Hanging off, trail braking and cornering

[Raux]

Well i started to realize that i've been fighting the bike for a long time.

yesterday i started to hang 'one cheek' off the seat on turn pulling my outer leg to the tank and outer elbow in. the bike goes into the corners so well, wondering if i'm gonna scrape pegs (which i'm sure i had tons more but i just never had such great lean angles). i feel so much better aboout tighter corners at speed not worrying about going wide so much as wondering when i'm gonna touch paint on the inside edge now.

i've also starting touching the rear brake as a trail brake speed adjuster more. not always getting on the fronts to make slight adjustments to speed doesn't upset the balance the bike so much and is setting me up better for corners and even helping in town riding.

anyway, just wanted to share a good part of the ride home yesterday. (read the high speed wobble post to read the wierd part)

[Monster Dave]

Congrats! But remember, if you're scraping hard parts that you're probably in the wrong body position.

 

[bschur13]

I just read through total control and I thought it was a good read.  Now I cant wait for the warm weather to start trying out the new techniques. 

One of my questions was what you touched on... How much rear brake vs. front break when setting up for turns?  I am a little weary now about locking up one or the other when attempting to use "trail braking".  In the book it only really talks about using the front but I would think using the rear would be a way of keeping some weight off the front tire and more toward the rear where you want it.  I think I remember a rider telling me once that on the track, riders get the rear of the bike to "squat lower" by just slightly using the rear brake?  Dont know if this is the case. 

I guess the next read is twist of the wrist II.   

[Monster Dave]

When I took the course, Lee had use working on both ends of trail braking. It was a great course and will teach you a lot! Good luck! 

[ScottRNelson]

It is my opinion that trail braking is a bad habit on the street.  It took me a couple of years to completely get over the habit.

I prefer the delayed apex turn as explained by David L. Hough in his two Proficient Motorcycling books.  You get all of the braking done before the start of the turn, begin the turn at the far outside edge of the lane, then give it light throttle and come to the inside of the turn right as the turn ends.  This also leaves you perfectly set up for an S-turn.  If I ever need to touch the brake in a turn I consider it some sort of riding error (except for maybe steep downhill sections).

Both Lee Parks (Total Control) and Keith Code also recommend some throttle while in the turn.  I don't remember Lee Parks ever mentioning balancing the bike in a turn using the brakes.

There might be different rules for the race track, but on public roads I do what is most likely to allow me to keep riding longer (i.e., avoiding crashing).  And that is the delayed apex turn.

[Ivan]

yesterday i started to hang 'one cheek' off the seat on turn pulling my outer leg to the tank and outer elbow in. the bike goes into the corners so well, wondering if i'm gonna scrape pegs (which i'm sure i had tons more but i just never had such great lean angles). i feel so much better aboout tighter corners at speed not worrying about going wide so much as wondering when i'm gonna touch paint on the inside edge now.

If you are positioning your body correctly, with your weight towards the inside, you should be leaning the bike itself much less, reducing the chances of scraping hard parts.  That is the primary reason for "hanging off"; for a given speed through a corner you don't need to lean the bike as far over.

[Raux]

understand. i think i was getting a little crossed up on a couple of corners that's why the thought of scraping parts. but in reality i was FAR from scraping... just the bike was much farther over, ie i was taking corners faster than ever before.

[Spidey]

Different folks use their brakes differently as they enter turns.  People with a lot of dirt experience tend to rely on the rear brake a lot.  I never touch mine unless I get into dirt.  If you're finding that the front brake 'upsets' the bike too much, then you need to work on being smoother with your braking.  As you roll off the throttle, you should be getting on the brakes, so that the forks compression from the roll-off and from braking at the same time.  You don't want to roll off the throttle, compress the forks, have them bounce back up and then compress them again by braking. 

Scott's advice is right on.  If you're just learning to take turns faster and faster, this is a good time to focus more on your lines and less on braking.  If you feel like you need the rear brake to set your speed going into a turn, you likely can take the turn without any brakes whatsoever as long as you have good line selection.  It's better to learn by braking earlier and getting on the throttle earlier (even if you go through the turn slower) than charging a turn, braking as much as you can up to and through it, and then trying to carry speed.  It's weird, but if you brake early and get on the throttle earlier, it's often much faster through the turn.  It just doesn't feel nearly as fast.  If you were riding on the track, you'd find that the fast way through many turns is the way that feels the slowest and most controlled. 

FYI--What you're talking about is not technically trail braking.  Trail braking is done with the front brake and involves slowly letting off the front brake from your turn-in point to the apex of a turn.  It is more advanced technique and not one that I'd try to perfect on the road if you are a newer rider. 

[Cider]

FYI--What you're talking about is not technically trail braking.  Trail braking is done with the front brake and involves slowly letting off the front brake from your turn-in point to the apex of a turn.  It is more advanced technique and not one that I'd try to perfect on the road if you are a newer rider. 

Semantics I guess, but Ienatsch had us take a few laps while "trailing" the rear brake (no front brake allowed) at Freddie's school last summer.  It was a weird feeling (and it sucks in right-handers), but I was surprised how much I could slow down.

[Smokescreen]

If you are positioning your body correctly, with your weight towards the inside, you should be leaning the bike itself much less, reducing the chances of scraping hard parts.  That is the primary reason for "hanging off"; for a given speed through a corner you don't need to lean the bike as far over.

+1

If you are just starting to hang off, but carrying the same speeds you've always carried, the bike is at less of an angle now.  Having said that, you would be well served to practice one skill at a time.  Knowing how to brake in turns may be more beneficial that knowing how to drag your knee in turns, even if it's not as fun. 

As for body position, it seems every riding school teaches a slightly different one, but more or less your body should remain parallel with the bike, and just shifted to whichever side, and with your head down and aimed through the turn.  So, in a knee down right hander, your left inner thigh should be resting on your seat, with your head around where your rear view or bar end would be (this part isn't easy for me, I tend to be crossed up when I put my knee down) and you should be on the balls of your feet or on your toes.  Your body position should change only very fluidly, because major upsets can cause major downs. 

For your pace, you should prolly stick to the butt cheek on the saddle until you scrape your toe sliders on the pavers.  When I touched my toe slider down the first time, I stopped and told the rider I was with (while doing something like jumping up and down while still on the bike) and he said to me, "If you are dragging your toe slider, you can drag your knee.  Just hang off more, and put your knee out..." So on the next set, I touched the toe down, and put my knee out a little more and touched that too.  Then I began coming in with more body language, and I haven't touched my toe down since.  I try to limit the scraping parts to just my sliders.


When it happens, you need to pull over, finish screaming and jumping up and down, then go do it a few more times just to make sure it wasn't a fluke, then head home to call all your friends and gloat.  It'll be great.  Oh...  And don't forget to wear leathers if you are using body language.  Or it won't be great. 

[Raux]

well i got the Lee Parks book the other day and started browsing to begin with. i have started to use the right body language. i really tore it up 2 sundays ago with a friend. so much so that i think i need to get leathers.

OH and i found a deal for 2 piece leather suit. 140 Euros. on sale with an additional 15% and no taxes. something like 50% off.

[Raux]

well read some more lee and went out and applied some more.
that late apex thing is the shit.

[Smokescreen]

reading every bit of available data is paramount.  So is wearing leathers.  I was knee down when I lowsided, and had i not had leathers on, I wouldn't be near as pretty today as I am...     Seriously though, I'd likely have come out of it with a lot less skin, and significantly lightened knuckles, arms, right leg, right knee.  I destroyed a set of leathers, and now I love them all the more!  If you are going to sport ride, wear them.

who makes the leathers you are considering?

[Raux]

reading every bit of available data is paramount.  So is wearing leathers.  I was knee down when I lowsided, and had i not had leathers on, I wouldn't be near as pretty today as I am...     Seriously though, I'd likely have come out of it with a lot less skin, and significantly lightened knuckles, arms, right leg, right knee.  I destroyed a set of leathers, and now I love them all the more!  If you are going to sport ride, wear them.

who makes the leathers you are considering?

german company called probiker. picked them up. was riding with them today and a hard back protector and hard gloves. i feel way more comfrotable pushing the bike lower wearing them for sure.

http://www.louis.de/_404aba56b375f0cf3a4db11641371feed3/index.php?topic=artnr_gr&article_context=detail&grwgr=100&wgr=780&list_total=10&anzeige=0&page=0&artnr_gr=208007

here's a cool 360 view
http://www.louis.de/_404aba56b375f0cf3a4db11641371feed3/shop/shop_article_3dviews.php?artnr_gr=208007&anzeige=0&mottype=&typ_id=

plus they look good with the white 696

[Xiphias]

 Great choice . I lowside on Honda last year. My left side would have been severely burned had not been for the leathers. I walked away without an scratch on my body.

Rob