Ducati Monster Forum

I have spoken with the owner of CA Cycleworks about creating an OEM replacement fuel tank for us who suffer from ethanol swelling, and there's good news ahead. For those of you who dont know, we currently have four options:

ETI-FuelCel "Composite" unit at $1,500
Legendary Motorcycles Aluminum at $2,500
Beater Japan Aluminum at $2,800
these prices are all plus paint
then there is the OEM Ducati/Acerbis tank with the same problems for roughly $1,400, but at least thats painted

Now the obvious choice we would all like to make would be the Beater unit due to its solid reputation and no known QC/craftsmanship issues. That being said, i personally dont want to spend $3,000 on a tank for a $6,000 bike. While I have no intention of ever selling my S4RS, if i absolutely HAD to, my return on investment would be nearly zero. I knew CAC had successfully made rotary molded tanks for other models and has been a staple in the Ducati Community for many years, so last night under the influence of several Gin & Tonics, i reached out to Chris. To my surprise, I got a positive response.

So here's the meat & potatoes version:

NO MORE SWELLING/WARPING ISSUES
we need a minimum of 30, but preferably 50+ people
these tanks will have the OEM 2000-2008 Monster shape, but with whatever bottom your application calls for(from Carb'd to S4RS)
he is also considering an expanded bottom option for those without an airbox, effectively increasing volume and therefore range(im currently researching pod filters and will dyno the results, as i personally would LOVE more than 100mi on a tank)
initial pricing is at $699. if this works out, I can provide them pre-painted with OEM PPG paints for an additional $300-ish. note: this is for striped or solid colors. Tricolore need not apply unless someone is willing to send me a stock tank to use for reference

now, my involvement is simply that of approaching them about actually doing it, offering up some tanks(S2R and S4RS) for molding purposes, and being responsible for this group buy.

so there you have it. i dont really see any downsides. a used tank on ebay is $400-500, and unless you're pretty lucky, you still have to paint it. then, like me, you will be swapping it out every year and freaking out hoping you dont strip the oh-so-fragile fuel pump screws, and it will STILL swell. in this case you could buy an ethanol-safe plastic replacement for your bike and if you decide to sell, include the OEM which will probably be dried out by then.

there are literally thousands of people with these affected bikes, and they all suffer from the same stupid issue with fuel. if you're reading this, you probably either own one or know someone who does. lets spread the word and make it a reality...

[UPDATE 9-15]- i forgot to mention that the tanks that CAC currently produces are not paintable, but Chris is exploring options on coatings to allow them to be painted. this was a major oversight on my part, and for that i apologize. obviously these wouldn't be nearly as attractive if they weren't paint-matched, so this is a huge factor.

also, i have corrected my original post to be more specific on which "style" of tank would be produced, and thats the later 2000-2008 style that the plastic tanks were produced in.

this is reserved for known people willing to participate..

1: myself
2: myself
3: another forum member

There are 2 outside shapes, latest started in 2000... so it's to fit the later ones, yes?

The ethanol issue doesn’t affect my steel tank, but it’s awesome news for those that it does!

Well done for reaching out and well done CCW!

 [clap] well done

Chris' tanks can be painted now?

 [popcorn]

I'm interested, especially in the version with the expansion of volume.

I'm always willing to give  Chris more money. [thumbsup] His shop was a regular stop when he was In San Diego. He is a knowledgeable and helpful dude who cares about the products he puts out. Looking forward to more details on materials and paintability  vs his existing MTT, which is not paintable. I should also add, I would also be most interested in an expanded capacity tank.

[UPDATE 9-15]- i forgot to mention that the tanks that CAC currently produces are not paintable, but Chris is exploring options on coatings to allow them to be painted. this was a major oversight on my part, and for that i apologize. obviously these wouldn't be nearly as attractive if they weren't paint-matched, so this is a huge factor.

also, i have corrected my original post to be more specific on which "style" of tank would be produced, and thats the later 2000-2008 style that the plastic tanks were produced in.

His current colors (red, white and black) are enough.

I expect paint, wrap, dip and any other coloring method to be expensive and I'm sceptical about the quality. I can live well without the logo and one of my requirements, grip pads, can be fixed by Chris making them with built in Stomp Grip pads  8) So, paint isn't a must for me.

Do you know if he makes the molds from a tank and/or computer design? The added volume could come from adding ~20mm width and ~10mm height. No problems for those who don't want to convert to pods a.s.o.

Just a VERY rough calculation (comparing the tank with half a sphere) shows this to add over 5 liter.

AFAIK, the shape would be taken from a mold. adding width and height is tricky as you may run into interference problems with different handlebars. as for colors and finishes, i'm sure the bulk of us would prefer paint matching, and i personally wouldn't be interested if this were not an option.

Rotary molded polyethylene allows some vapor to escape through the surface. Any closed film, like paint or a wrap, would trap that vapor and cause the film to fail.

chris' tanks are not the best choice for painting. They excel in all other areas.

Perforated wrap  [thumbsup]  ;D

i appreciate your advice, and due to your username and reputation around here, i dont doubt your credentials. however, there MUST be a coating that can be applied to prevent this effect, albeit inside or outside the tank. i have reached out to a few chemical companies for insight and found one that successfully applies high-gloss finishes to Pe. whether or not this coating would be fuel/vapor safe is the next step...

When they say 'successfully applies', are they referring to initial adhesion, or long term durability?

I can get paint to stick to any plastic. The automotive refinish industry has had those chemicals for a long time. I can't guarantee it stick will for the long haul when vapor permissivity is involved.

Dirt bikes that use PE tanks have perforated decals applied to prevent trapping vapor if that's any clue.

im still going back/forth with them via e-mail and haven't found out about long term reliability yet or if they have a proprietary material/blend. Due to the language barrier im limited to e-mail only, so communication is kinda slow. i have to believe theres something we can put inside the tank to seal it and/or something on the exterior to make the paint stick, or something that can be blended with the media prior to molding, or heat treating, or something i dunno.

What does Chris say about this?

Chris told us a long time ago that his tanks weren't suitable for painting.

I know that. I was wondering what, if anything, he said this time.

There are one-piece covers for the 696 a.s.o. bikes....  Not cheap I'm sure, but might be a solution?

I don't know that he was asked...lately. ;D

As talented as he is, I don't think he can change the properties of polyethylene.

Does it stop gassing out at some point?

No. It has nothing to do with the plastic 'gassing out'. It has everything to do with the properties of polyethylene being vapor permissive.

Simply put, PE allows fuel vapor to pass through...forever. That's why Ducati chose a different plastic. PE wouldn't meet US EPA guidelines. It isn't a problem where ethanol fuel isn't used. I doubt ethanol fuel was tested by Ducati. Their switch back to other materials confirms this.

If it's the fuel vapors passing through, would some kind of coating like caswell's on the interior block it?

Probably.

My question is if the factory tank, and Chris' tank, require the same treatment where is the advantage other than the cost difference for replacement?

Exactly. The advantage for the hyper tank was massive increase in volume. Took the bike from less then 100 miles per tank to 275 ish. I wouldn't swap an aftermarket tank that has to be coated and can't be painted for a real monster tank that has to be coated but can be painted.

And I am the guy that started the hypermotard tank crowdfunding list. It took a lot of time, lots of reminders, and about half the list dropped out (didn't honor their commitment after he made the tank). I believe he requires funds up front now. So have fun with that.

actually, the fact that his current tanks are unpaintable was an oversight on my part prior to inquiring about production. Chris brought up the fact that he is experimenting with coatings that would allow them to be painted. i simply went a step further and reached out to some people at different coating manufacturers and polyethylene and polypropylene molders about different coating and/or blending options. if this can't ultimately be resolved, im sure the demand will drop to near zero.

you are absolutely right in that producing an aftermarket tank that has to be coated would be almost ignorant when ducati still sells new tanks that come pre-painted for about the same price as this would cost after paint. the difference would only be the lack of swelling/warping, and any associated volume increase due to different manufacturing processes and dimensions beneath the surface. while not many people run pod filters on EFI Monsters, this could/would be an option for those interested in doing so. these are all things that need to be considered, but not until the demand is there for an aftermarket OEM-shaped tank.

i admire your patience and determination in getting the HM tanks made. due to the fact that those would only work on one kind of bike, im sure you also ran into a lot of issues with getting people involved.   

what i/we are trying to accomplish here is a single shape of tank with different "bottoms" allowing the use on all plastic tank monsters from 2000-2008, covering the S2R and S4R range, and possibly providing a volume increase, and do so for $699 or less. i am well aware this is and will always be an uphill battle, but that wont stop me from trying. if i/we can resolve the coating issues, and provide a finished product that some owners can just slap on as-is or others can have a paint-matched solution for around a thousand bucks, i will be satisfied, and the production process can easily be reproduced dropping the prices for future purchases, helping to keep these bikes alive for years to come.

if this is a total failure, thats okay too. i WILL buy a Beater tank and keep riding my S4RS, and if this one dies, i'll take the tank with me to another one...

also, for what its worth, i have joined several facebook groups around the S2R and S4R community and contacted their admins about posting group buy info there, and have been approved thus far. just need the time to actually write it up, which i will do today or tonight. next i'll be taking to Reddit and researching web hosting.

thanks for your time

Good Job reaching back out to Chris to see if this can be done. Even with his move he is plugging right along with making his molds better and better. As our plastic tank Monsters get older I feel the demand is still there. I am in the same boat as you cmross13, I plan on never selling my S4RT. I will always have a list of things I want to do to it. A new tank is one of them even though my current one is not swelling (ty caswells). It does have some wrinkles at the knees though I plan on covering with TechSpec tank grips.

For me to be really interested I would need two main things.
1. Must be able to be painted or possibly wrapped.
2. Fuel Capacity would need to be higher.

Hopefully this all works out! My wallet for sure can't afford a beater tank right now.

hbliam, great to see you in here! (you might be a regular here now, but when I was - a decade ago, I don't think you were)  ;D

"Have fun with that" -- you don't know the half of it!! We did that with the MTS tank and a kickstarter-like website. Only their system had horrible accounting and we ended up having to ASK people if/when they paid and how much. And then the MTS tank became the Mountain of Pain which tested the will to live for all involved from that point forward. We delivered the pre-order tanks once we got our own rotational molding machine and I started making tanks with my own hands. Even more "have fun with that" is how we accepted loans from investors. I've kept my books and we are almost paid up on those. I've promised to pay back via the proceeds of MTS tanks sold but they're not selling enough to repay those investors. They've been getting paid back anyhow and all those will be completed in January. Before we can "have fun with" the new project, the old project shall be tied up and done. The move, folks stealing our belts, and two years without selling tanks had us in dire straits.

For this project, we will either do it like with the HM tank you led or a 3rd party will hold the $ in escrow. The "HM way" is we get folks' credit cards via orders on our site. They get authorized (but not charged) and then the sale gets captured when the order ships. Since money isn't as tight as before, we should be able to handle this next tank the HM way.

Thanks,
Chris

Yes, [thumbsup] to the above.


Getting a high gloss finish isn't a problem. Nor is getting paint to stick to our tanks ... before there's gasoline in them.

We are testing the concept of a lining. I've got a couple tanks sitting up as a first pass viability test.

Thanks,
Chris

this slowed down MUCH quicker than i had anticipated. for the thousands of us plagued by this stupid ethanol/Acerbis problem, i thought there would be 50 people lined up with cash in hand. i realize not everyone has the means to throw cash around like Uncle Luke, but for $699 i feel like this is a no brainer.

that being said, i CAN and WILL still spearhead this operation if the community responds positively. i will still even supply a tank for molding purposes and buy two of them! that being said, i AM working with a sheetmetal fabricator to modify two OEM steel tanks to accept an S4RS fuel pump/flange. whichever way works out, i will simply keep one or two and sell the other 4-6 off(i currently have three S4RS tanks and three M900ie tanks)   

you are obsessed with these tanks

not really obsessed, just tired of dealing with the swelling/swapping tanks on my S4RS. the reason i have three RS tanks is because my bike came with 1, i bought another to swap out annually, and a third kinda fell in my lap for $50 so i couldnt say "no"

as for the three M900 tanks, the winter project bike i bought came with two dented units and i bought a brand new OEM tank for it. i'll repair the old ones and paint them in OEM colors to resell and recoup some of my project expenses(will be a LOT of M900 parts for sale once im done. have a lot of parts piling up).

ive actually been considering selling all three of my RS tanks along with the two M900 units to get me half way to an RS Beater tank...

Was on the original DML "list", then the DML, then here. I've been here the whole time brother.

Yeah, getting people to pay is a big pain in the ass.

I think this tank will be a harder sell as it pretty much "must" be painted as it's part of the overall design. The hyper tank is not and a black plastic tank is fine on a hyper.

The belt theft sucked big time. I hope you went after them legally.

Yes, painting is very important, that is assured. I tried coating a tank and let it sit up for a couple months to measure weight loss via evaporation. The coated tank lost half the weight that the uncoated tank lost. Next will be to set up better controls for the test. Progression is from the more informal to the less informal with the hope of eventually paying for formal emissions testing. The "half less loss" is a step in the positive direction; however, I believe half is not enough for emissions but might be enough sealing for paint to stick.

Who's got money for harassment lawsuits? Definitely not me. They cheated us fair and square.  [thumbsdown]

Thanks,
Chris