All About Motor Oil according to George
zarn02:
johnnymoto:
Given that this forum is almost less about oil types than it is about the recommendations of a lube engineer (and in the interest of keeping this awesome thread fresh) - two questions for George or anyone with the backround:
1.) I have heard different theories regarding oil levels. It seems that an engine performing in what is essentially an oil "bath" is the equivalent of a guy wading through water. If one tries to wade through water that is chest deep, his progress is slow. Knee deep, and his progress is less inhibited. Given that these synthetics cling and lubricate so well, my inclination is to fill only to the low oil mark. Seems to me that one may slightly increase performance without robbing engine longevity. What say you?
2.) What are your thoughts/opinions on chain lubes?
By the way - oil change done 2 days ago w/ a true synth. And magnets are in the mail. It just made sense, thanks to the info in this thread.
Oh - on that note, there is a third question: If the magnet is too strong, wouldn't the fields cancel one another out, or at least decrease the pull force on either side? You said 30 to 45, I think. With different thickness, these magnets could pull anywhere from maybe 20 to 50 pounds (staying within sizes that seem reasonable to slap on your filter)... big range. What is the right amount of force - to pull as much as you can on any given side without negating pull force on the other side?
Thanks again.
Georgecls:
Jonnymoto: excellent questions, regarding (1) oil levels for Ducati and (2) chain oils. Other than the use of an appropriate viscosity synthetic oil the energy expended and horsepower lost would be minimized. The possibility of momentary oil pressure/boundary layer loss from too low an oil level would be catastrophic. Additionally, the more oil volume, the more cooling volume we have. In an air cooled Ducati, 40% of the cooling is via oil. More volume, more cooling. Even instantaneous oil flow loss gives me chills, from a lube engineer's perspective. I have had to monitor $200,000+ engine teardowns that were the result of Murphy (Murphy's law fame) failing to put in the proper oil amount after an oil change, starting the engine, hearing noise, shutting down, filling to proper amount, then having the engine destroy itself within the next 200 hours of operation..... Thus from a lube engineer's perspective, the more engine oil, the better, especially in an air cooled motor.
I was working on an answer for #2; to formulate the world's ultimate end all be-all chain oil, but got diverted midway through the development process. It was going to be a cost no object chain oil that would provide a level of metal protection/friction reduction heretofore unseen, with minimal sling. However, the project got put on hold due to priorities (recovering from brain surgery) and still do not have a timeframe for completion of that project..
Unfortunately no clear cut recommendations/suggestions for superior chain lube as all current products for chain lube are low cost compromises; it comes down to personal real world operational choices.. They all sling to some degree, provide some level of anti-wear and corrosion protection, and are reasonably priced... And all work reasonably well......
Regarding the Neo placement. You can put one, two, three, four or as many Neo's as you can fit on the oil filter housing. The field is significantly reduced just going through the thin metal canister housing. (which is why regular magnets are useless as an oil filter supplement) Thus there is no issue with cross contamination or field cancellation with any number of Neo's on an oil filter. I have used continuous fields on large industrial engine oil filters and on filter cut, each magnetic field was covered in debris. In most applications we use Neo's at each quadrant and on filter cut, work very well, with absolutely no cross cancellation whatsoever. We are actually magnetizing the surface of the oil filter surface can, which helps disperse the field. Depending on the polarity of the opposing magnetic fields, the localized field strength can actually be enhanced by the field interaction. Either way, no problem performance-wise......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
greg mo:
And now comes something new, a friend of mine told me story of the guy who maintains hospital equipment. He insisted that by adding the Teflon based additive to the compressor oil, he noticed the drop in time needed to reach certain PSI by more than 60%, also the life of average compressor was extended a few times .......so, as we all know there are many oil additives on the shelf, like Slick 50 and others, they all claim to greatly extend engine life and boost performance : my question is if you have any experience with them, and if they are any good for our Ducs?
thanks, and be well George
Georgecls:
Interesting question and I do have some information. To begin, Teflon when exposed to heat, pressure, and moisture chemically reverts to hydrofluoric acid. We had a fellow who was a true "if two Aspirins are good, four must be better" person. With each oil change he added not one but two containers of a Teflon based additive which you well know the name... At one point he began hearing clattering sounds from his $10,000 boat motor. The hydrofluoric acid created had chemically milled his whole exhaust system to the point that his exhaust valves were milled down from pencil size to pencil lead size, with one stem breaking off; which created the clatter and much, expensive damage.. But boy was his exhaust system beautiful looking! It was as tho this incredible machinist had machined his whole exhaust port and manifold! The wonders of chemical milling.
Thus, in a word, NO, absolutely, positively NO additives should be used in ANY lubricant, much less our Ducati engine oils.. Oil companies spend gazillions of dollars to develop finely tuned lubricants. The field is SO competitive that if anyone had a better mousetrap, it WOULD be in our oils..
Engine oil formulation is such a fine balance that anything can throw off that additive balance. Rather like the recipe for a cake: if it calls for 2 eggs and one puts in 8 eggs, one will no longer have a cake at the end of the bake. Same goes for engine (and compressor, hydraulic oil, gear oils, etc. etc.)
DuPont owned Conoco oil for many years. DuPont, of course, is the developer and manufacturer of Teflon. No Conoco product has EVER used Teflon in any form as an additive in its lubricants. Believe me, if there was a true advantage as a lubricant additive, Conoco would have used it as a marketing edge... DuPont has published many times that Teflon should not be used as an engine oil/lubricant additive. (for the above reasons)
Just use a high quality lubricant (Group IV or V synthetic preferably in our Ducati) and know that you are using the optimum, best that chemistry has to offer, lubricant for your application: it cannot be improved through simple additization..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
lung:
With all the talk of Neo magnets makes me wonder.
Why would Oil filter companies not promote the use of them or incorporate them into there filters?
Georgecls:
If you would ever visit one of the few oil filter manufacturing facilities that exist in the U.S., you would immediately understand why they do not incorporate neo in their filter design. They make filters; mostly paper/cellulose filters. They bend the paper like an accordion, affix it to a core, put it in a can and out the door goes a gazzilion of them a year. Even the premium/specialty filters are actually made by the gazillion filter maker, just does a run and out the door those "special" (paint job) filters go. Thus something as advanced as Neo's are waaay beyond "what they do".. Additionally, with Neo's fragility and magnets tendency to clump (and break off as in an iceberg) they cannot be immersed in the oil stream safely. So, we just add them to the outside of the filter case and go our merry way... There are companies who manufacture mangetic rings, bands, etc. for attachment to the outside of the filter, but it is difficult to equal the price/value of the web neo sources shared on this site..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
m695 army man:
George,
Great info. Have a question for you. A while back you mentioned that someone was planning on making a "synthetic" premuim oil filter for Ducatis. Do you have update on this, i.e, what the status is and when we will be able to buy one?
Thank You,
Brian F.
Gerogecls:
Brian, unfortunately, the microglass (synthetic) element oil filter has yet to materialize. I was informed it would be available in July, 2006!! As of this writing (ed: 01/31/07), no filter.. So, at this point, we have nothing but cellulose oil filters available which essentially provide 30 micron and larger particulate filtration; the only one slightly different is the K&N oil filter which has a safety wire provision, but same cellulose medium... Here I am Mr. Lube engineer perfectionist and I have a regular old OEM paper element. Okay, it IS loaded with Neo's, but the new microglass element would work sooo much better than this paper element oil filter. Microglass provides filtration to 10 microns, 5 times the dirt holding capacity AND would flow with 1/4 the delta P (flow resistance) of our current paper elements. i.e. instantaneous, nearly unrestricted oil flow on start-up......
Needless to say everyone on this site will know the minute these filters are available for our Ducati..
And thank you for question on update.. I wish I had better news.......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
marrahm:
George,
What about these?
http://www.perf-form.com/
I found the site looking for a mobil 1 filter that would fit (doesn't exist). It looks like they use the microglass material you mention. I'll be trying them on my spring oil change.
Mike
Georgecls:
Mike, thanks so much... In my quest for the holy grail of oil filters, I had not seen this filter. Just got off the phone with discussion and information is coming via mail. I will keep you posted on what I learn about these filters. It would appear that these filters are glass/cellulose blend filters and could provide a significant upgrade in filtration over OEM and the rest..
Continued........
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
Georgecls:
A bit of a quanry. I just completed comparative, real world testing of Amsoil's new EaO oil filter and it provdes a level of performance/filtration far, far beyond any engine oil filter I have performed analysis & particle counts. The problem is, as before, Ansoil does NOT make an EaO filter for our Ducati engines. They WILL but it will require a good number of inquiries from their web site or phone calls to initiate the run. They say they need 500 to initiate a run... They have had 2 inquiries since August.. One was mine...
Amsoil lists an oil filter for the Ducati but it is *not* the new EaO filter medium, is a simple paper/cellulose element, thus does not provide any better performance than the Ducati or K&N oil filter.
So, if we can collectively get Amsoil off dead center by e-mailing/calling there really is a much better mousetrap in the Amsoil EaO oil filter. It would provide a level of oil cleanliness that would be actually cleaner than new oil right out of the bottle... Yes, that clean........
George Morrison, STLE CLS
(NOTE: I am not now, nor ever have been, an Amsoil Dealer: however, that may change with the advent of this new EaO oil filter!)
anzalone22:
Make that 4.
The amsoil makes this statement on their web page:
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/eao.aspx
"AMSOIL EaO Filters are guaranteed for 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, when used in conjunction with AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil in gasoline and diesel vehicles in normal service, 15,000 miles in severe service."
George is this possible? Would you recommend running a car 25,000 miles before a filter change? I know the Amsoil page recommends changing the filter and oil at the suggested auto manufacturers intervals.
One last question. Would it make a difference if I used Mobil 1 and an EaO instead of the Amsoil synthetic in my car?
Georgecls:
Any group IV or V synthetic would be fine with the Amsoil EaO filter, but yes, I have a bit of a problem with 25,000 miles... I run 10,000 mile ODI's on my personal vehicles using Mobil 1, regular oill analysis and Mobil 1 filters. The only aspect I am looking at with the EaO filter is a much, much cleaner oil for the 10,000 miles.... i.e. improved lubricant performance, component longevity...
I should have the complete results for my oil analysis later today or tomorrow at the latest. Emperically the EaO filter has no current equal for oil filtration....... Not even close....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
(And, again, I have no affiliation with Amsoil: just seeking the Holy Grail of oil filter for our Ducati engines) (we found it!)
J3:
Alright, here we go. I recieved my package today with the Perf-form Duc-1 Filter and promptly hacked that crap up for you all.
Top view of gasket surface
Major internal assemblies.
Pressure relief valve removed from end of filter element. All components are metal and effected by a magnet.
Pleat Depth
Again, element end cap removed.
Core material
Stretched filter material.
The piece of filter material stretched out measures 55 inches. Pleat count on this particular filter was 44.
I'm not entirely sure of the filter material composition. It felt very much like regular cellulose paper but makes my fingers tingle/itch ever so slightly. Wish I would have worn a pair of gloves to dissect this filter.
Will it filter better than any one else with equal or less pressure drop? I have no idea and do not have the equipment to test this product in that fashion. You will have to wait and see if George did any kind of filter effectiveness and longevity testing. If anything, this is a fairly well built unit. Everything was quite secure, though most metal-to-metal part junctions are only press fit (no internal welding on this part). The adhesive was VERY heat resistant. Tried heating the adhesive up w/ a 1500 degree heat gun to see if I could melt or weaken it, with no success.
Chances are pretty good that my Photobucket bandwidth will be exceeded. If someone has a more permanent hosting place for these pictures, feel free to download them and let me know so I can change the links. Distribute these images and writeup as you like, but please keep it all together. Thanks.
Georgecls:
My utmost thanks for securing and sectioning this filter. Superb work...
Unfortunately, you have exposed a "blend" filter medium.. A true synthetic medium has no "body" and requires stainless steel mesh backing to provide its form. Your disection exposed that this filter medium will "stand by itself", which no true synthetic/microglass medium will do. This medium is similar to the blends used by Mobil 1 and others, which provides some level of increased performance compared with cellulose but not close to the capabilities of a pure synthetic/microglass element. It is as a chain with the weakest link being the bottom line strength of the chain. With synthetic cellulose blends we are stuck with all the drawbacks of paper: inconsistent structure (as much as 40% of a cellulose filter does not flow anything: blocked totally due to the limitations of paper manufacture), inate limitations of filtration size of 30 microns absolute; the microglass blend improves it somewhat, but nowhere close to a full microglass medium.
We need to embark on the Amsoil web site campaign to get Amsoil producing our Ducati filter......
Again, thank you for your excellent work in exposing this less than EaO level performance filter.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Georgecls:
Another aspect of the "synthetic blend" which, amazingly, I do not think we have discussed is that there are no "regulations" governing just what constitutes a "synthetic blend". Thus, we go from a "weak link" to a very weak chain that has maybe one strong link in it. A synthetic blend can be formulated with 99.999% mineral base oil and .0001% synthetic base stock and legally can be labeled a "synthetic blend".. Soooo, oil company marketing and accountants for GreedOil Inc. can smile all the way to the bank as they charge near synthetic prices for what is for all intent and purpose, a mineral base oil. Synthetic blend is simply marketing (genius) that generates huge profits for those companies who produce them. I just happened to be in a blend plant one evening that was in the process of making a batch of "synthetic blend'; the technician stood there shaking his head and grimacing as he passed the synthetic wand over the tank of mineral base oil and walahh, synthetic blend.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
entropy:
George and Ducati guys,
Fabulous thread, hats off to George for his seemingly endless knowledge and willingness to share; and hats off to everybody's great questions and comments.
Quick question:
I have a street/drag bike and am running Redline 15/50. Due to problems in the past with uncovering the oil pickup during launch, I have an oil guage and i log oil pressure.
Your comments on the full syn not substantially changing viscosity w/Temp has me scratching my head. When i fire up my motor i see about 60psi at about 2500rpm. As the bike warms up the oil pressure drops until it settles at about 25psi at 2500 psi.
I always figured that the viscosity was higher at colder temp, thus creating the higher oil pressure.
Any thoughts would be most appreciated [thumbsup]
Georgecls:
As we previously discussed, Redline being a full, real Group IV/V synthetic is very, very temperature stable. However, the components the oil has to pass through, especially the oil filter, are not. The paper element in our Ducati oil filters is very temperature sensitive/restrictive, for one, and a prime suspect in the restriction to flow. Which is what we have here: Restricion of flow. If your bike has an oil filter......
Another thing we are doing on start-up is "pumping up the circuit". The oil galleys, and everything above the crankcase are subject to mother nature and gravity. So, on start-up and warm up the oil pump has to fill all the lines, cavities and crevaces resulting in a higher pressure reading/flow restriction. Once all the initial pumping is complete and the oil filter warms and begins to flow oil easily, the system and pressure settles down.
Bottom line: it is more of a system dynamic than an oil related phenomenon. Almost as in intertia: getting the system moving. Once moving/flowing/a system, then equilibrium...
However, there IS a relatively small amount of viscosity change with increased temperature. Even the most sophisticated full synthetics do thicken just a bit with ultra cold, thin a wee bit with temperature, so that aspect is in this program also but to a very minor degree. If one were to superimpose the graph of mineral based oil vs. a group IV/V synthetic temperature vs. viscosity, it would be quite dramatic.
Plus, a full synthetic of the same exact measured viscosity as a mineral based oil will pump and flow easier than the mineral oil, even though theoretically they should be the same. Which is a bit contrary but in the real world your top end will be receiving oil sooner than a comparable 50W mineral based oil. Which is all good......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Langanobob:
Entropy, Thanks for bringing this up. I was going to make a similar post earlier on. I hate it when this happens and I have to disagree with a recognized guru but you are absolutely right about this. Even a top synthetic like Mobil MX4T exhibits considerable viscosity change between ambient temperature and operating temperature in a motor, and that is why your oil pressure gauge reads higher when the oil is cold. In case I get accused of having just another personal opinion I did a quick very amateurish experiment in my shop this morning. I cut the top off of a soft drink can and drilled a 1/8" hole near the bottom. Then I poured some Mobil MX4T 10W 40 oil into it (oil temp was 62 F measured with a Raytek temp "gun" and it took about 200 seconds for the oil to completely drain out the hole. It was kind of hard to measure the exact time since as the oil level got low the elevation head decreased the oil barely dribbled out, so the actual time it took for 98% of the oil to drain was probably less. Then I took the same oil and heated it to about 200F in a can with a Milwaukee hair dryer. Even subjectively while sloshing the oil around as it heated, it became much less viscous and more "watery". Then I poured the 200 F heated oil into the same drink can. It took about 40 seconds to drain completely and it zipped right through the hole without slowing down much toward the end.
I'm not saying that the ratio of 40 seconds to 200 means that the oil is only 20% as viscous at 200F than 62F but I am saying that the drop in oil pressure you notice as your engine warms up is just as you say, mainly due to the synthetic oil losing viscosity as it heats up. It may not thin as much as a petroleum based oil but the thinning is still very significant. The oil filter may somehow flow more oil when the filter itself warms up but I doubt if this effect makes enough difference in oil pressure to show up on your pressure gauge.
I've learned a lot from George during this thread, especially about the differences between Group III, IV and V synthetic oils and I really appreciate the time he's spent teaching us. I didn't post any of my dissenting opinions earlier since I didn't want to be unappreciative. However, sometimes I think that he takes some communication shortcuts in explaining things to us unwashed masses and doesn't get things exactly technically correct. I think he also stated somewhere that synthetic oils do not break down with temperature. Synthetic oils most definitely break down with temperature, they just do it slower than petroleum based oils. I think the AMSOIL ads even say that their oils break down more slowly but refrain from saying they don't break down at all.
Many people take whatever George posts here as being absolutely biblical and I think it's not a bad thing and probably a good thing if we challenge and question him once in awhile.
Bob
Georgecls:
Excellent field test and point well taken Bob. My response was very much geared to his oil pressure variance for Red Line, which is proported to be a Group V base stock. Group V's have a much higher natural Viscosity Index (resistance to viscosity change with temperature) than the Group IV used in manufacturing Mobil 1 MX4T. Thus I was self-biased in a Group V frame of mind in my response. The extremely high natural VI is one of the (few) advantages of an ester (Group V) over a PAO (Group IV).
Correspondingly, there are operational disadvantages in using an ester (Group V) as an engine oil base stock.... Thus my response leaning much more toward "pump up", oil filter, system fill, dynamics, etc. vs. viscosity change with the Red Line.....
You are indeed correct in that we do see viscosity change with temperature with Mobil 1 MX4T; just worlds better than a comparable high quality mineral based oil.
i.e. a much more temperature stable oil for both temperature extremes.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
Georgecls:
One of the obvious advantages of a Group IV and V base stock is in flash point. The higher flash relates to the oils stability at not just the actual flash point but even normal operational temperatures; lights are going away at lower temperatures than the flash point in a mineral based oil. So the numbers given do represent an ultimate high temperature cushion for Group IV/V but also relate to the oils general ability to handle elevated temperatures in general; i.e. oxidation stability.
In air cooled engines, we can have hot spots in an engine/transmission (an oil passageway that passes very close to a cylinder, etc.) that may not show up on a temperature gauge but small amounts of the engine oil can seeing very high temperatures for a brief time. Which can then lead to oxidation quietly taking place even with temperatures apparently quite reasonable.
Which goes back to the safety margin that a group IV/V provides, especially in an air cooled engine...
Back to the question.. Flash point does provide a bit of insight into the normal and elevated temperature base stock performance capability of the oil.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Georgecls:
Re: EOM132. Just got off the phone with Jon and he is fighting fires with his helicopter in the middle of nowhere thus unable to access a computer.
That said, he indicates "no, I would suggest waiting until the 'real' Ducati oil filter comes available. Jon will be meeting with his Amsoil contact in the next week and will be getting back with us with the latest news/schedule on the new Ducati EaO filter.
There can be conflicts with an oil cooler guard on some Ducati, apparently. Jon does not have this shield on his racing bikes so it is of no consequence. But not being able to say certainly for all Ducati street bikes, would rather suggest waiting for the 'real' EaO oil filter for our application.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Langanobob:
Hi George,
There's been a lot of posts concerning oil temp on air-cooled Ducati's that get stuck in heavy traffic on hot days, with the oil temp indicator reaching 300F or above. The oil temp sensor on my 620 is on the crankcase and it looks to me that the oil up in the cylinders/heads area is going to be a lot hotter than the temp reported on the dash. Some of the oil in the crankcase has only been as far as the crankshaft and gearbox, so if the average temp is 300 I'm not sure I can even venture a guess as to how hot the oil is on the cylinder walls and valve gear.
My question is: What is the hottest sustained temperature (sustained for say maybe an hour) that a good quality synthetic can deal with before a significant loss in lubricating ability? Or breaking down so that it's not as effective even after it cools? There's also been some confusion with some riders thinking that the oil is OK up to the flash point and I'm pretty sure that is not correct.
Thanks,
Bob
Georgecls:
The high temperature operating condition certainly merits additional discussion. Extremely high operating temperatures as previously posted are a *significant* issue with mineral based engine oils. Even minimal exposure to these temperatures will result in immediate, significant oxidation (and its associated acid by-products) along with the formation of varnish and sludge deposits. An engine/gearbox life shortening reality.
In a Group IV/V synthetic engine oil, elevated operating temperatures do not produce chemical by-products of oil degradation, as does mineral based oil. Synthetic oils retain their operational viscosities and lubrication qualities without compromise. If you have ever seen the Mobil 1 TV commercial of years ago, a mineral based oil and Mobil 1 were put in frying pans and literally cooked on a gas stove. The mineral based engine oil was reduced to a black smoking residue of burned, thick goo while the Mobil 1 retained its bright, clear appearance, essentially unaffected by the high temperature. This IS what takes place in our engines.
This resistance to high temperature is why group IV/V synthetic oils are used exclusively in turbine/jet aircraft engines. The engine oil is exposed to temperature extremes (as high as 1,200F, as low as -40F) much higher than we can produce in our Ducati engines, again and again, without degradation. And it is a 5W oil, protecting highly loaded gearboxes and accessories along with bearings spinning at 28,000 rpm's. For tens of thousands of hours between changes.....
This IS what Group IV/V synthetic engine oil are all about. Providing optimum lubrication in maximum operating conditions. The addition of an oil cooler would provide additional oil volume and cooling, all good, however the implementation of a reduced oil drain interval during those over the top operating conditions would be prudent; primarily for the oil's additives. But basically, until you notice fire belching from between your legs, a group IV/V synthetic engine oil will provide the necessary lubrication even in those temperatures.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Georgecls:
Sieg,
I am totally in agreement with you regarding holding a negative impression of Amsoil. In fact, I initially set about the prove Amsoil wrong in its advertising of the EaO oil filter element performance! Finally I had an Amsoil product which I could easily, empirically disprove its performance in black and white with relatively simple & low cost testing. Lubricant performance comes down to total field performance and there is not one SAE test or bench test of any kind that is going to relate to real world performance in an engine/transmission.. It makes for great AD copy and "White papers", however... Good marketing... Amsoil does make excellent lubricants; it is just the marketing aspect Amsoil has used, from a conservative lube engineer point of view, a little over the top..
So, when the results of my oil analysis/laser particle counts with confirming pore blockage came back for the Amsoil EaO oil filter, I was very much taken back... My whole premise was to finally, easily, disproove an Amsoil marketing claim and I failed miserably....
Thus, yes, it is quite an accomplishment for Amsoil to have my oil filter data presented.. But the data is certainly unbiased. And the filter material, construction could/should provide this level of performance but if any one component of the filter was not of an excellent design, the bottom line filtration performance simply would not be there. It isn't just the use of the microglass medium alone. I have seen many microglass elemented oil filters fail miserably in real world applications do to a corner cut in a seal material, seal design, medium preparation, etc.. Filtering to this level *is* extremely difficult to achieve... Amsoil did it with the EaO filter....
For me the current oil filter crop we had to use on our engines was like having a Rolex watch with a Timex watch band... We now have the complete package...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Amisol Dealer Group:
I have been answering questions on several sites over the last 10 years like George is doing here and I am very impressed with his sharing of knowledge without any monetary gain. I have always said follow the money to get to the truth. There is so much mis-information all across cyberspace that it's mind boggling so when I come across a guy like George it is very refreshing. My background comes from aviation starting out as a jet mechanic back in 1966 in the USAF. I remember pouring in a can of synthetic oil in to a jet engine and at that time I couldn't spell synthetic let alone know it's values.
george
ADG
WhereTheSunDontShine:
Yes, I have thoroughly enjoyed this in-depth discussion, and George has been remarkable for his patience and persistance.
It's one thing to possess knowledge, another to be able to impart technical concepts to others, in language anyone can understand.
There's been helluva lotta oil threads on the 'net over the years. This is the Oil Encyclopedia, high fives to George and thanks for choosing DML as your audience. And there's been plenty of damm good questions too.
Georgecls:
And thank you for your kind words.. And yes, the secret of this thread has been the superb questions, discussions and knowledge building process; i.e. the uniqueness of Monster and Ducati owners...
No gnashing of teeth, no flaming; intelligent group discussion about a subject near and dear to all of us. One of the very few pleasant lubricant threads on the internet, ever, I believe.. Certainly an ongoing learning/sharing experience for me, and a site I look forward to opening each day...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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