Ducati Monster Forum

Hello all i am a new member,

I wanted to start a new thread on a well covered topic. Mostly because cycleworks discontinued the replacement harness for the fuel pump

My bike ran out of gas las week. I pushed her to station filled up. The next few rides had i had intermittent starting problems

Now my bike will not start and I do not hear the fuel pump priming

I have checked everything including power going into the fuel pump from outside the tank

Of the four electrical cables going into the tank The white cable going into the tank has power when the key is in the ON position and the red cable in the photo has power no power in the ON position BUT when I hit the start button it does send power. The 2 black cables carry no load so I assume they are both ground.

I am assuming this is all proper and correct so this leads me to believe all my issues are inside the tank.

Broken pump
Or
Broken wire.

Through my research I found out that cycle works used to do a harness that replaced the OEM but no longer make it.

So I wanted to know what my replacement options were if in fact it was a wiring problem?

Also I am not the world's most handiest guy but I don't mind getting my hands dirty

I will have a lot of questions so I wanted this to be a thread for

"the real idiots guide to fixing your fuel pump issues"

I will hope to video my work and put it on YouTube for all to see for those that have future problems

If anybody has any tips or knows what I can use as a wiring harness please start chiming in I appreciate all responses

Update..

I took the pump/flange assembly out and hard wired 12v from the battery to the back of the connector going into the pump.. The pump turned on, did it again just to make sure. And i heard her buzzing.. :-) i guys the pump is good?

So now i have to go backwards and find where the break in the line is

The pump wire...red...will only be live during the priming cycle after turning the key on.

If you had voltage at the red wire during cranking it sounds like the issue is something other than a broken wire.

I'm not sure if the current models are supposed to operate the pump during cranking or not, but none of the efi models operate the pump after priming if the engine isn't running AFAIK.

If your bike is a 2014 model, it's a warranty repair.

Assuming you're in the US, AFAIK, if it's less than 5 years old, it's also a warranty repair as it's an emissions system component.

Failing either of those, I've been told that the wiring passthrough part is now available from Ducati.

No it is not 2014 model I just chose that title because the problem is occurring in the year 2014 so I wanted to give anybody who does a Google search a recent update of this issue

my bike is a 2005 as to our 800

Update

I have confirmed that the problem is a break in the 12v line somewhere between the out side of the flange and where it actually connects to the pump.

I figured this out by

Running 12v direct to pump and connecting the ground cable from the out side of the flange connection. Result pump runs

But

If i connect the ground direct to the back of the pump and run the 12 from outside the flange.. Pump does not run.

So now most of the 12v wire is inside a plastic casing.. How to find the break

Here is some pictures


This first one is the flange exterior which sits outside the tank and seals the gasoline.  The red cable you see is the problem

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/02/u4yqypu9.jpg)

This here is where it connects to the pump

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/02/y8y2apat.jpg)

And here is the whole you unit as it sits inside the gas tank.  You can see most of the red wire is inside the black plastic part

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/02/u6ydygan.jpg)


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

UpdAte

If I wiggle the 12v wire the pump works no problem

I am tempted to just put it back but I know the first bump that I go over the loose connection will come off again

I just don't know how to get in there to secure the connection

As it stands now. I need to figure out how to get to wires and past the black plastic casing

What purpose does the black plastic casing serve there's all kinds of holes in it so the gas does go in there .. So then what function does it serve?

The large black plastic part holds all of the components.

You have to carefully remove the push-nuts that hold the components to it, then the ones that hold it to the metal flange.

I've not heard of a successful repair of the wire pass-thru.
So replacement is the way to go, IMO.

Well if i have to replace it. Here is what i am going to do.

Update

After determining the black plastic case serves no purpose other than holding the components together and forcing Ducati owners to buy complete units I have decided to break a window on the side of it. To see what i can do

This gives me access to the problem area

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/02/rave6uru.jpg)




"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

Last post for the day..

I will most likely continue this wednesday or next sunday. Here is my plan

1.  Clean up the  area i cut with a dremmel.

2. See if i can drill through the epoxy thats holding the wires.

3. Runs a new wire through, fill the drill hole up with in weld or caswell.

4. Clean up the whole unit to make sure no loose plastic bits.. And put back together

Here is how things look now..
If anyone can chime in with ideas.. i would REALLY appreciate it.



(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/02/vedy2u4e.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/02/ta2y8yzy.jpg)

Gotta admit.. Pretty nervous about breaking a window in that plastic housing

As you should be.
Because you can't buy that part seperately.

Just thought of something .

The pump is working fine right now.. The only thing i poked around and physically moved was when i proved the back of the external connector...

WHAT IF it is this piece all along

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/02/ysa2y8av.jpg)

There is noway i can determine that right now because the pump is working

Don't know if this helps, but Chris suggests getting the parts from an Aprilia fuel flange ...

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=61306.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=61306.0)

Sorry I'm late to the party, the 2014 bit threw me off.

That black plastic cover is totally removable, there was need to damage it.  There are round metal locking nuts on those small metal posts that you can pop off with a screwdriver/pliers.  You can see them in your pictures.

The problem you're having is a very common one.  Common enough that someone should have sued Ducati, honestly.  The connection from the outside of the tank to the inside of the tank is what's failing.  It happens to lots of Ducati bikes and CA Cycleworks was selling a replacement for a while but they stopped.

You need to completely remove the pump and the plastic piece so that the fuel flange is basically just metal on both sides.  You'll see the wires (I think 4) running out of a big glop of epoxy (visible in your pictures).  You need to carefully remove this epoxy.

I dug mine out with some dentist tools and a really really small drill bit.  It took less than an hour, it chipped away in rubber chunks like a really firm pencil eraser.  Don't damage the wires unless you feel comfortable splicing new ones inside a fuel tank (I wouldn't).

Once you get down to where the wires are soldered to the flange, you need to re-solder them.  Use very good technique, because it has to last.  Make sure the wire and the contacts get hot, don't just glop solder onto them.  You can test your work but plugging it back into the bike and turning on the key, you'll hear the pump prime if it's working.

Now you can replace the epoxy you removed.  I used J.B. Water Weld because it's supposed to be fuel-proof.  This was about 2 years ago and it's still holding, so I think it works.  Give it a couple days to cure because it needs to be sturdy.

Try to re-use the locking nuts because finding stainless steel ones is a pregnant dog.  The only ones I could find from a store were zinc, and zinc will rust in fuel.  They have to be fuel-proof.  Ditto for whatever glue you use to fix the plastic bits you cut as well.  Maybe Water Weld will work for that as well.

Read more about it here (particularly on page 2):http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=57898.0

Or, you could just replace the wiring fitting with the Ducati part, 51020032A.

Thanks for the info. I am at the stage of digging out the epoxy now.

Basically i cut out a "window" on the side of the plastic to see what was going on in there... I cannot glue it back.. Is this okay?

I looked it up but no photos..what is it? Is a replacing flange?

It's a replacement for the fitting with the wires on each side, the part that failed.

Did they just start selling that?  I'm certain it wasn't available when I had my problem, I checked everywhere.

Regarding the hole in the plastic housing: I have no idea if it will affect operation or not, sorry.  I don't remember exactly how it looked inside.

It's been made available recently.

No idea when, exactly.

Is that part 'universal' ?

I'm told it will fit Monster, Multi, and **9 SBK.

Trying to verify that with some FHE.

Hold on guys!! :)
Please chime in on this first.
If you scroll back to my post from last page, You can see i cut a hole into the plastic to see whats going on in there.

I cannot glue that part back on.. Does this hole affect anything? The plastic looked like all it did was hold the parts together and if that's the sole purpose everything is still solid and intact

That inspection hole shouldn't bother anything.

I just did this today. The positive wire had come loose. I dug out the rubber epoxy, soldered everything back in and filled it back in with ducatibond. I'll post up some pics later so people can see what the inside looks like.

Did you completely dig out the epoxy and what did you use? Would you mind giving a step by step .."how to for dummies"

I used a small drill bit at 1st close to the positive wire. Then I used something that looks like a metal dentist pick, it just kind of crumpled out. I cleared about 1/2 of it out around the +$- wires. In the middle there is plastic that separates the inside from the outside and has small metal tubes going through where the wires get soldered to. I put more solder on the negative wire to reinforce it and stripped of a tiny bit of the positive wire to get a clean surface. I twisted it as much as I could so I could get as much of it in the small metal tube as possible. Then soldered it in and filled in the hole. The pics show everything really well.

Here is a video of Chris from CA Cycleworks taking apart the fuel flange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiHtrzgnncU&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiHtrzgnncU&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

After I got everything apart and the plug out I dug some of the epoxy out.  

Edit: I dug out the ducatibond, the rest of the epoxy and filled it in with Caswells.

Here is a pic of the plug after digging out the epoxy. The positive wire didn't have much solder on it, it came right off.
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/P1030639.jpg) (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/ducaccia/media/P1030639.jpg.html)
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/P1030645.jpg) (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/ducaccia/media/P1030645.jpg.html)

I cut just a little bit off the end of the wire to get to some fresh wire, twisted it to make it as compact as possible and put it in the metal tube.

(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/P1030648.jpg) (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/ducaccia/media/P1030648.jpg.html)

I put a little more solder on the negative wire and soldered up the positive. They should never come off again.

(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/P1030649.jpg) (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/ducaccia/media/P1030649.jpg.html)

Filled it in with Ducatibond

(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/P1030652.jpg) (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/ducaccia/media/P1030652.jpg.html)

This is great!! Thank you ! I am assuming ducati bond can be had at the ducati dealer?

Ducati Bond wouldn't be my choice for a fuel proof/resistant repair.

Maybe it works...but for how long?

2 questions

1. Does ducati sell that plastic component as a seperate piece?

2. If i dont put the plastic component back on. Is there a draw back? I see some duc models have no plastic at all attached to the flange.

Hmmm, ok, I do have some Caswells somewhere in the garage. I'll have to find it and reseal the wires.

Much better choice.

Don't thin it...use as packaged and it should level, but not run out of the joint.

Okay i have followed the instructions in this thread and taken the flange apart. And carved out the putty.. The red wire was disconnected.

So here is my question

1. Should i carve out the whole thing an re-solder all?

2. Should i check the fuel filter is so how, or just replace it since i am here?

3. The metal clamps that were hold in the hoses. Should i reorder oem or can i use any metal hose clamp?

Any tips appreciated

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/09/asydedup.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/09/uhe6a8a4.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/09/da8ytyse.jpg)

1.  Yes.  If another wire fails you'll have to go back in and do it again.  I had 2 or 3 bad wires on mine.  You probably don't need to remove every last drop of the old epoxy but get as much as you can since it's fuel-soaked.  You don't want much in there and definitely none touching the wires.

2.  I don't know how to check it but I just replaced mine.  It was like 12 bucks I think for the aftermarket brand.  Worth not having to take the tank off again for a while IMO.

3.  You have to use metal that can handle being submerged in fuel.  Stainless steel will work.  Many clamps you buy (like the ones from harbor freight) contain Zinc, which cannot be used.  If you're unsure what yours are made out of I would order new ones.

Tips:  I would keep an eye on the connections on the other end of the tank, the heat of soldering my loosen them.  I don't remember if I had that problem or not but I've seen it mentioned.  Also when I plugged mine in to test it, I had to pull pretty forcefully on the connector to release it again.  This sudden jerk of force pulled the wires out and I had to re-solder again, so yeah... watch for that.

Okay so i I am going to carve out both sides and check on all of the connections and then fill them up

the problem is the only thing I can find locally is called permi tex which is supposedly safe against all types of feel has anyone used this before

Well i tried to carve out the exterior epoxy but after drilling a couple of holes i realized it does not crumple out like the interior. I will leave that and fill in the holes i drilled.

The bigger problem is i tried to solder the broken wires back on in the interior side but could not get in there to do the job.

I will take it to an appliance repair shop tomorrow and ask them to do it.

Oh I misunderstood.  Yeah, no need to carve out the dry side of the flange.  Maybe fill in the drill holes so you don't get any moisture in them.

Thats the plan. I will be using permatex to fill them

I ended up digging all the epoxy out of the interior side of the plug and resoldered all wires.

I took off the ring that held the plug in the flange and popped the plug out. Then I put a little paper towel around it(so it wouldn't get scratched) and put it in a vice so I could solder and reseal hands free. I resealed with Caswells, I just happened to have it in my garage.

I dug it all up.. Did all 4 wires and filled it with JB MARINE WELD. Which by the way takes a loooooong time to cure.

I picked up a new fuel filter too.  I had to break the hose clamp tabs though ,  can i use any sort of clamp here? Or it has to be specific that weird ducati oem ones

Ant stainless steel hose clamp will be fine

 Once you have purchased the tool, the Otiker clamps are soooo easy to use! And they are easily available at auto parts places as well.

Hey guys i have everything fixed but having one problem putting the pump back together.. This common ground wire is it supposed to go through the hole?

 Does anybody know where there is a schematic of the pump assembly that shows the electrical wires also

Ok i put everything back together Changed fuel filter too.

The bike turn and does not start .. The fuel pump is priming fine now though.. Any ideas why?

It just sounds like its not getting fuel...  It is maybe i put new filter and there is no gas in it?

Cycle the key a few times to fill the system...see what happens.

Did that. I even turn the throttle while its turning.. It makes it turn a litlle faster but wont fire up

Okay here is an update which may shed light.. I removed the hoses under the tank. When i unplug the out the hose... The hose it self thats connected to the bike (not the tank) started pissing out fuel.. For a good 2 minutes about a half gallon or so.. The gas coming from where the hose is connected to inside my bike

Opening the throttle won't help.

I think on bikes with internal pressure regulators it doesn't matter which hose connects where.

You might try reversing the lines at the flange anyway.

It seems as if my tank has emptied out into the throttle bodies..

How much gas was in the tank...

how is the oil level now?

Is the charcoal canister still in place?
 The main hoses both connect to the bike and the fuel pump, so I don't understand which one you are referring to.....

1/4 tank the oil level is exactly same

 There is nowhere in the throttle bodys for fuel to go to.

No charcoal

The two hoses under the flange .. The flange is marked. In and out with two hoses..

The out hose goes to the injectors, the other line goes from the injectors. (Pressure regulator, actually) where are your breather hoses going?

These hoses connected to the bottom of the fuel tank are the ones that are pissing out gas when i disconnected them.. Just the one on the bottom without the green tape. It was connected to the "out" connection on the bottom of the tank..


(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/13/u9a2evu5.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/13/4etatugy.jpg)

The breather hoses are routed the exact same way they were always

Okay it seems and this is just a guess but there is too much gas coming from the "out" hole.. Everytime i unplug the hose lots of fuel comes out.  I dont think the gasoline should be coming out that fast from the tank to fill up the out line that fast.

These hoses connected to the bottom of the fuel tank are the ones that are pissing out gas when i disconnected them.. Just the one on the bottom without the green tape. It was connected to the "out" connection on the bottom of the tank..


(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/13/u9a2evu5.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/13/4etatugy.jpg)

Okay i took out the fuel pump again and found this had come off...

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/13/se4ymu5u.jpg)


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

Lol what an adventure.. Okay is that thing suppose to pop in? The o ring does not go inside the hole

Okay i popped it back in but those washers are too loose to hold it down. Are those washers the only thing thats supposed to secure it?

 There are spring clips that go over the washers.

Got the bike running!
One of the quick connect pumps wont "click" in now i guess from going in and out so much.. Do i just replace the i ring? Or i have to replace the connector?

Sounds like one of the tabs broke.

Get a new connector and o-ring.

Lube the o-ring before assembly.

Tab? Do you mean the part you squeeze to pull out. If so thats all good still.

Then it should still lock into place.

The o-ring just seals the joint and has no effect on the locking.

The o-rings have swollen a bit it seems i can get into the hole past the o-ring thats why i was thinking

New o-rings are never a bad idea.

Like I said, always lube the o-rings for installation...even used ones.

Lube it with?

A bit of grease lightly applied.

At the track we use what's on hand.

Chain lube works great and won't damage o-rings

So sorry I didn't see this until now. Chris, at Cycleworks says Ducati part number 51020032A is just the wires and plug and costs $138.80. Not bad for all the pain this problem is causing. Call your local Ducati dealer to get it.

I see Pro Italia has it on their website, but they are all that came up for me when I did a Google search.

No problem, this is the one that I talked with you about, I posted the info on page 2.

Didn't seem to be of any interest.  :-\

Perhaps other folks with the same problem will be interested.

No i was going to go for the part. But i just wanted to do it to say i fixed. I was just in that mood :-)

Well, this turned out to be the problem with my bike and due to the series of events it's cost me way more money than it should have.

I took it to my local dealer.  I figured it wasn't worth my time to diddle around with it.  Took them FOREVER.  This is the first non-exclusive Ducati dealer I've been to.  Never again.

A) Diagnosed as fuel pump bad.  Okay... I asked if it was wiring or pump.  Said pump was bad.  I knew this because I could hear it not priming.  Of course I don't want to pay for the OEM assembly for a single bad part.  I buy the CA replacement as I figure it's a known quantity instead of a used one.
B) Dealer installs and it still won't start.  The original tech who worked on mine quit!  So they questioned the diagnosis... as I questioned their competency.  The new tech on my bike wants a full wiring diagram to trace all the wires as he thinks it's something in the "loom".
C) I have to provide them with a manual and wiring diagram because their "local rep" doesn't have a decent enough copy.  Luckily I'm an architect and print a 24x36 copy of the wiring for them!  I don't have to do this, but I don't want them charging me for more time and taking longer because they have a crappy copy of the wiring.
D) They trace everything and come back to the flange wiring!  Which I asked about already.  They proclaim that their original diagnosis was correct because the outcome was the same from their end... replace the fuel assembly.
E) So I tell them to button it up and I'll fix the bike with the CA-Cycleworks kit or the ducati part.
F) Buy kit to find out I need to get ANOTHER part after buying to ensure it works properly.  So here I am buying another Ducati fuel pump/flange assembly to salvage the wiring.  If you're following this I could have done this from the start and swapped in a used fuel pump and the wiring and have been done!

/RANT

This has lead me to wonder what is stopping an external fuel pump from working?  If the whole problem is the internal wiring getting jacked up from fuel... take it out of the fuel!  It seems there are places to put it outside the tank.