Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates

[ducatiz]

Chris,

I've been involved in this for almost 3 years now. 

You're right, ethanol is not the "lone evil component", the evil component is water, and indirectly, ethanol. I am sure my comments on the matter have been buried in the many pages.

PA6 nylon absorbs water, up to 10% of its volume, and as a result, expands.  To a lesser extent, it absorbs ethanol, but the culprit here is WATER.

Water can be present in any motor fuel, but ethanol (and all alcohols) absorb it directly from the air.  Pure gasoline will absorb about 1% by volume water when in a high-humidity environment, but ethanol can absorb 10 times that. 

The water-absorbent properties of PA6 are well known.  IT doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a gas tank is going to get some water in it, and since "E10" has been the law in most of the United States for more than a decade, it stands to reason that the product would have been tested for fitness in one of its biggest markets.

I don't think Ducati could have known that, they ordered a tank from a supplier.  The supplier should have understood that, however, I didn't buy the bike from Acerbis, I bought it from Ducati.

We can pregnant dog about the quality of the fuel we have on the market, but we also should expect manufacturers to produce vehicles that are compatible with the crappy fuel we have.  Other manufacturers are making gas tanks that are unaffected by ethanol or water. Why not these?

I have a virgin tank that I cut pieces from and tested.  You can do the same.  Cut a piece off and measure it.  Then dunk it in some water, leave it there for a day.  Take it out and measure it the next day.  It will be about 8-10% wider, taller and thicker.  Likewise with an ethanol solution (10-20%).  It will expand a very small amount, 2-5% max.

It's notable that Ducati is not using PA6 tanks everywhere.  Some are XLPE.

I'm reading this thread and I hate seeing all the frustration. It isn't Ducati's fault. Nor is it Acerbis' fault. If someone wants to point a finger, point one at the states with excess corn crop who lobbied for the asinine ethanol program. And point at the legislature who voted for it. And also point at the people who elected them. Still, I'm not convinced ethanol is the lone evil component in all of this.

Acerbis is working with nylon because it is understood to be good practice for use to contain gasoline and prevent emissions. And nylon is hideously expensive to make tanks from! The powder used to make a tank is somewhere near $500 to purchase. Right now, the best that the automotive industry can do is multi-layered blow molding with a layer or two of teflon mixed in. Then they added fluorine gas treatment to layer(s) of polyethylene during construction as this forms a great barrier. The latest I have read is the auto industry has come to the conclusion the best hope for gasoline with alcohol (ethanol) is fluorinated polyethylene mono layer construction.

With the near-term restart of our polyethylene Monster tanks, we will have them delivered out of state to be fluorinated so as to meet CARB requirements. Hopefully, the marketplace will be more receptive to this release of the MTT tank than before. The mold section for the top of the tank is nearly completed being carved from billet. This way, when I polish it, there won't be blemishes in the surface. Added to the new top finish, we have a new rotational molding company that knows how to properly "cross-link" our tanks. Once properly cross-linked, polyethylene is supposed to have the best dimensional stability with regard to gasoline. Finally, add in the fluorination to form the inner and outer barriers to reduce the ability for fuel vapor to penetrate the plastic and I would like to think our tanks will be a stable product, and one that will be paintable. I look forward to seeing how the fluorinated polyethylene tanks handle gasoline and perform.

- Chris

[twolanefun]

There is plenty of blame to go around and the biggest may be the one left out, the EPA. But regardless of how we got there the remedy that Ducati came up with quite frankly sucks and it will be a tranish on the brand for a long time. And knowing the problem exists they sell new motorcycles such as the 848 superbike and streetfighter with a known problem? - Gene

[Desert Dust]

There is plenty of blame to go around and the biggest may be the one left out, the EPA. But regardless of how we got there the remedy that Ducati came up with quite frankly sucks and it will be a tranish on the brand for a long time. And knowing the problem exists they sell new motorcycles such as the 848 superbike and streetfighter with a known problem? - Gene

+100% agreement

[wantingaduc]

the remedy that Ducati came up with quite frankly suck

Actually this might not be 100% correct.

It's not the remedy Ducati came up with, it's the one they had to work out with the lawyers in the class action suit. I personally think that had the issue not gone to court Ducati would have finally come up with a solution that we would all be happier about.
 
They were replacing tanks without MUCH hassle for the most part on almost all the effected bikes. And they didn't show any signs of stopping that practice. Now I understand they were replacing plastic tanks with the same plastic tanks, but given time I'm confident they would have worked out a solution to the problem that would have been better than the one we have now.

jimi

[ducatiz]

No way to determine that...  And actually the "fix" that was developed was done by Ducati -- in Bologna. 

[junior varsity]

No way to determine that...  And actually the "fix" that was developed was done by Ducati -- in Bologna. 

+1

[twolanefun]

+! +! I have heard that spouted before from inside circles, IMHO some were on denial. Other OEMs reacted differently Triumph went back to metal tanks, so did MG on the V7. And finally I have not heard of their solution to the 848 streetfighter which was introduced after the Class Action remedies were finalized, since as far as I know the tank is made from the same material it stands to reason that it is only a matter of time before there is a problem with that bike. But at least with that bike you can spend the money and put on an aluminum tank, just like the new 848 CORSE EVO SE has. - Gene

[Massinova]

It's notable that Ducati is not using PA6 tanks everywhere.  Some are XLPE.

Is XLPE used on all the new bikes with plastic tanks?   Any studies/observations on how it compares to PA6?

[ducatiz]

Is XLPE used on all the new bikes with plastic tanks?   Any studies/observations on how it compares to PA6?

Pa6 is still used in the USA.  I have seen some xlpe tanks overseas and heard the HTm is xlpe. 

You cannot paint PE tanks.   There are multiple types of PE and some will deform but i believe xlpe wont.  PE does not absorb water like nylon.

[Ducatamount]

Don't mean to change the subject but living in Southern VT we are technically in a "rain forest zone" (i.e. high humidity), so would a product like Startron help ?

[ducatiz]

Don't mean to change the subject but living in Southern VT we are technically in a "rain forest zone" (i.e. high humidity), so would a product like Startron help ?

I.e "naphtha and mineral spirits".

No.

[jerryz]

Ducati are now using 3 types of plastic PA6 , XPLE and PEX

however the problem in USA is that EPA will not allow PEX for some reason

Ducati have created a monster for themselves because many people dont trust the company any more over this issue and prospective buyers like me want assurance that the bike i am spending money on has a no deforming plastic tank ....well I know the issue well and my next puechase will be from a manufacturer using steel tanks , i am looking now at Kawasaki Z800 or a Triumph or MotoGuzzi .

[ducatiz]

Ducati are now using 3 types of plastic PA6 , XPLE and PEX

XLPE and PEX are the same thing. 

[jerryz]

XLPE and PEX are the same thing. 

OK but its was and maybe still is banned from use in USA by EPA ,i read a paper in a trade journal and  it  was mentioned in the court case ,
Ducati are useing PEX in Asia and europe and although some PA6 tank bikes got sold there too and have issues

[thought]

PEX isnt allowed in the US because it violates CARB laws due to the fact that it can outgas a little.