when cornering...........

[Statler]

how do you guys stand the bike back up post turn if you're not countersteering?   You're certainly not just leaning your body.

how do you transition from a right to a left turn?


it's the easiest and fasted way to change the direction/angle of the bike, so why not learn to do it earlier rather than 'just riding' and doing it right later?

[ducpainter]

I think there is perspective involved in all of this.

[EvilSteve]

I mean consciously counter steering, I know I'm using counter steering but I'm not consciously doing it most times unless I think about it. I've read (don't remember which book) that it's good to practice actively using & thinking about counter steering in & out of a corner so I practice it now.

Please don't start the body steering discussion! 

[Jarvicious]

how do you guys stand the bike back up post turn if you're not countersteering?   You're certainly not just leaning your body.

how do you transition from a right to a left turn?


it's the easiest and fasted way to change the direction/angle of the bike, so why not learn to do it earlier rather than 'just riding' and doing it right later?

LIke fasterbikeduc mentioned, the bike will stand itself up just fine if you just STOP countersteering.  The advanced technique he was going over was counter-counter steering, which is basically what you do when you transition quickly from a lefty to a righty.  For example:

You have a nice long straight-away going into a sweeping left turn (about 90 degrees).  You set your body and push forward on the left handlebar while leaning left to hit the turn.  At a moderate pace, all you need to do is stop pressing on the left bar or verry gently press forward on the right bar to make the bike stand up. 

Now, take that same sweeping left hand turn and add a right hander just past the apex of the left.  At the same moderate speed, you would press the left going into the left turn and as you hit the transition, simply press forward on the right and regain your casual grip on the left while leaning to the right.  All the same applies at a higher speed, you just do it with more force and more quiickly. 

FTR, I've had my bike for just under a year now (first bike, put about 7k on it) and figured I'd share a little ride experience from last weekend.

We were running a pretty quick pace and none of the fun turns were until about 10 miles in so everyone's tires were good and warm by the time we hit the good stuff.  A guy on a VERY well tuned GSXR1000 was leading the whole day and I was trying to keep him in my sights at the bare minimum, let alone keep up.  Long story short we hit a series of good 80+mph sweepers with visibility for miles and the second or third curve in, I just decided to brake a little later than normal and stay on his heels.  Anyone ever heard of the perfect hit in golf?  This was the perfect turn.  I'm sure there were a ton of things I could have improved upon and despite the 1/4" chicken strip left on the rear tire, I'm sure I could have taken it faster and harder, but just that one turn I could feel every little thing the bike was doing.  I could feel the front forks squishing around.  I could almost hear the rear gripping, and nothing short of a 150lb whitetail could have budged me from that line.  7k in a year isn't that many miles, but keep riding and the little things start adding up. 

[Spidey]

how do you guys stand the bike back up post turn if you're not countersteering?   You're certainly not just leaning your body.

I step on the outside peg and push the bike up with my outside arm (which probably countersteers it up), while straightening the arm.  It's not an unconsious move.  In fact, it's a deliberate move to stand it up, but it's not consciously countersteering.  I never really thought about it as countersteering, but that sounds right.

how do you transition from a right to a left turn?

Poorly.   

[Statler]

LIke fasterbikeduc mentioned, the bike will stand itself up just fine if you just STOP countersteering.  The advanced technique he was going over was counter-counter steering, which is basically what you do when you transition quickly from a lefty to a righty.  For example:

You have a nice long straight-away going into a sweeping left turn (about 90 degrees).  You set your body and push forward on the left handlebar while leaning left to hit the turn.  At a moderate pace, all you need to do is stop pressing on the left bar or verry gently press forward on the right bar to make the bike stand up. 

Now, take that same sweeping left hand turn and add a right hander just past the apex of the left.  At the same moderate speed, you would press the left going into the left turn and as you hit the transition, simply press forward on the right and regain your casual grip on the left while leaning to the right.  All the same applies at a higher speed, you just do it with more force and more quiickly. 

FTR, I've had my bike for just under a year now (first bike, put about 7k on it) and figured I'd share a little ride experience from last weekend.

We were running a pretty quick pace and none of the fun turns were until about 10 miles in so everyone's tires were good and warm by the time we hit the good stuff.  A guy on a VERY well tuned GSXR1000 was leading the whole day and I was trying to keep him in my sights at the bare minimum, let alone keep up.  Long story short we hit a series of good 80+mph sweepers with visibility for miles and the second or third curve in, I just decided to brake a little later than normal and stay on his heels.  Anyone ever heard of the perfect hit in golf?  This was the perfect turn.  I'm sure there were a ton of things I could have improved upon and despite the 1/4" chicken strip left on the rear tire, I'm sure I could have taken it faster and harder, but just that one turn I could feel every little thing the bike was doing.  I could feel the front forks squishing around.  I could almost hear the rear gripping, and nothing short of a 150lb whitetail could have budged me from that line.  7k in a year isn't that many miles, but keep riding and the little things start adding up. 

I disagree with the continued pressing or continued countersteering idea.   the force required on the bars to keep a turn is about two fingers worth...which you need on the bar to keep the throttle open anyway.    The difference between the amount of pressure on the bar to turn the bike and the amount needed while leaned over if no change of direction is desired is a very big difference.   

I think you may find that if you are continuing to push the inside bar while leaned over what you are actually doing is a combination of pushing down on the bar instead of forward (thus applying pressure in a direction that doesn't move the bar), and countering the action with the other bar   (which a lot of people do when too tense).

Should be able to let go, or almost let go of the left bar after reaching the desired lean angle (not recommending this on the street).  Veeeery little input needed until time to change direction of travel/angle of bike.

On the street, it's just not all that common to turn in hard enough or transition fast enough to really feel this which is why a lot of people say they don't notice it.

We brought it up a while ago with countersteering....the highway lane change drill.     You can really crank on the bars at 60 mph.   Like really crank.   The bike changes direction and angle veeeeery quickly.   Much more quickly than you might expect.     Now to get it back upright you need to do the same amount of leverage countersteering the other way.   If you kept pushing the original way, or simply stopped pushing the original way, the bike isn't going to stand up...it's going to arc off into the guard rail.

bikes are very stable at speed.

Handy when there is an obstacle you cannot ride over on the highway.    Or a deer, or a stopped car in a corner....

[fasterblkduc]

Ok, great points being made here, and we are way into the "over thinking" territory here

Statler, you are correct about the bike being more stable with speed and this brings up even another point . The faster the bike is traveling, the harder you have to make your inputs because the rotating mass has even more power to keep the bike traveling straight ahead. You have to work harder to overcome the gyroscoping force so corner speed is a major factor in all of this.

Let's simplify this for those wanting to understand countersteering in and out of the corner...you guys already do it. Some are already concious of it, and some are not. Next time you go ride some twisties, just start thinking about what you are doing as you do it. You will be pushing on the bar for the direction that you want to go even when coming out of the corner. The countersteering out is less of an input because the bike wants to straighten up on it's own. You can give it some input to see how it feels but this is a more advanced technique that is done to force the bike upright quicker so that the throttle can be applied sooner/harder. Just go give it a whirl...just push a little on the outside bar when you want to stand the bike back up [moto]

[Statler]

and is allways the case, these discussions are more fun over drinks in person while watching racing.   Cheers, guys.   

[fasterblkduc]

and is allways the case, these discussions are more fun over drinks in person while watching racing.   Cheers, guys.   

True...so fly over here, and I'll buy you a drink

[Spidey]

make the beast with two backs that.  You guys fly here and I'll buy the drinks.  I'll even supply the racing.   

[ducpainter]

make the beast with two backs that.  You guys fly here and I'll buy the drinks.  I'll even supply the racing.   

Those sissy GP guys?

[swampduc]

I guess it's because wide bars require so little input at speed, but I really only consciously notice countersteering when I'm riding a bike with clip-ons.

[Jetbrett]

To put the matter of continuous (all the way through the corner) counter steer to rest, there is an experiment you can do.  Please don't get carried away with this and do it on a safe road with good sight lines and at a reasonable speed and with plenty of room and no traffic. 

Ok, disclaimer done.....Once you counter steer into a long sweeping corner....interstate clover leaf etc.....take your left hand off and with just the tips of two fingers, maintain a constant throttle.  Without counter steering and with a constant throttle which maintains your exact speed, the bike will continue turn without any additional steering input.  It won't deviate from the original turn in angle until you add throttle...which will slowly stand the bike up or until you counter steer out of the turn.   

[wantingaduc]

One of the things I've been working on this season is making sure that when I countersteer it's with a  light touch and that I'm pushing the bars specifically AWAY from me and not down.
I try to hold off on my turn until a bit later and then make a consciouses effort to steer the bike quickly into the turn by pushing the inside bar away while not gripping the bar tightly at all.
I find that thinking the process through SOME of the time helps when you want it to be an "automatic" action like riding the twisties quickly with my buds.

One other thing that I've done the whole time I've ridden is to pick up technique books (all of them) and work on a specific aspect of my riding for an entire season.
Be it turning in, counter steering, weighting pegs, looking far ahead while turning, panic breaking, whatever, i find it easier to drill that specific skill for the whole season and move on to something else the next.

jimi