when cornering...........

[That Nice Guy Beck!]

when you push the bar to lean the bike over, do you keep pushing the bar thru the turn or once leaned over do you re set the wheel in teh direction of the turn?

[Spidey]

It's not as conscious an act as you would think. 

You push the bar for the initial input (e.g. for right hand turn push right).  Then hold that pressure lightly on the bar throughout the turn.  If you need to lean more, push more.  But you definitely don't want to "reset" the wheel in the other direction.  Once you've given it your initial input, you shouldn't really have to think about whether you're pushing on the bar or not.  The key is keeping your grip on the bars really, really light.  IF you have them gripped hard, you're going to accidentally give some mid-turn input.  That will upset the bike and screw up your line.  The lighter you are on teh bars, the more stable it will feel and more easily you will be able to respond with an additional push if you need to lean a bit more. 

Remember that the "push" on the bars is more of a push forward than a push downward.  In fact, "push" is probably not the best word to use.  You're not manhandling the bike or making anything as dynamic as a push.  You're just putting pressure on the bars. 

[That Nice Guy Beck!]

It's not as conscious an act as you would think. 

You push the bar for the initial input (e.g. for right hand turn push right).  Then hold that pressure lightly on the bar throughout the turn.  If you need to lean more, push more.  But you definitely don't want to "reset" the wheel in the other direction.  Once you've given it your initial input, you shouldn't really have to think about whether you're pushing on the bar or not.  The key is keeping your grip on the bars really, really light.  IF you have them gripped hard, you're going to accidentally give some mid-turn input.  That will upset the bike and screw up your line.  The lighter you are on teh bars, the more stable it will feel and more easily you will be able to respond with an additional push if you need to lean a bit more. 

Remember that the "push" on the bars is more of a push forward than a push downward.  In fact, "push" is probably not the best word to use.  You're not manhandling the bike or making anything as dynamic as a push.  You're just putting pressure on the bars. 

thank you

[Pink]

I'm really trying to consciously counter-steer a bit more as I'm progressing with my learning (been riding about a month so far...) but man it's such a huge mind-make the beast with two backs (can I say that here?). I know on the one hand counter-steering just sort of "happens" whether you like it or not, but on the other I've gotta believe controlling that input consciously has to lead to better control and stability.

I haven't had the balls to go fully leaned into a corner yet but I've been riding locally with boots/jeans mainly recently. I'm going to give it a spirited attempt next weekend up at Angeles Crest or Rock Store with some leathers on and hopefully I'll have some positive experiences to report!

[corndog67]

With one month of riding experience, I would recommend that you just ride around, not worry about hauling ass around corners yet.  Angeles Crest and Rock Store aren't really the place for beginners to be riding, lots of people up there hauling banana's, if someone breezes you and you aren't expecting it, you could very well ride right off the road.   There really is no substitute for seat time.   Some good instruction, maybe even a riding school would do wonders also. 

Careful now.

[Pink]

With one month of riding experience, I would recommend that you just ride around, not worry about hauling ass around corners yet.  Angeles Crest and Rock Store aren't really the place for beginners to be riding, lots of people up there hauling banana's, if someone breezes you and you aren't expecting it, you could very well ride right off the road.   There really is no substitute for seat time.   Some good instruction, maybe even a riding school would do wonders also. 

Careful now.

I appreciate your concern and to be honest my trip up to Angeles Crest did feel like it was right at the edge of my comfort zone. The freeway ride there was the most unnerving actually. Maybe you're right, maybe I'll give it a few months of tooling around to get nice and comfortable. Another SoCal'r nice to meet you!

[Jetbrett]

I know your experience will differ from mine, but I had the same desire to learn quick last year.  Some of what you said certainly rung a bell and brought back "relatively" recent memories.   I managed two "get off's" last year trying to learn cornering on my own.  My problem was that once I started to corner I discovered that I freakin loved it.  I pushed harder and harder and before long I was in over my head.  It wasn't so much the concept of counter steering or basic cornering technique that did me it, it was the hidden dip at the apex.  As I found out to my regret you can be carving around a turn with no problem and then hit sand/gravel, oncoming traffic in your lane, a rough patch of pavement, etc without warning.  I jumped into riding a fairly technical road and handled the trip in with no problems.  On the trip out though, a cut in the pavement created a dip which "looked" level with the rest of the road.  It wasn't.  I got thrown off of my line and then fixated on a ditch, froze, and rode right in.   Nothing like going airborne, hearing your bike crash and then seeing sky, mud, sky, mud, sky, mud...mud...mud...mud to put how much you don't know into perspective.  I was lucky, I came out ok and other than a bent handle bar from going over the front, the bike was fine. 

Had I had just a bit more experience, I could have avoided the crash all together.  In fact, several months later did hit gravel in a tight turn, lost my front tire, but was still able to save it.  The only difference between the two events was experience.  If I was to do it over again I would have gone much slower (riding and learning).  Practice turns on roads that you know well and leave yourself a huge margin for error.   The fact is you will be surprised on the street every so often...an oversized truck coming down a mountain road 1/2 in my lane at the apex of a blind right is a recent memory.  If you ride anywhere near the edge of your ability these little surprises will cause you considerable grief.  Check out Twist of the wrist II, Sport Bike Riding Techniques, and Proficient Motorcycling....all good reading.

BTW, I'm a beginner like you.  Ive been at this for a year (14,000 total miles) and every time I master a technique that I originally thought was hard, I discover two more things I'm doing wrong or need to work on.   

[Jetbrett]

Oh yea, as to the original question, according to Twist of the Wrist, once you set your lean angle by initially counter-steering, it is the rear of the bike that actually controls the turn.  Check out the folks holding a wheelie around a corner for a good example of this.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that this should be the case, but then again, I'm no physicist. 

[fasterblkduc]

I'm an instructor at a performance riding school and one of the advanced techniques that we teach people is to countersteer out of the turn. This is when you are ready to stand the bike back up and come out of the turn. This is what racers do on the powerful bikes because you have to muscle the bike back upright as much as possible while getting on the throttle so that you have more contact patch for traction. You can do it to and you don't have to be hard on the throttle. I recommend starting out by giving it a light input at first until you start feeling comfortable because the bike wants to stand up on its own due to the gyroscopic forces. So start out lightly and push on the opposite bar that you did to turn in. You will feel instantly how the bike responds and it will then make sense.
What Spidey said is spot on and I want to stress even more that you should stay relaxed and keep your inputs minimal while cornering. Keeping your upper body relaxed is very important. Weight your pegs, shift your body, but keep your torso and arms relaxed. 
If you practice counter steering in and out of turns, you will feel what the bike is doing and it will make more sense.

[Spidey]

TNGB, I wouldn't try to countersteer upon exit of the turn just yet.  Like fasterblkduc said, that is an advanced technique.  No need to complicate things for now. 

For now, I'd just work on an affirmative countersteering input to enter a turn, and consistent but light pressure on the bar throughout the turn.   Make sure that before you initiate your turn, you complete your braking and get your body and head position set.

[That Nice Guy Beck!]

TNGB, I wouldn't try to countersteer upon exit of the turn just yet.  Like fasterblkduc said, that is an advanced technique.  No need to complicate things for now. 

For now, I'd just work on an affirmative countersteering input to enter a turn, and consistent but light pressure on the bar throughout the turn.   Make sure that before you initiate your turn, you complete your braking and get your body and head position set.

awesome thank you again

[EvilSteve]

As I understood it, depending on the setup of a bike, the bike can require constant input to keep it on line. Meaning that (without consciously doing anything) you'll maintain pressure on the bars to keep the bike on the desired line.

Smart people, thoughts?

FYI - this is all theory to most riders so don't feel like you have to do anything different.

[fasterblkduc]

As I understood it, depending on the setup of a bike, the bike can require constant input to keep it on line. Meaning that (without consciously doing anything) you'll maintain pressure on the bars to keep the bike on the desired line.

Smart people, thoughts?

FYI - this is all theory to most riders so don't feel like you have to do anything different.

Yes, you are giving it inputs without realizing it. In fact, overthinking the whole countersteering process can be counterproductive in my opinion. Without even knowing it, you are holding the bike on line. For argument's sake, pretend that you suddenly disappeared while cornering. The bike would stand itself up and start to go in a straight line like when you were a kid and hopped off of your bike. "ghostriding" Is what we used to call it...remember that?

I'm not a good writer so when trying to explain things via keyboard, my thoughts jump around. Spidey made me realize that I got ahead of myself a little. If I were talking to you face to face, I would not have made it sound like you should go out and try countersteering in and out of corners yet. Get comfortable with turning in and just letting your instincts take over for coming out of a turn because you will intuitively do the right thing. When you have done this for a while, and are comfortable, try the countersteering out of the turn. This method just kind of ties it all together...make sense?

[ducpainter]

Yes, you are giving it inputs without realizing it. In fact, overthinking the whole countersteering process can be counterproductive in my opinion. <snip>

Over thinking is counterproductive in general.

[EvilSteve]

Yep, thanks.

I've been consciously counter steering for some time but I don't always consciously think of counter steering to "un-lean". I was just remembering some reviews I've read where the journos have said they've had to hold the bike in a turn to stop it either falling down or straightening up.