How many people actually make it through the learning curve??

[the_Journeyman]

That's a great explanation, Statler.  I often struggle with a good and succinct response to the "if you respect the throttle, you'll be ok" advice that is often given to new riders looking at machinery way beyond their experience level. 

Good point Spidey, on my 900SS, the throttle can get you in trouble, but the clutch can get you into trouble quicker.  A new rider + a super quick clutch + a torque 900cc mill = something bad

JM

[fastwin]

Some really good thoughts and advice here. This is my 45th year of riding. Old and smart helps. Also spent the first couple of decades riding dirtbikes and racing MX in it's early days. That was a lifesaver as far as learning bike handling skills. I wish everyone could learn to ride in the dirt first with no cars and crazy drivers. That is just not the case these days. Lots of newbies hit the street with their first bike ever and what a nightmare that is. Trying to learn all the controls, getting a feel for your balance, dicing it out with four wheelers, dodging animals and gravel/dirt covered roads... on, and lets through in some rain and wet pavement too.

I wouldn't trade my learning experience for yours ever. Good luck to you, be careful out there and ride smart. I am sorry for your friends, I hope they are all OK. I hope you will be posting 44 years from now celebrating your 45th!! [moto]

[GLantern]

That's a great explanation, Statler.  I often struggle with a good and succinct response to the "if you respect the throttle, you'll be ok" advice that is often given to new riders looking at machinery way beyond their experience level. 

+1 statler i just found a much better explanation for people when they are looking at a bigger bike, 

[DLSGAP]

I've seen this discussion on far too many forums to sit back and watch any longer.

From this day forward.. ALL states will use a tiered licensing system. A new rider, no matter age, weight, etc, WILL NOT be legally licensed to ride anything larger than a 125cc bike for their first year. Up to 500cc for year two. 600cc for the third year and not until the 5th year are they allowed to ride a liter bike. Special endorsements must be obtained for supersport bikes and may be done so through track schools to prove rider proficiency.

[gh0stie]

it comes up whenever anyone asks about good beginner bikes...

I don't think it's just the the power that gets people in trouble, it's the immediacy of the controls.   a ninja 250 doing 90 is still different than a ninja 600 doing 90.

The more slop or 'mush' that is taken out of the controls makes a bike more pleasurable for an experienced rider.    But the hamfisted grab at the brakes means a crash.  The hamfisted throttle control means a crash.  The difficult to modulate clutch means a stall and maybe a slow crash....or a jerky takeoff and an uncontrolled ride over a curb.

Beginner bikes are more forgiving.   shifts can be a little lazier...braking can be less smooth...control transitions can be a little less coordinated.

After a while one likes a bike that goes to 9 the instant you turn the throttle to 9.  In the beginning it's nice to be able to have the bike breeze through 2 to 8 to get to nine when you instantly put the throttle there.

After a while you like brakes that will stoppie the bike with a finger.   In the beginning it's nice to be able to use a little too much hand but not have the bike instantly lock the front.

After a while you like the smallest movement at the bars to make the bike steer quickly off in the direction you want.  In the beginning you like to have a stable platform that takes a little more control input to dive towards incoming traffic.

After a while you like...etc.etc.etc.

modern 600s are pretty sharp.  In the beginning I think soft is good.

I've made this same point to folks just learning....

i can recall at least 3 different mistakes I made on my old ex500 within my first month of riding  that would have out me on my ass if I'd been on a newer, more powerful bike (like a 600)

Instead, I managed to stay upright each time and learned valuable lessons, thanks to the forgiving nature of a "softer" bike.

None of these incidences occurred because I was "disrespecting" the bike,

they happened because I was a beginner (still am) and I made mental mistakes or misjudged things as new riders tend to do

Sorry OP, but your friends made a series of really bad decisions and I really find it hard to feel sorry for them

I think they should all take comfort in knowing that they lived to tell their stories, since others in the past have not been so lucky.

[hbliam]

My first ride was at age 6 on dirt. People should learn to ride on dirt. It doesn't hurt or cost as much when you crash (usually). After a year or so of every other weekend on dirt they will be more apt to be able to handle a motorcycle on the street. That experiance coupled with a street based motorcycle course (MSF) would help tremendously.

[DLSGAP]

a big problem i've seen with riders that get lucky and don't die from their poor decisions... is that they often write it off as just something that happens. its just part of riding.. everyone goes down right?

far too many riders don't learn a damn thing. not the right things atleast.

for example... i know of a rider that bought a cbr600rr for his first bike. we advised against it but he didn't listen. a week after buying it... he claimed he was bored with it cus it was too slow and he needed a liter bike.

then he talked about how he laid it down in traffic one day, how he almost hit a car one day... etc etc etc.

What did he learn from the wreck... "i should have had frame sliders".. his exact words.. not joking.

Some people just dont get it. sadly, some of them just can't be helped because they don't want to be

[pennyrobber]

I have to disagree with the size of the bike argument. Most of the stories I hear about  that deal with new riders crashing have to do with one of the following:

1) Running off the road due to target fixation
2) Low siding do to grabbing a handful of brake in a corner
3) Locking up either the front or rear wheel during panic braking

I would say the number that actually crash due to power related issues such as lighting the rear wheel up coming out of a corner or unintention wheelies is small. A little bike like a ninja 250 is just as susceptible to the three reasons listed above. What it comes down to is proper training (MSF and others) and not riding over you head.

[amcloud]

I've made this same point to folks just learning....

i can recall at least 3 different mistakes I made on my old ex500 within my first month of riding  that would have out me on my ass if I'd been on a newer, more powerful bike (like a 600)

Instead, I managed to stay upright each time and learned valuable lessons, thanks to the forgiving nature of a "softer" bike.

None of these incidences occurred because I was "disrespecting" the bike,

they happened because I was a beginner (still am) and I made mental mistakes or misjudged things as new riders tend to do

Sorry OP, but your friends made a series of really bad decisions and I really find it hard to feel sorry for them

I think they should all take comfort in knowing that they lived to tell their stories, since others in the past have not been so lucky.

I totally agree with you, I discouraged the purchase of the R6 in the first place, but a ninja didn't look cool enough.  When I was told this morning about the wreck, I told him I hate to say it but since he was still walking it was probably good the bike was gone.  I told him to take it as a learning experience and if he decided to get another one down the road; he should take the cautious route by buying a small bike and taking the appropriate training.

[Spidey]

A little bike like a ninja 250 is just as susceptible to the three reasons listed above.

No, it's not (as to #2 + #3).  The brakes are dogshit.  Bad for braking, but good for not locking them up even in panic braking.  It's a classic example of Statler's point about "slop in controls" being good for first timers.

As for #1, don't discount approach speeds and bike size/weight as they affect target fixation.  A wee bitty ninja is going to approach a turn slower (and be slower through it) and be easier to turn for an inexperienced rider.  Both of those gives more time and leeway to respond if you start fixating. 

[Jetbrett]

As a newb, I thought I should chime in.  Before buying my first bike at 41, my prior riding experience was limited to a single ride on a minibike, a bunch of rides on the old Honda  three-wheelers, and riding my wife's scooter in college.  I am pretty athletic and had prior car racing experience so I had at least some background in the physics and skills required to ride.  I also read a lot...Proficient Motorcycling, Sport Riding Techniques, Total Control, etc. and took the MSF safety class and, though I LOVED the S4RTestastretta and the Triumph Speed Triple, I decided a bike with that much power would be a mistake.  I knew at the time that I would probably drop it at least once when I started to ride and that I should have gotten a Suzuki SV650, I was drawn to the look and feel of the Monster.  Since buying my 695 last April, I've put on 11,000 miles in all weather conditions including rain, hail, and  snow (we're having a weird winter here).  

Lessons learned in the first year of riding:

1. The day I passed my MSF course (I was qualified to ride in a parking lot at that point) I went for my very first ride and promptly dumped the bike when I braked in sand while pulling off the road.  Except for a broken shift lever, the bike and I were fine = riding is A LOT harder than it looks.  I should have paid more attention to the road conditions and not locked up when the front wheel began to slide.

2. After several months of riding I felt confident enough to go out with a friend with years of experience.  On a tight left turn, I hit a dip in the road at the apex of a turn, froze, fixated on the ditch, and rode right in.  I went over the handle bars and remember seeing sky, mud, sky, mud, sky, mud etc.  Remarkably,  the bike and I were fine again except for a bent handle bar.  Riding home I looked like the swamp thing. = riding well is A LOT harder than it looks.  It is impossibly easy to fixate and you really do go where you look.  

3.  I've  made a bunch of other errors and have had some emergency situations...trying to keep up with far more skilled riders (a great idea if you want to kill yourself), losing the front on gravel accelerating out of a turn, being run off the road by cab (a foot in the fender tends to get their attention), etc. and have felt my skill and confidence level increase.    That said, I am still a long way from being what I'd call a proficient rider.  I still read obsessively, try to ride every day, and am signed up fora track school this summer.  I've also discovered that I love to ride....I get depressed when I can't....and that I want to do this until I age to the point that I physically cannot do it any more.  I'll get a side car then.  [moto]

[Stangman]

Count me as a "survivor" of the learning curve  

I don't get too crazy though so that probably has something to do with it.

I think for a lot of new riders these days the issue is they don't want to ride the gay-looking 250 and 500 Ninjas. They want the cool-looking GSXR or whatever right away.  And they dont want to spend a weekend riding the 250s at the MSF class either cause its not cool or whatever.

I learned on a dirtbike at a pretty young age and let me tell you that is a great way to learn.  Dirt is much more forgiving than pavement.    Then I went over 10 years without riding before getting my first streetbike: mine was a gay looking $1,000 Ninja 500.  AND I took the MSF class too just so I could be as prepared as possible.  I learned a lot on that bike and even though it wasnt the cool bike, it was something I couldn't easily get myself into trouble on and I got my techniques down on it.  I did almost dump it twice (both times on a sandy corner) but managed to never even so much as tip it over.  It was a VERY FORGIVING bike.

Then came the Monster!  

I plan to take the advanced rider course hopefully this summer.  Always more to learn!

[NWapex]

My first ride was at age 6 on dirt. People should learn to ride on dirt. It doesn't hurt or cost as much when you crash (usually). After a year or so of every other weekend on dirt they will be more apt to be able to handle a motorcycle on the street. That experiance coupled with a street based motorcycle course (MSF) would help tremendously.

+1.  I started at a very early age in the dirt as well.  I have not met a dirt rider that has not been down in the dirt, which in many cases means you are riding close to the edge of control under a variety of conditions.  I would never ride this way on the street, but you may get closer to this type of riding at a track day.  I think that a lot can be learned about the handling characteristics of a bike in those conditions.  

[pennyrobber]

No, it's not (as to #2 + #3).  The brakes are dogshit.  Bad for braking, but good for not locking them up even in panic braking.  It's a classic example of Statler's point about "slop in controls" being good for first timers.

I agree that the slop does give a forgiving buffer. I will say though that, during my own MSF course so many years ago, more than one person locked up a front tire resulting in a dropped bike during the parking lot drills. This was on Nighthawk 250's. The average driver jumping onto a bike has the instinct, it a panic situation, to mash the brake as hard as possible.

If you are still not convinced, we could go borrow someones Ninja 250 and take turns trying to lock up the front wheel.  

[Spidey]

If you are still not convinced, we could go borrow someones Ninja 250 and take turns trying to lock up the front wheel.  

Been there, done that.  Slid four-yever on my butt and speed hump (rotating slowly the entire time -- kinda trippy) and came to rest about 20 feet from an ambulance waiting by the turnworker station.  Paramedic rolled down his window, asked if I was ok, and then just rolled it back up after I told him I mighta broke a nail.     Seriously, I did break a nail though.