bye bye, 250gp...

[gm2]

It's pretty clever how they managed to disenfranchise every manufacturer in the world except the Jap big 4 with one sentence isn't it?
Now if only our government could write legislation that concise.

a twin manu that makes a V4, 3 japanese manus that normally make I4s making V4s, honda was making a V5... etc.

true, if this new class really has a production spec requirement, then yeah, Ducati etc are SOL.  but it's not like they were in 250 before.  maybe part of the 600 rules package will be something about specific manus.  who knows.

[derby]

and, fwiw, it's not like the existing 250cc class is rife with manufacturers.

there's really only two (aprilia/gilera and ktm) and one guy on a honda.

aprilia is already building a 1000cc v4 for worldsbk, so it's not like they can't throw the motor in the drier on high to shrink it down for 250, er, 600gp. if they want the gilera brand to play, they'll just rebadge a priller like they do now.

ktm, on the other hand, might have to put in a little more r&d effort.

[Triple J]

So if the next generation of Duc SBKs are going to be V4s (maybe, who knows), then who thinks Ducati would build a V4 600 to compete in this class...and all the other 600cc series?

[derby]

i'd be really surprised if they didn't build a bike to compete in supersport. they contested world supersport w/ both the 748 and 749.

[superjohn]

If they're under the same engine regs,  a 600cc machine should be roughly 25% less powerful than the MotoGP bike right? Combine that with what would probably be more weight to HP and the 600cc class would be a decent feeder series, though I wonder what they'd do with the 125cc 2-stroke.

I would really prefer they not make the class production based. There's already a lot of Supersport series running and it'd be far better to have a middle-weight prototype series to allow the manufacturers to test and develop new materials and technology ahead of its deployment in production bikes much the same way that MotoGP develops technology that eventually makes it into Superbike.

[sbrguy]

honestly i'd love if ducati made an ultra trick V4 600cc bike, imagine basically a lighter mini-d16 that is hopefully more reasonably priced.

the only problem would be it would probably cost a bundle o-money for the valve adjustments that would cost more than the bike itself after a couple times.

[EvilSteve]

I still don't understand why they didn't go the 450 single route. An I4 600 formula really only sets up the big 4 to win everything because no one else (maybe I'm missing someone) has a current production I4 600cc motor. By going the S450 route, you still give the big 4 a head start but you can have more than just them in the series, like KTM, BMW et al. Plus, you can actually have a super light series and stick to what I think is at the heart of GP racing.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

oh, I'm crazy without them...

[derby]

I still don't understand why they didn't go the 450 single route. An I4 600 formula really only sets up the big 4 to win everything because no one else (maybe I'm missing someone) has a current production I4 600cc motor. By going the S450 route, you still give the big 4 a head start but you can have more than just them in the series, like KTM, BMW et al. Plus, you can actually have a super light series and stick to what I think is at the heart of GP racing.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

oh, I'm crazy without them...

450 twin would've been better.

[EvilSteve]

450 twin would've been better.

Aprilia would love that. The main point of S450 motors is to give the manufacturers a base from which to start.

Companies that make different engines (guesstimate):
I4 600: 4
S 450: 7+
V2 450: 1

If they're talking about using production engines (which was my understanding) then I'd prefer to have as many companies involved as possible. Making other companies build whole new engine lines isn't actually that cheap.

[Cru Jones]

The only thing that would prevent me from fully agreeing with you ES is the big discrepancy between the HP of a current 250GP (~100HP - according to Bautista's website - probably a low figure IMO) & the HP of a well-tuned 450 S (if I had to guess ~70HP - tops). Following that logic though, the 600 I-4s (WSS) usually are putting out around ~130HP...so, I wonder if they're going to de-tune the 600s or how they're going to keep them in line with the current 250GP HPs or if they even care. 

[EvilSteve]

Don't forget the weight differences though, we're talking a fairly large difference between a I4 600 and a 450. Yeah, they can build their own chassis and all that but it's still meant to be a production motor. With the 600s the way they are right now the most interesting point for me is how much lighter they can make the bike with the same production motor in it given the blue sky engineering. The flow on effects from the this however, given that the 600s are all basically the same output is that mucho cash is going to be spent in all other areas, as well as the increase in costs inherent in running 4 strokes over 2 strokes, it's going to be very expensive which again works in the favor of the big 4 manufacturers and factory teams.

This seems to be happening in F1 as well as many other places, they're doing things under the auspices of cost cutting or safety but they're actually making it more expensive, less inclusive and less safe.

To be honest, I'd like to see anything 450 be permitted because having Aprilia in the game would be really cool but I don't really think that any other manufacturer is being considered.

I see what might be considered a contradiction in what I'm saying here as compared to my reaction to the DMG running AMA racing but the difference is that were involving more manufacturers and letting them run 450s. DMG goes too far by removing the link to the manufacturers completely (IMO).

Again, just seems to me that 250GP is being chopped to become a vehicle for the big 4 to develop their bikes rather than a competitive and interesting series (like it is now). I also find myself wondering how this will play out in terms of the 125-250-MotoGP rider progression.

[Cru Jones]

Again, just seems to me that 250GP is being chopped to become a vehicle for the big 4 to develop their bikes rather than a competitive and interesting series (like it is now). I also find myself wondering how this will play out in terms of the 125-250-MotoGP rider progression.

Couldn't have said it better. Your comment re: F1 was on point as well.

What I don't understand is that if the manufacturers need a series to develop their SS bikes, then why not just use WSS? I know the rules for the new 600GP class would favor advances in technology more so than WSS, but it just seems redundant to have two series that are very similar.

[EvilSteve]

Totally agree.

They could still use advances in technology on 450s in all sorts of areas without the series being derivative. It's sad IMO that a better solution wasn't found that would be more inclusive.

[derby]

ktm says "buh bye..."

http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Oct/081016ktm.htm