Termi/DP ECU kit problems - popping from Airbox

[CairnsDuc]

No, I decided against changing anything else, the idle has now settled around 1100rpm, so I figured best not to play around with things.
I kind of figured if something is all covered in paint, then they (Ducati) obviously don't want it moved or fiddled with, and I figure if I screw around with that, I then have to adjust something else, and then something else, and on and on it goes.....
I'll eventually need a flux capacitor to get back to where I need to be 

I'll leave it this way until service, return the air bleed screws to the position they were before and let the guys at the dealership have a bit of a tweak with the DDS and there magic Ducati hammers.

After the service I'll see how it is going from there and report back, but for now just with the tweak of the screws, it is running much better.

Thanks everyone for there assistance 

[brad black]

if you leave it the way it is, take it in for service and say "it was surging so i wound the air bleeds in X amount and now it doesn't surge.  can you please check the idle mixture now and then wind out the air bleeds to make the idle speed right again then reset the idle mixture to what it was when i bought it in" then they'll know exactly what you want and why you want it and if they're any good at customer service they'll do what you asked.

otherwise you'll just end up back where you started and they won't know 1/ you're not happy and 2/ how to get you where you need to be or 3/ how to fix it if it happens again, to you or someone else.

without being rude, customers like yourself annoy me because instead of giving us the facts you let us "see what we can do" without knowing what target we're trying to hit and then you continuing to have an issue when we miss said target.  it's pretty easy to miss this sort of stuff on a test ride, and even if they do notice it they might consider it normal because "everyone we've done is like that" without knowing it can be better.

communication can be a real help.

[CairnsDuc]

I intended to return it to the original positions and let the guys know what I had done, and what improvement it had made, and let the Techs make the decision, once the DDS was plugged in and they could read all of the settings and use the gas analyzer and make the call on if the computer, air bleed screws, or a combination of both would be the correct way to solve the issue.

I misunderstood our conversations Brad, I got the impression that this was a temporary fix until it could put back on the DDS and corrected through the computer and in conjunction with the screw settings.

Sorry I should have put that in the previous post.

I was a little cagey though because some dealers get very touchy about customer fiddling with things like this due to warranty issue's, also there is a 6 week back story to this upgrade with computers not working and a series of other dramas due to a mismatch between the instrument cluster/air sensor and the DP ECU.
There were a some other issues going on with regards to this upgrade kit of which would were not aware, this has been a long ongoing saga. 

[brad black]

my point is (stepping up onto the soap box):

don't be cagey.  if they don't like being told that you had a problem, you played with it, now it's better and you can tell them all about it then why the make the beast with two backs are you giving them money?  it's nothing to do with warranty.  and it's nothing to do with info on the internet.  every importer we deal with (well, used to) mocks the internet and the people on it, but it's the biggest source of shared info and data base of what people are experiencing.  if they give you attitude over it remind them who's paying their wages.  i used to say that to the other techs i worked with when they started the "internet bashing" after a customer had said "i was on the internet....".  sure it can cause issues, but that's mainly because it's not handled correctly.  if a customer wanted me to do something i thought was silly i'd just make it clear we could do whatever HE wanted, with the consequence at HIS risk, after i'd explained my view of it.  simple.  and sometimes i'd learn stuff - it's amazing what can happen when you step down off the pedestal and actually listen to people.

the dds tells them nothing.  it's a tool that lets you do stuff, but it will tell you absolutely nothing about what your bike is doing on the road when you're standing there looking at it in the workshop.  a little bit lean is not something that is the result of an issue that will log a fault code.  faults get logged when things are very wrong.

there's two things to do to set your bike up with the mods you've done.  1 is tps reset.  2 is idle mixture setting.  tps reset they have no control over, assuming they're doing it right.  idle mixture they do.  ask spider about his dp ecu experience and the difference in what two workshops (me and someone else) did with it.

winding in the air bleeds has richened the bottom of the map so to speak.  it will also lower the idle speed as you found, but that's not an issue as such as that's their function - to adjust idle speed - so you expect that.  but richening the low throttle mixture is what you wanted.  tell them it's too lean on the trimmer BASED ON YOUR RIDING EXPERIENCE ON YOUR BIKE.  remember it's YOUR bike, if it's not right or different YOU will know it.  subtle stuff that a tech can't pick up on a short road test of a bike he's ridden a few times at best will be obvious to you if you've spent 10,000km on it.

off soap box now.

[DesmoDisciple]

I've made the adjustment as Brad said, the first thing I noticed is the Idle has dropped to 1000 rpm, but the bike is running cooler, I tried riding stuck behind some slow traffic and the bike normally get's pretty warm doing this, but this afternoon it seemed to be running cooler.

The hesitation is hard to detect, if it's there at all, I managed to get the temp up to around 100 degrees (c) and pulled over and shut the bike off for a few mins, restarted and rode off and it didn't pop at all.

I'm going to try it again in the morning when it's a little warmer.

Now I just have to lift my Idle back up. but so far it looks promising 

I have a 900 with Duc ECU/Termi/open air box. VERY similar behavior. I have a low idle (1000 rpm when warm). If the bike gets really hot on a warm day, I will get very minor little pops up through the airbox on occasion. That being said, it pulls like a locomotive, never stumbles and never stalls. No complaints.

[CairnsDuc]

But surely we shouldn't have to put up with popping, surging and other problems with what amounts to an expensive Factory approved part

But really, with the surging, popping and limited hot weather performance offered with this kit, I mean where I am in the tropics, I dread when summer really hits! we are averaging 31 Degrees (C) at the moment, but when we hit 35 - 38 Degrees (C) and 98% humidity (Nov to April), it means I'm going to have a very expensive Ducati with a permanent case of the Farts and cough's until the cooler weather arrives.

And it would appear I'm not the only with problems with the DP/Termi upgrade kits, I really think they are not worth the money or the hassles involved, it would appear that a lot of dealers can not set them up to get them to work, We should all not have to rely on on a specialist like Brad Black to get the best out of a very expensive Dealer fitted, Factory supplied part!

but after 6 weeks of computers, adjustment after adjustment, visit after visit, I really think for the time and effort involved, I think leaving the OEM cans on was a better Idea!
I'm going to get the 12K service done, give them a final chance to fix the surging and poor performance(I told them about adjusting the Screws, They flipped! They advised they never touch the screws!)
If it's not sorted after this visit, it can all come off and be returned to stock.

[brad black]

don't let me near the soap box again.

what really shits me is that it's not hard to do.  and that what you're saying is heard quite a bit, across many models.  we fitted a heap of s2r800 kits and they all worked fine.

the 900 is a touch different as it runs the older style non linear tps that is set up via a manual procedure, but again it's just basic steps using the right equipment to get the desired result.  it's not like i fell out of the sky totally skilled in this stuff.  i've just learnt it, so anyone else can too.

i wish you luck.  it annoys me that people in service departments treat customers like they're idiots.  granted, some of the customers i've come across are, but it's amazing what you learn as you go along and talk to them and listen to stuff they've tried.  over the years i've found that we could have solved more problems had customer's felt able to say more without prejudice directed at them or been listened to better.

[CairnsDuc]

It just seems to be an issue that the a number of dealers have no Idea how to set them up correctly, now from an outsider perspective, who's at fault?

The Dealer - Staff not trained enough or just not willing to listen to what the customer is telling them.

Ducati - For making a kit that appears to be beyond the level of training for the average Ducati dealership

The customer - For believing the Hype that being a Factory part and upgrade, it should fit and work perfectly, because it was designed and setup by the guys who built the bike, and installed by the guys that service your Ducati all day every day.

Again, The Customer - Who after taking it back time after time (Or never do), thinks that is the way it is meant to be, and put's up with popping and poor hot weather performance, because they think that's how these Kits are.

I respect what your saying Brad, they might be an easy kit to fit, but it would appear that it would be beyond quite a few of the "Factory trained" Service Staff.

[CairnsDuc]

Well, I have just gotten back from the Dealer, The bike has gotten dramatically worse in the last couple of days,
The bike decided to have a coughing fit half way through a corner on wed morning and damn near kicked me off!!

I have just dropped the bike off and the guys plugged in the DDS, They had Coil errors and a couple of other errors, As the guys said have that amount of errors all at once is almost unheard of, so they checked the battery voltage, Ding, Ding, Ding!!! We have a winner, battery is stuffed, it starts the bike fine, but the battery is that bad it's dragging the voltage right down when the bike is running.

They dropped in a known good battery from another bike, and it all appears fine, but I have left them with it, they are putting in a new battery, they will reset the idle, the TPS and then run it over to a local tuning shop to give it a run on there 4 gas analyzer to double check the DDS is reading right and check it all appears OK.
One of the guys will ride it home tonight and check it's all OK, and everything is all smiles I'll collect it tomorrow.
Fingers crossed that this saga will soon end.

[brad black]

does that mean the dealer doesn't have their own gas analyser?

[Capo]

i would have thought that once started, the alternator would take care of all electrical loads.

[ducpainter]

i would have thought that once started, the alternator would take care of all electrical loads.

+1

unless the battery had a dead short...

in which case it wouldn't start the bike.

[Speeddog]

That is odd.

I've had a car battery with a broken terminal, it would work fine for weeks, then go 'open', car would die.
Wait a couple minutes and it would start up and run like normal.

[Howie]

i would have thought that once started, the alternator would take care of all electrical loads.

The alternator takes care of all loads as long as output is sufficient.  Typically, motorcycles have low output at low engine speed.  On an FI bike you have to power the fuel pump, computer and lights.  This means you need a good battery for the bike to run properly.

As speeddog noted, this is even a problem on some cars.  This is why wattage has been growing in car alternators in recent years.

[CairnsDuc]

does that mean the dealer doesn't have their own gas analyser?

Yes, the one that plugs into the DDS, but he wanted to check that the readings he was seeing with the DDS were correct, plus also with the amount of silly things the bike is doing, he wanted more information on what was coming out of the exhaust to try and figure out what the fault might be. as he said it's insurance to also confirm the DDS or it's exhaust sensor were not faulty or in need of calibration

would have thought that once started, the alternator would take care of all electrical loads.

Yes, but the battery was putting so much load on the Alt, that when running the voltage was barely touching 11 volts. when holding a steady rev of about 4K. why did the bike start with such a rooted battery? who knows, but it did, Why did the bike keep running on such a low voltage? again, who knows, but it did.

When the original battery was removed and another from another bike was put it, it started up and ran fine, In hindsight now I realized the Fuel pump did not sound right every time I started it in the morning, with the new battery in place and the ignition switched on, the fuel pump sounded loud and proud, and the engine had a nice quick turn over, not like it has for the last 3 weeks or so.

But the guys are not putting all bets on the battery, just in case the problem is deeper, that's why he kept it yesterday to run it up on the gas analyzer, reset the TPS and the Idle. Do a output check on the alt to check it has not been damaged because of the battery.
And then he'll take it for a ride home for the night and ride it back in the morning to try and confirm that all the bugs have been ironed out .