What the Eurocrats are up to now!

[ducatiz]

In a quick search, found this interesting. Obviously nobody here has a death wish either. Think of granny pulling out of a side street on you! 

granny ran a red light and nearly killed me once and it was my experience at crazy braking that saved me.  plus i was on my Elefant and I don't think ABS would do to well on a dual sport (old style)

[Curmudgeon]

granny ran a red light and nearly killed me once and it was my experience at crazy braking that saved me.  plus i was on my Elefant and I don't think ABS would do to well on a dual sport (old style)

 

Not sure, but might have been a handful just as you came to a complete stop. Might be OK. I had it on a K100RT with 8" of travel and you had to be strong enough to keep it up when the suspension rebounds. I couldn't do that today for sure.

Besides granny, my other fave is the hausfrau in the big SUV who looks you square in the eye just before turning left right in front of you! Missed one of those on the T-100 by 30' this past summer and that thing has only fair brakes and 90 lbs more mass than the 796.

Riding 1/2 mile ahead is the only way to survive.

BTW, a good friend had the accident you avoided back in 1976 in Bergen County NJ and planted an R90S through the rear door of a car while he went airbourne over it. Not only was he super skilled and experienced rider but was the BMW liason to Butler & Smith. He was laid up for several weeks after that one. A quick Google shows that he died in a kayak accident at age 70 which is sad, but not a guy you could keep down. His motorcycle tour business is mentioned in this article. http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2008/06/28/89571-tucsonan-beer-known-for-adventurous-spirit/

[Buckethead]

According to all the research that has already been done in this field, "risk compensation" tells us, their logic is flawed. Although the intent is well meaning.

" Anti-lock brakes. There are at least three studies which show that drivers' response to antilock brakes is to drive faster, follow closer and brake later, accounting for the failure of ABS to result in any measurable improvement in road safety. The studies were performed in Canada, Denmark and Germany.[1] [2] [3]

Question: how many of those studies reference motorcycles or other vehicles where the front and rear brakes are independent?

My answer is usually along the lines of, "well there are currently no studies to support or discount the benefit of either for 1st year rider specifically, there are a number of studies that suggest they make EXPERIENCED riders ride more dangerously due to risk compensation".  Therefore, I cannot fathom how a new rider would not be affected by the same phenomenon, likely moreso.

And yet there are numerous studies that show that a new rider, or even an experienced rider on a "new to him" bike are more likely to have an accident than an experienced rider on a bike that they're familiar with. The logical conclusion is that if a new rider learns to ride on a bike with ABS, using "safe riding practices," then they're likely safer than their classmate on a bike with conventional brakes.

As a fellow MSF Rider Coach, I feel it's more important to emphasize the role of drinking and riding ("Almost 50% of all riders killed had been drinking. One third of these riders had a BAC above the legal limit." <MSF Basic Rider Course, Rider's Handbook. Edition 7.1. (c) 2009. P. 43>) than to de-emphasize or discredit safety features now available.

All of the studies you cite refer to drivers without ABS who are now suddenly gifted with a supernatural ability to stop.

If you're a cautious rider to begin with, as most MSF grads are (by comparison) then ABS only makes you safer.

[polivo]

Your conclusions are logical, Id tend to agree that a + b=c.  However, I simply citing the results of multiple studies on risk compensation.  Its certainly not specific to motorcycles and ABS. Just multiple studies that show, the safer someone believes they are, the higher up the "risk ladder" theyll climb. In many documented instances, nullifying the effects of the technical advantages.  Feel free to point out a study which illustrates a safety mechanism not being affected by risk compensation, provided the end user is aware of the technological benefit.

Now with that in mind, ofcourse I do agree there are much more important areas to focus on during a BRC. I just feel its unethical to answer a question based on logical conclusions, no matter how reasonable they are.. when theres clearly documented evidence to the contrary.

[polivo]

After thinking about this for a bit, I realized theres a much easier way to address the question. Because theres really two totally different issues happening here.

Question: Will ABS help me stop in shorter distances?
Answer:   Absolutely. Clearly documented that your breaking distances will be significantly reduced.

question: Will this make me a safer rider?
Answer:   Behavioral studies in the area of risk compensation suggest that they may or may not.. based on the decisions you make.

[polivo]

Interesting little read, but its literally one of millions out there:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/street_savvy/122_1107_modern_motorcycle_safety_street_savvy/index.html

[bikepilot]

I think ABS is a helpful technology that would benefit most riders.  I also very firmly think it is a rider's choice as to whether it is worth the weight and cost, for some people it should be a no-brainer, for others its equally clearly not ideal -- for many others it'll be a close call and a call that we can make for our selves much better than can some fat idiot on the hill.  Personally, I'm on the fence as to whether I'd want it on my bikes.  Also note that ABS systems vary a lot -- some are genuinely terrible (early BMW) some are quite good (current CBR600RR).  All are expensive and add weight.

A ton of crapy riders and a few good ones crash because they inadvertently lock the front, abs could almost eliminate those crashes.  For that matter, fresh, quality tires probably could too in most circumstances 

I don't mind good abs on cars, but then I don't have a separate brake pedal for each wheel on a car so having a computer proportion braking as traction is available can be helpful.  On the moto I can do a pretty darn good job myself and the idea of sliding a little bit if I botch it doesn't make me too nervous, but I've been racing off road for almost two decades so I may be a tad more comfortable sliding around than your typical squid.

[Le Pirate]

As a fellow MSF Rider Coach, I feel it's more important to emphasize the role of drinking and riding ("Almost 50% of all riders killed had been drinking. One third of these riders had a BAC above the legal limit." <MSF Basic Rider Course, Rider's Handbook. Edition 7.1. (c) 2009. P. 43>) than to de-emphasize or discredit safety features now available.

While slightly off topic, I think THIS is the most important thing to teach new motorcyclist. Riding a motorcycle takes much more concentration than driving a car (arguable if that should be the case or not  ).

Back to the topic at hand...


I consider myself a fairly experienced rider now, and have ridden various kinds of bike (on road, off road...um...no road ). Anyways, I recently was test riding a friends new pavement eater (sport tourer) and got to experience the joys of it's ABS. No sarcasm here: I think I would of lost his brand new bike to a ditch on a damp road if it hadn't been for the ABS kicking in.

As experienced as many of us are, there are some things you can't control on the road. As much as I'm used to riding and sliding around offroad, I didn't see this instance coming (super slick section of road near an intersection...thinking it was some diesel or something, and the road was already damp), and the ABS did exactly what it was supposed to.

Obviously this isn't the kind of bike you're pushing to it's limits, but the system was non-existant 99.9% of the time...but when I needed it, it kicked in. I like it.

Just my personal opinion based on this one experience, though.