Q re: cleaning and lining 2001 carbed Monster tank

[clubhousemotorsports]

I have no experience with the Bill Hirsch kit so I have nothing bad to say about them. But then the POR and Kreme kits were also fine for many,many years. I do not know as short term results will tell much. we need to know how the Bill Hirsch kit is 3,4 or 5 years later. Are you able to check the older tanks you have coated?

I will look into the Bill Hirsch kit as any options are better than none.

painter
There is no reason you cannot remove the rust before Caswell just as you always did with any of the others, then you do not have to worry about the rust spreading under the caswell. I do not know that caswell will not have problems down the road only that I have not seen any of them to date.

Truckedup
part of the process with Kreme has always to use an acid to remove any rust in the tank first so the fact you saw none under the kreme is an indication someoone followed directions when doing the kit.

There are also products like metalready (sp) where you just acid wash the inside to remove rust and run it that way. But what about the tanks that leak but have no rust?

My problem with the coatings is just that if they do fail now you have a bigger problem. Painter could probably add what pulling dents or welding hinge plates would do to coatings inside necessitating even more fun.

[ducpainter]

I have no experience with the Bill Hirsch kit so I have nothing bad to say about them. But then the POR and Kreme kits were also fine for many,many years. I do not know as short term results will tell much. we need to know how the Bill Hirsch kit is 3,4 or 5 years later. Are you able to check the older tanks you have coated?

I will look into the Bill Hirsch kit as any options are better than none.

painter
There is no reason you cannot remove the rust before Caswell just as you always did with any of the others, then you do not have to worry about the rust spreading under the caswell. I do not know that caswell will not have problems down the road only that I have not seen any of them to date.

Truckedup
part of the process with Kreme has always to use an acid to remove any rust in the tank first so the fact you saw none under the kreme is an indication someoone followed directions when doing the kit.

There are also products like metalready (sp) where you just acid wash the inside to remove rust and run it that way. But what about the tanks that leak but have no rust?

My problem with the coatings is just that if they do fail now you have a bigger problem. Painter could probably add what pulling dents or welding hinge plates would do to coatings inside necessitating even more fun.

You cannot use phosphoric acid to remove rust and then coat with epoxy.

I have personal experience, albeit in a different medium, with that scenario.

[clubhousemotorsports]

I would imagine you just need to neutralize the acid and clean well afterwards. What was the problem, cleaning prior?

Nick
The only issue there is that if the tank has been coated prior you are looking at $500-600 which is better than a new tank but most customers start tearing up if the cost gets above $300. They also seem to be using a epoxy like caswell (might be C) they talk of the proprietary process not chemicals. If you follow the link to aftermarket coating removal you find the usual disclaimers (might not get it all might damage paint,etc) . I wonder what their thoughts are when the tank needs welding after the coating?

[ducpainter]

Like I said, it was in a different medium, but the result was complete delamination of the epoxy. After discussion with lab people at Sherwin-Williams I was told never to use any phosphoric acid containing product under epoxy.

Try it and let me know how it works.

...or better yet call Caswell and see what they say.

[ducpainter]

I've welded tanks that were coated with POR without removing the coating first. I had no issues.

[Speeddog]

I'll ask GTL about welding after coating.
I imagine they'll not recommend it.

I don't think their process is Caswell, it's a shiny gray coating.

They're the best I've found so far.

[Truckedup]

I've welded tanks that were coated with POR without removing the coating first. I had no issues.

  But you still had to remove the coating ruined by the heat of welding... The other danger is a large bubble containing gas fumes that doesn't clear when you purge the tank of fumes....The risk of a bike tank exploding is often based on fear and not reality but flare ups can happen..

[clubhousemotorsports]

Regardless of brand of coating all we can do now is keep an eye on them all.
plastic tanks had no problems for many years
POR-15 had no problems for years
Kreme  had no problems for years  ( I just hated the MEK high that came from using it).
Redkote I have never applied it but have seen a couple failures in the last 4 years.

The application is very important but clearly the fuel is messing with most of them. I have to imagine at the same time the companies selling the coatings are attempting to come up with new formulas that will hold up better. My problem is who wants to be a test pilot when the liner failure can create a larger problem.

Where are our Aluminum tanks?
Composite tanks are sounding more attractive but they have their own problems and I do not want to give up my magnetic tank bags. Maybe we just need someone to start stamping out new steel tanks.

[ducatiz]

When was the last time you did one with the Hirsch product 'Tiz?

about 18 months ago?  600TL tank.  why?

[ducpainter]

about 18 months ago?  600TL tank.  why?

I did tanks with POR for years...never a failure.

All of a sudden, I couldn't say that any more, although it was only a few.

I don't know if they changed the POR, or the effects of ethanol finally started to rear their ugly head.

Just trying to get a sense of what's what.

[ducatiz]

I did tanks with POR for years...never a failure.

All of a sudden, I couldn't say that any more, although it was only a few.

I don't know if they changed the POR, or the effects of ethanol finally started to rear their ugly head.

Just trying to get a sense of what's what.

I know some stuff has changed due to VOC laws here and there, but it should be easy enough to test -- coat a piece of metal and dunk it in gas in a sealed container.  I would also take some E85 gas and do it and see what happens.

The Bill Hirsch product seems to be bullet proof.  I use caswell's on plastic tanks, but bill hirsch on metal tanks..  I have a GTL with a coated tank, did it about 10 years ago.  It has sat with gas for months at a time (yeah, yeah, I should drain it...).. zero issues.  I bought a fibre optic camera to check my plastic tanks and used it on the GTL tank.  Zero issues.

[ducpainter]

I'm done with gas tanks, thank you very much.

When I do my own Monster tank I'll try the Hirsch product. I'm familiar with some of his other resto products.

[NeilF]

Thanks for all the input, esp. Ducpainter re: Evaporust. I was worried about days of rolling...

I finally removed the fuel sensor (it was stuck like crazy), plugged the holes, and it's sitting now full of evaporust. Product lit says give it 12 or so hours, so I will...

Re: POR 15, I wasn't aware of recent quality and performance concerns. I was going to line the tank as an extra precaution. If the exterior of the tank has no leaks, do I really need to line it? Or can I just rinse out Evaporust, dry the tank, then fill it with gas and go?

[ducpainter]

Thanks for all the input, esp. Ducpainter re: Evaporust. I was worried about days of rolling...

I finally removed the fuel sensor (it was stuck like crazy), plugged the holes, and it's sitting now full of evaporust. Product lit says give it 12 or so hours, so I will...

Re: POR 15, I wasn't aware of recent quality and performance concerns. I was going to line the tank as an extra precaution. If the exterior of the tank has no leaks, do I really need to line it? Or can I just rinse out Evaporust, dry the tank, then fill it with gas and go?

You have that option. The Monster tanks, as well as most Ducati tanks, had some sort of coating on the metal, I think Zinc from the appearance after Phosphoric acid etch, which did help to fight rust. If your tank was already very rusty it might be an issue in those areas. The Evaporust won't remove, or convert, the Zinc that's intact.

[Langanobob]

I would imagine you just need to neutralize the acid and clean well afterwards. What was the problem, cleaning prior?

<snip>

Phosphoric acid on rusty old trucks and machinery followed by epoxy primer has been my go-to system for years.  The painted machine are mine, I still own them and even after many years I  have never had a primer failure.   Just my experience and there very well may be a good reason not to use epoxy over phosphoric acid treated steel, but I haven't run into it yet.