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Author Topic: Vinyl retrofit windows  (Read 1505 times)
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« on: October 02, 2009, 05:19:00 AM »

So we're finally replacing our circa 1976 windows in our house.

The place we're going to use sells Milgard and Simonton.  To me, they look identical, performance wise.  Simonton is cheaper.  Milgard is a name I've heard before.

Anyone have any opinions on either?  Strong reasons to not pick one over the other?


Thanks
Andy
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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2009, 05:43:57 AM »

Paging BP, BP to the thread...
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« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2009, 05:56:37 AM »

are you doing the work yourself?

#1 don't get sold on argon gas. it dissipates over time.

#2 the overall energy efficiency of the window is dependant on two things lo-e glass (the brand of lo-e does not matter), and the overall thickness of the insulated glass unit. The thicker the air gap between the two panes of glass, the better. Also...the thicker the panes of glass the better. So ask the sales person that stuff.

#3 I don't know about the Simonton brand, but Milgard has different grades or model lines. Some are cheaply made and cheesy, but because they say Milgard people think they are getting the quality line.

#4 Retro fit windows are easy to install, but a pain in the butt to measure correctly, if you are not doing the work yourself, make sure the person doing the install shows you work he's done in the past. The are lots of fly by night guys out there who think they can do the work but screw shit up by not measuring things right. also...make sure their bid includes everything including old window glass disposal, sealants, screws, interior trim and caulk. lots of guys add that shit on after the fact. Also ask what type of sealants they are using and make sure it made for sealing windows.

#5 ask about warranty specifics. most are all the same, but some cover more than others. If they say "lifetime" ask if it really says "limited lifetime" . Typical problems are broken locks and seal failures.

#6 after the install.... check all the frames inside and out, vinyl will crack when stressed, and sometimes the installer will screw a unit in a lil too deep, and crack the frame. It usually will happen at a corner. so check all inside and outside corners to see if they have hidden a crack with caulk. If the do/did...don't let them sell you on a vinyl repair.... demand  a new window.

#7 expect shit to be broken and have to be reordered. it happens to the best of installers. lots of stuff gets shipped damaged and the install get delayed because of things having to be reordered.

#8 retro fit windows  make the old window openings a lil smaller than when they started out, and old window building codes have changed.... make sure any windows being replace in bedroom meet the current building codes. If they don't, if the job is being inspected, they may fail you or, if you ever sell the house, you may get hit with it later when the home gets inspected then.

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« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2009, 06:01:14 AM »

oh... and one more thing

in the future...broken windows will now be super expensive to replace.

one glass unit...will cost you more to install that it cost for the entire window.....and thats not even including the labor  Shocked (it's the nature of the beast)
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 06:12:13 AM »

If you're replacing the windows to increase the house's efficiency, I would check the gap between the window jambs, head and sill and the framing.  In the 70's they typically left a void.  This void should be filled with insulation.  There are spray foams intended for doors and windows.  These foams are more flexible. 

Doesn't do you much good to replace the windows and leave a 1/2" uninsulated gap around the window.
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« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2009, 06:16:48 AM »

They are Soooooo worth it!  waytogo I can't remember off the top of my head the brand we had installed many years ago (I'm thinking Merced) but the transformation was stellar! You can have problems even with Lo-E if the seal is broken for any reason. The window will turn mottled and IZ_. I've had to have 2 units replaced for seal failure. Both were Lo-E and covered under my "lifetime" warranty, thank goodness. So I would def be looking for a good warranty. I used a company that was registered as a 5-star business with the BBB and got references from them for homes done in my area, then went and looked at a few of those homes to see how they were holding up and even went and knocked on the door and talked to some of the folks...
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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2009, 06:51:41 AM »

are you doing the work yourself?
Hell no.  Not that I couldn't, but if something goes wrong later I'd rather pick up the phone than pick up a hammer.

#1 don't get sold on argon gas. it dissipates over time.
Interesting.  The Milgard has a upgrade to the argon which qualifies it for a $1500 tax credit.  Without the argon, no tax credit.  Simonton has a promotion where the tax credit upgrade is free until today.  It's about a $900 upgrade on the Milgard Tuscany.  The Simonton line is called Impressions, not sure how much the upgrade is after today

#2 the overall energy efficiency of the window is dependant on two things lo-e glass (the brand of lo-e does not matter), and the overall thickness of the insulated glass unit. The thicker the air gap between the two panes of glass, the better. Also...the thicker the panes of glass the better. So ask the sales person that stuff.
The two we looked at both come standard with the Lo-E, but no idea about the glass thickness.

#3 I don't know about the Simonton brand, but Milgard has different grades or model lines. Some are cheaply made and cheesy, but because they say Milgard people think they are getting the quality line.
The Simonton is considerably less expensive and my first thought was "if it's less, it must not be as good."  Maybe not the case.

#4 Retro fit windows are easy to install, but a pain in the butt to measure correctly, if you are not doing the work yourself, make sure the person doing the install shows you work he's done in the past. The are lots of fly by night guys out there who think they can do the work but screw shit up by not measuring things right. also...make sure their bid includes everything including old window glass disposal, sealants, screws, interior trim and caulk. lots of guys add that shit on after the fact. Also ask what type of sealants they are using and make sure it made for sealing windows.
This shop has been in the same location for a long while.  I used to drive by the place every day going to work in college.. 15 years?

#5 ask about warranty specifics. most are all the same, but some cover more than others. If they say "lifetime" ask if it really says "limited lifetime" . Typical problems are broken locks and seal failures.
I'll check.

#6 after the install.... check all the frames inside and out, vinyl will crack when stressed, and sometimes the installer will screw a unit in a lil too deep, and crack the frame. It usually will happen at a corner. so check all inside and outside corners to see if they have hidden a crack with caulk. If the do/did...don't let them sell you on a vinyl repair.... demand  a new window.
good to know.

#7 expect shit to be broken and have to be reordered. it happens to the best of installers. lots of stuff gets shipped damaged and the install get delayed because of things having to be reordered.
Yeah, I've been through that with ceramic tile. 

#8 retro fit windows  make the old window openings a lil smaller than when they started out, and old window building codes have changed.... make sure any windows being replace in bedroom meet the current building codes. If they don't, if the job is being inspected, they may fail you or, if you ever sell the house, you may get hit with it later when the home gets inspected then.

The Simonton has a smaller profile frame which turned me onto it first.  But being an unknown company, I didn't want to jump at it.  The glass area on the Milgard is about 1" smaller all the way around.  I didn't realize it was a building code thing.
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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2009, 06:58:53 AM »

I'm pretty sure Simonton is the brand we had installed at my previous house.  They worked well, didn't have any problems with them (over the few years that I lived with them, don't know about longer term).
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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2009, 07:22:10 AM »

We just did our house, neither of those brands though. The building code issue comes into play in bedrooms. You need an escapable window. It needs to be 5.7 sf with min height no smaller than 24" (openable) and width of 20", if I recall right. Where that gets you is if you had a window that was 24" on one side before, and the retrofit frame will take a couple off... and then you're screwed. Also can't be more than 44" off the floor. We had to reframe one because of that.
http://www.egressescapewindows.com/pages/IRC_Code.html
There's something else about a percentage of floor area, but that wasn't an issue for us.
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2009, 08:42:34 AM »

Andy.... If you get back more on the energy rebate than you put in for the argon..... go for it. Just don't pay above and beyond for it. It does actually work in making the window more efficient... but like I said, it does go away over time (5 years from what I've been told my the mfg) That being said.... there is no way to actually test that the mfg put it in Wink

99.9 % of the time retro fits are installed by removing only the glass, and leaving the frames installed in the wall. when they do that.... the overall widow opening is reduced. sometimes (usually depending on the type of window originally installed), the installer plans on removing the entire window. The trim around the window covers either the old frame (when the original frame remains), or covers the gap from removing the old frame. In the case of bedroom windows, the minimum size the meets egress codes for an xo window (one that slides side to side) is 4040 (four foot by four foot), or for a sh (one that opens up and down) a 3050 (three foot by five foot). If the original window meets current egress codes and the frame is removed...a standard size 3050sh or standard size 4040xo will meet code. If the original frame remains, and they they meet code, the replacement window will be slightly smaller and will not meet egress code. So make sure the installer irons that all out and SIGNS a statement claiming that.


Ask to see a cut-away/ cross section of each brand.

thicker vinyl makes for a more efficent window, and one less likely to crack. Also.... the deeper the frame, the more likely the window is to have a thicker glass unit in it.

and..... you'll notice a sound differance before you see the a cooling/heat savings. Grin
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 08:44:54 AM »

also.... make sure they temper any windows that require it by law waytogo
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