All About Motor Oil according to George
zarn02:
terry:
Good stuff George; so is the genuine Duc filter as good as any, or if not which brand do you use?
CETME:
This is from the Amsoil data sheet for their 20w50 motorcycle oil http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcv.aspx
Could you please translate this so we can fully understand? To me, it shows that at 100celsius, that the oil is thinner than at 40celsius. I thought that oil viscosity and temperature had a fairly linear inverse relationship.
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
20.1
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
151.98
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)
153
CCS Viscosity (ASTM D2602)
5609 @ -15°C
Georgecls:
At this point, Genuine Duc is as good as the rest... The filter can be raised to a higher level of filtration by attaching a high quality neodymium magnet to the outer case; the neo can serve two causes. Operate light change sensors at intersections and provide some level of additional oil filtration in that a strong magnet (which neo is) will filter from 1 angstrom on up through chunks and clunks. With the majority of our wear metals being ferrous, the addition of a neo magnet as additional filtration reduces the loading on the paper element enabling the filter to do its job better. Attaching the Neo anywhere on the outside of the element will work as the oil travels from the outside in. Thus you will be capturing wear metals before they go through the filter medium.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Georgecls:
Re: Fairly linear.. Linear relative to mineral based oils... To emphasize my point of the vast differences in rate of viscosity change for synthetics vs. mineral based oils . Yes, synthetics do change viscosity relative to temperature but not nearly, not in the same world, as mineral based oils....
As example, we can have a straight grade 40W full synthetic oil which will pour down to 60 below zero yet a mineral based 14W-40 engine oil will a solid at -15 degrees F... That is a *huge* difference; which was my point. Relative linearity. Obviously I did not do a good job of clearing that, explaining..
Thank you for the excellent question.....
944SSie:
I usually avoid these discussions since up to this point an oil discussion was an oil discussion was an oil discussion, but George has certainly added a great dimension to this discussion - Thanks George!
I do have a question though. My Ducati motors (1999 and 2000) use roller bearings where the later motors switched to plain bearings. I understand roller bearings require oil volume where plain bearings enjoy oil pressure. Will this difference impact the idea that despite the owner's manual suggestion of 20W-50 a 10W-40 is preferable?
I have always used a Mobil 1 20W-50 but last summer I started using Mobil 1 15W-50 (no perceptable differences noted). I ride when the weather is warm (>50*F) and the New England summers can scratch 100*F, but normally fluctuate through the 75*F - 85*F range. I have not noticed any change in operating oil temp despite a switch to a "thinner" oil, or did I not switch to a thinner oil? Also, during a recent late oil change it was 25*F and the Mobil 1 15W-50 was thick and slow to pour, notably thicker than in the summer. This seems to contradict the suggestion that synth oil doesn't change much until the temps were well below freezing.
philb:
Quote from: CETME
This is from the Amsoil data sheet for their 20w50 motorcycle oil http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcv.aspx
Could you please translate this so we can fully understand?* To me, it shows that at 100celsius, that the oil is thinner than at 40celsius. I thought that oil viscosity and temperature had a fairly linear inverse relationship.
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 20.1
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 151.98
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) * * * * * * * * 153
CCS Viscosity (ASTM D2602) * * * * * * * * * * 5609 @ -15°C
Oil viscosity (for any oil) varies inversely with temperature, that is, higher temperature means lower viscosity. *The linearity of the relationship varies from oil to oil, as does the steepness of the slope (i.e. the amount of change in viscosity per degree of temperature). *For what we're talking about, synthetic oils change viscosity by a smaller amount, and in a more linear fashion than mineral-based oils, but they do still change. *So yes, we would expect to see what is shown here: that the oil will be thinner (less viscous) at the higher temperature.
philb
Georgecls:
Regarding the 20W50 vs. the 15W-50 Mobil 1. Again the W is in relation to its winter rating only and that is a measure of how it *flows* at cold temperatures. Operationally you have a rock solid 50W in both cases. Both oils are operational 50W oils. i.e. the 15W50 Mobil 1 is not thinner than the 20W-50 Mobil 1. In fact both oils may well be identical with the manufacturer wanting an oil for a specific application and utilizing an API rating/label for a certain manufacturer's recommendation, etc. As we discussed before, some synthetic engine oils could surpass a 0W rating but no one would purchase a 0W-40 motorcycle oil as it is "too thin". But as we now know, it would not be thin ........ So, marketing comes into play, even with some specification sheets being incredibly conservative as a manufacturer may not want to reveal what the oil's ultimate capabilities really are... There is a cloaked secrecy among oil manufacturers, pride of invention, chemistries, etc..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
CETME:
so in effect, the slope of the inverse relationship of viscosity and temperature on a mineral oil is much steeper than that of synthetics?
Valvoline conventional 20w50 which I assume is a Group III
@ 40 celsius is 165.9
@ 100 celsius is 18.5
It has a pour point of -27 celsius
Amsoil 20w50 which I assume is a fully synthetic Group IV is not much different I would say
@40 celsius the kinematic viscosity is 151.98
@100celsius it is 20.1
It has a pour point of -39 celsius
The numbers seem pretty close..... I'm not trying to contradict anything you're saying, I'm just trying to understand the numbers here
mitt:
George,
Thanks for the lessons so far from an engineers perspective.
I would be interested in any opinions on what I am currently using for my M1000, Motul 5100 15W-50 Ester. I am using it not so much by my choice, but it is what was available and recommended at my Ducati shop.
http://www.motul.com.au/product_line_up/4stroke/4stroke14.html
mitt
mustang:
Yes this is a fantastic thread, thank you George for the continued involvement. The point on the magnet is a great idea, I use one myself with a cup to reinforce the magnetic flux.
You are reducing my fears on the oil that I may choose for a trip down to Cali for the MotoGP. As I am from Canada, the ambient in the early season will be cool leading me to choose Mobil1, MX4T 10W40.
But for the trip (July), the shop is strong in the recommended use of 50 weight (V-TWIN 20W50). So just to ask what appears to be the theme of this thread, as shown in the owners manual and underseat sticker. That the use of 10W40 would be suitable for the trip given that the ambient temperature would definitely exceed 40 Deg Celsius.
Or should I consider the thicker oil just for the trip.
My apologies - my head is spinning on this simple issue. :-\
zarn02:
Georgecls:
Re the use of 20W-50 for the heat of summer. If the manual calls for a 10W-40 for your model, by all means, Mobil 1 MX4T. As we have discussed, the use of Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 will actually create more heat as more energy is being expended in just churning the heavy 50W oil. As a very dramatic demonstration in clinics, I have folks churn a 10W-40 with a manual beater, then churn a 20W-50 and watch the looks on their faces.. The difference in "churn factor" is huge.. The same with our engines.. We are not going to be sacrificing film strength with the full synthetic.
You will most likely be lecturing your shop folks about the attributes of synthetic oils as you now have a much greater knowledge base than they!
As example of the relevence of viscosity and synthetic oil, every jet/turbine engine flying is using a full synthetic (most likely Mobil Jet II) 5W engine oil... Yet the engines are turning in the 27,000 to 35,000 rpm region. Centrafugal bearing loading is incredibly high. Yet the 5W full synthetic oil provides superb lubrication for those bearings; not just bearings, but also the gearboxes which drive generators, hydraulic pumps, and various other mechanical attachments. The relatively thin synthetic oils go through literally thousands of heat cycles yet the oils are not changed until 20,000 and 30,000 hour intervals, depending on the airline.. As example of just what synthetic base stocks can do.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
mysfitt:
This is an incredibly informative thread. Oil is something that comes up frequently on this board, and as others have noted, it mostly rapidly descends into squabbling over insubstantiated claims. George has made this one a gem so I'm going to make it a sticky. I'm also going to ask a question of my own. It's something that's been touched on, but I'd like a little more information for clarification.
Motorcycle specific oils claim that they have special additives to deal with the additional shearing forces that the oil is submitted to in our transmissions and wet clutches. From what I've gathered from this thread, full synthetics do not take as much of a beating from shearing forces since they do not have or require the VI modifiers that mineral oil has [which is actually what is broken down]. That being said, why would a motorcycle-specific oil be any better than a full synthetic?
Thanks George, I believe you may just settle a huge debate that's been going on for some time here.
Georgecls:
Cetme, Regarding your excellent question and the Amsoil/Valvoline comparison and the similarities of the pour points along with viscosities.. Unfortunately I do not have personal knowledge of the composition of the Amsoil 20W-50 but would like to also add the same numbers for Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50. Beginning with pour points. Valvoline 20W-50 at -27C, Amsoil at -39C, while Mobil 1 V-Twin has a pour of -51C (60 below zero F!). The Mobil 1 reflects a *significantly* lower pour point than both the Valvoline and Amsoil. The Vis at 40 is Valvoline 165, Amsoil 151 while V-Twin is 130. Vis at 100C for Valvoline is 18.5, Amsoil 20.1 and V-Twin at 17.7. Again the V-Twin reflects a more linear nature in its viscosity plot vs. the Valvoline & Amsoil. Amsoil may be using some level of Group 1 or II in its formulation; I am not familiar with Amsoil formulations but am with Mobil and as can be seen, the V-Twin is indeed formulated with 100% synthetic base stock.
Moreover, the point of our previous discussions is that, yes, a mineral base oil could be additized to approximate the viscosity temperature performance, on paper, of a full synthetic. The shortcoming is as the saying goes "one cannot make a silk purse out of a cow's ear". i.e the additives used to bolster the mineral base stocks are just unable to provide the overall performance level of the synthetic base stocks in a real working engine/transmission. The VI improvers, as we have discussed, are subject to shear, shock and even filtration loss. In high load areas such as high speed engine camshafts, VI improvers can just collapse under high film strength loading; what we are left is the base oil we started with in the formulation, in this case a 20W mineral based oil.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
hiero:
I came up with another question yesterday that I'm sure you can help out with George!
I was looking at my stock of oil in my garage yesterday and was wondering if it had a shelf life of any sort? I tend to buy cases of oil to be used as necessary so this becomes an issue if there is a 'use by' date where the properties of the oil degrade from just sitting around...
Georgecls:
Regarding synthetics vs. "motorcycle oils"..* A full synthetic oil whether it be PAO or Ester, provides a much higher level of film strength vs. a mineral base oil primarily from the fact that the base oil is "manufactured".* The process produces molecules which are all identical and thus bonding is near perfect.* Mineral base oils are plethora of chemistries, everything from dinosaur bones (chemically) to leaves and branches (chemically).* Thus the composition of mineral base oils is a mish-mash and the resulting chemical bonding is marginal, at best.* The result is that full synthetics have a film strength many times that of even the highest quality mineral based oils and require much less addization.* In the previously discussed Turbine Oil example, the film strength actually increases with use.* The turbine oil provides better extreme pressure wear protection over time than when new, which is completely contrary to mineral base oils.
Back to motorcycle specific oils.* From the above, it is obvious that a motorcycle specific full synthetic base stock oil will provide superior performance in every perspective with minimal additization.* From the lubrication of the engine to the transmission, the motorcycle specific full synthetic is going to provide the highest level of lubrication, resistance to shear, oxidation resistance,horsepower generation and cooling.* By motorcycle specific full synthetic I am referring to formulations that do not contain automotive lubricity enhancements and associated automotive EP additive minimizations.* This is what most companies are providing with their "Motorcycle specific" formulations.* Some companies are going one step further and using even higher performance synthetic base stocks and additives in their motorcycle oiles which in turn cost more to produce and are priced higher on the shelves.
With our demanding requirements of engine, transmission and in some cases clutches, it is very difficult to formulate a mineral based oil that would equal the performance of a motorcycle specific full synthetic oil.* Similar to the foundation of a house, when the* base stock is a full synthetic we have an extraordinary foundation to build the formulation.. The full synthetic base stock does everything to the 9's naturally, unaddized.*
Some manufacturers of mineral & mineral/synthetic blend based *motorcycle specific* oils are using higher cost, shear resistant VI improvers, higher quality base stocks,* but these oils still do not match the performance of a full synthetic base stock in extreme conditions, from my experience.* Back to that "foundation" discussion. Sometimes those conditions cannot be anticipated.. However, these motorcycle specific oils are superior to regular automotive oils for our applications.
And then we have those manufacturers who shall remain nameless who are just re-labeling automotive oils with "Motorcyel Use Labels", getting on the motorcycle specific bandwagon through the magic of marketing and label making....* *These oils are not motorcycle specific in their formulation and are not providing increased performance in any way.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
mysfitt:
George,
Thank you for the response. It would seem that you are saying that a regular full synthetic automotive oil would be superior to any mineral based oil, whether it is motorcycle specific or not. However, the motorcycle specific full synthetics are superior to a full synthetic "car oil" because they do not include "automotive lubricity enhancements" to quote you. I've heard automotive oils refer to "friction enhancers" that reduce friction in auto engines that some have cited as detremental to wet clutch operation. I have personally used these same oils, 15W50 Mobil1 "gold cap" to be specific, without experiencing any clutch slippage.
What you have said has made good sense. I was actually looking for more of a comparison between "automotive" full synth oil and "motorcycle" full synth oil than a comparision between motorcycle oils and full synthetic oils. I apologize for not being more specific with my question. Could you give us some more information on what additives some motorcycle specific oils use and what their benefits are? I ask because the cost difference can be pretty substantial between a quart of Mobil 1 15W-50 and a quart of Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40. I'd like to know what additional benefit that difference will provide. :)
Georgecls:
In the case of the Mobil 1 motorcycle vs. automotive oils. Mobil 1 Mx4T and V-Twin oils are formulated with a higher quality (higher cost) base stock which provides an even higher level of base stock performance then the Mobil 1 automotive. Additive differentiation between auto and bike is that (1) automotive engine oils are restricted in the amounts and types of additives that can be used due to catalytic converter and EPA state/local restrictions. Those additives are the "good ones" we need for our combined engine transmission; ZDP (Zinc dithiophosphate) for one, which provides extreme pressure, anti-wear, and oxidation stabilization. And other additives of lesser nature but still valuable in supplementing base stocks. (2) energy conservation additives. These are used in automotive oils to assist manufacturers in fuel conservation and simply make the oil 'slipprier'. These energy additives can cause clutch slippage in certain applications depending on clutch face material, stress, heat, etc..
So, in a motorcycle specific such as Mobil 1 MX4T and V-Twin, Mobil is starting out with a higher quality synthetic base stock, higher treat levels of premium additives specific to motorcycle requirements and a more limited production, all of which contribute to a higher end user cost... It's only 3 quarts.... :-)
George Morrison, STLE CLS
metalman:
Thanks for all the useful info George. I think we are all glad you bought a Ducati! I'll be switching to 10-40 from 20-50.
Two questions, during break-in, would you suggest dyno oil for the first (fill in the blank) miles or is synthetic recommended from mile "0"?
Then also my mid 70's V-twin Duc has all roller bearings would you go 10-40 with that as well?
Georgecls:
Excellent question: What to do for break in? Mineral or synthetic.. All Corvette, Porsche, Mercedes AMG are shipped from the factory with Mobil 1 synthetic oil. The old wive's tail of "synthetics are so slippery you don't get seating proper seating" is just simply not true...
However, during break in we generate large amounts of wear metals in the seating process, and we need to flush the system. It is expensive to use synthetics for this process and of little or no added value. Several short oil change intervals early on with high quality mineral based oils would be ideal, then switch to the full synthetic..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
ducpainter:
George, I would like to ask one last question regarding manufacturers recommended viscosity. If my particular year specifies 20W-50, will any harm, aside from the previously stated benefit, be done by using 10W40 instead? Thanks.
zarn02:
mitt:
Another ?-
Can you do damage an engine by constantly changing brands? For example, my bike origanally came with Shell synth, then 2 oil changes with AGIP synth, then 2 oil changes with Motul synth, and now based on your recommendations I should use a 10-40 instead of a 15-50.
mitt
Georgecls:
If Ducati specificies only the20W-50, I would suggest the 20W-5050; if the owner's manual gives a viscosity range recommendation (which generally is done to compensate for mineral base oils, ambient temps around the world) then proceed with that option..
Regarding changing brands. In this case each oil was a very high quality oil so there should be no issues. But an excellent question especially as it relates to Motorcycle oils. Manufacturers do have different philosphies of addization, base stocks, etc. so it is adviseable to minimize oil brand changes if it all possible. With some base stocks, conflicts can occur creating acid by-products, while certain additives can negate a particular additive function. This issue is not so relevant with automotive oils manufacturers have been rorced to compatability due to SAE/API requirements; however, in motorcycle oils we have some pretty esoteric products being made which do not have to meet any particular standards of compatability..
So, yes, minimize brand switching if at all possible.. It would be an extremely rare situation where conflicts would occur But.........
George Morrison, STLE CLS
CETME:
Wow George... thanks for all the info!
one more thing... What do you think about using Delvac 1 in a motorcycle? I hear its also available as the new synthetic Truck/Van/SUV oil....
considering it was designed for diesel engines, wont it have more ZDP's and less emissions restrictions?
terry:
Here's a slightly different one for you George. This is the first winter I've had my air-cooled Monster and I had a 50 mile ride today with an ambient of 7°C. The oil temp gauge didn't get above 74°C and when I got home there was some white condensation in the sight glass and inside of oil-filler cap.* I know if I get the engine hot it will remove it but does this permanently affect the lubricating properties of the oil at all? I'm thinking of blanking off the oil-cooler to get the engine hotter, so any advice please?
Georgecls:
Regarding Delvac 1.* It is a full synthetic engine oil formulated for extended drains for diesel engines. And yes, formulating for a diesel means fortifying with high levels of additive to include detergency, anti-wear, anti-oxidation, soot dispersion and acid neutralization.* Yes, it could be a good Ducati or other motorcycle engine oil.* Delvac 1 does not contain any lubricity enhancers ala Cafe, so no clutch issues.* Delvac 1 would not be as optimally formulated as Mobil 1 MX4T for our needs but would far, far surpass any automotive type oils in terms of performance.* It is a rock solid 40W yet flows to -40F and easily withstands 3,000 degree F turbocharger temps..* Delvac 1 is an extraordinary oil.
I would choose Mobil 1 MX4T over Delvac 1 for my Ducati.* I would not say Delvac 1 is a compromise as it certainly is not as the oil is gangbusters in every paramter, but from a lube engineer's perspective, optimization, Mobil 1 MX4T. And by the way, that was a very sophisticated question......
George Morrison
Georgecls:
Regarding winter/cold weather operation.* It is most important to get the oil up to a 170 to 180F level for 15 to 20 minutes to allow moisture to release completely.* If one operates below that temperature continuously, water will build in the oil.* Engine oil that has a milky appearance, has entrained water.* It can easily be confirmed by doing the "scrambled egg test".* *Extract some of the oil and put it on a hot plate.* If you hear the sound of eggs frying, it is water.* The by-products of water are corrosion and in limited amounts, additive depletion.* Reducing engine oil cooling a bit, riding longer, harder, getting up to 180F will release the moisture.* If not possible, simply change the oil more frequently.* It is very important that during storage or minimal riding that the oil be kept fresh and free of entrained moisture.* Even if you just change the oil without changing the filter, you will have fresh additive, minimal moisture and excellent corrosion protection.* The situation is exacerbated with synthetic engine oil in that we create less heat with synthetic oil, disappate the heat faster, making it *really* difficult to hit that 180 degree F mark!
George Morrison, STLE CLS
SMOOV_S4:
George,
What size Neo Magnet should I use on my S4 oil filter (looking on Ebay right now)? Thanks for the insight. I'll be looking for some Mx4T tonight. Thanks again.
PK
Georgecls:
Re: Neodymium Magnet.* Try to obtain the highest quality neo you can source.* With Neo, a high number rating, even tho quite small, will radiate through the steel casing and present an excellent magnetic field inside.* So, size is not as important with Neo as the base quality. Something rated in the 30 region or higher would be excellent.* A high rating neo from erasure size through quarter-size would be excellent and more than one strategically placed around the permiter would be excellent..
Any neo or any size/quality is better than none at all.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
slowpoke13:
Quote from: Georgecls
Re: Neodymium Magnet.* Try to obtain the highest quality neo you can source.* With Neo, a high number rating, even tho quite small, will radiate through the steel casing and present an excellent magnetic field inside.* So, size is not as important with Neo as the base quality. Something rated in the 30 region or higher would be excellent.* A high rating neo from erasure size through quarter-size would be excellent and more than one strategically placed around the permiter would be excellent..
Any neo or any size/quality is better than none at all.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Do you have pics of the neo magnet on yours? Just looking for an idea of relationship vs. size.
Can you get too strong of a magnet? Did you have to glue the magnet on or did its own magnetic properties keep it there?
Georgecls:
Neo is one super, super strong magnet and will stay in place. Some use some designer duct tape for security but should not be necessary..
I am sorry my bike is in the shop right now so unable to show photos but will try and get some posted of samples neo sizes tomorrow.. They are available in just about any configuration imaginable, just need to be selective in power rating. Again, 30 or higher is desired. They are relativelly inexpensive. Regular steel magnets do not have the field strength to penetrate the case. Magnetic fields dissapate very quickly going through metal; additionally iron magnets temporarily loose their field at elevated temperature, rending them near useless as a filter agent, especially after having gone through the steel case of the filter.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
slowpoke13:
Quote from: Georgecls
Neo is one super, super strong magnet and will stay in place.* Some use some designer duct tape for security but should not be necessary..*
I am sorry my bike is in the shop right now so unable to show photos but will try and get some posted of samples neo sizes tomorrow..* *They are available in just about any configuration imaginable, just need to be selective in power rating.* Again, 30 or higher is desired.* They are relativelly inexpensive.* Regular steel magnets do not have the field strength to penetrate the case. Magnetic fields dissapate very quickly going through metal; additionally iron magnets temporarily loose their field at elevated temperature, rending them near useless as a filter agent, especially after having gone through the steel case of the filter.*
George Morrison, STLE CLS
And you just put it on the base of your oil filter? Remove it prior to oil change and slap it on the new filter?
Sintered or bonded neo mags?
Sorry if it's a lot of questions. Just reading stuff from:
http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/magnets.htm
And trying to figure out size, type, and price.
Something like this should work, right?
http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/detail.aspx?ID=90
Georgecls:
Regarding Neo placement. Anywhere the magnet size you use will have a secure flat surface to adhere to. A neo half the size of a pencil erasure can have tremendous magnetic strength... Your hard drive is run by a miniscule neo magnet and yes I have seen those magnets attached to oil filters; they work just fine. It would be good to have a zinc coated magnet as neo is quite friable, fragile: do NOT play with neo once you get it. The magnet is so strong that it has the capability of destroying itself.. It IS tempting for all men to play with magnets.. Neo's are NOT to be played with. Get it, put it on the filter, forget it.. Some neo is strong enough to not only destroy itself but smash fingers on their way to steel..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Georgecls:
One point I did not get answered relative to the Neo. With each filter change you just remove the Neo magnet, change the filter, then re-install the magnet on the new filter.. If you have a filter cutter you will find some amount of powder/paste ferrous on the inside wall where the magnet was located. In some cases I have seen fairly significant amounts of powder/paste/chunks after the initial install, then settling down to just a small amount of powder/paste.
We are removing one of the most abrasive components (steel) in our engine oil and with our combination gearbox/engine, the gearbox is continually generating steel wear particles ranging from angstrom size up through chunks and clunks. Our oil filters are filtering down to around 30 microns, leaving particles from 30 microns and smaller essentially unfiltered. The Neo, as I mentioned before, will provide filtration for that missing segment of wear particles. And reduce the loading on the filter element to do its job better.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, if I may refer you to an earlier comment you made where you said* that "When full synthetics are cooled, they do not thicken as mineral base oils do.* Same when heated; they retain their viscosity and do not thin."
I've just been out on bike for about 50 miles. Before leaving I checked oil level in sight glass in garage where temp was 7°C and it was noticeably slow in climbing up the glass as I lifted the bike upright from sidestand. When I returned, the oil was at 100°C and visually much more fluid so obviously thinner. I'm using Shell synthetic 10W-40. You've posted some good stuff George, but I'm not convinced about this one?
I posted yesterday to say with an ambient of 7°C* the max oil temp was 74°C. Today the ambient was about the same but I had blanked the oil-cooler with cardboard and the oil temp got to 90°C rising to 100°C at idle and bike stationary. I recommend blanking cooler to anyone with air-cooled engine at this time of year.
Georgecls:
Terry: Regarding synthetic oil viscosity stability relative to temperature change. My primary thrust was to hammer home the principals of viscosity change for synthetics vs. mineral based oils. Full synthetic oils do change viscosity with temperature change but on a side by side charting, the differerences in those rate of changes are significant. The engine oil you are using is labeled as a "unique fully synthetic lubricant" but is very likely a Group III mineral based oil. In Europe Castrol won the case that Group III Mineral based oils could be termed "synthetic". Later Castrol achieved the same here in the U.S. As example, the pour point indicated on the Product Data Sheet for Shell Advance Ultra 4 10W-40 is -30C (-22F).
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 has a pour point of -54C (-65F).
As you can see, the cold weather performance for a Group IV full, or shall we say 'real', synthetic engine oil is *significantly* lower than a Group III mineral base stock oil. The difference in pour points reflect the viscosity stability of a Group IV or Group V full synthetic... The same correlation applies for high temperature viscosity performance.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
CETME:
George,
I bought a Scotts steel mesh oil filter a while ago. It claims to filter down to 35microns Absolute. Do you feel this is sufficient? or would a Ducati filter offer better filtration/flow? Here are some specs on it. It has no Anti Drain back valve, which really isnt needed on our engines because it is mounted vertically, but it doesnt have a bypass valve either, which can be a good thing, if the flow is sufficient when the oil is cool. I bought it because I change my oil every 1000 miles due to the wet clutch. Do you have any experience with these types of filters?
* Laser cut, medical grade, type 304 stainless steel micronic filter cloth.
* Nickel-plated rare earth magnet installed in the top for magnetic pre-filtering.
* 6061 billet aluminum canister designed to dissipate heat effectively.
* 35 micron (absolute) filtration
* Roughly 57 gallons per minute of oil flow at 70°F, 1PSI
Georgecls:
Re: Scotts filter. I am sorry but I have no direct knowledge with this particular filter but am familiar with similar filter arrangements. If the filter is of high quality construction, yes, they work well. One disadvantage is that on many screen arrangements they do not have the particulate capacity of a comparably sized paper/cellulose element thus can fill relatively quickly. Some have 1/5 the amount of effective surface area of comparable traditional filters. Of the stainless mesh screens I have worked with they have installed a pressure differential alert to advise when cleaning needs to be done. That would be my only strong suggestion, which it appears you are already going to adhere to: clean the screen frequently and well. With all of paper/cellulous disadvantages, they are forgiving and do hold a significant amount of contaminants.. So, just keep a close eye on screen fill to ensure good filter flow, throughput, and filtration.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, I did ask on page 2 "Another question is what are you calling fully synthetic because there has been some dispute about which oils can be called that. "
I was aware of the dispute about what can be called fully synthetic and now you tell me that the Shell oil I am using(as recommended by Ducati) is very likely a Group III. I really thought that I was using a genuine synthetic oil.
What actually determines the group that the oil belongs to? Have you got a list of which oils are Group III and Group IV?
Thanks George.*
Georgecls:
Terry, again, very good investigative work on your part in your noting the cold flow/viscosity increase of your Shell Advance Ultra 4. At even +7C/44F your oil is beginning to thicken noticeably.
Unfortunately, no, there is no official list of what is and what is not a true synthetic (group IV & Group V) any more. With the European and U.S. rulings that group III's can be called synthetic oils, one must dig through product data sheets for the information as to the oil's makeup.
It is discouraging, as everything we have been discussing in this thread has been relative to Group IV and Group V synthetic oils. Your question, comment and real world findings were at an excellent time in this discussion. Thank you,
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, when I got this bike I was concerned when I saw the oil temp reach 130°C so contacted Shell to ask what temp the oil was ok for. I had this reply:
'Thank you for contacting Shell UK. Its generaly considered that bearing lubrication* in engines ceases to be good enough when the oil viscosity falls below 4 cSt.( In a passenger car )* *I have calculated that Advance Ultra 4* 10W 40 would need to reach about 180 C to get that thin . As this is a powerfull motorcycle it would be prudent to make an allowance and limit the temperature to 160 C.At 130 C the oil in question would be about 9 cSt.
Again being synthetic , short periods at 130 C are well within the capability of Advance Ultra.
I would expect the condition of the oil to deteriorate quickly beyond use at about 200-220 C. I hope this answers your questions.'
That appeared to be in-line with the fact that the high oil temp light comes on at 170°C and I have seen a temp of 150°C in very slow moving traffic with little* air flow.
I've just looked at the Mobil website and they say this about their V Twin oil:
'As you know, a typical air-cooled V-twin's rear cylinder gets a lot hotter than the front cylinder – it's a matter of airflow. When it's hot out and you're stuck in traffic, the oil temperature in your bike climbs rapidly. Above about 250°F, conventional motor oil is going to break down. Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic oil is good to above 300F'
300°F* = 149°C so really is not capable of the temp I've experienced even though this oil is specifically recommended for hot engines. I couldn't find a temp for the MX4T grade.
What are your thoughts on temp capability please?
zarn02:
Georgecls:
Terry, as we have discussed, Group IV and Group V synthetics create less heat and then dissapate that heat at a faster rate than do mineral based oils.* Thus your experienced 150C* (300F) with your current oil in extremely high ambient temperatures may not have occurred with a group IV or group V base stock oil.* I have seen many cases where the use of Mobil group IV or group V synthetics have lowered operational temps as much as 25 degrees F / 14 degrees C.* It may be a moot point.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, I understand whay you are saying about a Group IV oil running at a lower temp than a group III but I am interested in the fact that Mobil only claim that their V Twin oil is good to above 300°F. It doesn't sound very high compared to the max temp of Shell Ultra 4, which you suspect is only a group III.
(Out of interest, I saw 150°C in very slow traffic, 1st & 2nd gear, with an ambient below 20°C last Sept.)
After reading all your advice I feel I may have been conned into believing the Shell was something it may not be and I'm thinking I may try the Mobil MX4T. The only concern I've got now is that at this time of year I actually want heat in the oil and don't want the reduction in temp that the Group IV oil may give. I told you I wasn't happy 2 days ago when the oil temp only reached 74°C and I saw some condensation on sight glass. It looks like I can't have everything I want then; an oil that is thin when ambient is low so will reach bearings better but at operating temp I want an oil temp high enough that I don't get condensation diluting the oil?
Georgecls:
Terry, I would suggest you should not look to the oil to provide your heat for your engine. Some other method of increasing heat would be a more logical solution. You *need* the lubrication a group IV or group V will provide on start-up, cold running; look to some other means to create the heat, whether it is blanking off a portion of the oil cooler, cowling, etc. In aircraft operations with air cooled engines, this is exactly what we do in winter: install winter baffles..
And if you do experience condensation simply change the oil more frequently. The issue with entrained moisture is not so much a lubrication function, as engine oils are designed to hold water in suspension, but one of internal corrosion.
The 300F / 150C your saw in the Mobil discussion was as an example. Mobil 1 MX4T will function well at higher temperatures, but is a function of how long the oil operates at those extreme temperatures.
Regarding the belief that you were running a true synthetic engine oil. You are not the only one Terry. If you polled the people at Ducati Central, each and every one would be of the understanding that the oil is a full synthetic oil. That is what the Product Data Sheet says exactly: "Advance Ultra 4 is a unique, fully synthetic lubricant for ultimate engine protection and performance". But the next sentence is the giveaway: "Founded on Shells XHVI synthetic base fluid technology" The key word is: "XHVI is Shellspeak for Exta High Viscoscity Index Group III base stock oil. As opposed to the average Group III which may not have a natural Viscosity Index as high as the extra high VI base stock. But even in an XHVI refinement, these base stocks do not provide the performance levels of a Group IV or Group V base stock.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
Thanks again George, and you've convinved me to try the MX4T. The movement of the Shell oil in the sight glass first at 7°C then at 100°C told a lot about the oil. It will be interesting to look at the Mobil at the same temps. If it's no different I'm sending you the bill George -I'll want my money back. [laugh]
Georgecls:
I have Mobil 1 MX4T in mine and at -12C/10F my oil flowed freely in the oil window... :-) I froze my tail off riding to the shop for updates 3 weeks ago, however!
I think you will be very pleased, especially in the feel of the engine, ease of shifting; you will notice a difference after a few days of riding. it takes a bit of time for the MX4T to get to all the nooks and crannies of the engine and transmission..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
dakinebusa:
Indeed George, a very good technical thread.
I still stand by my opinion the Mobil 1 auto oil is more than adequate for any real world motorcycle service and that the clutch issue is not a problem.
I do not get clutch slip at the 165 bhp level in my Hayabusa with a stock clutch.
Similarly, I am aware of a 500 bhp street busa with 20000 miles and no issues at teardown.
Several land speed records have been set by busa's using Mobil 1 car oil.
I do not have any clutch issues with my E900 on Mobil 1.
I would probably run the mc specific oil but I cannot buy it off the shelf here in the sticks.
The one place that I have found just how good synthetics are is in gearboxes.
Red Line MTL gets my vote for highly loaded automotive gearboxes.
What do you think about running synthetic ATF?
I am planning to change the tranny lube in my 4wd using a vacuum machine and am thinking about going synthetic.
Georgecls:
Synthetic ATF is a win/win.* With the constant pressure to decrease automobile weight, our automatic transmissions have been the target for weight loss.* Automatic transmission used to hold huge amounts of ATF which enabled a very important process: cooling..* Current automatic transmissions have half or less the volume ATF and size compared with just a few years ago.* Heat is the #1 cause of demise as we just do not have sufficient cooling volume.* *Mineral based ATF fluid's constant exposure to elevated temperatures results in high rates of oil oxidation.* The by-produdts of oxidation are a whole host of acids which in turn attack clutch facings, yellow metals, and bearing housings.
Back to rule #1 with synthetic Group IV and Group V basestocks: they create less heat and then disappate that heat at a much higher rate than mineral based oils. Also, synthetic ATF is very resistant to oxidation.* Thus Synthetic ATF will run cooler, enable even better clutch interface as the clutch facings are running cooler and damaging acids will not be produced; the result is a much smoother shifting, longer lasting (big time) transmission..*
George Morrison, STLE CLS
CADUCMAN:
I always put full synthetic in my S4R, my local shop put in semi-synthetic during my 6K service. Is this OK?
Georgecls:
Regarding semi-synehtic engine oil vs. your regular full synthetic. There should be no operational problems. However, in oils, as in chains, the weakest link determines the total strength of the chain/oil and with the mineral oil component, we have a weak link. Mineral based oils, as previously discussed, do not have a natural viscosity index, oxidation resistance, film strength and purity of a synthetic base stock. Thus, a synthetic blend contains a component of lower performance capability.
The other issue is that there is no qualification or accepted standard of exactly what constitutes a "synthetic blend". ie a synthetic blend could contain as little as .0001% synthetic base oil (and that could be a group III) and can legally be referred to as a "synthetic blend".
As we have seen, a synthetic based engine oil may not be a "real" synthetic at all; with a synthetic blend, it is anybody's guess as to what its components are.
However, there should be no conflicts of chemistries with the oils. Just performance levels.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
friedduck:
George you're inexhaustible!
I'd heard years ago that heavier viscosities provided greater resistance to shock loads. Now at the time I presumed that to mean that they had a thicker film and that the film would be maintained better under higher loads. Any truth to this? (This is one of those things that I've believed for years without any basis.)
Finally thank you. I dug out the manual to my new-to-me Duc and sure enough: 10w-40. I'll feel a lot better about running a lighter viscosity having read this.
Jeff
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