H - E - L - P !!!! The Front Brakes FROM HELL!!!!!

[Cher]

Well the soap opera that is my 999 experience lately just steams right along.  We have already spent COUNTLESS hours last week (thank you so much fastwin and Webspoke!!!) trying to bleed the front brakes after installing new rotors and pads, then Alan and I have spent the better part of today trying to do the same thing, and still, I got nuthin.'   I mean mush, almost all the way to the throttle grip; if I've got the presence of mind and enough road to land a small plane, I can  pump the front brake half a dozen times and I'll get roughly the same amount of stopping power from the front end as if I were only using the semi-worthless rear brake    WTF?!?!?

Now we've tried everything we know how to do:

1)  We pressurized the front brake system with a Mini - Vac that bled air out of the air out of the system most of the time (plenty of air came out initially - from both left and right brake lines).  We never let the brake reservoir get low and just kept pumping new fluid through the system, literally for hours, until there were no more bubbles.  Slightly less mushy-ness but still essentially worthless.

2)  We examined the bleeder valves on both calipers for leaks, checked the calipers themselves for any signs of damage or brake fluid leaks.  Checked the brake reservoir and brake piston up on the handle bar for leaks; nothing, dry as a bone.

3)  Tried spraying a mist of soapy water on the bleeder valves to see if they were any leaks - more nuthin.' 

The only other things I can tell you about the process is when we bleed the brakes, the reservoir cap is off when the brake lever is pumped, and the bike is on a rear stand so we get a  more horizontal pool of brake fluid in the reservoir (the reservoirs on the superbike are triangular white plastic with a molded "window" fluid level indicator).  The SBK has braided steel brake lines so no possibility there for expansion or distortion.


What else are we missing?  It's going in for scheduled service very soon, but I'd really like to have a better grip on this - pun intended, thank you very much - before I drop it off.

Any suggestions or advice on this brake situation from hell would be greatly appreciated!

Lisa

[webspoke]

Fastwin's account of tying the brake lever to the grip over night to let any residual air bubble out may work. 
Also maybe changing the banjo bolt at the master to one with a bleeder in it, to let out air at the top of the system.   
Not sure it is practical to raise the calipers (or lower the master) without major disassembly.

Worst case my be the master has gone bad, messed up it's seal or something.  Out of ideas after that 

[DesmonsterS4RS]

Have you guys tried reverse bleeding? I remember reading about a procedure that involves sucking the brake fluid up through the lines, and out the master cylinder but I can't remember exactly how this is done. I will see if I can dig something up for you Lisa.

[DesmonsterS4RS]

I found this http://www.moccsplace.com/images/brakes/bleeder/bleeder.htm it might help

[swanny]

I had this issue with my old dirtbike after complete  I ended up taking the caliper off of the rotor then bleeding it.  I was then able to push the pads apart and put them back on the bike.  I guess that I was able to get enough fluid into the system that way.  Maybe I got lucky but my friend has that bike and the brakes still work well to this day. 

Good luck.

Swanny

[Cher]

Thanks very much guys, y'all are awesome  

One other quick question though; we would like to keep the lever pulled in over night.  Should the fluid reservoir cap be on or off or does it even matter?

And Swanny - you are absoltely spot on!  The problem appears to have been not having one of the spring clips completely seated against one series of brake pads (upper pair of the left side caliper).  We took the caliper off from the fork tube, removed the pads, then pushed all four pistons back totally flush with the body of the caliper.  Installation was the revers eof removal (more or less!) and it seems like I've got pressure back in the system, woo-hoo!  Thus the wanting to push the brake lever all the way in over night to try and get that last bit of air totally out 

 Cheers!

P.S.  Swanny, how have you been?!?  Hope all is well  [moto]

[fastwin]

I know one piston on the left caliper was pushed out enough to puke fluid on to the floor. We believe the brake lever was accidentally bumped when the caliper was off the rotor and the pads were out. Result pushed out piston and seal leak causing fluid puke. It did go back in fine and as Lisa said never showed any signs of leakage during the bleed. Got an absolute TON of air through the system using the Mity-Vac pump at first in the process of getting semi solid stream of fluid into and through the calipers. Ditched the pump and then relied on the usual brake bleed program I have used for decades. After pumping the handle (with a full reservoir of fluid) multi times to gain some pressure I would quickly crack the bleed nipple and continue to pump the lever 4-5 times to move fluid then quickly tighten the bleed nipple with the brake lever flush against the grip. Would go back and forth from left to the right caliper and repeat again and again. Always making sure the res was tanked up on fresh fluid. Never did we let it go dry and suck air.

My ZRX1200 did this to a lesser degree and gained the rank of #1 pain in the ass. Not as bad as Lisa's 999 but damn close. No piston "outage" just Galfer wave rotors, SS lines and new pad swap. Stan's comment on the over night pressure helped 99%. Just left the res cover on but not screwed down, pumped the level a dozen times and used a zip tie to hold the lever back. Not too hard but real firm lever pressure. Left it for at least that night and all the next day. Came back and cut the lever free and proceeded with the normal bleed procedure and voila... normal lever pressure. I don't remember much of any air going through the clear plastic catch lines during the bleed. My hunch is the demon air pocket might have been forced out the top under the steady overnight pressure to the system.

It's pretty damn cheap to try it! I'm still thinking there is air in the system and my bet is it's in the upper half. If all else fails there is always Randy McCarter.

[swanny]

I would leave the cap loose so the air can escape but I am not sure if you have to.

Glad you got the brake problem fixed.  They can be a pain.

I have been well.  Just working a lot and going back to Arkansas almost every weekend to help my mother clean up her old house and get situated in her new one.  Thank you for asking.

I hope you, Alan, and Sam are doing well.

P.S. I am going to start riding the YZ again so let me know if you or Alan want to go hit the trails sometime.

Swanny

[♣ McKraut ♣]

i had the supersport front brake go dead on me once, the same night after i just topped it off at ***'s place....  right before i pulled into the parking garage in d-town.  after talking to b8 i zip-tied the lever to the bar overnight parked in my kitchen...popped the cap off it. and the next day it was good-to-go.

though on my s4r i need to figure out my rear brake setup, as it's currently crap...it won't even lock up the rear in gravel.     i still need to try reverse-bleeding.

[fastwin]

Sounds like the rear brakes on Lisa's 999 and mine. It's like maybe they will hold the bike still at a light on a gentle incline... maybe. None of my other bikes have rear brakes that crummy, none. I had Scott at AMS/D check it out and all was good to go. No mention was ever made of it but I think the rear brake pads are made of kryptonite. I have some SBS pads but have not made the swap. I bet the pad swap will help, maybe even a rotor swap but I can't really imagine a Brembo rotor sucking that bad. I am going with new pads as the answer.

[Cher]

Sounds like the rear brakes on Lisa's 999 and mine. It's like maybe they will hold the bike still at a light on a gentle incline... maybe. None of my other bikes have rear brakes that crummy, none. I had Scott at AMS/D check it out and all was good to go. No mention was ever made of it but I think the rear brake pads are made of kryptonite. I have some SBS pads but have not made the swap. I bet the pad swap will help, maybe even a rotor swap but I can't really imagine a Brembo rotor sucking that bad. I am going with new pads as the answer.

My guess is it's the factory type of brake pad Ducati uses on the rear brake; I mean for cryin' out loud - Brembo brakes will usually stop a freightrain.  No excuse for rear brakes not working better.  I agree - gotta be the pads.  If I EVER get my new EBC rotors and HH pads up front to work, I'm thinking of changing the rear pads to EBC as well.



We'll see  [moto]

[Cher]

Just a brief update for those of you keeping track of this train wreck at home:

After leaving the brake lever completely pulled in - held it in place with a ziptie - over-night, it would seem my brakes are BACK!!!  Solid as ever 

'Course I won't know for sure until I can road test it properly... dangit, rain   

Thanks for everyone's help with this - we appreciate it (not nearly as much as our checkbook, of course  ).

[Samsonite]

 

Good to hear   

[Duc L'Smart]

brakes are BACK!!!  Solid as ever  =

Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bryant8]

Glad to hear that the brakes are back in working order.  The zip-tie trick is a nice one for everybody to know when line bleeding become a pain