Ducati Monster Forum

looking at picking up one of these tanks for my new tricolore project . . . which would you grab and why?

(eti can and will build the correct tank for FI monsters including the RS with the 1098 fuel pump flange
http://eti-fuelcel.com/DucatiMonster.html
(http://eti-fuelcel.com/images/FuelCel-Ducati-Monster-side.jpg)
(http://eti-fuelcel.com/images/FuelCel-Ducati-Monster-bottom.jpg)

OR

http://www.legendary-motorcycles.com/Alloytanksseats.html
(http://www.legendary-motorcycles.com/image/obj1467geo1126p14.png)
(http://www.legendary-motorcycles.com/image/obj1483geo1139p14.png)

That aluminum tank looks like a really well-crafted piece and I appreciate all the work that seems to go into it, but I have an ETI kevlar tank (FI) and wouldn't trade it for anything else.  For me, it's a matter of weight; the ETI tank is very light (8+ pounds lighter than stock), and removing that much weight so high up on the bike really improves handling.  When I got mine, I had to send him a stock tank so he could pull a mold from it. 

What are you referring to when you wrote, "including the RS with the 1098 fuel pump flange?"  The S4RS?  I didn't know it had a different flange, but I guess it makes sense that it would.

Good question. And it is great that both options have become available.

It would be interesting to know the capacity of the aluminium tank. FuelCel quotes capacity of the kevlar tank at 19 litres - an excellent feature if fuel range is important.

On fuel pumps, I think all the Testastretta S4R/s bikes need the oval flange, as shown for the aluminium tank.

Would the aluminium have better longevity? 

correct, the S4RS uses the larger, oval 1098 flange/fuel pump

all the reports I've read from ETI users seemed to be very positive even after many years

Any price on the ETI tank yet?  I really need more capacity. My tank is coated but I swear the capacity is getting lower.

ETI lost me as a customer, after two tanks ended up pushing fasteners up and causing a section of bumps in a beautiful paint job that Nate did ‘twice. I went to a DP carbon fiber tank. The make the beast with two backs up set me back two years on my build.

I've got the S4Rs 'beater' ally tank and it's a work of art.
I like the idea of the eti tank being less prone to dings and also really wanted extra capacity.

I've the Legendary tank in a box in my garage waiting to be assembled to the bike. I have a 1 month break from school so I hope to have it all test fitted by XMAS. I'll let you all know if I find any caveats...

is that the japanese one?

very curious to hear about it

I've put it up before. This is the 'beater' tank. (Japenese ,yes)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/dp7laf.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/kasbxh.jpg)

Can you elaborate? Did it swell because of ethanol?

No ethanol, I use only pure gas. I donated my steel efi tank to make the mold. It had to do something with the plate that held the fuel opening. Happened a few months after I got it, was returned, fixed, repainted (damn that was an awesome paint job) and it happened again. I’m pretty sure he’s straightened that issue out. I had given up back then. I really like their products, but I had a bad go. Happens.

When I got mine made, they asked for an FI tank to take a mold from, which at the time I thought would be unnecessary since I'd read how you had already done that and assumed they'd have a mold.  Which fasteners were pushing through the paint?  I never painted my tank, so no paint to ruin, but I'm planning to one of these days.  They say ethanol isn't an issue for their tanks, and I believe them, since I left a tankful of it sit for a year with no problems.

Uglyduck, what's the weight on that aluminum tank?  

dunno yet, was hoping to get a fender, seat pan and tank from them but he wrote me back saying they are way behind on projects. I asked if I could just order a tank and he hasn't responded yet.  I heard somewhere that the aluminum is prone to corrosion. Can they be caswelled like the poly's? would it mitigate that issue if so?

I'd like to know more about the current options as well.  Like many of you, I purchased the S2R with the intent of keeping and modding it, only to discover the poor material spec on the tanks.  I had hoped the supplier MotoWheels had contacted would be able to deliver, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

My current tank is slightly elongated (so the latch clearance is difficult).  Do either aluminum tank suppliers require sending in a tank to ensure dimensional accuracy?  I see Beater has options for the S4R, the S2R has a different fuel pump.  Could the oval be used on an S2R, or would I need to provide my tank as a reference for the lower panel?

Update on my Legendary motorcycles tank. I un-boxed it this weekend and was dry-fitting all the parts. I found the cutout for the fill cap was too small by @1.5 mm. I emailed Dave, and he is having me send the tank back to him. He explained he had a set of three fill cap cutouts that came back small from the c&c, and he didn't catch mine before it went out. I'm sad my tank will be gone for a while, but I am very happy Dave offered to make it right, no questions asked. I also asked Dave about sending him my seat cowl and he indicated he is behind/busy and can't take on too much new work right now. Having examined the tank, I am very happy with my purchase, I'll make a real review thread when I get the tank back and start remounting it.

Thanks for the info. I did get an email from Dave since I asked a few questions through their website. The tank sounds like it's wel made and at least up to aerospace quality. I don't know if you recall but a year or so ago there was interest in tanks made by a company (?) in India. Not high quality control from what I heard. I was one of the first guys who spurred Martin (Moto) to cintactvhus supplier in Italy. Unfortunately that never materialized so I'm once again looking for a more kermsbent solution for the flexy tank S2R.

So, speaking of flexy. My tank is probably elongated, and it doesn't sound like Dave needs a reference tank for dimensions. Once you get your tank back, let me know how it's fitting with your seat and clearance to the front latch / ignition area. Do you have the original seat or do you have any of the parts that were offered in the settlement?

Thanks for any info. It sounds like a high quality option for the DS Monsters.

Chet

Went ahead and ordered my tank from legendary. I’ll keep you all posted. Anyone suggest a great painter in SoCal?

welp, that was fast!! tank showed up today. They must have had a return or one sitting on the shelf.  Either way, definitely more "robust" in it's build than I expected (which is a good thing). My complaint would be the finish details are a little sloppy. Overall it's pretty nice but some areas are not very consistent such as the gas cap opening. There are some spots of wavering depths and diameter. All in all it's a nice piece of custom work and she's on her way to speeddog to fit up on the new RS. More to follow post fitment and paint!

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4664/40255223681_47909aa8d6_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4769/40210952072_3ee6e8ecb4_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4628/39544020074_5dceffedae_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4701/39357549715_3baa72d19e_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4602/40255223211_8776671b65_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4758/25384477997_aef254bd7f_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4755/40255223081_56297f2f0d_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4627/25384477877_faae557e62_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4702/26382924518_3434805776_c.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4755/26382922718_f6a5cb5abd_c.jpg)
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4603/39357545795_0455f39097_c.jpg)

 ;D That looks a little rougher than my S2R tank came out. Could definitely use some time on the sanding block. Can't wait to see it painted and fitted.

What are you doing for paint??

 [thumbsup]

Good to have an option for the future. My old girl has the early 18 L tank and I doubt I will find another.

dunno yet. prob some cool earth toned retro colors. gonna have a buddy draw some stuff up

Are you going to paint it yourself, or have it done?

You said you sent it to speeddog, so I'm assuming you're local to socal. I need to find a good painter for mine.  I have my final presentation for my masters program this weekend, then I can unbox my tank and start putting my bike back together.  [beer]

Looks good. I Caswelled the tank on my bike since it was a warranty replacement but I love these aluminum tanks. I'm assuming the prevailing reason for buying one is the stock nylon tank is swelly. Tell me though, forgive if this has already been discussed but what's the weight savings with these aluminum fuel cells?

My s2r legendary tank is just under 12lb. Don't know what the stock weighs but it's a lot heavier on my arm scales. I'll weight them side by side once I get mine painted.

IIRC a plastic S2R tank, with guts installed, was ~23 ish pounds.

going to have a local painter do it. was referred by a friend. i'll let you know how it comes out as i've never used him but he clearly seems to be very talented.

so follow up to my tank:
showed up with a small dent, fuel pump didn't fit AT ALL and seat hinge is wrong size and doesn't fit hardware. legendary initially asked me to mark areas and send measurements where fitment was an issue, i laughed and said "no thanks". they explained that they've made "hundreds" of tanks for s4rs ducs but requested the tank came back with my fuel pump and i said "no thanks". I'm not sure what the deal was but if you've made hundreds of tanks from a template i don't get why you'd need someone's measurements and parts. nevertheless, the tank was returned to legendary about a month ago and another has arrived this past weekend. it's en route to speeddog to check fitment. this one is ever rougher in finish but we shall see. all in all my experience has not been great with them but if it rids me of my plastic ducati nightmare i suppose it was worth it. for what they charge, these should not be issues customers need to deal with. 

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/958/41646542572_b43e5a986c_z.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/952/41646542562_bd4072d24a_z.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/825/41646542532_5553f1462c_z.jpg)

Wow! Pretty flash [thumbsup]

Any updates uglyducky on the new replacement tank?

not at the moment. having a hell of a time finding a place to line the inside of the tank due to being aluminum. fitment seems to be better but not sure if speeddog has had time to check for leaks and get a full bolt on fitment test

http://www.gastanklining.com/index.html

These guys will do aluminum, and I think they are in LA. I haven't got a quote yet, but I'm probably going to send mine to them when I finish my paint prep / sanding / etc.

Yup, they were my first email a few weeks ago. No longer do aluminum:
“Hi Jesse,

Thanks for the inquiry...but, we no longer line aluminum tanks, there's just not enough of them out there.

Regards,
Tony

GTL Advantage
6909 Farmdale Ave Unit A
North Hollywood, Ca. 91605
818.759.4724
Hours Tues-Fri 10 a.m. to 5 p.m.”

I've examined the tank in enough detail to make a decision on my part.

The fuel pump assembly touches something inside the tank.
Likely these raw edges.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/881/42413297092_332d2cb0b3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27BVeyY)


All six fuel pump attachment screw holes are 'through', exposed to the liquid fuel in the tank.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/902/41561325755_00c5dba60d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26jCEaZ)


Vent and overflow lines, non-immersion rated 30R7 hose:

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/885/42413301872_becccd4715_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27BVfZo)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/874/41561325455_3124950435_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26jCE5P)


Drain line at the cap, hose attached with Oetiker clamp.
The vent hose has an Oetiker clamp too.
So the non-immersion rated hoses cannot be replaced.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/893/41561326155_d75b5d316b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26jCEhT)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/874/42413297612_b294cb23be_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27BVeHW)


Fuel cap attachment holes 'through' as well:

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/881/41740877284_1b078b487d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26AuUA1)

Seal the bolts with Stag Jointing Paste? Only product I know that is fuel proof and permanent (as much as you want it to be).

If the issues were easily fixed, it'd be a different story.
But.
The 30R7 fuel lines inside the tank will fail sooner rather than later.
I cannot fix the lines without cutting the tank open.

Wow :-\

Damn!

So dainty Geisha's fitted the lines or they were fitted before the final panel was welded in place? ???

Are you considering running a custom plate with external pump and filter?

I don't think there exists on earth a pair of hands that could do it.

I've got no fundamental objection to serial assembly, as long as it's done in a way such that parts are replaceable.

Bummer!

Sheesh, that's totally unacceptable, even more so for a premium product. I guess it's going back for a refund.

The poor finish quality is one thing, the rest, IMO, just not acceptable.

Invitation to come here and comment in the thread has been extended to Legendary.

They're in Florida, so not likely any response today.

 [popcorn]

I'm going to have to recant on my earlier post, these alu tanks are a nice try but the details are not being addressed obviously. At this point I think the best thing to do is to stick with OE. The "plastic nightmare" is not as bad as people make it out to be; according to Ducatiz the resident plastic tank swelling expert and lawyer, the swelled out tanks will return to normal size once drained, cleaned, and left to dry & air out for about 6 to 9 months. Then they can be Caswelled and no more issues.

I like the weight savings and all, but the fitment is off and using fuel hose inside a fuel tank that isn't rated for constant immersion in fuel is irresponsible and indicative of an idea that just hasn't been thought through. These guys are almost there but almost isn't good enough. They need to listen to us on this, but from what I've read in this thread I have my doubts as to their sincerity in doing so.

They say they've done "hundreds" of these tanks; that is a lie. If so they have done "hundreds" of these tanks totally wrong. I think since the prices are similar, I'd rather another OE Ducati fuel cell if it got to the point where I absolutely had to replace it. But as stated, the tanks can be returned to original shape and dimension by merely drying them out, so it appears there is no need to absolutely replace them at all. Even a crashed & rashed one can be repainted to original finish.

Speeddog,

I replied to your PM with some info, I wasn't sure was appropriate to put in this thread. I'll let you adjudicate that.

I think there are a couple specific items that are not what was represented originally. For me the most important are the threaded holes going through on the fuel flange and the rubber bumper mounts. These should have been closed end blind nuts. I'm looking into some solutions (closed end rivet nuts / blind nuts / etc) that could be installed prior to a tank seal.

The fit and finish on mine seems to be a little better than the one in this thread. A few passes with sandpaper got the hinge mount to fit the mounting bracket smoothly, and there is some minor out-of-roundness at the gas cap opening that will sand out easy enough. These are the kind of little things I expect and accept out of a hand made piece, of a certain price. I'll likely keep working mine as a project, but I wouldn't recommend legendary to anyone else unless they fix the obvious issues. It's a shame, because Dave has a good rep in the classic community. It seems he just didn't put the same craftsmanship into the Duc tanks.

unfortunately this is not the case, even caswell lined tanks are prone to expansion again. it's happened to me twice

Who lined the tanks?

If done fastidiously and properly, it won't fail. Perennial problem with lining gas tanks. Preparation is critical, it's like 95% of the process. I took two months to get it done with mine, making sure I had prepped it and double prepped it. No problems at all so far. What happened to you was delamination of the coating in a nook or cranny that didn't get prepped or coated properly, or both.

Even still, just let it dry & shrink back, & coat it again Jack...

I'm interested in the response from the mfr. It's a shame, there's a huge amount of work in each tank so they must be done right as a hand made piece. It's so labour intensive that the siuation has to be remedied or else bad examples of a skilled craftsman's work will circulate. Then there's the internet...
I'm in awe of and envious of those with the skill who can do this kind of work. If I crafted this tank I'd be all over this and rectify the situation asap. Surely the tank can be returned for the part to be completed correctly and all issues rectified at the mfr's expense?

Damn I really wanted one of those eventually. I wonder if the Japanese Beater tanks are any different. Having an alum tank and tail cover painted with some exposed brushed alum would be sexy as hell.

...So how bout them Kevlar tanks lol

I think it's safe to say Japanese craftsmanship in this instance would be much better than anything from Legendary. They started making the aluminum tanks to begin with, then Legendary decided they were going to do the same. As it often happens, the also-rans don't end up being as good. Then there is the Japanese tendency to be quality-obsessed. At this point I'd gamble on a Japanese aluminum tank before I'd gamble on a Legendary. You'll pay for that quality though, over and above both OE and Legendary prices.

Sorry for the late reply as I have been extremely busy. I would like to clear up some misconceptions about composite tanks and the other questions brought forth about them and the aluminum tanks in general.
 I'd like to start by addressing this in a sort of historical or chronological order to help everyone understand how we got here and what we are doing now and in the future moving forward.
First I would like to introduce myself as a motorcycle enthusiast who was brought up in a motorcycle family from the mid 1960's. My father owned a sheetmetal and heating business where my grandfather was metalsmith who learned his trade in the "old country". I learned by watching gramps smith copper bowls, vases fireplace hoods basins etc. My motorcycle awakening was when the local Schwinn shop started importing the Honda 50 cub. It was analogous as the Beatles British music Invasion.
 As time went on my interests shifted to bikes in general and I was eventually sent to Honda Service Training at age 16 the same year Dick Mann won at Daytona. My instructor was the head team mechanic.
 Fast forward to late 1990's -2000's, I owned a large business fabricating composite Architectural elements that shipped product worldwide. Our success was based on our products being "on budget, on time" and our impeccable customer service headed by my wife over the last 35+ years.
 Now semi retired after wrapping up my big factory we've moved to a smaller facility.
I contract specialty composite parts for theme parks, and enjoy hand fabricating historically significant motorcycle parts. I have a metal shop including lathe and CNC mill, and a casting department whereas my latest acquisition of 3-d printing technology enables us to replicate about any part for any bike. We have a very small close team of people here, all very good at what they do.
 Digressing to my composite experiences, we fabricated glassfiber parts and gas tanks since 2007. I searched the entire world for resin that would withstand (The then new) issues with ethanol fuel corrosion. I tried and tested all forms of resins, from phenolic, non phenol (epoxies), styrene, vinyl ester and hybrids. I further contacted rotomolding companies with various thermoplastic solutions for testing and evaluation. After absorption testing we settled on a resin from a German chemical company and worked with them to find the best solution for long term fuel storage. The conclusion was as it remains...there is no resin that will permanently withstand the chemicals used in "pump gas" period!
Just a word to the wise; just because a composite tank on the market is "KEVLAR", it still has to have a plastic resin binder. The Kevlar (trade name) is a aramid fiber which basically takes the place of glass fibers, doesn't make it any more resilient to fuel corrosion than fiberglass. You basically now just have an overpriced tank that is prone to failure. Do you not think Ducati tried to crack that after product failure revealed itself?
Kevlar tanks are overpriced unicorns...
 Our attention was to immediately turn our fuel cell products solely  to aluminum for a truly permanent solution.
 That said, if there was any possible way to avoid the long laborious task of shaping, machining billet parts and hundreds of inches of welding, I would be molding gas tanks, not handmaking them one at a time. A fellow with a Ducati repair garage does not make a solid expert opinion on composite or aluminum fuel cell construction standards.
 There has been speculation of poor quality and workmanship issues with Legendary tanks...we have many of these out there in the hands of very happy customers and have one unhappy customer that his mechanic evidently talked him into a Kevlar resin tank.
The mechanic showed photos of lack of blind holes in two locations. The pump flange and fuel cap well as if we perpetrated an unacceptable method or standard. All other metal manufacturered tanks on showroom floors all over the world are designed and built like that. It's the "standard" and we supply an aerospace quality fuel sealant to use on those screw threads as opposed to a composite tank where that's the method you have to use.
 Unfortunately it's been put forth in a way that implies we did something underhanded.
We also had a group of 3 tanks that were inadvertently fabricated with the S2R panels which interfered with fuel pump assembly. These tanks were shipped back at our expense and repaired immediately. The hose which had spec'd as immersible came in as non on a tank and customer service offered, again to have the tank returned on our dime for refitting.
 If anyone cares to look over the description, it states these are "painters" made to be refinished (not buffed shiny). Before leaving the shop they get a Smoothing with a rotary sander where the panels are welded together. Those areas are not very photogenic but I guarantee they are flat, smooth and ready for your basic body shop paint primer as the first step in the paint process. We're very proud of the smoothness before it gets to the customer.
 In closing, these tanks were designed to outlast the bikes they're fitted on. There's a reason why others have tried and failed fabricating these in significant numbers.  The cost of building these are quite horrendous...however we keep striving for quality.
We have a bonafide licensed company. We carry over a million in product liability insurance and have been doing this a very long time. We have hundreds of very happy customers worldwide and often get personal phone calls from folks ecstatic about their product. 
We constantly strive for the most efficient methods of fabrication and have recently invested in an electric forge to make non-pourous castings. Future plans are to cast the hand fabrication and labor intensive welded areas of the tank bottoms so that we may keep the price down to the end user and continue fabrication in the future.
David and Cheryl Ashenbrener,
Legendary-Motorcycles.

Thanks for taking the time to come here and respond. I hope that everyone who responds to you does so in a respectful manner, because name calling and insults are not tolerated here...from anyone on either side of the discussion.

First...the 'fellow with the Ducati garage' who's opinion you're disparaging also happens to be a degreed engineer. You have no idea what his field of expertise may be. Nowhere in his comments did he say, or imply, he thought you were doing anything underhanded. He stated nothing can be done about the non submersion rated hose, and implied that the open fasteners are not his idea of the best.

Whether the fasteners need to be 'blind', or whether your 'aerospace quality sealant' is adequate, I can't say. I'm not an engineer, or chemist. Blind fasteners would certainly eliminate any question, in my mind.

That aside, what about the non fuel resistant hose on the tank interior? You neglected to address that point. That 30R7 hose is not intended for submersion in any fuel. When that hose deteriorates and the tank leaks, and from personal experience it will, what does your customer do?

That, IMO, is the only thing 'wrong' with your product. You've produced what you claim is a 'permanent solution' with an unsuitable, non servicable, component.

What say you?

I’m sorry if I stepped on anybody’s toes here. I was only told “my mechanic” by the customer. He posted this and the pics before our customer had even communicated with us about the issues.
The customer was offered the option to have the tank returned to us, at our expense, to be refitted with the proper submersible lines.
Allow me to use this quote from my original reply concerning the lines.
“The hose which had spec'd as submersible came in as non on a tank and customer service offered, again to have the tank returned on our dime for refitting.“
If you go to our Website it clearly states that the holes are "Tapped" not Blind.
While it would be nice to have Blind nuts for fasteners the cost would be quite high. With all the resistance we have seen with regard to our price, we have not implemented that option yet. Perhaps we could offer it as an upgrade.
Please take this opportunity to tell us what is on your wish list as we continue to upgrade our products.

Dave...

You didn't step on anyone's toes. You had limited information, and I simply stated a fact of which you were not aware.

I was not made aware of the offer to replace the non submersible lines at your cost. If I missed it in your post here, I apologize. In my mind that changes things...a lot.

Everyone is always concerned with price. I was in business, and there is always a concern to be able to offer a product that is priced to the customers pocketbook and also allows the manufacturer/shop to maintain quality while making money. That's why you do it. Two out of three isn't good enough. I failed to make money. ;D That said, if I was in the market for an item in the price range of your product, I don't think I would balk at an increase for blind fasteners unless it was a huge increase. We're likely talking ~50 ish dollars, or am I out of touch with reality?

If it were I making the tanks, I'd use blind fasteners period. I wouldn't do it any other way. Ethanol has proven to be a bane to the automotive world, and being a spray painter for many years I've seen many products that were supposed to work that didn't. I guess I don't trust a sealer manufacturer to be able to come up with a product resistant to fuel permanently while resin manufacturers couldn't. An aerospace manufacturer made the o-rings that failed on 'Challenger' after all.

Better living through chemistry...right?

While we're at it, what about the area in the tank interior that contacts the pump? Can that be remedied also?

The opinion of a humble Sole Trader.

Your customer's mechanic has to service and troubleshoot on the ground, so I appreciate his position. I think he was perplexed rather than disparaging.  Im sure this particular item is an anomoly and not a run of design flaws. It's a premium, hand made product so I don't understand a couple of things. For permanently enclosed tanks the internal lines could be alloy tubing (or other appropriate material) instead of rubber hose, or are there issues with vibration induced fractures? Rubber lines should not be used unless serviceable no matter what type (from the perspective of someone who works on bikes). Things go wrong and service access is everything.

This is a committed community and protective of its members interests, so please understand our vigilant responses. I understand that small business is difficult and niche' businesses more so.

Given the pride in your work and it's painstaking nature, I'm sure you would rectify these issues as you have offered and glad to see your response here.

Our production plans are to change to cast bottoms which will facilitate Blind threaded attachments. We will also be changing the cap to a twist lock style with a new style filler well which will include blind threads.
While this bottom issue was not typical, and there was an error in assembly, when the S2R bottom panels were welded into this tank. We immediately brought it back and replaced the tank. We purchased an additional pump to test fit with the customer’s tank. While installing it we discovered that one of the hose clamps needs to be rotated 90 degrees, so the adjuster side is away from the inner tank and it slips into place easily. Once in place the Fuel pump does not contact the inner tank.
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to share our perspective and our plans.

Thank you for the suggestion of solid vent tubing, however you are correct, the vibration, expansion and contraction would be a sure failure. We have chosen the best quality, most reliable and usable solutions to the complex configuration of these tanks.
Please remember we Warranty our tanks, which has not been mentioned here as of yet. If the Vent lines go bad or need replacing it is easier and safer for us to bring the tank in and do the necessary repairs. No that is not what we all hope for. However it is the reality of manufacturing and maintaining our reputation for excellent customer service.

Thanks for clarifying that. Do you have to cut the tank open to change lines or will the cast base have provision for service access? I honestly assumed some kind of warranty given the product and country of origin. ;)

Dang. Well done Dave and Cheryl from Legendary. Means a lot to me personally to see you come in here and respond, also when my Caswell fails :D I will now have an option to continue ownership of an otherwise fantastic motorcycle.

Just a question Dave. The early Monster steel tanks had internal lines that were solid steel tubing, and in all the hundreds of tanks I've repaired, I never had to repair a cracked/broken tube...plugged yes. Is the difference in the properties of aluminum, in the available alloys, the reason you believe a solid tube would fail?

BTW, I also appreciate you being here to discuss this. Too many manufacturers wouldn't even consider it.

Just to clarify, in the event of failure the internal fuel line is a warranty item requiring the tank to be cut open or is the line accessible for servicing? Pardon me if I missed that point. Submersible fuel line of the best quality would be considered a higher mileage service item and generally not impervious to ethanol fuels, which is more of a problem on your side of the pond. Is there a submersible line ethanol compatible that you use? The whole issue of aftermarket tanks has been partially driven by ethanol fuels.

Props to Legendary for the great responses! Time to hit the lotto so I can get an Alum tank for the S4RT.

Perhaps use that hard plastic accordion tubing similar to what's used on the fuel pump assembly for the vent tubing? Surely the submerged tubing problem can be solved somehow.

I’ll start with a short description of my qualifications that are relevant to a discussion of motorcycle fuel tanks.
I’ve got a Bachelor of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering.
I’ve been working on cars and bikes for 50 years (yes, since I was 5).
My father has both a BSME and an MSME degree.
I’ve worked as a mechanical engineer for Billion dollar companies in motorsports and aerospace.
I’ve been fitting aftermarket parts to motorcycles for 40 years.
I am far more than “A fellow with a Ducati repair garage”.
That’s more than enough dick swinging for the matter at hand, so we won’t need to go there again.


I don’t know who you’re talking about, but it’s not me, I’ve not talked my unhappy customer into a Kevlar resin tank.


Open (non-blind) holes
The first two sentences are true, I indeed showed photos of the lack of blind holes in two locations, and I stand by the conclusion that it’s “an unacceptable method or standard”..
The rest of your statement is categorically untrue.
I’ve never seen a motorcycle gas tank in metal or plastic with non-blind holes through to the interior in the manner you have executed.
I’ve inspected 4 different style Ducati tanks in my shop, using a borescope.
None of those have non-blind holes.
In anticipation of a reply along the lines of “Well, everyone *else* does it that way.” Here’s a photo of the petcock mounting flange on an aluminum Honda RC30 gas tank.
It clearly shows a boss on the inside so that the screw hole is blind.
All of the other holes on that tank are the same as well, possessing bosses such that the holes are blind.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1726/42023125974_ffa0af8860_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/272rvhJ)

The “Aerospace quality fuel sealant” was neither provided with either tank, nor mentioned until I identified the through holes as a potential leak.

I have talked to Damon Industries directly about their Red-Kote.
They categorically denied any “Aerospace” qualifications for that product.

Furthermore, the holes in your tank for the latch and the rubber pads are blind.
There must be some reason you did it that way, as it's more difficult.
Why did you only do some of the holes that way?

Rubber lines

The rubber lines in the tank will eventually fail and need to be replaced.
The Legendary tank in my shop, the one that I photographed, cannot have the hoses replaced without cutting the tank open, as you stated. Are you stating that cutting the tank open to replace the lines is a “standard” repair method?

Regarding metal lines, the above noted RC30 tank has aluminum tubing inside the tank, welded in place to provide a filler cavity drain.


Fuel Pump Clearance


That describes the first tank that I received, it did interfere massively with the fuel pump assembly.
Indeed, it was shipped back at your expense.
The 2nd tank is definitely not the 1st tank in a repaired state, the welds and surface finish marks on it do not match the photos I have of the 1st tank.

Yes, you offered to have the 2nd tank returned and refitted with proper hose.

Regarding your Offers

There are other things you offered to me, when we spoke on the phone about the issues with the first tank. You offered me the opportunity to measure the tank and fuel pump, and mark where it needed to be clearanced or modified to avoid interference with the fuel pump assembly. But I’d need to check to make sure that mod didn’t interfere with the battery, or the wiring, or or or ….You even offered the opportunity to fix it myself or have someone else fix it.

You’re now offering me the opportunity to box up the 2nd tank, and tote it to UPS, so you guys can fix it too.

All of these offers and opportunities for future work, plus the work that I had to do test fitting the tank and parts, taking pictures, talking with my customer, talking with you, writing the first summary, and writing this reply.

These offers, and opportunities, are only missing one thing.
Payment.
You manufactured the tank and sold it to my customer.
You now have that money.
Yet, you’ve never offered to pay me for the time I’ve put in to identify the problems.
Or pay me for boxing up the 1st tank and taking it to UPS.
Nor offered to pay me for the R&D effort to help you fix it.
Let alone the cost of somebody else fixing it.
I’ve easily spent 5 hours on it just today, and certainly at least that much again with all the work done before.
I’m more than happy to send you an invoice for that, say 10 hours at my shop rate of $84/hr.
Because I can't in good conscience bill my customer for errors that *you* made.
Would you like me to send that invoice via email or USPS?

Liability

Along with the previous offers of fixing it myself, or having someone fix it, or using a liquid sealer on the threaded holes, comes the attachment of liability. The moment I do something, it becomes my problem too.
I am not willing to go bankrupt paying lawyers to defend myself against the consequences of errors that *you* made.

Additionally, quite a few houses here have a gas-fired water heater in the attached garage.
So, there is the risk of an internal non-immersion rated hose leaking, let’s say 3 gallons of gasoline onto the floor of a closed garage with an open flame in the water heater.
Those houses have bedrooms attached to the garage, or even over it.
I have no desire to have that disaster hanging over my head.

 [popcorn]

Side note: there are two legendary tank owners in this thread, neither of them are happy with their tanks.

At this point I just want my money back so that I can purchase another outrageously priced product that is built right the first, not third, time. My mechanic didn’t talk me into buying anything, I wrote you an email stating I was going to purchase from another manufacturer upon hearing the issues in the second tank. You made the rest of the story up about a Kevlar tank and me being talked into that. I have no interest at this point in a Kevlar tank, I’m going to buy a Japanese ”beater” alum tank as they appear to be a better built piece.

For the record, I told you at legendary that I suspected the first tank had the wrong bottom pan and was intended for an S2r. I was told you’ve made “hundreds” of these tanks for the s4rs and you knew how to make them. Surprisingly, you needed a fuel pump to complete the build and asked me to send you mine. You certainly asked (after some serious shade throwing) my mechanic to help identify and rectify your deficiencies in craftsmanship. I’m not saying anything underhanded happened but I do believe there are a few stories that don’t seem to add up. Now we are pushing 5 months and you’re asking me to send the tank back YET AGAIN for a god knows when turnaround? So I get to spend half a year waiting on the right version of a tank you’ve made hundreds of??? Did I just really get that lucky? For $2k this is absolute bullshit.

Legal council has advised me that my above statements regarding the liability are indeed true, and that in reality the exposure may even be worse.

yet you are unwilling to offer these amendments to the tank in question here . . . I think this speaks volumes to the integrity of the operation.

I remain hopeful the tanks will one day be GTG. Meanwhile I just got a great deal on a NOS S4RS tank, never had fuel in it. I'll keep it as a spare. Let's not beat Legendary up too bad here folks. It's hard to want to try and work with people when they're attacking you.

I try to be understanding and usually appreciate effort even if it's not a great result at first try.

Selling these tanks at full price.... maybe the product wasn't finished...

If they can take a good forum beating, accept the shortcomings and correct them = respect.


Maybe California CycleWorks should make a stockish looking tank. I remember that being the (our?) plan, but ended being only their track tank. It has proved itself and is quite affordable.

I always hoped Chris would bring out stock looking Monster tanks.

I don't see, and won't allow, any attacks.

Questions have been posed, and some have been answered. Some key points have not been addressed.

I'm waiting.

Let's try and keep this to topic.

It's also hard to spend $2k on a tank that the manufacturer themselves have deemed worthy of a fabrication revamp yet have declined to offer these amendments in this case. It's absurd really. Nick (speeddog) spent a lot of time and energy going through and giving feedback on the tank to the manufacturer. As a direct consequence of his sharp eye and engineering acumen, they needed to rethink their fabrication process. When I called them to explain that the first fuel pump didn't fit, they were absolutely incredulous. They only came here to defend themselves after dismissing both him and the feedback (all of which proved to be 100% spot on). All concessions have come under great pressure, not logically or preemptively.

I was told by legendary that the improper fuel lines were GTG, seriously. I explained that a quick google search would indeed dismantle this idea quite quickly and was dumbfounded they even defended their choice of fuel lines. They did later offer to replace the lines only and not address the mismatch of some blind screw holes, some not. They're yet to make good on or offer to make good on the issues in their entirety and have been asked numerous times offline to do so. I don't see why they have earned the benefit of any doubt. I've also learned that numerous buyers of these tanks have struggled with leaks which leads me more likely to a "when" not "if" scenario. So now i'm expected to spend $1500 on a paint job that will likely be ruined on top of knowing there are engineering issues already? why would any sane person do that? Am I frustrated, yes. Does legendary need to be handled with kid gloves at almost 5 months in, no viable product and denying to execute the proper repairs? Not in my book man. That is a LOT of dough for a product that seems to be destined to fail.

so you can see what i'm referencing, my communication to legendary on 6/14/18:

"Cheryl,

This will be my last attempt at communicating with legendary. My last two emails have gone unresponded to. You’ve asked for the case to be dropped with Amex but have offered no definitive resolution of all the issues presented related to your product.

On June 9, 2018 you stated on a public forum:

'Our production plans are to change to cast bottoms which will facilitate Blind threaded attachments. We will also be changing the cap to a twist lock style with a new style filler well which will include blind threads'

Coupled with the incorrect use of non submersible gas lines, these repair items are absolutely necessary.  

I am clearly requesting that exactly these safety & quality control issues that my engineer/mechanic pointed out to you (at his time and expense) be handled on the tank purchased from you. This will be our 3rd attempt to get a proper product from you. This is turn needs to be handled within a 2 week period. If you are unable or unwilling to comply with what you have already acknowledged as necessary product amendments, please clearly state this. I will assume a non-response indicates an intention not to resolve the issue and repair the tank to reasonable safety and combustible fuel engineering standards"

Legendary's response after multiple attempts:

"Jesse,

In response to your request for resolution of your tank problem:

 Our offer was and still is to replace the fuel lines with “submersible” lines at our expense, including shipping.

Due to the Pending case we cannot take any action or communicate with you at this time.

That is the reason I asked you to drop the case"

My response:
"So you are not willing to address the other quality control issues that you’ve decided to change in fabrication moving forward?

Specifically:
“Our production plans are to change to cast bottoms which will facilitate Blind threaded attachments. We will also be changing the cap to a twist lock style with a new style filler well which will include blind threads”

Legendary's final response:
"No comment at this time."

so basically, drop the case with amex, we won't promise to do all the work right and you may or may not get the correct product in the end. yeah, no thanks.  
 

agreed, i do not like the aesthetics of those tanks

you provided no such thing with either tank i received.

Again, not accurate. Nick posted about his findings on 5/31/18 . . . I wrote you the following on 5/30/18 (you responded 3 days later):

"Well Cheryl,

We just can’t seem to get any traction here. Just got this back from my mechanic:

'Tank examined.

Something on the fuel pump assembly is touching the inside of the tank, not sure what or where.

Screw holes for the fuel pump assembly are not blind, so 6 potential leaks there. 4 screw holes for the cap are not blind, as well.

Vent and overflow lines inside the tank are normal 30R7 rated hose, which will fail when immersed in gasoline 24/7/365. Unfortunately, said lines are permanently installed, no way to replace them with immersion rated hose.

The liability exposure is horrendous, I cannot install this tank.'"

lol, and after all that the price went up 25%?!?!?!? man, that's funny. from $1995.00 to $2,495.00 [laugh]

http://www.legendary-motorcycles.com/newalloytankseats.html

So what's the outcome in the end? Consumer claim and refund?

Nothing so far. Had to resubmit my claim with Amex as I did something wrong in submission via their website. In the interim I reached back out to legendary and proposed that I would be willing to pay for them to just put blind nuts in the damn thing. Cheryl agreed to get me a quote and get back. Over a week later and 3 attempts to communicate I received the following:

"On Jul 12, 2018, at 12:21 PM, legendarycheryl@comcast.net wrote:

Jesse,

We will replace the fuel lines as they are not submersible. We will not make any changes to the Tapped Holes as they are not defective. That is the way that tank is made. It is being offered as you have it at the price you paid. There is nothing wrong with the configuration or quality of that version of the Monster tank. We will continue to sell this version at $2495.00.



However we are developing and offering an upgraded version of the Monster Tank, that will include a New Quarter Twist Cap, All Blind Threaded Holes throughout, New Style Bottom. The price is $2,695.00.



If you would like to upgrade we will give you credit for your tank. You will need to place an order and wait in line with the other customers who have placed orders for the version with the new options.



Best Regards,
Cheryl
orders@3Dprint2form.com

Legendary-motorcycles.com"

I responded:
"So the price difference between the tank I bought and the “upgraded” version is $200, correct?"

Lengendary responded:
"You paid $1,995.00 for your tank. The credit would be $1,995.00. The tank version with options is $2,695.00

The difference is $700.00."

I responded:
"I’m not paying an arbitrary rate hike plus an upgrade Cheryl. That makes zero sense.  I would think after all this time you’d want to make it right. Happy to pay the difference between the two tanks but to pay a higher fee for a tank I already bought is absurd.

In an effort to be done with this Cheryl, I will reluctantly meet you guys half way at $350 for the full blind but tank. I think that is more than reasonable given the 5 months this has been going on. If not, at least I can say I made an effort to put an end to it. Your call."

That last email was on Thursday 7/12/18 with no response. I won't even add commentary and ask if I'm out of my mind or does my offer not seem reasonable at this point? I don't even know anymore, seriously. Would you all feel ok paying 25% more plus an upgrade price?

Looks like a very reasonable attempt by yourself to resolve it. They should have just fixed it all for free, given you the upgrade and a sweetener thrown in and left you singing their praises, but they clearly don't see business the way I do.

Indeed reasonable.  To me, $350 sounds like a good compromise, but you should be in front of the line.  Five months time served.  Just my 2 cents.

Wait a minute. Does CNC=waterjet?

I only ask, because if so I have a CNC 848/S4rs flange in the raw. It was waterjet cut. I actually have two. One was installed in an aluminum tank (that looks nothing like a Monster tank). It has studs to mount the fuel pump flange.

The Monster tank on the Legendary page with the round flange looks waterjet cut to my untrained eye.

so i've been informed by legendary (not amex) that my cc company has sided in my favor and will return the $. i'm yet to hear this from amex. however, i did attempt again to offer the compromise price/resolution and it was declined again. legendary would actually make more money this way - take the tank back (the 'lesser model') sell it for their now $2500 price tag, take $350 from me for the 'upgraded model' with no "through" holes (really the only one they should offer) and they would have $2850 for a tank they are charging $2700 for. but, i guess not all people see math and business the same way. either way, i'll be glad to be done with them and will put an order in for the japanese beater tank!

this has been one of the worst customer service/product experiences i have had. i'm shocked at how this was handled by legendary.

can you confirm that all holes are blind on this tank itsamonster? they appear to be as any tank should but i feel like thats a question we have to ask now  [laugh]

They don't make sense.

"There's nothing wrong w our tank".
"New tank will have the things customer complained about". [roll]

They should have given you the new model, free of charge.
Their 700$ loss is nothing compared to the bad PR
they made here.

craziest response i've ever seen. very strange but i can't give it another minute.

received a reply from Beater Japan, unsurprisingly:
"Thank you very much for your inquiry.
Regarding your question, all the holes in the tank are blind holes, not straight through to the inside of the tank."

so at least there is a solution to not having a good replacement at all. i'll be ordering one as soon as I know i'm free and clear of this other nonsense.

I stuck the iphone inside the Beater tank. The rounded bit is the rear of blind thread hole from fuel pump flange.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/35lvtk7.jpg)
And a few more pics
(http://i66.tinypic.com/qnahwn.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/28k1f6.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/e0o138.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/1zn5vk0.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/9bdx12.jpg)

Thx for doing that. I’m gonna order one. Finish looks much better than legendary too. And no holes straight into where the gas goes   [laugh]

No problem. Glad it’s a help.
One thing to note is, i got a choice of fuel filler styles. Either sticking with standard type filler cap or going with beaters own. My conclusion was to stick with standard type, just in case there was a problem in the future, it would be easier to scource a replacement. Will probably never happen, just being cautious.

After being lied to by legendary and told the cc complaint had landed in my favor, I sent the tank back to them only to find that the matter had never been settled. Surely my fault for not checking first. Legendary had their tank and my money and stopped responding to me. This is an outfit I wouldn’t have build me a kickstand after all this. Going to buy a beater tank today. Stay far away from legendary unless you have a high threshold for BS and subpar products. 

No recourse with the cc company?

 >:(

To do that when they could make it right (sort of) is absolutely disgraceful conduct on their part. Beyond low.

Now they’ve been caught out on this forum, the place that could have been a decent source of business.

Terribly disappointing.

I feel for you Mate.

Yep, they are off my vendor list

More than fair enough.

Just ordered one up myself, glad they do the ie as well. thanks for the info

Wow. People asked fair and respectful questions and this is the outcome. Amazing how Legendary snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, as they could have made good for their customer and brand out of this, but they blew it. I'd be calling my lawyer. Beater wins big time.
Maybe Chris will make some 18 Litre Monster tanks for '93 - 2005 models.

I threatened legendary with legal recourse and ALL OF A SUDDEN, the case was settled next day. Coincidence I’m sure.

 [thumbsup]

This reminds me very much of an expensive tool purchase I once made where massive problems were brushed off and I was always portrayed to be the foolish amateur in contrast to their professional god like status.
I never asked or wanted anything other than the item they claimed to sell. Mine also ended with CC intervention. I'm sure my returned 600 lb tool was retrofitted, repaired and sold as new to someone else, just as your tank will be.

This whole thread.. Very duly noted and appreciated.
They have lost SO many customers. I came about this thread from another forum, talking about the likelihood of an aftermarket S2R/S4R tank being commissioned by CA Cycle if we get enough people to sign up..
The stealth prod in the direction of the Japanese beater tank is very interesting..
I can see from the finish that considerable more care is taken with them.

Is there a direct link to the beater site?

https://beater-japan.com/?cat=25

@breaddrink,
What does that mean,

‘ the stealth prod in the direction of the japanese beater tank is very interesting ‘ ?

What the heck does "Hair Lined" mean?

Thin clear coat?

Tank lined?

Cheryl...or whatever your name really is...

your posts were removed yesterday, and again today...

for two reasons.

One...

You're not a sponsor of this forum, nor will you ever be. You can't advertise your product here. We allowed you to defend your position, and to be frank...you did a terrible job.

Two...

You insult us in claiming you focus on customer service. This entire thread is about how poor your customer service actually is. You continue to demean one of our administrators, and I will not allow that. It is simply a continuation of your treatment of your customers.

Please don't post again on this forum.

Apologies to the OP, but this horse is dead...topic locked.