New Mexico's mods and help thread...

[Cloner]

Max Permissible Spec as outlined by 2006 service manual:
.003" - .009" (converted from .01mm - .25mm)   Math error:  .01mm is .0004"....about a half a thousandth.  

Ducati typically publish separate specs for openers and closers.  Closers are typically tighter than openers.  Closers wear looser as the valve seat is beat into the head and as the valve collets flatten and dimple, openers wear tighter due to the same phenomena that make the closers wear looser.  The bottom end spec above (.01mm) is reasonable for a closer, but far too tight for an opener!

I generally adjust closers that are looser than .002".  I typically shoot for less than .001" for closers if I adjust them.  That is, I cant' fit a .0015" feeler gauge (the smallest one I have), but can still spin the shim with my fingers, indicating that it's not binding, and therefore not less than zero.   A piece of glass and some fine sandpaper help in fine tuning shim thicknesses.

Openers should be at least .003" clearance but not more than .007" in my book.  Current specs allow more clearance than that, but we each have our own thoughts on where to adjust, I suppose.  The dangerous ones are the ones at the BOTTOM of the spec, as they wear tighter.

Horizontal cylinder:
Intake 1
Opener: .003"  OK
Closer:  .0075"  OK for a two valver or "standard" four valver....I'd want to check for your valve system
Intake 2
Opener: .003" OK
Closer:  .006"  Adjust  Remember, closers typically wear looser.
Exhaust 1
Opener: .005"  OK
Closer:  .004"  I'd Adjust this one
Exhaust 2
Opener: .005"  OK
Closer:  .005" I'd Adjust this one

Vertical cylinder:
Intake 1
Opener: .003"  OK
Closer:  .0075"  OK...as above
Intake 2
Opener: .002" A little snug, so I'd adjust it.  Remember, Openers tend to wear tighter, not looser!
Closer:  .006" Adjust
Exhaust 1
Opener: .005"  OK
Closer:  .006"  Adjust
Exhaust 2
Opener: .005"  DEFINITELY ADJUST...this is almost holding the valve open, and may actually be holding it open once things get hot.
Closer:  .005"  I'd adjust this one

I'd love to swap shims with you, but if I'm not mistaken, your bike is one of those that has those "special" 6mm valve stems and I don't have any of those shims.  I also don't (at this point) have the special tools required to remove the tapered collets.  I've read some folks say that you can leave the piston at Bottom Dead Center so that you don't bend the valves whilst beating out the collets, but I have no personal experience with this, either.  

The "correct" method is to remove the heads from the bike and use a special support tool to remove the valves.  Maybe Zoob can do you a quickie if you just take him the heads....and most dealerships charge less for shims when they do the adjustment, as they just swap your old ones into thier inventory of shims.  That alone might cover the cost of labor, as the big time eater is removing the heads from the bike.  I'd be surprised if a head-off adjustment was more than two hours labor, so at $50 per shim (Man, that's expensive) it wouldn't take much to cover the labor if they only charge you half of retail for a shim swap (which is fairly common).

I've used tons of EMS shims in the past, but they don't currently make them for 6mm stems.  I know they've talked about it in the past, but no joy for now.  There are simply not enough bikes out there with your valve system to support tooling up for production....so I guess you're stuck with OE replacements.  That's harsh.

You might drop Mike at EMS a line and ask what his plans are for production.  At least he might think there's one more customer out there for them if he starts turning!

Good luck, in any case.

[Ratfink749]

I'd love to swap shims with you, but if I'm not mistaken, your bike is one of those that has those "special" 6mm valve stems and I don't have any of those shims.  I also don't (at this point) have the special tools required to remove the tapered collets.  I've read some folks say that you can leave the piston at Bottom Dead Center so that you don't bend the valves whilst beating out the collets, but I have no personal experience with this, either.  

The "correct" method is to remove the heads from the bike and use a special support tool to remove the valves.  Maybe Zoob can do you a quickie if you just take him the heads....and most dealerships charge less for shims when they do the adjustment, as they just swap your old ones into thier inventory of shims.  That alone might cover the cost of labor, as the big time eater is removing the heads from the bike.  I'd be surprised if a head-off adjustment was more than two hours labor, so at $50 per shim (Man, that's expensive) it wouldn't take much to cover the labor if they only charge you half of retail for a shim swap (which is fairly common).

I've used tons of EMS shims in the past, but they don't currently make them for 6mm stems.  I know they've talked about it in the past, but no joy for now.  There are simply not enough bikes out there with your valve system to support tooling up for production....so I guess you're stuck with OE replacements.  That's harsh.

You might drop Mike at EMS a line and ask what his plans are for production.  At least he might think there's one more customer out there for them if he starts turning!

Good luck, in any case.

Thanks for the reply.. Yes I have the "better" but still somewhat obnoxious 6mm valve stems.  I did recheck my math on the metric conversion.. yeah The .003 was .0039 and I just didn't round up.  I have a few questions about your logic in your response...

Horizontal cylinder:
Intake 1
Opener: .003"  OK
Closer:  .0075"  OK for a two valver or "standard" four valver....I'd want to check for your valve system
Intake 2
Opener: .003" OK
Closer:  .006"  Adjust  Remember, closers typically wear looser.  This is LESS than Intake 1 closer that is "OK" ??
Exhaust 1
Opener: .005"  OK
Closer:  .004"  I'd Adjust this one
Exhaust 2
Opener: .005"  OK
Closer:  .005" I'd Adjust this one

Vertical cylinder:
Intake 1
Opener: .003"  OK
Closer:  .0075"  OK...as above
Intake 2
Opener: .002" A little snug, so I'd adjust it.  Remember, Openers tend to wear tighter, not looser!
Closer:  .006" Adjust  Again, Less than Intake 1, (Wears looser) and 1 is "ok" but 2 is "Adjust?"
Exhaust 1
Opener: .005"  OK  (Same as Exhaust 2.. which is a "DEFINITELY ADJUST"??)
Closer:  .006"  Adjust
Exhaust 2
Opener: .005"  DEFINITELY ADJUST...this is almost holding the valve open, and may actually be holding it open once things get hot. (Exact same measurement as same valve on other head.. which is "OK?")
Closer:  .005"  I'd adjust this one

I'm not trying to poke holes in your logic, just trying to understand.  A while back I asked Boulder Motorsports what they'd charge, they said $300 for a heads-off S model valve adjust. (again.. Stupid 6mm special tools!)  I'll have to talk to PJ's.. See how much R and S experience and shims they have under their belts and what they'd charge. 

[Cloner]

I can't read, Wayne.  I saw .00075...note extra zero.  I guess the extra decimal threw me off.  You are correct that .0075 is too loose for a closer.

Ditto the "definitely adjust" opener....I saw .0005 (less than a thou), which is far too tight.  Blindness sucks.

Math, though, is another issue.  .1mm would be about .004", but .01 mm is .0004.  In your initial post you said .01mm...with a zero between the decimal and the one.

You should have different specs for openers and closers.

[kingbaby]

If you have the Green Canuder Valves, all rules are out the window.


 ..."Who's on first?" 


   

[Ratfink749]

Ahh Blindness explains all..    Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.  Service manual says:

Opening Arm:
Intake
Nominal .2 mm (.0078")
Operation: .18 mm - .23 mm (.0070" - .0090")
Check: .10 mm - .25mm (.0039" - .0098")
Exhaust:
(All the same as Intake)

Closing Arm:
Intake
Nominal .15 mm
Operation .13 mm - .18 mm
Check .10 mm - .25 mm
And.. as above.. Exhaust are listed at the exact same values.

Ducati.ms's "Hall of Wisdom" has a post on Revised Testastretta valve clearances of ".002” for closers and .005” for openers" 
Then someone else posted "i think the .002-.005 are the numbers to strive for when doing your clearance's.ducatis origial specs had a pretty big range that was great for not needing adjustments ,but flawed for optimum performance"

So hell I dont know..  I guess I'll start getting on my phone and seeing what kind of cash I'll be looking at for an "optimal" valve setup.  Then once I get that set, I can setup the cam timing.  Back to ye ole drawing board!

[Ratfink749]

If you have the Green Canuder Valves, all rules are out the window.


 ..."Who's on first?" 


   

My Canuder valves are blue... I think I gotta stick to the book on this one.   

[kingbaby]

My Canuder valves are blue.

No comment     

[Zaster]

Not knowing anything about the shim's makeup or shape, would it be possible to hone or grind them to the
desired thickness without compromising it's structural integrity or shape  

[Ratfink749]

Not knowing anything about the shim's makeup or shape, would it be possible to hone or grind them to the
desired thickness without compromising it's structural integrity or shape  

I've heard it's possible to sand down the opener shims to gain the desired clearance.. The closer's I'm not too sure about. (Although I'm not sure why not?)  The main problem I'd have is the fact that once I "break" the closer's off, I don't have the tool required to "press?" them back onto their taper locks.     Whether this taper lock system is better than the half-ring system used on the "normal" engines.. to me at least.. has yet to be determined.  Its a Duc.. So I guess like everything else, You gotta pay to play!   

[Cloner]

The taper system HAS to be better than the half-ring system. 

It's not uncommon for mechanics to work intake and exhaust valves with the same spec in a Desmo, but as you wrote, openers and closers have always had different specs for Desmos.

I've typically worked against "ideal" settings, but part of that may be because I remember when Ducati used MUCH more stringent specs for valves.  Today, they have a check every 12k.  When I first bought a Duc it was every 3k.  The biggest difference I can see is that the specs that Ducati publishes are just MUCH broader.....like more than double what was allowable 15 years ago.  Some of that may be due to better machining and/or materials (like valve seats), but I'll bet they're simply relying on the "helper" springs to maintain seat pressure on the closers more.  At that point, why not get rid of Desmo altogether? 

I'm sure the bike will run well as long as the valves are within the published "check" specs.  That means you probably don't need to do anything except adjust those .002 and .003 openers that are tighter than allowable.  They're outside of the published spec to the "tight" side...and openers are easier to replace as you don't have to displace the collets.

Ducati doesn't want to replace anybody's engine under warranty, so I'm sure they've invested significant time and effort to establish the current specs.  Your valve train has the loosest specs I've seen, and that, too, may be due to your unique valve train.  Heck....ask Zoob.  He's had more experience adjusting those type of valve trains than anyone else in the local area and I'm sure he wouldn't steer you wrong.

[Ratfink749]

I'll run my #'s over to PJ's tomorrow after work and see what they have to say.  If I tell em Scott sent me, or Stu send me.. They mark up the price 2x right?    Just want to make sure and not let TOO much info slip 

[Cloner]

Nothing to hide, so tell 'em as much as you like.  The truth always works best!

We work with PJ's, not against 'em.   

S

[Ratfink749]

Found this while bored at work searching other forums. 
Comparison on K&N Vs OEM Ducati oil filters:

http://www.tpoparts.com/articles/oilfiltercompare.html

Informative stuff right here!  Sounds like people can save some $$$ and take better care of their engines at the same time!

[kingbaby]

Good article, Wayne.
The only OEM's I have ran on my 749's, 999's & 1098's were the ones that came on the bikes. They have actually had a matching filter for a while, but, not advertised as a match.  The Mobil 1 rep turned me onto K&N oil filters about 15yrs ago, I never looked back. And at that time were very hard to find & pricey. 

[Ratfink749]

Project update:
Open heart surgery begins: (Translation: Baby is asleep and I had 30 minutes to myself)

Decided to get valve's adjusted before I set cam timing. Reason being, This way the heads are on, the belts are tensioned and everything is "Settled" when I set up the cam timing.  They're going to be sent to Colorado to Fox Performance.  I've heard many great things about his work and he quoted a pretty darn good price!

Engine decapitation:



To my dearest cylinder barrels, Please don't break your seal up to the crankcase.  I would truly appreciate it.




Testastretta cam's



Somewhat of a closeup of those damn taper lock collets that (under most circumstances) necessitate head removal for adjustment.



Going to try and get everything cleaned up, packaged up, and sent out this week so hopefully I can at least get the engine put back together before too long. Then onto other aspects of the project.