2009 696 - very difficult cold starts

[Raux]

how is it one sensor? my ambient air temp is a lot lower than the engine temp (up to 300F)

sorry meant ambient air and the engine intake air sensor. engine temp has nothing to do with the cold start condition.

[metroplex]

oh ok, makes sense. I think it might be busted. The readings were odd at first and I didn't think much of it. Can you or anyone else verify that your air temp sensors are accurate or very close to actual air temp readings?

I don't recall the location of this sensor, I think it might be a pain to access.

[thought]

the air temp sensors on the new monsters/696 are notoriously inaccurate.  it's due to the fact that the sensor sits in between the two cylinders i believe.

normally they read way over the correct ambient air temp.

[Howie]

oh ok, makes sense. I think it might be busted. The readings were odd at first and I didn't think much of it. Can you or anyone else verify that your air temp sensors are accurate or very close to actual air temp readings?

I don't recall the location of this sensor, I think it might be a pain to access.

Thought is correct.  It is not that the sensor is inaccurate (assuming it works correctly)  It reads ambient temperature in the valley between the cylinders, in other words air intake temperature.  This is a computer input for starting and warm up operation.  On the 696 you get that reading on the dash also, but not on the 796 or 1100.  The reading will be high when sitting since the air is hot there.  The sensor in the vertical cylinder  measures a combination of oil and cylinder temperature.  This is also both a computer and dash input.  Cold start and warm up use both inputs to fuel mapping.

93 octane (US) is what Ducati specifies (the equivalent of whatever octane they listed in the manual). I'm not sure if our gas has ethanol, but the same gas works fine in my 1981 carbureted lawnmower.
<snip>

 

The manual states 95 RON (Research Octane Number).  In the US we use AKI (Anti Knock Index), which is an average of RON and MON (Motor Octane Number).  Unfortunately, the numerical average does not really indicate the anti knock characteristics of the AKI rated fuel since the RON rating method is different MON. 

If your bike does not ping on mid grade or regular it is fine.  If it does, move up a grade.  Most older Monsters are quite happy on regular unless modified.  I can't say for your 696, but do try mid grade first.  The purpose of octane is to prevent Knock.  Best performance is enough octane to prevent knock and no more.  Unless you are in rural America you are running ethanol laced fuel.

[metroplex]

So what about inaccurate air temp readings when the engine is cold? Does that mean the sensor is bad?

When I did the research, 95 RON was about 91 AKI. Since I don't have 91 here, I use 93 octane. I understand the slower burning characteristics of 93 octane vs 87 octane.

[Armor]

20 degrees!  Is it snowing?

[metroplex]

I managed to grab some data:

Ambient air temp was 45.5F in the garage as recorded by my IR meter.
Air temp sensor display on the dash was 32F, but it gradually climbed to 44F. I noticed that if I shut off the key and then flicked it back on, it would start at 32F again!

Using my Ducati Data Analyzer, the cylinder head temperature started at 45F and stayed there until I fired up the engine.

The interesting part is that the engine started very easily when the air temp sensor was at 44F. I'm not sure if this is a coincidence though.

The battery voltage was 13.45 VDC after I pulled the Battery Tender.

[thought]

like i said before... if the bike is really still under 200 miles, i would put some more miles on it if possible and see what happens.  at least past the 1st service interval, preferably over 2k miles.  mostly because there is a history of cold starting issues with 696's and new unbroken in engines also have a harder time starting in general.  with those two factors in hand, spending a lot of time trying to diagnose the issue might be a bit unneeded.

once you've broken in the bike, you've removed one large possible reason and if it's still having major issues then you look into the more convoluted reasons as to why this might be happening.  the only reason i would see to rush this is if your warranty is expiring soon.  if you have a good year before it's done, let it break in first.

[ManaloEA]

Not sure that mileage has a bearing on the issue. My 696 has ust under 5,000 miles and still need to use the fast idle lever. The bike is garage kept and the ambient temperature is 60+.

[thought]

Not sure that mileage has a bearing on the issue. My 696 has ust under 5,000 miles and still need to use the fast idle lever. The bike is garage kept and the ambient temperature is 60+.

i think the 696 will always need to use the fast idle lever, it's more that he's saying that it's taking 20-30 cranks before it starts.

[metroplex]

I went to try out the 696 this morning and the air temp sensor read the correct ambient temp right off the bat (35F). I sat there cranking the engine for about 5 minutes (intermittently).

Then i decided to wait until the headlight shut off, and it fired right up with the fast lever idle fully opened.

I'm going to wait until tomorrow to do this immediately and see if the headlight is drawing too much power from the starter. Then I plan to keep the Tender on the battery and try starting it that way.

[metroplex]

I think I solved the problem.

Romancommander got me thinking about the voltage losses and current demands. I took some voltage readings and noticed that with the key on in the morning (think cold start first time in the morning) the dash display for the voltage was 12.5 VDC w/ my Tender connected (800mA unit) and 12.39 VDC and decreasing without the Tender.

The headlight is draiwng 4.4A of current or so, and on a 10 A-h battery, that's quite a bit. That got me thinking, if I upgraded the battery/starter wiring, that might reduce the losses but I saw the voltage dip way way down while cranking to the point the solenoid just clicked off.

I pulled out my Sears dumb charger which is capable of 50A engine starting for cars. I plugged that sucker into my Tender lead for the Monster's battery, fired it up and turned on the key. The dash display reads 13.1 VDC steady, and the Monster fired up strong without any hesitation. I'm going to try this again tomorrow but based on today's conditions, I think I might be onto something. The problem is, if you're parked away from home and it is 30F-40F outside, the cold start might be a problem.

The Li-Iron/Li-Ion batteries that have a higher open circuit voltage would definitely help out, but the alternator/regulator has to be designed for those type of batteries otherwise they won't get charged properly or will be overcharged/undercharged based on ambient temperatures.

[Howie]

Get that battery load tested.

[matmcd78]

Swapped in a new battery and new sparkplugs with an oil change. Both OEM. Still notice a voltage drop but starts after a couple cranks with the high idle on outside at sub 32'F.