Need advice (legal)!

ducpenguin · August 18, 2008, 06:53:58 AM

So there I was...Friday night leaving work, preparing for a beautiful ride home...and for the most part it was; until I saw the lights flashing behind me...Yikes!
So this is where the advice portion comes in...I will try to recreate what happened. If anyone is familiar with Clifton this may make more sense. I was traveling south on Main St. through the town and continued south on Kincheloe Rd. toward Yates Ford Rd.

Well there is a stop sign at Main and Clifton Rd. where an unmarked Fairfax Co.

was sitting as I rolled through it. Here is where it gets a little crazy...Once I made it through the stop sign, I pretty much got on the throttle to enjoy the twisties that were coming my way. It is a fairly quiet road with no children or cars, so it is somewhat safe to go a little faster than posted. Well, I come up on a vehicle doing the speed limit and slow down giving plenty of gap, and then he rolls up on me. I pull over on Yates Ford and give him the absolute respect that most deserve and he asks if I know why he pulled me over...I said I was unsure and he says that I ran the stop sign and was doing 70 in a 35. He said that he was unable to see me although he caught an occasional glimpse, yet he was able to pace me.
Here is my issue and concern...1- if anyone has ever ridden that strech...have you ever been able to fathom doing 70 on it...I know that my skill level wouldn't allow it, not to mention the bike itself...2- He was in an unmarked Dodge Stratus...that would mean that he not only did 70 to pace me, but would have had to accelerate to appx. 90 to catch me from a dead stop...3- Does anyone know the difference between "reckless general" and "reckless - citing an actual offence"?
I am pretty sure I am going to need a lawyer...and I KNOW THAT I WAS WRONG...just looking for any advice from any that may have been in a similar situation or has knowledge of VA law.
Thanks for looking it over...I am actually going to post in the other forum as well...but figured folks that live in the area would be my biggest pool of credible information.
Chuck

Duc and Cover · August 18, 2008, 07:42:55 AM

If he's having to do 90 to catch up to you without his sirens on and without calling in an official chase like they are supposed to do, then it sounds a lot like the behavior that caused the deadly accident on the beltway last year when the cop said he was trying to catch up with a mystery black sportbike. But he could just say he paced you at 70 and then caught up with you when you got stuck behind the car. It would be tough to prove you weren't going that fast because the judges tend to believe the cops unless you have some really solid evidence to the contrary. Good luck though.

ducpenguin · August 18, 2008, 08:11:27 AM

Quote from: Duc and Cover on August 18, 2008, 07:42:55 AM
If he's having to do 90 to catch up to you without his sirens on and without calling in an official chase like they are supposed to do, then it sounds a lot like the behavior that caused the deadly accident on the beltway last year when the cop said he was trying to catch up with a mystery black sportbike. But he could just say he paced you at 70 and then caught up with you when you got stuck behind the car. It would be tough to prove you weren't going that fast because the judges tend to believe the cops unless you have some really solid evidence to the contrary. Good luck though.

Thanks...with any luck, I will be able to get him to say that he didn't have a solid view of me like he stated once I was pulled over. I am certain that I was not doing 70...55 maybe, but I can't go that fast on those roads. I even took pictures of my chicken strips...you would have to be doing some serious knee dragging and oh yea by the way...the roads were damp.

Stick · August 18, 2008, 09:44:34 AM

I was the rearmost of 3 bikes going north of 55 mph when we passed a VA stae trooper running radar. He took off after us, then passed me to pull the first bike and then the rest of us over. He said he'd gotten me on the radar @ 65 and had clocked me as high as 70 but since he was in chase mode he couldn't use that and wrote me for 65 in a 55. So it would seem if he had to run that hard to pull you, on a curvy road, he'd have no idea how fast you were going and couldn't use it anyway. Also if he starts from a dead stop then he's going to have to go faster than you, no matter what your speed, in order to overcome the distance you covered before he got started.

potomacduc · August 18, 2008, 11:33:55 AM

Get a lawyer. The way it works in VA is that it is not so much about the law as it is about the relationships between members of the bar. You need to pay to benefit from those relationships. Give a lwayer some cash and get the ticket reduced.

If you're ticket was "reckless-general" than this is even more true. As I understand it, that ticket basically says the officer thought you looked reckless, so therefore you were. He does not have to cite a specific offense and therefore the level of evidence is reduced. The speed estimates and other testimony are simply increase the plausibility fo the officer's perception. They don't have to be 100% accurate, just realistic. Proving that they are totally unrealistic is very hard. By doing so, you will be showing that the officer is either flat out lying or incompetent in his ability to judge speed etc. The judge will not be happy going in either of those directions and he won't unless you have overwhelming evidence.

I am not a lawyer and not really an expert, but I have fought 4 tickets on my own in 3 states,so I do have a bit of a feel for this. I have "won" twice and had the charges dismissed, had the ticket reduced to a non-moving violation once and lost once. The ticket I lost was the first one I fought and it was a "Too fast for conditions" ticket in MI, a ticket type similar to (but less severe than) a "reckless general". It came down to the judge having to believe two officers with decades on the force but no evidence or to him believing an 18 year old kid. After telling me that my version of events sounded more plausible than the officers' he told me that he was sorry but for the system to work, he has to trust the judgment of two experienced officers unless there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The fact that this was my third ticket in about 18 months probably didn't help my cause.

I haven't fought a ticket in VA but I have a couple of friends who between them have fought three. They both got lawyers and even though they paid over $1,000 each time, they both were happy they did.

Get a lawyer and good luck.

ducpenguin · August 18, 2008, 01:01:59 PM

Thanks for the input...
Stick...I have to agree; there was no way he caught up to me that fast from a dead stop in the any type of vehicle if I was doing 70, physics won't allow it.
Potomac...I have fought tickets in the past and had good luck, but this one is beyond me...I agree to the fact that I need a lawyer, if for nothing else...the network it provides. It was a "reckless general", so he doesn't need as much proof. I can only hope to get it reduced to running a stop sign or something like that. Luckily I have +3 or 4 points on my license...
Ughhh...I have always heard to never go fast on the straight roads and wait for the twisties...hmphhh.

ducless · August 18, 2008, 07:13:39 PM

Not just any lawyer, find a lawyer that does alot of work in the particular court you'll be at. He/She will have a working relationship with the judges. For best results: sit in on a couple court hearings to see how the judges address the laywers and approach a lwayer after court. Not that I have ANY experience with the VA traffic court system.................

potomacduc · August 18, 2008, 07:27:44 PM

Quote from: ducless on August 18, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
Not just any lawyer, find a lawyer that does alot of work in the particular court you'll be at. He/She will have a working relationship with the judges. For best results: sit in on a couple court hearings to see how the judges address the laywers and approach a lwayer after court. Not that I have ANY experience with the VA traffic court system.................

Excellent advice. When you are watching the proceedings and you say to yourself "I bet that guy plays golf with the judge" you've found your lawyer.

ducpenguin · August 19, 2008, 09:42:11 AM

Quote from: ducless on August 18, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
Not just any lawyer, find a lawyer that does alot of work in the particular court you'll be at. He/She will have a working relationship with the judges. For best results: sit in on a couple court hearings to see how the judges address the laywers and approach a lwayer after court. Not that I have ANY experience with the VA traffic court system.................

Some of the best advice yet!!!!!!!!! Thank you!
Tim - I will get a Lawyer...this is a must!

Quote from: potomacduc on August 18, 2008, 07:27:44 PM
Excellent advice. When you are watching the proceedings and you say to yourself "I bet that guy plays golf with the judge" you've found your lawyer.

Agreed!

ducpenguin · October 21, 2008, 11:59:08 AM

Thanks for all of your help! Unfortunately, I was over my head at work and had to go and defend myself...Luckily, I am somewhat crafty when it comes to arguing a case...
I got off with "improper driving"! No reckless or running a stop sign!
Long story short - Chicken strips can be used as evidence

I had an engineer/mathematician develop a graph for me depicting lean angles at certain speeds...thus proving my bike had never seen those angles before...kinda...

Thanks again...
One last word of advice...if you have never taken an online driving course and your driving points are low...I would suggest taking one! It will put 5 points back on your license!

Duc Stamp · October 22, 2008, 07:30:31 AM

Glad it seems to have somewhat worked out for you.

Is there a way to see how many points, good or bad, we have on our license in VA?

This whole good points thing confuses me since I came from a state that only had bad points.

ducpenguin · October 23, 2008, 01:36:03 PM

Yea...it is pretty simple...here are the 2 ways I know how...
1. Sign up on the DMV website and get a pin number (should arrive in about 5 days) then you can check it online.
2. Go to DMV and buy one...this really doesn't take too long...I think they have dedicated lines for simple paperwork...I was in and out in less than 10 min.
The more positive points - max +5 - that you have, the more lenient a court will be.

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Need advice (legal)!