Ducati Monster Forum

I rode to work no problem. After work it didn’t seem to want to start, it cranked OK but struggled to fire up. It finally did, and I rode most of the way home and stopped at a convenience store. After a 5 minute stop the bike wouldn’t start and I assumed the battery was dead.

A new battery was installed and now I cannot get the bike to turn over at all. I get an audible “click” from the “starter contactor”, or “remote switch” part number 397.4.005.1A.

So at work the bike would roll over but it seemed sluggish; I don’t recall if it ever turned over at the convenience store, but it certainly tried to. I got a hell of a lot more action there than I have since I have installed the new battery.

Thoughts?

Mark

Was the battery charged before installation?  They discharge while sitting in the store.  Was the old battery load tested?  You could have high resistance in the starting circuit.

I had a couple of days before I picked up the battery so I called the dealer in advance so they could have the battery charged up. When I picked it up they said it was all set to go.

I did not have the old battery load tested; I thought about that a bit today (actually having BOTH of them checked) and I am now kicking myself for not getting that done.

Mark

The questions were to create a starting point.  Sometimes You gotta do what you gotta do at the time.  Battery was a logical step.  If tho old one was over four years old you were about due anyway.

To save typing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry68G0C2Fyc

Yes this is for a car, but it works for bikes.

Thanks Howie, I am off to prod around with my multimeter.

On a related note, I cannot disconnect my tank from the bike. I cannot remove the "flange cover" to access the quick releases for the fuel lines.

 (http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii44/mhanis-colt/Stuck%20nut.jpg) (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/mhanis-colt/media/Stuck%20nut.jpg.html)

The circled nut will not turn independently from the bolt, or rather the bolt itself is turning with the nut. I have the other one loosened but whatever is supposed to hold the bolt in place, isn't. I squirted the bolt with a bit of break-free to see if that would help but it didn't.

Any suggestions on that without boogering up the threads or leave well enough alone since I don't NEED to remove at this point?

Mark

After probing with the multimeter. I cleaned all of the connections at the battery and starter just to be safe anyway.

Checking the battery at the posts I got 12.58
Pushing the start button it dropped to 12.36
When I went from the negative battery post to a ground I got -12.43 (negative number because of which lead was where, right?)
When I checked the positive battery post to the started post it read -12.31 that changed to -.9 with the starter button pushed. Is that where my problem is?

Just for grins I reattached the old battery and while I didn't measure everything it acted the same way.

Mark

That bolt, common problem.  If I remember correctly the bolt goes into a rivnut that is spinning.  I think, you hahe two choices, for later, getting the bike to start is more important.  Try downward pressure first.  If that doesn't work, drill the head off.  Befor anything, search on this board to see what others have done to fix the problem.  I'm also thinking Speeddog knows about this

If you reverse the leads you will get a negative reading.  Before condemning the starter you want to perform two more checks.  You might have high resistance at the starter connection.  Is there voltage drop at the starter connection?  One lead to the connector on the starer end of the negative cable, the other on the stud.  Hit the starter button.  High resistance still there?  clean connection.  Caution:  Be careful, it is easy to break the lug inside the starter.  Alternative is battery direct to the starter.  Starter turns, starter is good..  Caution here too, you are bypassing all safeties, so make sure the bike is in neutral.  You also want to rule out a seized engine, though it is most likely fine.  Remove spark plugs,  with the rear wheel in the air, put the bike in gear and see if the engine spins by turning the rear wheel.

Before I start doing stupid shit I want to make sure I am clear. To connect the battery directly to the starter to check it I will NOT have the batter attached to the motorcycle battery leads at all, correct? Then using my car jumper cables I'll connect one end to the positive battery terminal and the other end to the starter post where it is connected to the bike electrical system. At that point, as soon as I make a connection the starter SHOULD start cranking, regardless of the position of the key or anything else.

Does that sound right?

Do I need to ground the negative battery terminal to the bike?

I am skipping the bolt issue for now.

Yore help is greatly appreciate Howie!


Mark

You can just take your jumper cable and go from positive on the bike battery to the starter lug.  If you choose to use the car battery, negative to bare metal on the starter or a good ground.  Car not running.  No need to disconnect the bike battery.

Understood. I'll use the bike battery. I'll try it this evening and report back.

Mark

After talking this through with a guy at work I have an understanding of what I am doing by testing these different points along the starting system. Armed with knowledge I hit the bike with my multimeter again. I get 12.5ish between the two battery posts. Between the negative battery post and INTO the relay I get the same 12.5ish. When I press the starter button I get about the same coming OUT of the relay.

Now the wire coming OUT of the relay is the same wire that attaches directly to the starter, right? I get the same reading at the end of that wire where it goes into the starter.

So I sounds to me like everything is working up to the starter. I tried connecting the starter directly to the battery and just got a single bit of movement/sound from the starter, but only once.

Does this point to the starter? If my starter was "dying" last week would it have given my the symptoms I experienced, like the battery was weak?

Mark

From what I can read, either your starter is  "stuck" or the magnets are gone[sorry, translating directly from Spanish] or as you say, the starter has said  "boobye"  . . .

Now, if you push start the bike, will it start? What voltage do you get at battery in idle?

Sounds like the starter.  I have to say sounds like because this is the internet.  You might want to try cleaning the connection at the motor first.  Then try running it out of the bike. 

A lot cheaper than the dealer:
https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/

I appreciate the responses guys. Unfortunately all of this is going to be put on the back burner for a couple of weeks as we are headed out on vacation this weekend and I am simply running out of time.

I'll post up when we get back with any updates.

Thanks again fellas!

Mark

These bikes are very picky with regards to grounding. I remember a time when I took the battery out to change it and when I hooked it back up, I connected a ground meant for the ECU to the main ground. The situation you're having now sounds very similar to mine. Check your ground locations.

Thanks for the tip Nakid, but I am a bit confused; check my ground locations for what? To make sure they are clean? What do you mean that you connected the ground wrong? When I changed that battery I took 2 bolt out of the old battery and installed 2 bolts on the new battery; how could that (did that) change your ground locations?

Mark

On mine, when I disconnected the battery, for what even reason (can't really remember, it was about 12 years ago) I had to remove the ground wires as well.

Ok fellas, vacation is over and I am back to farting with my bike.

I have pulled the spark plugs and turned the engine over so now I know it isn't seized. I tried connecting the started directly to a battery again and got nothing but sparks, nothing from the starter. Just to satisfy myself I tried "testing" the starter on my Suzuki to make sure I was doing it right and sure enough I got a reaction from that starter.

So at this point I am draining the oil, pulling the crankcase cover and removing the starter, right? I have the workshop manual to walk me through the steps.

Mark

I heard there was a bunch of 1100 starters from an alternative supplier that were prone to failure. What brand starter is it? If possible get a Denso or quality aftermarket replacement like  Rick's, Electrex, Motowheels.

I suspect I'll to remove it to see the manufacturer, Howie posted a link to Rick's for me previously.

Mark

Thankfully, it's not technically difficult just a pita.

You did make sure you have a good ground?  Voltmeter from negative battery post to a bolt or unpainted area on starter.  Attempt to start engine.  You should read less than 1/2 volt.

I'll do that when I get home Howie.

Mark

I get about 10v when I touch my leads to the negative battery post and the starter itself and I press and hold the start button.

What is that telling me? Bad ground?

Mark

If you've got a 10v drop from the starter body to the negative battery terminal when you hit the starter button, yes, you've got a bad ground between the battery and the engine.

You tested the starter with direct power or did I miss that?

I did test the starter directly and got nothing.

I'll check the battery ground this evening.

Mark

Sorry guys, I am a dumbass.

When I check the negative battery post to the starter it reads 10MV not 10V.  [bang]

I was just put there re-checking everything including the juice into the starter and it was when doing that back to back that I noticed the little "m" that I missed last night.

So that means 1/10th of a volt?

By the way, I went ahead and removed the negative battery ground and cleaned everything up just to do it.

Mark

10 mV is 1/100 of a volt, essentially zero in this situation.

OK, ground no longer a suspect.

I've seen a shifter claw spring break, and the little bit of wire got jammed in the starter gears.

I've seen the idler gear seize on the shaft.

Roached starter seal, starter oiled up.

All of those, you need to remove the alternator cover.

10-4 Speed. And I tried to get on here and correct my mV guess, it dawned on me that it must be 1/100th, not 1/10th, but you were too fast for me!

Mark

Since you got nothing when you hooked power directly to the starter, I thought you mentioned you were going to pull it. Have you pulled it and tested it with direct power off the bike yet?

Pulling the started off is the next step. I wanted to make sure everyone here was satisfied that I had tested it seven ways to Sunday before I pulled it apart.

Mark

I have the oil draining but I have a couple of questions regarding the removal of the crankcase cover. I have the workshop manual but it isn't really clear to me:

1. The wires coming out of the stator, will I disconnect those from the crankcase cover itself or should I disconnect the other end and leave the wires attached to the crankcase cover?

2. Will I need the special tool (88713.1749) that is supposed to attach to the vacant spot left by the removal of the center cap or can I manipulate the cover off without it?

Mark

 

The wires can stay with the cover. If you disconnect anything do it at the connector end.

You need the puller.

A generic cheap steering wheel puller like this  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Powerbuilt-Heavy-Duty-Steering-Wheel-Puller-Kit-648645/203120744?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CB%7CBase%7CD25T%7C25-31_GARAGE%2FAUTOMOTIVE%7CNA%7CPLA%7c71700000034362730%7c58700003947733505%7c92700031998221531&msclkid=13d701e77913150db9d25a7fe5260708&gclid=CIHus6zWtN0CFZOWswodfiILSQ&gclsrc=ds&dclid=CLf2063WtN0CFQhODAodrkEDiw  will work.  You might need to buy proper screws.

Thanks for the link Howie but I have one on the way from Monsterparts.

Mark

Didn't know Jeff sold starters.  I'm sure whatever he sells is quality.

You mis-understood; I got the puller from Jeff...……

Mark

Doh!

Well boys, it is a done deal; after many delays, procrastinations, other household duties and a vacation, my starter is removed from the bike.

Just a quick note, I changed the title of this thread to more directly reflect what I am doing.

So my question now is; What is my next step? Do I bother bench testing it or do I contact the folks that Howie left links to and send it in to get rebuilt? Is there another option.

To be honest I am not convinced that I would have tackled this if I had known what I was in store for. I have a certain level of self satisfaction that I have gotten this far but I have serious concerns about getting everything put back together and not having any left over parts (a la Greg Brady).

Oh, another thing; I was rather expecting to see a gasket and there isn't one, but there appears to have been some liquid gasket material that was applied to at least parts of the crankcase cover, what is the story there?

I am going to watch the MotoGP race and take a break.

Mark

Ducati doesn't use a cover gasket, they use a sealer...not sure about the starter.

If you choose to use a gasket, I think ca-cycleworks sells one, you'll need to check the gap on the sensor that screws to the cover.

Go with the sealer.  I suggest Threebond Liquid Gasket 1184, used by most OEMs, usually replacing Three with Yama or whatever.  Forgot what Ducati calls it.  Hard to find?  Any quality automotive silicone sealer will be fine.

Yes, bench test the starter.

My brushes are shot; confirmed by an actual mechanic.

I am off to see if I can find a "re-build" kit, right?

*Edit* I called Ricks and they do not sell re-build kits; but if I send mine in they'll repair it and send it back to me. I hate to be the dumb-ass that is too lazy to Google their own shit, but I AM a dumb-ass when it comes to this stuff; is there a place that might/does sell a rebuild kit?

As an aside, I am not happy that my starter quit working, but I am relieved that now I know that it was the problem. I had nightmares last night of the mechanic telling me "There is nothing wrong with this starter"!!!

Mark

https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/starter-for-1000-1100-1198-1200-ducati-monster-motorcycle-2008-2011.html

Too good to be true or go for it?

Rick's quoted me $250ish to repair mine and send it back to me. With that in mind the above link sounds too good to be true.

Mark

There's a repair place here that re-did a starter for about that $ for one of my customers here recently, I'll get some info if I can.

Well, I bought the new (non-oem) starter from DB Electrical. Now begins the arduous task of getting everything put back together.

I'm sure it'll take me several days as (like everyone else) I cannot focus on one thing at a time; too much other shit going on, like work.

Wish me luck!

Mark

 [thumbsup]

Do not overtighten the positive wire on the starter!
It is isolated from the cover via a plastic (maybe bakelite) washer.
Brake it and you may shortcircuit starter.
Don`t worry, just have this in mind and all will be good.

Hi Guys,

I'm back at it after a couple of business trips, a personal trip and some procrastination.

The new starter arrived some time ago and after a couple of attempts for the life of me I cannot get that GD starter back into place properly! I cannot get the splines to line up with the gears and get the right side of the starter to fit into place where the bolt goes into the back (right) side of the starter.

If there is someone who has done this; am I missing something obvious? I don't have to do anything radical like remove the gears to get the starter in place then replace the gears, do I? I just cannot understand how I got the old one out (with some twisting and turning) but I cannot get the new one in no matter what I do!!

I have checked the two starters out and they are the same.

Any suggestions?

Mark

Are you sure the little cog on the new starter is a match? You can reuse the little cog on the old starter and transfer it to the new starter. The cog on the new starter may not fit the existing gear set. They did change between models and will swap out via a circlip.
Its a good practice to keep the matching set in service even if the new gear is a theoretical match.

After a long pause of not working on my bike I am finally back at it. It seems I have to pull the starter motor idler gear to get the new starter into place properly. So question: Does anyone know if I can pull the idler gear AND its shaft without removing the flywheel-alternator assembly or is that an absolute must?

Mark

You *may* not need to remove the flywheel stuff.

Is the idler gear held on the shaft by a snapring or a bolt with large washer?

The gear itself is held in place by a circlip then the shaft is unscrewed using an allen wrench.

Mark

OK, different from the HYP1100 motor I've got apart now....

The early setup allowed accessing the two internal starter bolts through holes in the idler gear, I think that's what you've got.

The HYM1100 parts, you must remove the idler gear because you can't get the bolts out through the holes.

(https://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii44/mhanis-colt/20181128_195537.jpg) (https://s261.photobucket.com/user/mhanis-colt/media/20181128_195537.jpg.html)

Yeah, I think I'm screwed. Looking at the schematic I am sure the flywheel will have to come off to get the starter gears out. I removed the circlip and the bolt but there isn't enough room to get the gears out with the flywheel in place. If I could slide the "intermediate gear pin" out of the center of the starter gears I think I'd be golden, EXCEPT that pin is flanged on the back side and will only come out after the gears are removed.

Shit.

Mark

That pic is perfect.

What's making you need to take the starter gear off?

I don't have enough room to manipulate the starter to get it into position and lined up properly. It is really hard to explain but there are 3 bolts on the engine side and a 4th bolt into the starter on the back side. It is the backside that is giving me grief, I simply cannot get it aligned. If the gear set is removed I'd have all the space I need to get the starter in, then the gears can easily be put back into place, but all of that requires the removal of the flywheel.

Sorry for the late reply, I somehow missed your response Dog.

Mark

Hmmm, OK, I've got a HM1100 motor needs attention here, I'll see what the deal is.

No worries on the reply.  [beer]

If you take those oil lines off at the crankcase, it should give you room.

Maneuver the starter motor with the lug rotated forward, once it's plugged in, rotate the starter motor into position for the 'lug' bolt.

You are the winner Speeddog, thank you!! It turns out I wasn't turning the starter in the wrong direction enough to get it into place. Removing the bottom oil cooler line gives enough clearance to maneuver the thing. Removing the starter gear set is not necessary at all.

Now the arduous task of putting it all back together.

Thanks for the help Dog, et al!!

Mark

Odd situation, early bikes it's no issue on install.
Ducati changed some stuff and created problems, big shocker there.

The HM1100 engine has a hollow pin, long bolt and big washer.
Of course there's no threads on the pin, and it's flush with the gear, so it doesn't come out easy at all.

So to put a bow around this saga, the starter is in and the bike is back up and running! I took it out yesterday for a shake down ride and everything seems normal!

I appreciate everyone's help here.

One last question: Should I put Blue Loctite on all of the crankcase bolts? I used Red on all of the internal bolts bit I am wondering about the external ones.

Thank again everyone!

Mark