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Author Topic: M1100 Hyperstack kit  (Read 4350 times)
Enzoman
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« on: November 21, 2010, 08:06:29 AM »

Hi, hoping someone can help me here. I contacted Ducshop and they told me the hyperstack kits they sell will fit the M1100 here---> http://ducshop.com/hyperstacks.php. But if I do get this kit is it recommended that I also get a power commander because of the increased air flow or will the DP racing ECU that I already have work fine? And if I do need a PC should I get the PCIII or PCV, and will the maps that come with it work right out of the box or does it need to be tuned? Any input is appreciated in advance. thanks!
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Raux
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2010, 08:18:12 AM »

PC V will be the one you need.

and tuned or get the Autotune 100 or 200 (Ungeheuer can give the correct model #... it's the one with two sensors)

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ungeheuer
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2010, 02:28:40 PM »

Hmmm well.... first its not gonna be as simple as just dumping the airbox and dropping on those stacks.   You're gonna need someplace to mount the ECU etc... etc... And then you are gonna need some kinda fuel management to add in extra fuel to go with your extra air.  A PCV will do it, but it wont come premapped.  So either off to the dyno or if you want to go down the Autotune road (AT-100 is dual sensor), you'll also need the ECU reflashed to eliminate the stock closed loop.  So... if you're reflashing the ECU and if you're willing to work with whoever does that for you, you could have the ECU mapped directly for you desired fuelling and skip the PCV.  But it could be a little try-it-and-see - a bit of a leap of faith in your remapper's fuelling guesswork.  Whereas if you go PCV, you take it to the dyno and know you have it right.  That IMO is the least troublesome of all the options.... and its easy to retune if the need arises. 
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Enzoman
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2010, 03:04:57 PM »

So the maps that come with the PCV can't be used because of the added extra airflow with the hyperstacks? Or is it that the maps are only for a stock airbox?
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 02:17:05 AM »

The PCV doesnt come with any maps preloaded.  And last time I looked there were about 2 maps (for use with slipon cans) available for download from dynajet's website, so unless they've got busy recently thats not gonna be much help to you either.

But I may be able to help  Smiley.

My PCV mapping created using Autotune*  works well with the WASP "airbox-be-gone" kit.  If you intend retaining the stock closed loop then you'd just need to zero out the values in the closed loop area and allow the PCV's o2 "optimizers" to look after fattening up that part of the mapping.  

What exhaust are you running?

(*based on my own AFR tables, so you're welcome to use em but entirely at your own risk.  I'm happy to share, but thats the limit of my liability)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 02:25:04 AM by ungeheuer » Logged

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Enzoman
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 07:03:34 AM »

I like your disclaimer lol...

I have the stock exhaust with termi slip ons and racing ECU. Do I need to buy the autotune  accessory with the O2 sensor? I just did a search and there is a shop near me that does power commander tuning.
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mattc7
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 07:47:41 AM »

I like your disclaimer lol...

I have the stock exhaust with termi slip ons and racing ECU. Do I need to buy the autotune  accessory with the O2 sensor? I just did a search and there is a shop near me that does power commander tuning.

The autotune is not necessary. If used it will theoretically replace the tuner, as the PCV will be trimming itself constantly.

If using the 02 sensors however, most of the map will not be changed by the device, but solely by the 02 optimizers

The effectiveness of the optimizers (moreso, how well they function to make the right a/f ratio), and the auto-tunes effectiveness (how well it adjusts the settings) remain to be seen compared to a good tuner's mapping ability.  I have heard good things about the autotune, but not seen any empirical evidence to either refute or confirm the user's notions.

That said, with the 02 sensors in place, the effectiveness of the PCV is limited, as the tuning range is reduced from 100% of rpm range, and 100% of throttle position range, to less than half of each (give or take, I forget the real values)


IF you do install the hyperstacks, let me know what you did for mounting the ECU/coils/etc, as I've been considering the idea as well, but have yet to really tear into the bike to see how I would effectively mount things once the airbox is gone.
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 03:14:26 PM »

The long:

The autotune is not necessary. If used it will theoretically replace the tuner, as the PCV will be trimming itself constantly.
Exactly right.  Not only is autotune not necessary, but if you wanted to go that way (which I did out of masochistic curiosity) you would also have to reflash your ECU to eliminate the stock closed loop.

If using the 02 sensors however, most of the map will not be changed by the device, but solely by the 02 optimizers
Most of the map?  Lets see.... From memory (<< disclaimer again.... hahahaha) stock closed loop on M1100 is 4,500rpm and below.  And stock red line is.... 9,500?  So lets call it half then.  

.....with the 02 sensors in place, the effectiveness of the PCV is limited, as the tuning range is reduced from 100% of rpm range, and 100% of throttle position range, to less than half of each.....
I'm not gonna split hairs  Smiley.  If you leave the stock closed loop "as is" then its true that your PCV will only be useful for tuning the upper 50% of your engine's rev range.  But dont let this overstated shortcoming put you off, in conjunction with the optimizers in my experience it works very well. The o2 optimizers supplied with the PCV plug in line with the stock o2 sensors and tell pretty lies to the ECU to convince it that things are leaner down there than is actually the case, causing the ECU to order up more fuel.  But this is fixed; the fuel ratio is bumped by a fixed % over which you have no control.  Once beyond the 4500rpm point you can of course create custom mapping however.  Naturally having the ability to "play" throughout the entire rev range is ideal, but a nicely setup PCV mapping the open loop in conjunction with the optimizers boosting the closed loop does work very well.  Quality of the power delivery is much nicer.  Smoother, less lumpy.  Especially down low. (The quantity of power is surely increased too, but I have no actual evidence to support this assertion).

The effectiveness of the optimizers (moreso, how well they function to make the right a/f ratio), and the auto-tunes effectiveness (how well it adjusts the settings) remain to be seen compared to a good tuner's mapping ability.
OK. First the optimizers.  How effective? IMO very effective.  But they are not a tuning device as such, they are a work around to overcome the PCV's inability to map anything under 4,500rpm.  All they do is "mute" the message from the stock o2 sensors so that whilst the ECU continues to aim for 14:7 its actually fuelling at a fixed ratio richer than that (I dont recall what exactly the enriched AFR is set at).  

Second, the effectiveness of Autotune.  It works well, but you'll have to accept my word on that coz its true, I have no evidence to support this claim.  Is it any better than having your PCV nicely mapped on a Dyno?  Almost certainly not.  Its only "advantage" is that whilst your Dynotuned mapping is fixed, Autotune's is dynamic.  If things on your bike change then your state of tune auto-compensates as it constantly "trims" as you ride.  Is it worth the effort?  Nope.  But I enjoyed finding out that it is possible and that it does work well  Grin.


And the short:

If I was you, I'd leave the ECU stock, fit a PCV + o2 optimizers and go visit your nearest reputable Dynocentre.  Simple and good  waytogo.


In Europe Raux has another neater option, that of having his ECU directly custom mapped at a Rexxer ECU tuning centre.  He can achieve the same results (better in theory) as the rest of us who run a Dynotuned PCV (or in my case Autotuned PCV), without requiring the piggy-back PCV unit to modify anything.  Bastard  cheeky.  Maybe he'll have a PCV to sell you?  Evil (M696 PCV and M1100 PCV are the same - they list them with different part numbers only because the installation instructions are slightly different).



« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 03:30:27 PM by ungeheuer » Logged

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mattc7
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 06:47:27 PM »

1100s redline [very harshly] between 8000 and 8500 rpm (I don't know the exact, but it's below 8500). Trust me, I've hit it more than enough to know it's not above 8500, and that it's definitely too low/harsh. Just less than halfway by a hair.

Granted also, very rarely are you really riding between 0 and 2500 rpm...typically you spend all the time on a non-city ride, between 4k and 7.5k, so the effect of closed loop is actually minimal in practice.

Which is why my rexxer setup is redlined at 10,000rpm.  I'll never hit the limiter so it doesn't bother me, but when I'm in a corner, I nolonger hit that sharp cutoff.

Nothing worse than going through a long left hander on the track, hitting the stutter right before the apex, and losing the drive out. Even worse, is how unstabilizing that sharp stop/go feel is.

Just saying, it's slightly more than half. Not by much, but still.

I wasn't trying to imply that the O2 optimizers, or PCV w/ autotune wouldn't function well, just that the functionality is undocumented empirically.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 06:49:56 PM by mattc7 » Logged
ungeheuer
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 08:04:45 PM »

You are right mattc7.  Stock red line is 8250.  Mine is Rexxered up to 9500.  So you win the hair splitting contest, closed loop is indeed more than half the range.  Just.  laughingdp Wink  waytogo.
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