Quick question about being "crossed-up" - why before + not now?

[johnster]

-Probably the one aspect I am constantly working on more than anything when it comes to my riding is my body position while cornering. I consider my technique to be getting pretty darn good (upper body leaned towards inside bar, head low, butt about 1/2 off the seat, looking through). One thing I have been trying that I see a lot of MotoGP riders do is keeping my upper body well to the inside as I pick the bike up + roll on the gas. I find that it helps me to get around the end of the turn as I open the throttle more effectively.

Okay, maybe not as extreme as Casey, but you get the idea...



My question really has to to do with upper-body position more than anything. We all know that hanging your butt way off the seat while keeping your upper-body centered is a no-no, and is referred to as being "crossed-up". Why, then, did we see a lot of the older 500cc GP guys constantly ride like this? My guess is that it has to do with the less advanced chassis + suspension of those days, which simply wouldn't allow the modern lean positions.

-Check out Kevin Schwantz from 1993. I even saw him riding the current GSV-R GP bike in the same fashion, probably because old habits are hard to break!      Wouldn't this be considered "crossed-up"? This is how I used to ride, but have since changed figuring that it was wrong.



-Here's a painting someone did of Doohan + Schwantz, but it shows what I mean:



-So why did guys used to use this body position, whereas these days it's considered "improper"? My guess is motorcycly technology only allowing certain extremes to be reached, but I was just curious as to what other people's takes were on the subject.

-Thanks for any input!! 

-John

[Spidey]

They rode/ride that way because they could.  And that's how they were comfortable and fast.  It doesn't mean it's right for the masses.  Fast riders still ride crossed up even nowadays.  Bayliss' and Tony Elias' body positions are all kindsa messed up, but they're fast.

[johnster]

They rode/ride that way because they could.

I guess that makes sense, doesn't it...   

-You're right, Bayliss does have sort of a funky body position in the corners, doesn't he.. didn't even think about that. I guess I just more riders these days doing the "knee-bows" thing than I ever had in the past and was wondering why.

-Another thing I thought about was how those 2-strokes, with their light-switch powerbands, could get away from you easier than a predictable 4-stroke coming out of the corners. Maybe their body positions helped to stay with the bike as the gas was rolled on?

    -Just food for thought. I don't think it can be denied that you don't see as many people riding like this anymore... 

[derby]

mick wasn't always crossed up:

[johnster]

^^^B'aahhh, ok maybe I'm getting proven wrong here...   

-So if those guys can ride closer to crossed up than not, simply because they can go fast + feel comfortable in that position, does it sort of become a "do as I say, not as I do" situation? Does it have ANYTHING to do with the powerband of a 2-stroke vs. a 4?? I can't help but notice that the old 2-stroke 500 guys rode differently than the racers of today. (cue the "duuuhhh, the bikes weren't as easy to ride back then!!"    )
    Every track school video I've ever seen (haven't actually attended one yet ) and book I have read teaches that this is the wrong way to ride, and that upper body should always precede any lower body/knee down attempts.

-I guess I'm just confused. Even though I feel like my technique is more proper now, I can't truthfully say that the old way I rode (more crossed up) caused me any great disservice.

-In the end, is it just a "go with whatever feel right to you" thing? My apologies for the confusion and thanks for your replys! 

[GLantern]

If your crossed up like that you would need more lean angle to take the same corner as opposed to someone who was hanging completely off.  Which in turn leaves little room for error and less acceleration out of the corner because the bike wouldnt have as large of a contact patch.

[zedsaid]

I think the answer is "we know better now."

there's no way that riding "less correct" would be a good idea on a "less easy to handle" bike.  They just learned to ride that way, know the limits that way, and therefore can ride at them.

If your crossed up like that you would need more lean angle to take the same corner as opposed to someone who was hanging completely off.  Which in turn leaves little room for error and less acceleration out of the corner because the bike wouldnt have as large of a contact patch.

Isn't there a larger contact patch the more you're leaned? (granted, more of it is going to keeping you turned)

[Cider]

Interesting observation.  Schwantz doesn't look all that bad, but that painting of Doohan--wow!  I guess it just shows that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I'm a huge Bayliss fan, but I've also noticed that his position is a little unusual (Hodgson looks similar to me as well).  I'd like to win like Bayliss and Doohan, but I'd like to do it while looking more like Biaggi or Hopper.  One of the instructors at Freddie Spencer's school even mentioned that Bayliss is a little crossed up, but he said that Bayliss often drops his head on the exit to lift the bike up off the apex.

I took some pictures of World SBK practice at the Release corner at MMP a few months ago (compressed heavily for the web--sorry).  It's a 180-degree corner that exits onto the front straight.  I think it's interesting to compare the different styles.  Too bad Haga was out with an injury--I've always liked his style.

Checa and Kiyonari:


Kagayama:


Nieto:


Corser:


Biaggi:


Fabrizio:


Xaus:


Bayliss:

[Cider]

One more thing--check out Corser's style in the pictures above.  He crashed in that corner in race 2.  Bayliss also highsided exiting that same corner during one of the races.

[misti]

If your crossed up like that you would need more lean angle to take the same corner as opposed to someone who was hanging completely off.  Which in turn leaves little room for error and less acceleration out of the corner because the bike wouldnt have as large of a contact patch.

+1 exactly.

Misti

[triangleforge]

And look at cornering styles from fifteen or twenty years before that -- video from the 1971 film On Any Sunday (I'm pretty sure this is from the first one, not the second...). On a side note, I always find myself cinching my gloves a bit tighter after watching this video! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-151wFnhtE&feature=related

and Mike Hailwood at the Isle of Man 1978



Not a whole lot of body position changes at all; in the first video, you'll occasionally see riders somewhat crossed up, an occasional knee fairly tentatively dropped, but that's about it. If anything, it looks like Lawill is TRYING to drag a toe on the inside; maybe dirt-track habits dying hard? Nobody moving off the saddle at all. Of course, 30 degree banking at Daytona may have something to do with that. And in the Hailwood vid, he seems focused on staying as tightly tucked as possible behind the fairing & windscreen, so could early ideas about aerodynamics have been part of the thinking behind riders moving so little?

[tufty]

When I took Schwantz's class a couple back he took the lesson on body position personally.
He admittedly has a very upright body style in corners but also acknowledges that the current younger riders lean way off and down, he says that he doesn't think it's necessary but whatever works (his words). The reason for his upright style btw is because he believes that it is important to keep a large degree of bend the riders arms while cornering to help lever the bike up on exits.

When you lean way off the bike typically the arm on the outside of the turn straightens up and loses any useful movement or fights you in the turn. Also back in Schwantz's, Doohan's and to a lesser extent Hodgson's and Bayliss' day the style wasn't to carry as much corner speed, rather square off the corner and wack the throttle open so keeping the bike upright was more important plus the tires couldn't handle the lean angles.

Fwiw, all the pics of guys on 1098's the riders don't hang off as much as the guys on the Jap bikes because the seat pan on the 1098 and 848 is very wide and can accommodate pretty large amounts of body shifting while still keeping a lot of the rider's butt in the saddle.

[mxwinky]

I think the one part of the puzzle being overlooked here is the combined factors of the nature of the 500s (and the 990s as well) and the riding styles of those who tamed those beasts, bearing in mind that many of those riders had vast dirt track experience.  The 500s and the 990s had so much and such gnarly power output that they would routinely ovewhelm their tires and chassis, and indeed the riders who could slide them well, a-la flattrackers, generally had a better time mastering them.  Watch Nicky Hayden in the older footage of him on the 990cc RC211V and you'll see him really stepping out the rear end and sliding it through corners.  And indeed, the old 500 riders were always sliding the heck out of the two-strokes.  The new 800s, especially with their electronics, are more like very powerful 250s that rely on corner speed and don't have the torque or violent powerbands of either the 990s or the 500s so the riders generally just lean 'em in and ride through the corners.  Though there were some great shots of Nicky sliding the 800 at Indy that really bring back the old days!  I think in World Superbike you'll find a bit of this old-school stuff too as those things are a lot more brutal with a lot less electronic sophistication than the MotoGP bikes, and spec Pirellis may be a factor too.  Those guys can really slide the bikes a lot.  Heck, Spencer used to routinely slide both ends and then pick it up while bringing the rear around in order to keep up corner speed and momentum to keep up with Roberts' more powerful 4-cylinder Yamahas back in the day.  I hope we'll see Nicky's talents rise to the occasion of riding the Ducati in 2009; he's a prime candidate to tame the beast!