All About Motor Oil according to George
zarn02:
Well, here it is folks. The weeded and formatted oil thread. I left out a fair amount of the interesting tangents, and tried to minimize occurances of backtracking, and re-answering of questions. Not sure how well it turned out, and the manner in which I combined multiple posts into single posts was a tradeoff, so it may be a bit long and daunting... but here it is. :)
zarn02:
Rickoz:
Just got a new S2R not long ago & will change the oil every 5000km
after each service done by the Ducati shop.
What do you use for motor oil: I will use Moble1 V-Twin.
Why do you use this oil: Allways been happy with Moble1 in my cars [thumbsup]
Georgecls:
Noted you mention using Mobil 1 V-Twin. Highly recommend you consider Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40. Mobil 1 V-Twin is fine for slower turning engines such as most V-Twins. In our higher RPM engines, the use of a 40W full synthetic is much a much more optimum viscosity oil.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
Choice of viscosity depends on ambient though George? Also, Mobil don't agree with your comment about their V-Twin oil. I recognise your qualifications of course.
Georgecls:
Yes, 50W is fine for John Deere Tractors, but not so fine for our engines... But that is from a lube engineer's perspective......... We want to optimize viscosity for the RPM's the engine will be seeing.. Remember, our engines are NOT V-twins as defined by Harley Davidson but much higher revving, higher performance in every respect, with very different lubrication needs.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Georgecls:
And yes, you've discussed oil a coupla times but not with me...........:-)
George
ducpainter:
Quote from: Georgecls
Originally Posted by Georgecls
Yes, 50W is fine for John Deere Tractors, but not so fine for our engines... But that is from a lube engineer's perspective......... We want to optimize viscosity for the RPM's the engine will be seeing.. Remember, our engines are NOT V-twins...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
If our engines are not V-twins, they are certainly L-twins. In the perspective of a lube engineer what is high rpm?
philb:
Quote from: Georgecls
Remember, our engines are NOT V-twins...*
Yes they are. It's two-cylinders, in a 90º vee; that makes it a V-twin.
The whole oil controversy is overrated and overthought. Get any decent quality synthetic or semi-synthetic that is formulated for motorcycle use, in the weight your manual recommends. Change it regularly (about 3-4000 miles), and the filter every second oil change, and don't fret about it.
philb
terry:
Quote from: Georgecls
Yes, 50W is fine for John Deere Tractors, but not so fine for our engines...* But that is from a lube engineer's perspective.........*
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Nobody suggested using a monograde oil though George?
Georgecls:
Re: 50W.. No, we are never talking single grades anymore, just lazy typing on my part. Should have been more exacting in saying a 15W-50 ot 20W-50 but both oils ARE true 50 weight oils at engine operating temperatures. Slipped into engineering talk of operational viscosities...
My reference that our Ducati engines are not V-twins (L-Twin) was tongue in cheek, moreover with the intent of differentiation that our engines are NOT of the HD, Yamaha cruiser, etc. ilk.. Our engines are high speed engines optimized for XXW-40 visosities, vs the slower turning HD V-twin (and of course John Deere Tractors of old) need the XXW-50 viscosity..
As a lube engineering concept, the faster the component, the lower the viscosity required to achieve optimum fluid dynamics. The slower the component (HD), the thicker the viscosity needed to achieve optimum interelationship with bearing surfaces.
The viscosity issue is one of the ongoing battles I have to deal lwith as the mentality of "if two asperins are good, four must be better" applied to "if 10W40 is good then 15W-50 must be better" In most cases it is not... The thicker oil robs horsepower, creates unwanted heat (especially in an air cooled engine), and can/will cause accelerated bearing interface wear as the oil simply cannot keep up with the bearing face speeds.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
dakinebusa:
Them Harley Davidson thingies are roller bearing motors like old BMWs and have entirely different oiling needs from journal bearing high speed motors.
The usual mix of bull semen and bear snot that works just fine in my ole shubblehead would sieze a Ducati motor...
I use gold cap Mobil 1 10-40 car oil in all my bikes and v8s and it delivers all the benefits expected of synthetic oil.
The Motorhead (Bonneville record holder) runs Mobil 1 car oil in his 500+ hp turbo Hayabusas without clutch slip or other problems.
Bike specific oil is great marketing but frequent oil changes are better ;D
zarn02:
terry:
Quote from: Georgecls
Should have been more exacting in saying a 15W-50 ot 20W-50 but both oils ARE true 50 weight oils at engine operating temperatures. Slipped into engineering talk of operational viscosities...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
George, you say that a 50 weight oil is 50 weight at engine operating temperatures, but I thought a 50 weight oil was 50 weight at 100°C ?
dakinebusa:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html
ducpainter:
Quote from: dakinebusa
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html
So is that chart saying that a 20W-50 engine oil is 20weight at ambient or 50weight at 1000C, or both?
Georgecls:
In API engine oil viscosity designation, the "W" is the "winter" rating for the oil. This system was originally designed for mineral based oils, when "multi-viscosity" came into being. Mineral oils are very sensitive to temperature changes: when cooled they thicken, when heated they thin. The old single grade oils were lilke molasis at 0 degrees F. Magic of chemistry came along. Multi vis. How we make a 20W-50 mineral based oil is to start out with 20,000 gallons of 20W oil, then throw in viscosity improvers which are essentially plastic coil springs (plastomers) which expand with temperature, shink with cold. Thus when we heat this 20W oil up to operating temperature, the plastic coil springs expand, giving the 20W oil the apparent viscosity of a 50W oil. When the oil cools down, the coil springs shrink and we are back to our 20W oil we started with.. Which flows like a 20W oil at 0 degrees F. Because it IS a 20W oil..
Now to full synthetics. All the above does NOT apply. To make a 20W-50 API rated oil, we start out with a 50W base stock (essentially) and do nothing. When full synthetics are cooled, they do not thicken as mineral base oils do. Same when heated; they retain their viscosity and do not thin. Which is one of the major positives for synthetic based lubes: they provide the film thickness at higher temps yet allow easy start-up. No VI improvers needed with this oil, although in the real world VI improvers are used minimally to allow large scale production and insurance of exceeding API requirements.. But even in full synthetics, when the range gets to a 0W-50 or so, there is a slug of VI improvers in that mix.. The downside of VI improvers are that they shear, are subject to load shock, etc. NOT as good as a full synthetic molecule...
So, the old wives tail about synthetic oil being thinner is completely innacurate. Full synthetic engine oils are thicker both in base stocks and operationally..
Hope I have clarified. If not, keep the questions coming.
Thank you,
George Morrison, STLE CLS
22080:
So, George, when Ducati put sticker on my engine saying 20W - 50 they where wrong?
Georgecls:
No, for those with a 20W-50 designation by Ducati, by all means run Mfg recommendation.. Mine says 10W-40 and for those whose manual says 10W-40....... (however, methinks this 20W-50 recent recommendation changge is related to Shell's Ducati racing sponsorship and Shell's not making a 10W-40 full synthetic motorcycle oil... Woops, lets change that manual to read 20W-50 don't want to be recommending an oil our sponsor doesn't make!)
Like with Ford and Honda discovering the glitch in CAFE fuel mileage that enabled huge paper gains in corporate cafe by merely switching from a 5W-30 to a 5W-20 engine oil. Millions of dollars of engineering could not equal what the stroke of a pen achieved...
BCT_Dark:
So the book basically recommends virtually all grade of oil for use in their motors.
Are you saying one 'grade' is better than another for use in the Ducati aircooled twins?
Cause the popular ones these days seem to be 10w-40 for water cooled and 20w50 for the aircooled, which I assume to be attributed to the fact that water cooled motors are built with tighter tolerances due to their ability to 'regulate' heat better, and aircooled motors built 'looser' to accomidate the massive fluctuations in heat within the motor.
???
ducpainter:So to put it very simply a 20W-50 full synthetic flows like a 20w mineral at ambient with little or no modification to the base stock?
terry:
Quote from: Georgecls
When full synthetics are cooled, they do not thicken as mineral base oils do.* Same when heated; they retain their viscosity and do not thin.*George Morrison, STLE CLS
That doesn't make sense to me George. You're saying the viscosity is the same at 180°C as it is at 20°C?
Georgecls:
Regarding "it doesn't seem to make sense". As a correlation of the viscosity stability of synthetic lubricants, look to water. Water does not change its viscosity until it reaches boiling point and of course freezing point where all manner of chemistry goes to heck as it not only solidifies, it expands! Irrespective, in its liquid state, water maintains its viscosity right on. Very similarly, a full synthetic base stock is very, very stable. Not to say that it does not slightly increase vis at very, very low temps, as it does, it is that the rate of viscosity change is almost straightline vs. mineral base oils which temperature graph looks like a safe dropped out a 4 story window with cold/heat.. Again, the temperature stability of synthetic base stocks is one of its many virtues in providing optimal viscosity and film thickness throughout the operational range of an engine. (and transmission, etc.)
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
Georgecls:
Re: 10W-40 for water cooled and 50W for air cooled. My air cooled 1000DS manual calls for a 10W40. An XXW-50W is potentially going to create *more* heat and the air cooled relies on the oil for roughly 40% of its heat dissapation.. i.e. the water cooled can much better deal with heat as it has air, coolant and oil to carry heat away... Thus from an objective lube perspective, the air cooled would be more optimally lubed and cooled with a full synthetic XXW-40. Another important point is that a full synthetic engine oil dissapates heat at roughly twice the rate of a mineral based equivalent. Enabling a signifcantly cooler running engine, transmission...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, I'm still a bit confused about the viscosity. If the viscosity doesn't* change with temperature then why is it a 10W-40 and not called a monograde?
Another question is what are you calling fully synthetic because there has been some dispute about which oils can be called that.
BCT_Dark:
Quote from: terry
George, I'm still a bit confused about the viscosity. If the viscosity doesn't* change with temperature then why is it a 10W-40 and not called a monograde?
Another question is what are you calling fully synthetic because there has been some dispute about which oils can be called that.
Terry, read this...
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html
terry:
Quote from: BCT_Dark
Terry, read this...
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html
Yes thanks, but to quote from that article:
Quote
In other words, when the oil is cold it will flow like a 20-weight, but when hot it will act like a 50-weight. In order to overcome the natural thinning that occurs as oil heats up, a component known as a viscosity modifier is added. This is a complex polymer that swells due to heat, the net result being that the oil thins less.
I understand that designation for oils that thin as they heat-up but George is saying that the synthetic oil doesn't change its viscosity with temperature but it's still designated e.g. 10W-40
The part about the oil groups is why I was asking George if he was just referring to Group V oils.
Georgecls:
I realize all this viscosity business is confusing but I will answer questions till the cows come home so you can have a good understanding of this very important point. Yes, you are correct in that we could call Mobil 1 MX4T a straight grade 40W, like the old mineral base straight grades. EXCEPT that we no longer can speak of mineral base chemistry.. Full synthetics, especially Group IV and V oils have an extremely stable natural viscosity characteristic. This actually is quantifiable in its measurement of Viscosity Index. (NOT viscosity, a different term here) A high quality mineral based oil will have a natural Viscosity Index (referred here on as VI) of say 96. 100 is the highest and the bestest best suite crude enables this level. We can now enhance the natural VI by adding our VI improvers from our previous discussionw. Now the enhanced VI for this same oil can be measured at 145 to 150. The higher the VI the more temperature stable the oil is. Now, untreated synthetic group IV or group V will have a natural VI as high as 190, revealing its incredible temperature stable viscosity over a broad temperature range.
Thus, with Mobil 1 MXT, it is made with a 40W base stock yet meets the API testing requirement for cold flow of a 10W. (actually almost a 0W but could you imagine how many folks would buy a 0W-40 motorcycle oill? None.. TOO Thin!!)
This all requires a paradigm shift in thinking in translating Group IV or Group V chemistry from mineral base. The whole API XXW-40 rating program was geared to multi-viscosity mineral based oils..
With synthetics it is a whole different program. Another example of the disparity. A 10W-40 mineral
based oil will be a sollid at around 20 degrees below zero F. Yet the Mobil 1 MX4T still flows freely at 40 below zero F!
Hope I am cleariing the air, if not keep the questions coming..
And yes, for the person who has run a 15W-50 in his/her engine.. No problem. I am just a nit picking lube engineer sharing information. As with Ducati, oil/lubrication is a personal issue. My quest is sharing sound lubrication principles so all can make an informed choice.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
philb:
To try to clarify: The oil weight rating scale still assumes mineral oils that vary widely in visosoty with temperature. So something rated as a straight 40W oil, for instance, is assumed to be as think as a mineral 40W at cold temperatures (i.e. quite thick), and to be as thin as a mineral 40W at high temperatures (i.e. quite thin). A "multi-grade" of, say 10W-40, is as thick as a mineral 10W when cold (i.e much less thick than a cold mineral 40w), and as thin as a mineral 40W when hot.
This does *not* mean that the 10W-40 is actually thicker when hot than it is when cold. A mineral 40W oil is less viscous when hot than a mineral 10W is when cold, because of the large changes in viscosity of mineral oils with temperature.
So the bottom line is that a "multi-weight" oil still does change viscosity with temperature, and gets thinner with heat, just not nearly as much as a natural mineral oil does. This is achieved in mineral oils with additives. With sythetics, it is achieved by actually controlling the composition of the oil during manufacture, so that the size of the hydrocarbon molecules are much more consistent than the wide mixture that you get from natural sources. So a properly manufactured synthetic oil inherently behaves much better.
As for what to use in your bike, do what the manufacturer says. Mine said use 20W-50, so that's what I've been putting in for the last 126,000 miles.
The difference with motorcycle vs. car oils, is that a car oil is assumed to only contact the engine, whereas a motorcycle-formulated oil is expected to also run through the transmission. Transmission gears put a high shear loading on oil, much higher than any part of the engine does, and will chew up a mineral oil in short order, signficantly reducing its effectiveness. Synthetic oils, being inherently more stable and consistent, will not suffer as much, but will still be affected to some extent. Motorcycle oils have additives to resist these higher forces, and thereby enable the oil to last longer.
So, unless you plan to change your oil every 1,000 miles or so (or if you don't actually ride very often and so won't ever put many miles on the bike), I would recommend you go with a motorcycle-specific oil, to prevent premature wear. Some will dispute the need and extra cost, but I have seen and heard of quite a few bike engines which have required early rebuilds due to use of car oils. The old phrase that applies here is "penny wise and pound foolish"
philb
ducpainter:
Only one more question George. Do you work for Mobil? [cheeky]
Georgecls:
No, I do not work for Mobil. I am very much biased towards Mobil from 25+ years of working with lubricants of all manufacture; through the years I have developed about 6 inches of scar tissue where I care not to discuss from using various lubricants in severe applications. i.e. as a lube engineer you make lubricant recommendations; then they fail, it is my fault, not the lubricant. Thus one develops a group of lubricants one can recommend and *know* they will work. Thus my Mobil Bias... I do work for a company that sells Mobil and many other lubricants. But it is not my intent to sell Mobil products on this site, only using them as reference for examples of Group IV synthetics, and I am totally familiar with their performance, formulation, and can speak with authority. There are many wonderful Group IV & Group V motorcycle oils on the market, I just do not have technical background with them.
And regarding the advisability of using a Group IV or Group V synthetic motorcycle oil, as we have discussed, the plastomer VI improvers are subject to shear, even in an automotive engine. Those same VI improvers used in mineral oil based are *really* sheared when they are used in gearbox applications, such as ours. With synthetics using little or none of these, the lubricating qualities of the oil are consistent and of course far superior to mineral based oils in terms of film strength, thermal stability, resistance to oxidation, ease of shifting, rust prevention, etc. etc.
ducpainter:
George I was being, or rather trying to be, funny. I meant no disrespect, and truly was implying nothing. Do you have any first hand knowledge, or other knowledge of Klotz lubricants?
Georgecls:
Ducpainter, your question deserved an answer, as I discussed an awful lot of "Mobil" and not other excellent brands. A deserved question as you have no doubt seen oil pedlers selling their wares online. My presence, my commitment is a major segment of my STLE CLS certification; i.e. to share lubricant knowledge. I was answering your excellent, very relevant question..
Klotz makes excellent products but I do not have first hand knowledge/experience with them.
George Morrison
zarn02:
ducpainter:
And is appreciated, as there is as much myth with regards to lubricants, as fuels, and coatings. For example, I use Klotz because it was described to me as a lubricant that worked under conditions of stress as well as periods of little or no use due to it's "clingabilty"(definitely not a technical term), with absolutely no proof. Some use it because they like the smell. Considering the price per quart there are very possibly better choices.
Georgecls:
And the term "clingability" is indeed a trait that we very much need in engines that may be idle for extended periods.* i.e. winter for us in the midwest..* Metal attraction is a natural, inherent aspect of Group IV and Group V synthetics.* They will cling to metal surfaces for a much longer period of time vs. mineral based oils, especially after engine shut down.* Mineral based oils are vaporized quickly in the hot sections of the engine; cylinder bores, etc.* The areas where we need lubrication immediately on start-up.* Synthetics, with their higher flash points, remain on those surfaces and provide a lubrication boundary layer on start-up.* Excellent corrosion protection is also provided during this period.* This is true for most all Group IV and Group V engine oils...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, thanks for explanation on viscosity. Most guys dread an 'oil' thread but this one is different and good stuff. If I can refer you to your earlier statement about Mobil V Twin oil not being suitable for the Duc engine, Mobil actually say it's suitable for extreme operating conditions like racing. Read here.
Why is your opinion different please?
Georgecls:
Mobil V-Twin can certainly be used in our engines. However, with such a heavy operational viscosity, horsepower loss and heat will be the two by-products. I know this sounds strange but in racing applications we really do not stress an optimal viscosity engine oil. 99% of the lubrication in our engines is hydrodynamic lubrication. Hydrodynamic lubrication is where the person is water skiing on a very thin water film being pulled by a vehicle equipped with Goodyear Aquatread tires. In areas where one would think would not be hydrodynamic such as camshafts, valves, it is still metal floating on an oil film; hydrodynamic lubrication. So, even in racing applications, as long as we have the oil viscosity in the engine that it was designed for, we will then achieve maximum horsepower, best engine cooling and performance using the lowest optimal viscosity engine oil. On a dyno, one can see as much as 1 to 3 horsepower gain from just engine oil viscosity change. Which is why 99% of all NASCAR engines are running a 0W-30 engine oil. Same with Formula 1, Grand am, etc. are all reducing operational viscosities. Two years ago all the Grand Am racers were having heating issues at Daytona 24 as it was unusually warm. Except one. All of the Toyota engined cars were running Mobil 1 15W-50 except one which was running Mobil 1R 0W-30. It finished 3rd and the others were waay back, laps down. . For these same reasons we have been discussing they are changing from their previous 50W and 60W mineral oils to lower viscosity full synthetic engine oils.
Driving short distances, stop and go, will stress engine oil far more than racing applications.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
hiero:
hey george, great thread so far!! I love me some engineer speak when it comes to stuff I actually care about! ;)
I had a question about something I heard about before in my oil research days...
I read somewhere (maybe from bobistheoilguy forums), that the smaller the spread in numbers in the viscosity ratings(20w50 would be 30 difference, 15w50 would be 35), the less prone to shear the oil is. Now that's pared down to very simplistic terms, but what's the word on this?
A bit of a moot point in this discussion as we're looking at 10w40 and 20w50, but something of interest to me nonetheless...
Georgecls:
An excellent question, regarding viscosity spreads. With a mineral based oil, the further the spread, the more susceptible the oil will be to viscosity improver shear, shock, etc. VI improver shock is a very real, temporary condition, an almost smashing of the VI improver. With a large amount of VI improver this can lead to spalling, high wear rates, especially in engine/gearbox combinations such as ours. With a full synthetic, depending on the sophistication of the base stock, minimal VI improver use provides for a very shear-resistant lubricant. Even in a 10W-40 spread, it is possible to achieve this performance through base stock choice alone. However, as I said previously, in large scale production small amounts of very high quality VI improvers may be used to provide a greater margin of assurance that the end products will far surpass API classification. The "expensivie" VI improvers are extremely shear resistant and when combined with a high quality synthetic base stock are synergistic in their bottom line performance. Additionally there are new base stocks which are blended with normal group IV and V which provide the same physical action as VI improvers but are completely impervious to shear and provide chemistry enhancement to the base stocks in terms of film strength, oxidation resistance and overall performance.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
hiero:
So george, how long then with the superior bases and VI stock in synthetics, especially newer synthetics, can you really go before the oil begins to feel the effects of shear and viscosity break down compared to mineral oils? Basically, what is a reasonable oil change interval if you use synthetics?
I tend to stick with a 3-4000 mile interval even with a full synthetic just because I like to keep tabs on what's going on with the innards of my engines AND because I work and feel it's an expense I can afford, but can this go significantly longer with synthetics (and heck, with mineral oils too?) or is it just not a good idea? (I probably won't change my habits no matter the answer, but I'm sure a lot of people who are reading this would love to know!) I have heard people speak conspiracy when it comes to the 3000 mile rule and oil companies just want to sell more product... would be nice to know the science...
Georgecls:
Excellent question..... Re: "how long can we now go with these super base stocks and additive packages?" As our discussion has evolved, we have shear resistant base stocks, high performance additive packages, oxidative resistant lubricants but the oils are still subject to contamination from the power cycle and gear box wear. You have heard for years about doubling, tripling ODI's with synthetic oils vs. a mineral based engine oil in autos. The most significant need for changing oils IS contamination. Synthetic lubricants have the capabilities to last *much* longer than a mineral based oil but are still subject to the same contamination issues that confront mineral based oils. However, one of the prime sources of contamination is blow-by. Even in a very new, tight engine we will get some level of blow-by occuring; exhaust by-product gasses are going to get into the engine oil. Exhaust gasses will bring all manner of contaminates ranging from acids, soot, water, and even raw gasoline. With a full Group IV or V synthetic base stock, we do have significantly lower levels of combustion by-product contamination. Piston rings require an oil film for their sealing action. At & near top dead center the cylinder walls are at constant elevated temperatures. Mineral based oils continually burn off, leaving the top 1/4 to 1/2 inch of cylinder wall essentially dry, with no oil film. If you have ever overhauled a gasoline engine with many miles on it you can many times actually see this area of high wear. Correspondingly, with no oil film, blow-by occurs until the rings encounter the oil film on their trip down the cylinder wall. With the oil film, sealing then occurs. Synthetic base stocks will live at higher temps and provide an oil film nearly to TDC, thus providing an oil film for the rings to seal. Thus when ignition occurs, the rings have an oil film, seal, and very little blow-by occurs. Additionally, this is where the measurable power increase at the rear wheel occurs with synthetic engine oils. One can actually *feel* the difference in performance with the right hand! We are now deriving all of the power from combustion. And our engine oil is staying much cleaner as blow-by is greatly reduced, easily enabling doubling, and even longer ODI's on automotive/truck applications.
That said, unfortunately we have a gearbox to contend with and some Ducati have wet clutches. Both of these components add a large amount contaminants to our oil, which will create wear. Especially the gearbox as the steel wear metals will be a super abrasive for any yellow metal in our engines.. Sooo, bottom line. Yes, we could theoretically significantly extend our ODI's with the oil's capaibilities but are very much limited with the high level of contaminants the oil gets from the gearbox and clutch (if wet). So regular ODI's are in order. Hey, it's only 3 or 4 quarts.. :-)
A method to *know* what is taking place in an engine is to run an engine oil analysis to determine contaminant levels. Oil analysis is the method we use for cars, trucks and off highway equipment to determine optimum ODI intervals. In some cases we have over the road trucks going 100,000 miles between changes (filter at 50,000), with oil analysis being the driver. Then one *knows* exactly what is going on in the engine. Oil analysis kits are relatively inexpensive ($15 or so) and invaluable in determining engine status. Like taking a walk inside your engine.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
hiero:
so george, what do you know about filtration then (I'm thinking a whole lot)? It seems to me that there are just tons of filters out there and the ol' cut the things in half and look at what they're made of test can only give you so much. It seems a lot of upper crust filters use multiple layers of differing materials (ie paper, glass, synthetics, and apparently amsoil has announced the new use of nanofibers) to achieve the best flow and filtration... what's the word?
I remember a few years ago when bobsitheoilguy set up some cool flow test rigs, but was never quite sure on the scientific validity of it all, sure did set up some interesting data though...
Georgecls:
Yes, there are filters and then there are filters... Filters range from near worthless to pretty good. Unfortunately there are not "Superb" engine oil filters currently available from anyone at this point. It becomes a cost vs. practicality issue in that a state of the art full microglass (sometimes referred to as synthetic) element is a very sophisticated design utilizing stainless screens front and back of the glass medium (it will not support itself as paper does) which leads to extremely high cost of manufacture. Which makes them cost prohibitive when we change them with frequency. But boy do they ever filter! 1 micron beta 1000 (absolute, absolute) With paper we are lucky to get a 30 micron Beta 50... (70% +/- filtration of 30 microns and larger)
Paper elements, on the other hand, are very cost effective but little else. Generally 50% of a paper element will not allow fluids to even pass through it while the other half stops 30 microns and larger pretty well but not much in the way of smaller particles. Combination glass/paper blends are coming into the market with much better flow capacities (maybe 80 to 90% will actually flow fluids) and filtration yet can be reasonably priced in that they use paper as its support; but it is a blend and not anywhere near the performance level of a full microglass element. One still has to be careful about brands as some adverrtise all levels of performance yet still use lower quality internal construction and charge large dollars for their products. Do I hear Profit Center?
Some new filters are coming on market as I type this (literally) which we will soon have to do di-sections and compare with standards. I hate to say, "stay tuned" but in the next weeks we will hopefully have some new very high quality spin on filters to discuss..... Hopefully with applications for our Ducati...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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