ducati air cooled engines.

[Special K]

Simple these engines may be but cheap? That's just silly. Parts are crazy expensive (If you wrench yourself)  and timing belts that need to be changed frequently, not the most cost effective. It sure wasn't cheap to buy either. So, I ask; which is the cheap part?

I bought this bike knowing it would be more expensive to own. Looks cool, sounds cool, handles well and is fairly dependable, my main criteria.

And yes the Aztek is one of the ugliest cars ever conceived by man, but is it uglier (is that a word) than the Toyota Prius? Honestly if you want people to get on board with this "planet saving" badge of honor shouldn't it look like an Aston Martin?

[sally101]

+1. I had someone last week bemoaning the complicated Desmo set up on my Monster and I just laughed. He was riding a Honda with VTEC.

Desmo is a really simple mechanism, it's just not as tolerant and as such needs to be checked and adjusted regularly.

Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves. VTEC may be on par with desmo on a per cylinder basis, but consider that inline 4s can share the same camshafts (and other parts) since they are all in a nice neat line. With L twin, you have to duplicate many parts because the heads are not inline and you essentially have 2 separate (but linked via belts) valve trains.

[kawazar]

Why do we have to make excuses for these engines?!!. Clearly the reason is nostalgia and character, not performance!! The 2 valve, air cooled engines may produce a bit more torque but for the most part any other modern engine configuration is more efficient than our engines. At the end of the day the reason Ducati still produces these obsolete engines is because enough of us still "like them". That is it, end of the story.

I, like most Ducatisti, constantly make fun of Harley Davison's owners but at the end of the day we like our bikes for very similar reasons.

Air compressor on wheels thats what I call HD's!

[Raux]

Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves. VTEC may be on par with desmo on a per cylinder basis, but consider that inline 4s can share the same camshafts (and other parts) since they are all in a nice neat line. With L twin, you have to duplicate many parts because the heads are not inline and you essentially have 2 separate (but linked via belts) valve trains.

i think you would have to count the springs.
so a desmo has the actuators x 2 per valve.
a spring valve would have the actuator (tappet or other item between the cam and the valve) and the spring plus you are using power to overcome the spring tension on opening, something the desmo doesn't have to do, therefore is more efficient.

the best would be a pure hydraulic or electrical desmo valvetrain with only the valve moving. no springs. no additional moving parts. electronically controlled with no cams.
the only recipricating parts would be the crank shaft, gearbox, clutch and wheels. the only high velocity moving parts would be the valves, pistons and con rods. you could concentrate the weight loss on those compenents and get a high revving lightweight quick reponse monster of an engine. and with the right combinations make it air cooled.

[Scottish]

Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves. VTEC may be on par with desmo on a per cylinder basis, but consider that inline 4s can share the same camshafts (and other parts) since they are all in a nice neat line. With L twin, you have to duplicate many parts because the heads are not inline and you essentially have 2 separate (but linked via belts) valve trains.

I've worked on a lot of bikes, I-4's, I-twins, singles, L-twins. I came to Ducati cause it was cool, I fell in love because it's the easiest bike I've ever worked on. Maybe my head and the Duc engineers are just geared the same, but if you want to talk about ease of maintenence and logical layout the Duc is tops on my list.

[mitt]

Not sure how you measure simple, but Desmo has at least 2x the moving parts in the valve train as standard spring actuated valves.

Nope. 

mitt

[Pedro-bot]

 

[DrDesmo]

+1. I had someone last week bemoaning the complicated Desmo set up on my Monster and I just laughed. He was riding a Honda with VTEC.

So? - the VFR w/ VTEC has a valve service interval of 16k, and loads of riders have no issues never checking them.  (One fellow I know has 80k on his VTEC VFR and has never looked at the valves)

Adam

[superjohn]

So? - the VFR w/ VTEC has a valve service interval of 16k, and loads of riders have no issues never checking them.  (One fellow I know has 80k on his VTEC VFR and has never looked at the valves)

Adam

My point wasn't so much a slight against VTEC or Honda, but merely an observation of someone thinking Desmo is complicated where variable valve timing is not.

I love VTEC. It makes the 3.0 in my Accord 6-spd a lot of fun.

[DrDesmo]

My point wasn't so much a slight against VTEC or Honda, but merely an observation of someone thinking Desmo is complicated where variable valve timing is not.

I love VTEC. It makes the 3.0 in my Accord 6-spd a lot of fun.

Ah ok - sweet car!   

Adam

[junior varsity]

Sigh.

Seriously, the pro's were that it was simple, easy to work on on your own.

Simpler than the VTEC system.

To bring up that VTEC has lasted X miles without needing adjustment is not really on point.

The point was that the technology used on the air cooled engine was simple enough for a home garage to tinker with. I like the dry clutch because I can change my clutch, on my own, in a matter of minutes.

[DrDesmo]

Sigh.

Seriously, the pro's were that it was simple, easy to work on on your own.

Simpler than the VTEC system.

To bring up that VTEC has lasted X miles without needing adjustment is not really on point.

The point was that the technology used on the air cooled engine was simple enough for a home garage to tinker with. I like the dry clutch because I can change my clutch, on my own, in a matter of minutes.

Simplicity isn't always best: pushrod engines are simple, manual steering is simple, not having an air conditioner in your car is simple, cable actuated clutches are simple, not having abs is simple... Heck, a kickstarter is simple.  Doesn't mean they're the best, and there's a difference between "tinkering" and "making it easy to do your own maintenance because they fall out of spec every few thousand miles"

Personally I enjoy my "ugly duck" 4V and the fact it runs at 150 degrees caning it 

The fact that we Ducatisti continually find excuses ("simplicity" "passion" "soul" whatever...) for our machines shortcomings never ceases to amaze me.  Note the D16 runs gear driven cams, note the 848 runs a wet clutch, etc etc.

Cheers,
Adam

[superjohn]

Simplicity isn't always best: pushrod engines are simple, manual steering is simple, not having an air conditioner in your car is simple, cable actuated clutches are simple, not having abs is simple... Heck, a kickstarter is simple.  Doesn't mean they're the best, and there's a difference between "tinkering" and "making it easy to do your own maintenance because they fall out of spec every few thousand miles"

Personally I enjoy my "ugly duck" 4V and the fact it runs at 150 degrees caning it 

The fact that we Ducatisti continually find excuses ("simplicity" "passion" "soul" whatever...) for our machines shortcomings never ceases to amaze me.  Note the D16 runs gear driven cams, note the 848 runs a wet clutch, etc etc.

Cheers,
Adam

I guess it depends on what values you prioritize  as "best". In the end, people own these bikes for the only reason that matters. Because they want to and they can. 

[DrDesmo]

I guess it depends on what values you prioritize  as "best". In the end, people own these bikes for the only reason that matters. Because they want to and they can. 

Exactly!     

Adam

[jftoha]

If you read my post again you will notice that I did not make an analogy of the engines. As I stated, we like the Ducati air cooled 2 valve engines because their character and a certain degree of nostalgia. Similarly, Harley owners like their engines because of their character and also nostalgia. The reasons for liking them are very similar, the engines are not.

Why do we have to make excuses for these engines?!!. Clearly the reason is nostalgia and character, not performance!! The 2 valve, air cooled engines may produce a bit more torque but for the most part any other modern engine configuration is more efficient than our engines. At the end of the day the reason Ducati still produces these obsolete engines is because enough of us still "like them". That is it, end of the story.

I, like most Ducatisti, constantly make fun of Harley Davison's owners but at the end of the day we like our bikes for very similar reasons.

While some things are common between the air cooled ducatis and harleys, most are not. Kind of a bad analogy.

While HD might also produce air cooled motorcycles, I fail to see many other similarities. Output per liter? Factory equipped oil coolers on the larger displacement models? Desmodromics? Lightweight?

If you mean that the owners are analogous because they choose the easy-to-work on bike, or pay obscene amounts of money for logo'd t-shirts, then I'd agree there.