All About Motor Oil according to George
zarn02:
moddedtunnel:
The newly reformulated Mobil V-Twin oil looks pretty nice @ just 17.7 centistrokes . That oil was like 20-21 cSt's in the past in which was far too viscous for any of my engines . I like what I see in the new formula though as it's quite a bit thinner .
Most bike 10w-40 mineral oils fall between 14.4 -15.8 so the V-twin is looking pretty good depending on usage .
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSE2PVLMOMobil1_Motorcycle_Oils.asp
For the same price or possibly even less , the Maxima Maxum 4 15w-50 gets my vote though .
There are a couple nice , light built 10w-50's around also . Liquid Cosworth , ELF are true PAO/ester blended oils " group IV - V " . I think Motorex of Switzerland makes a 10w-50 also .
It's been shown in tests that using some sylicate detergents by themselves or with the sulphonates in lower phoforus engine oils reduce wear over a sulphonate detergent higher phos oils . The near future will bring lower phos/zinc oils and some are using the salycate detergents now . I believe Liquid Cosworth's wording relates to such use .
Oils are always changing .
Georgecls:
I have reviewed literally hundres of MX4T 10W-40 used engine oil analysis (including those from my own 1000DS) and the oil has always on vis, very much the same as it went in; in the 15Cst region, a rock solid 40W. The oil is very shear resistant, especially in that it was formulated for use in gearbox application, with a minimal use of shear resistant VI improver. Thus your concern of Mobil 1 MX4T and possible shearing should hopefully be allayed.....
Regarding esters and their hygroscopic nature, I have no knowledge of a chemistry differentiation in those esters used as automotive blends. An ester is an ester.. Esters are very agressive, excellent natural detergency, excellent film strength, enable good additive dispersancy and of course seal swell. In that agressive nature comes a natural tendency to adhere to anything, including water.. The potential for corrosion has always been an issue with any ester blend. Which is one reason why Mobil and others have reduced ester content to minimal or none in their engine/gearbox oil formulations. Mobil 1 auto used to contain 10% ester, 0% in current formulation..
Mobil's published viscosities are one thing, real world quite another... Both MX4T and V-Twin are mid grade products in real world oil analysis results. Thus V-Twin 20W-50 is not a "light" 50W, from what I have been seeing but a mid-grade 17/18 cst viscosity. Mobil and other manufacturer's published specs are "representative" and all are caveated with "these may not represent exact performance numbers" or some such legaleze...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
mflas:
Thank you for your patient, diadactic approach, and all of the information.* I have a couple of easy questions.
Is there a good source for Neo magnetics?* Are they dangerous to electronics?* Do you need to purchase them on line.* Are there any other magnetics easily available that one can use?
Would it be good to do an oil/filter change* prior to the 600 mile service* (to the Mobil MXT4* 10-40) for my new S2R1000?* Would a Neo magnetic be better than an additional oil change for a new bike?
When your bike is cold and upright is the oil window filled?* From the factory mine is filled (well above the highest mark) when cold.* It's a little distrubing.
Georgecls:
If you do a searc on this thread there are many excellent Neo sites available. Just a few pages back several were mentioned. I obtain my Neo directly from China for specific appllications and do not sell nor do I have a relationship with anyone selling Neo. Sorry. And no, it MUST be a good high qualityh Neodymium. Neo is what made this whole filter thing possible. Even going through the thin metal surround of an oil filter *greatly* reduces normal magnets to virtually no effective field whatsoever. Neo's with their incredible power, will not only penetrate the oil filter housing and provide very effective filtration for ferrous metals from 1 angstrom on up through chunks and clunks (virtually supercharges an oil filter's performance; from a shaky 30 micron and larger to 1 ansgtrom and larger...A Bit of an increase....) A regular magnet, even samarian cobalt, not worth the time/money..
And no, there is no affect on electronics with its location way down below the engine; however, it may also assist in tripping stop light activators..
Yes, it sounds like your oil is over-filled. Just loosen the drain plug and drain a bit out to achieve the proper level.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
<Several posts concerning new oil filters cut.>
Georgecls:
At this point it looks like July (ed: of 2006) and some very high quality filters should be available for our Ducati!
I am most excited, finally, to see high quality filtration medium being used in our Class 6 filter.
I have no affiliation with the company manufacturing the filters.
One of the The manufacturers is Amsoil.....
The new filter is NOT yet available; the current Amsoil cycle filters are of the same quality as the Ducati OEM filter so no current advantage. The new style filter is in a whole new level of filtration.
And no, I am NOT an Amsoil distributor, never have been one and never thought I would be sharing Amsoil information but as they say, if someone has a better mousetrap; it looks like Amsoil is soon going to have just that.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
moddedtunnel:
Respectfully , i do know what I am talking about when it comes to engine oils . I do not make these things up and have seen the Mobil 10w-40 shear in a big way many , many times before .
Please look at the date of my post above , then take a look at this thread and date of the Mobil 10w-40 analysis / post used in a Suzuki V-Twin for only 3200 miles . It came in after my post about shearing .
For those that are not familier with SUS viscosity numbers , the 64.3 viscosity at the end of this 3200 miles equals 11.4 centistrokes . If an oil is not thick enough to achieve a 12.49 centistroke value , it's classed as a 30wt . This oil was sheared to a 30wt in a liquid cooled engine of only 650cc displacement and was not run in a harsh manor .
Scroll down to the Jpeg photo further down the thread .
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000061;p=0
There's a number of very well made 15w-50's available to use in the Ducati . I firmly believe the best value IMO for these bikes , in the Mobil line up anyway and cost per quart vs miles of use, is the 15w-50 Mobil Extended Performance car oil .
Maxima , Silkolene , Klotz , Motul 15w-50's are oils that can be purchased for 7-8 dollars per liter from the lower priced internet sources other strong values and are premium pao/ester blends , all with very strong additive packages .
moddedtunnel:
The SAE Viscosity classification charts show 50 wts run from 16.3 to 21.9 centistrokes . Most of the mineral based 20w-50's are coming in at 21-22 centistrokes - new oil .
So when i say the Mobil 15w-50 EP car oil / 20w-50 bike oils are lighter 50 weights at around 17- 18.0 cSt , they quite simply are less than a middle 50wt since 19.4cst* is the exact middle of the 50wt chart . That makes them closer to a top 40wt than a top 50wt .* Eight trend analysis's of a friends 240 rear wheel HP bike using 15w-50 Mobil EP shows it starts at 18.2 with the base line analysis . All oil used had the same batch number . This is just a simple mathematical answer to the " lighter 50wt topic " .
Let's progress onto speaking of HT/HS values of a given oil . If a given 14 centistroke 40wt has an HT/HS " higher needed for transmission " of 4.2 when new and a new oil 10.0 centistroke 10w-30 has 3.2 HT/HS when new , what does the community think the HT/HS of a sheared down 40wt thats in the 11 centistroke range is going to be ?
Any guesses ?
Georgecls:
Regarding the 30W viscosity for MX4T 10W-40; the question that I had asked previously: was there any fuel dilution detected in the analysis result? I *have* seen Mobil 1 MX4T viscosity in the 30W, even 20W viscosity range, but in each ease there was a significant level of fuel dilution causing the reduction in viscosity.. As I shared previously, I have a file full of MX4T's that are right on vis, thus my question on fuel dilution......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
moddedtunnel:
<.5 percent " less than half of one percent " in the above link/analysis as a great example of fuel not interfering with viscosity . The high flash point coincides with little to no fuel present .
Less than one half of 1%* , is very little fuel for these extremely light tensioned ring sets used in motorcycle engines .
Had the flash point been lower , the actual amount of fuel shown might need to be second guessed but the flash was high and the lowered viscosity shows permanent shear of the viscosity index improvers used in the 10w-40 .
On the analysis's you have seen , are you quite certain that the oil has not already sheared and has thickened back up due to oxidation ? Thats quite common with many synthetic oils dependent on use , heat , blowby and effects of emission equipment and general engine design differences .
A motorcycle engine would be an equal test platform for both shear and oxidative stability due to the high localized heat inside the engines and of course , higher oil sump temps than automobile engines.
Just a thought on something that might have been overlooked previously .
Georgecls:
Not to belabor, but I review between 200 and 300 analysis results a day and oxidation level is one of the key components for certain operations as certain staff like to do "Parker Pen" oil changes and oxidation level is an immediate giveaway. And yes, oxidation levels are right on the money for the Mobil 1 MX4T analysis results I have reviewed, within a point or so of virgin. I daily review Mobil Delvac 1 diesel oil analysis results with 100,000+ miles and oxidation has never been an issue except in cases of severe overheating, oil cooler blockage, etc..
And certainly a fuel dilution of less than .5 would not alter viscosity a grade, I agree.. No answers on my end... You have analysis reflecting out of grade, I have analysis reflecting in grade..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
moddedtunnel:
Quote from: 05-s2r
Who would have thought that the thicker "more protective" oil would actually make the engine run hotter ...... great informative thread* [thumbsup]
Where have you seen any quantified results showing the lighter 15w-50 Mobil EP with it's more or less advanced additive package in terms of reducing the friction coefficient* causes an air cooled engine to run hotter than with the Mobil 10w-40 ?
Were talking just 3.5 - 4.0 centistrokes difference on new oil at 100 celcius between the two here .
On long high speed tracks without many turns and shifting , an F1 Team will use a heavy 30wt . On short tracks with many gear changes placing the engine on heavy load they generally use a light 50 weight because of the increased temp and viscosity thinning at high temps with heavily loaded engines . I don't believe the average Ducati cruises down the interstate in top gear everytime it's ridden .
The bearings last longer that way .
I will be back with a viscosity chart showing how elevated temps thins oil down .
Georgecls:
I have run my 1000DS Ducati on the dyno with both Mobil 1 MX4T and 20W-50, with MX4T indicating a 1 to 2 horsepower gain It is simple viscometrics. Churning a 50W simply requires more energy, robs horsepower and creates heat. With synthetic oil's natural film strength, we simply do not need to be churning a 50W when a 40W full synthetic will provide more than ample film strength. 99.9% of our Ducati lubrication is hydrodynamic. Most Ducati engines are optimized for a 10W-40 viscosity oil, as indicated in the owner's/maintenance manual. Thus we have "documentation" that Ducati's recommended viscosity for most of their engines is 10W-40.
With a mineral based oil, the need for a heavier viscosity may well be true, but with a Group IV/V synthetic, we have viscosity temperature stability providing the required oil film. As a lubrication engineer I live with "thicker oil must be better" thought process each and every day. In my 30+ years experience in lubrication, viscosity optimization (especially so with synthetics as we can generally utilize lower viscosity lubes and still achieve optimimum film thickness at operational temperatures) is key for maximum component, lubricant life and the highest level of efficiency. Which, on a Ducati, spells fun........
George Morrison
moddedtunnel:
You nor George obviously fully understood my post .
Post topic was Mobil 10w-40 bike oil vs 15w-50 Mobil EP , not vs Mobil 20w-50 bike oil .
The 15w-50 formula which is far different than the bike oil quite likely has a reduced friction C/O . I think it would par up very , very well with the 10w-40 in max HP made on a same day dyno testing .
Mobils 0w-40's additive pack is very similar to the 15w-50 and the 0w-40 has made more HP than a few 30wt synthetics during testing of a Ford dyno mule .
I certainly know and understand the viscometrics and relationship / recipe for HP and a higher friction modified , slightly heavier oil can and has made as much or more HP than a lower weight , less friction modified oil .
Quite simple to understand , really .
Thanks for typing that post out for the other members , George ;)
Jethro:
I think I've got a new question here George and I've read the whole thread but didn't see it mentioned. From what I've read I understand that the Group IV 'real' synthetic has a lower pour point than a Group III oil that's called a synthetic but isn't really. This looks like* in cold weather the Group IV oil hasn't got as thick as a Group III oil so reaches the bearings faster, but I'm wondering whether the oil thickening as it cools is beneficial to the rockers as these are a high wear point on Ducati engines. Perhaps the thicker oil would stay on the rockers and provide lubrication until the oil can be pumped to the head on cold start-up particularly for bikes left standing for long periods?
scoobydoo:
Throughout this thread a "group" nomenclature has been used to descibe the oils i.e. Group III, Group IV. My question is where do you find this "group number"? I was at the store yesterday and looked on several bottles, including Mobile 1 X4Rt and I did not see any sort of marking saying it was Group IV. I ended up buying "Castrol R3 Superbike" 5w40. It claims to be a "fully synthetic" and is offering a rebate to make it 1/2 the price of Mobile 1. I just can't seem to find out what group oil it is.
Georgecls:
Jethro, excellent question regarding a mineral based oil getting "thicker" when cold to provide better rocker lubrication on startup. However, "viscosity" as defined is its ability to be pumped. Thus, on cold start-up, we need the ability for fresh oil to be pumped to the extremities of the engine, including the rockers.. Thus we need the most temperature consistent oil, viscosity-wise, so that on startup we have oil flow immediately taking place.. Additionally, a "thick" oil at the rockers is not going to be able to "keep up" with the velocity of the rockers.. It would seem to make sense to have thick oil there, but in reality, no.
Regarding the Group IV/V stating on the bottle... Excellent question, very common sense: however, no one is putting it on the bottles at this point. All Castrol "synthetics" are NOT Group IV/V but group III. The reason the Castrol was so much less is that it was not a Group IV.. At this point the only Group IV/V oils are Mobil 1, Amsoil, Red Line and other lesser known motorcycle specific oils. One must examine the MSDS and PDS for each oil to decipher exactly what the base stock used in each oil is.. Hopefully this will change with time and true synthetic oil manufacturers will advance to specific delineation of the base stock used in making the finished oil.
Again, Excellent questions.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Jethro:
Fair enough about leaving thick oil on the rockers George - just a thought I had to a problem Ducati don't appear to have solved yet. I'm interested in your last comment that all Castrol oils are Group III as I've just filled my Monster 1000 with R4. I had read this thread and would have taken your advice about MX4T but it's not available in UK so I looked at the data sheets for what I could buy. Shell Ultra 4T has a pour point of -36C but the R4 has a pour point of -51C so I thought that was a better oil for cold start up. The new R4 is labelled as 10w-40 although previously it was 5w-40. I've read that it has been reformulated or is that just marketing hype do you think - a bit like 'new'washing powders getting your clothes cleaner? ;)
With that pour point are you sure it's now not GroupIV?
Thanks if you can comment George - Jethro
Georgecls:
Jethro, thank you: you are correct... The oil you purchasedin the UK is not available here in the U.S. and indeed appears to be a Group IV... You are right on target with your examination of the PDS of each and have evaluated the oils correctly... Excellent job..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
GregorMac:
George, as with everyone else, I am very grateful for the time and energy you have put into answering questions on this thread. You mentioned earlier several 'lesser known manufacturers' are also making Group IV/V synthetic oils. Can you say who? I use Bardahl (it's local) 100% Synthetic Motorcycle Racing Oil, 15W-50 (will be changing to 10W-40). I was just curious if you had any experience with this oil, or family of oils. I e-mailed their tech. guy to find out the make up.
Georgecls:
I had not heard the name Bardahl for years! I did not know the company was still in business. Bardahl manufactured engine/transmission additives for years. Their spokesperson was Brocerick Crawford (waaay before your time!), the star of a highway patrol police show. This big old Buick would side up in front of the camera, Broderick would get out and say "I use Bardahl engine oil additive, so should you"... Classic stuff...
I went to the Bardahl site and was not able to download the PDS or MSDS for the product so I do not know if the oil is indeed Group IV/V or Group III.. The site says 100% synthetic but we know what that means: nothing...
So, unfortunately, no information on my part on your Bardahl oil.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
battlecry:
Concerned about oil dilution. Checked the bike today and it looked like there was more oil than I thought I put in. So I siphoned out about 300cc of oil and have it set aside. I'd like to see if it is gas (rich mix) or I messed up the refill. Will the gas stratify out of the oil? Will it evaporate out? Any way to tell besides smelling it? Bike runs fine and plugs do not indicate a rich mixture.
Georgecls:
No, if gasoline is present it will not "settle out" or give any indication other than odor. There will be no "visible" indicator. You could have the engine oil analyized at a lab and the results will indicate positively if gasoline is or is not present in the oil. Cost of analysis is generally around $20; the oil analysis results will also provide levels of wear metals, additive treat levels, viscosity, etc.
And yes, if one does have an injector weeping badly, it will end up in the oil indicated as increased volume. The problem is that the excess gasoline washes down the cylinder wall, greatly increasing ring, piston and cylinder wall wear rates.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
battlecry:
Thanks for the reply, George. I had a thought that if I heat up the beaker gently with a light bulb for a few days I'd be able to tell by the reduced volume if it was fuel dilution. It probably is oil drain from the oil cooler but I'll keep an eye out for it.
Georgecls:
Once the fuel gets into chemical solution with engine oil, it is difficult to release from the oil.* It would be extremely rare to have any level of engine oil increase related to fuel dilution without the engine exhibiting some sort of corresponding symptom...* *As in big time roughness, inability ro idle, etc..* It would definitely not be a smooth running Ducati engine...* Small amounts of fuel dilution are normal; however, oil level changes would be undetectable..
George Morrison
Georgecls:
The new Amsoil filter is the one I was aluding to, however the one listed on the web site is not it.. On paper (actually SAE papers presented on the medium, which is what caught my attention) the filter looks superb. I am going to run oil analysis on my 1000DS with OEM, then Pure, then the new Amsoil and will publish the results. When and if the Amsoil Ea comes available.
Hopefully all are aware that I have *no* affiliation with Amsoil. However, this filter's medium performance has the potential to far exceed that of the OEM paper element and now gives us a premium, ultra fine filter available where we had none just a few months ago. If someone is manufacturing a superior oil filter for our Ducati, I will be first in line, irrespective of manufacture..
At this point Kudos to Amsoil for manufacturing what looks like a very exciting (for a lube engineer), completely new concept in filtration mediium. If/when it is available...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
<Lots of rambling cut.>
Georgecls:
Thumper, regarding your original question:" My Ducati has a dry clutch and does not require the same oil that regular sports bikes use. But can I still use that oil even if it's not required?" Yes, Thumper, you can use the same oil required by sport bikes which have wet clutches. Real, solid answer........
"I'm kind of stuck in the middle. We can't use regular motorcycle oil because of the dry clutch, and we can't use HD oil because we don't have V-Twins. So what the freak oil do we use?HuhHuh"
You are not stuck in the middle Thumper. You *can* use regular synthetic motorcycle oil. It is as simple as that... I hope this is clear and concise enough for you........
George Morrison, STLE CLS
<George goes to the hospital. George gets out of the hospital. All is well again.>
Oldy1978:
Glad your ok, its good to see around again and that your in full spirit.
I've been waiting for your return to ask how the stainless steel micronic oil filters compare to conventional oil filters in our application?
Scott's Performance sells them but I believe K & P Engineering is the manufacturer.
http://www.scottsperformance.com/products.php?PartType=3
http://kandpengineering.com/
The same kind of setup is used on the F-16 for oil and hydraulic fluid but with differential pressure indicators to show when the filter is clogged. Most systems have bypass valves to continue flow even if the fluid is dirty.
Georgecls:
I have a very, very small database to share information (two oil analysis/particle counts) however, the results are consistent with what I have seen with other stainless filters. There was absolutely no discernable difference beteen the metal screen and OEM paper. The actual particle counts for the Scott with 1500 miles on the used oil were >4 microns: 76,9252 particles. >6 microns 30,786 particles, >14 microns 1,206 particles. >25 microns 233 particles, >50 microns, 43 microns, >100 microns 6 particles... Which again, are almost identical to my particle count results with a Ducati OEM filter.......
Bottom Line: save your money and continue to use OEM oil filters. There ARE (promised in July: no filters as of today) some new filters coming out that will significantly increase filter perfomance without caveats, reasonably priced. When/If these new filters come available I will publish their particle count results so we can emperically evaluate their pafrticle count performance vs. OEM..
Sorry to be so tardy in my response, still recovering a bit.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Duc Huntin:
Hi George,
I have read this thread with great interest and wish to thank you for all that you have contributed here. I also am happy to read things are improving quickly for you since your accident.
I have a question regarding oil weight that arose after reading a copy of Ian Falloon' "Desmoquattro Performance Handbook" today at the local bookstore. In the book he brings up the issue of oil weight in Ducatis and specifically addresses synthetic oils. He points out that running synthetic 10w-40 led to early bearing failure in his race bike and also cautioned against it's use in Ducati streetbikes. He has done oil analysis with labs and the evidence has pointed him towards 20W-50 oil because of the extreme pressures the Duc bearings apparently see in the connectings rods. He also mentions that the tolerances in the Duc engine are greater than those one might typically expect in a modern cycle engine, which underscores the need for a thicker oil.
I guess what i'm asking is-do you think that the argument is valid in regard to the older style Ducatis- 748/916/750/900? I understand the benefits of running a 10W-40 and have read the thread, but if severe bearing stress and large clearances are an issue on the older Ducatis do you think one might be better off with 20W-50 in these bikes?
ducpainter:
Answered.http://www.ducatimonster.org/smf/index.php/topic,38314.msg440178.html#msg440178
zarn02:
Duc Huntin:
Well yes and no Ducpainter. The posts you point to are where George basically says that a 20W-50 is fine to run if that is the manufacturers recommendation. He also points out that the shadow of race sponsors might be an influence as well, which suggests some doubts to the absolute truth in which oil may be the best fit. I wanted to pry into this a little more beyond reassurances that 20W-50 is acceptable, as I was hoping we could get into a discussion of short-term vs long term benefits.
For example some possible short term and long term benefits might be that while 10W-40 synthetic may lower operating temperatures and improve transmission shifting, it might also decrease bearing life and transmission gear life in the long run. I am not saying it does, but I wouldn't mind hearing a more detailed opinion on the topic from George.
My 2000 SS750 manual made mention of 10W-40 and 20W-50, but the engine design was clearly not nearly as modern, or tolerances as tight, as the redesigned 2 valvers that debuted in 02 and 03. I can see the possibility of Ducati suggesting a switch to 10W-40 to realize some short term benefits at the expense of long term durability. I mean after all, how many folks put 50k plus miles on a Ducati? Sure some do, but not in big enough numbers to outweigh potential benfits in the short-term.
It would be great if we could so an oil analysis between 10W-40 and 20W-50 on a 900cc two-valve and a new 1000cc two-valve and see how they react over a long period.
ducpainter:
I guess it answered it for me. I've been using 20w-50 for six years and 25K with no apparent ill effects, and I'm not messing with success. I don't disagree with the premise that sponsors do influence what flows downhill, and that 10w-40 might be the correct oil for our engines.
Georgecls:
We are splitting hairs in the discussion of a full, real Group IV/V synthetic 40W vs 50W discussions. We have been discussing "optimal" viscosities.. The use of a heavier viscosity Group IV or V will not create issues, , will provide superb lubrication but as for increasing connecting rod bearing life, tough call. Rod and main bearing life is particularly affected by a too heavy viscosity in that we can experience the inability of the fluid to "keep up" with the surface speed differential that could exist during high revolution operations. We can experience fluid "shear" where the thicker oil actually loses its coherency, losing its viscosity for just a moment, allowing metal to metal to occur. As we previously discussed, 99% of our lubrication is hydrodynamic, i.e. the guy wake-boarding behind the Goodyear Aqua Tred car on 1/4 inch of water..
So, we try to use the "optimum" viscosity to achieve the best hydrodynamic fluid balance, the highest fluid strength and a viscosity which will in turn protect against speed differential shearing.
Alll diesel engines use an XXW-40W oil. These are relatively low speed engines, turning a maximum 2,100 rpms in most applications. However, the difference in fuel burn is huge. In a gasoline engine, fuel is ignited by the spark plug and results in the fuel air mixture "burn" process. A relatively "soft" energy dispersion. In a diesel engine the ignition is a result of heat and pressure, resulting in a literal "explosion". This produces a violent initial thrust that can literally crush a connecting rod bearing where a low viscosity oil may be present (fuel dilution). Note that most every diesel engine manufactrured, the optimum viscosity recommendation is an xxW-40W. The 40W handles a 1,000+ horsepower diesel engine violent combustion process just fine. Connecting rod bearings can live to 1,000,000+ miles...
My case is that our 40W is one very robust viscosity, certainly capable of handfling the stress of a relatively "soft" burn process, for those engines that designate an xxW-40 as recommended oil. I have seen far more connecting rod bearings showing signs of stress from using too high a viscosity vs. too low a viscosity. Most engine failure that I do tear-down failure analysis are of course mechanical but in those few that really are purely lubricant related (not from fuel dilution, anti-freeze or other) are a result of the bearing speeds exceeeding the oil viscosity and its aility to "keep up" with the bearing speed differentials.. Synthetic oil has some incredible level of film strength, demonstrated in its ability to protect turbine bearings and gearboxes that normally run in the 38,000 rpm level, with 5 weight viscosity. For tens of thousands of hours. For an engine that is required an XXW-50W, then that is the oil to use.
And a re-remind that there are synthetics and there are those quasi-synthetics.......
George Morrrison, STLE CLS
Duc Huntin:
Thanks for the great reply George, as this is more of what I was looking for. You make a good point with the diesels that's easy to forget sometimes.
I don't suppose you have any wisdom on the differences in wear and need for lubrication in plain bearings vs roller/ball bearings? I know the two-valvers went to plain bearings in some areas of the motor when they were updated and I was just curious how the two differ in lubrication requirements.
Thanks again.
Georgecls:
Duc Huntin: Excellent question and I hope you are sitting down.. The lubrication of both plain and roller/ball bearings is hydrdynamic and essentially the same. (tje guy on the wake-board with a 1/4 inch of water supporting him) The EHL calculation (engineering calculation for optimum viscosity) for each is very slightly different but both are based on bearing size, speed, and operating temperarures... Each bearing design has its pros an cons but plain bearings are able to withstand much higher loading than a roller/ball designs. i.e. plain bearings are used on large CAT equipment for loaders, bulldozers where high impact loading occurs. A roller/ball type bearing would be crushed in those applications. Roller/balls have their applications, certainly anywhere high speed, low loading occurs. But not exclusively, as example turbo-charger bearings: they are plain bearings which see 20,000 to 30,000 rpm, incredibly high heat, yet live long lives...
The bottom line is that in each case if one uses the optimum viscosity high quality oil in each, both bearing styles should provide long service life with little or no wear differential in that the plain bearing is continually riding on that wonderful film of oil, thus little or no wear differential. Improper viscosity oil for a plain bearing and we have a totally different discussion...
From a lube engineer's perspective the first thing we do in either a plain or non-friction bearing application is perform an EHL calculation for proper/optimum viscositydetermination.. It is simply viscosity, viscosity and viscosity...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Rickoz:
It's great to see your still with us George.
Ok guys
We now all know that we should use Group vi/v fully synthetic oils.
Now with all this good group vi/v oil in the belly,
In the old days we would sit around & wait till the motor was warm to ride off right.
With the modern cycle what's the drill now?
Still the same wait till it warm? or just ride off?
A mate tells me to give the S2R a few good revs on start up to send the oil up, i just can't do it though.
I still wait a while till it's warm then go for a squirt.
So what's the right thing to do?
Rickoz
Georgecls:
Regarding oil warm up, etc. You are correct in that with our wonderful Group IV/V full synthetic oils, there is no need to "warm up" the oil. The viscosity is going to be essentially the same on start up as it is at operating temperatures. However, your difficulty with accepting starting up and immediately running/riding is well founded. We need to now allow the internal metals time to warm. Bearings, rings, cylinder walls, all need a few minutes of heat soaking, to perform and provide proper clearances, etc. So, a few minuetes of idle, followed by a bit of "taking it easy" would be highly recommended to allow for progressive heat soak to occur. But all the while, all internals are going to be immediately well lubricated.....
Excellent Question, and thank you.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Rickoz:
Hi All
I changed my Oil Filter & put some Mobil1 vTwin in the belly of the S2R for it's 5000km oil change.
I took my time draining adding draining ect.. (hours of loven)
Sh!t had some metal coming out
Anyway started it up & noticed oil was darkish on the left hand side of the motor & Golden on the right had side of the motor 150km later the oil is BLACK ???
My car has done 30,000km & the oil is still clear (all 10,000km done on time)
The bikes oil colour does not sound/look right to me, anyone got some advice on what's going on or advice on dumping the oil a better way out of the left side?
Rickoz
ducpainter:
I think what you're seeing is "debris" from the wet clutch. Was the bike vertical and on level ground when you drained?
Georgecls:
I would agree with Ducpainter that the 'visibles' are either transmission or clutch (or both) break in wear metals. Do not be concerned with the darkness in color as we aren't dealing with just an engine oil as in your car, but a combined system of engine, transmission and in your case, wet clutch. The high detergency level in the oil will do its job cleaning, especially for new/break-in. I would not be concerned at this point; just keep an eye on follow-on drains. Cut open the oil filter each oil change and examine the pleats closely with a Neo magnet.. Monitor for trending.. And of course document and keep dealer advised... Again, build dirt and break-in most likely cause.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
dan900sie:
I decided to send in an oil sample for analysis before I drained it out for winterizing.
Bike specs are;
2000 M900Sie, 31,300 miles on the clock. The oil has 2700 miles on it and is Amsoil 10W40 Moto specific.
I put in the new oil values where I had them, the other info is taken from various Amsoil papers.
While I don't understand what all the results mean, if anything, it appears that the oil was still fine. The analysis recommendations on the test results were "No corrective action needed. Oil is suitable for continued use."
Here's the data.
SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS
Element Test Result
Iron
Normal: 5/25 5
Abnormal: 350
Excessive: 500
Chromium
Normal: 5/20 0
Abnormal: 25
Excessive: 40
Lead
Normal: 30 7
Abnormal: 70
Excessive: 150
Copper
Normal: 5/30 4
Abnormal: 100
Excessive: 300
Tin
Normal: 20 0
Abnormal: 30
Excessive: 40
Aluminum
Normal: 5/20 12
Abnormal: 30
Excessive: 40
Nickel
Normal: 5 0
Abnormal: 10
Excessive: 15
Silver
Normal: 3 0
Abnormal: 10
Silicon (over oil baseline)
Normal: 20 30
Abnormal: 30
Excessive: 40
Sodium
Normal: 20 2
Abnormal: 100
Excessive: 150
Boron 3
Magnesium 34
Calcium 3469
Barium 0
Phosphorus 1174
Zinc
Base: 1436 1429
Molybdenum 113
PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
Fuel <1%
Visc @40C cSt N/A
Visc @ 100C cSt
Base 14.14 15.34
Water 0
ADITIONAL TESTS
TBN
Base 11.05 9.37
Oxid 18
Nitr 7
Georgecls:
Overall, as the analysis result comments indicate, a good oil analysis. The only concern is the silicon level (which is not gasket material, but dirt: silicon is the elemental word for dirt). Elevated silicon (dirt) is an abrasive which causes accelerated wear of components. If you are running a performance air filter such as a DP or K&N, this is the by-product. Just change oil a little more often..
All in all, a good analysis and if you have any particular questions, by all means...I review between 100 to 300 analysis a day as part of what I do....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
dan900sie:
Thanks George. I was wondering about the silicon, and I do use a K+N filter. Its interesting to see the downside to better airflow. Given this analysis, you would recomend decreasing the oil change interval?
Georgecls:
You have a constant abrasive contaminant (silicon) entering the oil continuously. To minimize the abrasive concentration, more frequent oil changes would minimize the level of abrasives in the oil. As you will note, K&N advertises their filters HP (dubious, however) capabilities but no longer tanks about the filter's ability to "filter"... Any air filter which you can see through is not going to stop a dirt particle moving at 100+ mph; there is simply no tackifier that will reach out and grab that particle.. It is going straight through to the engine/transmission... Resulting in just what your oil analysis indicated... No immediate harm, just a much higher rate of wear is taking place, especially on softer yellow metals (bearings) and aluminum..
Thus you now have the knowledge from your oil analysis results and options that will minimize the affects, should you continue with the K&N or go to back to paper, etc. etc.. Irrespective, as long as we minimize the abrasives and resultant wear, your engine and transmission life and performance will be maximized.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Transplant:
And how much damage does the 'dirt' do grinding its way from the airbox into the oil? Seems to me that's a bigger problem than having a few very tiny bits of sand in the sump that might be splashing around.
Georgecls:
Yes, the incoming abrasives that can find their way in through the induction system can do some pretty destrictive work. I have seen $100,000+ V-12 engines destroyed in less than a week due to a leaking induction system which allowed high levels of abrasives into the engine.. i.e. the pistons were literally rattling in the liners! My primary concern is to enable the knowledge that if minimal induciton restriction/maximum performance is the primary, then one should take steps to minimize the amount of abrasives in the oil by more frequent oil changes..
As a lube engineer, the number 1 cause of premature engine/component failure I see is induction system leakage, faulty air filter, or improper air filter seating. By a huge margin dirt is #1....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
sblea:
George,
Congrats on the full recovery [clap]. I have 2 ducatis, 998 and 748. I am using Maxima 10w40 and just purchased neo magnets for the oil filters. I have sent my recent oil samples for a "baseline" analysis and am waiting for the results (No magnets).
My question is what different in analysis should I expect from the "baseline" (w/o neo magnets) vs. future analysis reports with neo magnet? I know having a magnet will only help, but I am assuming if they are attached to the oil filter then the oil analysis will not show those particles? Is that correct? Would'nt the neo magnet "mask" certain elements in oil reports?
If so, how will I be able tell abnormal particles in my oil analysis samples then? Below are a few elements names from the reports. Which ones should I expect to "not see" in the oil analysis reports due to neo magnets? i.e. the particles that will have a smaller parts per million count. Would you expect these particles to be completely 0 in the oil reports?
ELEMENTS
********
aluminum, chromium, iron, copper, lead, tin, molybdenum, nickel, manganese, silver, titanium, potassium, boron, silicon, sodium, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous, zinc, barium
Georgecls:
Silver (ed: sblea?), excellent questions....
Regarding:" My question is what different in analysis should I expect from the "baseline" (w/o neo magnets) vs. future analysis reports with neo magnet? I know having a magnet will only help, but I am assuming if they are attached to the oil filter then the oil analysis will not show those particles? Is that correct? Would'nt the neo magnet "mask" certain elements in oil reports? "
The addition of the Neo's will help considerably but will not eliminate all ferrous and associated wear metals. It will still be in your oil analysis report. One should note a decrease in iron, copper, aluminum to some degree, but not the total elimination of wear with the addition of the Neo's. Also, the Neo is going to capture the complete size spectrum from Angstrom level on up through chunks and clunks. The oil analysis, however, will only be seeing the components from 0 to 5 microns +/-. Thus much of what the Neo's will be doing may not be reported in the oil analysis report. Much gear wear is larger than 5 microns and would go unreported on the oil analysis report. However, the Neo will be capturing and reducing those wear metals big time; they are not only wear metals but also abrasives which CAUSE wear on our yellow and white metal components in both engine and transmission.
So, bottom line, you may or may not see reductions in the spectrographic oil analysis results compared to without magnet. However, if you cut open your oil filter after you have added the Neo's you will see a very significant amount of metals captured on the outside of the filter housing, thus reducing the oil filter loading so it can do a better job at what it captures and of course capturing the sub-micronic particles which the oil filter cannot begin capturing..
The significant wear metals to look at are Iron (#1, big time), copper, and aluminum. Iron is the most predominant wear metal as it is used in everything including gearbox. Also of note will be Silicon which is the elemental notation for *dirt*.. Which is the #2 abrasive behind iron.
This has been a brief discussion; any further questions, as always, keep 'em coming......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
m695 army man:
George,
Good Morning. Brian Frymiare here from North East, Maryland. I am a mechanical engineer, and after a 18 year riding hiatus (sold my last bike right before I got married), I bought a Ducati M695 September 1. As I have spent 15 years of my career testing light tactical wheeled vehicles for the Army & Marine Core (HMMWVs, Land Rovers, MB G Wagaons, Pinzguars, etc), I am not totally ignarant when it comes to lubrication. I also used to race dirt bikes when I was younger, so, I have seen first hand the diffeences between synthetics and dino oil. Refereing to your expertise, knowledge, and experence, I had two quick questions I was hoping you could shed some light on:
I. What is the actual composition of Shell Rotelia Synthetic 5 w 40? In all of my searching (and maybe I was not searching in the right place), the only thing I could find out is that it is 87 % Group III oil, but I could not find out what the remaining 13 % was.
II. As my M695 manual calls for 10 w 40 Shell Advance Ultra 4, of which I have found out is not available in the states, what are your thoughts on using Shell Rotelia Syntheitic 5 w 40 in my new Monster, of which is readily avalable were I live, and significantley less expensive than the motorcycle specific synthetics I have been looking at?
Any information provided is apprecaited, and,
Thank You .
Brian F.
Georgecls:
Brian,
In answer to your Shell question. Yes, both Shell Ultra and Shell Rotella T Synthetic are actually mineral based Group III oils. Stuart's recommendation would be preferable but the Shell Rotella could be a viable, although not a true synthetic, alternative. But in such an expensive, sophisticated engine, the cost differential for 3 quarts of true Motorcycle specific Group IV or Group V oils is so miniscule, yet so very important for optimum life and operation, I would highly recommend using one of the better full, real synthetic motorcycle oils...
As for "what is the remainder of Shell composition" beyond the group III base oil? The remainder is additization; all the good supplementation that provides extreme pressure, rust, anti-foam, VI improvement, etc. etc. This ratio is very similar to other oils, with the exception that most full synthetics require less additization to achieve the desired performance characteristics of the lubricant.
Again, from a lube engineer's perspective, the slight increase cost of a full group IV/V synthetic motorcycle specific is well worth it in the long (and short!) run... Just a quick run through the gears of a proper viscosity Group IV/V oil vs. a Group III will tell you much......
George Morrison STLE CLS
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page