Ford+recalling+1.2M+pickups+for+fire+concerns (http://www.detnews.com/article/20110801/AUTO01/108010408/1148/auto01/Ford+recalling+1.2M+pickups+for+fire+concerns)

It's a totally different circumstance, on the facts.

truck with tank separating and falling off

vs

motorcycle with tank expanding and 1 in 10000 (?) leaking.

So far no ones tank has come off and no one has experienced a flameout. 

There was a big flameout on a 999 in Australia, but FWIW it was an injector problem, and that's a metal tank.

So far, luckily, no one has been burned.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 02, 2011, 05:04:20 AM
It's a totally different circumstance, on the facts.

truck with tank separating and falling off

vs

motorcycle with tank expanding and 1 in 10000 (?) leaking.

So far no ones tank has come off and no one has experienced a flameout.  

There was a big flameout on a 999 in Australia, but FWIW it was an injector problem, and that's a metal tank.

So far, luckily, no one has been burned.

IMHO, it's only a matter of time before someone A) isn't informed, and B) rides thinking their deformed tank is not an issue.  Leading to C) potential open fuel/flameout.

Per the Ford recall, nobody has been burned in that instance either.  But Ford was proactive enough to inform owners of the vehicles.  The recall goes back to model year 1997.

Ducati may not have any flameouts, but apples-to-apples they should have stepped up and sent out communication to appropriately describe the situation.

If you compare these two issues with fuel tank related issues, it makes Ford look like heroes (which is only what any automaker OEM is responsible for) and Ducati looks shady since they're avoiding and ignoring it.

I'm not implying that Ducati replace EVERY tank, but to have them inspected so an accurate estimation on how the tank was/is deforming on a case-by-case basis.  Not communicating to this end is negligent in my opinion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 02, 2011, 05:58:53 AM
IMHO, it's only a matter of time before someone A) isn't informed, and B) rides thinking their deformed tank is not an issue.  Leading to C) potential open fuel/flameout.

Per the Ford recall, nobody has been burned in that instance either.  But Ford was proactive enough to inform owners of the vehicles.  The recall goes back to model year 1997.

Ducati may not have any flameouts, but apples-to-apples they should have stepped up and sent out communication to appropriately describe the situation.

If you compare these two issues with fuel tank related issues, it makes Ford look like heroes (which is only what any automaker OEM is responsible for) and Ducati looks shady since they're avoiding and ignoring it.

I'm not implying that Ducati replace EVERY tank, but to have them inspected so an accurate estimation on how the tank was/is deforming on a case-by-case basis.  Not communicating to this end is negligent in my opinion.

I would say the risk in the two circumstances is 100% different.

The risk of a metal gas tank, dragging on the ground is far far more serious than the risk of a tank expanding.

Put it this way...

it will only take one metal Ford tank, dragging on the ground to produce a flameball.

so far, i personally know of 5 people who have had leaky ducati tanks, and none of them have burned.

Put it another way, the risk in the Ford situation is 1:100 whereas the risk in teh Ducati situation is 1:50,000.  if that. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 02, 2011, 06:14:32 AM
Point is that you have a flammable liquid being contained over a high heat source (engine).  If said fuel container does leak (in just the RIGHT way) it is a flame situation.  The fuel pump and seal is right above the top cylinder on my bike.

Just like 'if' the fuel tank drops from a Ford truck and 'if' it creates a spark.

Both are 'possibilities' I agree.  Both need to be communicated to owners regardless of what the statistical probability would be.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Armor on August 02, 2011, 08:02:39 AM
The plastic tanks are not leaking.  There are far more leaks on metal tanks.  (My metal tank was leaking)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: OneWheelDrive on August 02, 2011, 08:21:38 AM
Haven't you guys seen fight club?  

"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

Ducati would never issue a voluntary recall unless there were confirmed cases of injury or death as a result of catastrophic failure.  Have there been any confirmed injuries from expanded tanks?  Hurt feelings because you bought a $14k bike that has wavy paint doesn't count.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 02, 2011, 08:42:21 AM
Haven't you guys seen fight club?  

"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

Ducati would never issue a voluntary recall unless there were confirmed cases of injury or death as a result of catastrophic failure.  Have there been any confirmed injuries from expanded tanks?  Hurt feelings because you bought a $14k bike that has wavy paint doesn't count.

I agree with you. 

But. . . . in both cases, there have not been injuries.  Why the double standard for automakers sending out recall notifications, and there were none in Ducati's situation?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 02, 2011, 09:09:22 AM
The plastic tanks are not leaking.  There are far more leaks on metal tanks.  (My metal tank was leaking)

There are far more metal tanks leaking because the design was more numerous -- eleven or twelve years worth of bikes.

The plastic tanks ARE leaking.  I have video of several.  The lawsuit against Ducati involves two different models which leaked.  I have observed two different monsters with leaking and documented multistradas with leaking tanks.

Plastic tanks have only been used since 2004, so that's seven years of tanks involved. 

There will probably be fewer plastic tanks leaking because so many people are getting tanks replaced when the tank is distorting whereas the metal tanks were never replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on August 02, 2011, 10:13:51 PM
I agree with you. 

But. . . . in both cases, there have not been injuries.  Why the double standard for automakers sending out recall notifications, and there were none in Ducati's situation?

You mean like the Ford Pintos or Crown Vic Interceptors?  In both cases Ford was forced into a recall after people died.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 03, 2011, 04:08:30 AM
You mean like the Ford Pintos or Crown Vic Interceptors?  In both cases Ford was forced into a recall after people died.

Iacocca lied, people died..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mike_D on August 20, 2011, 08:04:49 PM
I was a little worried after almost three months but my local dealer called and said my claim for a new tank was approved and the tank was in so I drop the bike off on Wednesday for replacement.  I asked about getting the tank treated with Caswells but they said they have never done one and that DNA is replacing virtually all tanks no questions asked so why bother.  I said it seemed crazy to do it that way when a reasonable fix was a lot less costly, but they didn't seem too concerned. The service manager said they just replaced a tank on a sport 1000 that had 30,000 miles and was years out of warranty but DNA didn't blink an eye and just replaced it.  How can Ducati as a company continue to do this without suffering financial problems, especially in this economy?       


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 20, 2011, 08:14:27 PM
I was a little worried after almost three months but my local dealer called and said my claim for a new tank was approved and the tank was in so I drop the bike off on Wednesday for replacement.  I asked about getting the tank treated with Caswells but they said they have never done one and that DNA is replacing virtually all tanks no questions asked so why bother.  I said it seemed crazy to do it that way when a reasonable fix was a lot less costly, but they didn't seem too concerned. The service manager said they just replaced a tank on a sport 1000 that had 30,000 miles and was years out of warranty but DNA didn't blink an eye and just replaced it.  How can Ducati as a company continue to do this without suffering financial problems, especially in this economy?       
My guess is that Ducati gets reimbursed by the tank manufacturer; moreover, the tanks don't cost Ducati that much, especially when you compare the total cost of all replacement tanks to the potential cost of a lawsuit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mike_D on August 20, 2011, 08:23:17 PM
Maybe Acerbis should design a metal tank. . .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on August 22, 2011, 06:49:31 AM
It's probably layered HDPE.  Not the same material.  HDPE has been in use for car gas tanks for a while probably around 10-15 years.
Yep : That is my point.   How could R/D engineers be that blind to not use materials that are available and proven to work for their project.  Instead use a material that is already a proven nightmare in the boating and other industries.  Odds are it was a production decision.  And Ducati is still using the same company. WOW!   Sounds like politicians are running the show.   [cheeky]

Impact grade HPDE vicat softening point:  167 - 264 °F
Impact grade PA6 vicat softening point:  212 - 437 °F

Impact grade HPDE deflection Temperature at 0.46 MPa (66 psi):  158 - 167 °F
Impact grade PA6 deflection Temperature at 0.46 MPa (66 psi):  113 - 410 °F

That's why--HDPE just can't deal with the same temperatures that PA6 can.  Automotive fuel tanks do not sit on top of hot engines, so they can utilize a wider range of plastics.

Additionally, automotive fuel tanks do use PA6, but are layered with various materials, so the PA6 is never exposed to the fuel, or to the outside elements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on August 22, 2011, 06:51:49 AM
The plastic tanks are not leaking.

Incorrect.  Mine was and I have video.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on August 22, 2011, 06:57:23 AM
More progress. My dealer received my tank last week. Had my tank checked on June 18th, replacement was confirmed on June 29th, and I am now scheduled for installation on August 19th. About 2 months in process so far.

My dealer also SUGGESTED "ethanol-resistant" epoxy coating at about $175. They are going to do this ahead of time so the tank is ready to install on the 19th.

They stressed that epoxy coating isn't a Ducati-approved solution. They also stressed that they are unsure how willing Ducati will be to replace tanks in the years to come.

I'll post up pics after the install, but so far, so good.

Progress Update:
Tank was installed on schedule on Friday, August 19th. That's nearly exactly 2 months after the original inspection by the service manager. The tank itself looks great, no bad paint or anything. It fits perfect, like it did when I bought the bike. My dealer was even kind enough to reinstall my TechSpec knee pads. The Caswell coating cost me $185 out-of-pocket with the kit and labor. Is that steep? I don't really have a basis for judgement. $185 seems like a small price compared to the $1500–$2500 for the aluminum or CF tank that was my other option. All in all, pretty satisfied with the experience.

After all the smoothness, I'm willing to reveal that the guys at European Motorcycles in Wexford, PA (just outside of Pittsburgh) treated me great through the whole thing. Lee, the service manager, is great to work with and doesn't give you any run-around BS. If you're in the area and are experiencing issues, I suggest you give them a visit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 22, 2011, 07:03:00 AM
After all the smoothness, I'm willing to reveal that the guys at European Motorcycles in Wexford, PA (just outside of Pittsburgh) treated me great through the whole thing. Lee, the service manager, is great to work with and doesn't give you any run-around BS. If you're in the area and are experiencing issues, I suggest you give them a visit.

I have heard prices for coatings running around $200 so that's about right.

The kit costs $50 for a single shot, and figure 1 hour of labor getting the tank off and on, probably 1 hour for prep and coating time and then reinstall. 

Dealer prices for bulk coating probably are a LOT cheaper as they could buy it in bulk and only use the amount needed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on August 22, 2011, 04:06:34 PM
If I would have known about the hassle of coating it myself, I would have gladly paid $185.00 to have it done.  You did the "Good call" ..............


Progress Update:
Tank was installed on schedule on Friday, August 19th. That's nearly exactly 2 months after the original inspection by the service manager. The tank itself looks great, no bad paint or anything. It fits perfect, like it did when I bought the bike. My dealer was even kind enough to reinstall my TechSpec knee pads. The Caswell coating cost me $185 out-of-pocket with the kit and labor. Is that steep? I don't really have a basis for judgement. $185 seems like a small price compared to the $1500–$2500 for the aluminum or CF tank that was my other option. All in all, pretty satisfied with the experience.

After all the smoothness, I'm willing to reveal that the guys at European Motorcycles in Wexford, PA (just outside of Pittsburgh) treated me great through the whole thing. Lee, the service manager, is great to work with and doesn't give you any run-around BS. If you're in the area and are experiencing issues, I suggest you give them a visit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on August 22, 2011, 04:32:30 PM
If I would have known about the hassle of coating it myself, I would have gladly paid $185.00 to have it done.  You did the "Good call" ..............

Yea I had figured on that. Not to mention I'd be doing it for the first time, whereas these guys had done it at least a couple times already...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on August 22, 2011, 05:57:31 PM
i dunno... i liked doing it for myself because i know exactly what happened.  a few pages back there was a guy who did it at the dealer and it seems like the dealer didnt mix it correctly and it was flaking off.

even though the dealer's done it a lot more times, doesnt mean they're not going to screw it up :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on August 23, 2011, 10:19:12 AM
Incorrect.  Mine was and I have video.

Agreed. Mine did and I almost caught on fire from leaking fuel onto the vertical header pipe. There is no way to precisely predict how a big piece of plastic is going to deform under these circumstances. Some tanks will leak fuel, others won't. They will all deform somehow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Ak1nza on August 23, 2011, 03:41:29 PM
I had my tank replaced under warranty and the process took me 2 weeks.  A couple days for approval and then the bike was brought to the shop early in the week, tank ordered and overnighted in a few days and coated as soon as they received it.  I picked the bike up the following weekend so I didn't have my bike for all of one weekend. 

Had them Caswell coat for me for $250 and it's been nearly 2 months and looking good!  Dealer also said they had done tens of tanks and none of them are seeing any expansion issues after the coating, so sounds promising!  I was amazed at how much the tank had expanded as I bought the bike used.  Prior to replacement my top triple would just hit the tank on left side.  So it expanded 1-2" front to back.  Rubber frame mounts were sitting about .5"-1" off so it was about 1-2" wider too.  Nuts!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on August 24, 2011, 02:24:46 PM
i dunno... i liked doing it for myself because i know exactly what happened.  a few pages back there was a guy who did it at the dealer and it seems like the dealer didnt mix it correctly and it was flaking off.

even though the dealer's done it a lot more times, doesnt mean they're not going to screw it up :(

I wonder if a dealer does the Caswell, will that put the reliablility in thier hands.  Actually I am suprised dealers are doing it being the pain that it is and the fact that they should now be liable for the caswell working.  On second thought  you are right, I am glad I coated mine myself.......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on August 25, 2011, 06:35:03 PM
I wonder if a dealer does the Caswell, will that put the reliablility in thier hands.  Actually I am suprised dealers are doing it being the pain that it is and the fact that they should now be liable for the caswell working.  On second thought  you are right, I am glad I coated mine myself.......

i'd say if the coating itself fails (i.e. incorrect mixing or application), the dealer would likely be liable for that... at least in my eyes. but if the tank swells again, even with the coating... well, that's ducati all the way still.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on August 26, 2011, 02:15:03 AM
but if the tank swells again, even with the coating... well, that's ducati all the way still.

Not necessarily.  If that were to happen, Ducati (or anyone for that matter) could easily point to the fact that you altered the tank in a way that is deemed unacceptable by the manufacturer and deny any follow-on warranty claim.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2011, 01:31:13 PM
A proposed settlement has been developed in the lawsuit.

I'll be posting the document when it is published.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ZOSO on August 26, 2011, 04:15:40 PM
Not to steal thunder from IZ and his efforts but here it is:

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati%20-%20Motion%20for%20Preliminary%20Approval%20of%20Class%20Settlement.pdf (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati%20-%20Motion%20for%20Preliminary%20Approval%20of%20Class%20Settlement.pdf)


Edit: I'm also an attorney but I'll let IZ summarize the proposed settlement - some good news, some bad news, some absolutely incredible news (modifications to ALLOW for expanding tanks?!)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on August 26, 2011, 04:57:21 PM
I'm not really sure what to make of this.

Essentially Ducati is acknowledging the issue and will offer extended warranty coverage, which is what they've been doing anyway. 

In certain cases, they'll be replacing the original tank with a modified tank that, when it expands due to ethanol, will still clear all the necessary mechanicals parts (triple clamps, radiator guards, etc).

The problem with this is that it doesn't really "fix" the issue.  You'll still have a crappy-looking tank that will have warps and dipples, but at least it won't get you in an accident.  And you'll have a long enough warranty that you can keep replacing the tanks for cosmetic issues related to expansion.

I dunno, sounds like the only thing we really got was that Ducati officially acknowledged the problem but doesn't have a fix.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on August 26, 2011, 05:00:19 PM
I'm not really sure what to make of this.

Essentially Ducati is acknowledging the issue and will offer extended warranty coverage, which is what they've been doing anyway.  

In certain cases, they'll be replacing the original tank with a modified tank that, when it expands due to ethanol, will still clear all the necessary mechanicals parts (triple clamps, radiator guards, etc).

The problem with this is that it doesn't really "fix" the issue.  You'll still have a crappy-looking tank that will have warps and dipples, but at least it won't get you in an accident.  And you'll have a long enough warranty that you can keep replacing the tanks for cosmetic issues related to expansion.

I dunno, sounds like the only thing we really got was that Ducati officially acknowledged the problem but doesn't have a fix.
Well...

lawyers were involved...

It'll cost plenty. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on August 26, 2011, 05:11:08 PM
It's official.

I need to either sell my bike, or save my nickles and dimes and pay for a hand made metal tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 26, 2011, 05:17:11 PM
This is bull$hit.

After all this drama, witnessing distorted tanks, hearing about handlebar interference and leaking fuel pump seals, THIS is all we get???

Hey, Ducati, don't extend yourself too far now.  Just do the absolute minimum.  Adjust steering stoppers???  Offer a shorter seat?  Have a kit available that band-aid fixes the ignition and frame interference?  Really?  That's how you run a company and expect people to TRUST in your product line.

It sounds to much like General Motors in the 80s and 90s and how they dealt with customers.

Yes, I read the document.  And I'll say it again.  This is bull$hit.  This comes the week after I have been trying to get a 44t rear sprocket in 520.  For anyone who has done that, there is no cheap way to do it.

And evidently there is no cheap way for Ducati to man up and do the right thing.  I thought this company has balls.  I thought they were the underdog and were worth rooting for.

I was wrong.

It's official as NorDog said.  The bike is for sale.  S2R 1000, 4000 miles, immaculate condition. Located in SE Michigan, will help with delivery.  PM me for details.

This is my last Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jwoconnor on August 26, 2011, 05:35:13 PM
So they will replace a tank for cosmetic reasons up to 18 months after the suit is final or 5 years after purchase whichever is longer, yes? My '06 will still be covered through next year then.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 26, 2011, 05:37:47 PM
So they will replace a tank for cosmetic reasons up to 18 months after the suit is final or 5 years after purchase whichever is longer, yes? My '06 will still be covered through next year then.

And what after that?

Flexy, leaky bloated flyer once that tank screws the pooch. 

Gee, that sounds like a very responsible fix to me!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on August 26, 2011, 05:51:58 PM
sadly, I'm done with Ducati.........end of story.
I'll keep my Monsters because they have a metal tank but after these it's over.  And I so loved the brand.   [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2011, 06:37:22 PM
First off..

This is not final.  The settlement is a proposed settlement between Ducati and the plaintiffs.  EVERYONE in the affected class (that means anyone who owns an affected bike and is known to Ducati) will get a letter.  So if you have never notified Ducati that you have a bike, now is the time to do it.  I am not sure exactly how to do that, so I'd call them or email them in Cali.

Secondly..

You will have the opportunity to opt out, or notify the court of the inadequacy of the settlement.  The letter you get will specify what your rights are. 

Thirdly..

If you expected to get a metal tank out of this, then you haven't been paying attention.  Please don't post here.  There never was any chance of that happening.

Fourthly..

Ducati has been replacing tanks without regard to warranty status of the bike.  Yes, it sucks that the new tanks have expanded too, but for a long time Ducati had no idea what was causing the problem, and when it was finally figured out, they started working with me to figure out some sort of solution that didn't break them. 

That being said, the "fixes" in the settlement seem a bit lame to me and I'm a bit surprised at them.  It is possible that the coatings we've found work, but present an issue for Ducati as a manufacturer and -- just as they can't ship a bike from the factory with high comp pistons and straight pipes -- they can't ship a bike with the coating.  However, that doesn't mean the coating didn't work. 

Put it this way:  I bet most of you have modifications on your bike that would make it illegal for Ducati to sell.  Your PCIII, your track-only Termis, etc.  Point is, the coating works but Ducati can't do it.  It seems to me they are trying to extend the warranty enough so that everyone gets a new tank and spends the $50 to coat it themselves or the 150-200 to get a dealer to do it.  And when people pregnant dog about this, I'll remind myself to ask them what they paid for their aftermarket exhaust, brake upgrades or carbon fibre wheels. 

And I sort of agree with the argument that "I shouldn't have to pay 50-200 bucks to make my bike work right"... well.. tough. 

I'm not going to turn my back on Ducati.  There isn't another bike company out there that interests me.  Honda would stop making bikes in a flat second if the profit margin on vacuum cleaners was higher.   Yamaha would stop making bikes if they could ship more grand pianos and Suzuki as well.  Those companies don't live or die from your bike purchase, but Ducati does.  And you know what?  Ducati isn't perfect. 

Few of you are either old enough or have the balls enough to own a bevel Ducati, and I can tell you those bikes were problems and if there were as many law firms trolling for suits as there are now, Ducati would have gone back to making radio tubes.

Ducati is a race company.  They don't win every race.  But they live and die from building race bikes.  Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/et al are zaibatsus.  They make everything from toasters to pianos to dildos and they could give a shit if you buy a bike from them, because they know you'll end up buying a toaster or something similar.  They'll get your money.

I am not happy about the settlement, it's not what I wanted.  I wanted Ducati to find a coating that would work and not mess with their homologation and could be done for cheap enough so they could keep building beautiful bikes that make me hard.

So, if the prospect of spending $50 or 200 to get your tank coated pisses you off so that you're dumping the brand, fine, go buy that 'busa and enjoy the ride.  Maybe someday you can go to Japan and meet the robot that made your bike, or any one of the thousands of factory people who stood there wanking to manga while the robot put your 'busa heads on.   I've been to the Ducati factory twice now and I know I met the guys/gals who built my bike -- why?  Because the company only has 1100 people worldwide, and the 100 or so floor people building bikes were the only ones who do it. 

Anyhow.

I'm not happy and I'll probably write a nasty letter to the judge, tear it up and then write a polite but stern letter explaining why I don't care for the settlement, the least of which being that the plaintiff attorneys did practically nothing compared to my work on the matter, determining the problem.  Will it make a difference? I don't know, I don't know Judge Fogel.  But it doesn't matter much, I have a coated tank and it's fine and it won't expand. 

It's probably the cheapest mod I did on my bike.





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 26, 2011, 06:57:12 PM
I received a replacement tank in November of 2010. My dealer told me not to bother with the coating because they were not having expansion issues with the replacement tanks. Now my replacement tank is expanding. Will I be allowed to get
another new tank and coat it this time?

If I don't get another tank, will I at least get a jar of Vaseline?  [laugh]

If they don't replace the tank, I will buy a tank with a lifetime guarantee from CA Cycleworks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2011, 06:58:00 PM
I received a replacement tank in November of 2010. My dealer told me not to bother with the coating because they were not having expansion issues with the replacement tanks. Now my replacement tank is expanding. Will I be allowed to get
another new tank and coat it this time?

Yes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 26, 2011, 06:59:44 PM
Thanks!  ;D I'd rather have the tank than the vaseline. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2011, 07:08:34 PM
Thanks!  ;D I'd rather have the tank than the vaseline. [thumbsup]

For less hassle, get it into a dealer before the settlement is complete.  Once that happens, the clock will be ticking and the dealers will have to use the rules in the settlement (which pretty much they already do).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 26, 2011, 07:13:04 PM
I'm glad you did what you did in this endeavour.  Nobody in any aspect of motorcycling has ever posted as much information and explained both sides of the situation as you have done.  Period.  I just have to say that and tip my hat to you, sir.

However.  Ducati needs to get off their collective a$$es, man up and change the polymer.  If they ran injection molds of tanks with PE3, then shoot them with polypropylene, ABS, Styrene, WHATEVER that will not be affected by ethanol.  Nobody can tell me that Ducati or its suppliers don't have chemical engineers on staff that can't spec plastics that are 1) able to resist ethanol and its long term effects, or 2) that they could propose a cost-effective plastic or polymer that resists ethanol and gets on the good side of its customers.

This, in essence was what I was hoping for.  A company 'doing right' instead of hiding behind litigation, and perpetuating the warping tank syndrome.  Yes, Ducati is replacing tanks that have been affected, and in two years, three years. . . .then what?

This is simply the straw that broke the camel's back for me.  I'm with you on the costs of numerous aftermarket mods that Ducati cannot sell on its OEM bikes due to NHTSA, FMVSS or EPA regulations (yes, I work in the automotive industry and am VERY familiar with fuel systems and other regulations).  That said, I have willfully added over $4k to the initial cost of the bike, often 'guessing' what will work.  DP ECU for one.  Termignoni exhaust for another.  Gearing, clutch slave, etc etc.  Factor in those who spend monies on PC3, dyno time to 'get it right' and you're dropping further down the rabbit hole and for what? 

These bikes should have arrived closer to the specs we seek out with those mods.  A direct comparison is BMW, which I have noted before.  Not any 'cheaper' than Ducati, but you get a bike that works, performs right out of the box.  BMWs generally don't require $5k just to get them to feel right riding through traffic or to feel less 'congested' in their exhausts.  Ride an S1000R back to back with a 1198 and tell me what you feel.

So, okay that's a separate argument.  But now we see that Ducati isn't exactly standing behind its owners or its products despite a negligent (my adjective) spec on their fuel tanks.  They're continuing to replace them with the same stuff.  Really?  Yes, I am being a bit of a diva here, but what are our long term options?  The costs you noted getting a tank Caswell coated isn't close to what we see in my neck of the woods.  More like 2-300 bucks.  Purchase a Beater tank for $2500 in aluminum?  Yeah, adding 25% of the purchase price of my bike in an item that shouldn't be giving me issues just doesn't make sense on my planet.

I could go round and round.  Ducati isn't serious about their existing customer base.  That's clear.  You can drink the Kool-Aid, patch up the shortcomings on your bike with thousands in aftermarket goods, and masturbate over how good they look.  I've done that.  I can't dodge that bullet.  But I can't do that any more.  Ducatis MSRPs keep climbing (look at the MS, SF and Diavel if you need reference) with the expectation of adding many 'extras'.  And I'm no longer going to be guessing and trying to find what works and what doesn't.  I'm simply going to move the Ducatis along, and enjoy riding.

That's what it's all about isn't it?  I'm not a brand-whore.  I don't care to be.  I just like riding more than I do trying to fix a bike that shouldn't be broken in the first place.  And I have a particular German dealership I will be visiting. . . . very soon.

Auf Wiedersehen, Ducati.  There are two philosophies in Italian and German bikes.  Italian bikes have you adapting to them.  Like anything Italian. . . suits, shoes, cars.  German bikes are like the Silent Servant that takes care of things and caters to you, becoming an extension of you.  You fit the bike every time.  Two philosophies.  Two manufacturers.  Just an observation.

I know Ducati had a terrific sales year and good for them.  My leaving won't mean anything to them.  But just as GM had their reputation follow them for decades, I openly wonder if there will be anything similar from this situation.  Growing in NA with its economic pressures will be challenging. . . especially in the demographics that can afford Ducatis.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on August 26, 2011, 07:21:29 PM
Yes.

I don't know if I read that correctly in the settlement.  Most of the dealers have been telling myself (and others) that if you coat the replacement tank, that's the end of the line for you receiving replacement tanks.

So just to be clear, if the terms of this settlement are approved, if I go have my dealer coat my replacement tank and the coating doesn't work, I can still get another tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2011, 07:24:53 PM
I don't know if I read that correctly in the settlement.  Most of the dealers have been telling myself (and others) that if you coat the replacement tank, that's the end of the line for you receiving replacement tanks.

So just to be clear, if the terms of this settlement are approved, if I go have my dealer coat my replacement tank and the coating doesn't work, I can still get another tank?

Since I have been following this for a couple of years, I've been in contact with about a dozen dealers -- not a one has been instructed to look inside the tank.  They will look inside when they remove it that's only after your new tank has been approved and received.

That being said, if you get the tank coated it isn't going to expand.  One of the guys on my list has a MTS that has almost 3 years on the same coated tank.  Nothing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on August 26, 2011, 07:28:50 PM
First off..

If you expected to get a metal tank out of this, then you haven't been paying attention.  Please don't post here.  There never was any chance of that happening.

[clip]

Few of you are either old enough or have the balls enough to own a bevel Ducati, and I can tell you those bikes were problems and if there were as many law firms trolling for suits as there are now, Ducati would have gone back to making radio tubes.

So, if the prospect of spending $50 or 200 to get your tank coated pisses you off so that you're dumping the brand, fine...

[clip]

Anyhow.

I'm not happy and I'll probably write a nasty letter to the judge, tear it up and then write a polite but stern letter explaining why I don't care for the settlement, the least of which being that the plaintiff attorneys did practically nothing compared to my work on the matter, determining the problem.  Will it make a difference? I don't know, I don't know Judge Fogel.  But it doesn't matter much, I have a coated tank and it's fine and it won't expand.  

It's probably the cheapest mod I did on my bike.


Just for the record, I am old enough and have balls enough to have ridden a bevel Ducati.  Only back in the day I didn’t have enough sense to do so.  Rather in the ‘70s and ‘80s I was riding Harleys.  If I had even SEEN a Ducati back then I would have been all over it.

Also, I have had no notion that I would get a metal tank out of this deal.  I just wish someone would make one I could buy that is a straight swap.  Such a thing does not exist to my knowledge, and I’ve looked.

About the money to have a tank coated – I have no problem spending the money (heck, it would cost a small fraction of buying that non-existent metal tank).  My problem with coating is that, again back in the day, I remember lots of guys coating their metal tanks to guard against rust only to have the crap flake off and clog up the fuel lines.  I really don’t want to see that happen with the tank on my S4RS.  If I pay someone to coat my tank I want them to stand behind the work.  I don’t know who that would be, or where they are.

I’m talking about selling my bike because I don’t have the time to deal with this issue.

Perhaps I need to investigate the coating option a bit more.  I just need to be convinced that it’s a solution to the problem, not something that could make the problem worse.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2011, 07:40:34 PM
Perhaps I need to investigate the coating option a bit more.  I just need to be convinced that it’s a solution to the problem, not something that could make the problem worse.


When the dust settles a bit, and my contacts at Ducati get back to me, I have the engineering folks at a fairly large chemical firm willing to test their coating to certify it for use with nylon. 

SO far we just have the anecdotal evidence that the common epoxy coatings do work (Caswells for instance).  Caswell has looked at it and says that it adheres well and blocks everything -- they've started listing plastic gas tanks on their website.

However, I'd rather have a manufacturer put it to some real tests.  That may come.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on August 26, 2011, 07:40:58 PM
Since I have been following this for a couple of years, I've been in contact with about a dozen dealers -- not a one has been instructed to look inside the tank.  They will look inside when they remove it that's only after your new tank has been approved and received.

That being said, if you get the tank coated it isn't going to expand.  One of the guys on my list has a MTS that has almost 3 years on the same coated tank.  Nothing.

Well, unfortunately the dealer will be aware of the tank coating because I have to instruct them to coat the replacement before they put fuel in.  That said...

I'm definitely going to with the Caswell coating.  Very tired of dealing with this (I know you are!).  It happened on my Monster and it's started to happen on my 7 month old Streetfighter.  The models are separated by three years, I would've thought this issue would've been solved.  Nope.

Everyone is very appreciative of your hard work on this, myself included.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 26, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
"Auf Wiedersehen, Ducati.  There are two philosophies in Italian and German bikes.  Italian bikes have you adapting to them.  Like anything Italian. . . suits, shoes, cars.  German bikes are like the Silent Servant that takes care of things and caters to you, becoming an extension of you.  You fit the bike every time.  Two philosophies.  Two manufacturers.  Just an observation."   ;D [clap]LOL!!!!   I'll be speaking Deutsch for my next ride as well, but not because of the tank issue. I just turned 57 and I'm gettin' too frail to be hauling ass around on a Monster. With a Beemer, I can cruise and also become a little less involved with the bike's maintenance when I'm not riding it.

I wonder, what tank is Ducati using on the new bikes? My friend is trying to decide between a Multistrada and a Moto Guzzi. If Ducati is still using the same tanks, I will advise against the Duc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on August 26, 2011, 08:20:56 PM
I have been looking at R1150RTs.  I need a bike I can take on the road with the wife on the back.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on August 26, 2011, 08:49:54 PM

If you expected to get a metal tank out of this, then you haven't been paying attention.  Please don't post here.  There never was any chance of that happening.


So, if the prospect of spending $50 or 200 to get your tank coated pisses you off so that you're dumping the brand, fine, go buy that 'busa and enjoy the ride.  Maybe someday you can go to Japan and meet the robot that made your bike, or any one of the thousands of factory people who stood there wanking to manga while the robot put your 'busa heads on.   I've been to the Ducati factory twice now and I know I met the guys/gals who built my bike -- why?  Because the company only has 1100 people worldwide, and the 100 or so floor people building bikes were the only ones who do it.  

I never expected metal replacement tanks, not that it matters to me any longer since I dumped by S2R.  I'm a firm believer in doing right by the customer.  I have no clue what Ducati has spent on this charade but I'll bet it would have been far cheaper to simply dump their manufacturer and find a replacement that works.  The worst part in all of this will be the people leaving and for a small manufacturer like Ducati that hurts.  It took them roughly 10 years to climb back on top from their previous "BS", how long this time?

And I don't plan on buying a Busa, but I did have my heart set on a brand new Multi first part of 2012.....not anymore.

Lastly, thank you for your personal efforts!  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on August 26, 2011, 08:52:14 PM
Man, you just gotta love the legal system  [roll]  NOT!

Let's see, the attorneys get $835K from Ducati, and as an owner of an '06, I get zip, nada, zilch.  Already on my third replacement tank from Ducati, and per this settlement, that would likely be my last (because in a month or so, my 5 years are up).  And I already got the new brackets.  

I guess I should be happy knowing everything is good now.    [bang]

I sure hope my coating holds up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on August 27, 2011, 03:37:27 AM
Opening another can of worms:

Ducatiz: if you have heard (or even want to) - what about Europe?

Touring Europe this summer, I see E5 as the usual 95 gas, E10 on many pumps and E15 as the low priced alternative on a few.
I haven't heard of any issues (not saying there aren't any), but I expect the Italian Ducati crowd to burn down the factory if Ducati treats them like DNA seems to be treating US owners.

Comments?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on August 27, 2011, 04:36:17 AM
.......I'm a firm believer in doing right by the customer.  .........The worst part in all of this will be the people leaving and for a small manufacturer like Ducati that hurts.  It took them roughly 10 years to climb back on top from their previous "BS", how long this time?........

Sales are up and climbing.  Ducati doesn't care about us.

I love my Sport Classic but it is a torture rack to ride.  Still, I would never want to sell it.  So I was looking at getting a M796 or a HM796 next month.  I just couldn't decide between the two.  With how this settlement turned out, and with both those bikes having tank problems, I think maybe the choice will be to get an Aprilia Shiver 750, or better still, a Triumph Street Triple R.  Nice job Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on August 27, 2011, 04:39:23 AM
Sales are up and climbing.  Ducati doesn't care about us.

I love my Sport Classic but it is a torture rack to ride.  Still, I would never want to sell it.  So I was looking at getting a M796 or a HM796 next month.  I just couldn't decide between the two.  With how this settlement turned out, and with both those bikes having tank problems, I think maybe the choice will be to get an Aprilia Shiver 750, or better still, a Triumph Street Triple R.  Nice job Ducati.

Go ahead...

buy the Ape and see how it works for you...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226143 (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226143)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on August 27, 2011, 05:21:12 AM
Go ahead...

buy the Ape and see how it works for you...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226143 (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226143)

Yea, Aprilia is having the same issues.  I was seriously looking into an RSV4, but decided against it due to the tank issues.  Hell, even MV has gone to the nylon tanks with their current bikes. 

Looks like it's either a Triumph of Kev's 999 for me...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 27, 2011, 05:30:11 AM
Sales are up and climbing.  Ducati doesn't care about us.

I love my Sport Classic but it is a torture rack to ride.  Still, I would never want to sell it.  So I was looking at getting a M796 or a HM796 next month.  I just couldn't decide between the two.  With how this settlement turned out, and with both those bikes having tank problems, I think maybe the choice will be to get an Aprilia Shiver 750, or better still, a Triumph Street Triple R.  Nice job Ducati.

I've personally spoken with about 2 dozen people in UK/Europe with the same issues.  I don't feel the problem will be as pronounced there because people use their bikes a lot more -- so they are cycling fuel thru the tank faster, so any separation or moisture gets passed thru instead of sitting.

However, they are still seeing the problem.  The tanks are also different somewhat -- the venting that is on the US tanks isn't present there.  They vent to atmosphere freely, which may mean the water vapour is breathing out instead of accumulating in the tank.

On the US tanks, there is only ventilation when the engine is running -- the manifolds provide a vacuum to the charcoal canister which then pulls from the tank.  When you stop, the system shuts off and any remaining vapour (gasoline or water or ?) stays.  Heat from the engine rises and warms the tank and condensation, just like in your crankcase, results.

Since the european tanks vent to atmosphere, any pressure that's built up (which aids in condensation (see Boyle's Law) is released.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on August 27, 2011, 06:13:00 AM
Thanks!

Does ethanol absorb maximum moisture all at once or is it a gradual process?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on August 27, 2011, 06:24:15 AM
Am I correct that for those of us who have removed the evaporative canister (in accordance with DMF sticky/tutorial), our tanks are venting in essentially the same way as the stock European tanks?  If so, my bike is one example where conventional venting to atmosphere has not precluded tank swelling  :(

Dave


However, they are still seeing the problem.  The tanks are also different somewhat -- the venting that is on the US tanks isn't present there.  They vent to atmosphere freely, which may mean the water vapour is breathing out instead of accumulating in the tank.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: scduc on August 27, 2011, 09:25:34 AM
So after skimming through the proposed settlement, I've come to the conclusion that we are going to get screwed. If I am correct, tanks will only be replaced up to 6 years max. I say if that is the case, then everyone who is approaching the 6 year limit, get your bike to a dealer and get the new tank. Then go at get it coated. Cuz after that we are on our own.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on August 27, 2011, 01:27:11 PM
"Auf Wiedersehen, Ducati.  There are two philosophies in Italian and German bikes.  Italian bikes have you adapting to them.  Like anything Italian. . . suits, shoes, cars.  German bikes are like the Silent Servant that takes care of things and caters to you, becoming an extension of you.  You fit the bike every time.  Two philosophies.  Two manufacturers.  Just an observation."   ;D [clap]LOL!!!!   I'll be speaking Deutsch for my next ride as well, but not because of the tank issue. I just turned 57 and I'm gettin' too frail to be hauling ass around on a Monster. With a Beemer, I can cruise and also become a little less involved with the bike's maintenance when I'm not riding it.

I wonder, what tank is Ducati using on the new bikes? My friend is trying to decide between a Multistrada and a Moto Guzzi. If Ducati is still using the same tanks, I will advise against the Duc.


Maybe not:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43185.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43185.0)
nor Triumph:
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/146633-ethanol-fuel-ruins-speedie-fuel-tank.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/146633-ethanol-fuel-ruins-speedie-fuel-tank.html)
as already stated, Aprilia,
or even MZ:
http://www.mzriders.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4990 (http://www.mzriders.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4990)
it seems Harley isn't immune:
Harley Davidson XR1200, Fuel Tank swelling problem, update (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egslC4_p_Oc#)

I'm sure there is more out there, but I think there is enough to show this is an industry wide problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on August 27, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
It's interesting that Triumph has been using nylon tanks on the Speeds for a while now, yet still use metal on the 675 bikes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on August 27, 2011, 02:59:27 PM
offhand, is it confirmed that the mts/diavel tanks are not pa6?  i think i remember ducatiz saying that those new models didnt have this issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jwoconnor on August 28, 2011, 07:21:34 PM
For those that think BMW is any better, you should check out some of the BMW final drive threads online. Poor engineering or QC, hard to say but it can strand you anytime, anywhere. I'd rather have tank deformation, I could still get home.

I'd also like to thank ducatiz for all his efforts on our behalf. No good deed goes unpunished.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 29, 2011, 03:33:52 AM
For those that think BMW is any better, you should check out some of the BMW final drive threads online. Poor engineering or QC, hard to say but it can strand you anytime, anywhere. I'd rather have tank deformation, I could still get home.


I see you have an 07 GS. Has it left you stranded?  Any issues?  I own two BMWs, an 07 GS and a Megamoto. Zero issues. In fact, just got back from an all-day on the GS and didn't feel like I needed a chiropractor. Bike performed flawlessly.  YMMV.

I don't put stock in 'Internet rumors' since there are variables that contribute to each issue (scheduled maintenance, abusing the bike, extreme conditions, etc). I may have a different take if I had a final drive fail on the GS, but I'm just not seeing it. Of course if I have an issue that's being discussed, my ears perk up accordingly and see how it can be resolved.

Also on your GS, how many service bulletins did you get from BMW, on the ring antenna, brake line routing, and CANBUS wiring?  Those were pre-emptive fixes that BMW thought best to address before (or if) they snowballed.

Ducati?  No such notification. So how does that reflect on how you are valued as an owner of a BMW or a Ducati?  Based on owning an S2R and a GS, it's clear to me which manufacturer values me after the sale has been completed.  That's how I draw that conclusion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on August 29, 2011, 04:13:44 AM
This whole thing is good and messy now.
I don't feel much better after reading the document, but I do wonder what the heck these modified parts will look like.  New hindge, shorter seat? huh?
Coating after 6 years does seem like the only option.  It's not horrible, but sucks to some extent to have to do it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 29, 2011, 08:58:49 AM
Just for my curiosity, I asked a number of tooling engineers here what it would cost to create a set of tools to make a gas tank. 

We assumed the tank is split lengthwise (evidenced by the flash and standing ridge at the hinge detail on most Ducati tanks), and involves a pressure / blowmolding operation, insert bosses for tank stops and fuel pump nuts. Post manufacturing work to mill a flush mount for the fuel pump or bore the sleeve for the tank hinge pivot etc.  Paintable finish, but not completely Class A quality on all surfaces (underneath as one example area).

Total tooling estimate:  $350,000 +/- 10% for a low production set of tools, low run rate (meaning these aren't being kicked out every 5 seconds).

This is 'if' Ducati needed to re-tool for a different polymer specification.  Now I'm unsure about the total Ducati paid to fight this situation, but it would seem to me that a check for 350k (give or take) would have remedied this with far more positive results.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on August 29, 2011, 12:40:05 PM
Just for my curiosity, I asked a number of tooling engineers here what it would cost to create a set of tools to make a gas tank. 

We assumed the tank is split lengthwise (evidenced by the flash and standing ridge at the hinge detail on most Ducati tanks), and involves a pressure / blowmolding operation, insert bosses for tank stops and fuel pump nuts. Post manufacturing work to mill a flush mount for the fuel pump or bore the sleeve for the tank hinge pivot etc.  Paintable finish, but not completely Class A quality on all surfaces (underneath as one example area).

Total tooling estimate:  $350,000 +/- 10% for a low production set of tools, low run rate (meaning these aren't being kicked out every 5 seconds).

This is 'if' Ducati needed to re-tool for a different polymer specification.  Now I'm unsure about the total Ducati paid to fight this situation, but it would seem to me that a check for 350k (give or take) would have remedied this with far more positive results.
What are the associated costs of governmental approvals...and I'm not talking bribes.

If they change the material they have to re-certify it in every country.

I don't see there being a simple answer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 29, 2011, 01:43:10 PM
What are the associated costs of governmental approvals...and I'm not talking bribes.

If they change the material they have to re-certify it in every country.

I don't see there being a simple answer.

I suppose there could be costs for revalidation, which I'd like to know more about (again, for my curiosity).  I wonder of it's as academic as filing paperwork, and getting it through the system, or if there are substantial fees involved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on August 29, 2011, 02:07:47 PM
I suppose there could be costs for revalidation, which I'd like to know more about (again, for my curiosity).  I wonder of it's as academic as filing paperwork, and getting it through the system, or if there are substantial fees involved.

No idea about a bike, but for a car it was ~ $3,000.000 total for both USDOT & NHTSA ten years ago. The cars are even hot and cold soaked in a cabinet in Flint, Michigan to verify "residual" emissions. The process is ugly.

You pay a heavy "tax" from these regulations on every vehicle you buy. Time for another revolution?  ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 29, 2011, 02:55:59 PM
No idea about a bike, but for a car it was ~ $3,000.000 total for both USDOT & NHTSA ten years ago. The cars are even hot and cold soaked in a cabinet in Flint, Michigan to verify "residual" emissions. The process is ugly.

You pay a heavy "tax" from these regulations on every vehicle you buy. Time for another revolution?  ;)
Same type of process for bikes.  SHED testing, crash testing, etc.  Theyhave to do it for each model.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: scduc on August 29, 2011, 03:41:22 PM
So then if this passes, we owners have to hope and pray that within the 6 year period, that our tanks have a big enough problem to be replaced. then wait until the last moment. Hopefully our dealers will allow us to take the tank with no fuel (virgin) then its our responsibilty to get it coated and once again pray that it works. I plan on keeping my bike for many years to come.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on August 29, 2011, 03:50:14 PM
Okay, but what about 2012 bikes?  Or 2013 bikes?  Are they just gonna go with a 6 year time limit on all tanks from now on?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 29, 2011, 04:52:48 PM
Same type of process for bikes.  SHED testing, crash testing, etc.  They have to do it for each model.

You mean 'sled' testing?  That's mandatory for all automotive interior components, and does use a collision runner, (a 'sled') to emulate 25g forward force, 10g rearward and varying lateral forces.  It anchors all hardware points and measurements are taken afterward to record any deformation.  For this reason, seat sets (driver and passenger frames especially) and seat track hardware is nearly never changed.

If there is similar validation, securing hard points (axles, head tube, and downward forces on footpegs) then yes, it would be quite a process.  Though I don't know the expense or requirements for a gas tank with identical dimensions made from slightly different polymers.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 29, 2011, 05:03:42 PM
No I meant SHED testing that the EPA does to test how much vapor escapes when the tank is in use.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 29, 2011, 05:06:01 PM
No I meant SHED testing that the EPA does to test how much vapor escapes when the tank is in use.

Interesting.  Id be curious to know the collection (complete physical, chemical, and durability) of tests that are run to get a tank certified.  If Ducati had trouble merely changing the polymer, it would help explain why they didn't go that route.  And what it would have/could have cost them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jmc on September 11, 2011, 02:30:41 PM
I just signed up and filed the NHSTA form.

My 2007 S2R1000 tank is warped and corroding near the gas cap.

Here's one photo of the corrosion:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zQUYRujGZrX4KZPlN26vSw?feat=directlink

Here's one of some weird stuff that looks like mildew coming out of the space between the cap and tank (could this be from evaporating gasoline?):

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/px2YFzUw3mUq6HX6men_nA?feat=directlink

Here's a photo of how much the gas cap has moved because of the corrosion underneath (you can see the mildew in this one too):

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/x83RQ4ILqob-yi47KA78cw?feat=directlink


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on September 14, 2011, 05:49:18 PM
Regardless if you get a replacement tank or not, you will have to use the same filler neck parts on your new tank.  Though I can't tell exactly what that scaly stuff is, I'd guess it's just dirt and road grime mixed with some fuel that sloshed up and into that filler neck region.  The offset in your gas cap surround may be due to the tank itself instead of any mildew.  Mildew generally won't grow in a chemical environment like a gas tank.  Unless it's very very humid and still in your garage.

On my 'new' tank, one side fits the seat really nicely, and the other side is 3/8 of an inch different.  So you may hear the phrase 'they're all like that'.   [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Artful on September 15, 2011, 07:48:37 AM
Regardless if you get a replacement tank or not, you will have to use the same filler neck parts on your new tank.  Though I can't tell exactly what that scaly stuff is, I'd guess it's just dirt and road grime mixed with some fuel that sloshed up and into that filler neck region.  The offset in your gas cap surround may be due to the tank itself instead of any mildew.  Mildew generally won't grow in a chemical environment like a gas tank.  Unless it's very very humid and still in your garage.

On my 'new' tank, one side fits the seat really nicely, and the other side is 3/8 of an inch different.  So you may hear the phrase 'they're all like that'.   [roll]

When my tank was replaced it had the same scale as pictured above. It isn't mildew but actually corrosion to the metal around the filler neck. The replacement tank included the affected portion and resolved the issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on September 15, 2011, 02:07:39 PM
weird that it is corroding like that.   My ye olde (and crazy heavy by comparison) two steel m900 tanks and one steel 888 tank do not show similar corrosion, though I've only run ethanol-y fuel in only one of those bikes, unrelated coincidence is likely.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on September 15, 2011, 02:22:53 PM
weird that it is corroding like that.   My ye olde (and crazy heavy by comparison) two steel m900 tanks and one steel 888 tank do not show similar corrosion, though I've only run ethanol-y fuel in only one of those bikes, unrelated coincidence is likely.
The fuel opening area on the plastic tanks are galvanized, not painted like the steel tanks.

I've seen some powdery residue on them before.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on September 15, 2011, 02:25:53 PM
VEEEERRY interesting. speaking of steel tanks, you done an 888 tank before? i'd really like to figure out which giant openings go to what, since the one I've got is bare right now, and sitting on a modified m900 frame for being built into a montrackster.  for a different thread i figure.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: bikepilot on September 15, 2011, 02:42:07 PM
The wife's 620 is corroding like that as well. I need to take it in for a tank replacement sometime soon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on September 15, 2011, 03:05:28 PM
VEEEERRY interesting. speaking of steel tanks, you done an 888 tank before? i'd really like to figure out which giant openings go to what, since the one I've got is bare right now, and sitting on a modified m900 frame for being built into a montrackster.  for a different thread i figure.
I have one in my shop now.

pm me


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: OneWheelDrive on September 23, 2011, 11:58:54 AM
Brand new tank installed on my '07 S4RS in an hour at GP Motorcycles in San Diego.  Took about 2 months start to finish.  Hats off to Jesse and the crew over there for taking great care of me and my bike!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on September 23, 2011, 07:59:03 PM
Brand new tank installed on my '07 S4RS in an hour at GP Motorcycles in San Diego.  Took about 2 months start to finish.  Hats off to Jesse and the crew over there for taking great care of me and my bike!

Did they do the coating for you?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: OneWheelDrive on September 24, 2011, 08:06:01 AM
At their recommendation I decided against the coating.  They have had instances where they had expansion even with Caswell, nullifying the warranty entirely. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bick on September 24, 2011, 08:25:10 AM
At their recommendation I decided against the coating.  They have had instances where they had expansion even with Caswell, nullifying the warranty entirely. 

Answers my question.

My tank was replaced in February. 

New tank has expanded. 

Was going to see if they would coat it for me.  I guess not.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on September 24, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
At their recommendation I decided against the coating.  They have had instances where they had expansion even with Caswell, nullifying the warranty entirely. 

Shouldn't nullify warranty at all. That is blowing smoke up your ass.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on September 24, 2011, 10:39:53 AM
I got the SECOND warranty tank replacement for my S2R installed a couple weeks ago.   I can already see significant expansion in the same locations (frame bumpers, key antenna...).  This sucks.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on September 25, 2011, 07:11:31 AM


 :-X :-X :-X   [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: That Motorcycle Show on September 25, 2011, 07:21:09 AM
I bought a plastic tank on flea bay for eighty bucks and I am putting it to good use. It is going to be a wall piece for my daughter. Check out the link for pics.
http://ducati.kontain.com/that-motorcycle-show/entries/68613/tattoed_tank_art/ (http://ducati.kontain.com/that-motorcycle-show/entries/68613/tattoed_tank_art/)


Title: tank replacement...
Post by: TAftonomos on September 29, 2011, 06:22:23 PM
Still waiting 5+ weeks for my tank replacement to come in.  Dropped off my s4rt before indy motoGP...

Called 3 times, never a call back from the man in charge.  Each time I was told I'd get a call back.

Called today and tried to find out about picking the bike up, so I could at least ride the thing since the weather is nice.  Parts guy couldn't answer that question, but told me I'd get a call back...Pfft...never happened.

How Fing long does this crap take?  First couple times I just called, and they called me within 2 weeks and told me to bring my tank in, swapped out the bits while I was there...simple.  This time my bike sits impounded while the nice weather is here....

Grrrr


Title: Re: tank replacement...
Post by: Greg on September 29, 2011, 06:47:53 PM
I waited till the tank arrived before I took my bike to the dealer.


Title: Re: tank replacement...
Post by: Novelo on September 29, 2011, 07:57:41 PM
You want it go get it, I never got a call back.


Title: Re: tank replacement...
Post by: DucRS on September 29, 2011, 08:09:51 PM
I'm still waiting for a response and it's been "9" weeks and my S4RS is about to give birth, to twins, it's so bloated.
I call the shop in SF and their response is well, Ducati hasn't responded back
cause they're so busy this time of year. :-\
What do I do?



Title: Re: tank replacement...
Post by: TAftonomos on September 29, 2011, 09:16:04 PM
You want it go get it, I never got a call back.

Can you elaborate on that?


Title: Re: tank replacement...
Post by: booger on September 29, 2011, 09:45:16 PM
I think it has been proven a wise thing to coat these tanks once you get them, so that you never have to go through this again...

You would think everyone's on the same page, but a lot of people haven't gotten the memo. At some point replacement tanks won't be available, much less free.

So coat it when you get it.


Title: Re: tank replacement...
Post by: DucNaked on September 30, 2011, 03:05:01 AM
I'm still waiting for a response and it's been "9" weeks and my S4RS is about to give birth, to twins, it's so bloated.
I call the shop in SF and their response is well, Ducati hasn't responded back
cause they're so busy this time of year. :-\
What do I do?



Go around your dealer and contact DNA directly. My dealer jerked me around for 7 weeks until I emailed DNA. DNA called me the same day and I had a new tank the next week.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on September 30, 2011, 04:14:38 AM
Do not leave your bike at the dealership if you are only waiting for the tank.  There is no need for that, they can take pictures to include in the warranty claim.  Tank swap has been a quick thing the last times I had it done, same day while I played around in the showroom.
 
I do not believe that the dealers can require anyone to leave the bike there until the new tank comes, unless it's actively leaking fuel...then maybe.  I'm no expert, but DNA is obviously presently replacing tanks as needed so the dealers **should** not be inconsistent.
 
berg, I do agree with what you are implying, but in my case, until they close the door on replacing my tank under warranty, I am going to continue to replace it as needed.  This is because IF they do figure something out (change in mounting hardware even), I want my tank to stay under warranty.  They state 6 years of coverage, and I plan to use all 6 years then when it really is almost over, coat the last tank if it still the only option.  If they did any updating to hardware in the meantime, I'll have received it prior to coating.  Just my situation, I guess.  2007 S2R


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on October 03, 2011, 04:07:54 PM
I want my tank to stay under warranty.  They state 6 years of coverage, and I plan to use all 6 years then when it really is almost over, coat the last tank if it still the only option.  If they did any updating to hardware in the meantime, I'll have received it prior to coating.  Just my situation, I guess.  2007 S2R

So ounce a year you are going to take the pains of taking your bike in to get the tank changed for the next six years?  Coat it and forget about it. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on October 04, 2011, 03:30:38 AM
Yes, once a year (about) I plan to have it replaced.   I live 2 miles from the dealer and it involves one phone call then a 1hr visit. $0. Not really a pain in my case. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: JimmyTheDriver on October 14, 2011, 08:05:20 AM
2007 S4R

My third tank just arrived at the dealer.  Guess they do replace it more than once.  The shop agreed to let me come get the tank and leave my bike to coat it.  I just want to be done.

-Jimmy


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 14, 2011, 08:19:46 AM
They are letting you take the new tank home to coat before installign it?

That's a very cool thing to do.  Who is the dealer?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on October 14, 2011, 09:00:04 AM
They are letting you take the new tank home to coat before installign it?

That's a very cool thing to do.  Who is the dealer?

My dealer just let me take the tank. I think he knew I was fed up with his B.S.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: TAftonomos on October 14, 2011, 11:54:05 AM
dealer STILL has my bike, tank isn't here yet.  So pissed I could have been riding the last 7 weeks and enjoying the weather.

No MTS1200 purchase from those guys....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 14, 2011, 01:18:03 PM
They are letting you take the new tank home to coat before installign it?

That's a very cool thing to do.  Who is the dealer?

Colemans in Woodbridge said they were ok with me doing this with the tank they've ordered for me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on October 14, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
Mine on backorder too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on October 14, 2011, 04:53:25 PM
What am I missing here?  Doesn't any one see anything wrong with wasting Ducati tanks five or six times instead of getting one tank and coating it.  Being done with it.  Maybe I am thinking backwards but why waste the tanks even if it is easy and no problem.  Twelve hundred dollars a tank time five is how much??  I got a replacement, coated it and forgot about it.  Obviously Ducati screwed up but why keep making them pay.  A bit of loyalty might be in order?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 14, 2011, 05:04:35 PM
A bit of loyalty might be in order?

Good luck winning hearts with that sentiment in this thread. 

Besides, I really doubt that Ducati is coughing up the money for these tanks.  I'd imagine that they're sticking the cost to Acerbis.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on October 14, 2011, 05:36:12 PM
Loyalty?

I'm waiting to hear what happens when someone's coating job fails and wants a new tank from Ducati.

Besides, I paid a premium price for my Italian bike.  My relationship with Ducati is one of business.  I'm not married to the company.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 14, 2011, 05:47:01 PM
Besides, I really doubt that Ducati is coughing up the money for these tanks.  I'd imagine that they're sticking the cost to Acerbis.

Mostly correct, depending on Ducati's contract with Acerbis. Ducati still bears the cost of administration.

At least in the auto industry, manufacturers buy parts from suppliers based on a quality/failure rate. 10 failures/1000 units is very expensive, 20/1000 is premium. 50/1000 is an average. The lower the failure rate, the greater the cost. Then the manufacturer has a warranty agreement with the supplier which could be probably at best replacement cost and as little as 20%. All that is figured into the price of the part.

Sometimes this cost cutting thing gets absurd. I knew one case (no names) where a manufacturer saved $20 on a power steering pump on a very premium vehicle. When the pump seized, it threw the single belt, usually resulting in meltdown because the idiot owners continued to drive with the red light flashing and the displays going crazy. THAT was an expensive $20 savings. The power steering pump manufacturer did not buy new engines.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 14, 2011, 06:40:45 PM
What am I missing here?  Doesn't any one see anything wrong with wasting Ducati tanks five or six times instead of getting one tank and coating it.  Being done with it.  Maybe I am thinking backwards but why waste the tanks even if it is easy and no problem.  Twelve hundred dollars a tank time five is how much??  I got a replacement, coated it and forgot about it.  Obviously Ducati screwed up but why keep making them pay.  A bit of loyalty might be in order?

I agree but not for loyalty reasons - for my own time-savings and enjoyment. I don't want the hassle of doing it more than once if there is a solution like me coating it.

The premium for an Italian bike is found in the limited production numbers, Italian styling, Brembo brakes, wonderful desmo motors, and watching them stick it to the big 4 on track worldwide. I didn't pay a premium for some mechanically impeccable contraption. There are other brands that deliver that, and they look like hell, generally.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 15, 2011, 02:13:31 AM
I didn't pay a premium for some mechanically impeccable contraption. There are other brands that deliver that, and they look like hell, generally.

Not all BMWs have been stone-like reliable. Just saying.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on October 15, 2011, 05:58:42 AM
Does anybody know if the 2011 Ducatis will have the same problem tanks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on October 15, 2011, 11:09:09 AM
Good luck winning hearts with that sentiment in this thread. 

Besides, I really doubt that Ducati is coughing up the money for these tanks.  I'd imagine that they're sticking the cost to Acerbis.

Winning hearts is a stretch of the imagination, I was thinking more about waste.  Five tanks is a waste no matter who pays for it.    And yea, I quess I am loyal to Ducati with a lot of pride.  I like my bike and everything that goes with it and would not trade for two of anything else even with a bad tank!   ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Airborne on October 15, 2011, 01:09:14 PM
Just got my first tank replacement today. My swelling was mostly pushing against the ignition, not so much swelling to the side. Service person at the dealership took some pictures of my bike, ordered my tank and one week later it was in. I dropped it off today and got it back in a few hours. Very painless process. Dealer was trebour motorcycles in NJ.

I am now going to store it for the winter. Does anyone have any suggestions? Drain the tank? Leave the fuel low? Add startron? Leave the gas cap cracked open?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 15, 2011, 01:37:45 PM
Very painless process. Dealer was trebour motorcycles in NJ.

I am now going to store it for the winter. Does anyone have any suggestions? Drain the tank? Leave the fuel low? Add startron? Leave the gas cap cracked open?

Mentioned this to "thought" the other day; if you live near Trebor, close by is my old source of 260 GT. It contains all sorts of goodness, is stabilized and contains zero ethanol. Probably $8.50/Gal. by now. http://www.sunocoinc.com/Site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/New+Jersey.htm (http://www.sunocoinc.com/Site/Consumer/RaceFuels/260GT100Locations/New+Jersey.htm)

Others will have different opinions, but I always filled my tanks with stabilized or racing fuel before storing in November and they all (30+) started right up in April with no issues. Full tanks avoid most condensation obviously. If you do this, just fill and take a good ride to work it through the fuel system, and then top up when you get back. (Did this always with two collector cars I store as well; so far, so good.)

BTW, I lived 15 miles west of Trebor for 35 years and parked my bikes when I could no longer stand the cold and dragged them out on the first warmish day after the first street sweepers in April or May.

I presume you had your oil changed recently? You have a dry garage?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on October 15, 2011, 07:42:28 PM
Winning hearts is a stretch of the imagination, I was thinking more about waste.  Five tanks is a waste no matter who pays for it.    And yea, I quess I am loyal to Ducati with a lot of pride.  I like my bike and everything that goes with it and would not trade for two of anything else even with a bad tank!   ;D

You need to test ride more bikes, and own a few other manufacturer's bikes.  For the prices Ducati asks for their bikes, there are a lot of other manufacturers products that don't have major parts failing on them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rac3r on October 16, 2011, 07:37:02 AM
Every manufacturer has their own problems


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on October 16, 2011, 07:47:12 AM
Every manufacturer has their own problems

True, but it is somewhat ironic that my HD had almost zero issues after flogging it for a number of years, while my S4RS has had quite a few issues that have caused me to question it as a daily rider.

Harleys earned the reputation as unreliable.  That reputation was so deserved that reputation that it persists years after it became false.

Ducati seems to get a pass in that department because they look and sound so beautiful and they scream down the road so well (when they aren't acting up that is).

If only my Ducati was half as reliable as my HD.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 16, 2011, 09:20:01 AM
The fact you allege you "flog" an H-D is laughable


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on October 16, 2011, 10:35:12 AM
The fact you allege you "flog" an H-D is laughable

Be that as it may.  My HD always started when I went for a ride, it always ran well, the tank never expanded, and it never burst into flames while on the highway.

Wish I could say the same for my Ducati, but I can't.

Alot of people like to talk smack about HD.  That's okay.  I know better.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 16, 2011, 11:15:21 AM
we've got 'em in our garage.   physically impossible to flog one no matter how you hard you might try.   its like school bus racing, might be fun but it ain't fast even if you "push it".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on October 16, 2011, 11:29:25 AM
If you say you can't do it, I believe you.   :-*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 16, 2011, 11:33:04 AM
leveraging up the back tire because of floor boards is a one-time experience


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: iRam on October 16, 2011, 04:23:26 PM
 [popcorn]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on October 16, 2011, 05:32:33 PM
Well, since we've gone clear off the reservation, I'll run point.

Why do some of the members in this thread willingly 'accept' that Ducati's gas tank resolution is 'acceptable'?  That's the 'free pass' NorDog is talking about.  If we had frames that bent occasionally but did not cause injury that's kind of in the same category.  Yes, it's a stretch but in either case we can't find an affordable alternative to either one if we'd like it permanently fixed.

And the coated tanks may or may not last the life of the tank itself.  And paid for by the owners, not the Company.  BS.  If Ford sold cars with leaky or expanding gas tanks, they'd be crucified on the evening news.

So we're stuck with these bikes.  Or sell them.  Me?  I'm on the bubble.  I would have to pony up considerable money for a front end revision, rear shock and some permanent tank fix (jv, I know you have quite a total tied up in your bikes).  The reason I'm on the bubble of selling or keeping is that I could get into a different bike that isn't something I have to 'improve upon': (clutch slave, proper gearing, reasonably sorted suspension, better ergos).  That's option 1, or do I keep complaining as I wade through the accessories I'd need on the S2R.

I HATE the fact that The S2R is all but unrideable in town and needs to get over 4500 just to get a usable bike when commuting.  However once you're in the heat of the midrange it's magic.  Revs great all the way up to its ceiling.  The transition areas between docile use and whipping it like a dog that get me agitated.  Compounding this in my mind is that I paid 17k for a BMW Megamoto, 113hp, 85 ft/lbs.  Stock.  It's a joy each.  And.  Every time I ride it.  Did I say stock?  Yes, I did.  My S2R won't get those numbers, but I'd be goddam close money-wise to get it where I'd like it to be.  So who's the fool?  I am because I foolishly think that a bunch of random accessories might make my S2R 'better' somehow.  I'm a jackarse I know.

NorDog in my mind is right, despite the HD analogy.  We want a bike to ride, sometimes to putz with.  If the putzing eclipses the riding, the bike is an albatross.  Since my bike is 50/50, it's toss up.  But knowing Ducati isn't behind us consumers, well that's unfortunate at best and puts me off.  I don't know what HD's position is on customer service but I've had better service with other manufacturers.  Ones that don't take August off for vacation either.

Certainly other companies have their shortcomings.  I've owned KTM, BMW, Honda, Yamaha and others with their own characteristics, gearing exhaust or other. 

The fact that we're over one hundred and twenty pages into this thread and topic tells me a few people are pissed about the company yet are divided about what to do with a bike they might actually enjoy.

Now how do we remedy the situation at hand, F the company and get back to riding the MFers? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on October 16, 2011, 07:01:39 PM
Be that as it may.  My HD always started when I went for a ride, it always ran well, the tank never expanded, and it never burst into flames while on the highway.

Wish I could say the same for my Ducati, but I can't.

Alot of people like to talk smack about HD.  That's okay.  I know better.
+1 friend. 

Hillbillypolack, you hit the nail on the head.  I love my Ducs but after servicing my HD (major service that is), I was out the door for $413.  Tranny, engine fluids, new spark plugs and a shit ton of work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 16, 2011, 07:10:39 PM
Nissan has had a similar problem with gas tanks on the xterra and other models.

No outrage.  Plenty of problems reported tho.

Thus tank issue is simply not analagous to your frame example.  There is a legal standard for what qualifies as a dangerous defect and until someone gets hurt it doesn't look like it will change much.

If applied right any epoxy coating should last a very long time.  Caswell says it has done 20 years in simulated tests.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on October 16, 2011, 07:29:55 PM
Nissan has had a similar problem with gas tanks on the xterra and other models.

No outrage.  Plenty of problems reported tho.

Thus tank issue is simply not analagous to your frame example.  There is a legal standard for what qualifies as a dangerous defect and until someone gets hurt it doesn't look like it will change much.

If applied right any epoxy coating should last a very long time.  Caswell says it has done 20 years in simulated tests.

For one particular instance.  The tanks.

However, I think for many of us who have owned Ducatis for several years over several models, this is the straw that is breaking the camel's back.

We've endured popping voltage regulators during the mid 90s, leaving us stranded.  We've tolerated spotty availability of 'performance parts' that sometimes did what they advertised, sometimes just making the bike cold blooded or less than reliable.  We've personally sought out sturdier aftermarket clutch slaves because Ducati couldn't see engineering one 2mm bigger that wasn't prone to locking up the bike at a stop light. . or to mellow out the GD clutch pull.  Now it's the tanks, and with that I wonder how much more effort and money do I tolerate putting into this bike.  Or do I pitch it and start afresh with another bike?  Like I said above, I'm 50/50-undecided.

But make no mistake this is my final Ducati.  Period.  And the tragedy of it is that I'm lucky enough (knock wood) to be in a demographic which can afford and partially enhance these bikes.  Instead, I'm moving on from Italian bikes for my next ride and into something more sorted.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: extra330 on October 17, 2011, 05:23:32 AM
For one particular instance.  The tanks.

However, I think for many of us who have owned Ducatis for several years over several models, this is the straw that is breaking the camel's back.

<snip>
 do I pitch it and start afresh with another bike?  Like I said above, I'm 50/50-undecided.


Yep, I'm right there with you man. I've been a loyal Ducati owner since 97 when I bought my first duc, a 900SSSP. After the 900 there was the ST4S which was a great machine although as the miles piled on it was clear that she wasn't a good fit for me. The reach for the bars was just a tad too far. In 07 I once again stepped to the plate and bought my first Monster, an S4RS. Three fuel tanks later I'm really thinking about selling her and jumping off the Ducati train ride. There may be a BMW R1200S in my furture. If I'm lucky I'll be able to unload the S4RS and have enough cash for the BMW without coming out of pocket... 

I've been saying this to myself for a couple of months now. The problem is the S4RS is just so much effin fun to ride I think I'll have a hard time actually going through with my so called escape plan. [laugh]

cheers
Mike



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on October 17, 2011, 05:31:35 AM
You need to test ride more bikes, and own a few other manufacturer's bikes.  For the prices Ducati asks for their bikes, there are a lot of other manufacturers products that don't have major parts failing on them.

Been their, done that.  That is why even with a bad tank (which is fixed) HD's, Trumps, Rice, to me nothing feels like my S4Rs.  Comparing HD's to a Duc is not viable even in reliability.  The tank problem was no problem and I fail to see why everyone is making it a problem.  Get a new replacement, coat it and ride.  If you want to get a different bike,  going through the list of troubles you have had with your Duc is not necessary,  just get out of it. I do wish I had my HD back, but I cannot for the life of me find a reason to campare the two. :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 17, 2011, 06:24:11 AM
For one particular instance.  The tanks.

However, I think for many of us who have owned Ducatis for several years over several models, this is the straw that is breaking the camel's back.

....
But make no mistake this is my final Ducati.  Period.  And the tragedy of it is that I'm lucky enough (knock wood) to be in a demographic which can afford and partially enhance these bikes.  Instead, I'm moving on from Italian bikes for my next ride and into something more sorted.

My first ducati was a Bronco...  a beautiful little 120cc pushrod bike with a jellymold tank.  It was well used when I got it, but something about it just sparked my love for bikes.  Of course, I was 17 ..

My next bike was a Honda Nighthawk and frankly, it left me wanting a lot.  It ran perfectly, but I couldn't help feeling like I was driving somehting with the soul of a vacuum cleaner. 

Next bike was a '62 HD xl.  I bought it partly disassembled and put it back together.  Even though it ran like shit, it had a lot more character than the Honda.

I got rid of that and bought a Ducati GTL.  It was a mistake, but I was still loving the Ducati name.  The next bike was a Pantah 500.  I still remember the feel of it and it's partly why I love Ducatis to this day.  It wasn't perfect, there was a lot wrong with the finish, peeling off etc. 

Next bike was a 900SS.  I had no problems with mine.  I know others did, but I can't say it affected me.

Since that time, I've accumulated another 12 Ducatis (if you count the Cagiva Ducatis, Alazzura and Elefants).  I still have 10 of them. 

Ducati has 1100 people worldwide and they've managed to survive and win, win, win in racing, and still have time to make beautiful bikes that are copied by our friends in Japan.  Yes, the Hondas and BMWs are good bikes, but they have problems too despite being HUGE companies with HUGE factories.  I remember reading that Honda makes around 300,000 bikes per year, dwarfing Ducati.  Moreover, Ducati only makes bikes, period.   None of the Japanese zaibatsus can say that.  A few european companies can, but none that are widely sold in the states.  That is something that impresses me. 

BMW riders have had MASSIVE problems with the drive shaft imploding on them. 

Sure the tanks deformed, but Ducati has been replacing them almost from the beginning (well, since it was recognized as a real problem.).  I think that shows a real commitment to owners.  I sincerely believe they simply do not have the resources to develop wholly new, road-legal, worldwide-legal tanks for these bikes.  However, they did give us a solution which will work:  Get a new tank, and coat it.  They can't do it, but we can. 

You can spend $200 to have the dealer do it, or you can spend $50 to do it yourself.  Either way, that is peanuts compared to what you will spend on a triple or a set of wheels or rearsets. 

The coating will last.  If you are nervouse about it lasting, then re-coat the tank again after a few years.  It will outlast your time on this planet.

And if you are moving on to another brand, well.. Good luck.  My buddy who rides an R1150 has had his drive shaft and bevels replaced twice now.  He wants to dump it and buy a Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on October 17, 2011, 06:47:56 AM
I do wish I had my HD back, but I cannot for the life of me find a reason to campare the two. :o
the only reason to compare the two is "lifestyle" IMO.  Sadly the bashing here is all about HD's but when you compare maintenance costs there is a clear winner.  Oh, and mine has a metal tank - including both Ducs.  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 17, 2011, 06:56:01 AM
And consider, before selling/trading an S4RS what your new payments would be... Motowheels has a sale on carbon tanks and ETI makes Kevlar tanks. or simply coat it. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on October 17, 2011, 07:11:01 AM
FTR, I have no intention of this being my last Ducati.  Despite the problems I love my S4RS.  I just take issue with the idea that after shelling out so much money I owe allegiance or loyalty to the brand.  I'm an old school HD rider from way back.  If I took that attitude I would never have bought a Ducati to begin with.

In my world, my bike needs to be loyal to me; not me to a company brand.

In any event, I will not buy another Ducati as my sole bike/daily rider.  If the day comes I'll be glad to buy one for weekend runs and track days (if I ever get around to doing another track day).

Also FTR, the expanding tank is only one issue with Ducatis.  I'm still scratching my head over mounting the volt-reg under the seat.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 17, 2011, 07:17:25 AM

 [thumbsup]

Well put, ducatiz!

I dearly wish hillbillypolack would dump his Ducati and buy an F800ST. Then he would really be able to satisfy his recreational moaning on the F-Series Forum.  ;) http://f800riders.org/forum/forum.php (http://f800riders.org/forum/forum.php) That is..., if the ABS didn't kill him first! ;) He'd also be able to experience another level in corporate stonewalling, denial, arrogance, and a very limited "good will" policy.

Incidentally, compare a 796 @ $9,995 to an F800ST @ ~ $13,500. Both need a shock and risers. These days BMW has a lot of nerve to ask that premium for a propeller and mainly cheaper components. +$3,500 for heated grips and a 1/2 fairing and a torture seat, drive belt ($$$) and a buzzy mill. Servicing costs and not much cheaper either. I actually seriously considered one until I rode it. (Fuel pump failures due to ethanol, no extra charge.) Then I rode a 696 and ordered a 796 as you're aware. Massive difference in intuitive handling and..., the 796 chassis is just sooo composed at all times. Etc., etc., etc...

BTW, you omitted the fuel surging issue on all the R1150's which to this day BMW declares doesn't exist.

Most people who've had a few know why they prefer Ducatis.

Regards!

P.S. Sorry you never had a 600 SL. The paint and finish by then were as good as the 900 SS for $250 more which I also owned. You know which one I preferred to ride!

William (Since 1965, 22 BMW's, 9 Ducatis, 1 Triumph, and more Maico's, Montessa's et al. than I can recall... ;))


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on October 17, 2011, 07:18:22 AM
shit, my girlfriends suzuki is only what, 5 years old? has only 4000 miles on it? the entire charging system just blew on it. My duc is just as old, has twice the mileage, and (knock on wood) has had ZERO issues. maybe those maintenance costs pay off?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on October 17, 2011, 09:01:57 AM
I have a 06 M620 with 21k on it. Cliff's BMW / Ducati in CT took photos a year ago and then when I called to follow up to see if Ducati would replace my tank they said they no longer carry Ducati :(

I then emailed Rockwell in NY this spring to see if they would send photos but I never heard back. I should have called.

Is there any chance that I could get a replacement at this point and does anyone have any ideas I how to get a dealer to help me out and send photos in?

I had kind of just decided I was going to live with it but figured I would throw a post up to see if I had any other options.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on October 17, 2011, 09:14:29 AM
Comparing HD's to a Duc is not viable even in reliability.

That's because these days HD kicks the ever living crap out of Ducati for reliability.

Sure the tanks deformed, but Ducati has been replacing them almost from the beginning (well, since it was recognized as a real problem.).  I think that shows a real commitment to owners.  I sincerely believe they simply do not have the resources to develop wholly new, road-legal, worldwide-legal tanks for these bikes.  However, they did give us a solution which will work:  Get a new tank, and coat it.  They can't do it, but we can.

While it would cost them extra to switch tanks on the currently-existing model(s), it would cost them virtually nothing to go with, say, metal on future designs, or something else which doesn't have these problems.  We'll see how "committed" to owners they are at that time.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 17, 2011, 09:18:33 AM
While it would cost them extra to switch tanks on the currently-existing model(s), it would cost them virtually nothing to go with, say, metal on future designs, or something else which doesn't have these problems.  We'll see how "committed" to owners they are at that time.

It's a good question, but I don't think that's the direction they will go in.  First off, several of the models (MTS) have a tank that can't easily be made with metal.

Secondly, the cost per tank of rotomolded vs metal is just no contest.  There is nothing wrong with a plastic tank in concept, they just need to make sure the material is compatible with the fuel whereever they sell bikes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: JimmyTheDriver on October 17, 2011, 09:35:05 AM
They are letting you take the new tank home to coat before installign it?

That's a very cool thing to do.  Who is the dealer?

As long as I leave the bike, they have stated I can take the tank.  Seems fair.

Coleman Powersports in Falls Church, VA.  I am a Duc Pond guy, but I live down the street from them and they have been nothing but great with this issue.

-Jim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 17, 2011, 10:12:21 AM
That's because these days HD kicks the ever living crap out of Ducati for reliability.

While it would cost them extra to switch tanks on the currently-existing model(s), it would cost them virtually nothing to go with, say, metal on future designs, or something else which doesn't have these problems.  We'll see how "committed" to owners they are at that time.

And switch to a heavier steel tank? no thanks, the old bikes came with 'em & they weigh a whole lot. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on October 17, 2011, 10:17:27 AM
And switch to a heavier steel tank? no thanks, the old bikes came with 'em & they weigh a whole lot. 


I thought the plastic tanks actualy weigh more.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 17, 2011, 10:20:47 AM
no, from my information (partly based on the heavy steel tanks in my garage, the lighter plastic ones in the shop when i was there, and the desmosedici 'design' video):

weight heirarchy is steel--plastic--aluminum--carbon/kevlar

price heirarchy is plastic--steel--carbon/kevlar/aluminum


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 17, 2011, 10:22:04 AM


I thought the plastic tanks actualy weigh more.

one thing that can screw up the analysis is whether or not the tank is fuel injected or carbed - a steel tank for a carbed bike, which has only the hose-barbs on the bottom will look appealing when compared to a plastic or steel tank with all of the internal appliances - fuel pump, filter, hoses, etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on October 17, 2011, 10:33:31 AM
I have a 06 M620 with 21k on it. Cliff's BMW / Ducati in CT took photos a year ago and then when I called to follow up to see if Ducati would replace my tank they said they no longer carry Ducati :(

I then emailed Rockwell in NY this spring to see if they would send photos but I never heard back. I should have called.

Is there any chance that I could get a replacement at this point and does anyone have any ideas I how to get a dealer to help me out and send photos in?

I had kind of just decided I was going to live with it but figured I would throw a post up to see if I had any other options.



Go see Nick at Rockwell's in person.  Bring your bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on October 17, 2011, 04:26:06 PM
 +1, Rockwell replaced my tank in 2 weeks from the time they snapped the pics.  Bring the bike there and speak to nick.  They also coat the tanks there. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on October 18, 2011, 05:45:22 AM
+2 on Rockwell.  I was the test monkey for them on the Caswell.  Replacement tank still looking good w/out any swelling.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 18, 2011, 06:55:34 AM
+2 on Rockwell.  I was the test monkey for them on the Caswell.  Replacement tank still looking good w/out any swelling.

how long ago was that?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 18, 2011, 07:33:26 AM
+1 on interested in how long its been holding up - that's good news, to be sure.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GLantern on October 18, 2011, 07:59:13 AM
+2 on Rockwell.  I was the test monkey for them on the Caswell.  Replacement tank still looking good w/out any swelling.

Rockwell is my plan this winter.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on October 18, 2011, 12:48:07 PM
I could use some advice from the collected wisdom.

My dealer called last week to let me know that my replacement tank ('06 S2R1K) had finally arrived (8-week wait).  I asked if they could 1) coat it for me, or 2) send it out to a recommended third-party vendor for coating, or 3) allow me to coat it myself, before they install it and fill the tank with fuel.  The answer that came back was "no" to options 1 & 3, and "yes" to option 2 (but only if I find/identify the coating vendor & pay for S&H both ways, and forfeit any future warranty claims on the new tank for swelling or anything else, because DNA does not authorize coating as an approved process).  The dealer indicated that they are required to fill the tank with fuel and run the bike before they can get paid by DNA for the warranty work.

With the above in mind, I see the following approaches available to me:

A) Have the dealer install the new tank and leave it uncoated, thus risking another episode of tank swelling but preserving my ability to get future warranty tank work/free replacements.  As I read the proposed settlement, based on the fact that my bike is nearing the age limit for which free replacement would be guaranteed, and that it took 3+ years for swelling to first appear on mine, I think it's unlikely that I'd be eligible for another free replacement unless it occurs purely on the basis of goodwill after the age limit has been exceeded.

B) Have the dealer send it out for coating, and accept the loss of future warranty coverage.  If I go this route, I could use some recommendations.

C) Have the dealer install the new tank, then remove and coat it myself.  The biggest downside I can think of to this approach is that I suspect that coating will have a higher probability of success if performed on a new tank as opposed to one that's already been exposed to fuel.  Plus I'd prefer not to do this job myself if I don't have to.

Suggestions?

Dave


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 18, 2011, 12:59:41 PM
i would want to know more about why they believe coating would forfeit future warranty claims - common sense & i disagree that it would forfeit future warranty claims for swelling - such an occurrence would show the coating was ineffective, only forfeiting warranty where it could be shown that the coating was the cause of the swelling.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 18, 2011, 01:04:02 PM
You've altered the tank from its original designed state.  Any manufacturer could/would deny a warranty claim on an item that you have altered.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on October 18, 2011, 01:32:36 PM
Exactly.  My dealer says DNA has told them that coating the tank voids the warranty for tank-related issues.

Dave

You've altered the tank from its original designed state.  Any manufacturer could/would deny a warranty claim on an item that you have altered.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 18, 2011, 01:57:41 PM
I can make the legal argument that coating a tank is no different from painting a car especially when it involves a well known problem with the tank material.  The manufacturer must prove - not just assert- that the modification is the CAUSE of the failure.  No coating would cause this failure.

I know some good dealers but none of them know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to warranty laws.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on October 18, 2011, 01:58:44 PM
Exactly.  My dealer says DNA has told them that coating the tank voids the warranty for tank-related issues.

Dave


Don't tell them. I've never heard of them checking. All they do is a exterior visual inspection for the warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on October 18, 2011, 02:01:22 PM
one thing that can screw up the analysis is whether or not the tank is fuel injected or carbed - a steel tank for a carbed bike, which has only the hose-barbs on the bottom will look appealing when compared to a plastic or steel tank with all of the internal appliances - fuel pump, filter, hoses, etc.

All that aside I believe the plastic tanks themselves weigh more than the steel.  ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 18, 2011, 02:02:36 PM
All that aside I believe the plastic tanks themselves weigh more than the steel.  ;)

Plastic tanks are about 2/3rds the weight of the metal ones
.

However since they have less capacity they weigh about the same per l


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 18, 2011, 02:06:13 PM
I can make the legal argument that coating a tank is no different from painting a car especially when it involves a well known problem with the tank material.  The manufacturer must prove - not just assert- that the modification is the CAUSE of the failure.  No coating would cause this failure.

I know some good dealers but none of them know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to warranty laws.



+1.   Magnusson-Moss would allow you to coat it and unless the coating causes the failure, your warranty is intact.

Warranty Law is something many people misunderstand.  The most common example is whether taking your bike to be serviced by a non-dealer will invalidate your warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on October 18, 2011, 02:28:46 PM
OK.  So it sounds like you would recommend choice "B" (have the dealer send it out for coating before installing/filling it with fuel) or "C" (have the dealer install/fuel the new tank, then remove/clean/coat it myself).  Am I correct in believing that there's a real benefit to coating it before it's ever been filled with fuel?

Dave

I can make the legal argument that coating a tank is no different from painting a car especially when it involves a well known problem with the tank material.  The manufacturer must prove - not just assert- that the modification is the CAUSE of the failure.  No coating would cause this failure.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 18, 2011, 02:35:47 PM
Absolutely.  Once it has gas on it you've got to cleanse the gas and let it completely dry. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 18, 2011, 02:50:28 PM
I would do option "B".   If it swells, then the coating failed to protect it from swelling --> The coating didn't cause the swelling, and warranty is intact. Dealer will not examine interior of tank prior to filing warranty claim anyhow, but if they did, they would be wrong to deny your warranty claim based on having the tank coated. Whether you would want to fight them about it is up to you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on October 18, 2011, 09:41:32 PM
+1.   Magnusson-Moss would allow you to coat it and unless the coating causes the failure, your warranty is intact.

Warranty Law is something many people misunderstand.  The most common example is whether taking your bike to be serviced by a non-dealer will invalidate your warranty.

It is true that the manufacturer would need to prove the modification caused the failure.  It is also true you could be looking at a court battle.  Then again, if the coating fails and causes damage to the fuel system you own it.  This may be why many dealers shy away from doing it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2011, 02:47:37 AM
It is true that the manufacturer would need to prove the modification caused the failure.  It is also true you could be looking at a court battle.  Then again, if the coating fails and causes damage to the fuel system you own it.  This may be why many dealers shy away from doing it.

I believe we were referring to a circumstance of the coating merely not working to prevent tank expansion.

If the coating acctually caused some damage the absolutely its not going to be warranteed.

Not a lot of warranty kickbacks end up in court because the warranty act allows for damages on top of attorney costs to be awarded.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 05:09:36 AM
^^ what he said. If it causes issues, you definitely on the hook, but if it just doesn't work, you'd be ok.  atty costs is a nice settlement catalyst to be sure


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
^^ what he said. If it causes issues, you definitely on the hook, but if it just doesn't work, you'd be ok.  atty costs is a nice settlement catalyst to be sure

just look at the current lawsuit and how it settled so quickly...  [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 06:19:15 AM
i believe its "a good thing", re: settlements - it saves everybody money overall - less attorneys fees, less court fees/infrastructure required, less total expended for a positive net result.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2011, 06:53:35 AM
i believe its "a good thing", re: settlements - it saves everybody money overall - less attorneys fees, less court fees/infrastructure required, less total expended for a positive net result.

http://www.classactionwatch.org/ (http://www.classactionwatch.org/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 07:19:14 AM
not class actions!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2011, 08:36:20 AM
not class actions!

well, when it comes to warranty actions, the vast majority are.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 08:59:21 AM
true dat.   i drive a GM vehicle, i know how that goes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on October 19, 2011, 09:03:12 AM
And switch to a heavier steel tank? no thanks, the old bikes came with 'em & they weigh a whole lot. 

I'd rather have a bit more weight and a bit less "you might get stranded or killed".  And the weight difference is something like 4-7 lbs.  Not exactly significant.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 09:25:24 AM
4-7 lbs up top? I'd call that significant for "up top" weight.    .... "stranded or killed"  ...[roll]... reductio ad absurdum.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on October 19, 2011, 11:28:26 AM
4-7 lbs up top? I'd call that significant for "up top" weight.    .... "stranded or killed"  ...[roll]... reductio ad absurdum.

If you're charging that he has employed a rational fallacy, I think you mean "false dichotomy".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 11:31:41 AM
only that a swelling tank could get you "killed" was taking something to such an extreme as to be absurd.   next minute someone else will chime in by accusing another of invading poland. (a la Godwin's law)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on October 19, 2011, 01:43:28 PM
only that a swelling tank could get you "killed" was taking something to such an extreme as to be absurd.   next minute someone else will chime in by accusing another of invading poland. (a la Godwin's law)

I don't know, I've heard some of the tanks leak at the pump flange.

If mine was leaking when the voltage regulator caught fire there's no tellin' what would have happened to me.

Basically, it's not unreasonable to think that having a fuel fire in you crotch/ass area while lane splitting rush hour LA traffic on the highway might be a deadly experience.

Also, generally, as a logical device, the reductio ad absurdum actually proves the point to be made by showing the contrary to be impossible.  So, that's why I thought you were referring to "logic".  I would have understood better if you had just said, "Dude, that's absurd!"  But then, I can be obtuse.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 02:00:06 PM
Never saw a leaky tank flange while working at the dealership, not that it could happen, but didn't see one once. Nor did any of the other guys while I was there


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2011, 02:23:20 PM
I have video of a dozen bikes with leaky flanges.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 19, 2011, 03:41:56 PM
interesting.   i've seen leaky flanges unrelated to tank expansion (bad {misshapen}o-rings, torn o-rings, dried-out/rotten o-rings), but not on any of the warranty-for-swelling tanks while i was at AMS, and we did a TON of them.   Tons of 848's, Monsters, and Sport Classics - primarily ones that had been sitting quite a while. (several Sport 1000's with almost no miles on them stored primarily for looking at - but with gas in the tank... a plan i could not understand whatsoever)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 19, 2011, 05:35:26 PM
several Sport 1000's with almost no miles on them stored primarily for looking at - but with gas in the tank... a plan i could not understand whatsoever

Ride one some time, then maybe you'll start to understand.   [cheeky]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on October 21, 2011, 07:31:03 AM
  [laugh]
Ive never seen this much "explaining away" for a defective tank.  We are true Duc whores who refuse to accept a truly shitty design.  Include all other manufacturers if you like. 
I expect my two ducs to be buried with me unless things change and ill ask the funeral director to flog my Hardly in honor of JV who believes it cant be done.   [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on October 21, 2011, 07:41:34 AM
Thanks for the feedback.  So now I could really use a good recommendation for a shop to do the Caswell coating.  I know there have been a few vendors mentioned in this and other threads, but I'm hoping specifically for a place in the eastern half of the U.S. to minimize shipping time and cost (I'm in Washington DC), a track record of having done this coating successfully, and obviously competitive pricing would be great too  :)

Any suggestions?

Dave

Absolutely.  Once it has gas on it you've got to cleanse the gas and let it completely dry. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 21, 2011, 01:37:16 PM
I'm in Washington DC,

Any suggestions?


Izaak wants to do it for you. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DesmoDad on October 24, 2011, 07:40:14 PM
I just had my tank replaced by Ducati (and the dealer, Erico Motorsports).  They confirmed that the ethanol is definitely the problem... Now, according the EM, I should drain the tank and use fuel stabilizer when I am running it... but there isn't a month that I don't ride, so really don't want to drain it for the winter.  My mechanic tells me that he has heard the new tank is supposed to be made of a different plastic and will not have the same problem.  Does anyone know the latest on the tank problem?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 24, 2011, 07:41:03 PM
Izaak wants to do it for you. 

what is "it"?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 24, 2011, 07:44:09 PM
I just had my tank replaced by Ducati (and the dealer, Erico Motorsports).  They confirmed that the ethanol is definitely the problem... Now, according the EM, I should drain the tank and use fuel stabilizer when I am running it... but there isn't a month that I don't ride, so really don't want to drain it for the winter.  My mechanic tells me that he has heard the new tank is supposed to be made of a different plastic and will not have the same problem.  Does anyone know the latest on the tank problem?

1.  Fuel stabilizer will only help minimally, if at all.  Stabil, startron, etc all help combust old E10 gas, they don't prevent ethanol from absorbing water.

2.  There is no new plastic, replacement tanks are all PA6 still.  My replacement tank was older than my original tank, going by the inspection date on the bottom.

3.  The latest is that the lawsuit produced a result that no one is really happy with except perhaps the attorneys who did it (and have been paid 800k for about 10 hours of work, having used most of my postings as a guide).  The settlement is pending acceptance by the court, so here is your chance to comment on it before it's final.  Scroll back a few pages to find the link or go to the sticky in this section.

4.  The only solution is to coat your tank.  Ducati can't do it for reasons unclear, possibly homologation issues.  I tried to get them to send a tank to 3M to test it, but no go, they are in defense mode now. :-/.  Lots of people using Caswell's coating with good results.  Tank prep is the key.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 24, 2011, 08:22:38 PM
1.  Fuel stabilizer will only help minimally, if at all.  Stabil, startron, etc all help combust old E10 gas, they don't prevent ethanol from absorbing water.

No experience with Startron but Sta-Bil and Sta-Bil Marine claim to remove water. You have data which refutes this? Sta-Bil has been at this for 75 years and has wide manufacturer approval.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 24, 2011, 08:29:38 PM
No experience with Startron but Sta-Bil and Sta-Bil Marine claim to remove water. You have data which refutes this? Sta-Bil has been at this for 75 years and has wide manufacturer approval.

You put it in your tank with the gas and then what?

It magically disappears?  If it removes the water, where does it go? 

According to the MSDS sheets for Stabil, Stabil Marine and Startron, they are all between 94 and 96 percent petroleum naphtha.  The other 4-6% is listed as inert "additive mixture" which does not have any special properties necessary to be listed on the MSDS.

What's frustrating is that all of the fuel stabilizers on the market employ naphtha or some alcohol as the primary ingredient.  2-propanol, butyl alcohol, isopropyl, etc.  Seems to me it's just adding more problematic stuff to the mix.  propanol is aggressively hygroscopic.

So it could be that 4-6% by volume is the magic ingredient, but I doubt it.  I bet if you bought pure petroleum naphtha and put it in your tank it would do the same job.







Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 25, 2011, 02:31:12 AM
what is "it"?

Why coat the tank of course.  Hey, while you're at it, want to do mine as well?   :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 25, 2011, 04:58:46 AM
Why coat the tank of course.  Hey, while you're at it, want to do mine as well?   :D

sure, at my standard billing rate!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on October 25, 2011, 08:12:33 AM
clearly the moisture magically evaporates away, forms a small cloud that travels intuitively to the nearest switchgrass field and rains upon it, thereby creating more crop to use for the production of ethanol!  While computers & other electronics have designed-obsolescence, the motor vehicle supplies market had to be more creative in manufacturing repeat business. Its like your dearest mechanic sprinkling sand in the middle of all your favorite turns. Gotta generate that business somehow when times are slow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on October 25, 2011, 10:06:46 AM
Anything to get them through the door. You might decide to spring for that termi ehaust while their taking pics of your tank  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on October 25, 2011, 02:55:54 PM
sure, at my standard billing rate!

A bag of chips?  Wait, that only works on Essex girls... 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 25, 2011, 03:04:24 PM
A bag of chips?  Wait, that only works on Essex girls... 

purple chips from the Borgata will do it


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 25, 2011, 06:48:25 PM
You put it in your tank with the gas and then what?

It magically disappears?  If it removes the water, where does it go? 

According to the MSDS sheets for Stabil, Stabil Marine and Startron, they are all between 94 and 96 percent petroleum naphtha.  The other 4-6% is listed as inert "additive mixture" which does not have any special properties necessary to be listed on the MSDS.

What's frustrating is that all of the fuel stabilizers on the market employ naphtha or some alcohol as the primary ingredient.  2-propanol, butyl alcohol, isopropyl, etc.  Seems to me it's just adding more problematic stuff to the mix.  propanol is aggressively hygroscopic.

So it could be that 4-6% by volume is the magic ingredient, but I doubt it.  I bet if you bought pure petroleum naphtha and put it in your tank it would do the same job.

ducatiz

No chemist here for sure. FAQ says it "bonds" which I take to mean "effectively inerts" H2O. See :

"Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL handle water?
A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding."

If the problem with PA6 tanks is not ethanol itself but H20, if the H20 is inerted, I gather the plastic could not then absorb it.

I guess I'll see eventually as I can't always find pure gas on the road. I currently have 15 Gals. of 93 stabilized pure gas in the garage though. If I ever need a tank, I'll just get my pal in Göttingen to send me a PEX tank via DHL and be done with it. I'm sure Donnie will cover the labor.

William


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 25, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
ducatiz

No chemist here for sure. FAQ says it "bonds" which I take to mean "effectively inerts" H2O. See :

"Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL handle water?
A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding."

what that's describing is simply a function of the naphtha, which does absorb some water.

check this out: http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additive_safe_with_e10_list.html (http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additive_safe_with_e10_list.html)

Quote
If the problem with PA6 tanks is not ethanol itself but H20, if the H20 is inerted, I gather the plastic could not then absorb it.

I guess I'll see eventually as I can't always find pure gas on the road. I currently have 15 Gals. of 93 stabilized pure gas in the garage though. If I ever need a tank, I'll just get my pal in Göttingen to send me a PEX tank via DHL and be done with it. I'm sure Donnie will cover the labor.

William

i don't know if i trust relying on an additive to take care of the water in the tank..  coat the tank.  be done with it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on October 26, 2011, 03:26:41 AM
http://mystarbrite.com/startron/images/stories/catalog/93008-msds-10-7-06.pdf (http://mystarbrite.com/startron/images/stories/catalog/93008-msds-10-7-06.pdf)

Since  ah, ducatiz beat me to it


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on October 31, 2011, 10:12:22 AM
4-7 lbs up top? I'd call that significant for "up top" weight.    .... "stranded or killed"  ...[roll]... reductio ad absurdum.

So if 4-7 pounds up top is significant, then I guess there must be a huge number of japanese sportbikes and various sport-tourers with severe problems, seeing as they're carrying far more than that in additional weight up top.   [laugh]

I don't know, I've heard some of the tanks leak at the pump flange.

Mine did.  There was a steady drip of fuel onto the rear exhaust header.  Had to take it in twice for that problem.

As confirmed by the dealership, it was due to tank expansion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on October 31, 2011, 10:13:42 AM
No experience with Startron but Sta-Bil and Sta-Bil Marine claim to remove water. You have data which refutes this? Sta-Bil has been at this for 75 years and has wide manufacturer approval.

Quite simply, they're lying if they claim it removes water.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Scissors on October 31, 2011, 10:17:27 AM
ducatiz

No chemist here for sure. FAQ says it "bonds" which I take to mean "effectively inerts" H2O. See :

"Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL handle water?
A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding."

If the problem with PA6 tanks is not ethanol itself but H20, if the H20 is inerted, I gather the plastic could not then absorb it.

I guess I'll see eventually as I can't always find pure gas on the road. I currently have 15 Gals. of 93 stabilized pure gas in the garage though. If I ever need a tank, I'll just get my pal in Göttingen to send me a PEX tank via DHL and be done with it. I'm sure Donnie will cover the labor.

William

As Ducatiz pointed out, the naphtha absorbs water.  So does the gasoline.  So does the ethanol.  None of them chemically bond to the water molecules (which would create a new chemical), therefore none of them prevent the plastic from absorbing said water, even before phase separation occurs.

If allowing more water to be absorbed prior to phase separation were to help, then ethanol would actually help to prevent the problem, seeing as that's what it does.

This part makes me laugh:
"Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe."

Except for the part about bonding with the water molecules, that's exactly what ethanol does.  It allows the gasoline to absorb additional water prior to phase separation, and then it passes safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe, just as water does in pure gasoline.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: TAftonomos on November 02, 2011, 01:19:36 PM
Just did mine with the Caswell stuff.  I was planning on splitting it up, half for the monster and half for the SS.

I used the entire thing for the monster alone.  Glad I did....very little resin moving around in there.

72 deg out
Caswell stuff in the house last few days ~72
Tank was clean/dry with hot soapy water

Spent about 5 mins mixing it up, poured it in. 
I made a plexiglass cover for the pump.....glad I did this too as it let me see into the tank and get a eye on what was going on in there.

Turned tank over to drain after about 15-20 mins of twisting it around (slowly from front/back etc) and NONE came out.

Sitting in the sun now.  I'll let it cure for 2 days as it is kinda cold at night here (~45).  The directions say to
"place it in a warm spot 70-90 deg and let cure for 24-36 hours".....this place doesn't exist at the moment.  Not sure how long I should wait until I reinstall the pump/cap and fill her up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: TAftonomos on November 02, 2011, 07:12:42 PM
- Ran rigged up a heat gun I have for model A/C stuff to blow through the tank.  After about 2 hours the thing was hot to the touch, and the epoxy cured rock hard.  Tomorrow I will reinstall the pump, and the cap.  Hooray, 10 weeks after dropping the bike off I'll finally have it back, tank coated, and back on the road.  Just in time for winter  [laugh]

not going to happen again ducati....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on November 05, 2011, 11:55:34 AM
I'd like to give a shout-out to Corey for posting this information, which proved very valuable to me.  As I indicated in a previous post, my local dealer was not willing to do the coating or to give me the replacement tank to coat myself (in advance of installing and filling it with fuel), so I needed to find an established third-party vendor to whom the new tank could be shipped for coating.  Per the recommendation below, I called Lee Korczynski, Service Manager at European Motorcycles of Pittsburgh (724-934-4269).  Lee was great to work with - he gave me a firm fixed price over the phone for the coating (pretty much the same price as Corey indicated).  I had my dealer ship the tank to Lee, and total turnaround time door-to-door was less than a week.  Yesterday I rode out to my dealer, inspected the newly coated tank, waited while they installed it, and rode home.

Hopefully this will be the end of my swollen tank worries  :)

I can highly recommend European Motorcycles of Pittsburgh for getting the coating done, for anyone who can't or doesn't want to do it themselves.

Dave

...
After all the smoothness, I'm willing to reveal that the guys at European Motorcycles in Wexford, PA (just outside of Pittsburgh) treated me great through the whole thing. Lee, the service manager, is great to work with and doesn't give you any run-around BS. If you're in the area and are experiencing issues, I suggest you give them a visit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: pennyrobber on November 16, 2011, 03:16:02 PM
Just received a little notice in the mail today of a legal nature. Looks like there's a good chance my second swollen tank could be replaced.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 16, 2011, 08:35:30 PM
http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati%20-%20Motion%20for%20Preliminary%20Approval%20of%20Class%20Settlement.pdf (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati%20-%20Motion%20for%20Preliminary%20Approval%20of%20Class%20Settlement.pdf)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 17, 2011, 03:10:31 AM
http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati%20-%20Motion%20for%20Preliminary%20Approval%20of%20Class%20Settlement.pdf (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati%20-%20Motion%20for%20Preliminary%20Approval%20of%20Class%20Settlement.pdf)

Hadn't Izzy already posted that up?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hunduc on November 17, 2011, 04:57:25 AM
yes, same thing. just looks like they are sending them out now. i also got my notice yesterday.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDChase1981 on November 17, 2011, 04:58:36 AM
I got my notice yesterday, too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on November 17, 2011, 05:56:54 AM
Same here, not sure I like the remedies. Think I'll cross post this to the XR1200 forum, yeah I'm really lucky I have 2 bikes impacted by this ethanol crap, and send it to my legislators to counter the push for 15% Ethanol. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 17, 2011, 07:32:57 AM
Hadn't Izzy already posted that up?
[bang] [bang] [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2011, 09:00:57 AM
yup


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: scduc on November 17, 2011, 04:32:26 PM
I received mine yesterday as well. It still has not been settled, but most likely will be. We will have to play close attention to the time frame. Hopefully our dealers will work for us and allow us to get a new tank before the 6 year span runs out. Then we get 12months. After that we're on our own


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on November 17, 2011, 05:17:32 PM
I received mine yesterday as well. It still has not been settled, but most likely will be. We will have to play close attention to the time frame. Hopefully our dealers will work for us and allow us to get a new tank before the 6 year span runs out. Then we get 12months. After that we're on our own

Received mine today. If I read this right, with a 2011 I get only 18 months from the date the settlement is approved. Is that a correct reading? ducatiz?  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rockaduc on November 18, 2011, 05:48:23 AM
I haven't gotten my notice yet, bit if I have read the release correctly, since I have an '05 I have only 12 months from my last new tank (July '11) to check for swelling to get another one. Is this right?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jerryz on November 18, 2011, 06:35:08 AM
By the time the 6 year remedial period is up some enterprising companies will have produced aftermarket STEEL tanks for ducatis and made a good profit.....if they dont the resale value of Ducatis with Cheese plastic tanks will plummet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on November 18, 2011, 08:03:16 AM
Mark my words:

Ducati will make an aluminum tank, marketed as a racing accessory and get their money back.

 ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 18, 2011, 08:18:29 AM
You think people will buy an aluminum tank for $2k just to keep their Ducs?  I wouldn't personally


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on November 18, 2011, 08:45:52 AM
You think people will buy an aluminum tank for $2k just to keep their Ducs?  I wouldn't personally

Thousands of owners will have to choose between prematurely scrapping their bikes or to pay the ransom, keeping them rolling or being able to sell them at all.

CA CycleWorks already made an effort and someone else will see this opportunity and act upon it. Maybe it will be an aftermarket manufacturer, maybe it will be Ducati.

It's a theoretical universe of customers counting upwards to 40,000. I'd think someone will see that as a market?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on November 18, 2011, 08:51:54 AM
I'd have no problems doing that at the $1200-1500 mark for Alu or carbon/kevlar tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2011, 09:31:08 AM
This is what I posted on Ducati.net


The terms of the settlement allow for an extended warrant of 6 years from original purpose OR 18 months from the date of the settlement's acceptance by the court (whichever is longer).  The latter time frame has not started yet as the notice that has been received by everyone is a notice of a ~proposed~ settlement.  Terms of replacement or "fixes" of tanks has been laid out in the settlement and it depends on your model of bike.

On Monsters, for NON-cosmetic problems experienced, Ducati will employ several fixes to adjust the positioning of the tank.  Other bikes have similar procedures. (page 7-8)  For COSMETIC problems, Ducati will replace the tank subject to three conditions (1.  caused by tank expansion 2. more than 3mm of distortion and visible to a passerby and 3. no other greater damage such as from an accident). (page 9, para c) they will also replace DUCATI branded parts where they have been damaged by the expansion. (Page 9, para d)

The warranty will be transferable to subsequent owners, such as it is. (pg 9, p. e)

There is also a separate arbitration process IN the settlement for people who are unhappy with the settlement process.   (pg 9, p. f)

If you do not agree with the proposed settlement, you need to get write a letter to the court explaining your disagreement.  NOW.  you will have to opt out of the settlement.  You can request to remain part of the settlement if it is ratified, but also express unhappiness with it, but make sure to explain why.

My issues with the settlement

**The warranty time frame is too compact.  My 2005 S2R did not show deformation until around 3-4 years after I bought it.  I bought mine new in early 2006, and it wasn't until around the end of 2009 that I noticed a problem.

**The tank repositioning and adjustment may or may not be legit under DOT/NHTSA regs.  Since they are moving the tank around on the frame into a NEW location, it could possibly change the crash profile of the tank.  This is a small issue, but I find it interesting that they are adding hardware (SC) and repositioning tanks (Monster) without seeking approval or guidance from NHTSA on the matter.

**The tank leak issue is not really addressed.  They are offering to replace the O-ring. The oring isn't the problem, the distortion of the pump flange location is.  The pump base is metal, the flange where it connects is nylon.  When the nylon starts to swell, the inset-nuts which the pump connects to can move or loosen.  Also, the ROUND hole can become oblong or egg-shaped.  In my testing, the flange thickness changed significantly and slightly distorted in shape.

**The real problem with the tanks is the MATERIAL used.
  PA6/nylon absorbs water and possibly ethanol as well (once it is compromised by water.)  I would never expect Ducati to replace the tank with a wholly different material (such as remaking a steel or aluminum, DOT approved tank), but I believed before (2 years ago) and still believe that a barrier coating is the best fix.  The epoxy coatings work --period-- but I was informed by Ducati that in their testing the epoxy type changes some aspect of the tanks such that it could not be homologated.  Unfortunately, due to the lawsuit filed I could not continue direct contact, but there are other types of ethanol-proof coatings which may work and could be applied in a manner which doesn't affect homologation.  I would like to believe that the folks at Ducati are still trying to find a permanent fix which they can offer and endorse.


If you have a good tank or got a replacement tank, then you should get it coated.  The epoxy coatings work, there are too many people around now with 2+ year old tanks who run high mile bikes (multistrada board has more than a few).  The homologation issues are essentially academic and a bit silly, imho, because they are dealing with crash profiles of a gas tank on a motorcycle.  May I submit that if you're in a crash on a motorcycle that is ~strong enough to shatter a nylon tank~ that you probably won't mind being cooked a little bit if the 1:1000000 chance happens that your tank does in fact shatter?  Anything that is strong enough to shatter a 1/2" thick nylon tank is going to cream you anyhow, if you're not thrown off and land in a vat of pillows.

I originally considered filing a lawsuit but as I learned more I realized that Ducati does in fact have a good case against a lawsuit prevailing due to the legal issues.  The law says that a "defect" of this type is necessarily related to OPERATIONAL SAFETY and even though a few tanks have leaked, you have to remember the average judge or jury person isn't a biker and doesn't really get it.  "Leaky tank? OK but so what" they will say.  Fortunately we've not had any flaming fireballs, but the chance was always there.  Just bear in mind that it took 2 or 3 DEATHS in Toyotas to initiate a recall.  The mere reports of surging and such didn't cut it.   They needed a body count before moving on the matter.

And that is the problem here.  No bodycount (Thank God), but on the other hand, it really sucks that is what it takes to prove a defect that is related to operational safety.

Ducati essentially argued that the problem was aesthetic, and until someone's bike burns up WITH them on it, it will remain so.  The real downside to a flame situation is that the tank will proceed to melt -- destroying the evidence.

Get a new tank if you need one.  Write a letter to the court saying what bullshit it is that we need a body count to prove a material defect.  Coat your tank and be done with it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: seevtsaab on November 18, 2011, 11:02:33 AM
Well said.
I find the Monster relief rather unsatisfactory, they'll move the tank and replace your seat if necessary.
I had my seat redone, so fat chance.
I just put my bike away with a very tight tank to ignition switch, first time I've had an issue (05 620 @33K).
Tank has deformed a small amount in the past but so far returned to near normal (after extended periods of
no ethanol).
I'll probably look to coat my tank in the dead of winter, I'll be interested in particulars on doing, or getting that
done (I'm kind of a ruin-it-myself kind of guy). 70-90F temps are what i call 'riding weather.

Cheers all.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2011, 11:09:09 AM
FYI Kreem now makes a product called Protector which is a water-soluble coating for the OUTSIDE of the tank to use when applying the inside coating.

http://www.kreem.com/tankmask.html (http://www.kreem.com/tankmask.html)

you put it on, let it dry, then do the tank job. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 18, 2011, 12:19:51 PM
FYI Kreem now makes a product called Protector which is a water-soluble coating for the OUTSIDE of the tank to use when applying the inside coating.

http://www.kreem.com/tankmask.html (http://www.kreem.com/tankmask.html)

you put it on, let it dry, then do the tank job. 
There are a few companies that make liquid masking materials, 3m being one, that have been used in the auto body field for years.

People might be able to buy a small amount at their local body shop if they can't find the Kreem product.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 18, 2011, 12:26:25 PM
I'd have no problems doing that at the $1200-1500 mark for Alu or carbon/kevlar tank.
fat chance you'll find a carbon for that price.  My point is that many will have bikes worth 3 to 5k.  I don't see the reason to spend another 2 to 3k on a tank if the price of the bike is that low.....or the market is that low.  I'll keep my metal tanks until they fix this problem or move on sometime next year.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on November 18, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
shoot, motowheels is selling them for 1k for the 900ie in your garage.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 18, 2011, 01:15:08 PM
FYI Kreem now makes a product called Protector which is a water-soluble coating for the OUTSIDE of the tank to use when applying the inside coating.

http://www.kreem.com/tankmask.html (http://www.kreem.com/tankmask.html)

you put it on, let it dry, then do the tank job. 

just a fyi, revzilla sells it so it's pretty easy to come by.

http://www.revzilla.com/product/kreem-tank-mask (http://www.revzilla.com/product/kreem-tank-mask)

i'm going to have to coat my sf tank soon, the tank is at the dealer, i'm just waiting for the caswell to arrive.

i'll try this out... i was going to do the masking tape route before this but this might be a bit better.  i'll let you know how it works out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 18, 2011, 01:20:32 PM
just a fyi, revzilla sells it so it's pretty easy to come by.

http://www.revzilla.com/product/kreem-tank-mask (http://www.revzilla.com/product/kreem-tank-mask)

i'm going to have to coat my sf tank soon, the tank is at the dealer, i'm just waiting for the caswell to arrive.

i'll try this out... i was going to do the masking tape route before this but this might be a bit better.  i'll let you know how it works out.
I hope it works better than their tank coating. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 18, 2011, 05:20:53 PM
shoot, motowheels is selling them for 1k for the 900ie in your garage.
no need.  I stole that bike for the price and it's just right now.  I like metal.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 18, 2011, 05:28:20 PM
so, has anyone had a replacement tank for a bike out of the two year warranty replaced and had to pay labor?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 19, 2011, 05:14:59 AM
so, has anyone had a replacement tank for a bike out of the two year warranty replaced and had to pay labor?

no one has reported that to me


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on November 19, 2011, 07:37:16 AM
so, has anyone had a replacement tank for a bike out of the two year warranty replaced and had to pay labor?
My dealer told me that Ducati pays the labor.  I hate thieves
Report your dealer to Ducati North America.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 19, 2011, 08:40:47 AM
so, has anyone had a replacement tank for a bike out of the two year warranty replaced and had to pay labor?

The dealer that replaced my first tank, heck, they replaced the second tank now that I think about it, anyway...  The dealer told me that the tank would be replaced under the emissions warrantee, which ran for five years not two.

I have never been asked to pay for the labor.  If I had, I would say, "What part of warrantee do you not understand?"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 19, 2011, 08:45:53 AM
I think it's a case of "I'm new" here.  My friend asked me and I said "what in the hell are you talking about" because I've never heard of such a thing.  We will find out shortly and if so I'll let  you guys know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: d3vi@nt on November 19, 2011, 08:55:59 AM
I have some dimpling on my tank, probably not big enough to warrant replacement, unfortunately. However, my tank has moved to the point that it is rubbing against the ignition unit and I had to adjust the steering stops so the bars wouldn't hit the tank.

My question; has anyone had experience with moving the tank?  It was noted in the communication, that if the tank movement affected the seat latch, a new, shorter seat would be provided.  That says to me that any after-market seats may no longer fit and a person might be out several hundred dollars if that's the case.  I would also assume there would be few if any other seat options.  Will Ducati replace a non-OEM seat if it does not fit once the tank is moved?

It seems to me that simply moving the warped gas tank is a kludge, at best.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 19, 2011, 09:00:46 AM
I replaced two tanks on my old S2R and never heard anything about the seat.  If you can't open the latch and pull the tank up I can't see how they merit a seat being the fix.  That said I'm sure the replacement will be a stock seat. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: d3vi@nt on November 19, 2011, 10:59:06 AM
I replaced two tanks on my old S2R and never heard anything about the seat.  If you can't open the latch and pull the tank up I can't see how they merit a seat being the fix.  That said I'm sure the replacement will be a stock seat. 

Sorry, I didn't explain well. The fix to get the tank off the ignition is to move the tank backwards using different mounts. Apparently, after the tank is moved back, the seat may not latch properly. In that case, Ducati will replace the seat with a slightly shorter one.  So if a stock-sized seat no longer fits, it seems you're seat options are very limited and/or very expensive.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 19, 2011, 11:00:39 AM
Yeah, I'm done with plastic tanks.

Anyone want to buy an '07 S4RS?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hunduc on November 19, 2011, 03:41:26 PM
Yeah, I'm done with plastic tanks.

Anyone want to buy an '07 S4RS?

You know, this made me think a little bit. If there are lots of people going this route, then prices will drop for sure; especially if you really want to get rid of your bike. So a potential buyer can push down the price so much that it will be worth for him to buy a beater aluminum tank for 2k (or another plastic one from Ducati+Caswell) and still be inside the price he should pay for a good bike. So basically Ducati forces YOU to pay the price of a tank, this way or that... 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on November 19, 2011, 03:51:43 PM
So ya'll got the letter in the mail about the settlement, right?...
Modified seat latch and shorter seat! for my S2R1000...interesting and scary sounding.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 19, 2011, 05:49:28 PM
Remember when I was b!itching loudly about the settlement?  Now it seems people have 1) read the letter in the mail, and 2) come to the realization that it's a Band-Aid collection of parts for their baby.  Layer in the huge drop in resale (if you'd like to get out from under the bike) and MAYBE you start seeing why I was complaining so loudly.

Carry on.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 19, 2011, 05:55:22 PM
Yeah, I'm done with plastic tanks.

Anyone want to buy an '07 S4RS?
POS...

I'll give you $50. ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 19, 2011, 06:28:55 PM
am I missing something?  It's still a "proposed" settlement.  From what I read it still has to be approved by the Courts. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 19, 2011, 06:31:55 PM
POS...

I'll give you $50. ;D

Gee, don't take it personally.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on November 19, 2011, 06:49:10 PM
So does this mean instead of tank replacement, we would get the short seat and modified latch thingy?   That somewhat makes me not want to do that...I


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Massinova on November 19, 2011, 07:44:03 PM
So ya'll got the letter in the mail about the settlement, right?...
Modified seat latch and shorter seat! for my S2R1000...interesting and scary sounding.

I have to agree, and the ironic part about it is this appears to be Ducati's way of saying "yes we recognize there is problem, but since we are going to give you another crappy replacement we are making room for your replacement tank to grow"

I think treating the replacement tank with caswells, would be better solution in the long run than replacing the tank and altering the seat.  



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hunduc on November 19, 2011, 08:18:17 PM
Remember when I was b!itching loudly about the settlement?  Now it seems people have 1) read the letter in the mail, and 2) come to the realization that it's a Band-Aid collection of parts for their baby.  Layer in the huge drop in resale (if you'd like to get out from under the bike) and MAYBE you start seeing why I was complaining so loudly.

Carry on.

i read the settlement before, i am just not the loudly pregnant doging type generally. i am saying that sellers will suck with this. i will not sell, i will probably buy... i happen to love monsters (old type, anyway), and the tank issue can be solved in a variety of ways (costs some extra money of course). 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hunduc on November 19, 2011, 08:19:22 PM
I think treating the replacement tank with caswells, would be better solution in the long run than replacing the tank and altering the seat.  

i do not think the settlement says replacing the tank AND altering the seat. it is OR.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 19, 2011, 08:46:22 PM
where is TPG when you need them.   :-[


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 19, 2011, 09:19:58 PM
considering the amount of negative responses this will receive... i wonder if this will even come close to passing.

if it does... that'll be pretty messed up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 20, 2011, 12:55:34 AM
I think it's safe to say that all us wanted the settlement to require Ducati to provide customers with expansion issues with new tanks made of a material that will not be subject to future issues,  but they are not. Do I wish Ducati handled the situation differently, yes.  Was I happy that I was strung along by the first dealer I visited regarding the issue, no.  Does the verdict  suck, hell yes but at the end of the day I love my machine and settled for coating the tank and being done with this issue once and for all.  I'm surprised by how many people are still bent about this.  I remember looking at my original tank every time I rode and getting irritated by seeing a flaw in the finish or a wave or dimple.  I got the tank replaced,  had the daler coat it for 2 bills with caswells and never looked back.  done.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 20, 2011, 07:59:14 AM
Certainly the Caswell's is an option to avoidn (or at least delay) the expansion. 

But looking at the settlement, seeing how many bikes in Ducati's line were affected. . . would this have a negative impact on their sales in the future.  Time will tell I suppose.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on November 20, 2011, 09:14:23 AM
Certainly the Caswell's is an option to avoidn (or at least delay) the expansion. 

But looking at the settlement, seeing how many bikes in Ducati's line were affected. . . would this have a negative impact on their sales in the future.  Time will tell I suppose.

The saying about Ducati is still, after all these years and all kinds of improvements, that they are unreliable and of sloppy manufacturing. Lots of potential buyers back off because of it.

When the 'melting tanks' issue is added, it will of course hurt Ducati's reputation.

Ducati displays a stupid, childish and shameful attitude now, trying to crawl away from a responsible solution.

Cowards [thumbsdown]

 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 20, 2011, 10:00:25 AM
The saying about Ducati is still, after all these years and all kinds of improvements, that they are unreliable and of sloppy manufacturing. Lots of potential buyers back off because of it.

When the 'melting tanks' issue is added, it will of course hurt Ducati's reputation.

Ducati displays a stupid, childish and shameful attitude now, trying to crawl away from a responsible solution.

Cowards [thumbsdown]

 
+1


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 20, 2011, 01:03:06 PM
well said.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2011, 01:19:12 PM
The saying about Ducati is still, after all these years and all kinds of improvements, that they are unreliable and of sloppy manufacturing. Lots of potential buyers back off because of it.

When the 'melting tanks' issue is added, it will of course hurt Ducati's reputation.

Ducati displays a stupid, childish and shameful attitude now, trying to crawl away from a responsible solution.

Cowards [thumbsdown]

Ducati has swapped out how many tanks on bikes that were A) out of warranty and B) for a second or third owner?

I think there is a lot to admire about their reaction.  They haven't come thru with a better tank, but for a LOT of owners who have 4-5 year old bike and are the 2nd or 3rd owner, they swapped a tank, no questions asked.

I'd prefer that they figure out a permanent fix rather than effing with the bike parts to move things around to fit a swelling tank.  What happens when the tank shrinks back?

But as far as cowards?  No, sorry.  I don't think there has been a single auto manufacturer EVER who has gotten a claim from a buyer of a USED bike/car and done a free part/labor swap.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 20, 2011, 01:24:02 PM
Potentially dangerous situations? It's called a recall- something that Ducati should have done without even challenging the the issue in court.

Auto makers have done it many times.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2011, 01:49:00 PM
Potentially dangerous situations? It's called a recall- something that Ducati should have done without even challenging the the issue in court.

Auto makers have done it many times.

If it was clearly a dangerous defect, there wouldn't be a settlement and it would have gone to a jury and the payout would have been far larger.  You and I might be convinced, but NHTSA looked into it and decided it wasn't dangerous, so at least from a purely legal perspective, it wasn't dangerous.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on November 20, 2011, 02:49:51 PM
Potentially dangerous situations? It's called a recall- something that Ducati should have done without even challenging the the issue in court.

Auto makers have done it many times.

Recalls come from NHTSA, not the manufacturers.  Occasionally a manufacturer will initiate the recall, but that is rare.  Usually manufacturers do the opposite.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hunduc on November 20, 2011, 02:55:00 PM
What happens when the tank shrinks back?

can that happen? if you manage to use pure gas for a while after using ethanol, does the tank shrink back?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2011, 03:01:50 PM
can that happen? if you manage to use pure gas for a while after using ethanol, does the tank shrink back?

It can and DOES.  All of the tanks shrink back when dried.  Drain the tank, let it sit in a humidity-free environment and it will shrink back after 1-2 months.

Alternatively, put a gallon of hot water in it and it will balloon overnight.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 20, 2011, 03:08:40 PM
It can and DOES.  All of the tanks shrink back when dried.  Drain the tank, let it sit in a humidity-free environment and it will shrink back after 1-2 months.

Alternatively, put a gallon of hot water in it and it will balloon overnight.

but what happens when you put some mentos and coke inside it...

INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.  haha


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on November 20, 2011, 03:17:34 PM
Stupid, because it hits them where it hurts the most - reputation

Childish, because once confronted legally they wiggle and try to get off the easiest way

Shameful, because their behaviour is not in any way going to make them proud


"Ducati builds emotions" - their own words and very true.
How smart is it to disappoint up to 40,000 customers with a practical, economical and emotional issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2011, 03:42:29 PM
but what happens when you put some mentos and coke inside it...

INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.  haha

you look like a make the beast with two backsing idiot. 


 :)

Stupid, because it hits them where it hurts the most - reputation

Childish, because once confronted legally they wiggle and try to get off the easiest way

Shameful, because their behaviour is not in any way going to make them proud


"Ducati builds emotions" - their own words and very true.
How smart is it to disappoint up to 40,000 customers with a practical, economical and emotional issue?

put that into a legal argument and we can go somewhere.


i was reading the other day a thread a guy posted complaining the flat-earth theory doesn't get much attention.  anyone and their pet guinea can post on the web....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on November 20, 2011, 04:28:06 PM

put that into a legal argument and we can go somewhere.

i was reading the other day a thread a guy posted complaining the flat-earth theory doesn't get much attention.  anyone and their pet guinea can post on the web....

It's not a legal argument. It's just my opinion (worth somewhere between nothing and 2 cents)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 20, 2011, 04:57:30 PM
It can and DOES.  All of the tanks shrink back when dried.  Drain the tank, let it sit in a humidity-free environment and it will shrink back after 1-2 months.

Alternatively, put a gallon of hot water in it and it will balloon overnight.

i actually do have one question about this though...

when it shrinks back, do the paint issues get better?  i figure it def wont be as it was when it was non inflated, but does it get better at all or is it just screwed for good?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 20, 2011, 04:58:42 PM
It can and DOES.  All of the tanks shrink back when dried.  Drain the tank, let it sit in a humidity-free environment and it will shrink back after 1-2 months.

Alternatively, put a gallon of hot water in it and it will balloon overnight.
Mine shrinks back in just five minutes after I finish or right before I go to sleep.  [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2011, 05:14:41 PM
i actually do have one question about this though...

when it shrinks back, do the paint issues get better?  i figure it def wont be as it was when it was non inflated, but does it get better at all or is it just screwed for good?

I have seen mixed results.  If you have cracks, the cracks remain. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hunduc on November 21, 2011, 05:13:48 AM
Mine shrinks back in just five minutes after I finish or right before I go to sleep.  [laugh]

like a frightened turtle!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on November 22, 2011, 03:09:10 PM
So, I visit the dealership that replaced my original tank to learn their position on replacing, coating with Caswell's, etc. in hopes of getting a (lined) third tank before it's too late.  I was told the window is closing because of the proposed class action settlement and that unless the front of my tank is making physical contact with the ignition switch, then Ducati will not approve a replacement.  Before, we all know Ducati would consider frame mounts, too. 

If I were to have a replacement approved, the dealership is contracting out the Caswell lining for $150-200. 

Finally, the dealer is about to start selling a product called K100 to add to each tank of gas.

-Jeff

P.S.  Is anyone formally protesting the settlement to the court?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on November 22, 2011, 03:42:23 PM
I spoke with someone at Girard Gibbs yesterday and she told me that the courts should have reached a settlement by mid February pending any objections or appeals.

I haven't decided whether to "do nothing" or "comment or object", the woman I spoke to said that they would need enough people to object to the proposed settlement of just replacing the tanks in order to garner a different result. The downside to that, she said, is that if enough people object and the replacement settlement is not agreed upon because enough people want a better/different remedy (i.e. steel tanks) that the whole process could be drawn out indefinitely and there may be a possibility that Ducati may stop replacing tanks because of the lawsuit.

She also told me that there has been some testing going on with third party companies and that they have realized there is a saturation point with the tanks, meaning that the tanks will only absorb so much. A proposed remedy for that would be Ducati making a smaller tank as a replacement thus accommodating for the swelling and fit issues. She said the courts don't really care if the tanks look like shit just whether there are safety issues (i.e. fuel leaks). I would also assume a smaller tank would mean smaller fuel capacity which already isn't that great.

I would definitely have something to say about a smaller tank as a replacement but if I can get my hands on a regular sized tank and just coat it that would be fine by me.   :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 22, 2011, 03:48:03 PM
just picked up the replacement tank today for the sf.  going to try out that kreem tank mask stuff.  i'll let you guys know if it's worth it or just stick with masking the hell out of it.

update:  it sucks.  it prob works but it takes 2-3 coats and take 15-30 min for each coat to dry.

in the end, masking it off is simpler and easier and does the same thing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 22, 2011, 04:44:21 PM
still no one has been confronted with the "you pay the labor" and we replace tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 22, 2011, 07:52:28 PM
still no one has been confronted with the "you pay the labor" and we replace tank?

my dealer is doing everything under warranty, no labor charges at all.

pretty sure everyone else is the same or else there would have been a lot more posts about it


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 22, 2011, 08:23:26 PM
I have mixed feelings.  First I feel this problem belongs to the ethanol cartels for lobbying to sell a substandard fuel with the EPA being complicit by lying about its destructive properties.  Ducati -among others- just got left holding the bag.  Second I feel Ducati's sin was continuing to release new model bikes with nylon tanks for several years after they SHOULD have known better.  An 18 month extension on the warranty won't do me any good if Oklahoma starts mandating e-10 in 19 months.  I know I've got a tank with an expiration date on it but the timer won't start ticking until I move to another state or a bureaucrat signs a mandatory ethanol bill for Oklahoma.  I am going to ask to be excluded because I've got nothing to gain and nothing to lose.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 22, 2011, 08:37:20 PM
I don't know the legal precedence for this type of action, but I've thought about filing a small claims suit against Ducati. What would DNA do if they suddenly had to appear in 500 different counties across the US to settle various claims from different owners?

$5,000 is the limit for small claims in California

Any lawyers out there?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 22, 2011, 09:35:46 PM
I don't know the legal precedence for this type of action, but I've thought about filing a small claims suit against Ducati. What would DNA do if they suddenly had to appear in 500 different counties across the US to settle various claims from different owners?

$5,000 is the limit for small claims in California

Any lawyers out there?

Lawyer here.

No small claims court I know of would allow that kind of suit.  Small claims is for return of property or contract breach (i.e. party D owes party P money).  There are a few other types of claims, but defective product and/or failure to honor warranty aren't one of them.

You might do better with a Lemon Law claim, but generally the remedy for a Lemon Law claim is the manufacturer has to buy your vehicle for estimated market price.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 23, 2011, 06:47:35 AM
Interesting-thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on November 23, 2011, 07:56:10 AM
Any reports about Monster 1100 EVO tank issues?
Is this BS?

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/04/17-high-res-photos-of-the-ducati-monster-1100-evo/#more-16437 (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/04/17-high-res-photos-of-the-ducati-monster-1100-evo/#more-16437)

"Update: Ducati tell us the plastic fuel tanks on this new generation
Monster and the Diavel are now impervious to the deformation caused by
US fuel’s ethanol content which affected older models."


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 23, 2011, 08:09:12 AM
Any reports about Monster 1100 EVO tank issues?
Is this BS?

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/04/17-high-res-photos-of-the-ducati-monster-1100-evo/#more-16437 (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2011/04/17-high-res-photos-of-the-ducati-monster-1100-evo/#more-16437)

"Update: Ducati tell us the plastic fuel tanks on this new generation
Monster and the Diavel are now impervious to the deformation caused by
US fuel’s ethanol content which affected older models."


there have been reports of the new monster's expanding as it's the same material as before.  the big diff is that it's just not as noticeable due to the tank skins.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 23, 2011, 09:12:40 AM


P.S.  Is anyone formally protesting the settlement to the court?

Yes, I will be protesting and writing a lengthy letter to the address provided on the settlement.

Part of the letter will be documenting the history of etanol in NA gasoline mixtures.  This should have been considered when Ducati (or its suppliers) formulated the tanks:


From the EIA:

1975: The United States begins to phase out lead in gasoline. Ethanol becomes more attractive as a possible octane booster for gasoline. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued the initial regulations, requiring reduced levels of lead in gasoline in early 1973. By 1986 no lead was allowed in motor gasoline.

1978: The term gasohol was defined, for the first time, in the Energy Tax Act of 1978. Gasohol was defined as a blend of gasoline with at least 10 percent alcohol by volume, excluding alcohol made from petroleum, natural gas, or coal. For this reason, all ethanol to be blended into gasoline is produced from renewable biomass feedstocks. The Federal excise tax on gasoline at the time was 4 cents per gallon. This law amounted to a 40-cents-per-gallon subsidy for every gallon of ethanol blended into gasoline.

1979: The marketing of commercial alcohol-blended fuels began by the Amoco Oil Company, followed by Ashland, Chevron, Beacon, and Texaco. About $1 billion eventually went to biomass-related projects from the Department of the Interior and Related Agencies Appropriation Act.

Of course this has been discussed several times.

Part 2 of the letter is to have some consideration of owners covering some part of the expense of a new, permanent fix for the tanks.  Meaning that if you were offered a non-expanding tank, or a metal tank at a nominal cost, the owner would (could) be willing to pay for it.  It could be a DP item, but at the very least it gets The Company thinking about lessening the impact of full-blown tooling and evaluation of said tank.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 23, 2011, 09:15:57 AM
there have been reports of the new monster's expanding as it's the same material as before.  the big diff is that it's just not as noticeable due to the tank skins.

1200 Multis have been going badly though.  Here's a quote from a Multi 1200 owner (Ducati enthusiast) on ADVrider's forums:

The settlement leaves a lot to be desired. The coverage for my Multistrada 1200 is limited to issues with clearance and the tank fitting in the frame, and does nothing to address the swelling of the tank and the effect it has on the painted bodypanel fit, which is literally bursting at the seams.

http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17366301&postcount=26 (http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17366301&postcount=26)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 23, 2011, 07:46:17 PM
I was told today that labor is no longer part of the tank replacement by someone who went to a shop.  Maybe some people are jumping ahead of the lawsuit settlement? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 23, 2011, 09:04:14 PM
no one has reported that to me

I'm the guy who just bought a gorgeous 2007 (less than 6 years) S4RS two weeks ago - I noticed some ripples in the side an thought oh well but then when the latch wouldn't open and the dealer (AMS in Dallas) looked at it and said yes it needs a new tank I thouhgt thats great - I hadn't heard about the problem before I bought the bike - certainly would have made me think twice. Anyhow they told me today I'm responsible for the labor because Ducati is doing the tank replacement out of good will - I asked if I could do it myself and they said no that wasn't allowed because it was a warranty issue - they want $150 to replace the tank - it's the second time a tank has been replaced on that bike - first one (in 2009 out of original warranty I beleive) was done at no cost to the owner. I think I will be calling Ducati North America Monday.
Anyone interested in a great 2007 S4RS, full Termis, ECU, shorty levers, open clutch, 1K miles on the tires, never been down (I know the 3 previous owners), Rizoma resovoirs and brackets - make me an offer.

I need to know soon about the labor because it's scheduled to go down 12/3 for the new tank - can I go to another dealer if they won't charge the labor since AMS already got the replacement tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 23, 2011, 09:21:57 PM
correction.......you were told, by ME.  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 23, 2011, 10:48:25 PM
i'd contact dna and talk to them... with so many cases of tanks being replaced gratis there is no reason at all anyone should have to pay for it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on November 24, 2011, 07:09:11 AM
there have been reports of the new monster's expanding as it's the same material as before.  the big diff is that it's just not as noticeable due to the tank skins.
I'd be fine if the tank expands (a little), and long as the fit within the bike allows it, from a safety, cosmetic and overall mechanical structure POV.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 24, 2011, 07:54:30 AM
I'd be fine if the tank expands (a little), and long as the fit within the bike allows it, from a safety, cosmetic and overall mechanical structure POV.


i wouldnt even accept that as expansion doesnt really stop.  i'd get it replaced and coated just so you know it wont expand at all in the future.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on November 24, 2011, 02:58:44 PM
the dealer (AMS in Dallas)...they want $150 to replace the tank - it's the second time a tank has been replaced on that bike - first one (in 2009 out of original warranty I beleive) was done at no cost to the owner.

It was AMS I visited on Tuesday.  They replaced my original tank for free under warranty.  I was told Tuesday the $150-200 was for labor to coat the tank with Caswell.  For information, I visited Big D before going to AMS and learned AMS is contracting the tank lining to Big D.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 24, 2011, 04:59:08 PM
It was AMS I visited on Tuesday.  They replaced my original tank for free under warranty.  I was told Tuesday the $150-200 was for labor to coat the tank with Caswell.  For information, I visited Big D before going to AMS and learned AMS is contracting the tank lining to Big D.

-Jeff

Funny but thats a completely different story than what they told me Wed - nothing was mentioned about coating the tank - they are recomending using K100 which they are going to start carrying - not sure if your bike is out of original warranty or not - that might have something to do with it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on November 25, 2011, 09:12:23 AM
Lawyer here.

No small claims court I know of would allow that kind of suit.  Small claims is for return of property or contract breach (i.e. party D owes party P money).  There are a few other types of claims, but defective product and/or failure to honor warranty aren't one of them.

You might do better with a Lemon Law claim, but generally the remedy for a Lemon Law claim is the manufacturer has to buy your vehicle for estimated market price.

Also lawyer (multi generational family of lawyers at thanksgiving to boot) - had discussion over t-giving dinner and all agreed you ought to (a) coat tank, (b) protest settlement in writing if you don't like it - many should pay someone who can write well to do it for you, (c) save pennies for carbon/kevlar (eti) or aluminum tank if you like everything about your bike except for ethanol-fuel expansion possibility.

this was a "what would i do if it was my bike" hypothetical posed to those in the family that rode.   My ol' man, who is a harley & ducati rider, didn't believe something "as trivial" as having to coat a tank to prevent expansion is a big deal if you like the bike in all other aspects.

my personal thoughts re: settlement is that Ducati isn't out all that much in the end - they are extending their promise/warranty on replacing tanks for a set period of time which I think is very nice, but ought to contract with a domestic company who offers a coating service (or recommend dealerships to do this individually) to offer to replacement-tank owners at a discount (contracted lower labor rate for essentially a "needs-based" contract).

My three part related opinion on the matter:
- i would coat the damn tank and go back to my normal life of tinkering with other stuff and riding
- at least ducati isn't giving owners the middle finger denying all warranty claims for using ethanol-blend gasoline (the owners manuals, iirc, do indicate 'gasoline' of a certain octane and make no mention of using a blended fuel as acceptable)
- not good for brand image, but to the non-duc owners in my fam, they didn't seem to care - relegating the fuel system's tank to being only 1 component among thousands, and an easy solution is available


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 25, 2011, 03:24:19 PM
just had the new tank put in on the sfs, but one issue that came up after we got the old tank off is that plastic side panels have now warped due to how badly swelled the previous tank was.  they no longer sit flush with the tank and now bow out with maybe a quarter inch of space between the panels and the new tank.

does ducati cover this under their warranty too?  for parts damaged due to the tank expansion?  the dealer said it was pretty iffy on whether or not they would cover it and said they would most likely not cover it.

anyone else have something like this happen to them?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 25, 2011, 03:54:36 PM
the settlement covers damaged Ducati branded parts


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 25, 2011, 04:08:59 PM
My dealer said that Ducati would not replace a swollen tank if it had been coated. True?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 25, 2011, 04:19:27 PM
My dealer said that Ducati would not replace a swollen tank if it had been coated. True?

Of the several dozen tank replacements I've seen, none, repeat, none have involved an inspection of the tank's interior.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on November 25, 2011, 04:20:09 PM
indeed, they will not check and see (in all likelihood)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 25, 2011, 04:24:42 PM
the settlement covers damaged Ducati branded parts

perfect, i'll let the dealer know about the settlement details.  thanks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 25, 2011, 05:39:23 PM
i was thinking about this... instead of offering a caswell treatment they cant offer because of homologation, could they offer a $250-$350 (depending on the size of the tank, i know the dealer i used charges more for a mts tank vs a sf tank) one time credit that must be spent at the dealer doing the replacement upon the first replacement of a tank?  at that point the owner could decide to do what they wanted with it, but most likely would have a "free" caswell done at the same time?  and just make sure that all the dealers know about the caswell coating beforehand.

a extended warranty + a free roundabout caswell coating would see me pretty ok as a realistic solution.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 25, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
That could work.

I was thinking of something in the opposite direction.

If Ducati offered a DP tank in a more stable material. . . or offered a metal tank which might cost us (the affected owners) a nominal amount to cover their investment in tooling, testing etc.  It could be a better solution than coating a PE tank and might be considered better than the OE tank.

On a similar note, why was the Aus formulation different than the US tanks?  WTF was Ducati/Acerbis thinking by offering (and showing via tooling stamp) different tank formulations in different regions?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 25, 2011, 10:27:39 PM

On a similar note, why was the Aus formulation different than the US tanks?  WTF was Ducati/Acerbis thinking by offering (and showing via tooling stamp) different tank formulations in different regions?

CARB laws dont let them use the eu/au kind of plastic... PEX i believe.  it's gas permeable enough that it wont pass regulations, i'm guessing that the material has to allow 0% of all vapor to permeate.  if CARB laws allowed it i'm sure they would have tried to switch to PEX already.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ungeheuer on November 25, 2011, 10:46:03 PM
CARB laws dont let them use the eu/au kind of plastic... PEX i believe.  it's gas permeable enough that it wont pass regulations, i'm guessing that the material has to allow 0% of all vapor to permeate.  if CARB laws allowed it i'm sure they would have tried to switch to PEX already.
Yup.  EU market new Monsters (Australia is in Europe apparently) get PEX (aka XLPE) tanks.  USA gets nylon.  PE and PEX is exactly as you say, gas permeable.  There's no way to get paint to adhere to it with any longevity - maybe thats why they went to the plastic tank with outer skins for the new Monsters?   The really interesting thing for me is that since it does seem like Ducati couldnt get PEX approved for use in the USA.... that they bothered to make a PEX tank at all. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 26, 2011, 05:19:44 AM
i was thinking about this... instead of offering a caswell treatment they cant offer because of homologation, could they offer a $250-$350 (depending on the size of the tank, i know the dealer i used charges more for a mts tank vs a sf tank) one time credit that must be spent at the dealer doing the replacement upon the first replacement of a tank?  at that point the owner could decide to do what they wanted with it, but most likely would have a "free" caswell done at the same time?  and just make sure that all the dealers know about the caswell coating beforehand.

a extended warranty + a free roundabout caswell coating would see me pretty ok as a realistic solution.
it is exactly what I suggested to DNA over a year ago.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on November 26, 2011, 08:57:28 AM
Yup.  EU market new Monsters (Australia is in Europe apparently) get PEX (aka XLPE) tanks.  USA gets nylon.  PE and PEX is exactly as you say, gas permeable.  There's no way to get paint to adhere to it with any longevity - maybe thats why they went to the plastic tank with outer skins for the new Monsters?   The really interesting thing for me is that since it does seem like Ducati couldnt get PEX approved for use in the USA.... that they bothered to make a PEX tank at all. 
So, assuming money is no issue, and someone wanted to solve the problem with no sealer in the tank, could he get a tank directly from Italy and mount it (living "legal" bits off the topic)?
Would it be a 100% fit, or USA models have someone a different layout?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on November 26, 2011, 10:03:23 AM
So, assuming money is no issue, and someone wanted to solve the problem with no sealer in the tank, could he get a tank directly from Italy and mount it (living "legal" bits off the topic)?
Would it be a 100% fit, or USA models have someone a different layout?

Make sure you order the tank for ABS.  ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: bikepilot on November 26, 2011, 10:14:31 AM
FWIW dirt bike tanks are plastic, permeable, and don't have expansion issues that I can tell (I've got half a dozen of them, so I'd probably have noticed by now).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on November 26, 2011, 10:24:18 AM
FWIW dirt bike tanks are plastic, permeable, and don't have expansion issues that I can tell (I've got half a dozen of them, so I'd probably have noticed by now).

So, do those say "PEX" on the bottom? (When will CA slide into the Pacific?  [evil])


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on November 26, 2011, 11:43:10 AM
Make sure you order the tank for ABS.  ;)
Yup, of course  :)
Besides that, can I expect no ad-hoc USA changes from that POV?
If my bike will start having unbearable tank swelling problems, my plan is:

  • Get the warranty replaced tank out of DNA
  • Sell that tank on eBay
  • Get new tank in Italy next summer and carry in USA on return  8)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on November 26, 2011, 12:22:21 PM

Sounds like a plan. While I stand to be corrected by anyone with superior knowledge, my dealer told me that all the new bikes are Euro 3 compliant. So I "presume" the only difference is the CA evaps canister.

BTW, when I ordered a Pantah kit for my 796, it came from Italy via DHL from the factory direct in about a week. That box ought to be about the same size and weight. If you can get an Italian dealer to ship it via DHL and avoid paying VAT, the cost should be similar or less. Hate to think what airlines would charge these days! ;)

You have an 1100 EVO, right?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on November 26, 2011, 12:22:50 PM
Yup, of course  :)
Besides that, can I expect no ad-hoc USA changes from that POV?
If my bike will start having unbearable tank swelling problems, my plan is:

  • Get the warranty replaced tank out of DNA
  • Sell that tank on eBay
  • Get new tank in Italy next summer and carry in USA on return  8)



If money is no issue why not get an aluminum tank.  [evil]
(http://www.bikebros.co.jp/eblog/files/IMG_2640.JPG)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on November 26, 2011, 03:16:32 PM
If money is no issue why not get an aluminum tank.  [evil]
(http://www.bikebros.co.jp/eblog/files/IMG_2640.JPG)
I hear three grands for the ABS model, and you have to be the guinea pig. Plus, you have to paint it. Which easily heads up to four grands.
I can totally understand that price, since volume is tiny, but I can have a fully functional, swell-free, stock Ducati, solution for much less $$.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 26, 2011, 05:32:41 PM
Yup, of course  :)
Besides that, can I expect no ad-hoc USA changes from that POV?
If my bike will start having unbearable tank swelling problems, my plan is:

  • Get the warranty replaced tank out of DNA
  • Sell that tank on eBay
  • Get new tank in Italy next summer and carry in USA on return  8)



In order to get the new tank the dealer has to send the old tank back - you can't keep it


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ungeheuer on November 26, 2011, 05:56:36 PM
In order to get the new tank the dealer has to send the old tank back - you can't keep it
I think HotIce is talking about having his original tank replaced under warranty (yes, the dealer will keep the original), then selling the brand new unused US market replacement tank and buying a new EU market tank made from PEX.

FWIW dirt bike tanks are plastic, permeable, and don't have expansion issues that I can tell (I've got half a dozen of them, so I'd probably have noticed by now).
I dont doubt it.  PEX and/or PE doesnt seem to have the expansion issues which afflict nylon gas tanks.  But Ducati (via Acerbis) make the newer Monster tanks of 2 different materials, PA (nylon) for the US and PEX for everywhere else. Seems likely that they stick with the expansion-prone nylon for USA only because they cannot get PEX past the regulators.  Are your dirt bikes road legal machines?  Are the plastic tanks stock or aftermarket? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on November 27, 2011, 04:58:38 PM
...they are recomending using K100 which they are going to start carrying...

They bragged about the K100 to me, too.  I'm sure they plan to make a tidy profit off it.  I'm not crazy about additives, though.  When I'm out for a 350 mile ride, I don't want to have to carry a bottle of snake oil with me for each fill up (their recommendation).

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 27, 2011, 06:08:16 PM
The active ingredients of the k100 product are ethanol and ether.

No thanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 27, 2011, 07:25:06 PM
The active ingredients of the k100 product are ethanol and ether.

No thanks.

where did you get that info?  There is nothing on their website indicating ingrediants nor on the bottle I have in my garage?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 27, 2011, 07:27:58 PM
I think HotIce is talking about having his original tank replaced under warranty (yes, the dealer will keep the original), then selling the brand new unused US market replacement tank and buying a new EU market tank made from PEX.
 

why would anyone buy a tank they can get replaced under warranty? Especially a tank that will continue to expand?
Am I missing something here?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 27, 2011, 07:39:11 PM
where did you get that info?  There is nothing on their website indicating ingrediants nor on the bottle I have in my garage?

MSDS sheets require them to divulge secrets.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/K100_MSDS.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on November 28, 2011, 07:24:30 AM
why would anyone buy a tank they can get replaced under warranty? Especially a tank that will continue to expand?
Am I missing something here?
You assume things never break, or bikes never go into an accident  ;)
Sure is, if my tank is going to expand, I prefer to cut short and either get a non expanding one from outside USA, or coat the replacement one.
Former solution preferred.
I don't want to be on/off at my dealership every two months because, yet again, the same old tank expanded. Just because it is under warranty.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 28, 2011, 09:58:29 AM
You assume things never break, or bikes never go into an accident  ;)
Sure is, if my tank is going to expand, I prefer to cut short and either get a non expanding one from outside USA, or coat the replacement one.
Former solution preferred.
I don't want to be on/off at my dealership every two months because, yet again, the same old tank expanded. Just because it is under warranty.



I agree 100% about getting one that won't expand - accidents I would think would be covered under ins (provided you carry comprehensive) - I think it would be a very limited market to be able to resell the replaced tank. I've also heard the coating isn't a  100% fix either and once you do that you void the waranty - I would keep getting replacments up until the 18 month expiration time period before coating one and hope that someone in the interim has come up a permanenteconomical fix by then. Just my thoughts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 28, 2011, 10:02:56 AM
MSDS sheets require them to divulge secrets.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/K100_MSDS.jpg)

Thanks - just curious if it's the same MSDS for the G formula as the Marine Grade shown? My guess would be yes but perhaps different percent in formula?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 28, 2011, 10:36:46 AM
Thanks - just curious if it's the same MSDS for the G formula as the Marine Grade shown? My guess would be yes but perhaps different percent in formula?

generally speaking, they just add some coloring and relabel the same thing.. maybe add some more "stuff"



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 28, 2011, 10:41:04 AM
I agree 100% about getting one that won't expand - accidents I would think would be covered under ins (provided you carry comprehensive) - I think it would be a very limited market to be able to resell the replaced tank. I've also heard the coating isn't a  100% fix either and once you do that you void the waranty - I would keep getting replacments up until the 18 month expiration time period before coating one and hope that someone in the interim has come up a permanenteconomical fix by then. Just my thoughts.

It's bit too much to ask someone to read through 130 pages, but to give you the Cliff Notes:

1) Caswell coating  [thumbsup]
2) Dealers never checking before submitting claim  [thumbsup]
3) Some dealers giving erroneous information bordering on lies  [thumbsdown]
4) Settlement  [thumbsdown]
5) Ducatiz in a tutu  [puke]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 28, 2011, 10:44:28 AM
It's bit too much to ask someone to read through 130 pages, but to give you the Cliff Notes:

1) Caswell coating  [thumbsup]
2) Dealers never checking before submitting claim  [thumbsup]
3) Some dealers giving erroneous information bordering on lies  [thumbsdown]
4) Settlement  [thumbsdown]
5) Ducatiz in a tutu  [puke]


you wish, chulo!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on November 29, 2011, 08:02:01 AM
I agree 100% about getting one that won't expand - accidents I would think would be covered under ins (provided you carry comprehensive) - I think it would be a very limited market to be able to resell the replaced tank. I've also heard the coating isn't a  100% fix either and once you do that you void the waranty - I would keep getting replacments up until the 18 month expiration time period before coating one and hope that someone in the interim has come up a permanenteconomical fix by then. Just my thoughts.
The thing is, I like to ride, and not spending time at the dealership replacing tanks or filing for multiple claims.
Also, to go to my dealership I have to basically take a day off each time.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 29, 2011, 02:15:21 PM
The thing is, I like to ride, and not spending time at the dealership replacing tanks or filing for multiple claims.
Also, to go to my dealership I have to basically take a day off each time.


I agree 100% - I would rather ride than spend anytime at the dealer but then again I don't want to have a bike that in 18 months the resale drops off considerably just because Ducati didn't come up with a fix and instead just keeps putting band-aids on it until their 'negotiated' liability is done.


Title: Update on tank & labor costs
Post by: Frisco on November 29, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Well I spent this morning on the phone with the attorneys and two Ducati dealships here in the Dallas Metroplex (I won't badmouth anyone but if you email me I will tell you their names). One dealer wants to charge me $150 to get my tank replaced for labor costs that they claim Ducati is not reimbursing them for (though they have replaced other tanks in and out of warranty at no charge) - the other dealer says they will do it for free. The first dealer says Ducati is not paying for  labor now but they will have to once the class-action settlement is approved by the courts in Feb. (estimated time). The attorneys working on the class action suit says labor is included in the term 'replacement' and it will be at no cost to the bike owner. So my options today are 1) pay $150 for a new tank, 2) wait til the class action suit is settled and have the 1st dealer do it at no charge or 3) have the 2nd dealer (further away) do it now at no cost. I'm choosing option 3 obviously. When I presented my findings to the first dealer they said they are not going to lose money because Ducati has changed their tune and won't reimburse them for labor even though the 2nd dealer has comitted to doing it for no labor cost.
I'm still waiting to hear from Ducati who acknowledged my email last week and said 'someone will get back to me'. If they tell me that labor is to be covered now then I will be filing a formal complaint about the first dealer and I will post their name on here for all to see.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 29, 2011, 03:19:17 PM
I just heard back from the attorney for the class action suit - they just got off the phone with Ducati who told them that labor is to be included with the replacement of all tanks - the consumer is NOT to be charged to have the tank replaced. I will be notifying Ducati Customer Service (the attorney was kind enough to give me a name and number) of the dealer who in my opinion (mind you this is my opinion) tried to rip me off and who knows who else they have charged for labor on something that Ducati is paying for.
Kudos to Ducati for stepping up on this even though a permanent fix would be much better -  [thumbsdown] [thumbsdown] to the dealer who is trying to make extra $$ - feel free to email me for the dealers name.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 29, 2011, 04:18:01 PM
One last update - I just got off the phone with Ducati NA Cust.Svc. and they confirmed they pay the dealers the book rate for a tank replacement so no one should be being charged labor to replace their tanks provided the dealer has looked at it and gotten it approved for replacment. My replacement tank is being expeditied as I type to the dealer who was NOT going to charge me labor - they will be getting all my business going forward.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 30, 2011, 05:08:28 AM
This thread is full of stories like this. Some dealers are misinformed and others simply don't want to deal with the situation. I was lucky that my local dealer not only took care of it, but also told me that it's expanding and that I should bring it back in for replacement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on November 30, 2011, 02:09:36 PM
That is exactly what happened here with me - the dealer had bad info from DNA - they have called to apologized and offered to make it right to retain my business - they are doing the right thing and replacing my tank this Sat.
All's well that ends well - now if we can get those metal replacement tanks from Ducati life will be grand!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 30, 2011, 05:33:06 PM
- now if we can get those metal replacement tanks from Ducati life will be grand!
[/quote]

In the words of my favorite Aerosmith tune..."dream on, dream on, dream on"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Capt baz on December 03, 2011, 05:00:19 AM
just this year i started to notice the tank latch becoming harder to operate as it was close to the ignition cover. i thought that maybe @ the last service the dealer may have done something while in for service. then i get this class action letter about tank expansion/distortion. i called razee's, the dealer where i purchased it last week, & brian, the service manager said bring it up & he would take pictures of it & send it to dna. he told me they had done about 10 tanks. 1098's, multi's & monster's. he said most affected were low mile bikes that sit with gas in them. he said no charge & ducati just replaces them. it takes a couple of weeks for a disposition from dna, so i wait.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: convict on December 06, 2011, 03:53:36 PM
For the better part of my life I have had the ducati dream and just this year my wife okay'd the second bike. I have been reading, analysing, testing and scrutinizing all and the monster wins. I have been making my notes, cross checking, pricing, eliminating, and back to dreaming.  It has come down to S2R vs bmw f800r vs triumph street triple vs fz 800 vs er 6n vs sv 650 vs 796.
Until now that is, I just learned of the tank issue. Trying not to be a goof here but this tank issue, I'm done. Why this post then you ask? To answer the question many of you are asking "who is going to buy our used bikes?. I was prepared to spend the cash, drive the four hours to the nearest dealer, pay the 35% more in servicing costs and 50% more in parts cost but cannot deal with ducati's overall lack of consideration for you all. I hope ducati management reads this and gets its act together.
HEY DUCATI !! I AM BUYING A TRIUMPH.
if any can assure me that ducati will continue to replace the tanks on a used ducati I might reconsider but otherwise I'm gone. Wish you all the best and maybe someone can start doing after market metal tanks. I just don't get it, after years and years of this how ducati thinks the solution is to blame the gas, the manufacturer, the owner. look for me on the triumph forums. [Dolph]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 06, 2011, 03:55:20 PM
For the better part of my life I have had the ducati dream and just this year my wife okay'd the second bike. I have been reading, analysing, testing and scrutinizing all and the monster wins. I have been making my notes, cross checking, pricing, eliminating, and back to dreaming.  It has come down to S2R vs bmw f800r vs triumph street triple vs fz 800 vs er 6n vs sv 650 vs 796.
Until now that is, I just learned of the tank issue. Trying not to be a goof here but this tank issue, I'm done. Why this post then you ask? To answer the question many of you are asking "who is going to buy our used bikes?. I was prepared to spend the cash, drive the four hours to the nearest dealer, pay the 35% more in servicing costs and 50% more in parts cost but cannot deal with ducati's overall lack of consideration for you all. I hope ducati management reads this and gets its act together.
HEY DUCATI !! I AM BUYING A TRIUMPH.
if any can assure me that ducati will continue to replace the tanks on a used ducati I might reconsider but otherwise I'm gone. Wish you all the best and maybe someone can start doing after market metal tanks. I just don't get it, after years and years of this how ducati thinks the solution is to blame the gas, the manufacturer, the owner. look for me on the triumph forums. [Dolph]
Buh Bye. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: justinrhenry on December 06, 2011, 05:58:43 PM
For the better part of my life I have had the ducati dream and just this year my wife okay'd the second bike. I have been reading, analysing, testing and scrutinizing all and the monster wins. I have been making my notes, cross checking, pricing, eliminating, and back to dreaming.  It has come down to S2R vs bmw f800r vs triumph street triple vs fz 800 vs er 6n vs sv 650 vs 796.
Until now that is, I just learned of the tank issue. Trying not to be a goof here but this tank issue, I'm done. Why this post then you ask? To answer the question many of you are asking "who is going to buy our used bikes?. I was prepared to spend the cash, drive the four hours to the nearest dealer, pay the 35% more in servicing costs and 50% more in parts cost but cannot deal with ducati's overall lack of consideration for you all. I hope ducati management reads this and gets its act together.
HEY DUCATI !! I AM BUYING A TRIUMPH.
if any can assure me that ducati will continue to replace the tanks on a used ducati I might reconsider but otherwise I'm gone. Wish you all the best and maybe someone can start doing after market metal tanks. I just don't get it, after years and years of this how ducati thinks the solution is to blame the gas, the manufacturer, the owner. look for me on the triumph forums. [Dolph]

I'd probably feel this way too if I were in the market for a bike.  Why would anyone in their right mind buy a bike with a potential problem like this?

But, it doesn't happen to all bikes.  I've had my streetfighter for 2 years and there's no sign of swelling. 

Triumphs are good bikes.  I've owned two and will probably own another one some day, but they don't really compare to Ducatis. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 06, 2011, 07:11:42 PM
I'd probably feel this way too if I were in the market for a bike.  Why would anyone in their right mind buy a bike with a potential problem like this?

But, it doesn't happen to all bikes.  I've had my streetfighter for 2 years and there's no sign of swelling.  

Triumphs are good bikes.  I've owned two and will probably own another one some day, but they don't really compare to Ducatis.  

I agree that it doesn't happen to all bikes.  But you need to be specific on 'why' Triumphs don't compare to Ducatis.  Personally I think they do, but with a 3-pot exhaust note and better fueling on the bottom end.

Its not Italian, it's English obviously but throw a leg over and it's fantastic.  Brakes, acceleration and riding position all suit me well.  The Speed Trip and Street Trip are engaging as is the 675 with that meaty midrange.

Ducatis are. . . well, different.  Booming L-twin, thumpy exhaust and we all know the rest.

IMHO, Convict stated his point well, thoroughly and in detail.  He's also right in asking why someone would willing enter into a bike purchase knowing the uncertainty of any availability (for deforming tanks) in the future.  Face it, our resale on these bikes will skid downhill unless an acceptable solution is reached.  Good for Convict for pointing out the obvious and not giving a free pass on this 'quirk'.

I'd love to hear what updates or issues may evolve on the Trump, and how the Company responds to them.

For those of us with the bikes, it's been stated before, and is irresponsible for Ducati to act as they are.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on December 06, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
For the better part of my life I have had the ducati dream and just this year my wife okay'd the second bike. I have been reading, analysing, testing and scrutinizing all and the monster wins. I have been making my notes, cross checking, pricing, eliminating, and back to dreaming.  It has come down to S2R vs bmw f800r vs triumph street triple vs fz 800 vs er 6n vs sv 650 vs 796.
Until now that is, I just learned of the tank issue. Trying not to be a goof here but this tank issue, I'm done. Why this post then you ask? To answer the question many of you are asking "who is going to buy our used bikes?. I was prepared to spend the cash, drive the four hours to the nearest dealer, pay the 35% more in servicing costs and 50% more in parts cost but cannot deal with ducati's overall lack of consideration for you all. I hope ducati management reads this and gets its act together.
HEY DUCATI !! I AM BUYING A TRIUMPH.
if any can assure me that ducati will continue to replace the tanks on a used ducati I might reconsider but otherwise I'm gone. Wish you all the best and maybe someone can start doing after market metal tanks. I just don't get it, after years and years of this how ducati thinks the solution is to blame the gas, the manufacturer, the owner. look for me on the triumph forums. [Dolph]

I know there are Triumphs that also suffer from the plastic tank problems - don't know if the Street Trip is one - if it's got a plastic tank that is hidden by panels it too may suffer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 06, 2011, 08:47:30 PM
they got dookie for suspenders on 'em.  like they're filled with fish 'n' chips.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 06, 2011, 10:39:35 PM
Dunno.  Convict has one post, doesn't own a Duc and goes on a rant.  +1 to ducpainter's response.

Yes, Triumph makes great bikes.  Oh, they also have plastic tank problems.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 07, 2011, 03:22:53 AM
they got dookie for suspenders on 'em.  like they're filled with fish 'n' chips.

Not when you compare equivalent models. A street triple R will run circles around a 796 in all aspects, AND has three way adjustable suspension to boot. Couple that with the STR's metal tank and you have a winner.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2011, 05:19:01 AM
Yes, Triumph makes great bikes.  Oh, they also have plastic tank problems.

I don't know what their response to their owners with the tank problems has been, but I do know that Triumph has completely dropped plastic tanks in their lineup.

Maybe they don't have rotomolding in Thailand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 07, 2011, 05:24:46 AM
<snip> but I do know that Triumph has completely dropped plastic tanks in their lineup.

probably a good call.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 07, 2011, 05:43:30 AM
I don't know what their response to their owners with the tank problems has been, but I do know that Triumph has completely dropped plastic tanks in their lineup.

Maybe they don't have rotomolding in Thailand.

Yep, gone for 2012.  More than a few distorted Tigers and Speeds Triples out there though.  I have no real info on how they handled the problem. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2011, 06:07:42 AM
If anyone is concerned as to whether tank coatings will adhere and last with a nylon tank, I've got a whitepaper coming which looks at the specific forms of epoxy used in the Caswell and 3m products. 

Suffice to say, they are among the class of compounds considered "preferred adhesives" when used with polyamides. 

More later...



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: convict on December 07, 2011, 06:23:56 AM
you are right - I don't own a ducati. I wanted one. And yes some triumphs do have the same problem as I noted. so do bimmers aprilia, etc and. And yes triumphs does source and build world wide, but seriously you think that everything on your ducati is italian. And yes I did only just join this forum to post my "rant". Heres the thing, I am not arguing which is better, I dont give a shoot.  I was trying to answer the question one of your friends posted in this chat "who is gonna buy our used bikes".  I can't speak for others but your tanks are almost dangerous and riding is stupid enuff without this extra problem. And ducati has been selling these tanks for years and done nothing about it. It does not speak well for them and does affect your resale value.  grow up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 07, 2011, 08:03:33 AM
you are right - I don't own a ducati. I wanted one. And yes some triumphs do have the same problem as I noted. so do bimmers aprilia, etc and. And yes triumphs does source and build world wide, but seriously you think that everything on your ducati is italian. And yes I did only just join this forum to post my "rant". Heres the thing, I am not arguing which is better, I dont give a shoot.  I was trying to answer the question one of your friends posted in this chat "who is gonna buy our used bikes".  I can't speak for others but your tanks are almost dangerous and riding is stupid enuff without this extra problem. And ducati has been selling these tanks for years and done nothing about it. It does not speak well for them and does affect your resale value.  grow up.

Great second post too [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 07, 2011, 09:30:43 AM
you are right - I don't own a ducati. I wanted one. And yes some triumphs do have the same problem as I noted. so do bimmers aprilia, etc and. And yes triumphs does source and build world wide, but seriously you think that everything on your ducati is italian. And yes I did only just join this forum to post my "rant". Heres the thing, I am not arguing which is better, I dont give a shoot.  I was trying to answer the question one of your friends posted in this chat "who is gonna buy our used bikes".  I can't speak for others but your tanks are almost dangerous and riding is stupid enuff without this extra problem. And ducati has been selling these tanks for years and done nothing about it. It does not speak well for them and does affect your resale value.  grow up.
If riding is stupid...

why do want a second bike? I'd think you could use up your allotment of stupid with the one you claim to own.

See here's the deal...I don't think you own a bike. I think you're just a troll.

In that vein...

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3156/2581933821_723edbc915.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26408631@N02/2581933821/)
258Troll_spray (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26408631@N02/2581933821/#) by nh_painter (http://www.flickr.com/people/26408631@N02/), on Flickr


[hope it works this time.]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 07, 2011, 09:36:58 AM
enuff you guys!  (because its enough letters fewer than 'enough' to make the change to enuff worthwhile.)   


grammar and spelling: not just for grade school book reports.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 07, 2011, 09:53:19 AM
I thought I had posted this earlier... don't feed the troll.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on December 07, 2011, 11:01:26 AM
I have a practical question to ask.
Living in NJ I put my Monster away for the bulk of the season.
I would think it would be best to store it with as near an empty tank as possible to avoid the fuel from sitting and swelling the tank.
Does this sound reasonable to anyone else?

jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on December 07, 2011, 11:05:04 AM
I have a practical question to ask.
Living in NJ I put my Monster away for the bulk of the season.
I would think it would be best to store it with as near an empty tank as possible to avoid the fuel from sitting and swelling the tank.
Does this sound reasonable to anyone else?

jimi

commonly held thought is if your tank is metal or coated, fill it up.  if it's plastic or uncoated, drain it for the winter.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 07, 2011, 12:39:51 PM
Or, if you can get fuel without ethanol a full tank with stabil.

A second option is ride through the winter.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 07, 2011, 12:54:05 PM
Or, if you can get fuel without ethanol a full tank with stabil.

 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2011, 01:05:07 PM
Or, if you can get fuel without ethanol a full tank with stabil.

A second option is ride through the winter.

i am beginning to think Stabil etc are a non starter.  I think they might help for a short period of time but for a stored bike would not help at all and given Stabil's primary ingredient is an alcohol, it might make things worse.

Just in case anyone missed this:

If anyone is concerned as to whether tank coatings will adhere and last with a nylon tank, I've got a whitepaper coming which looks at the specific forms of epoxy used in the Caswell and 3m products. 

Suffice to say, they are among the class of compounds considered "preferred adhesives" when used with polyamides. 

More later...




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 07, 2011, 01:28:10 PM
i am beginning to think Stabil etc are a non starter.  I think they might help for a short period of time but for a stored bike would not help at all and given Stabil's primary ingredient is an alcohol, it might make things worse.

One thing is certain. Stabil works to keep fuel systems from degrading and to maintain the volatility of the fuel for about a year. This is proven from decades of use, by me and others, especially collector car guys.

Now, whether a main component in Stabil is alcohol or not, the concentration to treat 3 1/2 U.S. Gal. of ethanol-free premium is 1.5 fluid oz.

Just based on my own experience, I do not like to think about my hoses and filter and pump in the tank drying out over the winter. Just my $0.02 of course.

Regards



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Capt baz on December 07, 2011, 02:14:59 PM
I was contacted today by Brian, Ducati service manager @ Razee's, where I purchased the bike new, & was told DNA authorized the tank replacement. I was told it would take 7-10 days to arrive. No charge & I could wait there for for the installation as it would take 1 1/2 hours to replace. From reporting it, to an answer, 2 weeks. I will post @ the completion of the replacement.

*Tank replaced @ no charge on 12/22/11. Took 1.5 hours & it matches perfectly. I was told to keep Star Tron in the fuel to minimize reaction from the ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 07, 2011, 07:07:25 PM
i am beginning to think Stabil etc are a non starter.  I think they might help for a short period of time but for a stored bike would not help at all and given Stabil's primary ingredient is an alcohol, it might make things worse.

Just in case anyone missed this:


Stabil or equal will help keep the volatiles in the fuel, helping the spring start up.  Much to my surprise, at least according to the MSDS, the brand Stabil is mostly petroleum distillates, the data sheet is amazingly vague.  As far as tank preservation I doubt it will help at all.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Pip on December 07, 2011, 07:16:18 PM
Stabil or equal will help keep the volatiles in the fuel, helping the spring start up.  Much to my surprise, at least according to the MSDS, the brand Stabil is mostly petroleum distillates, the data sheet is amazingly vague.  As far as tank preservation I doubt it will help at all.

Isn't there a Sta-Bil specific to ethanol related fuel? I thought it was supposed to take care of the rubber eating tendency, and it might help to prevent swollen tanks. It's green if I remember correctly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on December 07, 2011, 07:32:08 PM
Isn't there a Sta-Bil specific to ethanol related fuel? I thought it was supposed to take care of the rubber eating tendency, and it might help to prevent swollen tanks. It's green if I remember correctly.

Dunno, maybe, that is what they claim.  All I can say for sure is the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) states 95% petroleum distillates for all their fuel stabilizers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 07, 2011, 07:37:58 PM
Isn't there a Sta-Bil specific to ethanol related fuel? I thought it was supposed to take care of the rubber eating tendency, and it might help to prevent swollen tanks. It's green if I remember correctly.

The ethanol treatment isn't for storage but can be mixed with regular Stabil if required. Not sure how much good it will do you based on ducatiz's statements. Regular Stabil does inhibit corrosion and varnish and loss of volatility in fuel though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on December 10, 2011, 04:08:51 PM
Just came back from getting my replacement tank installed - no Caswell but I will try running the K100 ans see how it does - at least that way if something happens in the next 18 months or so I'm not screwed. Kudos to Jeff, Sophia and Jordan for getting it all straightened out with DNA.
All is happy in the metroplex (except it could be warmer).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CrashVR on December 10, 2011, 05:32:29 PM
Hello, I'm new here.  I'm looking at a '06 S2R.  The tank is just starting to show signs of swelling.  The rubber bumpers are not fitting on the frame properly. 

Two things, first I've heard different things from different people that have received information on the class action suit.  I've heard that they will only warranty tanks from 5 years from date of purchase, I've also heard 6 years, and finally that they have to replace any deformed tank no matter how old.  Can anybody clear this up for me?

Second, I was told that the cause is the charcoal canister that the tank vents into.  Basically that ethanol evaporates faster than gasoline, and proceeds to fill and "plug up" the canister essentially making it so that the tank can't vent forcing the tank to swell.  The Ducati owner that told me this said the nobody that has removed their charcoal canister have suffered from any tank swelling.  Is there any truth to this?  Thanks for any help!!



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 10, 2011, 06:01:55 PM
Just came back from getting my replacement tank installed - no Caswell but I will try running the K100 ans see how it does - at least that way if something happens in the next 18 months or so I'm not screwed. Kudos to Jeff, Sophia and Jordan for getting it all straightened out with DNA.
All is happy in the metroplex (except it could be warmer).

before you use that k100 you better look to see what's in it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 10, 2011, 08:33:14 PM
Hello, I'm new here.  I'm looking at a '06 S2R.  The tank is just starting to show signs of swelling.  The rubber bumpers are not fitting on the frame properly. 

Two things, first I've heard different things from different people that have received information on the class action suit.  I've heard that they will only warranty tanks from 5 years from date of purchase, I've also heard 6 years, and finally that they have to replace any deformed tank no matter how old.  Can anybody clear this up for me?

Second, I was told that the cause is the charcoal canister that the tank vents into.  Basically that ethanol evaporates faster than gasoline, and proceeds to fill and "plug up" the canister essentially making it so that the tank can't vent forcing the tank to swell.  The Ducati owner that told me this said the nobody that has removed their charcoal canister have suffered from any tank swelling.  Is there any truth to this?  Thanks for any help!!



1.  the settlement is not a done deal yet.  if it is ratified, the new warranty will be 5 years from date of purchase by the ORIGINAL OWNER or 18 months form the date of the finalized settlement, whichever is later.

2.  the charcoal canister claim is utter bullshit.  did the person who told you that bit about ethanol have a chemistry degree?

I took my canister off a few weeks after I got my 05 S2R.  I have had TWO tank replacements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CrashVR on December 11, 2011, 03:37:29 AM
Thanks, I had a feeling that was the case...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 11, 2011, 03:39:14 PM
the charcoal canister bit is laughable, at least.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CrashVR on December 11, 2011, 07:23:08 PM
I agree... I wish it was that simple though  :(  I love the bike, but I am concerned about tanks... What happens when they are no longer replacing them?!  $2000 for a tank?  That's crazy talk...  I'm thinking I would just get one of the CA cycle works tanks.  At least it matches the front fender.  I would probably then remove the bikini fairing and rear seat cowel and just make my own version of the Dark  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on December 11, 2011, 07:46:01 PM
I agree... I wish it was that simple though  :(  I love the bike, but I am concerned about tanks... What happens when they are no longer replacing them?!  $2000 for a tank?  That's crazy talk...  I'm thinking I would just get one of the CA cycle works tanks.  At least it matches the front fender.  I would probably then remove the bikini fairing and rear seat cowel and just make my own version of the Dark  [thumbsup]
That's the reasonable answer-like the one Ducati should have responded with. I too will purchase a CA Cycle Works tank if I'm ever faced with the choice of having to purchase a new tank. Unlike Ducati tanks, CA Cycle Works claims that theirs will not swell like pregnant dogs.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 12, 2011, 01:26:19 PM
For those of you interested in objecting to the settlement, please PM me YOUR FULL NAME AND  EMAIL ADDRESS.

I am preparing an objection to file if you want to sign an affidavit which "attaches" your objection to mine, let me know ASAP.

Deadline is Dec 27 to receive the objections by the court and the law firms.  That means it needs to be in the mail before then.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 12, 2011, 01:37:58 PM

Maybe. Can you post your "objection" so that we can review it? I'm certain that you could draft something more cogent than I could.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 12, 2011, 01:50:37 PM
The Ducati dealer that I bought my bike from closed their doors last week.  The next closest dealer is in ?Dallas? I think.  That means I'll have to ride it or haul it 7 hours there and back - assuming I don't have to make two trips.  It would be nice if a tank could be boxed up and mailed to a Ducati shop or DNA for evaluation/replacement if the nearest shop is several hundred miles away.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on December 12, 2011, 08:49:27 PM
The Ducati dealer that I bought my bike from closed their doors last week.  The next closest dealer is in ?Dallas? I think.  That means I'll have to ride it or haul it 7 hours there and back - assuming I don't have to make two trips.  It would be nice if a tank could be boxed up and mailed to a Ducati shop or DNA for evaluation/replacement if the nearest shop is several hundred miles away.

Bill - I was at AMS Sat getting mine done and Jeff was talking about the shop in OKC closing down - you might want to call him or Sophia and see if they can help you out logistically


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2011, 07:06:30 AM
The Ducati dealer that I bought my bike from closed their doors last week.  The next closest dealer is in ?Dallas? I think.  That means I'll have to ride it or haul it 7 hours there and back - assuming I don't have to make two trips.  It would be nice if a tank could be boxed up and mailed to a Ducati shop or DNA for evaluation/replacement if the nearest shop is several hundred miles away.

Call them and tell them your situation.  You may be able to get a waiver.  the downside is that the shop doesn't get the labor from Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2011, 07:08:14 AM
Maybe. Can you post your "objection" so that we can review it? I'm certain that you could draft something more cogent than I could.

I'm not sure that's a good idea for obvious reasons.  If people want to see what I'm writing up PM me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 13, 2011, 07:12:02 AM
do you have any prose?  the coffee is not doing its job this morning yet, i thought poetry might help get things moving...   :P  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2011, 07:16:02 AM
do you have any prose?  the coffee is not doing its job this morning yet, i thought poetry might help get things moving...   :P  

how about a limerick?

I bought a ducati, tank of plastic,
I thought that it looked quite fantastic,
I put some gas inside
and it became double-wide
ducati's response?  unenthusiastic.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 13, 2011, 07:17:04 AM
yahtzee!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 13, 2011, 07:24:57 AM
how about a limerick?

I bought a ducati, tank of plastic,
I thought that it looked quite fantastic,
I put some gas inside
and it became double-wide
ducati's response?  unenthusiastic.

You've been listening to "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" way too much.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2011, 07:36:03 AM
You've been listening to "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" way too much.

carlos, you can rest assured that has never sullied my meatus acusticus externus


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on December 14, 2011, 05:29:52 AM
how about a limerick?

I bought a ducati, tank of plastic,
I thought that it looked quite fantastic,
I put some gas inside
and it became double-wide
ducati's response?  unenthusiastic.

 [laugh] [wine]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 15, 2011, 06:10:08 AM
The Ducati dealer that I bought my bike from closed their doors last week.  The next closest dealer is in ?Dallas? I think.  That means I'll have to ride it or haul it 7 hours there and back - assuming I don't have to make two trips.  It would be nice if a tank could be boxed up and mailed to a Ducati shop or DNA for evaluation/replacement if the nearest shop is several hundred miles away.
take a picture of the latch, several in fact and emailed them to Dallas.  You never know, they might just approve it via email and only one trip would be in order.  Sad that OKC shut down.  Everyone there was nice.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 19, 2011, 12:10:29 PM
If anyone else wants to join my objection, I need to have your signed affidavit in by THURSDAY of this week.

PM me your name and email address.  I will send you back an affidavit.

You have to fax it back to me completed and notarized by THURSDAY

ducatizzy/izaak


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 27, 2011, 06:50:45 AM
Bad News guys....my Caswell coated tank is beginning to show signs of potential bloating....the areas near the seat on the sides is starting to look a bit wave-y...Perhaps I didn't coat it properly.  I'll haul it up to the dealer for a look this Spring.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 27, 2011, 07:02:40 AM
Sorry to hear about your coating, soemthing I really don't want to do and just one of the reasons from my objection. I sent my objection out last week, also copied AMA, and intend to continue to keep my legislators informed/bugged etc... - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 27, 2011, 07:39:17 AM
Was this a new tank or a used tank that you coated?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 27, 2011, 08:31:49 AM
Was this a new tank or a used tank that you coated?

This was a brand new tank.  The Caswell was not diluted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 27, 2011, 08:40:06 AM
This was a brand new tank.  The Caswell was not diluted.

yeah, that's pretty weird.  especially with a new tank, there shouldn't be any adhesion issues at all.  my tank had had gasoline in it for 2 months when i drained, cleaned and dried it.  over a year later now on the same coating.

how long has yours been coated and what are you going to do? 

i'd want to see inside that tank to see what the coating is doing.  if you can't see any obvious problems, then there may be gaps in the coating.. it is very hard to say.

there are formulations of epoxy that adhere directly to nylon without an prep, but with a virgin tank there should be any issue for almost any formulations.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 27, 2011, 10:49:44 AM
This is interesting as I am receiving a new tank (my third) this week.  I plan to trailer the bike to the dealership with an empty tank, so they will not fill my new tank with fuel.  This gives me the option to line a virgin tank once I get home.  Keep us posted CDawg.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 27, 2011, 11:30:02 AM
There's been a fair number of SC owners over on .MS that have reported tank swelling after their tanks had been coated for a while.  Still think I might be selling mine as soon as the new tank gets installed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 27, 2011, 11:32:18 AM
There's been a fair number of SC owners over on .MS that have reported tank swelling after their tanks had been coated for a while. 

Exactly! - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 28, 2011, 05:56:51 AM
how long has yours been coated and what are you going to do? 

I've had my second tank since middle of last summer.  To be honest, I'm getting to the point where I think I should just save up the $5k and replace it with a metal tank and be done with the drama.  I'm not particular to the monster tank...maybe the new panegale tank it can be made to fit nice.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 06:02:30 AM
There's been a fair number of SC owners over on .MS that have reported tank swelling after their tanks had been coated for a while.  Still think I might be selling mine as soon as the new tank gets installed.

i haven't heard any of this. 

i would like to know the particulars of their tank and coating.

the multi people i've been in touch with haven't had any issues at all -- over 2 years and counting,


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 28, 2011, 06:05:18 AM
To be honest, I'm getting to the point where I think I should just save up the $5k and replace it with a metal tank and be done with the drama. 
$5K?  You can get one of the Ducati Custom tank/body kits for $1700 and a few mods and you are done.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on December 28, 2011, 06:08:19 AM
Or one of those Japanese hand made aluminum tanks [drool]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 28, 2011, 06:52:07 AM
Or one of those Japanese hand made aluminum tanks [drool]

Yep, only $2344 delivered at today's conversion rate.  Add $258 for polishing.

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 28, 2011, 07:03:54 AM
So I'm actually saving $2.5K by going aluminum!  I'm going to see how bad the Caswell coated expansion gets over the winter, but a metal tank is likely in the future.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 07:09:13 AM
So I'm actually saving $2.5K by going aluminum!  I'm going to see how bad the Caswell coated expansion gets over the winter, but a metal tank is likely in the future.

are you draining the tank or just letting it sit like that?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 28, 2011, 07:22:21 AM
are you draining the tank or just letting it sit like that?

I'm going to let it sit in gas with Stabil.  I bought the bike in 2008 so I still have a couple of years on the emission warranty for a new one...I'm thinking if I can get another replacement tank and then ebay it to help pay for the metal tanks......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 08:23:43 AM
I'm going to let it sit in gas with Stabil.  I bought the bike in 2008 so I still have a couple of years on the emission warranty for a new one...I'm thinking if I can get another replacement tank and then ebay it to help pay for the metal tanks......

Stabil isn't going to help.  Isopropanol (alcohol) and naphtha.  It is good as a temporary solution to freshen gasoline, but so far the only additive I've see that has anything but alcohol, naphtha or kerosene as an ingredient is K100.  K100 is the only one willing to show me an outside test of their product as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 28, 2011, 08:39:12 AM
There is no easy solution, if there was Ducati and/or the dealers would have offered one. Like I said once before it is curious to me how the design of many of the new tanks has some sort of cover/panels over top of a fuel cell/bladder, that is true with other brands not just Ducati. So while I'm no chemical engineer, it's seems as though the OEMs knew about a potential problem and had to devise a way to use ugly material that cannot be painted or material they knew would expand without causing a safety issue and in both cases needed a way to cover it. Just MHO - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 08:42:06 AM
There is no easy solution, if there was Ducati and/or the dealers would have offered one. Like I said once before it is curious to me how the design of many of the new tanks has some sort of cover/panels over top of a fuel cell/bladder, that is true with other brands not just Ducati. So while I'm no chemical engineer, it's seems as though the OEMs knew about a potential problem and had to devise a way to use ugly material that cannot be painted or material they knew would expand without causing a safety issue and in both cases needed a way to cover it. Just MHO - Gene

I disagree on this.  The coating works if applied correctly.

Nylon-6 is 70+ years old and epoxies specifically made for Nylon-6 (and other polyamides) have been around for at least 2 decades -- the first polyamine hardener epoxies were developed in the 1930s.

More than one manufacturer makes polyamide-specific epoxy coatings and adhesives for industrial applications and they are all fuel/ethanol/water proof.

It's there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 28, 2011, 09:04:58 AM
I'm sure your right, that is why Ducati and/or the dealers are clamoring to coat our tanks. It's also why they replaced 2-3 tanks for some owners, before the lawsuit, instead of coating the tanks. It's a shame our good friend Bill and DMF member isn't still alive he would be the perfect guy to educate us on this and probably somebody Ducati and the courts would listen to. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 28, 2011, 09:07:40 AM
I'm sure your right, that is why Ducati and/or the dealers are clamoring to coat our tanks. It's also why they replaced 2-3 tanks for some owners, before the lawsuit, instead of coating the tanks. It's a shame our good friend Bill and DMF member isn't still alive he would be the perfect guy to educate us on this and probably somebody Ducati and the courts would listen to. - Gene


i smell sarcasm, though I think its misplaced.  Dealers and DNA aren't clamoring to coat the tanks for several related reasons: Cost, Unsupervised Third-Party Labor, Risk of Improper-Application, etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 09:14:13 AM
I'm sure your right, that is why Ducati and/or the dealers are clamoring to coat our tanks. It's also why they replaced 2-3 tanks for some owners, before the lawsuit, instead of coating the tanks. It's a shame our good friend Bill and DMF member isn't still alive he would be the perfect guy to educate us on this and probably somebody Ducati and the courts would listen to. - Gene

Dealers are in fact clamoring to do it, for $200-250 each.

As far as to why Acerbis or Ducati isn't doing it, no one can say.  What I can say, is that there are many manufacturers familiar with polyamide adhesives and they work, period.

Here is one:

http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesives-for-nylon.html (http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesives-for-nylon.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on December 28, 2011, 10:01:03 AM
I asked Ducati Indianapolis to coat my new tank that just came in.  I was told they will not coat it, I guess a conflict of interest with DNA.
But they will ship it out to a 3rd party for coating if I chose to do so.. ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 10:01:56 AM
I asked Ducati Indianapolis to coat my new tank that just came in.  I was told they will not coat it, I guess a conflict of interest with DNA.
But they will ship it out to a 3rd party for coating if I chose to do so.. ???

Few of the dealers coat it themselves, they ship it out.  There are only a few dealers that do it themselves.

There is no reason they can't, they just don't want to.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 28, 2011, 10:09:07 AM
Look I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone here but the discussion has been somewhat lopsided and I want everyone here to see/consider some different views. 1. There are cases of coated tanks still having issues. 2. The cost for Ducati to coat the tank with their labor, or a vendor under their supervision has to be less than replacing the tank 2, 3, and at least one case I know of 4 times. 3. HD is still doing replacement on XRs and they have not suggested any other solution, my guess is that they are going to stop after some time period but so far they have not said that. The tank on my XR has not shown any noticeable expansion as yet, like others have. 4. Assuming proper coating of the tank works, where is the dealer vendor that will do it and provide a lifetime warranty? CA Cycle will proivde such a warranty on their tanks and yes I know it's because of the material they use. 5. I have talked to multiple dealers, they want nothing to do with coating or those that will do not want to provided any sort of extended warranty, a 1 year warranty isn't sufficient IMHO. 6. I'm having less of a problem with my tanks than others are, the bikes are kept in an environmentally controlled area except when they are ridden locally or on a trip, and I also keep the tanks full. I'm guessing eventually the new tank on the S2R1000 is going to expand but that is 18-24 months away if it goes the way of the first tank, maybe longer since I now keep the bike stored when not in use. I'm looking for a permanent solution for the S2R and the HD and right now I'm not convinced on coating it. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 28, 2011, 10:17:09 AM
You can't compare with CA Cycleworks tanks - they aren't paint-able. Not even sticker-able.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 10:18:43 AM
Gene

I appreciate your point of view, always.

However, the only tanks I know of that have had problems after being coated are due to a bad coating job being done.  Either the prep of the tank, the mixing, or the coating hasn't been applied to the entire surface.  If there is even a small area of exposure, the tank could still absorb water and deform.  I have to assume that covering most of the inside will prevent deformation, but clearly, all of it is preferable.  Precipitate water will sink to the bottom, but condensate water will stick to the top until it drips down.

However, there is no doubt that the right coatings adhere and also no doubt that they are impervious to ethanol/water/fuel.

Dealers never give a warranty on aftermarket work like this, it's just not done.  If you get a dealer to install HC pistons, see what kind of warranty on your engine you get -- nothing. 

CA provides a warranty on their tanks because 1) he is the manufacturer and sole reseller and makes all the money off the sale and 2) he knows without a doubt the tank is impervious to water and ethanol.  In the case of a dealer, he isn't the maker of the coating nor the tank and is only making a small amount from the labor of coating the tank -- the economy of scale isn't there.  CA's warranty is a manufacturer warranty, not a dealer's.

Lastly, I think your storing your bike in a environmentally controlled area is probably the best prevention given the real culprit is water as in condensation or humidity. 



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 28, 2011, 10:31:46 AM
You can't compare with CA Cycleworks tanks - they aren't paint-able. Not even sticker-able.
I'm very aware of that as I indicated in a previous post and why after the dust settles with Ducati I'm likely going to replace the tanks with a metal one, like I have on my M900. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on December 28, 2011, 03:17:28 PM
The coating process takes a while to do--the coating process alone took me several hours of swishing, swirling, draining, and repeating.  I can see why Ducati doesn't do it themselves.  (In addition to the fact that if they did it, and it happened to fail, they couldn't claim their tanks with Acerbis).

Going forward, most have hidden or metal tanks, so it's really only an issue for the now-older bikes that had the plastic tanks.  It's a PITA, but as has been said before, either keep getting them replaced or just coat it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 28, 2011, 03:29:21 PM
Going forward, most have hidden or metal tanks, so it's really only an issue for the now-older bikes that had the plastic tanks.  It's a PITA, but as has been said before, either keep getting them replaced or just coat it.

I don't think you quite understand the gravity of the situation, or you are not current. If the class action settlement goes through you are not going to be able to continue to replace. It's also not clear what Ducati might do if the settlement does not go through. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xsephirot on December 28, 2011, 05:01:35 PM
I don't think you quite understand the gravity of the situation, or you are not current. If the class action settlement goes through you are not going to be able to continue to replace. It's also not clear what Ducati might do if the settlement does not go through. - Gene

+1. The current settlement proposal is complete bs. I'm hoping enough people wrote their rejection letters. It's hard to tell how many people did based on a couple of forums when I'm pretty sure the majority do not follow forums.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Fergus on December 28, 2011, 05:44:50 PM
I'm sorry to say I didn't do a rejection letter. Been so busy lately I let it slip. Sorry guys, I let you down.

That settlement is BS. A major defect is the fact that one of the requirements for replacement/repair is that it is already leaking. That's a safety issue and the expansion that causes the leak should be a preemptive repair.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 29, 2011, 03:11:18 AM
i haven't heard any of this. 

i would like to know the particulars of their tank and coating.

the multi people i've been in touch with haven't had any issues at all -- over 2 years and counting,

Here's one example:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/125688-caswell-prepped-tank-warping.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/125688-caswell-prepped-tank-warping.html)

I've seen a few other areas where people were talking about it as well, and will try to find them later.  There's been some talk on the SD world where one or two people have had their tanks coated and shown signs of swelling as well.  Granted, all of these are speaking to isolated incidents, and there is no way to tell if the coating was done properly or not, but it's still worrisome. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 29, 2011, 06:24:56 AM
Here's one example:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/125688-caswell-prepped-tank-warping.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/125688-caswell-prepped-tank-warping.html)

I've seen a few other areas where people were talking about it as well, and will try to find them later.  There's been some talk on the SD world where one or two people have had their tanks coated and shown signs of swelling as well.  Granted, all of these are speaking to isolated incidents, and there is no way to tell if the coating was done properly or not, but it's still worrisome. 

I think the issue is lack of coverage.  A poster in that thread says he put a bore scope into his tank and found uncovered areas after doing it the first time.  Adding the gel coat tint is a smart choice.

The thickness of the solution is a problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 29, 2011, 07:05:36 AM
Gel Coat Tint would be must for that reason!  (or a carbon/kevlar/aluminum tank as replacement!)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xsephirot on December 29, 2011, 10:06:48 AM
I think the issue is lack of coverage.  A poster in that thread says he put a bore scope into his tank and found uncovered areas after doing it the first time.  Adding the gel coat tint is a smart choice.

The thickness of the solution is a problem.

What people don't realize is that even spinning the caswell while coating it doesn't completely cover the tank. I saw another thread where Caswell recommended a couple oz. of some dilute so that it would be easier to spread.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on December 29, 2011, 02:12:31 PM
Gene

I appreciate your point of view, always.

However, the only tanks I know of that have had problems after being coated are due to a bad coating job being done.  Either the prep of the tank, the mixing, or the coating hasn't been applied to the entire surface.  If there is even a small area of exposure, the tank could still absorb water and deform.  I have to assume that covering most of the inside will prevent deformation, but clearly, all of it is preferable.  Precipitate water will sink to the bottom, but condensate water will stick to the top until it drips down.

However, there is no doubt that the right coatings adhere and also no doubt that they are impervious to ethanol/water/fuel.

Dealers never give a warranty on aftermarket work like this, it's just not done.  If you get a dealer to install HC pistons, see what kind of warranty on your engine you get -- nothing. 

CA provides a warranty on their tanks because 1) he is the manufacturer and sole reseller and makes all the money off the sale and 2) he knows without a doubt the tank is impervious to water and ethanol.  In the case of a dealer, he isn't the maker of the coating nor the tank and is only making a small amount from the labor of coating the tank -- the economy of scale isn't there.  CA's warranty is a manufacturer warranty, not a dealer's.

Lastly, I think your storing your bike in a environmentally controlled area is probably the best prevention given the real culprit is water as in condensation or humidity. 



If the coating works and is a viable solution then why won't DNA have them coated? They certainly could find a reputable shop to coat them - they don't mfg the tank in the first place but they warranty the tank? The cost of replacing another tank is 1/10the the cost of a new tank - of course I know they aren't paying $2K to the tank mfg but if it is a viable long term solution then why won;t they coat it and get a reputable shop to do it that will give them some type of warranty for the volume?  My guess is the coating isn;t a good long term fix or else Duc would have taken the economical way out - just my thoughts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 29, 2011, 03:09:59 PM
This reminds me of the flaking rocker problem a few years back.  Ducati replaced the rockers but a friend had to go aftermarket to finally fix the problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 30, 2011, 06:35:31 AM
If the coating works and is a viable solution then why won't DNA have them coated? They certainly could find a reputable shop to coat them - they don't mfg the tank in the first place but they warranty the tank? The cost of replacing another tank is 1/10the the cost of a new tank - of course I know they aren't paying $2K to the tank mfg but if it is a viable long term solution then why won;t they coat it and get a reputable shop to do it that will give them some type of warranty for the volume?  My guess is the coating isn;t a good long term fix or else Duc would have taken the economical way out - just my thoughts.

Homologation. DNA can't just coat the tanks before selling the bike. It would only make sense if they sold it as "after market".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 30, 2011, 10:00:34 AM
+1.  In this case Ducati is the manufacturer even though there is a third party supplier. Very likely they've got to submit homologated samples for inspection and whatnot. 

Perhaps only way to make it truly uniform at the manufacturing level is to dip/submerge bare tank prior to prep/paint, which would require an intermediate additional surface prep step prior to paint booth.   (Just having uncaffienated brainstorm session while watching a bit of foosball)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 30, 2011, 10:02:57 AM
there are multiple ways to apply a coating.  the stuff we get from retailers isn't the same as what a manufacturer would use -- they even have stuff that can be spray-applied which comes out a bit liquid and thickens very quickly.

tons of NIOSH issues with that stuff as it is apparently a formic acid adhesion promoter, but that's why it can be so liquid-like.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 31, 2011, 09:19:28 AM
So, I had my third tank installed yesterday.  I trailered the bike to the dealership and had them leave the tank dry.  I also bought a quick disconnect that I can use to make draining the tank easier.  So, now I have a decision to make.  

Do I:

A)  Line the tank with Caswells, hope for complete coverage, and risk the remaining warranty
B)  Line the tank with another coating, hope for complete coverage, and risk the remaining warranty
C)  Use K100 snake oil
D)  Drain the tank after each ride and transfer the fuel to my BMW
E)  All of the above?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 31, 2011, 11:17:32 AM
A)  Line the tank with Caswells, hope for complete coverage, and risk the remaining warranty
B)  Line the tank with another coating, hope for complete coverage, and risk the remaining warranty
C)  Use K100 snake oil
D)  Drain the tank after each ride and transfer the fuel to my BMW
E)  All of the above?

I would use the Caswells, but I would find a gelcoat color to tint it with so I could see the coverage.  It works.

Also, I have called K100 snake oil but after they sent me some documentation from a 3rd party that tested it, I am not so sure.  It looks like it may actually work to sequester water at least temporarily.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 31, 2011, 11:19:44 AM
I'd use the Caswells and thin it to make coverage a no brainer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 31, 2011, 11:33:10 AM
I'd use the Caswells and thin it to make coverage a no brainer.

yeah, looks like xylene is the right thinner for it...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 31, 2011, 11:38:14 AM
yeah, looks like xylene is the right thinner for it...
I'm still not convinced that's the only 'right' thinner, but if people are happy using that and the manufacturer is good with it then I'm not going to argue.

I use what I have and haven't seen any issues.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 31, 2011, 11:53:35 AM
I'm still not convinced that's the only 'right' thinner, but if people are happy using that and the manufacturer is good with it then I'm not going to argue.

I use what I have and haven't seen any issues.

how many have you coated and what are you using?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 31, 2011, 12:45:51 PM
how many have you coated and what are you using?
I've done 3 or 4 and I'm using a urethane reducer.

All reducers are a blend of solvents like xylene, toluene, etc. I don't have the msds for the product I'm using.

The urethane reducers are the highest quality due to lack of water in the blend. Activated urethanes will not tolerate any of it. It will kill the cure of activated products, while it creates the cure of products like POR.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 31, 2011, 04:39:35 PM
I have visions of ruined exterior paint finish from sloshing and draining solvents.  What is the technique to protect the paint finish?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 31, 2011, 05:17:27 PM
I have visions of ruined exterior paint finish from sloshing and draining solvents.  What is the technique to protect the paint finish?

-Jeff
Lots of tape and proper sealing of the openings.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 31, 2011, 06:26:32 PM
Lots of tape and proper sealing of the openings.

Safest to fill and drain out the fuel pump opening?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 31, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
Safest to fill and drain out the fuel pump opening?

-Jeff
I have a rubber plug that fits the filler, and I make block off plates for the different pump flanges from Plexiglas.

I do fill and drain from the bottom.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on January 02, 2012, 02:47:28 PM
Not to keep beating a dead horse with this thread, but I just finally noticed my tank buldging. All the same things, ripples, rubber mount on right side off the frame rail, dings in each side from the bars, cant open the latch and finally pushing aganist my ignition. My bike is a 2005 with under 5000 miles, I know low miles but I have other bikes. Will I still qualify for a replacement? I have the Class Action letter, and it says good for 18 months past decision (Sept 2011) so I think I should be good? After a new tank I will just try to find a gas station with no Ethanol or get it coated. Thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 02, 2012, 03:33:12 PM
the settlement hasn't been finalized


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on January 02, 2012, 04:55:14 PM
Thanks Ducatiz, well that sucks. Guess I'm out of luck in getting a tank. Maybe I'll bite the bullet and buy one now and maybe I'll be reimbursed when it's finalized?? Either way I love the bike and was thinking of getting a used Sport 1000, might have to change my mind.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 02, 2012, 05:21:09 PM
no take it to your dealer.  you may get a new tank without much hassle based on your description.  do it fast.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2012, 10:18:58 AM
The fairness hearing in the Settlement is tomorrow.  I have no idea what the judge is going to do -- his history would suggest he likes settlements a lot.

I cannot say what effect the objections will have.  There were a paltry number and Girard Gibbs made a point of that in their response to the objections, specifically pointing out that I have over 400 people signed up the Yahoo group, but "only" got 15 people to send in their objections.  It's a valid point.  If you can't get off your ass to send in a pre-filled out form to me....

In their response to me, they got completely wrong several points, which I now wish I could have arranged to be there to correct.

1.  I did not claim that ethanol is not involved in the problem.  I correctly pointed out that ethanol ALONE is not the problem.   Water is the problem, ethanol exacerbates this because it is hydrophilic.  I also correctly pointed out that the various manufacturers of PA6 Nylon claim that it is impervious to alcohols.

2.  They claim that one of the exhibits I attached (the Minnesota E20 study) supports that ethanol does cause expansion.  I pointed out that the study used a testing standard with a 50% ambient humidity requirement.  Perhaps I should have made that clearer, but the point was that the test did NOT look at inducing problems with PA6 Nylon with ethanol ALONE.  Also, in the study, they used a hypothetical "test mixture" of gasoline (E10/E20) with 1% volume of water added to simulate pump gasoline.  Moreover, EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER of PA6 (BASF for instance) report that PA6 absorbs up to 10% by volume of water but report negligible absorption of alcohols including ethanol.  The longer the polymer, the less absorption -- Nylon 12 absorbs far less than Nylon 6.

3.  I stated, and provided an exhibit, that vendors sell PA6/Nylon specific epoxy formulations which are a) designed to fully adhere to all polyamides (i.e. Nylon, teflon, etc) and b) are fully resistant to fuel, alcohols and water.  They proffered the prior statement by a witness (not publicly available) that epoxy coatings would not work and refer to an unsourced comment by someone at 3M that their epoxy coating products may not be appropriate for nylons.  That misses the point and ignores the evidence.  There are dozens of formulations of epoxy and there are at least a handful that work perfectly with nylon. 

I can't say what will come, the judge may actually read my objection and exhibits and realize that the Girard Gibbs response simply misstates some of the facts and claims, but I don't know what likelihood there is for that. 

I just wish more of you would have sent in objections.  As it is, about 25-30 people objected out of about 30-40,000 motorcycles affected.  I think the actual number affected is on the lower end of that range, so maybe about 30,000 bikes.  that means that 1/10th of 1 percent objected. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on January 05, 2012, 11:06:05 AM
In a class action suit, isn't the point that a few can speak for many?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2012, 11:55:01 AM
In a class action suit, isn't the point that a few can speak for many?

thats exactly the point but the reality is that the vast majority of suits are driven by attorneys in search of a plaintiff rather that plaintiffs in search of a solution.

this lawsuit is no different. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on January 05, 2012, 01:14:32 PM
Once the settlement is done, I'm going to lock this thread, maybe delete it.  I'm not happy right now.

I would not delete the thread.  There is much valuable information on these 142 pages that could benefit a future owner. 

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on January 05, 2012, 01:52:34 PM
So as it stands once (if) ratified we have 18 months for owners of older models to get another tank and after that it's on our own dime correct?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2012, 02:54:39 PM
So as it stands once (if) ratified we have 18 months for owners of older models to get another tank and after that it's on our own dime correct?

the replacement tank will have a 6 month warranty


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on January 05, 2012, 06:40:51 PM
So IF it is approved:

1. The law firm cashes in.
2. Ducati's liability will have a defined boundary/cost.
3. Owners with freshly fouled tanks will be SOL in 18 months.
4. Uninvolved/unaware owners get the door shut in their face because of something they had nothing to do with.
5. All plastic tanked Ducati values drop by half+.
6. Plastic Ducatis gather dust as the supply of good tanks runs out.

It looks (to me) like the law firm was in reality fighting for Ducati instead of the plaintiffs.  Corporations generally do not like having open-ended liabilities like this hanging over their heads.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on January 05, 2012, 06:56:48 PM
I cannot say what effect the objections will have.  There were a paltry number and Girard Gibbs made a point of that in their response to the objections, specifically pointing out that I have over 400 people signed up the Yahoo group, but "only" got 15 people to send in their objections.  It's a valid point.  If you can't get off your ass to send in a pre-filled out form to me....

Pretty much confirms my thoughts that (on average) people in the states are lazy sacks of shit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on January 05, 2012, 09:18:37 PM
Pretty much confirms my thoughts that (on average) people in the states are lazy sacks of shit.



[popcorn]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 05, 2012, 09:34:15 PM
Pretty much confirms my thoughts that (on average) people in the states are lazy sacks of shit.

ben is filled with the milk, nay.. the CREAM of human lovingkindness...lol


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Ak1nza on January 05, 2012, 09:36:31 PM
I've followed this thread since April of last year when I bought my S2R 800.  I didn't know of the expanding tank issue before I bought it and only learned of it because I saw that the tank wasn't sitting on the rubber stops.  I was pretty disappointed when I found out it was an issue with the tank being plastic.  Anyways I signed up for the Yahoo board as soon as I found out and I also submitted my objection to Ducatiz.  Some people may have been lazy or thought that the next guy was going to object and that there would have been enough people, but the bottom line is we aren't where we are if it wasn't for Ducatiz.  

Anyways, I got my replacement tank under warranty pretty quick after I learned of the issue.  I also had the dealer coat the brand new tank with the Caswell prior to it going on my bike.  I haven't had any issues with expansion on the new tank and the dealer has done dozens of them and told me they haven't seen any issues after coating even after years so I'm hoping I won't have to think about the tank for a long time.

Whatever the result tomorrow, just wanted to say Thanks Ducatiz.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on January 05, 2012, 10:03:22 PM
I've followed this thread since April of last year when I bought my S2R 800.  I didn't know of the expanding tank issue before I bought it and only learned of it because I saw that the tank wasn't sitting on the rubber stops.  I was pretty disappointed when I found out it was an issue with the tank being plastic.  Anyways I signed up for the Yahoo board as soon as I found out and I also submitted my objection to Ducatiz.  Some people may have been lazy or thought that the next guy was going to object and that there would have been enough people, but the bottom line is we aren't where we are if it wasn't for Ducatiz.  

Anyways, I got my replacement tank under warranty pretty quick after I learned of the issue.  I also had the dealer coat the brand new tank with the Caswell prior to it going on my bike.  I haven't had any issues with expansion on the new tank and the dealer has done dozens of them and told me they haven't seen any issues after coating even after years so I'm hoping I won't have to think about the tank for a long time.

Whatever the result tomorrow, just wanted to say Thanks Ducatiz.  

How many years has this been going on?  How long have they been coating tanks?  I thought that was a recent discovery?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on January 05, 2012, 10:06:29 PM
the replacement tank will have a 6 month warranty

what if you already have a replacement tank? I thought the warranty went for 18 months afterwards - i.e- if I have a problem next Jan since I got my replacement before the settlement I should be able to get another and then 6 months after that> Or are you saying that the 6 months started when I got my last replacement? this is the 3rd for this bike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on January 06, 2012, 03:18:13 AM
How many years has this been going on?  How long have they been coating tanks?  I thought that was a recent discovery?

I've been dealing with this on my '06 SC (just had its 4th tank installed) for over four years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on January 06, 2012, 03:20:13 AM
ben is filled with the milk, nay.. the CREAM of human lovingkindness...lol

Pretty much.  But seriously, why else wouldn't people take the time to do something about it.  Hell, you did 99% of the legwork for us.  People were quick to arms with protests of the original issue, and the proposed settlement, but didn't want to stop watching Jersey Shore long enough to fax a form?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on January 06, 2012, 06:46:24 AM
Iz-
   Keep us posted on the outcome.  I'm certain you will.  Just for trivial information, all three parties ought to have received my objection to the original settlement;  not sure if it was one of the 25-30 you noted.

Regardless, I'm not optimistic on any real fix by the sound of what's been posted to date (in the entire 140+ page thread).  Time will tell.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: MsTek on January 06, 2012, 08:09:04 AM
I must have done something wrong...

I need to get a new tank- mine is starting to have issues and when I spoke to the dealer, they basically shrugged.  What do I do?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 06, 2012, 08:10:49 AM
I must have done something wrong...

I need to get a new tank- mine is starting to have issues and when I spoke to the dealer, they basically shrugged.  What do I do?

go to another dealer or call DNA and complain.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 06, 2012, 09:45:59 AM
I've gone thru the declarations in support of the settlement that were filed so far.

I really wish Ducati had released some of the technical testing they had done instead of making everyone (me) flounder about and waste time...

So they (Acerbis) did in fact test Caswells (using 100% ethanol and temperature cycling) and found that it separated.  I don't have any information as to the validity of the testing (i.e. how did they apply it, was it a new tank, why did they choose 100% ethanol instead of proper E10, etc).

My gut reaction is that using 100% ethanol invalidates the test because it's not something the tank would ever have in contact.  Using gasoline with 15% ethanol would have been appropriate to account for the differences in regional formulations of gasoline, but using 100% doesn't make sense except to show that the coating is incompatible with pure ethanol, not surprising considering how aggressive it is.  

Does this mean Caswell's is a failure?  I don't know.  I know multiple folks with that coating and are doing fine after many miles and many hot summers and cold winters on the road.  Failure testing just shows something CAN fail, it doesn't offer too much useful information as to real world application.  

I would like to see the same sort of temperature cycling test done with proper gasoline with no more than 15-20% ethanol and 1% water, which is a more realistic test methodology.   I'm not going to say Caswell's is a failure, but I will say that people should be extra careful to apply it correctly and to thin it with nylon-compatible reducer to ensure coverage.  Double coating is probably in order.  Oh, and don't put 100% ethanol into your tank [roll]

The one thing I've noticed is they are trying to paint all epoxy coatings with the same brush.  My objection specifically referred to an epoxy coating designed for polyamides (which caswell's may not be) but they don't respond to it.   RelTek in California sells a formulation that is designed for polyamides including PA6.

One criticism was that the coating and the tank won't expand and contract at the same rate, which may be true for some formulations, but the ones I've found specifically retain elasticity.  Which means they ahve to be applied when the tank is in it's normal state and not expanded.

I'm hesitant to accept without some support their testing of Caswells.  I understand the issue, but I know nothing of how the coatings were applied or by whom and under what conditions.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xsephirot on January 06, 2012, 11:01:55 AM
Reading thru the settlement it seems they want to offer a replacement tank that is smaller so that if (and when) it does expand that the tank won't deform. Are there any other issues that would be considered a safety issue if the tank retains on its rubber mounts and the latch is able to latch?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on January 06, 2012, 11:26:25 AM
RelTek in California sells a formulation that is designed for polyamides including PA6.

Has anyone lined a Ducati fuel tank with the RelTek stuff?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 06, 2012, 11:29:06 AM
Has anyone lined a Ducati fuel tank with the RelTek stuff?

-Jeff

No.  they don't sell it the same way, and i've been trying to get them to.  they sell it as an adhesive package only and as such, the price is too high.  you'd need about 500ml diluted and mixed to use in the tank.  they package it for small applications.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 06, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
I've gone thru the declarations in support of the settlement that were filed so far.

So, from what you've seen thus far, does anyone acknowledge that ethanol attracts water and that it's a given that PA6 absorbs water? And as you said in your objection, water is a common contaminant of pump gas? How then is PA6 "fit for purpose"?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 06, 2012, 07:32:29 PM
So, from what you've seen thus far, does anyone acknowledge that ethanol attracts water and that it's a given that PA6 absorbs water? And as you said in your objection, water is a common contaminant of pump gas? How then is PA6 "fit for purpose"?

They outright claim that I'm wrong about the direct ethanol > PA6 interaction.  The funny thing is that they point to the Minnesota E20 study, but I've spoken with the authors and they said they used a test regimen which required both a) 1% water to be added to the fuel and b) a relative humidity of 50%.  The authors told me they could not guarantee that the observed expansion was due to the ethanol itself and since the material absorbed water "aggressively" that it "probably" was the water instead. 

I tested this hypothesis on my own using E85 fuel in a low humidity cabinet.  Active dessicants kept the humidity below 10%.  Using the E85 in a test tank, there were no significant changes in the tank's circumference.  After 2 months of this, I added 60-70% humidity.  The tank started deforming within 1 week, and the tank circumference expanded to about 10% of its original girth (vertical around the sides).

What ethanol does is attract more water than pure gasoline or ambient humidity does alone. 

Plenty of resources on the web which indicate what I am saying:
http://www.pkkaps.dk/mat-pa6_uk.html (http://www.pkkaps.dk/mat-pa6_uk.html) (resistant to alcohols, not resistant to hydrolysis)

http://www.distrupol.com/images/A_Rough_Guide_to_Chemical_Resistance.pdf (http://www.distrupol.com/images/A_Rough_Guide_to_Chemical_Resistance.pdf) (polyamides resistant to all alcohols)

http://www.plastictroubleshooter.com/ThePlasticTroubleshooter/chemical_resist.htm (http://www.plastictroubleshooter.com/ThePlasticTroubleshooter/chemical_resist.htm)  (good resistance to weak acids and alcohols)

and so forth..

I don't want to say their experts flat out lied about it, but there is very little to suggest that PA6 is anything but "resistant" to alcohols including ethanol (and a weak solution of it at that at 10%) and plenty to suggest that PA6 aggressively absorbs water.

When I talked to the Minnesota E20 authors, I asked about modifying the test regimen to use a humidity of near zero and a water contamination of 0% water and they said they could do it but of course, I'd have to pay to get them to do it (and publish).  If Ducati really wanted to fight this, they could have done it and demonstrated (as I did) that PA6 doesn't really react much to the ethanol ITSELF but rather the water that the ethanol is carrying.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 06, 2012, 08:37:56 PM

Sorry if I'm being dense, but how does Ducati justify using a PA6 tank which aggressively absorbs water and subsequently deforms and how is PA6 then a suitable plastic for containing fuel which is likely to contain water, whether by ethanol attraction in high humidity or as just a contaminant of fuel in the typical gas station tank?

In other words, how are they passing off PA6 as "fit for purpose" when, as a given, fuel will contain water?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 06, 2012, 08:39:23 PM
Sorry if I'm being dense, but how does Ducati justify using a PA6 tank which aggressively absorbs water and subsequently deforms and how is PA6 then a suitable plastic for containing fuel which is likely to contain water, whether by ethanol attraction in high humidity or as just a contaminant of fuel in the typical gas station tank?

In other words, how are they passing off PA6 as "fit for purpose" when, as a given, fuel will contain water?

It's an approved material by EPA/NHTSA.  That's all I've got.  

My guess is that approval for car and motorcycle fuel cels is probably the same schedule without regard to stuff like this.  

I mean, who cares if your gas tank on your SUV expands some provided the sender and pump don't fall out (although the tanks leaked on Nissan Xterras for this very reason)...  but a bike is of course different.

I think PA6 would be fine if it was coated.  They went to a lot of measures to try to deny the suggestion that an epoxy coating would work, but their work shows a very shoddy approach.  They coated a tank using Caswell's without any regard to what might be an ideal sort of coating procedure (probably used the box instructions) and then subjected it to 100% ethanol with heat cycle.

I don't understand why they used 100% ethanol.  It's unrealistic.  They should have also exposed it to plutonium.

Likewise, they point out places where they claim the material separated, but from my experience there are a BUNCH of bubbles in the surface of the tank (inner) and those look exactly like those bubble artifacts covered over with Caswell's to me.  __> (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/th_adfe6eb2.jpg) (http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/adfe6eb2.jpg) (tank is MY tank before I removed the bubbles)

When I coated my tank, i spent hours with an exacto knife removing those "pimples" so the caswells would bond to the surface under the bubble, not the bubble itself.

They also specifically did not mention nor reply to the link and attachment from RelTek which makes epoxies SPECIFICALLY for polyamide polymers.  --> http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesives-for-nylon.html (http://www.reltekllc.com/adhesives-for-nylon.html)

The correct epoxy will bond, permanently.  They have customers with their epoxy adhesive coating on polyamide parts which are submerged in all kind of crap and the coating remains flexible, resisting water, fuels, alcohols,etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on January 07, 2012, 08:44:20 AM
no take it to your dealer.  you may get a new tank without much hassle based on your description.  do it fast.

Wanted to update on my status with my tank, if anyone is intrested...
Just got back from my dealer, chilly 30 minute ride each way. They wanted to just do the bracket/ seat replacement fix on it. They said because of the lawsuit they are no longer replacing tanks. I explained that I wanted a new one and planned to only use nonethnol fuel. In all fairness the head of service was cool and would see what he could do about replacing the tank. I feel that I will not be getting a replacement tank. >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 07, 2012, 09:15:23 AM
Wanted to update on my status with my tank, if anyone is intrested...
Just got back from my dealer, chilly 30 minute ride each way. They wanted to just do the bracket/ seat replacement fix on it. They said because of the lawsuit they are no longer replacing tanks. I explained that I wanted a new one and planned to only use nonethnol fuel. In all fairness the head of service was cool and would see what he could do about replacing the tank. I feel that I will not be getting a replacement tank. >:(

it's interesting they say that given it's not even finalized.  ask them who their attorney is.  your bike would qualify for a replacement tank under the terms of the extended warranty in the settlement anyway.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on January 07, 2012, 09:50:58 AM
it's interesting they say that given it's not even finalized.  ask them who their attorney is.  your bike would qualify for a replacement tank under the terms of the extended warranty in the settlement anyway.
Ask who the attorney for the dealership is? Any statements I can give the dealership to prove that I would qualify for the tank replacement? Sorry for being a PIA on this, I was just hoping to get a tank thats not bloated on it before summer. I already planned on purchasing a 14 gallon tank to fill with ethanol free fuel so not to have to have this happen again.

I would think installing the bracket, the new bumpers and a new seat would cost more than replacing the tank..... but I guess they would not have to worry about dealing with this in the future. The service guy told me that my tank was expanded as much as it would get and that it would not expand anymore. Is this true? Even if this is true and the brackets and seat work, I'm still not happy about the  divits on each side of the tank where my bars hit before I turned the stoppers down.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 07, 2012, 11:07:05 AM
tiz,


re: approved material - along the same lines for suv's and the like, since its hidden, cosmetic deformations are no concern - it can expand and contract to heart's/humidity's content and is placed in appropriate mounts to allow for such movement.   So it can be approved but should only be approved for something where the installation is in no way like that of a motorcycles at issue.

i think what i may have missed here is, why the sole focus on coating?  So they proved that pure ethanol can harm a single particular type of coating.  its unrealistic and thus a poor representation for their argument, but 'big deal' - even if correct, they only proved that a single type of coating was insufficient to fix the problem, they did not prove all coatings would be ineffective nor did they offer any other solution. 

after checking with the bike we picked up recently, which is in shambles in the garage, vin shows its not within the affected years. i don't have the tank actually (got frame/swingarm/motor only), but if the VIN was within correct year range, I would have otherwise filed an objection based on the VIN to show objection to the proposed settlement. Since i could not object as a member of the class, I did write a letter to the attorneys involved expressing my general disapproval of the settlement and pointing out the lack of meaningful solution.  i tried the spaghetti solution (toss stuff at the wall until something sticks), I also briefly pointed out the ethical responsibility of zealously advocating for their client, which includes providing a solution that benefits the client.   as it stands, the proposed remedy does not provide the clients with appropriate redress.

i currently do not have the time to investigate how this proposed settlement, if/when approved, would affect future claims stemming from breach of warranty, tort claims for strict product liability, or breach of warranty of suitability/fitness for a particular purpose.  But I suspect an affected-customer (sufficiently upset) could find another avenue to bring a claim.  Some of these claims, if available, could potentially be brought at the dealer-to-consumer transaction level ("i came in, i told you i wanted to ride a bike on public roads, under your guidance I purchased X model, and it turns out to not be suitable for such use because the gas tank cannot be filled with gasoline. you advised me incorrectly, dealer and thus breached this warranty").  This might really put a thorn between dealers and Ducati North America, because dealers would be stuck with a bill that the factory should-have/could-have resolved at this juncture.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: scduc on January 07, 2012, 01:57:24 PM
With the lastest email I received about the settlement, it pretty much looks like we owners are screwed. I am to blame, as I did not object the Ducati's proposal. My feeling was that there were only 400 or so complaints and who knows how many bikes sold over the period of question and reality is with those few numbers, the courts really have no option but to decide in favor of Ducati. Looks like the Caswell option will be a must. Unless someone manufactures an aftermarket tank that looks like stock. Very doubtful at best. Can only hope that the new bikes do not end up with this issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 08, 2012, 08:21:42 AM
i currently do not have the time to investigate how this proposed settlement, if/when approved, would affect future claims stemming from breach of warranty, tort claims for strict product liability, or breach of warranty of suitability/fitness for a particular purpose.  But I suspect an affected-customer (sufficiently upset) could find another avenue to bring a claim.  Some of these claims, if available, could potentially be brought at the dealer-to-consumer transaction level ("i came in, i told you i wanted to ride a bike on public roads, under your guidance I purchased X model, and it turns out to not be suitable for such use because the gas tank cannot be filled with gasoline. you advised me incorrectly, dealer and thus breached this warranty").  This might really put a thorn between dealers and Ducati North America, because dealers would be stuck with a bill that the factory should-have/could-have resolved at this juncture.

You might be onto something here as you are describing my visit to the dealer, demo ride, etc. In fact, I made a point of asking the question about tanks on the new bikes. The dealer, whom I trust, (takes one to know one ;)), told me that DNA had told him that the tank issue was resolved. Apparently not.

Dealers represent a product, they don't make them. If you sue the dealer, he will in turn sue Ducati and Ducati's lawyers will defend the suit locally; at least that's the way it works in the car biz. At State level Ducati would settle or lose this one IMO. Unfortunately, this costs $$$ and it doesn't get the bikes fixed unless a large group of people all over the country start to file similar suits. THEN you'd see some serious action. If a few settle, they get some money and damages but then have no Ducati. No fun there...

This whole thing leaves me scratching my head. The USA represents a huge chunk of Ducati's annual sales. This is very poor PR. The last vehicle brand I sold switched to plastic tanks in 1990 and retroactively replaced all metal tanks in previously sold vehicles. No idea what plastic that was, but we had no tank issues afterwards with the sole exception of a new vehicle launch in 2003. In that case, some tanks could "burp" during fill-up because of defective manufacture (internal emissions line pinched). Less than 10% were affected but ALL those tanks were replaced by the manufacturer, T.I. Engineering. Who needs THAT kind of press?!

I'd be curious to know what Nissan did about their PA6 problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on January 08, 2012, 05:54:00 PM
Wanted to update on my status with my tank, if anyone is intrested...
Just got back from my dealer, chilly 30 minute ride each way. They wanted to just do the bracket/ seat replacement fix on it. They said because of the lawsuit they are no longer replacing tanks. I explained that I wanted a new one and planned to only use nonethnol fuel. In all fairness the head of service was cool and would see what he could do about replacing the tank. I feel that I will not be getting a replacement tank. >:(

Call John Berstein or Bersen (something like that) at DNA and tell him -as of 3 weeks ago they were covering them - tell him the dealers name - might want to call the dealer first and tell them you are calling DNA too - they might rethink their position.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 08, 2012, 06:32:42 PM
Call John Berstein or Bersen (something like that) at DNA and tell him -as of 3 weeks ago they were covering them - tell him the dealers name - might want to call the dealer first and tell them you are calling DNA too - they might rethink their position.

Jon Berntsen.  he's a CSR


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 08, 2012, 07:16:07 PM
if they screw owners I'll be done with Ducati once I'm tired of the S4R.  What a pitty because I love the brand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 08, 2012, 07:31:05 PM
The sum of it is this:

Ducati will continue to offer coverage for the longer of 6 years from purchase OR 18 months after the settlement is final. 

Depending on the model of your bike you will either get:

1.  A tank replacement in situations where the aesthetics of the bike are affected with a smaller tank.
2.  Modifications to the tank mount to permit expansion where aesthetics are not affected but tank mounting is.
3.  Where your bars hit the tank, your turning stops will be adjusted.
4.  Where your seat presses against the tank, you'll get a shorter seat.


If you get a replacement tank, that tank will be warranted for an additional 6 months.

That's the summary of it.  Details are spelt out in the notices mailed.

I see this as Ducati doing what it's done already:  offering to modify mount if the tank isn't too badly expanded, and replacing tanks where it is.  The main differences are the smaller tank and the shorter seat. 

If anyone is curious as to the testing done by Ducati and Acerbis as to the coatings, I can email you the PDF of the declarations with the procedure.  You can judge for yourselves if it's a valid test or not.  I've already already emailed with some fuel testing folks and will be talking to them later this week, but from the description I sent them of the Acerbis test method, it doesn't sound like it would pass muster in a bona fide testing lab.

Some of the docs are pretty big, I might find a place to upload them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 08, 2012, 08:51:47 PM
2.  Modifications to the tank mount to permit expansion where aesthetics are not affected but tank mounting is.
3.  Where your bars hit the tank, your turning stops will be adjusted.
4.  Where your seat presses against the tank, you'll get a shorter seat.

All horseshit!  Lets limit the bike's ability by adjusting the steering stops.  Granted these bikes don't turn worth a shit in slow turns but still all of the above are unacceptable.
I would NEVER settle for paying $15 to $20K and let them do this to me.  Lets hope February's decision comes in favor of the owners.  I wish someone would step in and buy majority share again like TGP.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 09, 2012, 04:55:32 AM
All horseshit!  Lets limit the bike's ability by adjusting the steering stops.  Granted these bikes don't turn worth a shit in slow turns but still all of the above are unacceptable.
I would NEVER settle for paying $15 to $20K and let them do this to me.  Lets hope February's decision comes in favor of the owners.  I wish someone would step in and buy majority share again like TGP.

Well, it's the same thing they've done up to now... it just puts a clock on how long they'll do it for.  bear in mind that they are taking the position that the tank deformation is an aesthetic problem, not a product defect, thus it is covered by the warranty not by product defect laws.   I am not saying I agree with that, just that's the point of view of the settlement.

Ducati is paying $800,000 (plus the cost of the tanks to date and it's legal expenses) to make this problem go away in 18 months.

I can't say I blame them from a corporate perspective, but for a company of 1100+/- people, it's a questionable way of dealing with it. 

By their own numbers, there are 50,000 bikes in the USA alone that are affected.  That means world wide, how many?  150?  No idea.  Point is, that's a LOT of people to turn your back on.

I know they don't feel this is "turning your back on" but the reality is that after the 18mo warranty is gone, if your tank blows up, what do you do?  buy a $1500 tank (of the same material) to put on your $2000 bike?

:-/

I've got a 35 year old bike in my garage with a solid tank.  It just needs to be painted.  That's how long a gas tank should last -- the life of the bike and then some.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: MsTek on January 09, 2012, 06:12:05 AM
I am going to ping my dealer tomorrow about getting the new tank.  I am the second owner of the bike but still... She is starting to warp now.  Their excuse was that because of my bike's color, it would be hard to replace.  I am sure someone here on the board could match the factory specs and paint it for me.  I just want a tank that stands the test of time because as I've said, I have no intention on selling that bike. I will get another one but I am not selling her.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 09, 2012, 07:50:20 AM
You raised a good issue Ducatiz.  1100 people whose jobs are in peril because they didn't step up.  I'm sure Acebris has great lawyers with limitless funds compared to Ducati but dam why don't they fight harder?  Is it simply Italian stubbornness at play?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on January 09, 2012, 07:57:22 AM
You raised a good issue Ducatiz.  1100 people whose jobs are in peril because they didn't step up.  I'm sure Acebris has great lawyers with limitless funds compared to Ducati but dam why don't they fight harder?  Is it simply Italian stubbornness at play?
It depends what was written in the contract between Ducati and Acerbis. A poorly written contract could leave little/no space for litigation.
I have been in a similar situation before, and what seen right means nothing if the contract does not support it.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 09, 2012, 11:40:03 AM
A poorly written contract could leave little/no space for litigation.

haha, perhaps you mean "well written" or "clearly adverse to ducati's standing in the particular aspect"?

You can always litigate (or try to litigate) the intended meaning of the terms of the contract, and make public policy arguments (perhaps applicable here).  doesn't mean they could win, or afford to try.   if its poorly written, there's more opportunities to argue over the terms, and that would invite litigation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 09, 2012, 01:58:02 PM
Is anyone else going after Acebris?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 09, 2012, 03:07:36 PM
Is anyone else going after Acebris?

Hint: You bought a Ducati, not an Acerbis.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 09, 2012, 03:09:07 PM
Hint: You bought a Ducati, not an Acerbis.
I think he meant other manufacturers that have had the same issue with Acerbis products.

Maybe not.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 09, 2012, 03:36:13 PM
I think he meant other manufacturers that have had the same issue with Acerbis products.

Maybe not.

You are very kind!  ;)

A consumer is unlikely to see the arrangement between a manufacturer and a vendor, and for that matter, the specification that manufacturer ordered..., unless of course, bodies are littered all over the place. At that point, it becomes more "relevant". The lawyers can chime in if tempted.

From experience, the manufacturer has a warranty with the vendor. Replacement or compensation is based on the % failure rate the manufacturer bought with the part. This "shouldn't" be costing Ducati much unless Ducati really screwed up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 09, 2012, 03:56:58 PM
You are very kind!  ;)

A consumer is unlikely to see the arrangement between a manufacturer and a vendor, and for that matter, the specification that manufacturer ordered..., unless of course, bodies are littered all over the place. At that point, it becomes more "relevant". The lawyers can chime in if tempted.

From experience, the manufacturer has a warranty with the vendor. Replacement or compensation is based on the % failure rate the manufacturer bought with the part. This "shouldn't" be costing Ducati much unless Ducati really screwed up.
We'll never know the details of the arrangement between Ducati and Acerbis.

Ducati seems to have successfully argued the tanks didn't 'fail'.

That would relieve Acerbis of liability under all circumstances.

It seems the only winners here are the lawyers representing the class...

It will ultimately cost all the others involved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 09, 2012, 04:09:02 PM
I meant manufacturers of course.  That said did they make them for triumph?  I know they were replacing tanks with metal ones last I heard.  If I were Ducati I'd go after acebris IMO.  I predict they won't survive past 5 years if owners get screwed. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 09, 2012, 04:21:32 PM
I meant manufacturers of course.  That said did they make them for triumph?  I know they were replacing tanks with metal ones last I heard.  If I were Ducati I'd go after acebris IMO.  I predict they won't survive past 5 years if owners get screwed. 
pretty sure every Euro manufacturer that has offered a plastic tank bought them from Acerbis.

I don't think Triumph, or any other manufacturer, has replaced a plastic tank with a metal tank. Triumph stopped offering models with plastic tanks. There is a huge difference.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 09, 2012, 06:07:13 PM
dam Iphone.   [bang]  That's what I meant but I'm getting old and the screen gets smaller. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jerryz on January 10, 2012, 06:13:21 AM
KTM , BMW, Apprillia,cagiva ,motoguzzi and Harley all bought and use defective tanks from Acerbis   and its been well known for many years that PA6 absorbs water and swells do who is at fault ??????


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 10, 2012, 06:55:13 AM
Hint: You bought a Ducati, not an Acerbis.

could still be argued they'd be liable under products liability for defects but as mentioned above - nobody is dead and the other side is arguing they aren't defective.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on January 12, 2012, 10:27:31 AM
I am going to ping my dealer tomorrow about getting the new tank.  I am the second owner of the bike but still... She is starting to warp now.  Their excuse was that because of my bike's color, it would be hard to replace.  I am sure someone here on the board could match the factory specs and paint it for me.  I just want a tank that stands the test of time because as I've said, I have no intention on selling that bike. I will get another one but I am not selling her.

My dealer told me the same thing that my tank was a "rare" color (black with orange strip) and that it would be very difficult to replace it. Starting to sound like the same BS.... I'm willing to take a new tank and let Ducati off the hook. I will than use only ethanol free fuel or have the tank coated.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: TitanMonsterS4R on January 12, 2012, 12:33:35 PM
My dealer told me the same thing that my tank was a "rare" color (black with orange strip) and that it would be very difficult to replace it. Starting to sound like the same BS.... I'm willing to take a new tank and let Ducati off the hook. I will than use only ethanol free fuel or have the tank coated.

BS.  Recently got an acid yellow and black tank replaced. I imagine those are about as hard to find as the black and tang. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 12, 2012, 02:00:43 PM
BS.  Recently got an acid yellow and black tank replaced. I imagine those are about as hard to find as the black and tang. 

The "most" rare.  One year and limited make.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: TitanMonsterS4R on January 12, 2012, 06:55:12 PM
The "most" rare.  One year and limited make.

I stand corrected.  [bow_down]  Is the black and tang really hard to find?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 12, 2012, 07:05:23 PM
I stand corrected.  [bow_down]  Is the black and tang really hard to find?

I meant the acid yellow model.  only made in 05


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on January 12, 2012, 08:52:27 PM
I stand corrected.  [bow_down]  Is the black and tang really hard to find?

Man, if you got your tank replaced WTF??? I need to call my dealership again and demand a new tank!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on January 13, 2012, 06:07:51 AM
Tank #2 lasted exactly 1 year. Now I gotta head back to the dealer.
Interesting the coatings failed the tests by Acerbis, have they recommended any solution?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 13, 2012, 07:52:12 AM
Tank #2 lasted exactly 1 year. Now I gotta head back to the dealer.
Interesting the coatings failed the tests by Acerbis, have they recommended any solution?

Acerbis tested one tank and one coating.  There is no way to know if they applied the coating correctly, or what.

Experience has shown that the coating needs to be thinned to get complete coverage and that it is likely wise to do a second coat once the first has set up.

Also, they tested using a solution of 100% ethanol which may invalidate the test.  There was no report on the ambient humidity, how the solution was prepared or why they chose 100% ethanol.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 13, 2012, 09:20:52 AM
i think what they successfully proved was that the tanks do fail when exposed to ethanol.  thanks for proving our point, acerbis. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 13, 2012, 09:31:07 AM
i think what they successfully proved was that the tanks do fail when exposed to ethanol.  thanks for proving our point, acerbis. 

no, the test was supposed to be to test Caswell's coating. 

In the photos they are pointing to spots where the coating "delaminated" from the tank, but it looks more like they are pointing at the artifact bubbles that occur in the surface of the PA6 during molding rather than actual delamination.  It isn't coming off in sheets, it just looks like a spot where it is not in contact with the surface.  I do not feel based on what I've seen so far that it's a valid test.

They also had a sectioned tank with one of the 3m coatings which had in fact delaminated, but there was no info as to how the tank was prepped or if it was new tank or who did the coating.  In fact, it looks like it was a used tank that was not dried and cleaned properly -- the coating is coming off in sheets.  just like as if there are sections where something (i.e. gasoline residue) was present.

Caswell (and other) coating makers have demonstrated to me that their coatings are ethanol proof up to 90% concentration, so I don't see the point in using a 100% solution when that will never, ever occur.  I can understand using a "contaminated" amount of up to 20-25% or even 85% as a test of E85, but using 100% invalidated the test.

More importantly, the test doesn't specify anything about the testing conditions or how the tank was prepared.  Tank prep is probably the most important issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on January 13, 2012, 09:33:39 AM
When does the judge rule on the settlement?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 13, 2012, 09:42:54 AM
I mean to say, by testing at all, they concede there is an issue with the design. I don't test a solution for a non-existent problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 13, 2012, 03:08:58 PM
Quote
Ducati Class Action Update

We are pleased to announce that the Court has fully approved the Ducati settlement.  The effective date for the settlement is February 14, 2012.  That means the earliest that Ducati is obligated to perform under the settlement is February 14, 2012.

Under the settlement, Ducati will provide repairs for fuel tank expansion problems under an extended warranty.  The extended warranty for expansion problems that are not purely cosmetic will cover repairs for the longer of 6 years from the original sale date or until 18 months after the settlement’s effective date, whichever provides longer coverage for a particular motorcycle.  The extended warranty for purely cosmetic expansion problems will cover repairs for the longer of 5 years from the original sale date or until 18 months after the effective date.

To receive repairs under the settlement, you must take your motorcycle to an authorized Ducati dealer.

Complete information about the settlement, including links to the settlement agreement and the Court’s order approving it, can be found at www.GirardGibbs.com/ducati.asp (http://) (http://). 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 13, 2012, 03:12:27 PM
That maketh me a grumpygus.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 13, 2012, 03:15:33 PM
That maketh me a grumpygus.
you expected otherwise?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 13, 2012, 04:22:30 PM
No, but fingers crossed and all that.  Y'never know when people will surprise you by doing the right thing. I will write a letter expressing the amount of shame brought upon the __________ (fill in the blank: civil justice system, ethics board for creating an environment where problems are handled through inadequately representing clients needs and similarly not advocating zealously therefore, and marquee manufacturer who touts passion and loyal ownership club of ducatisti as brand advantages) brought about by this inadequately researched issue and hastily negotiated settlement.  

I was unable to object to the settlement, but I would consider voicing my objection by refraining to buy new models directly when I could instead buy "slightly used" - I do perform all maintenance myself, so they'll recover no dollars there. Doesn't mean I am certain to jump ship (as I have no doubts Dax will proclaim of himself), but I would advise DNA and Factory that consumer-confidence may be at a low-point, and there are doubts as to brand reputation integrity. (what coffee shop poseur wants to endure the ridicule of "bloaty-tank guy" by other hipster coffee shop connoisseurs, I ask you?)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 13, 2012, 04:29:37 PM
BULLSHIT!

And yes I plan on jumping ship unless the Multi issues are fixed (only bike I'll buy from Ducati).  There might be some "gear" section fire sales in the near future.  I'm not done with my S4R or the 900 for the moment but this tells me everything I need to know about a boutique shop that doesn't give a shit about their customers.  I wont argue cosmetic defects and warranty repair but for me if I pay some $15 to $20K for a bike it better not have these problems and if it does FIX IT for good.

Laugh all you want - everyone - about Harley but I'm telling you from experience they NEVER fail in making me happy with little do-dads that need repair.  I've also never heard anyone complain, ok there has been two guys who blew up their engine after mods (still in warranty) and not "legal" mods mind you.  And the 10k service cost $386 bones too.  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 13, 2012, 04:38:38 PM
But it ain't (the same kind of) fun to ride... Too bad RC 51's are few and far between now, not to mention way out of date technology wise. They were a fun v-powered sport bike, to be sure.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 13, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
BULLSHIT!

And yes I plan on jumping ship unless the Multi issues are fixed (only bike I'll buy from Ducati).  There might be some "gear" section fire sales in the near future.  I'm not done with my S4R or the 900 for the moment but this tells me everything I need to know about a boutique shop that doesn't give a shit about their customers.  I wont argue cosmetic defects and warranty repair but for me if I pay some $15 to $20K for a bike it better not have these problems and if it does FIX IT for good.

Laugh all you want - everyone - about Harley but I'm telling you from experience they NEVER fail in making me happy with little do-dads that need repair.  I've also never heard anyone complain, ok there has been two guys who blew up their engine after mods (still in warranty) and not "legal" mods mind you.  And the 10k service cost $386 bones too.  ;D
I have a question...

did you object to the settlement officially?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 13, 2012, 04:41:42 PM
Good question too, since ya did have an affected-model. My 03 didn't count


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 13, 2012, 06:02:02 PM
I do.  I had my S2R with three replacement tanks.  I'm glad I now have metal tanks and I plan on keeping it that way.  I'm just upset at how this played out and feel bad for all the owners out there whose bikes will need repair. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on January 13, 2012, 08:41:13 PM
BULLSHIT!

And yes I plan on jumping ship unless the Multi issues are fixed (only bike I'll buy from Ducati).  There might be some "gear" section fire sales in the near future.  I'm not done with my S4R or the 900 for the moment but this tells me everything I need to know about a boutique shop that doesn't give a shit about their customers.  I wont argue cosmetic defects and warranty repair but for me if I pay some $15 to $20K for a bike it better not have these problems and if it does FIX IT for good.

Laugh all you want - everyone - about Harley but I'm telling you from experience they NEVER fail in making me happy with little do-dads that need repair.  I've also never heard anyone complain, ok there has been two guys who blew up their engine after mods (still in warranty) and not "legal" mods mind you.  And the 10k service cost $386 bones too.  ;D
Jump ship if you must......but a HARLEY???????? 1964 technology? Stay Itallian my friend! Aprillia [bow_down]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 13, 2012, 09:21:41 PM
yes a HARLEY.  Funny how bashing continues even though most Ducs on the road have dated technology too, exception being the most recent 5 years or so.  It serves it's purpose and I love it.   :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: poseur on January 13, 2012, 09:56:30 PM
BULLSHIT!

And yes I plan on jumping ship unless the Multi issues are fixed (only bike I'll buy from Ducati).  There might be some "gear" section fire sales in the near future.  I'm not done with my S4R or the 900 for the moment but this tells me everything I need to know about a boutique shop that doesn't give a shit about their customers.  I wont argue cosmetic defects and warranty repair but for me if I pay some $15 to $20K for a bike it better not have these problems and if it does FIX IT for good.

 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on January 14, 2012, 06:02:48 AM
Well it looks like there will be an 07 S4RS for sale within the next 18 months - shame because I really like the bike but there are so many choices out there - highly doubt another Duc will be among the final list though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 14, 2012, 06:11:58 AM
I do.  I had my S2R with three replacement tanks.  I'm glad I now have metal tanks and I plan on keeping it that way.  I'm just upset at how this played out and feel bad for all the owners out there whose bikes will need repair. 
Did you formally object to the proposed settlement either on your own or through ducatiz?

It's a simple question.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 14, 2012, 07:05:55 AM
Did you formally object to the proposed settlement either on your own or through ducatiz?

It's a simple question.
Yes.  I didn't send anything to Ducatiz because I don't have plastic tanks though.  No dog in this fight....at this time.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on January 14, 2012, 08:13:31 AM
yes a HARLEY.  Funny how bashing continues even though most Ducs on the road have dated technology too, exception being the most recent 5 years or so.  It serves it's purpose and I love it.   :P
Try buying an XR1200X, and see how happy you will be with its tank  8)
HD has the same issues Ducati has with its tank, and nowhere they stepped forward in making it right (besides the dumb tank-replace saga).

http://www.xr1200ownersgroup.com/site/showthread.php?1969-gas-tank-issues-again (http://www.xr1200ownersgroup.com/site/showthread.php?1969-gas-tank-issues-again)


Harley Davidson XR1200, Fuel Tank swelling problem, update (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egslC4_p_Oc#)


Delboy's Garage, XR1200x Tank swelling issue, Second update. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzywcnAR6wU#)

I know, because an XR1200X was pretty high in my likings.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 14, 2012, 08:17:12 AM
no interest in that bike and if I owned it the same thing would be said.  I have a metal tank as does most everyone else.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ZOSO on January 14, 2012, 08:38:19 AM
IZ, any thoughts?
I realize the website sells stuff so motives may be suspect . . .

http://www.fuel-testers.com/review_gas_treatment_products.html (http://www.fuel-testers.com/review_gas_treatment_products.html)

Regarding K100:
"Comment from Fuel-Testers:   K100 marine brochure and website falsely state,  "Eliminates water and all water related problems"...."Stops phase seperation in E-10 fuel"; (Misleading and impossible claims - While it may "delay" phase separation, you're still left with gas that contains excess water and alcohol that will damage your engine)."



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 14, 2012, 08:49:51 AM
Iz or tiz?

Nothing removes water from fuel once it's mixed in.  (well, maybe combustion but you know what I mean...)

K100 apparently "sequesters" the water so it does not fully separate.

There is very little along the fuel path that would be harmed by the presence of water in solution -- except for the nylon tank.

The only reason I have said take a look at K100 is that they provided me with a 3rd party (customer-a refinery owned by Lukoil) test of the fuel.  K100 did not pay for the test nor did they request it, the customer wanted to test it to see if it would help in their changeover from G100 to G90 (i.e. E10) gasoline.  

I also contacted the makers of Stabil and Startron and they refused to provide anything, they emailed me literature that they produced.

My position is that NO fuel treatment should be left in a NYLON tank in the hopes of preventing water separation.  K100 looks like it actually has some success in dealing with water present, but if you're using your bike regularly and you are using a fuel treatment for short terms, then it might help some as it may keep the water from separating for a short term.

All of these fuel treatments help gasoline burn a little hotter intermittently so negative effects of the presence of water are mitigated.  You'll suffer a little in performance, but it wont gag your engine.

The only question I have is what effect will the fuel additive have on water in the fuel mixture and how long will it prevent it from separating and therefore, direct contact with the NYLON tank's wall?

(As a side comment, putting a small amount of water into your intakes will not destroy your engine.  Google "decoke pistons" and you can see videos of people spraying small amounts of water into a carburetor or diesel intake to help get crap off the pistons.  Likewise, there are water mist sprayers used for performance which spray a mist of water directly into the intake during load.)
 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: poseur on January 14, 2012, 09:20:31 AM
highly doubt another Duc will be among the final list though.

Same here. No more Ducati for me. Such a shame. They really blew it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 14, 2012, 09:29:32 AM
Not only small amounts of water but some have implemented an entire steam cycle ("6 stroke") to get additional power out of the motor while simultaneously reducing chamber temps.  Pretty neat stuff (in that case you have a second tank for water only, not so convenient). As you said, the only place the water causes problems is in the tanks really


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 14, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
I don't think Ducati blew it.

I think they've done a remarkable job of replacing tanks for the last 2+ years, although now I learn that Harley has been doing the same thing for their XR owners.

I do think they got scared or something and were misled.  Or someone at Ducati just wanted to end the ability of people to sue over it.

I think they were between a rock and a hard place.  I think if they had taken the coatings seriously, they could have found something that worked.

The problem with the coatings are the unknowns:  who is doing it?  what condition is the tank? how did they prep the tank? etc. 

After going over and over the stuff published from the case, I am convinced someone either totally misunderstands how to test such a product or wanted to make a showing that they did "something" to test it, regardless of how valid that test was.

I still love Ducati.  I'll probably buy another one next year (give me a little break, I just bought another one -- I am on a "buy 3 vintage, then buy one new" cycle and I need to move the old BMW first.)

I would even buy a bike with a plastic tank provided I could get it with no gas and coat the tank first. 

Well, at least the attorneys got paid. (and yes, I'm an attorney but this is part of the reason I never wanted to do this kind of law.  If you have tax issues and you're not hiding assets, you can call me...)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on January 14, 2012, 03:02:02 PM
 [beer]New tank installed today.  I'm going to start saving for aluminum tank :(


Is the FI tank compatable with the S4Rs?

 http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 14, 2012, 03:52:08 PM
[beer]New tank installed today.  I'm going to start saving for aluminum tank :(


Is the FI tank compatable with the S4Rs?

 http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html)
The S4RS has a different shaped mounting flange than any other Monster.

I'd say it won't work with your parts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 14, 2012, 04:04:37 PM
Maybe they will make a proper one for you-aren't they made to order?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 14, 2012, 05:50:18 PM
Ducati replaced tanks or Acebris?  that's the question I'd like to know.
In other news, I read the Lawyers made $835,000 on this deal.  Way to go, at least someone's happy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on January 14, 2012, 06:45:20 PM
Nice.  F#cked over the coals by believing that a company might 'do the right thing'.

I honestly didn't think anything different would result from this settlement or even the public response after posting it months ago.  I've given up thinking that Ducati is looking at anything else except for profit and gathering new, naive customers to the 'brand'.  It didn't used to be like that.  That's why I have more than one.  The older one.

Iz, while I appreciate your enthusiasm for Ducati and 'the little engine that could' I think you have to stop drinking the Kool Aid and see it differently.  I appreciate the 'small Italian company' and all that BS, but at some point you have to agree they are simply cowards on so many levels by not coming clean and admitting to a poor material spec.  That, in simple legalese is called negligence.  Nothing less.  Hiding behind a veil of a legal process tells me more about how the company treats its customers than I would have believed a year ago.

Coupled with the fact (referencable fact, via EIA.gov) that ethanol in fuels have been in North American gasolines since the early 1990s.  Ethanol's effects (and its ability to gather water into said fuel) in fuel containers should not have been a surprise to anyone by this late date.

Will I keep the bike?  Yeah, more than likely.  But this will be the last Duc for me for a number of reasons, which I won't repeat again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: drvslow on January 15, 2012, 05:40:55 AM
[beer]New tank installed today.  I'm going to start saving for aluminum tank :(


Is the FI tank compatable with the S4Rs?

 http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html)

Did my convertor work correctly- these tanks are around $2300 US?  Thinking I could purchase a few plastic tanks and coat them for that.  Or buy a large fuel tank for the back of the truck and deliver ethanol free gas to refuel locations along my route. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 15, 2012, 07:03:44 AM
Have you priced a plastic tank?!?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 15, 2012, 07:06:37 AM
Have you priced a plastic tank?!?
;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on January 16, 2012, 10:37:35 AM
Maybe they will make a proper one for you-aren't they made to order?
I emailed them inquiring about the S4Rs tank. We'll see


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on January 16, 2012, 01:03:08 PM
Hope?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1 (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: justinrhenry on January 16, 2012, 01:11:25 PM
Hope?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1 (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1)


this isn't hope.  they don't mention or imply the end of ethanol in gas. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 16, 2012, 02:04:55 PM
Hope?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1 (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1)


the legislation also removes tariffs on Brazilian cane-based ethanol import.  Brazilians pay about $1/gallon for their ethanol fuel (100% ethanol cars there). 

It means more ethanol and cheaper.

the solution would be to have "mix at the pump" ethanol so the customer can select how much ethanol to add to their gasoline.  this is the standard in some places (Oz). 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on January 16, 2012, 02:13:52 PM
Hope?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1 (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/01/end-of-ethanol-subsidy-could-raise-gas-prices-for-2012/1)


Nope.  You will simply be paying more for E10 in areas where it is mandated.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 16, 2012, 02:17:27 PM
Nope.  You will simply be paying more for E10 in areas where it is mandated.

They might not have renewed the subsidy but until they remove the % requirements for E-10 nationally which are increasing annually, we still have a problem with that cr*p.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 16, 2012, 02:33:56 PM
I hope they stick to their guns and don't subsidize a dime but we all know Pol............


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 16, 2012, 03:18:56 PM
enough about corn subsidies please.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on January 17, 2012, 07:39:26 AM
Nice.  F#cked over the coals by believing that a company might 'do the right thing'.

I honestly didn't think anything different would result from this settlement or even the public response after posting it months ago.  I've given up thinking that Ducati is looking at anything else except for profit and gathering new, naive customers to the 'brand'.  It didn't used to be like that.  That's why I have more than one.  The older one.

Iz, while I appreciate your enthusiasm for Ducati and 'the little engine that could' I think you have to stop drinking the Kool Aid and see it differently.  I appreciate the 'small Italian company' and all that BS, but at some point you have to agree they are simply cowards on so many levels by not coming clean and admitting to a poor material spec.  That, in simple legalese is called negligence.  Nothing less.  Hiding behind a veil of a legal process tells me more about how the company treats its customers than I would have believed a year ago.

Coupled with the fact (referencable fact, via EIA.gov) that ethanol in fuels have been in North American gasolines since the early 1990s.  Ethanol's effects (and its ability to gather water into said fuel) in fuel containers should not have been a surprise to anyone by this late date.

Will I keep the bike?  Yeah, more than likely.  But this will be the last Duc for me for a number of reasons, which I won't repeat again.

Dude, I think you have made it perfectly clear where you stand on this issue and the fact that you will never buy a Duc. I think in general most people on this thread have been very understanding about your position, even when they don't share it. In the same way, Tiz and others have expressed their opinions. You call it the Ducati kool-aid, but yet ignore completely the statments that this issue is also impacting other manufacturers, if I'm not mistaken even BMW, which it seems you have a particular fondness for. Let's try to keep this thread away from degrading into something unnecessary.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on January 17, 2012, 05:26:33 PM
Dude, I think you have made it perfectly clear where you stand on this issue and the fact that you will never buy a Duc. I think in general most people on this thread have been very understanding about your position, even when they don't share it. In the same way, Tiz and others have expressed their opinions. You call it the Ducati kool-aid, but yet ignore completely the statments that this issue is also impacting other manufacturers, if I'm not mistaken even BMW, which it seems you have a particular fondness for. Let's try to keep this thread away from degrading into something unnecessary.

With all due respect, this is an ongoing thread about the settlement and affected tanks.  I can't deny I've posted pretty vocally on this point.  Yet we have seen in these last few pages how people have posted here, yet not risen to write in to oppose the settlement. 

I don't think the post was degrading this thread into something unnecessary.  I respect what Iz has done (despite the outcome of the settlement) and was re-reading some earlier posts of his in Tech this afternoon.  Good stuff.

Do you agree with the finalized settlement?  Just curious about your position pro or con.  If you'd like to take the discussion offline, feel free to PM me. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 17, 2012, 05:32:58 PM
With all due respect, this is an ongoing thread about the settlement and affected tanks.  I can't deny I've posted pretty vocally on this point.  Yet we have seen in these last few pages how people have posted here, yet not risen to write in to oppose the settlement. 

I don't think the post was degrading this thread into something unnecessary.  I respect what Iz has done (despite the outcome of the settlement) and was re-reading some earlier posts of his in Tech this afternoon.  Good stuff.

Do you agree with the finalized settlement?  Just curious about your position pro or con.
Did you formally object?

How does the inaction of customers vilify the manufacturer?

I remember 6 or so years ago when the faithful were screaming for a plastic tank to avoid the classic 'Ducati Dent'.

They got that...didn't quite work the way everyone hoped...

did it?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on January 17, 2012, 05:49:24 PM
Did you formally object?

How does the inaction of customers vilify the manufacturer?

I remember 6 or so years ago when the faithful were screaming for a plastic tank to avoid the classic 'Ducati Dent'.

They got that...didn't quite work the way everyone hoped...

did it?

Yes, I did formally object-to all three parties on the settlement.  With a half page of referenced fact for clarification. 

But you have a point. . . if the customers don't act, how is the manufacturer supposed to respond?  At this point I think that's the most clear question to come out of the 'settlement'.  In 5 years what will we be saying 'should have' been done?

And I did read about the requests to make a non-denting tank. . . . quite a while back but I see we got what we were asking for.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 17, 2012, 05:52:44 PM
Yes, I did formally object-to all three parties on the settlement.  With a half page of referenced fact for clarification. 

But you have a point. . . if the customers don't act, how is the manufacturer supposed to respond?  At this point I think that's the most clear question to come out of the 'settlement'.  In 5 years what will we be saying 'should have' been done?

And I did read about the requests to make a non-denting tank. . . . quite a while back but I see we got what we were asking for.
My point is...

I believe Ducati was doing everything they could do for the owners...

until the lawsuit was filed and needed to be dealt with from a business 'bleeding' perspective.

Don't blame Ducati...

blame Gerard Gibbs.

He's the only winner.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on January 17, 2012, 06:01:57 PM
My point is...

I believe Ducati was doing everything they could do for the owners...

until the lawsuit was filed and needed to be dealt with from a business 'bleeding' perspective.

Don't blame Ducati...

blame Gerard Gibbs.

He's the only winner.



I see what you mean.  It could very well be that once the legal machine was put in motion there was limited room to do the right thing (?)  I could imagine that behind closed doors a number of proposals were considered (cost vs. benefit vs. validation etc).  And after the time ran out and the letters were tallied this is what resulted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on January 17, 2012, 09:50:51 PM
Could Ducati still replace tanks beyond the limits of the settlement as "good will" on a customer by customer basis like manufacturers sometimes do when a vehicle is out of warranty?  I see no reason why they couldn't but I am not a lawyer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 18, 2012, 06:25:51 AM
Could Ducati still replace tanks beyond the limits of the settlement as "good will" on a customer by customer basis like manufacturers sometimes do when a vehicle is out of warranty?  I see no reason why they couldn't but I am not a lawyer.

They can do whatever they want out of good will.  Most of the tank replacements for the 05 and 06 bikes were good will replacements, especially where the owner was a 2nd or 3rd. 

I hope they do, but it might prove to be a liability if it gets out since that could be considered unfair treatment under the settlement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on January 18, 2012, 08:26:45 AM
$835,000 would have paid for a lot of replacement -possibly alloy aftermarket- tanks...

...and what happens if/when e15 is mandated and the problems *accelerate* - the Gubmint has already proven that e15 does no harm  [bang]




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 18, 2012, 08:52:22 AM
$835,000 would have paid for a lot of replacement -possibly alloy aftermarket- tanks...

...and what happens if/when e15 is mandated and the problems *accelerate* - the Gubmint has already proven that e15 does no harm  [bang]



You're right. It would have gone a long way to keeping the faithful happy.

Call Gerard Gibbs and see what he suggests.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on January 18, 2012, 08:57:27 AM
Call Gerard Gibbs and see what he suggests.

lol Somehow, I don't think he would have my best interests in mind.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 18, 2012, 09:01:28 AM
lol Somehow, I don't think he would have my best interests in mind.

he was your attorney for the matter, why not?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 18, 2012, 09:22:45 AM

Since my brain has obviously turned to jelly, I can no longer recall the length of time a vehicle manufacturer is required by law to make replacement parts available. Anyone remember for certain? Was that 5 years? 6 years? 7 years after the vehicle is no longer made?

Just wondering how this might relate to the choice of 6 years from the in-service date of new Ducatis...

Ideally they should keep cranking out parts for 10 - 15 years but the plastic tanks are a vendor item and I've no idea what the arrangement might be between the vendor and Ducati. You can bet the vendor is on the hook for the Federally mandated period for sure unless Ducati is incompetent.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on January 18, 2012, 09:38:18 AM
he was your attorney for the matter, why not?

+1.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on January 18, 2012, 09:49:37 AM
As I stated in an earlier post, I feel they were working for Ducati and not for their clients.  I feel they only have $ in mind and I don't have any to give them.  I run real gas in my bike.  I guess my interest (wanted or not) is for the unfortunate souls who must run e10.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on January 18, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
As I stated in an earlier post, I feel they were working for Ducati and not for their clients. 

Don't be naive.  Girard Gibbs was working for themselves, and their own financial interests.  Nothing more and nothing less.  That's what class action firms do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 18, 2012, 06:05:22 PM
I must agree with the above statement.  If he cared everyone with a plastic tank would have money in hand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on January 19, 2012, 09:37:42 AM
Don't be naive.  Girard Gibbs was working for themselves, and their own financial interests.  Nothing more and nothing less.  That's what class action firms do.
That is what I was getting at.  No reason to call and ask them anything, I'm not even sure what the question would be - but I'm pretty sure the answer would be the same no matter what was asked.
I've got my original Monster tank on a shelf nice and dry - a custom painted ebay tank, tail and front fender is on the bike now.  Good steel tanks are hard to find - my 37 year old steel Suzuki tank still works fine.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on January 19, 2012, 09:43:09 AM
Why doesn't someone call?   I can't because I don't have a plastic tank but I I did I'd be harrassing him.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on January 26, 2012, 03:37:59 PM
I went to the dealer today to have them take a look at my tank for possible replacement.

Admittedly, my tank isn't that bad. There is some rippling on the right side knee recess, some flat spots on the top right of the tank, and it's impossible to unlatch the tank without some serious finagling. Also, it's a dark model so most of the distortion is vaguely visible which, according to the class action papers we all received, might not qualify the tank for a cosmetic replacement. There is no leaking.....yet.   [roll]

That being said, it appears that the current fix for tanks in this condition (which I stated in an earlier post in this thread) is a "maintenance kit". It includes larger rubber bumpers so the tank will sit properly on the frame and a more adjustable hinge which moves the tank back making room for the tank latch. The latter will almost guaranty the need for a "smaller" seat. All of this is a way to accommodate for tank expansion rather than alleviating it. Needless to say, I opted not to go with the kit and asked the dealer to send a request to Ducati.

He agreed and candidly expressed his disapproval with Ducati and their resolution for this situation.

Either way, I just wanted to let everyone know what the fix is if your tank doesn't look like an inflated hot air balloon.

Hopefully I'll hear some news, in my favor, in a few days!   :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on January 31, 2012, 12:42:38 PM
I encourage you to send an email to Ducati Customer Service and if you feel this will affect future buying decisions let them know, I did. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on January 31, 2012, 01:36:43 PM
I encourage you to send an email to Ducati Customer Service and if you feel this will affect future buying decisions let them know, I did. - Gene

And the outcome of that email?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on January 31, 2012, 01:56:50 PM
No response yet I sent it last night. But FWIW I really don't care if I get a response. Until the EPA gets it's head out of it's lower posterior or all the states adopt a non-ethanol set aside premium blend I'm just not going to buy any bikes with a plastic tank. Actually I guess I should say anymore bikes with a plastic tank since I already have 2 with a plastic tank. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on January 31, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
Until the EPA gets it's head out of it's lower posterior or all the states adopt a non-ethanol set aside premium blend I'm just not going to buy any bikes with a plastic tank. Actually I guess I should say anymore bikes with a plastic tank since I already have 2 with a plastic tank. - Gene

This.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on January 31, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
I'm curious about plastic and gasoline. You see, I have two plastic gas cans in my storage shed that usually have gas in them, but they don't swell or deform. I paid about $8.00 each for them at Home Depot. I have a $2000 plastic tank on my Duc, and it has more waves on it than the Pacific.


I'm sorry, wrong thread. This belongs in the DMF Joke Thread.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on January 31, 2012, 04:00:42 PM
I'm curious about plastic and gasoline. You see, I have two plastic gas cans in my storage shed that usually have gas in them, but they don't swell or deform. I paid about $8.00 each for them at Home Depot. I have a $2000 plastic tank on my Duc, and it has more waves on it than the Pacific.


I'm sorry, wrong thread. This belongs in the DMF Joke Thread.
Call your congress person...



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on January 31, 2012, 05:01:40 PM
States could mandate it, but honestly, I think you'd still see the problem.  Ethanol exacerbates the moisture issue, but any moisture you get in the tank is going to do it.  Cool tank sitting over a hot engine means lots of condensation on the interior roof.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on February 07, 2012, 10:08:52 AM
One of my club members just got an email from DNA that states Ducati is contracting another supplier to have the gas tanks made.
Mmmm I call bullshit


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 07, 2012, 10:41:20 AM
One of my club members just got an email from DNA that states Ducati is contracting another supplier to have the gas tanks made.
Mmmm I call bullshit

huh?

and no one else in the world has?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on February 07, 2012, 10:46:31 AM
That's what I thought.  I think someone at DNA is blowing smoke up his ass.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on February 07, 2012, 11:56:18 AM
So it was a 1-on-1 (or Juan-on-Juan, as the case may be) communication, and not any type of official correspondence, like mass-mailer, etc?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on February 07, 2012, 12:34:54 PM
 [laugh] maybe they are reading this forum and said......."shit there's money to be made."


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on February 07, 2012, 01:25:38 PM
So it was a 1-on-1 (or Juan-on-Juan, as the case may be) communication, and not any type of official correspondence, like mass-mailer, etc?
yes my mistake not specify


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 07, 2012, 01:48:16 PM
If they received such a thing, then they should post it.  Otherwise, it's just BS.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on February 08, 2012, 05:07:27 AM
If they received such a thing, then they should post it.  Otherwise, it's just BS.
I read the email.  It was just bullshit disregard my post.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 08, 2012, 05:29:05 AM
I read the email.  It was just bullshit disregard my post.

lol


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gardein on February 09, 2012, 12:41:00 PM
No tank replacement was deemed necessary for my bike.. Ducati is having my dealership fit the "fuel tank fitting kit" specified in page 9 section C of the settlement agreement (reference http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati-settlement-agreement.pdf (http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati-settlement-agreement.pdf)) to correct for the expansion of my 2006 S2R 1000 tank. The tank is way off one of the side mounts, can not be latched in front, and is pressing upon the ignition assembly.  I'll update after this weekend with how it all fits together - I'll be surprised if the seat will fit and latch correctly after moving the tank backward.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on February 09, 2012, 01:58:21 PM
And here we go...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on February 09, 2012, 04:36:42 PM
And here we go...
It has been adjudicated..

has to work ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gardein on February 11, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
No tank replacement was deemed necessary for my bike.. Ducati is having my dealership fit the "fuel tank fitting kit" specified in page 9 section C of the settlement agreement (reference http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati-settlement-agreement.pdf (http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati-settlement-agreement.pdf)) to correct for the expansion of my 2006 S2R 1000 tank. The tank is way off one of the side mounts, can not be latched in front, and is pressing upon the ignition assembly.  I'll update after this weekend with how it all fits together - I'll be surprised if the seat will fit and latch correctly after moving the tank backward.
The fit kit tweak centered the tank and moved it a small bit to the back - though the front clearance to the ignition switch assembly is still nonexistent.  The stock seat fits and latches.  I will hold my breath for a few months and see if it remains workable.  Fortunately I have no bubbles or ripples in the tank so I can live with it for now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xsephirot on February 11, 2012, 06:33:50 PM
The fit kit tweak centered the tank and moved it a small bit to the back - though the front clearance to the ignition switch assembly is still nonexistent.  The stock seat fits and latches.  I will hold my breath for a few months and see if it remains workable.  Fortunately I have no bubbles or ripples in the tank so I can live with it for now.

Are you able to get that latch open and closed on the tank easily now? I can see that happening to me as my tank has no dents or ripples just pushing against the ignition and off centered


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on February 11, 2012, 06:52:04 PM
The fit kit tweak centered the tank and moved it a small bit to the back - though the front clearance to the ignition switch assembly is still nonexistent.  The stock seat fits and latches.  I will hold my breath for a few months and see if it remains workable.  Fortunately I have no bubbles or ripples in the tank so I can live with it for now.

so what happens when you drain the tank and it shrinks back?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on February 18, 2012, 12:26:44 PM
Just a quick update, my dealership got me approved for a tank replacement! Very happy with that, I plan on buying a 14 gallon gas container to keep in the garage and will only use non-ethanol gas, unless I can find a coating that will work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: fastwin on February 18, 2012, 12:53:14 PM
Not tank related per se but close:

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=47304 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=47304)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on February 18, 2012, 02:30:33 PM
"LINES CONTAIN MICRO-CRACKING DUE TO INSUFFICIENT DRYING OF RAW MATERIALS PRIOR TO EXTRUSION."
uhu..... [popcorn]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on February 18, 2012, 02:31:33 PM
been there done that with the 4-wheel vehicles... hooray rubbers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on February 27, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
How do they decide who to give a new tank to and who to give a kit to? I'd be very interested to see pics of the pads to hold the tank to the frame that are in so called kit.  What is the better temporary short term solution? K100 or Stabil? I heard that stabil doesn't even work, which makes me wonder why they told me to put it in at the dealership.

So from my understanding the only thing that can be done to mitigate the expansion are
1) Completely emptying or filling the tank between storing periods
2) Use an additive (K100/Stabil)
3) Coat the inside of the tank (Casewell)




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on February 28, 2012, 05:07:23 AM
So from my understanding the only thing that can be done to mitigate the expansion are
1) Completely emptying or filling the tank between storing periods
2) Use an additive (K100/Stabil)
3) Coat the inside of the tank (Casewell)

Yes.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on February 28, 2012, 05:24:19 AM


So from my understanding the only thing that can be done to mitigate the expansion are
1) Completely emptying yes or filling the tank between storing periods doubt it
2) Use an additive (K100 maybe /Stabil no)
3) Coat the inside of the tank (Casewell) this, and be done.





Nothing removes water from fuel once it's mixed in.  (well, maybe combustion but you know what I mean...)

K100 apparently "sequesters" the water so it does not fully separate.

There is very little along the fuel path that would be harmed by the presence of water in solution -- except for the nylon tank.

The only reason I have said take a look at K100 is that they provided me with a 3rd party (customer-a refinery owned by Lukoil) test of the fuel.  K100 did not pay for the test nor did they request it, the customer wanted to test it to see if it would help in their changeover from G100 to G90 (i.e. E10) gasoline.  

I also contacted the makers of Stabil and Startron and they refused to provide anything, they emailed me literature that they produced.

My position is that NO fuel treatment should be left in a NYLON tank in the hopes of preventing water separation.  K100 looks like it actually has some success in dealing with water present, but if you're using your bike regularly and you are using a fuel treatment for short terms, then it might help some as it may keep the water from separating for a short term.

All of these fuel treatments help gasoline burn a little hotter intermittently so negative effects of the presence of water are mitigated.  You'll suffer a little in performance, but it wont gag your engine.

The only question I have is what effect will the fuel additive have on water in the fuel mixture and how long will it prevent it from separating and therefore, direct contact with the NYLON tank's wall?

(As a side comment, putting a small amount of water into your intakes will not destroy your engine.  Google "decoke pistons" and you can see videos of people spraying small amounts of water into a carburetor or diesel intake to help get crap off the pistons.  Likewise, there are water mist sprayers used for performance which spray a mist of water directly into the intake during load.)
 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on February 28, 2012, 05:06:04 PM
 What if they later on figure out a way to fix the problem and then they say we can't help you b/c you tampered with your tank by putting this coating in it?  Ef that!  I am going to do what the dealer said to do and if my tank expands they will keep giving me another one.  UNREASONABLE to the max. [bang]  

I called gerald and gibbs or whatever the name of that firm is and they didn't get back to me.  Time to give them another call or two and I encourage all of you to do the same.  IT IS NOT REASONABLE TO EXPECT CUSOTOMERS TO COAT THEIR TANKS WITHOUT DUCATI EVEN INFORMING THEM THAT COATING IS AN OPTION.  IT IS NOT REASONABLE TO EXPECT THAT ALL OWNERS WILL GO ON THIS FORUM AND FIND OUT ABOUT IT.  I really don't get this. Ducatiz help me out here...your a lawyer right?

CLEARLY THERE IS A SAFETY ISSUE NOT JUST COSMETIC. Fine the coating does not meet polution standards that Ducati must abide by, but can't the judge bypass that in the name of safety?  Afterall Casewell is allowed to sell it!  Its not like its a tail peice or something; its the freaking fuel tank on the bike.  If it expands enought it can and will impact stearing radius and cause leaks.  IF YOU CAN'T UNLATCH THE TANK B/C ITS PRESSED AGAINST THE IGNITION THAT IS NOT COSMETIC ONLY!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on February 28, 2012, 05:31:53 PM
What if they later on figure out a way to fix the problem and then they say we can't help you b/c you tampered with your tank by putting this coating in it?  Ef that!  I am going to do what the dealer said to do and if my tank expands they will keep giving me another one.  UNREASONABLE to the max. [bang]  

I called gerald and gibbs or whatever the name of that firm is and they didn't get back to me.  Time to give them another call or two and I encourage all of you to do the same.  IT IS NOT REASONABLE TO EXPECT CUSOTOMERS TO COAT THEIR TANKS WITHOUT DUCATI EVEN INFORMING THEM THAT COATING IS AN OPTION.  IT IS NOT REASONABLE TO EXPECT THAT ALL OWNERS WILL GO ON THIS FORUM AND FIND OUT ABOUT IT.  I really don't get this. Ducatiz help me out here...your a lawyer right?

CLEARLY THERE IS A SAFETY ISSUE NOT JUST COSMETIC. Fine the coating does not meet polution standards that Ducati must abide by, but can't the judge bypass that in the name of safety?  Afterall Casewell is allowed to sell it!  Its not like its a tail peice or something; its the freaking fuel tank on the bike.  If it expands enought it can and will impact stearing radius and cause leaks.  IF YOU CAN'T UNLATCH THE TANK B/C ITS PRESSED AGAINST THE IGNITION THAT IS NOT COSMETIC ONLY!
Ya know...

this thread started 3 years ago...

and all of a sudden you're getting indignant?

You really should try to stay current.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on February 28, 2012, 05:37:30 PM
True...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on February 28, 2012, 05:42:15 PM
The unfortunate truth is the class action has been adjudicated, and you have to live with the decision.

Sorry.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on February 28, 2012, 05:46:23 PM
Dang, u sure?  How could that be possible?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on February 28, 2012, 06:22:45 PM
Dang, u sure?  How could that be possible?
So..., where was your notarized objection when we needed a few hundred? Did you just buy the bike?! Very disappointing after "ducatiz" did all that work and research...  >:(

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.msg1004772#msg1004772 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.msg1004772#msg1004772)


Title: !
Post by: uclabiker06 on February 28, 2012, 06:57:36 PM
Would my one objection have made the difference (i hope not) [bang] apologies in advance to all.  Wow so thats what happened! omg, so not enough people said anything and its over with now...sucks!!!!!!! [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [thumbsdown] :'( Time to coat I guess....not looking forward to it.  Okay time for me to shut up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: LA on February 29, 2012, 05:47:09 PM
A few months ago my tank finally expanded so that I can't unlatch it.  I have a fouled plug and will have to figure out how to get the tank up if I'm going to ride and my truck's down and out for the count. 

It's a 2006 with over 40k miles  on it.  The bike has been flawless otherwise.  The best bike I've owned in 40 years of riding.  I wish someone sold a 2004 model metal like my old blue S4R.

Time to get with the dealer I guess.  :'(

LA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gadgetech on March 02, 2012, 04:18:17 PM
Well my dealer informed me today that they put the bracket on and that I can now operate the latch. They were able to keep the stock seat but said I could get a shorter one if I like from Ducati. The dealer is confident the tank will expand to the point that the bracket won't be a fix. I am told the bracket is visible when looking at the front of the bike. The dealer said if I wanted to push the issue they would be more than happy to talk to the Ducati rep and that they would support me. I'm really not happy about it and am contemplating asking to meet with the Ducati rep. Anyone want to chime in that has seen the bracket? Should I just accept it or would you push the issue? At this point there are wear marks on the front of the tank where it rubbed against the ignition too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 02, 2012, 04:25:25 PM
make some pics.  that really stinks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gadgetech on March 02, 2012, 04:32:38 PM
make some pics.  that really stinks.

I'll get some tomorrow when I have some daylight to work with.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on March 02, 2012, 04:45:38 PM
Well my dealer informed me today that they put the bracket on and that I can now operate the latch. They were able to keep the stock seat but said I could get a shorter one if I like from Ducati. The dealer is confident the tank will expand to the point that the bracket won't be a fix. I am told the bracket is visible when looking at the front of the bike. The dealer said if I wanted to push the issue they would be more than happy to talk to the Ducati rep and that they would support me. I'm really not happy about it and am contemplating asking to meet with the Ducati rep. Anyone want to chime in that has seen the bracket? Should I just accept it or would you push the issue? At this point there are wear marks on the front of the tank where it rubbed against the ignition too.

I would push the issue with your dealer.

I went to my dealer about a month ago to show them my tank, it wasn't expanded as bad as some I've seen (or that they have seen) but I told them that I wasn't happy with the fact that DNA's current fix was a "maintenance kit" that would most certainly require a new seat. The shop manager said, per my request, the he would email DNA and tell them what I said and that I wasn't very happy but that he didn't think I would get a new tank.

Needless to say, my dealer called me a week ago and told me I was approved for a new tank. So again, push the issue. The worst that could happen is they say no.



And ducatiz, just because I'm getting a new tank doesn't mean I'm not interested in an aluminum one!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on March 02, 2012, 05:25:46 PM
This whole settlement deal is going to turn out like an octopus trying to make the beast with two backs a set a bagpipes: Ugly as hell and everyone involved gets pissed off.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gadgetech on March 02, 2012, 05:56:00 PM

And ducatiz, just because I'm getting a new tank doesn't mean I'm not interested in an aluminum one!!

I gotta say, I'd be interested in one of those as well.  I'm going to pick up the bike tomorrow and we'll see how all that goes but I'm pretty sure I'm going to request a meet with the Ducati rep.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on March 02, 2012, 09:08:30 PM
This whole settlement deal is going to turn out like an octopus trying to make the beast with two backs a set a bagpipes: Ugly as hell and everyone involved gets pissed off.
Truer words have not been spoken...

on the up side...

it was good for the economy. ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rockaduc on March 03, 2012, 04:53:18 AM
This whole settlement deal is going to turn out like an octopus trying to make the beast with two backs a set a bagpipes: Ugly as hell and everyone involved gets pissed off.

Awesome visual!!!   [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SSCR on March 03, 2012, 08:30:21 AM
Dealer called me and my new tank is in! I have under 30 day since it arrived to get it replaced or they have to send it back. I asked about coating the tank but they said they don't offer that, no problem. I found a gas station not too far from me that offers ethanol free (100% pure gas) and plan on keeping a 14 gallon gas can in my garage to refill the bike. If this works out I actually might start shopping for a sport 1000. I'm pretty sure that should do the trick, still upset on how Ducati is handeling this but it is my own fault for not getting involved in the lawsuite. Thanks to everyone here for all the info.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 03, 2012, 08:49:30 AM
Lucky...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gadgetech on March 03, 2012, 06:57:08 PM
I went and picked her up today with the new shoes (PR 3s) and the IMO ridiculous "tank bracket fix".  Imagine the rubber pads that support the tank from the factory are like those fancy sleek puma shoes...okay have that?  Now imagine Frankenstein with a size 15, heavy lugged crap kicker and you now know what the replacement rubber supports look like.  They have ordered the shorter seat as the factory seat is really close to being too far up the tank but I told them they could keep it because intend to fight the decision.  What about the aftermarket seat I planned to purchase...what, oh well...sorry.  I don't think so.  Everyone acts so blase about the whole issue there it really got to me.  The service manager suggested I call DNA myself and see what they say and after stewing on this a bit I started getting more and more frustrated.  The GM came by and said we appreciate your business and I responded with, I'll be in touch soon to further discuss the tank issue (Since it was Saturday and they were busy).  I told him that if Ducati doesn't replace the tank, I'll be selling the bike and that I felt they should be the ones asking the DNA rep to reconsider the issue.  He said he'd get in touch with the DNA rep on Tuesday (they are closed Monday).  IDK if I'll really sell the bike or not but if they are "on my side" then they need to be fighting with me in my corner...not trying to referee. Below are some pics but basically it is a new bracket at the back of the tank to further move the tank back and new rubber pads. 

Pics:

Frankenstein's shoe...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7181/6804664112_4b9f703546.jpg)

Minimal/Non-Existent seat clearance.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7048/6804664626_baf8671b39.jpg)

New bracket at the back of the tank.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7186/6950776791_8cdab377c3.jpg)

Plenty of clearance there now...notice the nice abrasion mark from when the tank was up against the ignition on what is the right (upper in pic) side of the tank.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7053/6950776899_c69d16e919.jpg)

Crappy picture from under the tank looking up at Frankenstein's shoe.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7189/6950777055_fd3e02a695.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 04, 2012, 05:01:06 AM
wow. 

meanwhile all the ~properly~ coated tanks are doing fine.


and look at that hinge bracket.  it looks like over an inch of adjustment available.  not a very sanguine design.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on March 04, 2012, 07:23:46 PM
Sanguine.  I couldn't have gotten through the evening without hearing that word.  You showing off your superior vocabulary, Iz?   [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 04, 2012, 07:28:15 PM
Sanguine.  I couldn't have gotten through the evening without hearing that word.  You showing off your superior vocabulary, Iz?   [laugh]

i was just trying to oblige.. maybe i'm watching too many zombie flicks, you know?  capisco?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 05, 2012, 10:17:01 PM
How in the hex do they decide who gets the bs "kit" and who gets a new tank?  Clearly you should get a new tank IMHO.  I'll be going to peppboys in the morning to get some K100 (until I have the time to go through with the whole casewell thing)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on March 06, 2012, 01:14:25 AM
How in the hex do they decide who gets the bs "kit" and who gets a new tank?  Clearly you should get a new tank IMHO.  I'll be going to peppboys in the morning to get some K100 (until I have the time to go through with the whole casewell thing)

I think it's the cosmetic deformation that gets the kit (ripples, tank latch, or bumpers).

The tanks that are leaking, or something of the like, get the new tank. Don't quote me on that, it's just the impression I got from my dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xsephirot on March 06, 2012, 06:51:59 AM
I think it's the cosmetic deformation that gets the kit (ripples, tank latch, or bumpers).

The tanks that are leaking, or something of the like, get the new tank. Don't quote me on that, it's just the impression I got from my dealer.

The question I have is if you get the BS tank kit does it count as the "replacement" and henceforth you only have 6 months of warranty left? According to the settlement it is 5 years of 18 months whichever is longer. Most of us with older monsters will probably be going by the 18 month rule. And then there is 6 months of additional warranty after the replacement. So say 2 months in you had the BS tank put on then would they say you only have 6 more months left instead of 16?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on March 06, 2012, 07:17:20 AM
It seems like you'd get the longer of the two, but I would have to reread the terms.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 06, 2012, 08:05:40 AM
That kit thing is such BS  [laugh]  I'm going to refer to it as the bs kit from now on... what a two backs beasting joke.  Going to be real interesting to see how this whole thing plays out.  Duc750 that doesn't make any sense b/c if there are tanks that are leaking then a bs kit is not goint to prevent leaking!!! 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on March 06, 2012, 08:49:41 AM
That kit thing is such BS  [laugh]  I'm going to refer to it as the bs kit from now on... what a two backs beasting joke.  Going to be real interesting to see how this whole thing plays out.

I think the ramifications of the "BS Kit" will be played out for years.  Just think of what it will do (has done) for re-sale values of the bikes involved.  This event will sow alot of bad blood for years (please forgive the mixed metaphor).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 06, 2012, 08:53:47 AM
Nordog, my point exactly...if the tanks expand to the point where they leak then the bs kit is not going to prevent that outcome. [thumbsdown]  Look, when a guy goes to buy a new Ducati all he is going to care about is that the bike looks beautiful and that Ducati is winning races and on the cutting edge.  All eyes of the world are on the Panigale not our old bikes.  However I do think their reputation has been tarnished because of this.  To what extent?

If they start using the ethonal gas Europe I think this will turn into a real big stinker for them.  Either way that whole bs kit thing is unacceptable; a joke really.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 06, 2012, 09:41:02 AM
I think it's the cosmetic deformation that gets the kit (ripples, tank latch, or bumpers).

The tanks that are leaking, or something of the like, get the new tank. Don't quote me on that, it's just the impression I got from my dealer.

For the painted tanks, deformation over a certain amount (I think it's 3 or 4 mm in any direction) gets a new tank.

I don't believe there is any option for replacement for unpainted tanks.

Warranty modification is 5 years from purchase or 18 months additional FROM the date of the settlement, whichever is longer.

6 months applies when you have a replacement tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 06, 2012, 09:48:20 AM
Clearly Gadgetechs' tank was painted.  Gadgetech, did you request to just get the tank and then instal it yourself? FYI the dealership gets paid for the labor to instal the tank on your bike.  Perhaps if you requested to instal it yourself there is nothing in it for them and they are just giving you a hard time in return.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on March 06, 2012, 10:29:24 AM
I'll start saving for a steel tank..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on March 06, 2012, 11:03:33 AM
Duc750 that doesn't make any sense b/c if there are tanks that are leaking then a bs kit is not goint to prevent leaking!!! 

That's why I said if the old tanks are leaking then they will get a replacement.

If the cosmetic deformation isn't that bad, yet, DNA wants to go the cheaper route and give the owner the "kit". I think the idea is to avoid giving out new tanks left and right like they were doing before the lawsuit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CrashVR on March 06, 2012, 12:34:26 PM
I'll start saving for a steel tank..
You should be saving for one of those aluminum tanks Ducatiz is having made up.  My plan is to get one and wait to put it on until I get a new one from Ducati so I can coat it and have a backup.  I don't ever want the tank to be an issue for me again.  That said, if it does really end up hurting the resale value and these tanks from Ducatiz become readily available, then these bikes will become a steal on the used market!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on March 06, 2012, 12:43:09 PM
^^  That's what I meant  [wine]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 06, 2012, 01:52:24 PM
Duc750 what I'm saying is if the expansion ultimately causes leaking then a bs kit wont stop the expansion. if you put a kit on and expansion keeps occuring how is that a fix? Does the expansion stop at a certain point?  If yes then I can understand the bs kit and in that case its not bs.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gadgetech on March 06, 2012, 05:19:59 PM
Clearly Gadgetechs' tank was painted.  Gadgetech, did you request to just get the tank and then instal it yourself? FYI the dealership gets paid for the labor to instal the tank on your bike.  Perhaps if you requested to instal it yourself there is nothing in it for them and they are just giving you a hard time in return.

I did ask the service manager if there was anything saying I couldn't take the tank when it came in and install it myself but that was after the determination that I wouldn't get a new tank.  The GM said he would get in touch with the Ducati rep today and if he did, I didn't get a phone call from anyone.  Guess I'll follow up on that tomorrow.  I hate it when people make me act like a jerk and micromanage the whole darn process.  For all I know, he made the call to the rep but it'd been nice if I didn't have to be the one to follow up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on March 06, 2012, 08:28:43 PM
Duc750 what I'm saying is if the expansion ultimately causes leaking then a bs kit wont stop the expansion. if you put a kit on and expansion keeps occuring how is that a fix? Does the expansion stop at a certain point?  If yes then I can understand the bs kit and in that case its not bs.

Not all expanded tanks are leaking, only the unfortunate ones that have expanded at the fuel pump under the tank seem to be leaking. If that's the case then the DOT deems that unsafe for operation and Ducati will replace the tank, as long as it's still within the 18 month period the settlement states.

If it's not leaking the DOT couldn't care less, they're not concerned with cosmetics just functional safety.

This is what was told to me by both my dealer and the woman I spoke with at Gerard Gibbs. That being said, my tank was not leaking and had not expanded as bad as others I've seen and I got a new tank. That's why I said earlier that if the suggestion is to just install the "kit" to press the issue with your (generally speaking) dealer and DNA to get a new tank, the worst that could happen is they deny your claim.

As far as the expansion, it was explained to me that the tanks do have a saturation point and should not expand past a certain point. And, at that, if you remove the tank, drain the fuel and wash and dry the tank it will shrink back to normal (after a couple months). PM ducatiz, he's done all sorts of testing on this part in particular. He explained a bit of it to me but this is my only transportation and can't take the tank off for that long.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 06, 2012, 10:59:22 PM
Quote
As far as the expansion, it was explained to me that the tanks do have a saturation point and should not expand past a certain point. And, at that, if you remove the tank, drain the fuel and wash and dry the tank it will shrink back to normal (after a couple months).


Duc750, thanks this is great information!!! [thumbsup]  I did not know that there was a maximum cieling on the amount of expansion...I like it, as I do not use the bike that often. So since I am being lazy about this Casewll coating what I will do is use K100, keep an eye out for the slightest hint of expansion, and if I see any I will let the tank dry out and then perhaps coat it/let it shrink back.

I think the best way to tell if there is any expansion is to keep an eye on the rubber pads and to listen for any squeeking sounds coming from the front of the seat rubbing against the tank when you sit on it (this squeeking of the seat doesn't occur unless expansion has begun).  

Yes, yes I understand that coating is the best most permanent soution and that if the tank expands there is a chance that all the water will not leave the tank.  I don't use the bike everyday, so whatever.  What an annoying situation this was.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on March 07, 2012, 03:16:30 AM
As far as the expansion, it was explained to me that the tanks do have a saturation point and should not expand past a certain point. And, at that, if you remove the tank, drain the fuel and wash and dry the tank it will shrink back to normal (after a couple months). PM ducatiz, he's done all sorts of testing on this part in particular. He explained a bit of it to me but this is my only transportation and can't take the tank off for that long.

But what they didn't tell you, is that there is no way of knowing what damage has occurred to the actual structure of the nylon during the swelling.  Sure, it might return back to (or at least close) its original dimensions after you drain and dry it, but how the did water absorption effect the molecular structure of the nylon?  Was there enough water absorbed to actual cause damage there?  If so, how much was it weakened?   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 07, 2012, 06:19:42 AM

Duc750, thanks this is great information!!! [thumbsup]  I did not know that there was a maximum cieling on the amount of expansion...I like it, as I do not use the bike that often. So since I am being lazy about this Casewll coating what I will do is use K100, keep an eye out for the slightest hint of expansion, and if I see any I will let the tank dry out and then perhaps coat it/let it shrink back.

I think the best way to tell if there is any expansion is to keep an eye on the rubber pads and to listen for any squeeking sounds coming from the front of the seat rubbing against the tank when you sit on it (this squeeking of the seat doesn't occur unless expansion has begun).  

Yes, yes I understand that coating is the best most permanent soution and that if the tank expands there is a chance that all the water will not leave the tank.  I don't use the bike everyday, so whatever.  What an annoying situation this was.

yeah, the tank saturates at about 10%.  once they hit that, there is no more expansion, but that's pretty big.  the test tank i saturated expanded about 2" in width. 

But what they didn't tell you, is that there is no way of knowing what damage has occurred to the actual structure of the nylon during the swelling.  Sure, it might return back to (or at least close) its original dimensions after you drain and dry it, but how the did water absorption effect the molecular structure of the nylon?  Was there enough water absorbed to actual cause damage there?  If so, how much was it weakened?   

From all accounts, there is no lasting damage to the material once the water leaves.  I've talked with 4 different polymer engineers and they all said the same thing. 

That doesn't mean the moisture can't leave damage.  If it works under the paint and collects in a pocket, it can separate the paint.  Inspect the surface carefully and run your fingertips over it with your eyes closed.  Yes, if your wife walks in while you do this, it looks bad.  Take it from me.  But closing your eyes helps you focus on the surface.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: stopintime on March 07, 2012, 06:26:30 AM
..................
Inspect the surface carefully and run your fingertips over it with your eyes closed.  Yes, if your wife walks in while you do this, it looks bad.  Take it from me. 


 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

Ah - the things you do for us  [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 07, 2012, 06:53:00 AM
I know.. right?  And the abuse I take..   :'( :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on March 07, 2012, 07:46:38 AM
Inspect the surface carefully and run your fingertips over it with your eyes closed.  Yes, if your wife walks in while you do this, it looks bad.  Take it from me.  But closing your eyes helps you focus on the surface.


quietly hum to yourself at the same time....  it will make the situation more awkward for her.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 07, 2012, 07:54:01 AM
 [clap] (that applause is for Ducatiz) 

So basically if you got the kit fix I guess you have to empty out the tank and let it shrink so it doesnt get to the paint.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on March 07, 2012, 12:25:44 PM
[clap] (that applause is for Ducatiz) 

So basically if you got the kit fix I guess you have to empty out the tank and let it shrink so it doesnt get to the paint.

It's probably best to just coat the tank with Caswell if you're gonna drain it. Save yourself future headaches!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on March 07, 2012, 06:58:37 PM
I know.. right?  And the abuse I take..   :'( :'(
Everything you get in this life...

you deserve. :-*

Doesn't always work out well.  :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 07, 2012, 07:32:18 PM
Everything you get in this life...

you deserve. :-*

Doesn't always work out well.  :-\

nah.  plenty of people get things they don't deserve.

but that's another conversation..



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 07, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
Duc750 what I'm saying is if the expansion ultimately causes leaking then a bs kit wont stop the expansion. if you put a kit on and expansion keeps occuring how is that a fix? Does the expansion stop at a certain point?  If yes then I can understand the bs kit and in that case its not bs.

The kits do not stop expansion.

In fact, they allow it.

The kits are designed to permit the tank to expand and not bind on other parts of the bike.

I don't know what happens when the tank CONTRACTS though.  I guess it means you have to get the tank readjusted.

Consider it a "design on the fly"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gadgetech on March 07, 2012, 07:44:30 PM
I don't know what happens when the tank CONTRACTS though.  I guess it means you have to get the tank readjusted.

Consider it a "design on the fly"

I wonder if now that VW owns Ducati  [roll] they will take up a new slogan?  " The all new fully adjustable fuel tank by Ducati...for when your bike gets bloated"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on March 07, 2012, 08:17:53 PM
I know.. right?  And the abuse I take..   :'( :'(

And you considered deleting this thread.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on March 08, 2012, 03:53:21 AM
nah.  plenty of people get things they don't deserve.

but that's another conversation..


I know...

I figured you'd take it in the spirit it was intended...

kidding/sarcasm.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 08, 2012, 06:51:27 AM
And you considered deleting this thread.

-Jeff

Don't tempt me.   ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on March 08, 2012, 09:59:38 AM
VW owns Ducati?????


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on March 08, 2012, 05:11:51 PM
VW owns Ducati?????

Nah, Toyota does:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070409195327AAbTidZ (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070409195327AAbTidZ)

Unless there has been some secret deal, no, Ducati is still up for sale. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Gadgetech on March 08, 2012, 05:41:48 PM
VW owns Ducati?????

I was just being sarcastic myself.  Seems like I've seen that rumor going on somewhere.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on March 08, 2012, 05:50:42 PM
Harley-Davidson is buying Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on March 08, 2012, 06:12:53 PM
Harley-Davidson is buying Ducati.
Nooooo


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on March 09, 2012, 05:55:10 AM
I was just being sarcastic myself.  Seems like I've seen that rumor going on somewhere.

VW would be better than Hero.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on March 09, 2012, 01:52:59 PM
Nooooo

What? Their tanks don't expand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on March 09, 2012, 01:57:01 PM
What? Their tanks don't expand.
I believe they do someone correct me


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on March 09, 2012, 02:03:02 PM
I believe they do someone correct me

Unless I missed someting, the only non steel tanks in the HD line up would be the VRod, and maybe the XR1200.

Maybe those two expand; maybe not.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on March 09, 2012, 02:04:44 PM
Ding ding! Rings a bell. Thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on March 09, 2012, 02:27:07 PM
they expand.  apparently damn near all the plastic tanks are expanding these days.  you're not cool unless your plastic tank expands.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on March 09, 2012, 02:41:20 PM
you can google hd tank expansion and bring up a youtube vid of the xr and it's tank expansion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CrashVR on March 10, 2012, 03:15:13 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Harley own Ducati once before?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 10, 2012, 04:27:37 AM
nope.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on March 10, 2012, 08:04:46 AM
HD owned MV Agusta... Not Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: anderson10 on March 28, 2012, 07:46:00 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Harley own Ducati once before?

I found another mechanic he said he will do my bike for $120, he said hes done it before to a bike, but he said he broke only one light out of all of them, so i might have faith in him in handling my sexy beast. etsnet, unless if u can come nearby my house and do it for me and i pay you $50, or i will just let the guy do it for $120, im gonna try and haggle the price down from the guy too. Thnx


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on March 28, 2012, 12:30:01 PM
I found another mechanic he said he will do my bike for $120, he said hes done it before to a bike, but he said he broke only one light out of all of them, so i might have faith in him in handling my sexy beast. etsnet, unless if u can come nearby my house and do it for me and i pay you $50, or i will just let the guy do it for $120, im gonna try and haggle the price down from the guy too. Thnx
WTF?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on March 28, 2012, 12:54:15 PM
WTF?

You beat me to it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on March 28, 2012, 01:04:25 PM
pretty sure he's a spammer


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on March 28, 2012, 01:07:42 PM
pretty sure he's a spammer
I'd think so, but there are no links in his posts, or in his profile.

He's made the same basic post 3 times.

I'm thinking some sort of scraper bot.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on March 28, 2012, 01:37:44 PM
It's JuDDdDdDDDddddD's revenge!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on March 29, 2012, 09:14:06 AM
It's JuDDdDdDDDddddD's revenge!!

Nah, his revenge would be explaining how a friend of a friend has a dog that owns 20 guns.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on March 29, 2012, 12:21:17 PM
 [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: justinrhenry on March 29, 2012, 03:54:39 PM
i'll do it for $75


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on April 03, 2012, 09:43:44 AM
I figured I would try and bring this thread back on topic with a tank update.javascript:void(0);

I had photos taken of my S2R in January and after bugging the dealer with some phone calls they told me last week that they called Ducati NA and got approval to order a new tank.

They said to check in with them in 2 weeks to see if they got it yet. So I have my fingers crossed hoping this works out.

I plan on coating the tank before it's installed. My question is does the dealer have to install it? Could I pull the pump off the old tank change my fuel filter and just bring the 2 tanks?

Thanks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 03, 2012, 09:46:13 AM
I figured I would try and bring this thread back on topic with a tank update.javascript:void(0);

I had photos taken of my S2R in January and after bugging the dealer with some phone calls they told me last week that they called Ducati NA and got approval to order a new tank.

They said to check in with them in 2 weeks to see if they got it yet. So I have my fingers crossed hoping this works out.

I plan on coating the tank before it's installed. My question is does the dealer have to install it? Could I pull the pump off the old tank change my fuel filter and just bring the 2 tanks?

Thanks!

All of the dealers I've spoken to are required to do the work themselves.  If you have a relationaship with that dealer, they might let you take the new tank and get it coated while they hold your bike (they can't let you have both tanks without approval from DNA).





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on April 03, 2012, 10:39:16 AM
All of the dealers I've spoken to are required to do the work themselves.  If you have a relationaship with that dealer, they might let you take the new tank and get it coated while they hold your bike (they can't let you have both tanks without approval from DNA).





This is what I was told as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on April 03, 2012, 11:06:50 AM
When I replaced the sf tank, the dealer let me take the new tank home as long as I paid a down payment of the cost of the tank.  After I brought it back coated and ready for installation they refunded me the money.  This way they were covered if anything went wrong e.g. me running away with the tank.

Ask your dealer about doing it that way, I'm pretty sure most of them would be ok with it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xsephirot on April 03, 2012, 11:39:51 AM
When I replaced the sf tank, the dealer let me take the new tank home as long as I paid a down payment of the cost of the tank.  After I brought it back coated and ready for installation they refunded me the money.  This way they were covered if anything went wrong e.g. me running away with the tank.

Ask your dealer about doing it that way, I'm pretty sure most of them would be ok with it.

Or if you leave your bike there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 04, 2012, 10:01:13 PM
So assuming the Caswell coating was done improperly and it starts peeling off.  What problem could be caused by having the particles floating inside the tank?  Would it be an expensive repair if the fuel lines get clogged, for example?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on April 05, 2012, 02:47:20 AM
So assuming the Caswell coating was done improperly and it starts peeling off.  What problem could be caused by having the particles floating inside the tank?  Would it be an expensive repair if the fuel lines get clogged, for example?
I don't see how the pieces would get past the pump screen


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 05, 2012, 05:29:50 AM
I don't see how the pieces would get past the pump screen

Where is the pump screen?  I'm guessing from your reply that it's a non-issue?  How do I fish out the particles?  Just drain and rinse the tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on April 05, 2012, 08:44:56 AM
Where is the pump screen?  I'm guessing from your reply that it's a non-issue?  How do I fish out the particles?  Just drain and rinse the tank?
Pump screen is in the tank attached to the pump.

It's a non-issue IMO with regards to the pieces getting in the fuel system.

I guess that would do it, but what are you going to do about the peeling coating?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 05, 2012, 11:23:01 PM
So I'm thinking of sealing my tank with Caswell.  From a bit of research, it seems that I can get the tank to revert the expansion if I dry it out for about a month.  The question is, how close to original can it go back?  The sides of my tank have ripples (specifically the notches for the knees).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on April 10, 2012, 01:44:32 PM
I got the Caswell but I've been having a hard time finding down time to coat my new tank b/c I've been using the bike for transportation so now I definitely have to let it air out for a month to make sure there is no water absorbtion.  I've been running the new tank for about a month now.  Annoying.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 10, 2012, 02:32:03 PM
So I'm thinking of sealing my tank with Caswell.  From a bit of research, it seems that I can get the tank to revert the expansion if I dry it out for about a month.  The question is, how close to original can it go back?  The sides of my tank have ripples (specifically the notches for the knees).

if you have ripples, you have enough water ingress to possible compromise the tank and i would not coat, i would submit it for a replacement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 10, 2012, 02:33:06 PM
I got the Caswell but I've been having a hard time finding down time to coat my new tank b/c I've been using the bike for transportation so now I definitely have to let it air out for a month to make sure there is no water absorbtion.  I've been running the new tank for about a month now.  Annoying.

so you are riding on one tank and coating another?

you will need to let the tank air dry for a while, mine took 2 months to shrink back and then i let it sit for another few weeks before coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 10, 2012, 03:57:05 PM
if you have ripples, you have enough water ingress to possible compromise the tank and i would not coat, i would submit it for a replacement.

It really is not bad. The paint is not peeling or anything.  It's basically a wavy deformation. I'm not sure if you are thinking of a ripple the same as how I'm thinking of a ripple.  Wouldn't drying it out work?  The tank is about 9 months old.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 10, 2012, 04:00:34 PM
so you are riding on one tank and coating another?

you will need to let the tank air dry for a while, mine took 2 months to shrink back and then i let it sit for another few weeks before coating.

Were you able to get it to original form?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 10, 2012, 06:31:06 PM
It really is not bad. The paint is not peeling or anything.  It's basically a wavy deformation. I'm not sure if you are thinking of a ripple the same as how I'm thinking of a ripple.  Wouldn't drying it out work?  The tank is about 9 months old.

If it's just wavy expansion, then it's not a ripple.  Some have had ripples like a potato chip with the paint folding up.

With just wavy surface, you can dry it out.

Were you able to get it to original form?

It is still about 15mm wider than a comparable (virgin) tank, but that was the best I could do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 10, 2012, 09:29:17 PM
If it's just wavy expansion, then it's not a ripple.  Some have had ripples like a potato chip with the paint folding up.

With just wavy surface, you can dry it out.

It is still about 15mm wider than a comparable (virgin) tank, but that was the best I could do.

Thank you for clarifying!  At least you have more fuel capacity. :-)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 11, 2012, 04:47:17 AM
Thank you for clarifying!  At least you have more fuel capacity. :-)

well, yes but at a cost.  the tank will swell to the point that the frame bumpers are off the frame and the front latch cannot be opened and closed normally -- pressing against the keyswitch.  i have seen tanks with an imprint of the keyswitch in the front well as a result of the pressure (and non-diligent owner).

there is no upside to this situation, unfortunately. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on April 11, 2012, 09:27:14 AM
Tank update:

The dealer called today and said they have to order the decals for the tank and wanted to double check on my color combo. Has anyone heard this before? Do they order the tank and decals then have them sent somewhere to be applied and clear coated?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 11, 2012, 09:31:24 AM
That's new.

ALl the tanks I've heard of had the decals on from the factory..  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on April 11, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
That's new.

ALl the tanks I've heard of had the decals on from the factory..  ???


Every tank I unboxed at the dealership when i was parts mgr was 'pre-painted / pre-decaled' - you unbox, switch over the internals, and you bolt it to the bike.  voila.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Africaboy on April 11, 2012, 10:21:55 AM
I got my new tank today. It seems to me that the the nylon, I can see at  the filler neck isn't as bright as on my previous tank. It is almost off-white.  My dealer in Ontario, Canada, said this was the 1st Monster they have done. Thanks Izaak, 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on April 11, 2012, 12:26:01 PM
Maybe the woman was just asking what color combo to order. I don't think they have the tank yet. It was just weird she did make it sound like she had to request the tank and the decals.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 11, 2012, 02:37:52 PM
Maybe the woman was just asking what color combo to order. I don't think they have the tank yet. It was just weird she did make it sound like she had to request the tank and the decals.

there is a separate part # for the tank (with decals) and the decals. she might be unaware of that.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CayoHueso on April 13, 2012, 07:19:53 PM
If anyone is looking for a perfect condition METAL tank off a 2004 S4r.

PM me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 14, 2012, 09:14:53 PM
I took my tank out today to dry it up.  Hopefully in the next month or so I will be able to Caswell.  However, in looking at the inside of the tank, I noticed some "'craters" or "pimples" see below.  Is this normal?  Will the Caswell coating still work even though my tank has these?  Also, when I do the Caswell coating, is it ok to do a couple of coats?  I am thinking of making it thicker by applying one coat, letting it dry, then applying another coat.  Thoughts?

(http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a447/AgentBetlog/photo1-1.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 15, 2012, 04:22:08 AM
I took my tank out today to dry it up.  Hopefully in the next month or so I will be able to Caswell.  However, in looking at the inside of the tank, I noticed some "'craters" or "pimples" see below.  Is this normal?  Will the Caswell coating still work even though my tank has these?  Also, when I do the Caswell coating, is it ok to do a couple of coats?  I am thinking of making it thicker by applying one coat, letting it dry, then applying another coat.  Thoughts?

(http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a447/AgentBetlog/photo1-1.jpg)

Mine had a bunch of those. They were soft and some had fluid trapped in them. I put it in a room for a couple of months with a dehumidifier. It shrank a little, but it never went back to normal and still didn't fit on the frame right. I wound up just getting a new one and coating it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 15, 2012, 04:47:26 AM
Mine had a bunch of those. They were soft and some had fluid trapped in them. I put it in a room for a couple of months with a dehumidifier. It shrank a little, but it never went back to normal and still didn't fit on the frame right. I wound up just getting a new one and coating it.

Did the new one you got have them too?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on April 15, 2012, 05:46:19 AM
Did the new one you got have them too?
Not that I noticed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 15, 2012, 07:42:49 AM
Not that I noticed.

Ok. Thank you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on April 15, 2012, 08:24:00 AM
Did the new one you got have them too?

Yes, they do.  The pimples result from manufacturing.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 15, 2012, 09:18:46 AM
"pop" as many of those as possible so the coating goes inside it.  i used an exacto knife and cut the thin surface away.  if your tank is used, lance them and then let tank dry again.  all of the pa6 tanks I've seen have them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 15, 2012, 10:38:05 AM
"pop" as many of those as possible so the coating goes inside it.  i used an exacto knife and cut the thin surface away.  if your tank is used, lance them and then let tank dry again.  all of the pa6 tanks I've seen have them.

Thanks!  What do you mean by "lance"?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 15, 2012, 10:55:34 AM
Thanks!  What do you mean by "lance"?

medical term.  "stick a sharp object into a pimple or boil to release the fluid therein."

you can either cut away the surface or just make an X in the surface.  the point is to open it up enough so the coating goes INSIDE the void. 

if you have any fluid trapped as DucNaked did, you'll need to make sure to get all of them and then let the tank dry if you want to coat it.

i would probably not coat a tank that had trapped water like that though.  if you miss any, then you've got water trapped under the coating with nowhere to go.  if it ever escapes, then it will cause the coating to release.

if you cut open a few and they're all dry, you're probably safe.

i did my tank and popped all the zits with an exacto knife and a mirror.  none had fluid.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 16, 2012, 09:46:44 AM
medical term.  "stick a sharp object into a pimple or boil to release the fluid therein."

you can either cut away the surface or just make an X in the surface.  the point is to open it up enough so the coating goes INSIDE the void. 

if you have any fluid trapped as DucNaked did, you'll need to make sure to get all of them and then let the tank dry if you want to coat it.

i would probably not coat a tank that had trapped water like that though.  if you miss any, then you've got water trapped under the coating with nowhere to go.  if it ever escapes, then it will cause the coating to release.

if you cut open a few and they're all dry, you're probably safe.

i did my tank and popped all the zits with an exacto knife and a mirror.  none had fluid.

Gotcha.  I was rinsing the tank the other day with Acetone and it got pretty messy (spilled fluid all over the place and over the tank).  Any suggestions on how to seal the filler hole and the filter hole?  I'm thinking of just leaving the fuel tank door and fuel filter on there and rinsing it that way.  Would Acetone damage the filter components?  Thanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 16, 2012, 10:28:51 AM
acetone will damage the paint, but not the pump/etc.

i used a #9 stopper and put it in from the inside.  If you pump iron and have 30" arms you won't be able to do this.

there is a small drain hole next to the filler, I just stuffed some wadded saran wrap in that. 

i used painters blue tape to cover the tank, but there are plenty of options.  I have another tank I might try coating for another bike and I think i'll use mover's cello-wrap instead and use the tape for the openings.

for the bottom, i cut a piece of 1/8" lucite plastic and made a cork O ring for the seal.  I cut a 1.5" hole in the bottom to pour in the coating and another #9 stopper for the hole.  It's a bit anal but it works well.

How you stop up the holes isn't as important as how you prep the tank and how well you cover the outside to keep the adhesive coating off it.

Whatever you think you'll need time-wise to dry the tank, just be patient and err going long.  It's really dry around here right now, ambient humidity is ~30% which is pretty low for here.  with that and a fan blowing into the tank, you can expect it to dry out after a few weeks.  The best way is to measure the bumper mount holes compared to a virgin plastic tank, i don't remember the width offhand (312mm?  330mm??)  but it should be the same fora virgin plastic tank as for a metal tank, but don't quote me.

That measurement is probably the most susceptible to expansion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 16, 2012, 10:47:00 AM
acetone will damage the paint, but not the pump/etc.

i used a #9 stopper and put it in from the inside.  If you pump iron and have 30" arms you won't be able to do this.

there is a small drain hole next to the filler, I just stuffed some wadded saran wrap in that.  

i used painters blue tape to cover the tank, but there are plenty of options.  I have another tank I might try coating for another bike and I think i'll use mover's cello-wrap instead and use the tape for the openings.

for the bottom, i cut a piece of 1/8" lucite plastic and made a cork O ring for the seal.  I cut a 1.5" hole in the bottom to pour in the coating and another #9 stopper for the hole.  It's a bit anal but it works well.

How you stop up the holes isn't as important as how you prep the tank and how well you cover the outside to keep the adhesive coating off it.

Whatever you think you'll need time-wise to dry the tank, just be patient and err going long.  It's really dry around here right now, ambient humidity is ~30% which is pretty low for here.  with that and a fan blowing into the tank, you can expect it to dry out after a few weeks.  The best way is to measure the bumper mount holes compared to a virgin plastic tank, i don't remember the width offhand (312mm?  330mm??)  but it should be the same fora virgin plastic tank as for a metal tank, but don't quote me.

That measurement is probably the most susceptible to expansion.

Very detailed a always. Thank you. I see a bit of a mark on my paint but not sure if it's the acetone that I spilled or if it was from manufacturing.  I see Caswell also mentioned lacquer thinner as an option for rinsing. Would that be ok to use on the fuel system (filter, electronics, tubes, etc)?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 16, 2012, 11:04:48 AM
Very detailed a always. Thank you. I see a bit of a mark on my paint but not sure if it's the acetone that I spilled or if it was from manufacturing.  I see Caswell also mentioned lacquer thinner as an option for rinsing. Would that be ok to use on the fuel system (filter, electronics, tubes, etc)?

wait, you're not leaving the fuel pump in the tank while doing this are you???

big no no!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 16, 2012, 11:32:34 AM
wait, you're not leaving the fuel pump in the tank while doing this are you???

big no no!!

I did not but was wondering if I can.   :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on April 16, 2012, 01:09:07 PM
There is some great information here:  http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54297.45 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54297.45)

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 16, 2012, 01:37:03 PM
There is some great information here:  http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54297.45 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54297.45)

-Jeff

Thanks Jeff.  I noticed that you used the screws to roughen up the inside of the tank.  Is this necessary?  Ducatiz, did you do this as well?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 16, 2012, 04:13:30 PM
Thanks Jeff.  I noticed that you used the screws to roughen up the inside of the tank.  Is this necessary?  Ducatiz, did you do this as well?

its a good idea but im afraid of losing a few nails.  maybe try a steel detail brush or on of those ball shaped ones? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on April 16, 2012, 05:38:09 PM
its a good idea but im afraid of losing a few nails.  maybe try a steel detail brush or on of those ball shaped ones? 

So you didnt do it on yours?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 17, 2012, 07:48:28 AM
So you didnt do it on yours?

No.  I wasn't sure about it at the time, and didn't have any authoritative input on it.  I have spoken with adhesives people who know better than I do and they've all said that scuffing the nylon surface will help adhesion, but likely won't make or break it.

My tank had had less than half a tank of gas in it for less than a month when I drained it and flushed it.  I used the Marine Clean flush (water based solvent) and then water, water water, and then left it to dry with a fan blowing into the fuel pump hole (after hand wiping the inside with paper towels to get as much as possible).

By the time it was done after about a month of that, there wasn't even a faint smell of gasoline, just plastic.

I picked up a fibre optic camera and I may take the tank off when it gets cold and see how the coating looks.  I have a feeling it will be fine.  The exposed part under the filler is fine.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on April 17, 2012, 01:07:11 PM
Thanks Jeff.  I noticed that you used the screws to roughen up the inside of the tank.  Is this necessary?  Ducatiz, did you do this as well?

I threw about 50 screws in the tank to scuff up the sides but I don't really think it did all that much.  It left some fine scratches but hardly gouged the surface much.  As stated above, I don't think it makes or breaks the process.

Just make sure to count them out thoroughly before you throw them in!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 17, 2012, 01:10:16 PM
I threw about 50 screws in the tank to scuff up the sides but I don't really think it did all that much.  It left some fine scratches but hardly gouged the surface much.  As stated above, I don't think it makes or breaks the process.

Just make sure to count them out thoroughly before you throw them in!

the hypothesis is that the rough spots give the epoxy something to "hang" to.  not that they will break the surface completely.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on April 17, 2012, 02:07:42 PM
Thanks Jeff.  I noticed that you used the screws to roughen up the inside of the tank.  Is this necessary?  Ducatiz, did you do this as well?

Trying to dig those last seven screws out of the tank probably did more to scratch up the surface than the screws themselves.  By the way, I could not reach into the tank to lance more than a couple blisters, so I gave them the sign of the cross an buried them under a layer of Caswell's.  Ya do whatcha can.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Ducatamount on May 08, 2012, 04:18:25 AM
http://www.accessnorton.com/ethonal-proof-tank-sealer-myth-t13056.html (http://www.accessnorton.com/ethonal-proof-tank-sealer-myth-t13056.html)
 Some good info and links here.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 08, 2012, 05:10:15 AM
http://www.accessnorton.com/ethonal-proof-tank-sealer-myth-t13056.html (http://www.accessnorton.com/ethonal-proof-tank-sealer-myth-t13056.html)
 Some good info and links here.

that's a real test of my non-english-as-a-first-language reading skills....

the issue is application and curing.  if you don't prep the surface right, or don't mix it right, or don't let it cure properly, it will fail.  once it's dried, it's pretty much inert. 

i have a sample piece of nylon coated in caswell that i dunked into 50/50 ethanol/gasoline (effectively making it >50% by volume).

after 3 months of submersion, the gas/ethanol separated, but the coating did not change.  it wasn't soft or anything. 

unfortunately, the process is prone to human error.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on May 08, 2012, 06:55:58 AM
i like their spelling of ethanol.  ha!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on May 09, 2012, 08:35:55 AM
Question.

I'm just about to order caswells for a new tank. But I read in a post somewhere about fuel additive and also about a lot of people doing a bad job coating their tanks. If I was to be good about adding fuel additive do you think I could get say 7 or 8 years out of a tank before signs of expansion?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on May 09, 2012, 10:46:09 AM
What's going on with the tanks on new Ducatis?

Are we still dealing with plastic tanks that will swell?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on May 10, 2012, 05:19:21 AM
What's going on with the tanks on new Ducatis?

Are we still dealing with plastic tanks that will swell?
My M1100 is made frame the same PA6 as the older bikes.  [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on May 10, 2012, 05:24:45 AM
What's going on with the tanks on new Ducatis?

Are we still dealing with plastic tanks that will swell?
My 2012 1100 EVO, bought it in Oct 2011, did not show any trace of swell so far.
Keeping finger crossed  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Narflar on May 10, 2012, 04:43:23 PM
I got my 1100 Evo last year and let it sit over the winter with a full tank just to see what would happen (yay warranty).  The tank seemed fine.  But the panels and mounts seem designed to allow for the the tank to move.  So maybe it is expanding but it doesn't really matter due them designing around it. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on May 10, 2012, 04:55:25 PM
I got my 1100 Evo last year and let it sit over the winter with a full tank just to see what would happen (yay warranty).  The tank seemed fine.  But the panels and mounts seem designed to allow for the the tank to move.  So maybe it is expanding but it doesn't really matter due them designing around it. 
ding ding ding...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on May 11, 2012, 04:32:53 AM
There's one reason they decided to go with panels.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on May 11, 2012, 05:20:25 AM
That's OK with me. I mean, probably the tank in my car expands too, but as long as it does not cause cosmetic or structural damages, I do not see much of a reason to complain.
I have not yet tried to remove it, so I am not sure if the eventual expansion caused some binding problems with the frame.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on May 15, 2012, 06:41:31 AM
So I just got the call that my new tank is in. I'm going to caswell it but should I order the original or the red die version?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: 77south on May 15, 2012, 06:44:27 AM
I want to thank everyone who has worked so hard on this issue.  Thanks to your hard work and time and lawyers, my local dealership is replacing the tank on my 2006 monster 620d with no fuss.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 15, 2012, 06:49:29 AM
So I just got the call that my new tank is in. I'm going to caswell it but should I order the original or the red die version?

I have "heard" the red version is just a dyed version.  Just give them a call or email and see what they think.

Plenty of people are using the old version just fine.

Prep is the key.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on May 15, 2012, 06:56:59 AM
I have "heard" the red version is just a dyed version.  Just give them a call or email and see what they think.

Plenty of people are using the old version just fine.

Prep is the key.
That's what they say on their site.

I just ordered the red version to try on a multi tank I have to coat.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on May 15, 2012, 07:05:01 AM
Thanks for the quick response, since you guys seem to be very experienced coating tanks can you point me to what you think is one of the better writes. My questions are the normal ones, best way to clean the tank and how thin to make the caswell. Thanks again


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on May 15, 2012, 07:23:21 AM
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54297.msg1004734#msg1004734 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54297.msg1004734#msg1004734)

That thread is pretty good.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on May 15, 2012, 10:48:03 AM
OK, I'm back with one more question to make this thread even longer :)

I called the dealer to setup a appointment to get the tank swapped and pick up the new one to coat it. The person I spoke to said that if I coat the tank and it ever expands again it will not be replaced. Because coating it voids the warranty.

Now I'm back on the fence to coat it our just use some kind of additive reduce the moisture in the tank.

Has anyone heard the warranty issue before?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 15, 2012, 11:23:39 AM
OK, I'm back with one more question to make this thread even longer :)

I called the dealer to setup a appointment to get the tank swapped and pick up the new one to coat it. The person I spoke to said that if I coat the tank and it ever expands again it will not be replaced. Because coating it voids the warranty.

Now I'm back on the fence to coat it our just use some kind of additive reduce the moisture in the tank.

Has anyone heard the warranty issue before?

IF the coating fails AND it is directly related to some kind of tank failure then it would void the warranty, but that is an issue of proof under the law.

Let's say your engine blows and you have a coated tank.  Voided warranty?  Not likely.  The fuel pump and filter would pick up any material.

In fact, I can think of nothing outside of the tank itself that the coating could affect even if it failed miserably -- and the tank failure would be limited to an expanding tank, which you already have.

Most service/dealer people know warranty law slightly worse than I know how to pilot the space shuttle.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dlowenst on May 15, 2012, 11:41:29 AM
My dealer told me the same thing.  I followed the same logic Ducatiz just outlined, and in addition considered the fact that I'm unlikely to get another shot at the (replacement tank) apple anyway, since my bike is a 2006 MY and will very shortly be outside the scope of the settlement.  Also, if the coated replacement tank does expand also, and I take it to a different dealer, I think it's questionable whether they could determine that it was coated (or would care, when filing the claim with Ducati).  So taking all of the above into account, I got my new tank coated before reinstalling and filling it with fuel the first time, despite the warning from my dealer.

Dave


I called the dealer to setup a appointment to get the tank swapped and pick up the new one to coat it. The person I spoke to said that if I coat the tank and it ever expands again it will not be replaced. Because coating it voids the warranty.

Has anyone heard the warranty issue before?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on May 15, 2012, 12:57:04 PM
Thanks, After reading these two post I agree and plan on coating it. You guys are right it isn't likely I would get another tank for a 07 S2R so I should coat it AND use a additive to control moisture to keep it from swelling as long as I can.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: surgfish on May 15, 2012, 01:31:12 PM
Just got my monster 795, I took it out for a spin. After an hour, it overheated, then I heard popping sounds, I was surprised it was the tank.  I hurried home and while parked, I literally saw the whole tank popped off


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 15, 2012, 05:32:17 PM
Just got my monster 795, I took it out for a spin. After an hour, it overheated, then I heard popping sounds, I was surprised it was the tank.  I hurried home and while parked, I literally saw the whole tank popped off

the whole tank popped off???

what does that mean?

the M795 is an Asian market bike, I've never seen one in person..  but it has the same tank as the 696 i think


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on May 16, 2012, 03:36:37 AM
Just got my monster 795, I took it out for a spin. After an hour, it overheated, then I heard popping sounds, I was surprised it was the tank.  I hurried home and while parked, I literally saw the whole tank popped off
Huh?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Pedro-bot on May 16, 2012, 03:56:02 AM
Pics.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: El-Twin on May 16, 2012, 06:03:20 AM
Just got my monster 795, I took it out for a spin. After an hour, it overheated, then I heard popping sounds, I was surprised it was the tank.  I hurried home and while parked, I literally saw the whole tank popped off

Gimme a break....   ???

If you would have kept watching, maybe it would have performed some more tricks for you. Like the trellis-samba rubber-down twist.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SteveO. on May 16, 2012, 10:40:57 AM
ding ding ding...

So a 2011 796 shouldn't be an issue with the tank expanding?  I'm not that familiar with the bike yet, but I haven't seen anything unusual with it, other than a new noise that's driving me nuts.  [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 16, 2012, 10:44:19 AM
So a 2011 796 shouldn't be an issue with the tank expanding?  I'm not that familiar with the bike yet, but I haven't seen anything unusual with it, other than a new noise that's driving me nuts.  [bang]

AFAIK, the 796 tank is a PA6 tank and will deform.  The 796 has a covered tank though so you may never see it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SteveO. on May 16, 2012, 10:55:34 AM
AFAIK, the 796 tank is a PA6 tank and will deform.  The 796 has a covered tank though so you may never see it.

So should I be concerned about it, if it'll never be noticable?  Thanks for the info, I'm a noob trying to learn more about my new bike. ...Steve


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 16, 2012, 11:19:34 AM
So should I be concerned about it, if it'll never be noticable?  Thanks for the info, I'm a noob trying to learn more about my new bike. ...Steve

Some folks have reported the panels being pushed out but I think that's the exception.  A little bit of preventive medicine (i.e. draining the tank when in storage) goes a long way to keeping the tank from absorbing water etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: El-Twin on May 16, 2012, 11:54:35 AM
Some folks have reported the panels being pushed out but I think that's the exception.  A little bit of preventive medicine (i.e. draining the tank when in storage) goes a long way to keeping the tank from absorbing water etc.

If you top-up after every ride, thereby reducing the surface area of fuel exposed to the air, will this help to mitigate absorption?

This has been my running assumption, but I've been wrong before.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on May 16, 2012, 12:04:50 PM
If you top-up after every ride, thereby reducing the surface area of fuel exposed to the air, will this help to mitigate absorption?

This has been my running assumption, but I've been wrong before.

Agreed. And I'm also running pure gas as long as I can still find it. Picked up 10 more gallons yesterday in NC while running an errand. Same price as the "corn" crap too.  ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 16, 2012, 01:01:25 PM
If you top-up after every ride, thereby reducing the surface area of fuel exposed to the air, will this help to mitigate absorption?

This has been my running assumption, but I've been wrong before.

If you are running fuel thru it regularly, i.e. filling and then running it down within a short time, then i think the problem is limited.  I think the problem arises when the fuel is sitting in the tank for a while, regardless how full it is.  The ethanol wicks moisture and separates.  More fuel = more water.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on May 16, 2012, 02:54:10 PM
If you are running fuel thru it regularly, i.e. filling and then running it down within a short time, then i think the problem is limited.  I think the problem arises when the fuel is sitting in the tank for a while, regardless how full it is.  The ethanol wicks moisture and separates.  More fuel = more water.

That seems to mirror my experience.  The times my tank swelled coincided with times it sat for months without being ridden.

Moral of this story?  Ride!   [Dolph]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on May 29, 2012, 06:17:28 PM
Pictures from my tank sealing. The things I learned that I would like to share. I would use the whole batch and then wipe the excess out. I used a coat hanger with a piece of rag to get a spot that wouldn't cover. I also used my iPhone to take photos inside.

(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/60068cb5.jpg)

After first coat
(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/85de7e12.jpg)

(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/9419bd97.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on May 29, 2012, 11:32:10 PM
(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/85de7e12.jpg)

(http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/9419bd97.jpg)


ALIEN STOMACHS!!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on May 30, 2012, 07:41:58 AM
i thought this was a pg13 site?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 02, 2012, 12:12:28 PM
I'm getting ready to take possession of my third tank now, so I have decided to bite the bullet and pay to get it coated.

Where do you buy the coating? How much should this cost?

Thanks for the help.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 02, 2012, 12:19:46 PM
I'm getting ready to take possession of my third tank now, so I have decided to bite the bullet and pay to get it coated.

Where do you buy the coating? How much should this cost?

Thanks for the help.

i've only got experience with the "old" caswells, apparently they have a new version that is red -- but the website says it is the same formula, just colored to make application easier.

http://www.caswellplating.com/restoration-aids/epoxy-gas-tank-sealer.html (http://www.caswellplating.com/restoration-aids/epoxy-gas-tank-sealer.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 02, 2012, 12:22:13 PM
Thanks for the quick response.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 02, 2012, 12:45:11 PM
Thanks for the quick response.

a new tank should be prepped just the same as an old tank.  you can rinse it with acetone (nylon has excellent resistance to acetone)...  but you won't need to rinse it with anything else.  rough the surface the best you can.  wire brush, screws if you're comfortable putting them in, etc. 

PA6 and acetone (have to scroll thru the chart)
http://k-mac-plastics.net/chemical-large.htm (http://k-mac-plastics.net/chemical-large.htm)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Punx Clever on June 02, 2012, 03:52:49 PM
Just went to the dealer to talk about getting my tank replaced... apparently you need to ride your bike into the shop...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 02, 2012, 03:57:47 PM
Just went to the dealer to talk about getting my tank replaced... apparently you need to ride your bike into the shop...

in order for it to be warranty work, they have to have your bike.

some shops will let you take the new tank while they have your bike and have it coated before the install.  if not, it's not a big deal to rinse the gas out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Punx Clever on June 02, 2012, 04:57:00 PM
No big deal in the end... it's my "spare" tank that needs replaced.  Just that the bike is in a bunch of pieces right now, so I'll have to wait until I get everything back together


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 02, 2012, 07:33:20 PM
So I got a new tank, the new "adjustable" hinge bracket and those new fugly oversized rubber mounts on the frame. 
Wtf those things are huge and stick out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on June 02, 2012, 08:07:32 PM
So I got a new tank, the new "adjustable" hinge bracket and those new fugly oversized rubber mounts on the frame. 
Wtf those things are huge and stick out.
Sooo..., either coat it, or run K100 in it with your E-10.  8) http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/ (http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Punx Clever on June 03, 2012, 01:55:18 PM
So I got a new tank, the new "adjustable" hinge bracket and those new fugly oversized rubber mounts on the frame. 
Wtf those things are huge and stick out.

The guys at the local shop mentioned a "kit"... got any pictures?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: El-Twin on June 04, 2012, 07:02:54 AM
Sooo..., either coat it, or run K100 in it with your E-10.  8) http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/ (http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/)

Sooo... If this K100 really works, doesn't it eliminate the need to coat? Their website makes it sound like a panacea, but is it heavily weighted toward advertising BS?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on June 04, 2012, 07:51:12 AM
Sooo... If this K100 really works, doesn't it eliminate the need to coat? Their website makes it sound like a panacea, but is it heavily weighted toward advertising BS?

No idea as I'm still able to run pure gas but ducatiz got independent test results from them which indicates that it does indeed encapsulate a fair amount of water. Want to test it for us?  ;) Several dealers are also recommending the use of K100.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on June 04, 2012, 07:58:21 AM
I went back and forth about coating or k100 / Startron / dry gas. In the end I just went for coating the tank. I want to have this bike (S2R1k) for a long time and didn't see Ducati giving me another free tank in 3 or 4 years. If the tank never swells and I only loss a little fuel capacity I will be happy. I ended up putting the full MC kit in and then wiped out as much as I could which was around 1/4 of what went in. I split the kit and thinned it because I was worried about lost capacity but in the end I had a couple spots that didn't cover. On the second coat I used a coat hanger with a piece of rag to paint it on some pieces.

If I had to do it again I would used 3/4 of the kit thinned 5% and get a 3ft vent brush. I would pour it in the fuel pump hole and bush the inside of the tank to get it to cover quicker. then I would put the cover on get it to coat by the pump hole. then take the pump hole cover off lean it to get extra epoxy on the top by the pump hole and wipe it out with gloves and rags.

I really like things to be perfect so it bugs be a little that it has to be coated. I just felt that even if I was really good about additives it could still swell and it was going to cost more in additive than the coating since I put about 8 to k10 a year on the bike.

I would love to hear from someone that has been using additive for a bunch of years with on swelling.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: El-Twin on June 04, 2012, 08:10:09 AM
Want to test it for us?  ;) Several dealers are also recommending the use of K100.

Maybe I will. :) I think I'll ping my dealer to see if they have an opinion.

I would love to hear from someone that has been using additive for a bunch of years with on swelling.

Me too!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 04, 2012, 08:29:02 AM
Sooo... If this K100 really works, doesn't it eliminate the need to coat? Their website makes it sound like a panacea, but is it heavily weighted toward advertising BS?

From what I read in the review, it may not eliminate it but it reduces the amount of potential exposure. 

The review was done by Lukoil for their own purposes, not by the makers of K100. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 04, 2012, 08:31:32 AM
If I had to do it again I would used 3/4 of the kit thinned 5% and get a 3ft vent brush. I would pour it in the fuel pump hole and bush the inside of the tank to get it to cover quicker. then I would put the cover on get it to coat by the pump hole. then take the pump hole cover off lean it to get extra epoxy on the top by the pump hole and wipe it out with gloves and rags.

I made a clear plastic cover for the fuel pump hole and drilled a hole for a stopper.

I put a #9 stopper into the filler hole from the INSIDE.

I poured in the coating from the fuel pump hole and then put a stopper in from the outside. 

I didn't thin mine, but it seems to have coated just fine.  I would thin it if I did it again.

vent brush? 
(http://www.bebeautiful.com/files/441264.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on June 04, 2012, 08:34:08 AM
Maybe I will. :) I think I'll ping my dealer to see if they have an opinion.

Me too!

For reasons of liability, if I were you're dealer, I wouldn't suggest anything which they didn't have in writing from DNA. You could ask him whether he's replaced ANY new style tanks though. The last time I spoke to mine, they hadn't, and he's large. LOTS of painted tanks though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 04, 2012, 08:37:17 AM
For reasons of liability, if I were you're dealer, I wouldn't suggest anything which they didn't have in writing from DNA. You could ask him whether he's replaced ANY new style tanks though. The last time I spoke to mine, they hadn't, and he's large. LOTS of painted tanks though.

Under the terms of the settlement, ONLY painted tanks can be replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on June 04, 2012, 08:43:26 AM
Under the terms of the settlement, ONLY painted tanks can be replaced.

Trust YOU to read the fine print.  ;) If I ever HAD an issue, I'd replace mine with a PEX tank from Germany anyway.

Long story short, what DOES DNA say they'll do for a New Monster tank which is causing the covers to bulge? Maybe they think they have the issue under control?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: El-Twin on June 04, 2012, 08:59:47 AM
Long story short, what DOES DNA say they'll do for a New Monster tank which is causing the covers to bulge? Maybe they think they have the issue under control?

Right. For the new Monsters with the skins, you could have an issue and not even know it. In which case I guess it wouldn't be an issue. Would it?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on June 04, 2012, 10:10:08 AM
This is the vent brush I got to clean the tank. I would use it if I did it again to paint the caswell on.
http://tinyurl.com/ch3k9zv (http://tinyurl.com/ch3k9zv)

I did the same thing for my pump opening.

http://s1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/?action=view&current=60068cb5.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/?action=view&current=60068cb5.jpg)

I got the idea from a post that could have been yours.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 04, 2012, 10:16:39 AM
This is the vent brush I got to clean the tank. I would use it if I did it again to paint the caswell on.
http://tinyurl.com/ch3k9zv (http://tinyurl.com/ch3k9zv)

I did the same thing for my pump opening.

http://s1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/?action=view&current=60068cb5.jpg (http://s1165.photobucket.com/albums/q591/M-S2R-1000/?action=view&current=60068cb5.jpg)

I got the idea from a post that could have been yours.



 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 04, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
The guys at the local shop mentioned a "kit"... got any pictures?
Yup
(http://www.hoosierhooligans.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=221.0;attach=2076;image)

(http://www.hoosierhooligans.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=221.0;attach=2078;image)

(http://www.hoosierhooligans.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=221.0;attach=2080;image)


(http://www.hoosierhooligans.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=221.0;attach=2082;image)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 04, 2012, 03:56:10 PM
(http://www.hoosierhooligans.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=221.0;attach=2084;image)

(http://www.hoosierhooligans.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=221.0;attach=2086;image)

(http://www.hoosierhooligans.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=221.0;attach=2088;image)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Punx Clever on June 04, 2012, 07:00:31 PM
Hmm... I see what they did there.  It's annoying... but not too bad.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on June 05, 2012, 04:16:06 AM
The rubber mounts will look better as your tank expands :P 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on June 05, 2012, 05:47:39 AM
bazinga


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 05, 2012, 05:53:31 AM
bazinga
The rubber mounts will look better as your tank expands :P 
[laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Hank025 on June 05, 2012, 03:12:45 PM
I'm slowly realizing that I am coming to a crossroads.

1.)Go to the dealership and get a new tank, have it coated and potentially push the problem down the road 
2.)Go to the Dealer, have them hack up my seat mount by installing new hardware to allow for expansion
 or
3.) Wait for the Metal Tanks to go into production (no rush [roll] ;D), spend my own money and only have to worry about infamous tank dings

I think I might just ride my bike like i normally would, and replace the tank with a metal one when they become available (hopefully for not so ridiculous sums of money  ;) ). I think whether you plan to hold onto the bike long term or short term a metal tank will add way more value (if there is any left) than a coated one. Just my $0.02

What do you guys think? Anyone else gonna wait out this storm too? Or am I just lazy?


...seriously though, when can i put my order in for a new metal tank?

Edited:Guess I always crushed my beer cans before i took a magnet to them (thx Wng)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on June 05, 2012, 03:23:29 PM
The metal tanks that most people are making are aluminum, so no magnetic bags for you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: El-Twin on June 06, 2012, 08:17:10 AM
I think I'll ping my dealer to see if they have an opinion.

Just talked to my dealer. They have had no tanks returned at all for the newer Monsters yet. Whether that is because they are under the skins is still an unknown. For what it's worth, he states that "it has been fixed at Ducati."

Thay do recommend Star Tron, though, for general use.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 06, 2012, 08:48:08 AM
Just talked to my dealer. They have had no tanks returned at all for the newer Monsters yet. Whether that is because they are under the skins is still an unknown. For what it's worth, he states that "it has been fixed at Ducati."

yup, fixed...  [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on June 06, 2012, 01:21:40 PM
I will be using Xylene to thin the Caswell a bit, does anyone know where I can get a small can of it?  Home depot doesn't seem to carry it (at least their site does not).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 06, 2012, 03:23:51 PM


they carry it in a gallon can.

also called xylol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on June 06, 2012, 07:32:33 PM

they carry it in a gallon can.

also called xylol.
Thanks. That's too much.  Anywhere they sell it on a smaller size?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on June 06, 2012, 07:38:25 PM
Thanks. That's too much.  Anywhere they sell it on a smaller size?

Go to a real hardware store (not a big box store).  Some examples, are ace, do it best, or even sherwin williams would probably have it in a quart.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 06, 2012, 07:43:57 PM
Thanks. That's too much.  Anywhere they sell it on a smaller size?

where are you located?  I'll happily siphon some off for you if you're near DC..

you only need about an ounce or so, and I'll never drink all this xylene by myself

alternatively:

http://www.amazon.com/Sunnyside-82232-Quart-Xylol-Solvent/dp/B000BZZ400/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1339040735&sr=1-1-catcorr (http://www.amazon.com/Sunnyside-82232-Quart-Xylol-Solvent/dp/B000BZZ400/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1339040735&sr=1-1-catcorr)

smallest you'll find is a qt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: K3V1N on June 07, 2012, 06:57:48 AM
I'm in CT and had to get a gallon. Hopefully I will never need xylene again


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Betlog on June 08, 2012, 11:47:56 AM
where are you located?  I'll happily siphon some off for you if you're near DC..


Thanks for the offer. I'm all the way in California. I'll look around the local hardware shops I guess.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on June 08, 2012, 03:29:58 PM
Thanks for the offer. I'm all the way in California. I'll look around the local hardware shops I guess.

probably banned in Cali as unsafe  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on June 09, 2012, 08:46:20 PM
Just talked to my dealer. They have had no tanks returned at all for the newer Monsters yet. Whether that is because they are under the skins is still an unknown. For what it's worth, he states that "it has been fixed at Ducati."

Thay do recommend Star Tron, though, for general use.

I've had my M1100 EVO for about a year now and 7,300 miles with no discernible swelling that I've noticed.  Although, if it increases the volume of the tank I'd probably be fine with that.   [laugh]

Seriously though, I had the panels off today and the tank shows no signs of swelling at all.  Panels all still line up as they should.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2012, 10:52:11 PM
I've had my M1100 EVO for about a year now and 7,300 miles with no discernible swelling that I've noticed.  Although, if it increases the volume of the tank I'd probably be fine with that.   [laugh]

Seriously though, I had the panels off today and the tank shows no signs of swelling at all.  Panels all still line up as they should.

where do you live and do you use pure gas?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on June 10, 2012, 07:50:54 PM
where do you live and do you use pure gas?

San Diego, and I just use premium pump gas. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: poseur on July 09, 2012, 06:45:35 PM
San Diego, and I just use premium pump gas. 

Why premium???  [popcorn]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on July 10, 2012, 07:30:54 AM
Why premium???  [popcorn]

Because chicks dig it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on July 11, 2012, 12:18:47 PM
Why premium???  [popcorn]

Because that's what the owners manual says to run in it?   [Dolph]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on July 11, 2012, 12:58:49 PM
[singing] do ron ron ron do ron ron

My owner's handbook says to use fuel with an octane rating of 95 RON, which in American gasoline is upwards of 10 octane points lower.

If you're in America, no need to put premium fuel in the tank of your Monster.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on July 11, 2012, 03:46:35 PM
[singing] do ron ron ron do ron ron

My owner's handbook says to use fuel with an octane rating of 95 RON, which in American gasoline is upwards of 10 octane points lower.

If you're in America, no need to put premium fuel in the tank of your Monster.

Meh, it's an extra $35 over the course of 1 year...    ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on July 11, 2012, 07:08:09 PM
Meh, it's an extra $35 over the course of 1 year...    ;)

Does the $35 cover fouled plugs and excessive carbon build up?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on July 11, 2012, 08:08:34 PM
Does the $35 cover fouled plugs and excessive carbon build up?
ducpainter is always singing the same song, and while this may indeed be true of the older 2-valve bikes with ~ 9.x:1, the newer Siemens bikes with 11.x:1 specifically call for "a minimum of 98 octane", which is ~ 91+ in NAS pump gas (AKI rating) terms.

Since these Siemens bikes are running essentially a car EFi system but without knock sensors to retard the timing, no way I'd consider running less than 91 (M+R/2) in my 796.

Consider other variables as well vs your proven experience. I'm running pure gas 93 in a rural area blend. Possibly most people experiencing the carbon build-up you noted are running E-10 and urban blends? Currently there are something like 150+ blends sold in the U.S., so is it really wise to make sweeping generalizations?

Incidentally, and "old school" I realize, but none of my Dellorto bikes and my 851 which were all tuned on the rich side, ever had excessive carbon or anything other than a light tan porcelain tip and the rest free of deposits. No carbon on the intakes either, and that was running mainly Sunoco 94 or even straight CAM II.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on July 12, 2012, 02:59:01 AM
ducpainter is always singing the same song, and while this may indeed be true of the older 2-valve bikes with ~ 9.x:1, the newer Siemens bikes with 11.x:1 specifically call for "a minimum of 98 octane", which is ~ 91+ in NAS pump gas (AKI rating) terms.

Since these Siemens bikes are running essentially a car EFi system but without knock sensors to retard the timing, no way I'd consider running less than 91 (M+R/2) in my 796.

Consider other variables as well vs your proven experience. I'm running pure gas 93 in a rural area blend. Possibly most people experiencing the carbon build-up you noted are running E-10 and urban blends? Currently there are something like 150+ blends sold in the U.S., so is it really wise to make sweeping generalizations?

Incidentally, and "old school" I realize, but none of my Dellorto bikes and my 851 which were all tuned on the rich side, ever had excessive carbon or anything other than a light tan porcelain tip and the rest free of deposits. No carbon on the intakes either, and that was running mainly Sunoco 94 or even straight CAM II.
...and I'll continue singing it.

Did you ever solve your cold running issue?

Did you even try lower octane fuel? I didn't think so. Until you do, and experience pinging, I'm going to maintain you're wrong.

The carbon problem from high octane fuels has been around far longer than E-10. That isn't the issue.

High octane fuels are designed to be more difficult to burn and create the carbon build up in street engines that don't see the kind of service that might require the anti detonation properties of high octane.

The fact you haven't experienced carbon build up doesn't make high octane fuel the correct choice. It also doesn't mean you won't

Remember...manuals and the recommendations in them are only released after being approved by lawyers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on July 12, 2012, 05:13:51 AM
...and I'll continue singing it.

Did you ever solve your cold running issue?

Did you even try lower octane fuel? I didn't think so. Until you do, and experience pinging, I'm going to maintain you're wrong.

I agree - compression ratio alone (9.5:1, 13.1:1, etc) isn't the whole story - there's also ignition advance and valve timing that create higher pressures.

High octane fuels are designed to be more difficult to burn and create the carbon build up in street engines that don't see the kind of service that might require the anti detonation properties of high octane.
Not sure I'd say "harder to burn" but rather "designed to ignite at higher temperature / pressure"

Remember...manuals and the recommendations in them are only released after being approved by lawyers.
[coffee]   $$$    ;D

On a serious note - its done that way to manage/mitigate risks:  If there are risks that the bike may encounter predetonation with some fuel blends when encountering a variety of other conditions (temperature, DP performance catalog accessories, altitude, regularity of bowels, fuel manufacturer, etc), its less risky to advise everybody to use a fuel that eliminates this possibility than chance it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on July 12, 2012, 07:35:47 AM
Does the $35 cover fouled plugs and excessive carbon build up?

Well, with the small size of my tank and the amount of fuel that could be contained in the 3 in 1 hoses at most pumps I'd bet I've been putting in a fair bit of regular and mid-grade unleaded in my bike anyway.

I'm dropping my bike off tonight for the first valve adjustment so I'll ask the mechanic there what he recommends I run.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on July 12, 2012, 07:39:21 AM
...and I'll continue singing it.

Remember...manuals and the recommendations in them are only released after being approved by lawyers.

LOL!   [clap]

The fact is, back when I used premium my bike ran like crap.  It got to the point that it wouldn't run at all because the plugs were fouled so much.  This is a problem that has not returned since I began burning regular gas.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on July 12, 2012, 07:42:33 PM
Did you ever solve your cold running issue?
50/50 on the cold start. Today, after sitting for two weeks because it's been 102 F - 106 F down here since before "the Great Storm", it fired right up. Not the way it's supposed to..., but it started first go. It was 85 F and sunny and I wasn't missing a brisk 50-mile lunch ride, NO WAY!!!  ;D

Are you familiar with Siemens EFi and Siemens cold start protocols? Unfortunately I am as we had it on one of our car models for 5 years. Can be a real PITA because Siemens sometimes takes shortcuts with the software.

Anyway..., for the first 500 miles, the bike started per the drill. Then it developed a hiccup. "Normal" is turn the key on, wait for the ECU to scroll through everything on the display until the total mileage comes up, then hit the starter. It's "supposed" to start, idle at 2,000, and then quickly settle to 1,200.

When it starts, as in today, it goes right to 1,200 RPM. If it fails to catch the first time, no amount of recycling will bring it to life until you've tried ~ 15 times. Bit hard on the equipment!

BTW, it ALWAYS fires, but sometimes doesn't catch. If I were able to keep the starter turning, it would probably always catch. Problem is..., as soon at it fires even once, the ECU disables the starter. Then cranking becomes more or less futile.

On another forum ages ago I found a M1100S owner with identical symptoms who discovered a workaround. Very simple. When it fails to catch, wait 5 minutes and try again. Without fail, fires right up if I do. Still not the correct protocol though as it idles at 1,200 immediately. If I run it for 15 seconds and THEN restart, it follows the "normal" protocol, i.e. 2,000 settling to 1,200. (Ask me whether I've seen this before... 8))

At 900 miles at my first service, Donnie and I put the bike on the computer after changing the oil and doing a bunch of other stuff. It was cold, but not STONE cold. Roughly 30 parameters were within spec, defaults reset..., and then we fired it up, which it did "normally", and we allowed it to warm up and watched the O2 sensors come online. Nothing showed.

Maybe Donnie could find something if I towed ($$$) it up there stone cold 140 miles, but he's aware and I'm not travelling until I actually NEED something.  ;)

My conclusion: from past Siemens experience, there is a duff component on the board which is intermittent, and/or two sensors are nominal but together throw off the already very lean starting mixture, and/or my valves loosening up compounded the above.

Now to your agenda: the "5 minute wait" workaround is suggestive of the duff ECU component but pretty much eliminates fuel volatility as a factor.

I'm not questioning your knowledge or experience with Marelli bikes. Whether that applies to the new bikes which are meeting Euro 3/US EPA regs a different way, time will tell. In the event it does, I'll run some CF-5 through it occasionally. Can't hurt and definitely takes care of the issues your raise. CF-5 was the best way to deal with multiple misfire codes and MIL lights caused by carbon on intakes. http://www.bgprod.com/products/fuelair.html (http://www.bgprod.com/products/fuelair.html) Not snake oil, manufacturer-approved by BMW, Benz, Land Rover, et al.

The only pure gas available to me is 93 or 87. Not planning on burning 87 in the thing or mixing. Sure, I could hear a death rattle, but minor detonation is almost inaudible on a bike and is still harmful. Why risk it?

A full Termi kit might well cure my cold start if I happened to get a good ECU but I'm not that unhappy with the bike in stock trim. Could be fatter in the midrange and if Donnie approves, the next time the bike is up there, I might ask him to source some Dynojet O2 manipulators from a PC-V kit. The bike goes well enough and makes enough noise currently to satisfy me anyway.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lawbreaker on July 13, 2012, 01:53:30 PM
Just thought i'd chime in... again.


I'm on my 3rd tank and it's elongated to the point where i'll be visiting the dealer AGAIN for a new tank...


Tank #4 here i come !!


-waiting for word on an Aluminum tank so i can mount it and forget it !


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: JDub713 on July 15, 2012, 08:43:07 PM
Just thought I'd chime in... again.


I'm on my 3rd tank and it's elongated to the point where i'll be visiting the dealer AGAIN for a new tank...


Tank #4 here i come !!


-waiting for word on an Aluminum tank so i can mount it and forget it !


Not sure if you've stated it previously, but of all the tanks you've done, have you had any of them coated yet? Seems to be a hit/miss thing as far as preventing swelling. I have tank #2 coming from Italy right now, figured since my settlement warranty extension is only 6 months from replacement date, I may as well void my tank warranty and try the caswell coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on July 16, 2012, 06:24:57 AM
LOL!   [clap]

The fact is, back when I used premium my bike ran like crap.  It got to the point that it wouldn't run at all because the plugs were fouled so much.  This is a problem that has not returned since I began burning regular gas.

I talked to the service department at my Ducati dealer and they also recommended I run premium gas in my bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 16, 2012, 06:26:53 AM
I talked to the service department at my Ducati dealer and they also recommended I run premium gas in my bike.

They probably told you to only use Shell Advance 4T as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: bmonty72 on July 16, 2012, 06:49:14 AM
I talked to the service department at my Ducati dealer and they also recommended I run premium gas in my bike.

I believe that is because there is a better chance of getting ethanol free fuel when you buy the premium grade.  Unfortunately, even if you buy the premium at a station where there is one hose for three grades of fuel, you run the chance of getting a little ethanol with each tank....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 16, 2012, 06:52:13 AM
I've bought gas up and down the east coast and if there is ethanol in the 87, there is ethanol in the 93.

of course y'all are all smart enough to know that "mid" grade is just a mix of the two.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 16, 2012, 11:41:43 AM
I've been exclusively using Chevron or Shell premium and I'm on my third tank.

By the way, is there a good tutorial on how to coat a tank with Caswells? I have the tank and the coating, but I need to read up on the process.

Thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: MikeZ on July 16, 2012, 11:56:05 AM
The tutorial section is your friend
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58355.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=58355.0)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Airborne on July 16, 2012, 01:02:04 PM
so without reading 170pages of thread....If im already on my second tank and need a third, can I still get a third for free after the law suit?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on July 16, 2012, 02:44:28 PM
so without reading 170pages of thread....If im already on my second tank and need a third, can I still get a third for free after the law suit?

Only after passing a comprehensive oral and written essay examination covering the 170 pages of this thread.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on July 16, 2012, 04:05:14 PM
I've been exclusively using Chevron or Shell premium and I'm on my third tank.

By the way, is there a good tutorial on how to coat a tank with Caswells? I have the tank and the coating, but I need to read up on the process.

Thanks

A friend of mine did it to his Sport Classic and I helped him with it.  He did a write up on one of the forums... I think it was on the ducati.ms one for the Sport Classic.  I'll see if I can find it and post a link.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on July 16, 2012, 04:07:59 PM
Thanks SD Rider. I'm about an hour and 1/2 from you in the hot, hot land of El Centro. Perhaps we'll meet on a twisty road some day in a much cooler land.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on August 02, 2012, 03:50:36 PM
I was under the impression that stb-bil only makes fuel stabilizer and that that is what the Ducati dealership wants to be put in the new fuel tanks to supposedly prevent expansion.  HOWEVER I think it is noteworthy to point out that Sta-bil makes Ethanol treatment which "Helps remove water".  Is this a new product by Sta-bil?  Is this what the dealership recommended to put in the tank or fuel stabilizer?  Anyways I'm coating my tank soon.  I think coating is a cheaper, more permanent, and cost effective solution, but was just wondering about this.  Apologies in advance if this has already been mentioned.

I don't see why this product wouldn't work:
Sta-Bil Ethanol Fuel Treatment-Marine Formula (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NTLAELazhI#)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 02, 2012, 04:29:55 PM
Email them and ask if they have any independent testing showing the new color with the same MSDS works better.

Same stuff.  Both help the burn of ethanol and water.  Both are minerap spirits and naphtha.   Only one product has any independent testing showing it can help some with E10 crap..

I was under the impression that stb-bil only makes fuel stabilizer and that that is what the Ducati dealership wants to be put in the new fuel tanks to supposedly prevent expansion.  HOWEVER I think it is noteworthy to point out that Sta-bil makes Ethanol treatment which "Helps remove water".  Is this a new product by Sta-bil?  Is this what the dealership recommended to put in the tank or fuel stabilizer?  Anyways I'm coating my tank soon.  I think coating is a cheaper, more permanent, and cost effective solution, but was just wondering about this.  Apologies in advance if this has already been mentioned.

I don't see why this product wouldn't work:
Sta-Bil Ethanol Fuel Treatment-Marine Formula (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NTLAELazhI#)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: uclabiker06 on August 02, 2012, 07:17:34 PM
No kidding  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: theprocess on August 03, 2012, 08:27:03 AM
Sure some others have reported the same somewhere in this 160+ page thread, but I've been using Shell V-Power (almost) exclusively since I got my bike new. Shell V-Power here in the great white north has 0% ethanol content. Removed my tank the other day to get the the battery and it hasnt bulged or buckled one bit...pulled straight out of the rubber mounts without fuss.

Glad to hear Ducati has stepped up but by the sounds of it replacing the tanks with the same doesnt really address the issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Ducatamount on August 07, 2012, 01:01:18 PM
OK,how about upping the ethanol content to 15% per EPA?  >:(
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/opinion/commentary-drought-dries-up-any-reason-for-corn-et/nP9wP/ (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/opinion/commentary-drought-dries-up-any-reason-for-corn-et/nP9wP/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on August 07, 2012, 01:15:33 PM
OK,how about upping the ethanol content to 15% per EPA?  >:(
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/opinion/commentary-drought-dries-up-any-reason-for-corn-et/nP9wP/ (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/opinion/commentary-drought-dries-up-any-reason-for-corn-et/nP9wP/)

Purchase of E15 will be, at least for now, voluntary.  Educate your friends and family about the danger and environmental issues of using E15 and maybe it will go away, particularly with the much faster than inflation price increase of corn and everything corn related.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2012, 02:05:23 PM
Purchase of E15 will be, at least for now, voluntary.  Educate your friends and family about the danger and environmental issues of using E15 and maybe it will go away, particularly with the much faster than inflation price increase of corn and everything corn related.

Don't get cornholed by corn ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on August 07, 2012, 07:10:15 PM
Don't get cornholed by corn ethanol.

Too late :(

Got corn holed back in '79.  Fuel injectors, warm up regulator and fuel distributor.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on August 08, 2012, 08:59:29 AM
Purchase of E15 will be, at least for now, voluntary.  Educate your friends and family about the danger and environmental issues of using E15 and maybe it will go away, particularly with the much faster than inflation price increase of corn and everything corn related.


When researching a new van for the shop, I found out about compressed natural gas. Now I'm pissed I went 40+ years of my life before finding out about it. $2/gallon, so clean the oil always looks new, solo-hov in CA and UT, comes from USA so $ stays in USA. The 5.2L V8 in my van was cleaner than my Scion xB and cost the same to drive. So I sold the box and bought a natural gas Honda Civic GX.

Now dreaming of a natural gas fueled 796 powered 1199... :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 08, 2012, 09:11:30 AM
When I was in Europe a long time ago, came back in 82', they had american cars/trucks used in fleet opeartions like Taxi's running on natural gas. And they had pumps for the stuff al over the place mostly Netherlands, Belguim, Northern Germany as I recall, yet we still have done nothing like that - hard to believe. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on August 08, 2012, 09:49:37 AM
Yeah there are like 1000:1 ratio of gasoline pumps to NGV pumps, but there are enough that I've given up gasoline on all my cages. cngprices.com has a map. Oh, and of course, there's an app for that.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 08, 2012, 10:13:02 AM


When researching a new van for the shop, I found out about compressed natural gas. Now I'm pissed I went 40+ years of my life before finding out about it. $2/gallon, so clean the oil always looks new, solo-hov in CA and UT, comes from USA so $ stays in USA. The 5.2L V8 in my van was cleaner than my Scion xB and cost the same to drive. So I sold the box and bought a natural gas Honda Civic GX.

Now dreaming of a natural gas fueled 796 powered 1199... :P

Ford had CNG Rangers for a while, but I don't see them anymore.

Dodge: http://www.mopar.com/ram/2500/2012/shop/335762/164/ (http://www.mopar.com/ram/2500/2012/shop/335762/164/)

GMC Savana 2500 is available with a 6.0L CNG


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on August 08, 2012, 11:02:38 AM
Purchase of E15 will be, at least for now, voluntary. 

AMA action alert:

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/rights/issueslegislation (http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/rights/issueslegislation)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 08, 2012, 11:26:33 AM
I alerady posted as it's own thread http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=59005.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=59005.0) - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on August 08, 2012, 04:19:00 PM
Ford had CNG Rangers for a while, but I don't see them anymore.
GMC Savana 2500 is available with a 6.0L CNG

I use the California ARB "eligible vehicles list (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm)" as my shopping guide. :) Van is a 2001 Dodge and my cng cage is a 2007 Civic. Most companies suppress the existence of NGVs from the public so you have to ask the fleet managers. 2012 is the first model year that Honda publicly talked about the Civic GX, which has been America's Cleanest Car for many years. They've been selling the GX since 1998.

The GSA Auto Auction has 5 or so of the Civic GXs coming up. In Ohio, which I would consider flying to if I didn't already have mine.

:)

eta cool link: http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults_by_tech.php?tech=43 (http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults_by_tech.php?tech=43)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: koko64 on August 09, 2012, 09:38:59 PM
We have plenty of it (Liquid Petrolium Gas) available down here in Australia. The Fed govt has provided a cash grant for folk wanting to add it to their vehicles. Converting over cost me zero. My 85 Ford Fairmaont has a 65 litre tank for LPG as well as the standard gas (petrol) tank of 70 litres, so excellent range for long trips. Unfortunately some gas companies sneek a fair bit of butane in with the propane and bond it with parafin, so I run petrol or gas as you call it to clean things out once in a while.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: axle167 on August 14, 2012, 11:02:42 AM
Does anyone have any experience with this expanding tank issue dealt with by Ducati dealership in Canada under this extended warranty?  Specifically Vancouver?  Thanks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 14, 2012, 11:33:55 AM
Does anyone have any experience with this expanding tank issue dealt with by Ducati dealership in Canada under this extended warranty?  Specifically Vancouver?  Thanks!

Good question, you should start a thread in one of the Canada boards.  I haven't talked to any Canadians regarding this problem and the lawsuit only affected US owners.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 14, 2012, 11:49:12 AM
What is the situation in Canada involving E fuels? - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 14, 2012, 11:57:20 AM
What is the situation in Canada involving E fuels? - Gene

they are required to have an average of 5% in all fuel sold.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: axle167 on August 14, 2012, 12:29:50 PM
they are required to have an average of 5% in all fuel sold.

unless you go to Chevron for the 94 or Shell for their 91, it says on the pump that there are no ethanol in it.

Then again, it also says on the pump that the high prices we are paying are because of taxes and not corporate greed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 14, 2012, 12:32:50 PM
Then it would appear if there is a problem it is caused by the user/owner who elected to use fuel containing ethanol or am I missing something? - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 14, 2012, 01:52:33 PM
Then it would appear if there is a problem it is caused by the user/owner who elected to use fuel containing ethanol or am I missing something? - Gene

Its a fleet average of 5%.  They can sell up to 10%.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: axle167 on August 14, 2012, 02:58:16 PM
Then it would appear if there is a problem it is caused by the user/owner who elected to use fuel containing ethanol or am I missing something? - Gene

you are missing the link between using ethanol gas and expanding tank as I don't think anyone will elect to knowingly expand their tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 14, 2012, 05:48:05 PM
I'm just responding to what you said, "it says on the pump that there are no ethanol in it" unless they are putting ethanol in those blends and lying abut it. Why would I elect to use "Chevron for the 94 or Shell for their 91"? In my state, Virginia, we have very little choice, we have only a few stations with no ethanol, the rest are 10%. Now if we have proof the tanks are expanding with ethanol free fuel, well that would be interesting and another whole thread. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: MostroS2R on August 23, 2012, 07:41:20 AM
Where I am, in Ottawa. 91 doesn't have ethanol.
I put shell 91 to be safe. My bike is a 07 and there is no tank problem as of yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 23, 2012, 07:46:29 AM
I was driving through Iowa recently they only have ethanol in the 89 gas and clearly marked. It was also cheaper than the 87 & 92.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 23, 2012, 08:05:45 AM
Yeah and other corn prodcuing states are the same way. None of the gas stations I went to in Indy had any E fuel, nor did the 2 stations I stopped at in West Ohio. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 23, 2012, 10:51:00 AM
Oh no there's ethanol in Indiana's gas.  I had 3 gas tanks replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on August 24, 2012, 05:00:09 AM
Where I am, in Ottawa. 91 doesn't have ethanol.
I put shell 91 to be safe. My bike is a 07 and there is no tank problem as of yet.

I only use Shell V-Power (91) which has no ethanol in Ontario (I have tested the gas to confirm - I'm sure they will slip it in  at some point before they change the label on the pump).  So far, my Sport 1000 has no signs of expansion, and my Monster seems fine (though the evidence would be tougher to spot on the current gen Monsters).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mbld on August 28, 2012, 11:33:10 AM
I'm in Toronto, Ontario.  I picked up a 2007 S2R1000 earlier this summer.  Looks like the tank doesn't sit flush on the frame, but it's only on one side, where it seems to have moved out laterally by a couple of mm -- similar to the examples Ducatiz posted (of the yellow monster), but not as pronounced.

I was curious though, so I got in touch with a local dealer.  They said the problem is being handled differently in Canada.  They will provide a new tank mount kit (free of charge), but would have to charge for the install work.  Or I could do it myself.  Part #69926311A.  It's supposed to consist of new rubber mounts and a bracket that allows for lateral and longitudinal expansion of the tank.  Anyone have experience with it?  I'm wondering if it's worth it.

The only downside seems to be the potential of a seat clearance issue... which if it happens, they would order a replacement seat.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 28, 2012, 11:43:55 AM
The solution sucks doesn't it. That seat will end up being cut down to accomodate the tank swelling, then if the tank ever goes back to original shape the seat won't fit properly.  FWIW this FU band aid approach is all spelled out in the settlement, but it is my understanding that the dealer should do the correction at no cost to you. Seems strange to me that they would allow you to do it, then you could claim the kit if faulty. I'll defer to Ducatiz. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on August 28, 2012, 11:47:07 AM
I believe Grifo has posted photos of the mount kit on this thread. I'm too lazy to look for it.  [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on August 28, 2012, 11:51:03 AM
The solution sucks doesn't it. That seat will end up being cut down to accomodate the tank swelling, then if the tank ever goes back to original shape the seat won't fit properly.  FWIW this FU band aid approach is all spelled out in the settlement, but it is my understanding that the dealer should do the correction at no cost to you. Seems strange to me that they would allow you to do it, then you could claim the kit if faulty. I'll defer to Ducatiz. - Gene

last I checked, Toronto is not part of the US. The settlement does not cover Canada. In theory, there could be a Canadian class action against Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 28, 2012, 12:17:35 PM
I believe Grifo has posted photos of the mount kit on this thread. I'm too lazy to look for it.  [coffee]
Page 164  [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mbld on August 28, 2012, 12:41:06 PM
Page 164  [coffee]

Sweet, thanks!  Grifo, did you experience seat clearance issues?  I am assuming this only happens if there's a lot of longitudinal expansion... 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on August 28, 2012, 02:06:22 PM
Yeah and other corn prodcuing states are the same way. None of the gas stations I went to in Indy had any E fuel, nor did the 2 stations I stopped at in West Ohio. - Gene

Those two states do not require labeling.  Here are two lists of states that do and do not require labels at the pump.:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html (http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 28, 2012, 03:54:01 PM
Thanks, I had no idea. Look at that stuff, looks to me like there is a whole bunch of places where you won't know unless you test it on the spot. What a mess all because of something that makes no sense anyway. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on August 29, 2012, 04:26:17 AM
You can pretty much assume if the part of the US you are in is populated you are filling up with E10.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 29, 2012, 04:56:06 AM
Sweet, thanks!  Grifo, did you experience seat clearance issues?  I am assuming this only happens if there's a lot of longitudinal expansion... 
My seat still fit just fine


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 29, 2012, 06:18:50 AM
Seat problems will occur if you have to slide the tank backward so that the rubber bumpers on the tank fit the frame. That is why the rear tank bracket has slots. Everytime I post about this the more pissed off I get what a FU solution, settlement.  [thumbsdown]  [thumbsdown] [thumbsdown] [thumbsdown]- Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on August 29, 2012, 08:04:43 AM
Did you send Tiz your objection to the settlement when he requested it? if you did, then you should be pissed. By that point I was not in the country, so my objection was irrelevant.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on August 29, 2012, 09:53:44 AM
I sent mine directly. And I also sent a lengthy letter directly to DNA. They have lost the sale of two new ducati's, I'm keeping what I have, except for the S2R1000. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on August 29, 2012, 12:01:49 PM
Like I said, in that case you should be pissed simply because you did as much as possible.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: bmonty72 on August 31, 2012, 05:42:26 PM
 I was at my local dealership the other day, ordering tank #3.  I asked which new Ducati models had their fuel tank made from the same material... The answer was "pretty much all of them".  I love my Monster, but am I afraid I will not want to buy another Ducati until they find something better to use.  I try  to buy the higher octane fuel to avoid ethanol as much as possible, but there is always some fuel in the hose left over from the person who pumped gas before you.  If there is approx. a half gallon of fuel left over in the hose, I am getting 1/6th of a tank of Ethanol "enriched" fuel with each fill-up... [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bishamon on September 01, 2012, 04:57:49 AM
  If there is approx. a half gallon of fuel left over in the hose, I am getting 1/6th of a tank of Ethanol "enriched" fuel with each fill-up... [bang]

With my Sport 1000, I fill up my truck first, then fill a gas can, test the gas in the can for ethanol, then fill my Sport 1000 from the can.  I have successfully avoided ethanol, but this method would be quite a hassle with a daily ride.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on September 01, 2012, 05:32:50 AM
For those of you who have uncoated tanks, I wonder if it would be possible to add a drain petcock to the tank.

Using E10 fuel is fine provided it doesn't sit in the tank.  If there was an easy way to drain the tank after a ride into a can, and then pour it back in when you're ready to ride, would you?

One of the "features" to be included in my aluminum tank is a drain.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on September 01, 2012, 07:08:13 AM
For those of you who have uncoated tanks, I wonder if it would be possible to add a drain petcock to the tank.

Using E10 fuel is fine provided it doesn't sit in the tank.  If there was an easy way to drain the tank after a ride into a can, and then pour it back in when you're ready to ride, would you?

One of the "features" to be included in my aluminum tank is a drain.

Sweet  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: axle167 on September 01, 2012, 01:31:10 PM
I'm in Toronto, Ontario.  I picked up a 2007 S2R1000 earlier this summer.  Looks like the tank doesn't sit flush on the frame, but it's only on one side, where it seems to have moved out laterally by a couple of mm -- similar to the examples Ducatiz posted (of the yellow monster), but not as pronounced.
I was curious though, so I got in touch with a local dealer.  They said the problem is being handled differently in Canada.  They will provide a new tank mount kit (free of charge), but would have to charge for the install work.  Or I could do it myself.  Part #69926311A.  It's supposed to consist of new rubber mounts and a bracket that allows for lateral and longitudinal expansion of the tank.  Anyone have experience with it?  I'm wondering if it's worth it.

That 's a lot better than the response I got from my local dealer in Vancouver.  they offered me nothing and denied all liability because 1. I'm not the original owner, 2. the year of my bike 2007, 3. the mileage on it 38,000 KMs or 22,000 miles.  it seems we will need either a class action or a recall initiated by Transport Canada in order for Ducati to do anything in Canada.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: LA on September 01, 2012, 08:16:04 PM
I'm getting a new tank this Wednesday, but it's the same plastic as before. What the make the beast with two backs?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on September 01, 2012, 08:46:01 PM
I'm getting a new tank this Wednesday, but it's the same plastic as before. What the make the beast with two backs?


All replacement tanks are the same material. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: LA on September 02, 2012, 06:28:29 PM
Yea, I know. They have to install the new tank and I'll have to bring it home, remove the tank and internals and then coat it.  Wish they'd just let me trade my old tank in and give the the new one.

And I figured I'd replace the fuel pump as the bike has over 40k miles and turns out a new fuel pump is $995. Settles that.

I am thankful to be getting a new tank though.  [bow_down]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: LA on September 07, 2012, 10:09:43 AM
Got the new tank installed at Myers in Ashville NC.  Damn nice people. They even washed the bike.

I've got a "real" gas station about one mile from home and another at my work 20 miles away. If I just pay attention, I shouldn't have to use bad gas anytime soon.

I do plan to do the coating at some point though.

LA [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on October 05, 2012, 12:52:08 PM
I went to find out about replacing my tank a few weeks ago (which had finally started to show significant issues last summer.) I wasn't sure I was going to come away satisfied, since the dealer had to push it up the food chain....until today when I got a call to let me know my new tank was ready to pick up!

Cheers to Moto Milano [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on October 05, 2012, 02:55:47 PM

Cheers to Moto Milano [thumbsup]

Well your the first person I've ever heard say that.  They dicked me around for about five weeks until I contacted DNA. Come to find out they never even submitted the claim. DNA called me and had the tank at the shop in about a week. DNA=  [thumbsup]
MotoMilano=  [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on October 07, 2012, 03:48:38 PM
Well your the first person I've ever heard say that.  They dicked me around for about five weeks until I contacted DNA. Come to find out they never even submitted the claim. DNA called me and had the tank at the shop in about a week. DNA=  [thumbsup]
MotoMilano=  [thumbsdown]

well, that was my one and only experience with the shop, but i can't complain..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on October 24, 2012, 09:35:19 PM
I have had my new tank for about 2 1/2 years now and the tank is getting pretty bad.  It has had the little bumps and expanding for a while now.  Lately though I am noticing even more.  Last time I lifted my tank I barely was able to get it latched. :\ 
What is the longest someone has still shown success with caswell?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: LA on October 26, 2012, 03:43:21 PM
I got my new tank about a month ago. It was a pleasant experience.

Except for the gas the shop put in, I've not had to run alcohol fuel yet.

Have to coat the tank if I do have to start running alcohol.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Johnny5 on October 26, 2012, 05:28:06 PM
So... I have tried a little bit of searching but came up with nil (Though in truth I didn't look THAT hard)... those of us with newer monsters, 696, 796, and in my case 1100 EVO... do we (or will we) suffer from this same issue at some point?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on October 26, 2012, 06:20:23 PM
New monsters should be ok-ish. It's a PE tank under covers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on October 26, 2012, 06:27:31 PM
So... I have tried a little bit of searching but came up with nil (Though in truth I didn't look THAT hard)... those of us with newer monsters, 696, 796, and in my case 1100 EVO... do we (or will we) suffer from this same issue at some point?
The new tanks are made from the same PA or PA6 (in the USA) as the old tanks. They are just covered by exterior skins.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on October 26, 2012, 07:17:21 PM
i thought i heard that the new monsters were prone to fuel leaking around the base of the fuel pump..?? got nothing to back that up,...just thought i heard/read it somewhere around


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on October 27, 2012, 12:31:23 AM
The new tanks are made from the same PA or PA6 (in the USA) as the old tanks. They are just covered by exterior skins.

What is PA? Painted monster plastic tanks are nylon, aka PTFE. Without cutting a new monster tank open, I'm assuming they are PE, polyethylene. Leaks at flanges happen. One or two not a big deal, shouldn't be many in the big picture.

Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 27, 2012, 03:08:57 AM
What is PA? Painted monster plastic tanks are nylon, aka PTFE. Without cutting a new monster tank open, I'm assuming they are PE, polyethylene. Leaks at flanges happen. One or two not a big deal, shouldn't be many in the big picture.

Chris

No!

PA is polyamide not PTFE.  The tanks are PA6 or Nylon 6.  It even says so on the bottom.  Ptfe cannot be rotomolded into a strong enough structure.

All of the later models with nonpainted tanks are also pa6.  Some nonUS models with nonpainted tanks have XLPE tanks.  I believe the streetfighter has an HDPE tank though.

All US monsters have pa6 tanks to date.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on October 27, 2012, 03:28:52 AM
What is PA? Painted monster plastic tanks are nylon, aka PTFE. Without cutting a new monster tank open, I'm assuming they are PE, polyethylene. Leaks at flanges happen. One or two not a big deal, shouldn't be many in the big picture.

Chris

Go back to page 78 in this thread.  Scroll down.  At least one US 696 tank is PA6.  I think there is a problem getting PTFE through the EPA shed test.





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on October 27, 2012, 04:12:36 AM
Go back to page 78 in this thread.  Scroll down.  At least one US 696 tank is PA6.  I think there is a problem getting PTFE through the EPA shed test.





That's my tank. It's a 1100.  ;)

This is what's on the underside of my m1100 tank


(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rllout/skins/skins006.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Howie on October 27, 2012, 04:25:32 AM
Go back to page 78 in this thread.  Scroll down.  At least one US 696  1100 tank is PA6.  I think there is a problem getting PTFE through the EPA shed test.






Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on October 27, 2012, 01:14:01 PM
Oh right PTFE is teflon, not nylon. I checked an `08 Hyper tank and it's got the PA recycle symbol on it. Hmmmm, what's got me is that the Hyper tanks are pretty thin compared to the Monster tanks. So they probably swirled in the pigment for the HM tanks, which I can see when holding it up to a light and looking through it.

This makes my recent chemical research all the more important...  [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: clb5335 on November 28, 2012, 07:47:34 PM
I promise I read 40+ pages on this thread before giving up and just asking the question.  Has the caswell coating proved to be effective over the long term?  are there any other effective solutions?

Ducatiz,
thanks a ton for all the effort you have put into researching this problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 28, 2012, 07:55:46 PM
Done correctly, the caswell coating should last.

My first tank is on over 2 years.  That's the original white formula.  I did two more tanks since and prepped them differently and used xylene to reduce the caswells.  So far so good.

I think its easy to screw up.  Wash and dry the tank several times and rinse south with xylene right before you coat.  You dont have to get all the xylene out but try.  It will eat your paint too so watch out.

Also don't do what Ducati did and use 100% ethanol in the tank as that may compromise the coating.  Why you'd even have access to 100% fuel ethanol is beyond me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: clb5335 on November 28, 2012, 08:06:12 PM
thanks for the suggestions.  I have zero interest in doing this type of work myself.  wrenches don't bother me a bit.  Paint or anything similar, I let someone else take care of it.  I'm about to go after another warranty tank.  any suggestions on a shop to do the coating for me?  I'm in Houston, but i don't mind paying shipping to get it fixed right if that's what it takes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2012, 07:04:09 AM
You're on your own with finding a place to do it for you, and frankly, unless you know them very well and they have a history of doing the tank coatings, I would not pay someone to do it.

There is too much to go wrong, and zero liability for it.  If they don't prep the tank, it is no skin off them.  You get no guarantee.

It's not worth the extra money for me. 

I have heard of some reputable tank coaters, but I don't know who they are.  Even if they are well intentioned, it is not a science and there will still be no guarantee.

If they guarantee their work in writing, then I would go for it.  I would pay plenty for that warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on November 29, 2012, 08:14:42 AM
I promise I read 40+ pages on this thread before giving up and just asking the question.  Has the caswell coating proved to be effective over the long term?  are there any other effective solutions?

Ducatiz,
thanks a ton for all the effort you have put into researching this problem.

The only failures I've heard about tend to be because of improper coating.

And I would suggest doing it yourself and being slow and careful about it.  It's pretty easy to miss spots and unless you have 100% trust in someone making sure it's gotten full coverage I'd feel more comfortable doing it myself... I've done two tanks at this point and it's tedious but not hard.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on November 29, 2012, 09:52:01 AM
It is still an absolute shame owners have to go through this. I'm still pissed about the resolution of the class action suit, the EPA who is guilty as hell and also about to unleash E85 on us, and the lack of a better solution across brands/models. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on November 29, 2012, 10:56:12 AM
As someone who's been through 2 tanks, and had the sceond one coated which is now also swelling due to what seems to be improper coating, I can say it really sucks!
While I love my Monster, everytime I look at the tank it kills me.
But in some ways the thought of spending $1000.00+ dollars on an aluminum tank to stop the problem from happening again isn't much better.
This feels like the proverbial rock and a hard place situation.

jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 29, 2012, 11:47:21 AM
As someone who's been through 2 tanks, and had the sceond one coated which is now also swelling due to what seems to be improper coating, I can say it really sucks!
While I love my Monster, everytime I look at the tank it kills me.
But in some ways the thought of spending $1000.00+ dollars on an aluminum tank to stop the problem from happening again isn't much better.
This feels like the proverbial rock and a hard place situation.

jimi

This is exactly why I sold my S4RS two weeks ago (to a dealer btw).  It was on its third tank.  On the day that I took it in to finalize the deal I noticed that that one was warping and swelling too.

I love Ducatis, but I'll never own another one that doesn't come with a metal tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on November 29, 2012, 11:51:57 AM
Well you don't have to go that far. Many of the new models have covers and underneath is an ugly fuel cell that may or may not expand but you'll never know it. FWIW the new 848 SE, which looks to be a really nice bike,  has an Alum tank and it turns out for $1K you can get one for any 848 from Ducati. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 30, 2012, 09:04:40 AM
Weel you don't have to go that far, many of the new models have covers underneath is an ugly fuel ceel that may or may not expand but you'll never know it. FWIW the new 848 SE, which looks to be a really nice bike,  has an Alum tank and it turns out for $1K you can get one for nay 848 from Ducati. - Gene

Such a deal.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on November 30, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121130/AUTO01/211300415/AAA-urges-EPA-halt-approval-E15-vehicles (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121130/AUTO01/211300415/AAA-urges-EPA-halt-approval-E15-vehicles)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on December 01, 2012, 01:23:01 PM
As Ethanol is rolled out and deteriorates rubber fuel system parts, we will see a LOT more "car-b-ques" in a handful of years. It's a great method to eliminate old cars; no one will want to replace the entire fuel system with one that's been fluorinated to help with Ethanol resistance. BTW, the key word is "help"...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hbliam on December 01, 2012, 03:13:10 PM
This is exactly why I sold my S4RS two weeks ago (to a dealer btw).  It was on its third tank.  On the day that I took it in to finalize the deal I noticed that that one was warping and swelling too.



What did they say when you pointed that out?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 01, 2012, 05:16:11 PM
What did they say when you pointed that out?

Who cares?  In the words of Ducati: 'it's your problem now, sucker.'


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 02, 2012, 07:29:22 AM
So sad you had to sell it for that very reason Nordog.   
So where is the new tank Ducatiz was working on?   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2012, 07:54:33 AM
Working out issues with the hinge.  I don't want a leaky hinge alu tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 02, 2012, 03:13:33 PM
everyone can live with that.  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 03, 2012, 09:15:09 PM
What did they say when you pointed that out?

"Caveat Emptor"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hbliam on December 04, 2012, 04:48:15 PM
"Caveat Emptor"


Wow.

Glad I didn't buy it. You didn't bother telling me either.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dry Martini on December 04, 2012, 06:05:42 PM
Wow.

Glad I didn't buy it. You didn't bother telling me either.

After all this time and the countless stories of gas tank woes, you should be fully aware of ANY plastic gas tank problems.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 04, 2012, 07:11:40 PM
Wow.

Glad I didn't buy it. You didn't bother telling me either.

It was not discovered until the day I took it to the dealer.  The dealer went over the entire bike with a fine tooth comb and knew exactly what he was buying.

I would not have knowingly sold the bike with a swollen tank to someone.

So, FTR, I didn't tell you the tank was swollen when you considered buying it 5 to 6 months ago, because, well, the tank was fine last summer.  Heck, it was fine at the beginning of November.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 04, 2012, 07:12:19 PM
After all this time and the countless stories of gas tank woes, you should be fully aware of ANY plastic gas tank problems.

Well, there is that.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on December 04, 2012, 07:20:14 PM
Well, there is that.

I assume that used monsters in the years between metal tanks and skins will not hold much residual value if people do any homework before purchasing.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dry Martini on December 04, 2012, 07:46:10 PM
I assume that used monsters in the years between metal tanks and skins will not hold much residual value if people do any homework before purchasing.

I doubt it. For someone that has done their home work, they know that coating the tank works and is not all that expensive, and will use it to get a couple hundred knocked off the price.

This problem is not unique to Ducati. Triumphs and Aprilias are affected as well...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hbliam on December 04, 2012, 08:06:11 PM
It was not discovered until the day I took it to the dealer.  The dealer went over the entire bike with a fine tooth comb and knew exactly what he was buying.

I would not have knowingly sold the bike with a swollen tank to someone.

So, FTR, I didn't tell you the tank was swollen when you considered buying it 5 to 6 months ago, because, well, the tank was fine last summer.  Heck, it was fine at the beginning of November.

I was referring to it being on a third tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 05, 2012, 06:00:47 AM
This problem is not unique to Ducati. Triumphs and Aprilias are affected as well...

At last count there are 25 bikes/models on the list. I like some of the other solutions, back to metal tanks. Why is Ducati still selling models such as the 848 streetfighter with the same potential problem?

- Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2012, 06:14:17 AM
At last count there are 25 bikes/models on the list. I like some of the other solutions, back to metal tanks. Why is Ducati still selling models such as the 848 streetfighter with the same potential problem?

- Gene

It is >possible< that Acerbis has come up with either a different formulation or some sort of barrier that prevents moisture from being absorbed.  I haven't heard of any 848s affected yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 05, 2012, 06:45:03 AM
If they had I'm sure there woud be plenty of reasons to make that part of the sales pitch, I'm not aware on any such thing. Believe what you want, personally I'm glad I did not buy one. And still pissed about having to get rid of my S2R1000. Cannot imagine how someone with a PS feels, such a neat bike but..... The new Hyperstrada shows possibilities but I'm not sure I want to buy another new Ducati, given thier actions on models with the plastics tanks. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 05, 2012, 06:57:41 AM
If they had I'm sure there woud be plenty of reasons to make that part of the sales pitch, I'm not aware on any such thing. Believe what you want, personally I'm glad I did not buy one. And still pissed about having to get rid of my S2R1000. Cannot imagine how someone with a PS feels, such a neat bike but..... The new Hyperstrada shows possibilities but I'm not sure I want to buy another new Ducati, given their actions on models with the plastics tanks. - Gene

This


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: MadDuck on December 05, 2012, 08:54:52 AM
It is >possible< that Acerbis has come up with either a different formulation or some sort of barrier that prevents moisture from being absorbed.  I haven't heard of any 848s affected yet.

I've already had one tank replaced on my 848 and am getting ready to request that the second tank be replaced.  Might go the Al tank route.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2012, 10:34:47 AM
I've already had one tank replaced on my 848 and am getting ready to request that the second tank be replaced.  Might go the Al tank route.

Wow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 05, 2012, 11:36:25 AM
what a shame that the stubbornness has prevailed.....so far.  I hope Audi makes some drastic changes because I really, really want that Multi next year. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dry Martini on December 05, 2012, 02:42:57 PM
I love riding my S2R, even with the tank issue. I went the aftermarket plastic tank route and that is less than satisfactory. So I will be coating the OEM tank.

I see no reason to sell a bike I already own, or preclude me from buying a new Ducati. Now if you want to talk about those silly "Transformer" headlights... :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: danaid on December 05, 2012, 03:26:23 PM
I've already had one tank replaced on my 848 and am getting ready to request that the second tank be replaced.  Might go the Al tank route.
  I was planning on buying one but I will wait a while longer for a panigale version.

 Sad that Ducati does not fix this and is not worried about its reputation. I've talked to people who have stopped me to admire my bike, many have said they would love to own a Ducati but have heard that they are very unreliable and parts take months to get ( what they remember about Ducati's from 10-20 years ago?). Now they will be known for their expanding fuel tanks.

 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 05, 2012, 05:30:56 PM

I see no reason to sell a bike I already own, or preclude me from buying a new Ducati. Now if you want to talk about those silly "Transformer" headlights... :D

That is what they are depending on, other brands got pressure from potential buyers and did something to fix the problem rather than put a band-aid on it. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 05, 2012, 05:43:35 PM
That is what they are depending on, other brands got pressure from potential buyers and did something to fix the problem rather than put a band-aid on it. - Gene

Again, this. 

I'ved loved Ducs for a very long time, but...  I've also been getting closer and closer to walking away from them for the last couple of years partly due to this debacle and how they've handled it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on December 05, 2012, 06:37:03 PM
I've already had one tank replaced on my 848 and am getting ready to request that the second tank be replaced.  Might go the Al tank route.

I think ducatiz meant the SF848, not the 848sbk


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Charlief on December 07, 2012, 02:04:21 PM
My 05 S2R800 is getting its 3rd tank this week. Took less than two weeks to get approval and the new tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on December 07, 2012, 06:07:59 PM
I'm reading this thread and I hate seeing all the frustration. It isn't Ducati's fault. Nor is it Acerbis' fault. If someone wants to point a finger, point one at the states with excess corn crop who lobbied for the asinine ethanol program. And point at the legislature who voted for it. And also point at the people who elected them. Still, I'm not convinced ethanol is the lone evil component in all of this.

Acerbis is working with nylon because it is understood to be good practice for use to contain gasoline and prevent emissions. And nylon is hideously expensive to make tanks from! The powder used to make a tank is somewhere near $500 to purchase. Right now, the best that the automotive industry can do is multi-layered blow molding with a layer or two of teflon mixed in. Then they added fluorine gas treatment to layer(s) of polyethylene during construction as this forms a great barrier. The latest I have read is the auto industry has come to the conclusion the best hope for gasoline with alcohol (ethanol) is fluorinated polyethylene mono layer construction.

With the near-term restart of our polyethylene Monster tanks, we will have them delivered out of state to be fluorinated so as to meet CARB requirements. Hopefully, the marketplace will be more receptive to this release of the MTT tank than before. The mold section for the top of the tank is nearly completed being carved from billet. This way, when I polish it, there won't be blemishes in the surface. Added to the new top finish, we have a new rotational molding company that knows how to properly "cross-link" our tanks. Once properly cross-linked, polyethylene is supposed to have the best dimensional stability with regard to gasoline. Finally, add in the fluorination to form the inner and outer barriers to reduce the ability for fuel vapor to penetrate the plastic and I would like to think our tanks will be a stable product, and one that will be paintable. I look forward to seeing how the fluorinated polyethylene tanks handle gasoline and perform.

- Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2012, 07:02:48 PM
Chris,

I've been involved in this for almost 3 years now. 

You're right, ethanol is not the "lone evil component", the evil component is water, and indirectly, ethanol. I am sure my comments on the matter have been buried in the many pages.

PA6 nylon absorbs water, up to 10% of its volume, and as a result, expands.  To a lesser extent, it absorbs ethanol, but the culprit here is WATER.

Water can be present in any motor fuel, but ethanol (and all alcohols) absorb it directly from the air.  Pure gasoline will absorb about 1% by volume water when in a high-humidity environment, but ethanol can absorb 10 times that. 

The water-absorbent properties of PA6 are well known.  IT doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a gas tank is going to get some water in it, and since "E10" has been the law in most of the United States for more than a decade, it stands to reason that the product would have been tested for fitness in one of its biggest markets.

I don't think Ducati could have known that, they ordered a tank from a supplier.  The supplier should have understood that, however, I didn't buy the bike from Acerbis, I bought it from Ducati.

We can pregnant dog about the quality of the fuel we have on the market, but we also should expect manufacturers to produce vehicles that are compatible with the crappy fuel we have.  Other manufacturers are making gas tanks that are unaffected by ethanol or water. Why not these?

I have a virgin tank that I cut pieces from and tested.  You can do the same.  Cut a piece off and measure it.  Then dunk it in some water, leave it there for a day.  Take it out and measure it the next day.  It will be about 8-10% wider, taller and thicker.  Likewise with an ethanol solution (10-20%).  It will expand a very small amount, 2-5% max.

It's notable that Ducati is not using PA6 tanks everywhere.  Some are XLPE.






I'm reading this thread and I hate seeing all the frustration. It isn't Ducati's fault. Nor is it Acerbis' fault. If someone wants to point a finger, point one at the states with excess corn crop who lobbied for the asinine ethanol program. And point at the legislature who voted for it. And also point at the people who elected them. Still, I'm not convinced ethanol is the lone evil component in all of this.

Acerbis is working with nylon because it is understood to be good practice for use to contain gasoline and prevent emissions. And nylon is hideously expensive to make tanks from! The powder used to make a tank is somewhere near $500 to purchase. Right now, the best that the automotive industry can do is multi-layered blow molding with a layer or two of teflon mixed in. Then they added fluorine gas treatment to layer(s) of polyethylene during construction as this forms a great barrier. The latest I have read is the auto industry has come to the conclusion the best hope for gasoline with alcohol (ethanol) is fluorinated polyethylene mono layer construction.

With the near-term restart of our polyethylene Monster tanks, we will have them delivered out of state to be fluorinated so as to meet CARB requirements. Hopefully, the marketplace will be more receptive to this release of the MTT tank than before. The mold section for the top of the tank is nearly completed being carved from billet. This way, when I polish it, there won't be blemishes in the surface. Added to the new top finish, we have a new rotational molding company that knows how to properly "cross-link" our tanks. Once properly cross-linked, polyethylene is supposed to have the best dimensional stability with regard to gasoline. Finally, add in the fluorination to form the inner and outer barriers to reduce the ability for fuel vapor to penetrate the plastic and I would like to think our tanks will be a stable product, and one that will be paintable. I look forward to seeing how the fluorinated polyethylene tanks handle gasoline and perform.

- Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 07, 2012, 07:13:17 PM
There is plenty of blame to go around and the biggest may be the one left out, the EPA. But regardless of how we got there the remedy that Ducati came up with quite frankly sucks and it will be a tranish on the brand for a long time. And knowing the problem exists they sell new motorcycles such as the 848 superbike and streetfighter with a known problem? - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on December 07, 2012, 08:23:10 PM
There is plenty of blame to go around and the biggest may be the one left out, the EPA. But regardless of how we got there the remedy that Ducati came up with quite frankly sucks and it will be a tranish on the brand for a long time. And knowing the problem exists they sell new motorcycles such as the 848 superbike and streetfighter with a known problem? - Gene
+100% agreement


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on December 10, 2012, 09:58:21 AM
the remedy that Ducati came up with quite frankly suck

Actually this might not be 100% correct.

It's not the remedy Ducati came up with, it's the one they had to work out with the lawyers in the class action suit. I personally think that had the issue not gone to court Ducati would have finally come up with a solution that we would all be happier about.
 
They were replacing tanks without MUCH hassle for the most part on almost all the effected bikes. And they didn't show any signs of stopping that practice. Now I understand they were replacing plastic tanks with the same plastic tanks, but given time I'm confident they would have worked out a solution to the problem that would have been better than the one we have now.

jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 10, 2012, 11:07:02 AM
No way to determine that...  And actually the "fix" that was developed was done by Ducati -- in Bologna. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: junior varsity on December 10, 2012, 11:09:31 AM
No way to determine that...  And actually the "fix" that was developed was done by Ducati -- in Bologna. 

+1


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 10, 2012, 12:08:46 PM
+! +! I have heard that spouted before from inside circles, IMHO some were on denial. Other OEMs reacted differently Triumph went back to metal tanks, so did MG on the V7. And finally I have not heard of their solution to the 848 streetfighter which was introduced after the Class Action remedies were finalized, since as far as I know the tank is made from the same material it stands to reason that it is only a matter of time before there is a problem with that bike. But at least with that bike you can spend the money and put on an aluminum tank, just like the new 848 CORSE EVO SE has. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Massinova on December 10, 2012, 07:02:01 PM

It's notable that Ducati is not using PA6 tanks everywhere.  Some are XLPE.



Is XLPE used on all the new bikes with plastic tanks?   Any studies/observations on how it compares to PA6?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 10, 2012, 07:12:12 PM

Is XLPE used on all the new bikes with plastic tanks?   Any studies/observations on how it compares to PA6?

Pa6 is still used in the USA.  I have seen some xlpe tanks overseas and heard the HTm is xlpe. 

You cannot paint PE tanks.   There are multiple types of PE and some will deform but i believe xlpe wont.  PE does not absorb water like nylon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Ducatamount on December 10, 2012, 07:26:12 PM
Don't mean to change the subject but living in Southern VT we are technically in a "rain forest zone" (i.e. high humidity), so would a product like Startron help ?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 10, 2012, 07:54:52 PM
Don't mean to change the subject but living in Southern VT we are technically in a "rain forest zone" (i.e. high humidity), so would a product like Startron help ?

I.e "naphtha and mineral spirits".

No.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jerryz on December 10, 2012, 11:15:54 PM
Ducati are now using 3 types of plastic PA6 , XPLE and PEX

however the problem in USA is that EPA will not allow PEX for some reason

Ducati have created a monster for themselves because many people dont trust the company any more over this issue and prospective buyers like me want assurance that the bike i am spending money on has a no deforming plastic tank ....well I know the issue well and my next puechase will be from a manufacturer using steel tanks , i am looking now at Kawasaki Z800 or a Triumph or MotoGuzzi .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 11, 2012, 05:02:23 AM
Ducati are now using 3 types of plastic PA6 , XPLE and PEX

XLPE and PEX are the same thing. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jerryz on December 11, 2012, 05:11:27 AM
XLPE and PEX are the same thing. 


OK but its was and maybe still is banned from use in USA by EPA ,i read a paper in a trade journal and  it  was mentioned in the court case ,
Ducati are useing PEX in Asia and europe and although some PA6 tank bikes got sold there too and have issues


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on December 11, 2012, 08:49:09 AM
PEX isnt allowed in the US because it violates CARB laws due to the fact that it can outgas a little.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on December 11, 2012, 03:30:27 PM
PEX/XLPE actually allows fuel vapor to travel through it. This is why it can't be painted and why it's not CARB legal.

As I wrote above, we are going to fluorinate our MTT tanks upon production. This gives the outer layer of molecules a behaviour more like that of teflon with regard to vapor permissivity. From the research I have done, fluorination improves surface adhesion & will allow for the painting of PEX/XLPE.

- Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 11, 2012, 06:27:18 PM
My second tank is twisting.  And, despite numerous emails to another alloy tank manufacturer I haven't received any replies.

This clusterbleep is making my bike unrideable.  I had wanted to be proactive in replacing the tank with alloy, so I am holding out hop for Iz's tank and heroic effort.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jerryz on December 11, 2012, 08:06:34 PM
So in reality as most bike manufacturers do ,,,STEEL is still king for fuel tanls ,of the majors  99% of bikes made use it  only Ducati and KTM seem to persist with plastics .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 11, 2012, 08:40:12 PM
So in reality as most bike manufacturers do ,,,STEEL is still king for fuel tanls ,of the majors  99% of bikes made use it  only Ducati and KTM seem to persist with plastics .
Just out of curiosity, is the underseat tank on a BMW F-Series not plastic? BTW, my 851 had an nice alloy tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 12, 2012, 02:19:28 AM
So in reality as most bike manufacturers do ,,,STEEL is still king for fuel tanls ,of the majors  99% of bikes made use it  only Ducati and KTM seem to persist with plastics .

There are models from many brands using plastic and affected by varying degrees including Aprilla, BMW, KTM, Moto Guzzi, MV Augusta, and yes even Harley Davidson. I give Ducati credit for new designs that enable them to hide the plastic fuel cell, such as the new monsters, pretty clever. But that does not give them a free ride on the remedy they offered for afffected bikes. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 12, 2012, 01:12:52 PM
I don't agree that hiding the problem is clever at all.  For the price of today's bikes they should have a solution IMO


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 12, 2012, 01:25:23 PM
Yeah you could be right. But along with those designs we also got huge increase between service intervals, reduced weight, DTC, ABS. And the price isn't bad. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on December 12, 2012, 02:08:49 PM
You guys keep forgetting about the costs with steel and alloy. There's a reason people use plastic: it's like 1/10th of the cost to get running. I'll be flatly stunned if anyone mass produces metal tanks for Ducatis. There is zero financial motive. The Big Four Japanese manufacturers sell enough numbers (like 100x Ducati) so the huge costs are amortized among more bikes. The metal tank Ducati made for the original Monster is probably why they kept using it until 2006 (last found on the S4R desmoquattro).

I'm quite amazed that over time, Ducatis have either kept the price the same or reduced. The original owner of the 1992 900SS I owned paid $10,500 for it. In 1991. What did a GSXR go for back then? $6k? The 888s were a bit over $20k.

If the fluorination proves to be the magic bullet for plastic tanks, we'll make another monster tank that mimics the factory tank's looks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 12, 2012, 02:26:27 PM
Agree and by not spending money on redoing the tanks in metal they added other features, bike was lighter, and the price was kept reasonable. In fact a M1100 EVO is a very competitive bike in the market. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 12, 2012, 04:45:21 PM
In fact a M1100 EVO is a very competitive bike in the market. - Gene

It's ugly too. 

 :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 12, 2012, 06:04:44 PM
My Duc and my Harley have metal tanks and it's gonna stay that way.  :P They may cost more but I'm not buying the argument of incrementally shooting the price of the bike skyward.  Just look at the electronics and how much more time and effort went into that to be added. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 12, 2012, 06:15:47 PM
Hey I'm lucky enough to have the only Harley with a plastic tank. I got rid of the S2R but the XR1200 is not going anywhere. I just replaced the S2R1000, mostly my track bike, with another metal tank Duc, a nice find Supersport to be exact. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 13, 2012, 10:21:31 AM
Hey I'm lucky enough to have the only Harley with a plastic tank. I got rid of the S2R but the XR1200 is not going anywhere. I just replaced the S2R1000, mostly my track bike, with another metal tank Duc, a nice find Supersport to be exact. - Gene

The V-Rod has a plastic tank too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2012, 10:23:28 AM
The V-Wad has a plastic tank too.

fixed


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2012, 10:29:36 AM
PEX/XLPE actually allows fuel vapor to travel through it. This is why it can't be painted and why it's not CARB legal.

As I wrote above, we are going to fluorinate our MTT tanks upon production. This gives the outer layer of molecules a behaviour more like that of teflon with regard to vapor permissivity. From the research I have done, fluorination improves surface adhesion & will allow for the painting of PEX/XLPE.

- Chris

That's interesting.  EPA SHED testing shows XLPE gas tanks permeate at a lower rate than HDPE tanks.

EPA testing on Marine tanks made of HDPE and XLPE tanks showed XLPE rated lower permeation than all HDPE tanks. 

Plenty of HDPE tanks around on cars and boats. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 13, 2012, 11:06:08 AM
fixed

 [laugh]

I remember when those first came out, I was at an HD dealer and I asked the salesman, "What do you think of it?"

He said, "It's the answer to a question no one asked."


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 13, 2012, 11:57:14 AM
The V-Rod has a plastic tank too.

Doesn't really count it is a hidden fuel cell under the seat, I don't know what material they are made of but I'm not aware of a problem with them. In fact there are aftermarket larger fuel cells. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 13, 2012, 11:59:53 AM
Doesn't really count it is a hidden fuel cell under the seat, I don't know what material they are made of but I'm not aware of a problem with them. In fact there are aftermarket larger fuel cells. - Gene

I don't know what your counting, but it is still a plastic tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 13, 2012, 12:19:43 PM
Yep I should have qualified my post. I'm lucky enough to have the only Harley model with a plastic tank problem. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2012, 02:05:34 PM
I don't know what your counting, but it is still a plastic tank.

 Under the seat means hidden from view.  If it expands who cares Unless it leaks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on December 13, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
I wasn't referencing HDPE. So if PEX is bad then HDPE must be worse unless it is fluorinated. Some research by P. A. B. Carstens, J. A. De Beer, and J. P. Le Roux; New Surface-Fluorinated Products, discusses the benefits of surface fluorination of PE containers for insecticides, PE fuel tanks, and also for HDPE pipes. With examples of the reduction of permissivity by factors between 100x and 1000x.


That's interesting.  EPA SHED testing shows XLPE gas tanks permeate at a lower rate than HDPE tanks. EPA testing on Marine tanks made of HDPE and XLPE tanks showed XLPE rated lower permeation than all HDPE tanks. Plenty of HDPE tanks around on cars and boats.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 13, 2012, 02:29:47 PM
Under the seat means hidden from view.  If it expands who cares Unless it leaks.

Well, sorta.  I haven't heard of them leaking.  I haven't even heard of them expanding.  But you can certainly see them.  They are not hidden.  You can't see the whole thing, but you can certainly see much of it.  Granted, it's not a major cosmetic component like a nicely paint gas tank in the traditional location.

I wonder if any of them leak.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 13, 2012, 03:12:02 PM
I've been scouring euro/etc ebay sites for Ducati gas tanks.  I was looking for tanks made of XLPE/PEX -like a picture earlier in this thread (Reply #1228 page 82).  The listings that have a decent shot of the underside all have the nylon triangle/arrows molded into them.  I'm guessing Ducati used a fair amount of PA6 in Europe and elsewhere.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 13, 2012, 03:27:34 PM
I wasn't referencing HDPE. So if PEX is bad then HDPE must be worse unless it is fluorinated. Some research by P. A. B. Carstens, J. A. De Beer, and J. P. Le Roux; New Surface-Fluorinated Products, discusses the benefits of surface fluorination of PE containers for insecticides, PE fuel tanks, and also for HDPE pipes. With examples of the reduction of permissivity by factors between 100x and 1000x.



 I can't post it right now but there is a published ePA review of marine fuel tanks subjected to the shed test. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on December 13, 2012, 03:47:59 PM
Well, sorta.  I haven't heard of them leaking.  I haven't even heard of them expanding.  But you can certainly see them.  They are not hidden.  You can't see the whole thing, but you can certainly see much of it.  Granted, it's not a major cosmetic component like a nicely paint gas tank in the traditional location.

I wonder if any of them leak.

They've been swelling, dont know about leaking though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egslC4_p_Oc


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 13, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
If anyone made a raw black/ charcoal plastic tank (similar to pic), I'd skin both knees buying two. One for the bike, another for a spare. Given they weren't prone to deformation.

Could be done easily, even if the raw plastic was evened out by cob or soda blasting for a matte finish.
(http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachments/sport-classic/63306d1266835227-new-bike-hp2_megamoto1.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 13, 2012, 05:10:10 PM
They've been swelling, dont know about leaking though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egslC4_p_Oc

Yes the XR1200 tank problems are known he was referring to the VROD tanks under the seat.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on December 13, 2012, 09:32:09 PM
Here's the thing. When I got into doing tanks, PEX was supposed to be the most dimensionally stable plastic there is for fuel tanks. BUT you can't paint it because fuel vapor seeps out through it. Any OEM, production tank that is painted is going to be nylon. Nylon which my plastics people said was dump to use for fuel tanks because it absorbs gasoline molecules whole. (they didn't say anything about water)

Well early on, SOME of our gas tanks would grow a little. Turns out we learn that plant wasn't cross-linking the pastic properly. Since we changed to the new folks who are very conscientious about their work, we haven't had enough problems to get a more reliable estimate about how the stable the plastic is. (so we assume that it's keeping shape well)

Now, I learn through research about fluorination. It could be that the tanks Cycleworks makes and puts through all these processes can be THE solution. Paintable and dimensionally stable.

HillbillyPolack: Yes, you can make our tank look like that with sandblasting / etc. Oh, I'm picking up the mold tomorrow...

:) Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Massinova on December 16, 2012, 11:21:13 AM
I'm surprised that Ducati is still pushing PA6 tanks on the US market.

I personally wouldn't buy another Ducati with this type of tank and somewhat confused why they are still pushing this dung heap of a fiasco on it's customers.

The cost and time to install a replacement for a deformed PA6 tank under warranty, metal seems dirt cheap in the long run.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 04, 2013, 10:30:31 AM
Hello, I have taken my Duc with expanded tank to the dealer, who claims to have photographed the tank and sent the pics and info to Ducati for approval. It's pretty well expanded and I hope to attain a new tank. The dealer acknowledges that they have been thru this before and have recieved and installed a few new tanks for other customers. However in my case it has been nearly a month and they say that there is still no response from ducati. I am getting the run around. Is there someone I can contact myself in order to try and force some action? Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on April 04, 2013, 12:12:17 PM
There is a Customer Service Link on the DNA website, you'll needto know your code - PITA, which sjould be on a Red Card they sent you after your purchased the bike. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 04, 2013, 12:48:21 PM
Thanks for the reply. I don't recall getting a red card with a code or anything from them in the mail, but I'll look into it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on April 04, 2013, 01:54:43 PM
The red card comes with the bike, not in the mail. It should have come with your keys.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on April 04, 2013, 02:17:34 PM
The red card comes with the bike, not in the mail. It should have come with your keys.

Currently there is an owner's card with your name on it which has nothing to do with the code card which comes with the bike. At one point I was able to print off a copy of that card online using my VIN #. Might be worth a try.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 09, 2013, 04:57:23 PM
Ok. I found the red card and called Ducati USA who told me they knew nothing about my bike. Said the dealer must not have submitted or submitted incorrectly. As expected they both blame the other for the delay. But the real problem is they claim that I do not need a replacement tank, but instead a different mounting kit. This seems completely unacceptable to me, as this thank has expanded back into the seat, also forward to where you cannot unlatch and lift it, and to the sides to where the rubbers are not seated on the frame but half off. Also the bar at full lock contacts the tank on the left hand side. Can something be done, or do we just have to accept whatever they say? Thanks in advance. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on April 09, 2013, 05:08:25 PM
Did the dealer say that they would install the rubber mounts? In various cases they went that direction first. The dealer does not make that call. They send Ducati photos and based on those they decide if they should replace it. I would consider taking the tank to another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Skybarney on April 09, 2013, 05:12:01 PM
Does anyone know if Ducati fixed this problem with the newer models or can us folks with 2012/2013 bikes expect trouble as well?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 09, 2013, 05:14:15 PM
Thanks for the reply. Ducati says that the dealer never requested a replacement tank because the dealer decided it does not need replacement. I suspect that is untrue and Ducati drags their feet waiting for the deadline to come. I don't see how a new mounting kit is going to help the front to back issues.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on April 09, 2013, 06:34:34 PM
Thanks for the reply. Ducati says that the dealer never requested a replacement tank because the dealer decided it does not need replacement. I suspect that is untrue and Ducati drags their feet waiting for the deadline to come. I don't see how a new mounting kit is going to help the front to back issues.

The new mounting kit comes with a new tank latch bracket that moves the tank further back towards the seat, then the resolve is a new, shorter seat. At least that's what was told to me when I had my tank replaced.

Supposedly, the tanks have an absorption threshold. Meaning they are supposed to only expand a certain amount and the new mounting hardware is supposed to account for that threshold. [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on April 09, 2013, 09:00:17 PM
Does anyone know if Ducati fixed this problem with the newer models or can us folks with 2012/2013 bikes expect trouble as well?
The newer models have a fuel cell behind the tank covers, what you see is not a tank but a cover. The fuel cell underneath that cover can expnd, distort etc... and it is designed not to affect the cover. That is the engineering and the theory and as far as I know no one with a new monster has reported a problem with this new design. -  Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Skybarney on April 09, 2013, 10:28:07 PM
Thanks Twolane!   [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 10, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
The new mounting kit comes with a new tank latch bracket that moves the tank further back towards the seat, then the resolve is a new, shorter seat. At least that's what was told to me when I had my tank replaced.
Great. And what if I want the Corbin that I've been planning on? And what if I obtain a proper size tank later, will they have taken my current seat? I wonder if there is some sort of dispute process?
Quote from: bearded Duc

Supposedly, the tanks have an absorption threshold. Meaning they are supposed to only expand a certain amount and the new mounting hardware is supposed to account for that threshold. [roll]
Yes of course. I take that to mean that by the time it expands into the short seat, the 18 month window will have passed. I'd take it to another dealer but I really feel that Duc is blaming the dealer when they are making the determination. Fwiw, this is a mint bike with 875 miles on it. Anyway thanks for the info.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on April 10, 2013, 02:01:42 PM
Great. And what if I want the Corbin that I've been planning on? And what if I obtain a proper size tank later, will they have taken my current seat? I wonder if there is some sort of dispute process? Yes of course. I take that to mean that by the time it expands into the short seat, the 18 month window will have passed. I'd take it to another dealer but I really feel that Duc is blaming the dealer when they are making the determination. Fwiw, this is a mint bike with 875 miles on it. Anyway thanks for the info.

I'd push the dealer to make the claim, then have the tank coated. The coating will cost you around $200 but, IMHO, that's nothing for piece of mind. There's no guarantee the coating will work 100% but mine is going strong for about a year now and others have reported much longer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 10, 2013, 02:11:02 PM
I'd push the dealer to make the claim, then have the tank coated. The coating will cost you around $200 but, IMHO, that's nothing for piece of mind. There's no guarantee the coating will work 100% but mine is going strong for about a year now and others have reported much longer.
Yeah, that's what I'll do. I'm sure the dealer makes as much money or more for the tank swap so I don't see why they would hesitate. In the event that I do get a new tank, I will certainly consider coating. Thanks for the advice.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on April 10, 2013, 02:37:35 PM
The dealer will eventually get reimbursed by Ducati. DNA might take a little while to pay them back so smaller dealers have been known not to want to do the leg work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on April 10, 2013, 02:44:18 PM
Great. And what if I want the Corbin that I've been planning on? And what if I obtain a proper size tank later, will they have taken my current seat? I wonder if there is some sort of dispute process? Yes of course. I take that to mean that by the time it expands into the short seat, the 18 month window will have passed. I'd take it to another dealer but I really feel that Duc is blaming the dealer when they are making the determination. Fwiw, this is a mint bike with 875 miles on it. Anyway thanks for the info.
The process is spelled out in the class action.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 11, 2013, 03:10:31 PM
The process is spelled out in the class action.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0)
I have read and reread that thread. Actually it's the update #3 info in the second post of that thread which lead me to believe I would be getting a new tank -
UPDATE #3 10-Aug-2010 What is known so far:

"1.  Ducati is replacing every tank that comes in with any significant deformation.  The main things to look for are a) spreading on the frame mounts (one rubber bumper on each bottom side) b) ripples in the surface or c) pressing against the keyswitch"

Mine has spread frame mounts and is pressing on the ignition and the seat but they still refuse replacement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on April 11, 2013, 03:18:28 PM
I have read and reread that thread. Actually it's the update #3 info in the second post of that thread which lead me to believe I would be getting a new tank -
UPDATE #3 10-Aug-2010 What is known so far:

"1.  Ducati is replacing every tank that comes in with any significant deformation.  The main things to look for are a) spreading on the frame mounts (one rubber bumper on each bottom side) b) ripples in the surface or c) pressing against the keyswitch"

Mine has spread frame mounts and is pressing on the ignition and the seat but they still refuse replacement.

That was before the judge ruled on the class action. Ducati was replacing tanks pretty much no questions asked.

Ducati is now only doing what was settled upon in the class action, and I can't blame them.

They were acting in good faith until then and IMO their good faith was much better for owners than the settlement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 11, 2013, 03:30:53 PM
I see. That is unfortunate for me, but I see what you are saying.
It does seem odd however to have a settlement which leaves the defendants soley in charge of determining outcomes with no dispute process.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on April 11, 2013, 03:41:21 PM
I see. That is unfortunate for me, but I see what you are saying.
It does seem odd however to have a settlement which leaves the defendants soley in charge of determining outcomes with no dispute process.
The only winner in that action was the attorney for the plaintiffs.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on April 11, 2013, 04:01:25 PM
The only winner in that action was the attorney for the plaintiffs.

This


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 30, 2013, 06:27:24 AM
Dealer has had the bike for six weeks, and all Ducati has allowed is new rubber mounts under the tank. You cannot even lift the tank on this bike without unbolting and removing the plastic piece around the ignition switch. Ducati claims it's the dealers call. Dealer says it's Ducati's call. Pathetic.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 30, 2013, 06:36:36 AM
Dealer has had the bike for six weeks, and all Ducati has allowed is new rubber mounts under the tank. You cannot even lift the tank on this bike without unbolting and removing the plastic piece around the ignition switch. Ducati claims it's the dealers call. Dealer says it's Ducati's call. Pathetic.

You need to call Ducati directly and send them photos and/or take it to another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on April 30, 2013, 07:37:25 AM
I have been in contact with Ducati directly, and despite being polite and respectful got nothing but a brick wall.
The next nearest dealer is quite aways from here, so I am hesitant, especially because I suspect Ducati is making the determination. It may come to that however. I'm the original owner, and I was considering adding a MS1200s, but this experience makes that seem like a poor idea.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on April 30, 2013, 07:38:41 AM
It sounds more like the dealer is not doing their homework correctly and either not giving Ducati the measurements or photos properly.

I've not heard of a tank that is that bad not being replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on April 30, 2013, 08:37:59 AM
Problem is this process is not easy between the dealer and Ducati, as it is with many things with Ducati these days. The dealer has to contribute his time/efforts, no compensation, and the labor associated with the fix may not cover the actual work that is involved. It turns out to be a bad deal for all involved, excpet for the ethanol lobby and the EPA. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on April 30, 2013, 09:21:32 AM
It turns out to be a bad deal for all involved, excpet for the ethanol lobby and the EPA. - Gene
You're SO right. I've seen other things like this off-and-on in my 20 years in the moto industry. I call this an "everyone loses" situation... so all parties have to be flexible. IMHO, Ducati North America will do you right, keep a good attitude and don't quit trying. I've personally known a lot of people at DNA and every one of them cares. (cared?)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Ak1nza on April 30, 2013, 11:36:41 AM
@wengr

My dealer told me that in some instances Ducati rejected a tank replacement and approved the tank mounting and bracket kit.  Resubmission of the claim after a few weeks after showing no improvement with the tank mounting and bracket kit lead to successful replacements.

So perhaps it's just a process here you have to follow.  YMMV but my dealer was pretty confident that all tanks with issues would get replaced as well FYI.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dry Martini on May 01, 2013, 05:15:02 AM
@wengr

My dealer told me that in some instances Ducati rejected a tank replacement and approved the tank mounting and bracket kit.  Resubmission of the claim after a few weeks after showing no improvement with the tank mounting and bracket kit lead to successful replacements.

So perhaps it's just a process here you have to follow.  YMMV but my dealer was pretty confident that all tanks with issues would get replaced as well FYI.

Yeah, no! The closet Ducati dealer is a 200 mile round trip for me. I am not going to accept a bracket kit that will not work and then go back for a tank that is probably not any better than the one I have. So with that in mind, I will just coat my tank with Caswells sealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 01, 2013, 05:49:28 AM
Yeah, no! The closet Ducati dealer is a 200 mile round trip for me. I am not going to accept a bracket kit that will not work and then go back for a tank that is probably not any better than the one I have. So with that in mind, I will just coat my tank with Caswells sealer.

There is a process they are following.  The bracket is done first to see if the tank's expansion is below a certain amount.  If the tank expands beyond that, they will replace the tank, with a slightly smaller one. 

If you are coating a tank with caswell's, then you need to prep it and that means you need to take it off the bike, rinse and clean it, and let it sit for about a month in a dry place with moving air.  gasoline/ethanol/water has to have a chance to get out of the inner surface.  if your tank has been in use for a long time, i would say don't coat it as you will never get the absorbed gas/alcohol out and over time the coating will de-laminate as that stuff works its way out.

coat only a brand new tank or a tank that has seen little use.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wengr on May 01, 2013, 06:30:55 AM
>>>There is a process they are following.  The bracket is done first to see if the tank's expansion is below a certain amount.  If the tank expands beyond that, they will replace the tank, with a slightly smaller one>>>

Should this be taken to mean that the replacement tanks are not new? I did not know that. What's the cosmetic condition of these replacements?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on May 01, 2013, 06:44:54 AM
>>>There is a process they are following.  The bracket is done first to see if the tank's expansion is below a certain amount.  If the tank expands beyond that, they will replace the tank, with a slightly smaller one>>>

Should this be taken to mean that the replacement tanks are not new? I did not know that. What's the cosmetic condition of these replacements?

No it means the new tanks are the same material.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: 1stduc on May 02, 2013, 06:21:33 AM
The newer models have a fuel cell behind the tank covers, what you see is not a tank but a cover. The fuel cell underneath that cover can expnd, distort etc... and it is designed not to affect the cover. That is the engineering and the theory and as far as I know no one with a new monster has reported a problem with this new design. -  Gene

Thanks I was going to ask the same question.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jsanford on May 21, 2013, 07:16:14 PM
i'm getting the replacement tank coated before it's even installed on the bike.  The dealer set up a partnership with a local outfit.

I want my Monster to be a running heirloom to leave to my neice some day, and with E15 on the horizon this seems like the only way to go. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: scduc on May 23, 2013, 02:27:31 PM
Just had the new hardware installed. Guess they didn't think the tank was too bad. So now we have 2 months left and we are on our own.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on May 23, 2013, 02:59:48 PM
Just had the new hardware installed. Guess they didn't think the tank was too bad. So now we have 2 months left and we are on our own.
It's a pretty reasonable approach... if giving you another tank just like yours doesn't work, new hardware and (if necessary) a shorter seat.

~shrug~


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: scduc on May 25, 2013, 06:59:41 AM
The only grip I have with that, is the tank does have some distortion, not terible but some. now, with the time limit for replacements, I really doubt I will be able to get a new tank. which means I either will have to buy a new one from Ducati or hopefully IZ will have his on the market when I no longer am able to deal with the imperfections. Or the other option is to trade it in for the 848SF.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on May 25, 2013, 10:02:50 AM
Well, there is the option of the tank we make (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=62928.0). But it looks different... and can't be painted. If enough folks wanted, we could do a blow molded Monster-shaped tank, but the mold isn't cheap. And I'd need a successful crowd-funding project (http://invested.in/P3820/multistrada-fuel-tank) to be motivated to make a product that competes with one I already have.

 :-\ Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: LowThudd on May 25, 2013, 11:01:56 AM
How is it going with the MTS tank? I am looking at possibly getting a MTS 1000DS and the tank is an obvious concern.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on May 25, 2013, 11:28:52 AM
It's going well but the crowd funding part is a worry. Given how many people have been asking us for a Multi tank for years, I thought the easy part would be the crowd funding. :P If they get it, I'll make the blowmolding happen. If my Ticona rep sells his plastic to the plant I visited in Ohio, the tanks will be EPA/CARB legal and are paintable. This is how I would like all of our future tanks to be.

My rep at Ticona is also working with my rotational molding company to try and get it working in rotomolding. If that works, I'll be super happy, as rotomold tooling is like 1/3 the price of blowmolds. :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SpikeC on May 25, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
I would buy a track style tank for an M1100!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jsanford on June 04, 2013, 05:01:48 PM
i'm getting the replacement tank coated before it's even installed on the bike.  The dealer set up a partnership with a local outfit.

I want my Monster to be a running heirloom to leave to my neice some day, and with E15 on the horizon this seems like the only way to go. 

Picked up the bike today, and it has the wrong badging on the tank.  [thumbsdown] Original was white, the new one has silver lettering.  Called the shop and apparently this is what Ducati is sending for all shiny black replacement tanks, and the solution is to have the clearcoating removed and white letter decals applied by a local painter.

I'm going to ponder it for a day or two.  The truth is, if I were to go to that bother I'd probably have the traditional serif'ed Ducati with the '90s-era "Monster."  Particularly as it sounds like it would be on my dime.  [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Wedge on June 08, 2013, 05:18:48 PM
What happens when our replacement tanks deform???  I love my S2R-1000 but this is crazy.  Will Star Tron or any other ethanol treatment prevent tank damage?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on June 08, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
What happens when our replacement tanks deform???  I love my S2R-1000 but this is crazy.  Will Star Tron or any other ethanol treatment prevent tank damage?

The best route to take is to have the new tank coated with caswell, or something like that, before you mount it. However, if the replacement take has already had fuel in it I don't believe coating will work (someone else can check me on that).

Otherwise, I believe the result of the class action is that, after the specified time period, you're on your own. You can buy direct from DNA via your dealer or there are a couple of after-market options.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on June 08, 2013, 05:30:52 PM
You can coat it even after fueling it. It's just a matter of letting it dry out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Wedge on June 09, 2013, 04:30:15 AM
Thanks!  I'm going to get mine coated ASAP!  I'm really surprised there aren't more after-market options that look like the original.  Does anyone know if Star Tron ethenol treatment will prevent the damage or al least decelerate its effects???? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2013, 07:02:45 AM
You can coat it even after fueling it. It's just a matter of letting it dry out.

yes BUT..

You need to do more than let it dry out.  The gasoline has to be completely removed.. see my instructions in the other thread for how to thoroughly rinse it of fuel.

Thanks!  I'm going to get mine coated ASAP!  I'm really surprised there aren't more after-market options that look like the original.  Does anyone know if Star Tron ethenol treatment will prevent the damage or al least decelerate its effects???? 

No.  Most fuel treatments do not prevent separation or water ingestion, they just give the fuel an additive which makes it burn ok.  It will still wick water and your tank will still absorb it.

Most additives are a mixture of ethanol, mineral spirits, kerosene and a host of other -enes that do nothing but raise the octane a little.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on June 09, 2013, 12:23:57 PM
You can coat it even after fueling it. It's just a matter of letting it dry out.

Thanks [thumbsup]

Wasn't completely positive.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Wedge on June 10, 2013, 04:13:16 AM
The CA Cycleworks tank would solve the problem forever, is affordable but doesn't look like the original, take a look:

(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx194/pawedge/CAcycleworks.jpg)

I contacted them about making a replacement tank that looked like the OM tank and here's what they said:


Thanks for writing! The tank we have for your bike now, the MTT43, will probably be the only aftermarket tank available for the early Monsters for under $1000.

If you get 60 to 100 money in hand for deposit people, I can make a copy of the stock tank that won't change shape and would be emissions legal. Ducati owners haven't cared that much about new tanks since the HM69 project, where 60 people stepped up and made that tank happen. A mold is ~$100k and without at least $100k of tanks sold up front, it is fiscally stupid for anyone to mass produce them...

So...it looks like we need 60-100 guys with "Cash-in-Hand" and that's just for the S2R tanks....but the solution would be permanent!  What do you guys think? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Wedge on June 10, 2013, 10:07:15 AM
OK...I'm an idiot!  just figured out who Chris is and how involved he is in all this... is there a crowd-funding project for the S2R???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on June 10, 2013, 10:24:33 AM
OK...I'm an idiot!  just figured out who Chris is and how involved he is in all this... is there a crowd-funding project for the S2R???

No, we've got one for the MTS tanks, so I wouldn't pick this up until that tank's mold was being made (which actually will be "soon").

If some graphics designers guys want to start working on a Kickstarter page, that'd be cool. They rejected my inquiry for the HM45 mid-size tank project but I think it's because I didn't put enough production into making a slick project page.  :-\ [roll] We're using invested.in for the MTS tank, but I think the exposure would be better on kickstarter.

Thanks,
Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SpikeC on June 10, 2013, 01:34:28 PM
 Here is an annoying question- how much work would it take ( if at all possible) to put a s*R tank onto a M1100?  Anything is possible with enough determination I would think.....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on June 10, 2013, 02:50:01 PM
Here is an annoying question- how much work would it take ( if at all possible) to put a s*R tank onto a M1100?  Anything is possible with enough determination I would think.....

Without knowing all of the technical specifics, I would say a lot of work. The "new" monsters have a bladder style tank that partially rides under the seat correct? And I would imagine all of the hook-ups are completely different.

Also, why would you want to do that? With the new monster skins you're covering up any possible bloating blemishes.

I don't have a new monster, so I really don't know why I chimed in. I'm gonna go sit in a corner.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on June 10, 2013, 03:49:01 PM
@bearded: CannedIce here has a 696 and your thoughts are pretty correct.

The EFI stuff is mostly the same, but the locations of everything else is different. Like the airbox, seat, etc etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SpikeC on June 10, 2013, 04:10:58 PM
 Why I would want to do that is because I love the tank that those guys are making! To me it looks like a tank should look, as well as having a bit more capacity.
 Tha air box could be deep sixed for pods, wires can be moved around, as well as hoses, and the seat interface can be delt with in various was.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: The Bearded Duc on June 10, 2013, 10:03:31 PM
Why I would want to do that is because I love the tank that those guys are making! To me it looks like a tank should look, as well as having a bit more capacity.
 Tha air box could be deep sixed for pods, wires can be moved around, as well as hoses, and the seat interface can be delt with in various was.

If by "those guys" you mean CA-Cycleworks and Chris Kelly then that's my misunderstanding. He's a great guy and he's working miracles for the tank expansion issues and his tanks really are beautiful but the tanks they are making are not just for the S*R series bikes, so when you asked about an S*R tank I automatically assumed a stock tank from an S*R series bike.

Now I know that isn't what you meant so, again, I'm gonna go sit in a corner. [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on June 11, 2013, 09:07:34 AM
If by "those guys" you mean CA-Cycleworks and Chris Kelly then that's my misunderstanding. He's a great guy and he's working miracles for the tank expansion issues and his tanks really are beautiful but the tanks they are making are not just for the S*R series bikes, so when you asked about an S*R tank I automatically assumed a stock tank from an S*R series bike.

Actually, the MTT43 tank is a direct, bolt on replacement for S2R Monsters. I've had them on my 2005 S2R800 for years.

Happy times, the MTS tank project got funded, so we're going to work with new technology and plastic for that tank. It will be a blow molded tank and the plastic is designed specifically to work with the latest fuels and pass the most stringent of vapor emissions laws. Once we get through the Multi tank design, we can come back and revisit the thought of making a roundy blobular tank for legacy Monsters.

:) Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 25, 2013, 11:39:55 PM
I'm getting ready to coat a brand new tank with Caswells, and I have read a great deal of helpful "how to" info here, but I was wondering, what keeps the Caswells from clogging the vent tube inside the gas tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 26, 2013, 01:29:31 AM
I'm getting ready to coat a brand new tank with Caswells, and I have read a great deal of helpful "how to" info here, but I was wondering, what keeps the Caswells from clogging the vent tube inside the gas tank?
The tubes are closed in the tank.

They run from the cap area to the tank bottom.

There's no way the sealer can clog them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 26, 2013, 07:05:37 AM
Makes sense. Thanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on June 26, 2013, 05:50:28 PM
Has there been ANY movement on Izz's aluminum tank?  I was ready to pony up for a Beater tank and had been contacting them to that end.

For whatever reason, Simon at Beater is no longer reachable.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 26, 2013, 08:31:45 PM
Unfortunately, this is taking a long time.  There are a lot of issues getting the bottom side of the tank right. 

The goal is to have a tank that can be used on multiple bikes with the original round EFI pump.  That goal has presented fitment issues.

The top is done.  I thought I would have something by now, alas. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: krista on June 26, 2013, 08:41:11 PM
Unfortunately, this is taking a long time.  There are a lot of issues getting the bottom side of the tank right. 

The goal is to have a tank that can be used on multiple bikes with the original round EFI pump.  That goal has presented fitment issues.

BTDT... Lots of fun. BTW, the 900 engine is the tallest of all the air cooled engines. CAD was able to confirm the impressions hot cooling fins made on my tank in one of its previous iterations. :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dry Martini on June 27, 2013, 11:37:34 AM
So what is the best way to seal up the pump hole on the bottom, prior to coating with Caswell sealer?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 27, 2013, 12:53:27 PM
So what is the best way to seal up the pump hole on the bottom, prior to coating with Caswell sealer?

Pick up a $4 piece of lexan at home depot.  They sell small pieces of it about 10x10.

The hole is just a bit smaller than a CD.  So you can trace the opening on the lexan with it. 

Cut the sides of the lexan down to about 1" outside the circle you traced so you can lay it on the hole and then trace the outline of the outer surface of the hole.

Cut the lexan to fit so that it lies flat on the hole with your CD traced circle in the center.  Then mark off the locations of the screw holes and drill them.  The screws are 6mm.  That's just a tad smaller than a 1/4" drill bit.  Drill all the holes and make sure they line up well.

Now that you've got a piece that will fit and can be attached, put it over the hole and put a couple of the screws in to hold it in place.  Trace a line around the outside of the filler hole just inside the screws.  Now remove the lexan and flip it over and put a THIN bead of RTV silicone adhesive along that line.  You need this because the lexan cover will not seal.

If you want to make your life easy, pick up a #9 stopper for the filler hole.  You can also use a hole saw and put a 2" hole in the middle of the lexan and use a #11 stopper there.  The stopper in the filler hole will make it so you don't have to worry about stuff coming out while you're rotating the tank.  There is an overflow hole in the filler which you need to plug as well.  I used a piece of rubber glove shoved in with the stopper.

For the mixture, pick up some disposable SQUARE tupperware, like that Glad stuff and some wood stirrers from home depot (paint dept gives them out for free).

Read my comments on how to rinse the tank, and how to reduce the caswells.  Xylene only.  Acetone will eat the tank (not aggressively, but it does attack nylon).  Xylene is 100% compatible with the tank material and the caswell's reduces well with it.  I use no more than 1.5 oz for the whole mixture of caswells. 

Dump the contents of the LARGE can first into your mixing bowl.  I put the xylene in next because it keeps the small can from fixing the mixture better.  Use the stirrer for about 2-3 full minutes.  Scrape the sides and bottom often to keep it mixed.

Have a roll of paper towels handy
I usually use about 4-5 pairs of disposable nitrile gloves.  I change them often to prevent spreading the caswell's.
Use painter's tape to cover the outside of the tank.  You don't need plastic wrap or anything.  The caswell's will wipe off easily if you use a paper towel quickly. 
The xylene is the pregnant dog you ahve to worry about with the paint -- it will literally start stripping the paint in about 10 seconds. 

I rinse the inside of my tanks with about an ounce of xylene before pouring in the mixture, but I don't dump it out, I put about 10 paper towels in a wad into the filler hole (no lexan cover yet) to absorb it and then remove it carefully.


The filler hole is actually HDPE and the caswells will not adhere to it well (FYI).  I always wipe the outside surface very clean so it seals properly when you out the plate back on.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on June 27, 2013, 01:05:09 PM
So what is the best way to seal up the pump hole on the bottom, prior to coating with Caswell sealer?
+1 I coated a tank for an s2r 1k last night and I drilled a piece of plexiglass to match the fuel pump holes, but I put a standard rubber garbage disposal cover (fit almost perfectly) down before bolting down the plexiglass so that it would seal. Used a sink stopper for the gas filler hole.

I had no issues with leakage of Caswells during the process.

By the way, thanks to all who contributed by providing me with these ideas.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Dry Martini on June 27, 2013, 02:12:43 PM
Thanks to both of you for the info.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J-Speed Inc. on July 29, 2013, 07:10:59 AM
Other than the Caswell coating, has anyone had any luck with anything else?  I've heard mixed reviews on the long-term effectiveness of the coating, was wondering if anyone used anything like StarTron ethanol treatment (popular in the boating community) to keep the ethanol from making the nylon in the tank expand?

The tank on my 07 S2R 1000 has now expanded to the point where it can't be unlatched and is pressing against the key switch.  Seems like heat makes the tank expand faster as when the bike was sitting inside for a week, the tank didn't change.  When I took the bike to work and it sat outside in the 90+ degree FL heat for 8 hours, it expanded.  I will be going through Ducati to get a replacement tank under warranty, but would like to know if there's anything I can do to keep the new tank from expanding.  We can get Rec 90 (non-ethanol fuel) here, but it's tough to find.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on July 29, 2013, 08:38:00 AM
Tiz would be the ultimate authority, but last I heard the coating has been the most effective resolution. Multi owners, the group that have been dealing with the issue the longest in the Ducati community, have shown cases of the coating, if applied correctly, have lasted years. Startron, or any other item that claims to fix the issue by chemically changing the fuel, does not work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 29, 2013, 08:54:35 AM
Other than the Caswell coating, has anyone had any luck with anything else?  I've heard mixed reviews on the long-term effectiveness of the coating, was wondering if anyone used anything like StarTron ethanol treatment (popular in the boating community) to keep the ethanol from making the nylon in the tank expand?

Where have you heard mixed reviews on the coating?

I've got a 2+ year old coating in my first tank and it's going strong. I used a fibre-optic camera to inspect it and it's holding up very well.  There might have been issues for people who did not prep the tank correctly, and the factory "test" used 100% ethanol and who knows what kind of tank or if any prep was done.

None of the additives will make any difference.  The primary issue is water.  The additives just make the water burn in the engine, they do not "remove" it.

See my other posts with info about the ingredients of those additives.  Most are kersoene, naphtha, mineral spirits, even ethanol etc.  They just increase the octane of the gasoline so the water burns more smoothly.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J-Speed Inc. on July 29, 2013, 10:33:43 AM
Not looking to start a war or anything, but from what I've read on other Ducati forums, it has been a mixed bag of results using the Caswell coating.  You're right, this might be due to improper surface prep, but I would bet it's pretty difficult to rough up every square inch of a crazy shaped plastic gas tank.  In the past I've used a handful of drywall screws on metal tanks, but nothing ever got into the seams very well.  My research so far showed the coating having issues at the seams.

Has Ducati changed the tank plastic formulation to get rid of this problem?  Is Ducati just going to give me the same tank which ethanol will eat again?  My bike is ridden regularly and the tank will be emptied after 5 days or so, but the odds are not in my favor if the warranty replacement tank has nylon like the old on does.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on July 29, 2013, 11:43:32 AM
The tank material is the same.

Your best bet is to coat the new tank with the Caswell coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 29, 2013, 11:57:36 AM
Not looking to start a war or anything, but from what I've read on other Ducati forums, it has been a mixed bag of results using the Caswell coating.  You're right, this might be due to improper surface prep, but I would bet it's pretty difficult to rough up every square inch of a crazy shaped plastic gas tank.  In the past I've used a handful of drywall screws on metal tanks, but nothing ever got into the seams very well.  My research so far showed the coating having issues at the seams.

Has Ducati changed the tank plastic formulation to get rid of this problem?  Is Ducati just going to give me the same tank which ethanol will eat again?  My bike is ridden regularly and the tank will be emptied after 5 days or so, but the odds are not in my favor if the warranty replacement tank has nylon like the old on does.

The issue is prep.  There is no need to scuff the tank, but that does help adhesion. The #1 issue is that the rinsing was not done sufficiently.  Gasoline prevents adhesion.  Using a proper rinse with something to cut the gas, drying the tank, and then rinsing again with a nylon-compatible reducer (xylene is the best choice) you will get sufficient coverage.

I've used both of Caswell's coatings and they are the same except for color.  The color one is better because you can see where it is running.  Reducing it is absolutely necessary to get coverage everywhere.

The replacement tanks are the exact same stuff.  Some replacement tanks were older than the tanks they replaced.  My 2005 S2r tank had a 1/2005 manufacture date.  The replacement tank has an 8/2004 manufacture date.





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J-Speed Inc. on July 29, 2013, 12:07:44 PM
So it sounds like the best idea is to get the replacement tank from Ducati and coat it with the Caswell coating cut with Xylene.  Only other alternative is only run ethanol-free gas, however, that would get annoying quickly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on July 29, 2013, 12:14:26 PM
Even ethanol free fuel is not completely free of moisture.

Just coat the tank.

Reduce the coating enough so it flows freely and easily all over the tank and you won't have trouble.

If you can coat the tank before any fuel is put in it so much the better.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 29, 2013, 12:17:06 PM
The ideal case is to get a virgin tank and prep it as I've described.  You still have to use a solvent to cut out any leftovers from the rotomoulding.

Used tanks can be coated just fine, IMHO, it just requires patience.  Rinse with solvent, dry for 2-3 months, rinse again, dry with hot air, cut with xylene, coat. 

The surface of the PA6 can absorb a tiny amount of gas  and/or ethanol.  That prevents adhesion, but drying it and rinse with solvent (like Marine Clean) works to get most of it out.  Scuffing an older tank helps.  use a grill scraper and cut off all the "pimples"  that you can reach with an exacto.  The coating will fill these pockets and help adhesion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SpikeC on July 29, 2013, 01:17:00 PM
 It is clear to me (at least) that problems with the coating are due to improper preparation, which is then blamed on the product. Reading reports of problems on the Internet should always be taken with a grain of salt as you do not know the history of the people or about their competence.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 29, 2013, 02:56:45 PM
It is clear to me (at least) that problems with the coating are due to improper preparation, which is then blamed on the product. Reading reports of problems on the Internet should always be taken with a grain of salt as you do not know the history of the people or about their competence.

Well, to be sure, the original directions for the Caswell's are not for nylon tanks.  Putting nails in your tank to rough it up is a bad idea and even thought I've told them about my method with xylene, they haven't put it in their instructions.

Xylene is compatible with nylon and it is a good reducer for epoxy-based adhesives.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J-Speed Inc. on July 30, 2013, 06:28:05 AM
So I just got off the phone with my local Ducati dealer, Atlantic Motorcycles in Pompano Beach, FL, who informed me that Ducati has become much stricter on the tank swap process.  The guy I spoke to said something about only applying to the original owner?  According to the lawyer in the Ducati law suit, none of that is mentioned.  Anyone have any idea what's going on here?  The guy I spoke to said to bring the bike to the shop for paperwork, but he didn't feel confident Ducati will honor the swap.

Law suit info: http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati/ (http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on July 30, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
So I just got off the phone with my local Ducati dealer, Atlantic Motorcycles in Pompano Beach, FL, who informed me that Ducati has become much stricter on the tank swap process.  The guy I spoke to said something about only applying to the original owner?  According to the lawyer in the Ducati law suit, none of that is mentioned.  Anyone have any idea what's going on here?  The guy I spoke to said to bring the bike to the shop for paperwork, but he didn't feel confident Ducati will honor the swap.

Law suit info: http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati/ (http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati/)

I just took mine in last week to get pictures taken and a tank ordered. My dealer kind of hinted at the same thing. They asked if I knew how many previous owners there were and they would try their best to get a replacement. When I told them I was the original owner he had a sense of relief and said I should get approved no problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J-Speed Inc. on July 30, 2013, 08:19:53 AM
Sounds to me like Ducati is trying to cheap out and use pathetic excuses to avoid replacing the tank.  Why does it matter how many owners there were?  The tank is still made from the wrong plastic.

I'm going to follow your lead and tell them I'm the original owner, see how far that gets me, though I think it shouldn't matter nor is it written anywhere in the lawsuit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on July 30, 2013, 08:26:29 AM
So I just got off the phone with my local Ducati dealer, Atlantic Motorcycles in Pompano Beach, FL, who informed me that Ducati has become much stricter on the tank swap process.  The guy I spoke to said something about only applying to the original owner?  According to the lawyer in the Ducati law suit, none of that is mentioned.  Anyone have any idea what's going on here?  The guy I spoke to said to bring the bike to the shop for paperwork, but he didn't feel confident Ducati will honor the swap.

Law suit info: http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati/ (http://www.girardgibbs.com/ducati/)


The Dealer is incorrect.  Ducati has said they will honor the extended warranty within the period to subsequent owners if they accept the terms of the settlement.

Tank swaps are subject to the criteria laid out in the settlement and determined by model type.

Only bikes with visible tanks get swaps (old style tank, pre 2009 models, i.e. 695 or S2R NOT the 696 or 1100 models).

Tank much show visible cosmetic issues, i.e. expansion over a certain amount or cracking in the paint due to expansion.

The fact is, MOST tanks will shrink to the original size when dried out and the paint is not affected.  I have coated tanks which were expanded and have had no problems.

If there is visible cracking in the paint, leaking or the amount of expansion is over a certain amount, they will replace it.

If there is "only" significant expansion and no cracking, they will first remount the tank with new hardware to accommodate the expansion.



Unless there is cracking or leaking, I would not bother with a new tank.  Tank it off, rinse it out with Marine Clean or similar, then let it sit in a dry place for about a month.  Come back and then measure it.  The best place to measure is the width between the bolt holes of the rubber bumpers on the bottom.  You can compare to a metal EFI tank. They should be within about 5mm (I've see differences up to about 5-7mm between METAL tanks, so I assume this is sufficient margin for a comparison to plastic tanks).

Here is my basic procedure:

You need:

About 4 oz of xylene
a roll of paper towels
a piece of rug or clean rubber mat to rest the tank on upside down.
square tupperware, 4x4x8" (8" tall to mix and pour caswells)
a glass measuring cup (for the xylene)
tiny detail brush, steel
#9 rubber stopper
#10 rubber stopper
home depot plexiglass piece, about 10x10
6mm washers
rtv silicone
exacto knife
wood stirrers (popsicle sticks or tongue depressors best)
small hair blow dryer
some kind of water based solvent like marine clean.  I think the purple stuff is ok too, you will dilute it about 10:1 with water.
about 2 months of time to let the tank shrink and about 3-5 hours to do the coating properly.
1 box of nitrile gloves.
silicone basting brush (99c store has these by me...)

Once the tank has shrunk back to the original size, use a #9 rubber stopper to plug the INSIDE of the filler neck.  Yes, the INSIDE.  I can get my arm just far enough in and use my other hand on the outside to guide the plug in from the INSIDE and jam it in.  You can do the same from the outside if you like, but you'll get the coating inside the filler next some.  PLUS if you do the plug from the inside, it gives you a visible gauge of how much coating you spread once the coating sets.

Make a plexiglass cover for the fuel pump hole. You can use a DVD or CD to approximate the bolt pattern diameter.  A CD is bigger than the hole, but smaller than the size you need so measure carefully. When you've cut it so it fits and the holes line up, use some RTV silicone and put a THIN bead in a line just inside the bolt holes on your plexiglass to seal it.  Use washers to spread the pressure.  The thicker the plexiglass the better so it doesn't warp when you screw it on. 

I put a hole in the plexiglass to pour stuff in and used another #10 stopper so I can plug it for agitating the tank.  Use a 1 7/8" hole saw to cut a hole.  You can use a  1 3/4" but you'll get more of the plug in with the larger one.

Now rinse it again with diluted marine clean, dry it well.  If you've plugged it right, nothing will leak.  This is a test of your plugs as the marine clean won't eat paint.  Next, remove the plugs and use a small hair dryer on low heat setting.  Dry the plugs too.  The tank will be noticeably dry and warm.  Unless you've got a huge arm, you can get your hand inside a good bit of the tank with a coarse metal brush or a "detail" brush.  I used a steel one.  Just rub it everywhere you can.  This is labor intensive.  Let the tank cool.

There is one hole in the filler neck that stuff can leak from even with the plug inside.  You can use a 00 plug on that or just keep the paper towel in place with your hand.  I've done both (we have a lot of stoppers around here).

Now find all the "pimples" in the inside surface of the tank that you can reach.  They look like this:

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/adfe6eb2.jpg)

You can either cut the surface off or just score it several times using an Exacto knife.  The point is to open the pimple up so coating goes inside it.  Don't dig.  The tank is about 3/8" thick and the spots with bubbles are thinner.  getting rid of these will make the coating adhere better and will seal the tank better.  No random air pockets for condensation.


Now you've got a tank that you've rinsed, dried, shrunk, plugged, rinsed again, dried, cut and scuffed.. Still with me?

Put the cover and stoppers back in.  You've verified they don't leak, right? 

Put on your first pair of gloves.

Pour about 2-3 oz of Xylene into your glass measuring cup.  Use the cup to measure it, about 10 feet away from the tank.  Why?  Xylene will eat your paint like a MOFO.  Extreme caution in handling it.

With about 20 paper towels handy, carefully pour it in the hole in the plexiglass.  Plug that hole hard..  Paper towel in the top filler?  Now rotate the tank.  Keep it up for a while.  You are cutting the surface, diluting any last vestiges of gas and ethanol.

Check your gloves.  Are they dry?  Xylene eats paint.

Now put the tank on its top on your mat and remove the filler cover.  Stuff about 10-20 paper towels into the filler hole to absorb the xylene.  You will NEVER safely pour it out.  Don't bother trying.  Trust me.  Just use the paper towels to absorb the xylene and remove them carefully.

Note:  You've probably noticed I have not said "Cover your tank in plastic or tape."  Why?  Because if you spill xylene on that, it will not matter one bit.  Xylene will penetrate tape and will run along your plastic and find an opening and then eat your paint.  It is better to have none and be able to wipe it away FAST than have to tear off all the tape while it sits on the paint.

Now you've carefully removed the xylene paper towels.  Put them far away.  They are flammable and you'll get very high if you don't.

Gloves ok??

Now you can mix the caswell's.  Use a large SQUARE tupperware.  I use those disposable kind, they are about 4x4x8".  Use wood stir sticks.  Put in about 1 Oz of xylene to reduce and stir for about 10 minutes.  No really, 10 minutes. Scrape the sides and bottom well and stir.

Put on a new pair of gloves.  Just do it. 

Dry the plexiglass and put it back on.  Now you can pour in about half of the mixed caswells.  With the xylene, it is MUCH thinner, so pour slowly. 

With about half the caswell's in the tank, and your plugs confirmed in place.  Turn on some music, get a comfy place to sit for about an hour and start turning the tank.  For the first 5 minutes or so, just keep turning it in your hands.  Every direction.  Keep an eye on the top filler and make sure your plug + paper towel is holding.  This is where the red caswell's is helpful.  Caswell's WILL wipe off with a dry paper towel when you get it quickly.  Just keep turning it about every 5 minutes now.

After about 30 minutes, open the bottom and move the tank around so the caswell's runs on the top and front of the tank.  the point is to get the xylene to start evaporating and get some fresh air in side.  agitate the tank with the bottom stopper out for about 10 minutes. 

now pour in almost all the rest of the caswells.  Leave about 2-3 ounces in your tupperware and put the top on it.  if you have any xylene left, put about 3-4 drops into it before you cover it.  Put this aside.  Are your glvoes clean?

now agitate the tank with the bottom open just move the stuff around.  by now, you should see it clinging everywhere.  put the stopper back in and continue agitating every 5 minutes or so.  Turn the tank and then lay it on the bottom, top sides, front and back.  The point is to get every angle covered and let it sit for a few minutes and then move on to the next angle.  once the caswells gets noticeably thicker, then you need to speed up the rate of agitation.

the "problem" area is the spot right in front of the filler hole.  there is a "shelf" there which is the bottom of the tank.  the "Critical" areas are the lowest points of the tank, i.e. the front and rear corners and the sides.  This is were the condensations sinks and where the expansion starts.

you're going to be turning the tank at least another hour at this point.  have a beer.  open the bottom stopper about every 3-4th time you turn the tank to allow in fresh air and vent the xylene.  windows open?  gloves clean?

>hour passes<

Now the mixture should be crazy thick.  Keep turning it until you don't see a "tide" of it rushing down when the tank is upside down.  You'll know what I mean.

Once the "tide" is moving like honey, you're ready for the last step...

Now take out that small amount you set aside and the silicone basting brush.  Give it a stir with one of your sticks.  Keep stirring until it starts to get thick.  It may take a bit of time, but you want it like honey.

You're going to stand the tank on its front end so the mixture goes to the front.  Remove the plexiglass cover.  Carefully.  There will be drips, so use paper towels to catch.

Peer inside and you'll see the shelf and the hoses.  Carefully use the basting brush to "paint" these with the leftover caswells.  If you've let it get thick enough, it will cling just fine.  You want to get as much of it on the shelf and the hoses as possible.  It will spread by itself.  Also, if you had any of those pimples near the opening, just gob them with the brush to make sure you push caswells into them. 

Now that the plexiglass is off, you can either leave it off and carefully turn the tank OR you can clean it off and put it back on.  If you do the latter, just wipe it with paper towels, it doesn't need to be perfect.  Leave the stopper out and turn the tank.

Once you can't see it moving anymore, you will turn the tank for another few hours, but only once every 30 minutes or so.  You're basically done.  Once you've done this 4-5 times, set the tank on its bottom.  Any drips out the bottom hole will go on your mat and who cares. 

The coating takes about 3-4 hours to set and I wait about 3-4 days before putting in gas.  Once it is dry to the touch (next day), remove the stopper from the top.  It might have some stickiness around the contact point, so use your gloves and remove it carefully.  You will also need to scrape a little from the outside lip of the filler hole.  Use a plastic painter's knife.

Put your hair drying back into the tank on NO heat.  keep the air circulating to speed up cure. 

Keep the tupperware around.  This will give you an idea how much the tank is set up.  I've found the leftover mix in the tupperware still sticky on the plastic side up to TWO weeks later.  Thats' why I prefer to wait after it's set before putting gas in.

This is how I do my tanks.  My first tank was not done with this much OCD, but it is still holding strong and I did not use xylene to cut and prep the tank or reduce the mix (i used acetone).  Acetone is ok, but Xylene is more compatible with nylon.

Hope this is useful.





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on August 08, 2013, 05:21:49 AM
I can attest:  More than a year and a half in a Caswell coated replacement tank and it has remained the same shape with no visible expansion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on August 14, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
Two weeks down and so far no response from Ducati on my tank. I would say I have hit the whole August vacation thing but the guy they are waiting to hear back from is a rep here in the states.  Very annoying to say the least. I was hoping to get this replaced and sell the bike before the end of summer. :\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Frisco on August 15, 2013, 06:01:24 AM
I just got rid of mine altogether - not worth the hassle (3 tanks and probably would have needed a 4th) - never had a bike before that EVER needed such a fix to make something right that the manufacturer didn't correct with a PERMENANT fix or that I had to go thru such an involved proceedure to fix it myself - just my opinion - for an expensive machine this should never have happened.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on August 15, 2013, 08:47:42 AM
I just got rid of mine altogether - not worth the hassle (3 tanks and probably would have needed a 4th) - never had a bike before that EVER needed such a fix to make something right that the manufacturer didn't correct with a PERMENANT fix or that I had to go thru such an involved proceedure to fix it myself - just my opinion - for an expensive machine this should never have happened.

This was an opinion of mine very early in the plastic tank settlement.  I have a suspicion that those who have dealt with this issue (with no permanent solution) will sell their bikes or not consider a Ducati again.

Nothing permanent (alloy or steel tanks) was offered even through the Ducati Performance catalog.  And when you think about it, Ducati could have made money from THAT accessory despite the debacle which this became.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 15, 2013, 05:56:45 PM
This was an opinion of mine very early in the plastic tank settlement.  I have a suspicion that those who have dealt with this issue (with no permanent solution) will sell their bikes or not consider a Ducati again.

Nothing permanent (alloy or steel tanks) was offered even through the Ducati Performance catalog.  And when you think about it, Ducati could have made money from THAT accessory despite the debacle which this became.

In a civil law suit, the "justice" is served when the damaged party is made "whole" again. In other words, what will it take to get Duc riders / owners back to owning a tank that functions properly. And yes, Duc owners could have been made "whole" if Ducati would have replaced the faulty tank with a properly functioning tank. I went ahead and coated my replacement tank, but at my expense, so I have yet to be made "whole."

This does not seem to be a horrible injustice, and I haven't divorced Ducati; however, if I am ever treated like this again by Ducati, it will be time to file.

The judge must have been Italian.  ??? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Wedge on August 24, 2013, 05:35:06 AM
My second tank is already expanding after 10 months.  I had to adjust the steering limits so my starter switch doesn't hit the tank.  I'm going to do the Caswell treatment this winter and hope for the best.  I love my S2R-1000 and probably will never sell it but this is a real joke.  I honestly wouldn't recommend Ducati to a friend considering how this issue was "resolved".  I almost bought a Tuono last week but then discovered they use the same plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on August 24, 2013, 06:19:20 AM
We are stuck with plastic tanks, take it or leave it, and given the safety and emissions laws, nylon is the best thing going. 

The manufacturers are now aware of this, so I expect they'll figure out some workarounds such as hiding the tank as on the 696 or possibly coating it.

I am not sore at Ducati for this, they were responsible, but the cost of replacing the tank with a different material would have put them out of business.  I understand the "solution" they implemented (which by the way is a done deal now, the extended warranty has expired so coating is your only option).

Just to be clear, they extended the warranty on the tank for 18 months after the settlement, which provided for modifications for tanks or replacement in rare instances.

Coating the tank is your only option.  If you do it right, it will outlast you.







Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: yukio on August 25, 2013, 10:30:08 PM
I have read this entire thread over the course of the last two days (thank you Ducatiz for all your hard work on this) after putting an offer in on a low mileage 07 S4RS. I have owned a few Ducatis in the past and have never had any major issues. I have lusted over the S4rs since it came out and have taken a few years off from riding and am now ready to get back to riding and am in the position to buy one and build it up. My last bike was a 999 and I love the engine and the styling of the older Montser is literally the reason i got into motorcycles. To say I am disappointed both in the potential money pit this bike may become along with how Ducati dealt with the situation is an understatement.

While I do not plan on riding the bike daily, it will be used every week. It sounded like expansion issue was even worse on bikes that simply sat for months on end. if the bike is used fairly often and I use one of the fuel additives mentioned in this thread would I be slowing the warping process or am I grasping at straws? I don't expect Ducati to give me a new tank at this point but want to buy my dream bike. Between a rock and a hard place.

Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated as i may be in the position to buy the bike in a day or so. thanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: amantaban on August 26, 2013, 06:39:48 PM
I just looked at an 06 Monster 620 that is for sale and the tank pads are not sitting on the frame correctly and it is right up against the ignition. Is this lawsuit still relevant? If I buy it, can I still get it fixed for free? Does coating cost a lot?

Thanks guys. I am a serious Monster noob and need an answer quick before this thing sells. HELP!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on August 26, 2013, 07:32:10 PM
Although this is not the thread to answer your question I'll say that if it's a plastic tank and you want a new one it will set you back around $1600 for a new one.  Flea bay has tons for a fraction of the cost or modify a metal tank from an earlier 2v


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: theoneillusion on August 26, 2013, 07:36:15 PM
I just looked at an 06 Monster 620 that is for sale and the tank pads are not sitting on the frame correctly and it is right up against the ignition. Is this lawsuit still relevant? If I buy it, can I still get it fixed for free? Does coating cost a lot?

Thanks guys. I am a serious Monster noob and need an answer quick before this thing sells. HELP!

We are stuck with plastic tanks, take it or leave it, and given the safety and emissions laws, nylon is the best thing going. 

The manufacturers are now aware of this, so I expect they'll figure out some workarounds such as hiding the tank as on the 696 or possibly coating it.

I am not sore at Ducati for this, they were responsible, but the cost of replacing the tank with a different material would have put them out of business.  I understand the "solution" they implemented (which by the way is a done deal now, the extended warranty has expired so coating is your only option).

Just to be clear, they extended the warranty on the tank for 18 months after the settlement, which provided for modifications for tanks or replacement in rare instances.

Coating the tank is your only option.  If you do it right, it will outlast you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 26, 2013, 08:42:12 PM
(http://ca-cycleworks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/365x265/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/t/mtt43_001.jpg)

This is the material our replacement tanks should have been made of- with a lifetime guarantee to boot!

My Ducati tank is coated, but if it gets bloated, I'll buy one of these. :)

Can be purchased here....       http://ca-cycleworks.com/ (http://ca-cycleworks.com/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hbliam on August 26, 2013, 09:18:36 PM
Not paintable. Not the same shape as stock. Not made for all models.

But a great track tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on August 27, 2013, 06:10:15 AM
Not paintable. Not the same shape as stock. Not made for all models.

But a great track tank.

Holds fuel without getting pregnant.   :D

Guaranteed for life.  ;D

Functional.  ;)

 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SpikeC on August 27, 2013, 10:46:21 AM
 I just love the look of the CA track tank! I wish that I has a compatible bike so that I could get one! Unfortunately, I had to buy a different bike to get a tank that I liked.....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on October 01, 2013, 09:13:17 PM
I am curious if anyone else is waiting on a tank. The request for mine got sent in at the end of July and I am still waiting. A week or so ago I asked me dealer what is going on and they said they are still waiting.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mikefoxtrot on October 02, 2013, 02:15:04 PM
I brought my bike in on 12 Aug or somewhere around there and just got it back last weekend.  The dealer had a helluva time getting the new tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on October 09, 2013, 04:21:14 AM
I brought my bike in on 12 Aug or somewhere around there and just got it back last weekend.  The dealer had a helluva time getting the new tank.

This situation will only get worse.  Hate to say I told you so, two or three years ago.

Best solution is either 1) sell the bike if the tank issue bothers you, 2) go the Caswell route once you receive a fresh tank, or 3) get a replacement tank like the one Chris (ca-cycleworks) sells.  Oh, or 3a) wish for the unicorn, hoping an alloy tank will be made in our lifetimes.

I'm a naive optimist, hoping to get an alloy tank.  I like the bike, and would like to see a permanent, flattering fix to the tank issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on October 09, 2013, 08:56:43 AM
I'm a naive optimist, hoping to get an alloy tank.  I like the bike, and would like to see a permanent, flattering fix to the tank issue.

The class action suit pretty much guaranteed that it would not be fixed. Why would Ducati go through the process of getting a new tank certified for models that they no longer produce? If you're considering resale value, I suggest coating your tank with Caswell.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mikefoxtrot on October 09, 2013, 10:19:38 AM
This situation will only get worse.  Hate to say I told you so, two or three years ago.

Best solution is either 1) sell the bike if the tank issue bothers you, 2) go the Caswell route once you receive a fresh tank, or 3) get a replacement tank like the one Chris (ca-cycleworks) sells.  Oh, or 3a) wish for the unicorn, hoping an alloy tank will be made in our lifetimes.

I'm a naive optimist, hoping to get an alloy tank.  I like the bike, and would like to see a permanent, flattering fix to the tank issue.

I'm definitely going the Caswell's route.  I just need the time to do it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on October 09, 2013, 12:56:16 PM
I have a new tank waiting at my dealer. Just need to gather the funds for the caswell coating before I get it installed...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on October 10, 2013, 06:49:53 AM
I think I might have just joined the club, with the 1098  [roll]
This is a 2008 1098, and the tank "looks" fine (no visible deformations at all), but I had a hell of a time in making it fit again, after removing it for the DMV emissions sticker inspection.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: HotIce on October 10, 2013, 03:59:12 PM
OTOH, the Ducati Performance aluminum tank is sweet!  [drool]


Title: Re: Ducati project 1201
Post by: Jim H on November 05, 2013, 03:54:32 AM
Hello,

The following is a post dedicated to nylon fuel tanks, I've been working on this for just over a year. Due to the size of the post, please refer to the original source:

http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22369 (http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22369)

Many Thanks

Jim


Title: Re: Ducati project 1201
Post by: ducatiz on November 05, 2013, 01:05:18 PM
Hello,

The following is a post dedicated to nylon fuel tanks, I've been working on this for just over a year. Due to the size of the post, please refer to the original source:

http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22369 (http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22369)

Many Thanks

Jim

Excellent info.

Regarding the Caswell coating, I have it on my bike and it's going on 3 years now, no issues.  There are others around who had it applied at least a year or two before I did.

The main issue is prep.

I've even come to the conclusion from my research that scoring the interior of the tank is a good idea because it gives the coating a place to "hang".  Everything I've read shows this to be a good idea.  I don't know how to do that safely though. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jwoconnor on November 10, 2013, 10:28:20 AM
Anyone tried a couple hand-fulls of sheet-metal screws in the tank then spin it in the drier for an hour (as a prep)?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 10, 2013, 10:46:06 AM
Anyone tried a couple hand-fulls of sheet-metal screws in the tank then spin it in the drier for an hour (as a prep)?
I heard about people having issues with the screws getting stuck in cracks & crevices.

I coated a brand new tank that had never had any fuel in it, and I didn't do anything except wipe out the dust. No issues so far.

I think Caswells recommends the screws for tanks that have been exposed to fuel, but they recommend shaking the tank. The dryer?? My dryer would ruin itself and / or the tank in about one minute.  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jwoconnor on November 10, 2013, 06:19:25 PM
The dryer?? My dryer would ruin itself and / or the tank in about one minute.  ???

You use thick foam around the tank to hold it in place with the drier on "fluff" (no heat).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on November 15, 2013, 12:15:59 PM
I finally got a response from taking my bike in July to get the tank replaced. Ducati said NO! at least that is what the dealer is saying. They said since the bike is over 6 years old it is not covered. Correct me if I am wrong but from the settlement I understood it has I had 18 months to try to get my tank. I was under that deadline and they still denied me. help!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on November 15, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
Did the dealer give you a jar of vaseline to go with the response? IMHO the dealer is not being very responsive I'd contact Ducati Customer Service directly. You can also use the winter months to let the tank dry out, coat it, put it on the bike and hope it holds. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jwoconnor on November 15, 2013, 02:50:45 PM
You can also use the winter months to let the tank dry out, coat it, put it on the bike and hope it holds. - Gene

That is the route I am taking. Screw Ducati, and their prick dealers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DLep on November 16, 2013, 07:56:33 PM
I'm new here and still on the fence about whether to buy a Monster.

Does this issue affect the current Monster range?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on November 16, 2013, 09:59:22 PM
I'm new here and still on the fence about whether to buy a Monster.

Does this issue affect the current Monster range?
You probably get European market tanks in Australia (PEX) rather than the PA-6 tanks which are mandated in the U.S. due to the U.S. EPA shed tests.

The new bikes also have skins over the tank which allow room for expansion. Can't recall reading any complaints so far but I might have missed one. The last time I visited my dealer, I asked whether he'd ever replaced any and he had replaced one tank due to the failure of a well nut cast into the tank but none from swelling.

How much E-10 fuel do you have down there? It's water attracted to the ethanol which causes polyethylene tanks to swell.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: koko64 on November 17, 2013, 03:11:05 AM
I'm new here and still on the fence about whether to buy a Monster.

Does this issue affect the current Monster range?

I would ask at Ozmonsters local board. C is probably right as we usually got EU models, but I'm not sure nowdays. Maybe Ungeheuer, Brad B or someonemight chime in.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ungeheuer on November 17, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
I can answer for Australia.  It's a non-issue. 

Our tanks (M659/696/796/1100) are Euro-spec, made from XLPE (aka PEX)... not the ethanol susceptible PA-6 Nylon tanks supplied to USA.

And even if we had nylon tanks, in Australia ethanol-laced fuel is easy to avoid.

(Although Peter Stevens in Ringwood VIC currently have a grey market used M696 for sale which was USA sourced...  :o... So check for the ugly AUS mandated VIN plate riveted to the RHS frame tube - not a sticker).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DLep on November 17, 2013, 09:18:59 PM
Thanks ungeheuer, that's one concern addressed.

I now have to consider the small tank problem (most of my rides are between 200 and 300 kms), the heat problem and whether I could tour on a 696/796 once or twice a year. But I'll find more appropriate theads for those concerns.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on November 19, 2013, 10:38:57 AM
Brand new replacement tank has been coated, getting installed this afternoon. I'll post up later with the details.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 19, 2013, 09:24:43 PM
Thanks ungeheuer, that's one concern addressed.

I now have to consider the small tank problem (most of my rides are between 200 and 300 kms), the heat problem and whether I could tour on a 696/796 once or twice a year. But I'll find more appropriate theads for those concerns.
To address the heat issue, I have an S2R and I live in an area where it gets incredibly hot like Australia. One remedy for the heat would be to add another oil cooler. Moto Wheels has one for somewhere in the neighborhood of $500.00. I've ridden when it was 115 degrees Fahrenheit, but never for stretches longer than 20 miles. However, the engine temp. does not go up a great deal until I start hitting the stop lights. I've had it up to 251 degrees for a short time, but it goes down once I get rolling.


My recommendation- get the oil cooler or consider purchasing a water cooled machine if you plan on longer rides in the heat, and I've heard the Aussie sun can be ferocious.
   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on November 19, 2013, 09:47:23 PM
My recommendation- get the oil cooler or consider purchasing a water cooled machine if you plan on longer rides in the heat, and I've heard the Aussie sun can be ferocious.
His issue has little to do with engine heat. It's the flapper valve under the seat which gets hot. Cooling the engine would do little if anything to address this. Swapping out the flapper valve for a 696 mid pipe might help, but ungeheuer or Raux might be able to confirm. I don't notice it much under ~ 85 F / 30 C ambient temp. Above 90 F / 33 C, you feel it. The kind of pants or leathers you wear will also have an impact. (I don't ride in jeans. ;))


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ungeheuer on November 19, 2013, 10:59:22 PM
Swapping out the flapper valve for a 696 mid pipe might help, but ungeheuer or Raux might be able to confirm.
I got nothing to say about that here.  Here's about plastic tanks  ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on November 20, 2013, 08:08:53 AM
OK, so the tank swap went well. Interestingly though, the tank wouldn't close properly with my PCIII installed in the same place it has been for 5 years now. Not a major issue since there's additional room now due to the Shorai.

So the tank looks good. The caswell coating is a noticable layer of clear coating on the inside of the tank.
The dealership dropped a little fuel in it and I headed to the gas station. They also installed a new fuel filter in it while I was there, the original filter had about 18.5K miles on it.

Everything seemed fine until I was on my way back to work this morning. My fuel light came on at 123 miles. I usually get about 135 before it comes on. I'll fill up again today and see if I notice a difference again. Could it be that there was just some air in the tank since it's new?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 20, 2013, 09:44:35 AM
OK, so the tank swap went well. Interestingly though, the tank wouldn't close properly with my PCIII installed in the same place it has been for 5 years now. Not a major issue since there's additional room now due to the Shorai.

So the tank looks good. The caswell coating is a noticable layer of clear coating on the inside of the tank.
The dealership dropped a little fuel in it and I headed to the gas station. They also installed a new fuel filter in it while I was there, the original filter had about 18.5K miles on it.

Everything seemed fine until I was on my way back to work this morning. My fuel light came on at 123 miles. I usually get about 135 before it comes on. I'll fill up again today and see if I notice a difference again. Could it be that there was just some air in the tank since it's new?
The volume of a complete kit is 1.5 quarts...

do the math. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2013, 09:49:29 AM
The volume of a complete kit is 1.5 quarts...

do the math. ;)

Of which is about 70% VOCs


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 20, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
Of which is about 70% VOCs
I never read the label with regards to solids content, but that seem really high for that type of epoxy. :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on November 20, 2013, 03:42:15 PM
I figured the amount of tank swell would have been about the same volume. I certainly didn't expect to lose capacity...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
I never read the label with regards to solids content, but that seem really high for that type of epoxy. :-\

Actually I was exaggerating and now that I think about it, its probably pretty low.  The epoxy they use is available for industrial coatings in a non liquid form which has a 0% voc.  I assume they add reducer but I dont know how much.

In the tank that I did testing with the coating cured at about 1mm thick in most places.  Thicker in tbe corners.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on November 20, 2013, 08:41:02 PM
Well, it seems I have lost a pretty decent amount of available volume. I filled up as much as I could today after the fuel light being on for 10 miles. Normally I would put in just over 3 gallons with that distance. This time, 2.85 :-(
Not happy about the loss of capacity. I was already pushing close to my daily commute limit. I dont want to have to get gas twice a day...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on November 20, 2013, 08:52:30 PM
Well, it seems I have lost a pretty decent amount of available volume. I filled up as much as I could today after the fuel light being on for 10 miles. Normally I would put in just over 3 gallons with that distance. This time, 2.85 :-(
Not happy about the loss of capacity. I was already pushing close to my daily commute limit. I dont want to have to get gas twice a day...
I noticed the same phenomenon with my recently coated tank; I ran completely out of fuel last Saturday, and I was only able to squeeze in about 3.2 gallons. My fuel light quit working so I go by mileage. Dam!  [bang] I was sure I had enough fuel to go 10 more miles. Luckily I was only a mile from home and my wife was able to deliver some fuel to me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2013, 06:47:52 AM
The volume of a complete kit is 1.5 quarts...

do the math. ;)

It's about a quart, really.  The large can is just over 2/3 full and the small can is full.  After mixing, you lose some unless it is reduced very thin.  I usually add about an oz of xylene which gets most of it, but I still have about a 4x4x0.5 inch left over. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 21, 2013, 07:36:55 AM
It's about a quart, really.  The large can is just over 2/3 full and the small can is full.  After mixing, you lose some unless it is reduced very thin.  I usually add about an oz of xylene which gets most of it, but I still have about a 4x4x0.5 inch left over. 
My point was the material will reduce the volume of the tank.

To be conservative figure .8 qts for a complete kit.

That translates to .2 gallons. If you estimate 45 mpg that would account for a reduction of about 10 miles/tank, which is what Chris experienced.

Simple multiplication. ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2013, 07:41:17 AM
Yeah, I know.  It's unfortunate that the coating is necessary but that's what we're left with if one has a plastic tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on November 21, 2013, 08:37:19 AM
Yeah, I understand that completely, but this now makes my daily commute an exercise in restraint so I can have enough fule to make it to work and back without filling up more than once.
FYI, I'm averaging between 49-51mpg...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Jim H on December 06, 2013, 02:19:04 AM
Morning everybody,

I updated my post last night (page 185 of this thread). The post was originally intended to be universal, meaning it applies to all other bikes affected as well as the Superduke so please feel free to take a look. I have duplicated correspondence with NHTSA & VOSA for your information. Not as many links to click this time, some of the areas covered refer to epoxy coating & preparation but it also delves a little deeper. I couldn't sympathise with you guys more now that Ducati seem to be pulling a complete U-turn on choice of tank material but once everything in the post is taken into account I hope you'll see where I'm coming from.


Thank you Ducatiz for the positive response. I'm on your side and I haven't held back this time. From what I've been reading I'm sure the Ducati fraternity have received a pretty poor deal. Who know's, maybe things can still be improved.

Fingers crossed,

Thanks

Jim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: red baron on December 06, 2013, 06:57:13 AM
Nakid, we do live very close to CA Cycleworks. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on December 06, 2013, 09:14:30 AM
Nakid, we do live very close to CA Cycleworks. ;)

Are you refering to their larger tank option? As far as I know it's still not paintable...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SpikeC on December 06, 2013, 09:49:31 AM
 You could always cover one with that thin carbon fiber pattern film.......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on December 06, 2013, 09:57:40 AM
You could always cover one with that thin carbon fiber pattern film.......

Yeah, uh, no. I don't like fake CF. I like the look of my stock color (silver/black). I like the styling of the CCW tank, and of course the capacity, but I'd like to be able to paint it...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 06, 2013, 12:08:36 PM
One thing to think about. There is push back on ethanol fuel at National Level, several bills in both House and Senate to repeal the mandate. Now I don't know what chance it has, especially with so many states having some form of ethanol production. But I do think there is an opportunity to get the Premium blend set aside as an ethanol free blend, there are some states that have done this already. So I encourage you all to start pushing in your states for this to happen. I'm trying to work it in Virginia, have made contact with several legislators and may actually get some traction since they see the increase in corn prices, thus feed prices, as a threat to hog/chicken farming. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 06, 2013, 03:36:58 PM
Let's try not to get into the politics of ethanol...

OK? I'd hate to have to lock this.

Doesn't matter anyway. PA-6 will absorb water whether ethanol is present or not.

Water will always be present in fuel and containers that carry fuel.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 06, 2013, 05:34:24 PM
187 pages of problems and discussion of coating the tanks and one post suggesting the pursuit of an alternative, alebit long shot, and that is a problem? Really? There is nothing political about my post in fact I'm trying to stay in the middle of the debate, I don't care about those on either side, setting aside premium is in the middle and one that might get some traction if a few of us pursure it. geez. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: kopfjäger on December 06, 2013, 06:14:50 PM
187 pages of problems and discussion of coating the tanks and one post suggesting the pursuit of an alternative, alebit long shot, and that is a problem? Really? There is nothing political about my post in fact I'm trying to stay in the middle of the debate, I don't care about those on either side, setting aside premium is in the middle and one that might get some traction if a few of us pursure it. geez. - Gene

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA (http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 06, 2013, 06:22:49 PM
Water will always be present in fuel and containers that carry fuel.

Yes, however ethanol absorbs ambient moisture at a rate about 20x that of pure gasoline.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: red baron on December 06, 2013, 07:27:24 PM
Are you refering to their larger tank option? As far as I know it's still not paintable...

Would coating it not solve the issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: kopfjäger on December 06, 2013, 07:43:27 PM
Would coating it not solve the issue?

The outside of the tank is not paintable.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on December 06, 2013, 09:58:05 PM
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA (http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA)
Great source of information. I had to laugh when I clicked on California: 8 ethanol free stations in the entire dam state. Guess I had to coat my tank.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 07, 2013, 05:42:11 AM
187 pages of problems and discussion of coating the tanks and one post suggesting the pursuit of an alternative, alebit long shot, and that is a problem? Really? There is nothing political about my post in fact I'm trying to stay in the middle of the debate, I don't care about those on either side, setting aside premium is in the middle and one that might get some traction if a few of us pursure it. geez. - Gene
When you start discussing  the House, Senate, and legislation, it automatically become politics Gene.

Politics gets threads locked here.

Just sayin'

Yes, however ethanol absorbs ambient moisture at a rate about 20x that of pure gasoline.
True, but ambient moisture will condense inside a tank that isn't full whether there is ethanol present or not, and there is water in every fuel storage tank in the world. I agree that the ethanol exacerbates the problem, but the real issue is the nylon.

I just think that people should know that ethanol free fuel is not a guarantee their tank won't expand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on December 07, 2013, 06:06:43 AM
I just think that people should know that ethanol free fuel is not a guarantee their tank won't expand.

That is probably right but empirical evidence from those who have never used fuel with ethanol content is that their tanks are fine, same is true with the XR1200 BTW. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 07, 2013, 08:20:52 AM
That is probably right but empirical evidence from those who have never used fuel with ethanol content is that their tanks are fine, same is true with the XR1200 BTW. - Gene
[thumbsup]

BTW, if you put your thoughts together on the EPA E-15 hearing the AMA asked us to attend in Arlington and post those on another forum, please leave a link on this thread.

P.P.S. Strikes me as highly political to disallow the discussion of the evils of ethanol. Never realized the AMA was a partisan organization..., and I've been a member since Malcolm Forbes got the Garden State Parkway opened to motorcycles in 1974!  8)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on December 07, 2013, 10:20:08 AM
When you start discussing  the House, Senate, and legislation, it automatically become politics Gene.

Politics gets threads locked here.

Just sayin'
True, but ambient moisture will condense inside a tank that isn't full whether there is ethanol present or not, and there is water in every fuel storage tank in the world. I agree that the ethanol exacerbates the problem, but the real issue is the nylon.

I just think that people should know that ethanol free fuel is not a guarantee their tank won't expand.
All the more reason Ducati should have replaced the tanks with a proper functioning tank at no cost to owners.
All we have heard for the last several years was that ethanol was the culprit. If what you're saying is true, then tanks never should have been made out of nylon in the first place because the potential for expansion is there with any fuel. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 07, 2013, 12:48:06 PM
[thumbsup]

BTW, if you put your thoughts together on the EPA E-15 hearing the AMA asked us to attend in Arlington and post those on another forum, please leave a link on this thread.

P.P.S. Strikes me as highly political to disallow the discussion of the evils of ethanol. Never realized the AMA was a partisan organization..., and I've been a member since Malcolm Forbes got the Garden State Parkway opened to motorcycles in 1974!  8)
Discuss the evils of ethanol all you like as it pertains to Ducati motorcycles or small engines if you choose.

Leave the House, Senate, state laws and legislation out of it.

That part of the discussion is over.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NAKID on December 09, 2013, 12:09:15 PM
snip- But I do think there is an opportunity to get the Premium blend set aside as an ethanol free blend, there are some states that have done this already.

I don't run premium fuel in my motor. Maybe some of the 4V motors benefit from it, but I run midgrade. That's what I've found works best for my S2R1000...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 09, 2013, 12:19:44 PM
I don't run premium fuel in my motor. Maybe some of the 4V motors benefit from it, but I run midgrade. That's what I've found works best for my S2R1000...

Due to the lower volume of Premium sales, it might well have a better shot at 100% exemption. Several Excel and Royal stations west of me already offer pure gas Premium. My local oil dealer recently started selling 87 and 93 M+R/2.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: rshafferdc on March 21, 2014, 06:52:00 AM
ANY updates on this information????   I called the dealer this week to inquire about my latest tank expansion issue and they told me Ducati was DONE replacing/dealing with this issue.  Since it was just over a year since I had my tank replaced they said NO MORE!  I searched the internet for further info, but all I get is 2010/original information.

The dealer said another lawsuit was filed on this issue, so Ducati is NOT replacing any more tanks.

HELP PLEASE?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on March 21, 2014, 07:00:05 AM
Details of the settlement are here... http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on March 21, 2014, 06:44:46 PM
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA (http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA)

A more useless website there never was.  There is 1 gas station within 500 miles of me and it is 30+ miles away.  My bike holds 3.5 gallons of fuel so that means I can ride about 100 miles before the fuel light comes on.  You might as well tell me to ride around with a support team to refill my bike whenever I run low on gas.

My 2012 Monster 1100 has had the tank replaced for expansion issues and there have been 3 revisions of the tank for my bike.  Look up the part number for yourselves.  BTW-I paid $300 out of my pocket to have the replacement tank coated before it ever had our crap fuel inside it.  I remain hopeful that I won't have any problems with it.

I'm totally on board with eliminating ethanol from our fuel.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on March 21, 2014, 07:03:49 PM
And where do you live? (Rhetorical)  [roll]

Currently I buy 20 gallons at a time and refill when I get home. If you take a long ride and have to top up with crap, no biggie as long as you run low before you get home and top up with pure gas before parking.

30 miles isn't too terrible BTW. Before I convinced a local oil company to stock up on pure gas, I was traveling twice that far, so whenever I was headed that way in one of the cars..., empty race cans went into the back.

Your slime must be REALLY bad in CA as my dealer in NW VA as of last summer had only replaced ONE tank on a new Monster so far, and that was not due to swelling.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on March 24, 2014, 08:23:29 PM
And where do you live? (Rhetorical)  [roll]

Currently I buy 20 gallons at a time and refill when I get home. If you take a long ride and have to top up with crap, no biggie as long as you run low before you get home and top up with pure gas before parking.

30 miles isn't too terrible BTW. Before I convinced a local oil company to stock up on pure gas, I was traveling twice that far, so whenever I was headed that way in one of the cars..., empty race cans went into the back.

Your slime must be REALLY bad in CA as my dealer in NW VA as of last summer had only replaced ONE tank on a new Monster so far, and that was not due to swelling.

Ethanol is the devil.  Every Ducati made in the last 10 years is subject to various levels of tank issues because of this.  My dealer told me they have replaced a few tanks on the new Monsters and if you look at the parts list for my bike there have been 4 revisions already of my tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on March 24, 2014, 08:57:59 PM
Ethanol is the devil.  Every Ducati made in the last 10 years is subject to various levels of tank issues because of this.  My dealer told me they have replaced a few tanks on the new Monsters and if you look at the parts list for my bike there have been 4 revisions already of my tank.
Seems to me like Ducati is still the devil as long as they continue to manufacture fuel cells that distort and expand.  [coffee] Sadly or not, ethanol will not go away any time soon; government subsidies have paid farmers to grow more corn when it wasn't profitable.

(Not being political- just stating a fact.)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on March 25, 2014, 08:02:22 AM
Seems to me like Ducati is still the devil as long as they continue to manufacture fuel cells that distort and expand.  [coffee] Sadly or not, ethanol will not go away any time soon; government subsidies have paid farmers to grow more corn when it wasn't profitable.

(Not being political- just stating a fact.)

Ducati does not manufacture tanks. Acerbis was subcontracted to build all the plastic tanks. Also, ethanol is mixed with regular gas mostly in the US. Of course you see ethanol in other countries, but mostly as a "stand-alone". With that in mind, Ducati and other manufacturers are already moving away from plastic tanks if only because now ethanol exposure is increasing in Europe and other regions.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on March 26, 2014, 08:37:19 PM
Ducati does not manufacture tanks. Acerbis was subcontracted to build all the plastic tanks. Also, ethanol is mixed with regular gas mostly in the US. Of course you see ethanol in other countries, but mostly as a "stand-alone". With that in mind, Ducati and other manufacturers are already moving away from plastic tanks if only because now ethanol exposure is increasing in Europe and other regions.
I don't see how that makes any difference. Whether or nor Ducati manufactures the tank is irrelevant. Ducati chose to use an ineffective fuel cell and I had to deal with it, as did thousands of others; Ducati is liable for the products they put in the showroom, and tank manufacturers should be liable for the tanks they provide. Ducati also knows about ethanol, yet they failed to do right by their customers. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on March 27, 2014, 06:57:25 AM
They replaced tanks all the way up to the point when they were taken to court and they settled.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on March 27, 2014, 07:34:34 AM
There are a lot of ways to look at this.  I've run the gamut.

What we all have to remember is that a car or bike warranty is a service contract that it will perform as delivered for that span of time.  A 2-year warranty - generally - means that the bike will be fine for 2 years and then on the 731st day if it blows up, too bad.

Ducati did go well beyond that replacing tanks on bikes owned by 2nd/3rd owners, bikes out of warranty, etc.  You have to hand it to them for that. 

The criticism of them that they should have known, etc does not take a lot of things into account.  Yes, the tanks should have been more impervious to water, which ethanol introduces into the system.  In a strict sense, it was a design defect.

However, we have to follow the law and accept that NHTSA was made aware of the issues and determined that this was not a "defect" under the law necessitating a recall.

Next, the reality is that a full recall of all affected bikes may have bankrupted Ducati. 

I spent a lot of time being pissed about it, feeling betrayed, etc.  The folks that I dealt with at Ducati, though, were genuinely upset about it and (I felt) really did not like that owners were unhappy, but were limited in what they could do because of the financial realities of the company.  In other words, I think they had noble intent, but were afraid that a 100% acceptable solution was going to kill them.

I coated my S2R tank a long time ago.  I have had no issues since.  This is not a perfect solution, but I've accepted in some ways that it is no different from me dumping the udder exhaust and putting an aftermarket header on, or changing the triple or putting on a better seat -- i.e. the original setup had limitations and I fixed them.

No company is going to be perfect.  Ducati is the pretty girl that can't walk in heels without stumbling.  I still love her.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on May 05, 2014, 07:39:10 AM
Discuss the evils of ethanol all you like as it pertains to Ducati motorcycles or small engines if you choose.

Leave the House, Senate, state laws and legislation out of it.

That part of the discussion is over.

EPA Acknowledges Ethanol Damages Engines
Courtesy of American Motorcyclist Association
Monday, April 21, 2014


American Motorcyclist Association
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has publicly acknowledged that ethanol in gasoline can damage internal combustion engines by increasing exhaust temperatures and indirectly causing component failures, the American Motorcyclist Association reports.

The EPA statements are found in a rule proposal issued by the Federal Trade Commission regarding a new label for pumps that supply fuel blends high in ethanol.

According to the EPA, "ethanol impacts motor vehicles in two primary ways. First ... ethanol enleans the [air/fuel] ratio (increases the proportion of oxygen relative to hydrocarbons) which can lead to increased exhaust gas temperatures and potentially increase incremental deterioration of emission control hardware and performance over time, possibly causing catalyst failure. Second, ethanol can cause materials compatibility issues, which may lead to other component failures.

"In motorcycles and nonroad products [using E15 and higher ethanol blends], EPA raised engine-failure concerns from overheating."

These EPA statements, contained in the FTC document, back the long-held position of the AMA.

"The American Motorcyclist Association has fought the distribution of E15 fuel blends in an effort to protect motorcycle and all-terrain vehicles from the damage that ethanol causes," said Wayne Allard, AMA vice president for government relations. "Now the EPA acknowledges that ethanol itself is harmful to emissions hardware and other components on all motor vehicles. It is time for the federal government to pause, take a hard look at this product and change its entire approach to ethanol in fuels."

E15 is a gasoline formulation that contains up to 15 percent ethanol by volume.

None of the estimated 22 million motorcycles and ATVs currently in operation can use fuels with blends higher than 10 percent ethanol. Doing so could void the manufacturer's warranty, in addition to causing damage to the vehicle.

The AMA applauded the EPA's decision in its proposed rule to roll back the requirement for wider distribution and use of E15 under its Renewable Fuel Standard.

The AMA also is concerned about the continued availability of E10 blends and E0 fuels -- gasoline with zero ethanol content -- if E15 is allowed to permeate the marketplace.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on May 05, 2014, 07:41:50 PM
"Second, ethanol can cause materials compatibility issues, which may lead to other component failures."

Duh...... :-\ :-\ And the judge who ruled on the Ducati plastic tank expansion couldn't figure this out ??? ??? ???

Yes, hind-sight is 20/20, but we saw this problem very clearly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on May 06, 2014, 06:56:42 AM
I'm pretty sure this was settled out of court, which means that a judge didn't rule.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on May 06, 2014, 06:18:51 PM
I'm pretty sure this was settled out of court, which means that a judge didn't rule.

Technicality- Arbitrator: "A person chosen to settle the issue between parties engaged in a dispute. See Synonyms at judge."

Yes, different process, but most/ many arbitrators are ex-judges or dare I say .....lawyers?

Nevertheless, lesser minds than judges could see the inherent damages in the tanks when combined with legally marketed fuel in areas where Ducatis were legally marketed. = liability> Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on May 08, 2014, 11:53:54 AM
To be fair to the arbitrator, the EPA just published their conclusions. I'm sure that this case would have gone a very different direction if the EPA would have admitted back then that ethanol basically screws up everything it touches. 20/20 hindsight.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Desert Dust on May 08, 2014, 07:31:26 PM
To be fair to the arbitrator, the EPA just published their conclusions. I'm sure that this case would have gone a very different direction if the EPA would have admitted back then that ethanol basically screws up everything it touches. 20/20 hindsight.
My point is we could see the flaws, and any "reasonable" person should have seen the flaws in the materials.

I didn't need the EPA to tell me this was a screwed up deal that should have bee COMPLETELY rectified by Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on May 08, 2014, 10:40:11 PM
A more useless website there never was.  There is 1 gas station within 500 miles of me and it is 30+ miles away.  My bike holds 3.5 gallons of fuel so that means I can ride about 100 miles before the fuel light comes on.  You might as well tell me to ride around with a support team to refill my bike whenever I run low on gas.

My 2012 Monster 1100 has had the tank replaced for expansion issues and there have been 3 revisions of the tank for my bike.  Look up the part number for yourselves.  BTW-I paid $300 out of my pocket to have the replacement tank coated before it ever had our crap fuel inside it.  I remain hopeful that I won't have any problems with it.

I'm totally on board with eliminating ethanol from our fuel.


A couple years ago I found a supplier for pure gas or RECreational  gas as its called in my own town that had been their for ever.  OK so you need to be close to a lake but marina's always have pure gas.  Then I looked further for RECreational gas and found another supplier 10 miles away that services inland dirt racers, quads, and sand buggies.  Think outside the usual and you might find it close.  I "finally" got smart, stopped at a couple stations and got a number for their supplier, called them up and they gave me a list of places right under my nose.  My local John Deere dealer even carries pure gas.  But be ready to pay through the that nose especially at a Marina, but they have the best 97.  I don't know why but the marina gas is hot, noticeably, in temp and torque.   Search until exhausted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Jonathan on May 09, 2014, 04:14:59 AM
I'm not sure why folks keep saying replacing all the tanks would bankrupt the company. Volkswagon group, the third largest auto manufacturer in the world, can easily absorb a full recall. If they decided to do it, it wouldn't hardly even touch earnings for the parent. Now whether they should or not is another debate.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: thought on May 09, 2014, 05:49:43 AM
I'm not sure why folks keep saying replacing all the tanks would bankrupt the company. Volkswagon group, the third largest auto manufacturer in the world, can easily absorb a full recall. If they decided to do it, it wouldn't hardly even touch earnings for the parent. Now whether they should or not is another debate.

If you check the dates of this issue and when Audi bought Ducati you'll see that it didnt happen until after the settlement. 

Also, it's mainly the lawyer who ran the settlement that is to blame for the current situation.  He opted to settle on the current situation (probably because he just wanted to make the quick buck vs the true solution)... at which point it became our fault because we were all given a chance to reject that settlement.  Ducatiz even got all the paperwork together for people on this forum... and only 40 people responded I think.

So at this point we're where we are mainly because our own inaction. Caswell'ing your first expanded tank is basically the same as fixing any other issue with any Ducati.  That being said, I highly suggest doing it yourself... it's only $50 for the epoxy, there are lots of guides on the forum, and you'll know that you actually got the whole tank coated.  After having done it twice myself... I personally can almost 100% asssure anyone that some guy in a shop isnt going to make sure to get 100% coverage with what is a really easy but tedious process.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on May 09, 2014, 06:01:29 AM

A couple years ago I found a supplier for pure gas or RECreational  gas as its called in my own town that had been their for ever.  OK so you need to be close to a lake but marina's always have pure gas.  Then I looked further for RECreational gas and found another supplier 10 miles away that services inland dirt racers, quads, and sand buggies.  Think outside the usual and you might find it close.  I "finally" got smart, stopped at a couple stations and got a number for their supplier, called them up and they gave me a list of places right under my nose.  My local John Deere dealer even carries pure gas.  But be ready to pay through the that nose especially at a Marina, but they have the best 97.  I don't know why but the marina gas is hot, noticeably, in temp and torque.   Search until exhausted.

I had my replacement tank coated so it shouldn't be a problem for me anymore.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Curmudgeon on May 09, 2014, 07:23:28 AM
I'm not sure why folks keep saying replacing all the tanks would bankrupt the company. Volkswagon group, the third largest auto manufacturer in the world, can easily absorb a full recall. If they decided to do it, it wouldn't hardly even touch earnings for the parent. Now whether they should or not is another debate.
You are a bit late to the party! ;D

This is a Catch 22 situation. The "fix" might be PEX rather than PA-6 tanks. The EPA "shed tests" were conducted with PA-6 and apparently the "rest of world" PEX tanks don't pass the static evaporation tests. And it's the EPA which mandates E-10 in many locations.

Depending on the warranty and "fit for purpose" arrangements Ducati has with Acerbis, normally Acerbis "might" be on the hook. It's complicated...  8)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on May 09, 2014, 08:48:24 AM
I'm not sure why folks keep saying replacing all the tanks would bankrupt the company. Volkswagon group, the third largest auto manufacturer in the world, can easily absorb a full recall. If they decided to do it, it wouldn't hardly even touch earnings for the parent. Now whether they should or not is another debate.

You're comparing the third largest auto manufacturer in the world to a company that sells maybe 42,000 motorcycles each year, nearly all of which have plastic fuel tanks?  Ducati lists the price of a fuel tank for my bike at $1,800 (and the tank on my bike isn't even painted).  Assume there is a pretty good markup on that and it costs them 1/4th of that which is $450.  That would cost Ducati approximately $19,000,000 just in materials to recall all the tanks for just 1 years worth of production.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Uncle Mofo on May 09, 2014, 11:19:16 AM
No company is going to be perfect.  Ducati is the pretty girl that can't walk in heels without stumbling.  I still love her.
+1  [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Jonathan on May 10, 2014, 04:25:27 PM
You're comparing the third largest auto manufacturer in the world to a company that sells maybe 42,000 motorcycles each year, nearly all of which have plastic fuel tanks?  Ducati lists the price of a fuel tank for my bike at $1,800 (and the tank on my bike isn't even painted).  Assume there is a pretty good markup on that and it costs them 1/4th of that which is $450.  That would cost Ducati approximately $19,000,000 just in materials to recall all the tanks for just 1 years worth of production.

No no. I'm not comparing Ducati to Vokswagon. I'm telling you Ducati is owned by Volkswagon via Audi and Lamborghini. No matter when the settlements happened they can easily fix this today though I'm not sure why they need to on my 9yo s2r. I'm just trying to point out that finances are not the problem. Ducati is not a little firm run by capital starved Italians. It's legal, not financial.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on May 10, 2014, 04:40:31 PM
No no. I'm not comparing Ducati to Vokswagon. I'm telling you Ducati is owned by Volkswagon via Audi and Lamborghini. No matter when the settlements happened they can easily fix this today though I'm not sure why they need to on my 9yo s2r. I'm just trying to point out that finances are not the problem. Ducati is not a little firm run by capital starved Italians. It's legal, not financial.
We don't do legal here.

This thread is actually useless.

The settlement is history and all the supposed interested parties didn't respond when it mattered.

Get over it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Jonathan on May 10, 2014, 06:44:07 PM
We don't do legal here.

This thread is actually useless.

The settlement is history and all the supposed interested parties didn't respond when it mattered.

Get over it.

Sorry to offend. I like my bike as is and don't have an axe to grind except I thought some folks may not know who owns ducati. Sorry if I violated subject rules. Later.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on May 12, 2014, 06:19:33 AM
Jonathan, I don't think you crossed the line, yet. I think DP was trying to stop you before you actually did.

We are aware that Ducati is owned by Audi. We discussed the sale in separate threads. I know it's difficult to read through almost 200 pages, but if you look back you'll see all the dirt around the settlement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on June 26, 2014, 10:21:12 AM
Boo [thumbsdown]
~3 years after Caswell coating the replacement tank it has started to slowly expand...Booooo [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on June 26, 2014, 11:12:23 AM
I'm shocked - not. Of course others will tell you it was not applied correctly which is IMHO part of the reason that Ducati did not offer it as part of a solution, the solution is more art than science. I think the M1200S with a metal tank is going to be more attractive to many buyers, plumbing on left side surely does not look as bad as warped/deformed fuel tank. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 26, 2014, 03:34:46 PM
Wasn't applied correctly.

Mine was a test for it and still perfect.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Ducatamount on June 27, 2014, 02:51:33 AM
Why isn't this thread in tech?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 27, 2014, 05:24:52 AM
Boo [thumbsdown]
~3 years after Caswell coating the replacement tank it has started to slowly expand...Booooo [thumbsdown]

Take the tank off.
Let it fully dry -- CAREFULLY rinse it out with acetone or xylene to get the gas residue out.
Let it sit in a dry place as long as you can -- it will shrink back.
You can apply a half-can of Caswell's on top of the old Caswell.  You don't need to remove it.  Reduce it about 10-15% with xylene.

My fear is that a lot of hacks have done these coatings and stories like this will start appearing.  If the coating was not done properly, it can delaminate or just not have full coverage. 

People who did the coating but did not reduce the coating will likely show up with non-coverage problems.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 27, 2014, 05:29:00 AM
Take the tank off.
Let it fully dry -- CAREFULLY rinse it out with acetone or xylene to get the gas residue out.
Let it sit in a dry place as long as you can -- it will shrink back.
You can apply a half-can of Caswell's on top of the old Caswell.  You don't need to remove it.  Reduce it about 10-15% with xylene.

My fear is that a lot of hacks have done these coatings and stories like this will start appearing.  If the coating was not done properly, it can delaminate or just notjavascript:void(0); have full coverage. 

People who did the coating but did not reduce the coating will likely show up with non-coverage problems.
This...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 27, 2014, 05:35:19 AM
This...


to be fair, the first tank I did was my S2R tank and I did not reduce the coating, but it was a Pain In The Ass, Royale to make sure the coating got everywhere in the tank. I literally spent 2+ hours turning the tank by hand.

The later tanks I did, I reduced the mix and it was FAR FAR FAR easier to get coating and I believe (but can't prove) the reduced coating adheres better since the xylene penetrates the nylon just a tiny bit and I ahve to assume it pulls some of the epoxy with it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on June 27, 2014, 06:33:41 AM
to be fair, the first tank I did was my S2R tank and I did not reduce the coating, but it was a Pain In The Ass, Royale to make sure the coating got everywhere in the tank. I literally spent 2+ hours turning the tank by hand.

The later tanks I did, I reduced the mix and it was FAR FAR FAR easier to get coating and I believe (but can't prove) the reduced coating adheres better since the xylene penetrates the nylon just a tiny bit and I ahve to assume it pulls some of the epoxy with it.
First time I used the Caswell I had the same experience.

It was not a plastic tank, but a custom fiberglass thing.

A real PITA to use straight.

As you are aware the product was designed to seal perforated metal tanks without running out of the holes. That's why it flows like concrete. For a protective seal it doesn't need to be anywhere near that viscous.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SDRider on June 27, 2014, 11:44:28 AM
I'll give a shout out to GTL.  http://www.gastanklining.com/ (http://www.gastanklining.com/)

They did my tank and I'm happy with the results so far.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: blalor on September 22, 2015, 07:05:35 PM
I know this thread is old, and everyone's probably sick of the topic, but I did some searching and this is where I've ended up. What are folks doing about swollen tanks now that the even the extended warranty is up? The newest bike in the settlement is just about out of the extended warranty. I looked at an '06 S2R this evening that's supposedly had the tank replaced and it looks pretty obvious to me that the new tank is expanding, too. Since Ducati didn't change the material, it seems that every S2R is susceptible, right? So what should the owner of a bike with this problem *now* do? Buy a new tank (for a grand!) and Caswell it? Ca-cycleworks tank (which is functional but not very Monster-y)? Attempt to Caswell the existing tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on September 23, 2015, 01:09:22 AM
Not a lot of good options IMHO. The current tank can be dried out and should return to propepr size and shape. Some believe that Caswell would be the solution at that point. My solution was to get rid of my S2R, it was a great bike with some very special mods but I just could not get past the Tank issue. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on September 23, 2015, 09:13:25 AM
I know this thread is old, and everyone's probably sick of the topic, but I did some searching and this is where I've ended up. What are folks doing about swollen tanks now that the even the extended warranty is up? The newest bike in the settlement is just about out of the extended warranty. I looked at an '06 S2R this evening that's supposedly had the tank replaced and it looks pretty obvious to me that the new tank is expanding, too. Since Ducati didn't change the material, it seems that every S2R is susceptible, right? So what should the owner of a bike with this problem *now* do? Buy a new tank (for a grand!) and Caswell it? Ca-cycleworks tank (which is functional but not very Monster-y)? Attempt to Caswell the existing tank?

You dry out the tank and coat it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Speeddog on September 23, 2015, 10:31:17 AM
I've got an '05 S2R800 tank that I've had hanging from the rafters in my shop for ~5 years.
I'm in SoCal, we've averaged 10" of rain per year during that time.
So it's pretty f'n dry.

It's still ~5mm too wide at the tank rubbers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on September 23, 2015, 01:10:49 PM
I've got an '05 S2R800 tank that I've had hanging from the rafters in my shop for ~5 years.
I'm in SoCal, we've averaged 10" of rain per year during that time.
So it's pretty f'n dry.

It's still ~5mm too wide at the tank rubbers.

Show off


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on September 25, 2015, 05:03:05 PM
I've got an '05 S2R800 tank that I've had hanging from the rafters in my shop for ~5 years.
I'm in SoCal, we've averaged 10" of rain per year during that time.
So it's pretty f'n dry.

It's still ~5mm too wide at the tank rubbers.

that is probably within normal variances.  the tanks deform a bit from heat too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on September 25, 2015, 05:06:03 PM
that is probably within normal variances.  the tanks deform a bit from heat too.
Are we talking lawyer tolerances/variances...

or mechanic tolerances/variances? ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on September 25, 2015, 05:29:32 PM
Are we talking lawyer tolerances/variances...

or mechanic tolerances/variances? ;D

probably both, but i've found the measurement to vary a bit.  the tank is flexible and the rubber frame stops have slots that allow them to move about 8-10mm to account for minor variance between tanks & frames.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on September 25, 2015, 05:38:23 PM
probably both, but i've found the measurement to vary a bit.  the tank is flexible and the rubber frame stops have slots that allow them to move about 8-10mm to account for minor variance between tanks & frames.
...and that is the way the steel tank parts were manufactured also.

It depends if the tank is 5 grand over nominal or maximum...

no?

...and if the max allowable on the rubbers only allow for + or - 4 or 5 mm it might be an issue.

Wouldn't you agree counselor? ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Speeddog on September 25, 2015, 07:33:51 PM
It's 5mm too wide with the rubbers pushed all the way inboard.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on September 26, 2015, 09:09:35 AM
It's 5mm too wide with the rubbers pushed all the way inboard.

Yup.  That's not good. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Airborne on September 14, 2021, 06:47:55 PM
I know I’m 190 pages behind in this thread, but I’m on my second tank. Never caswell coated, I just completely drain the tank with “the ultimate siphon” after every time I ride. I call it the bologna defueling procedure. It seems to work, when the tank expands I just let it sit empty for a while and it goes back to normal.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on September 15, 2021, 01:06:23 PM
I followed IZ's instructions to the letter, for a tank that sat without fuel in it for quite a few months to a year I can't remember. But the thing was dry. Washed it out best I could, hot water & Dawn. Let dry again. Cut the inside tank surface with xylene as IZ instructed. Coated it with Caswell after mixing a little xylene in to the mix as per IZ's instructions. No problems after about 3 years or so, or none that I notice with my naked eye. The space between the front of the tank and the ignition has remained the same. Not sure/ have not officially quantified the tank width but it looks the same. I even let fuel sit in it over the winters which I know I should not do but I do it anyway because I'm lazy. No problems. Going to stop leaving fuel in it because it's just so wrong but I have seen no problems at all. The coating process is a pain but it worked out for me. Take thy time and do it right, and your results might be same.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: koko64 on September 15, 2021, 02:10:54 PM
 [thumbsup]


SimplePortal 2.1.1