Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates

[Nekkid Tim]

Not necessarily. 

The emissions warranty only goes to 5 years or 18,xxx miles, whichever happens first anyhow, and plenty of folks with much more than 18k miles are getting replacements.

I think the real problem comes 7,8,9,10 years from now when people have bikes with warped, expanded, ill-fitting, abraded, rubbing, possible leaking fuel tanks that were replaced under warranty (or maybe once under warranty, once under good-will, and once - or more - at their own expense), and Ducati - corporately speaking - has "moved on."

What then?   Our bikes are unrideable, unsellable paperweights?   Or those who want to keep them and soldier on, buy hand-beaten alloy replacement tanks?  This is not an academic question.  I  have a 10-year-old Ducate 750SS that I ride regularly now, and I can actually entertain the notion that in seven years, I'll still want to be riding my 2007 S4Rs.... fuel tank permitting!

The biggest question remains in my mind ---- why isn't Ducati FIXING this problem rather than using the short-term bandaid of replacing defective tanks with identical, soon-to-be defective tanks?

Maybe we need to join with other Ducati enthusiast forums to drive a national awareness campaign wrt the NHTSA complaint process that has been so well-documented here.  It seems to me at this point that the only way Ducati is going to alter their response to this problem is if the regulatory agencies force them to.

Tim, Herndon, VA

[ducatiz]

I think the real problem comes 7,8,9,10 years from now when people have bikes with warped, expanded, ill-fitting, abraded, rubbing, possible leaking fuel tanks that were replaced under warranty (or maybe once under warranty, once under good-will, and once - or more - at their own expense), and Ducati - corporately speaking - has "moved on."

What then?   Our bikes are unrideable, unsellable paperweights?   Or those who want to keep them and soldier on, buy hand-beaten alloy replacement tanks?  This is not an academic question.  I  have a 10-year-old Ducate 750SS that I ride regularly now, and I can actually entertain the notion that in seven years, I'll still want to be riding my 2007 S4Rs.... fuel tank permitting!

The biggest question remains in my mind ---- why isn't Ducati FIXING this problem rather than using the short-term bandaid of replacing defective tanks with identical, soon-to-be defective tanks?

Maybe we need to join with other Ducati enthusiast forums to drive a national awareness campaign wrt the NHTSA complaint process that has been so well-documented here.  It seems to me at this point that the only way Ducati is going to alter their response to this problem is if the regulatory agencies force them to.

Tim, Herndon, VA

I have no reason to think they are not trying to fix the tanks properly.

All the issues you raise are real problems.  Moreover, the tanks are identical to the ones used on bikes in Europe, and the EU has approved ethanol to be used in gasoline so it will be creeping into various markets soon.  Down the road, maybe 5-7 years from now, all EU gasoline will have 5-10% ethanol, just like in the USA -- then another 1-2 years, tanks will start expanding.

Ducati is aware of the problem, and I am SURE they have had some chemists look into what caused it -- and if the problem really is ethanol, then they can see the writing on the wall if they do not fix the tanks -- EVERY single owner of an 05-current model Monster, Sport Classic and Multistrada will become a Ducati-hater, and then there will be HUGE publicity.

This isn't the same as the crack-frame problem on the 95-97 900ss or the weak stud problem, because it will eventually affect ~every single~ bike made that is used in an ethanol-fuel market.

I am sure Ducati is trying to fix it, that being said, I wish they would issue a statement on the problem.

[Nekkid Tim]

I have no reason to think they are not trying to fix the tanks properly.

All the issues you raise are real problems.  Moreover, the tanks are identical to the ones used on bikes in Europe, and the EU has approved ethanol to be used in gasoline so it will be creeping into various markets soon.  Down the road, maybe 5-7 years from now, all EU gasoline will have 5-10% ethanol, just like in the USA -- then another 1-2 years, tanks will start expanding.

Ducati is aware of the problem, and I am SURE they have had some chemists look into what caused it -- and if the problem really is ethanol, then they can see the writing on the wall if they do not fix the tanks -- EVERY single owner of an 05-current model Monster, Sport Classic and Multistrada will become a Ducati-hater, and then there will be HUGE publicity.

This isn't the same as the crack-frame problem on the 95-97 900ss or the weak stud problem, because it will eventually affect ~every single~ bike made that is used in an ethanol-fuel market.

I am sure Ducati is trying to fix it, that being said, I wish they would issue a statement on the problem.

I guess that to me (a Ducati enthusiast for 29 years and a Ducati owner for 23 years) the simple lack of such a statement or letter to owners (or even dealers) addressing the issue and stating a clear, concise, consistent corporate policy is evidence enough to convince me that they are not trying to fix the tank issue properly.  Whatever else they may be doing besides replacing the defective tanks with identical new examples of the same tanks - in some instances, for some owners - is not being conveyed or publicized in any forum of which I am aware.

My son rides a 1999 Triumph Speed Triple 955i that is equipped with the factory original plastic fuel tank from my old 1997 Triumph T509 Speed Triple; a 12-year-old plastic fuel tank that shows NONE of the issues we see with the Ducati fuel tanks in question, despite it having hundreds of tanks of ethanol-enhanced fuel through it.  Surely there is nothing too exotic or expensive preventing Ducati from simply switching to the type of plastic that Triumph has been using without problems for all these years?

I deeply appreciate your efforts on this.   I think we have the best organized group of Ducati owners out there for pursuing this, solely based on YOUR efforts to date.

I’m suggesting that perhaps we need to contact/reach out/include/incorporate/add other Ducati enthusiasts who may not be aware of this effort – beyond Monster owners, to include Sport Classic and GT owners as well.   Perhaps a website, perhaps via your Yahoo group; I don’t know.

If there’s something alse I can do to help you out - besides registering with the Yahoo Group, filing my NHTSA complaint, and petitioning for (and receiving) a replacement fuel tank, please let me know.

Tim

[ducatiz]

As far as I understand, Ducati doesn't make the tank, Ascerbis does.  I don't know who makes Triumph's tanks, but I am sure it isn't easy to rotomold another 10s of thousands of tanks for warranty replacement.

Somone at Ducati has better have a handle on this with Ascerbis.

[Nekkid Tim]

As far as I understand, Ducati doesn't make the tank, Ascerbis does.  I don't know who makes Triumph's tanks, but I am sure it isn't easy to rotomold another 10s of thousands of tanks for warranty replacement.

Somone at Ducati has better have a handle on this with Ascerbis.

When I said I thought that there was "nothing too exotic or expensive" (not "easy") about switching to a KNOWN, GOOD, supplier of fuel tanks, I certainly didn't mean to say or insinuate that it would be easy (or cheap, for that matter) to replace all the bad tanks Ducati has put on the market over the last five years.   

I meant that switching over to a new supplier, one with a proven record of producing plastic production fuel tanks that do NOT lose their shape, warp, "grow," or dimple and orange-peel in the first two, five, or even twelve years of ownership, should, imho, be neither too exotic nor too expensive for Ducati to implement.

Of course, I also thought that because Ducati could and has made trouble-free steel tanks by the tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) since the 1960's, that perhaps they could or should investigate switching to that material for their current models and even consider it for replacement of bad plastic tanks.  And I vividly recall how impossible I was told something like that would be.

I would have guessed that with dozens of other motorcycle manufacturers selling ten times as many motorcycles (and more) than Ducati, and with Ducati themselves constantly coming out with reliable, well-crafted, nicely working complexities like dohc 4-V desmodromic cylinder heads and multi-adjustable traction control, etc, that either producing or contracting for the production of fuel tanks that don't have all the problems we're seeing wouldn't be so (apparently) impossible for them to accomplish.

It really does cast a shadow over my appreciation of the company, after all these years.  Just thinkin...

I've owned a 1967 250 Scrambler, 1967 250 Mach 1, 1973 750GT, 1975 860GT, 1977 900SS, 1985 [Cagiva] Alazzurra 650, 1992 750SS, 1992 851 Superbike, 1994 916, 2003 620 Sport, and a 2003 999 in the past, and currently own a 2000 750SS,  2003 800SS,  2005 800SS, and a 2006 1000SS in addition to my 2007 S4Rs, and the last is the only one I've had fuel tank problems with, and the only one that has had two sets of throttle bodies replaced under warranty because of TPS sensors going bad.

Maybe I should just sell the S4Rs now while it has a nice, new, replacement tank on it, and start looking in earnest for a 998R and a 750F1 Montjuich/SantaMonica/Laguna Seca to complete my Ducati dreams!

Tim

[ducatiz]

Of course, I also thought that because Ducati could and has made trouble-free steel tanks by the tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) since the 1960's, that perhaps they could or should investigate switching to that material for their current models and even consider it for replacement of bad plastic tanks.  And I vividly recall how impossible I was told something like that would be.

unfortunately, ducati has had problems with their steel tanks too.. search for "hinge leak"

[Nekkid Tim]

unfortunately, ducati has had problems with their steel tanks too.. search for "hinge leak"

Yeah, I'm aware of those.   That doesn't mean that they haven't produced hundreds of thousands of trouble-free steel tanks, though.   It doesn't necessarily mean that if they switched their plastic tanks to steel, that those steel tanks would have hinge (or any other) problems... if they've learned from the experience of the past.

The problem is, they are - at least as far the warranty replacement Monster tanks and both the current production and the warranty replacement Sport Classic tanks are concerned - still repeating the errors of the past.

[Popeye the Sailor]

The problem is, they are - at least as far the warranty replacement Monster tanks and both the current production and the warranty replacement Sport Classic tanks are concerned - still repeating the errors of the past.

It's not an overnight solution. This problem showed up when? 1-2 years down the road over a type of gas they may not even have had tested?


Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.


In the meantime, you have current motorcycle owners who have tanks that are not fitting the moto, canot be latched unlatched, hitting the bars on full lock, etc-do you have a better suggestion on what to do? All they can *currently* do is replace the tank to keep the current owner moderately happy, while it gets sorted.


I can see them not willing to make a public announcement until after some sort of fix has been devised.

[ICON]

I'm starting to notice some funny business on  my S4RS now.  My S2R1000 seems to be holding up for now.

Oh Santa Claus, if you are real...this is your time to shine big guy. I guess I can always count on the Great Pumpkin. Where do i sign? 

[Nekkid Tim]

It's not an overnight solution. This problem showed up when? 1-2 years down the road over a type of gas they may not even have had tested?

I'd like to point out that at no point have I said, conjectured, insinuated, or accused Ducati of dealing with something that can be solved overnight.   Problems crop up in the automotive and motorcycle industry over periods of years.  This is, in itself, not unusual nor is it unprecedented.  There is a long historical precedent for how to handle such a situation, both from a public relations standpoint and from a standpoint of researching, planning, and implementing a practical, technical, marketplace solution.

With the response that we have to date from Ducati corporate (NOT individual dealers) do you have the sense that the company has and is doing everything they can to address the public relations damage from the problem?   Do you understand their approach to dealing with the technical side of the problem?    Has their communication been of such a nature that customers are, in general, reassured?   Do you get a sense that customers are concerned but that the company has done all in their power to allay those concerns?   Perhaps you do, and can share the reasons why.   I don't have that sense of the company's position in this situation.

Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.

First, if I were a company executive trying to both solve the situation and maintain communication with my customer base, I don't think that finding a *new* formula for material would be my primary path of action.  Perhaps a secondary, long-term, background search for such a formulation would be in order.

Secondly, since the problems with tanks have been shown to take longer than six months to present themselves, I would agree that a 6 month test would be unthinkable.  Obviously, a minumum test would now have to be considered to be five years, since that is the federally mandated emissions warranty in Ducati's largest single export market.

That's why I don't think that finding a *new* formulation is a viable first path option towards solving this problem.
 

In the meantime, you have current motorcycle owners who have tanks that are not fitting the moto, canot be latched unlatched, hitting the bars on full lock, etc-do you have a better suggestion on what to do? All they can *currently* do is replace the tank to keep the current owner moderately happy, while it gets sorted.

I would suggest that that is all that they *are* currently doing, and it is not remotely close to all that they *could* currently be doing.  And they are doing that in a hit-or-miss fashion amid much confusion and chaos at the individual owner and individual dealer level.  The posts in this thread alone (heck, the simple existence of this thread) amply demonstrate that fact.

As far as having a "better" suggestion for what the company could be doing, the idea of "better" is open to personal opinion.  I would suggest, whether "better" or not, that the company could:

1. Send a letter to each registered owner of an affected bike or potentially affected bike, acknowledging that there is a problem with the fuel tank construction of their motorcycle, and that if they have not yet had their bike inspected, they should do so immediately.   Counsel those owners whose tanks have already been replaced or are pending replacement that the company will stand behind the replacement tank even if the bike's warranty expires prior to the replacement tank exhibiting any symptoms of the problems.  Send a similar letter to all francished dealers advising that it be prominantly displayed in the dealership for those owners who are missed in the private mailing.

2.   Issue a press release that gives the public a general overall idea of what the company is doing to correct the problem, and if the problem is unlikely to exhibit itself in other applications, tell the public why they believe that to be the case.

3. Keep owners, dealers, and the public informed as to their progress in resolving the problem and their timetable for completing all corrective actions.

Now, of course, there are all sorts of potential legal and liability issues with the above suggestions, that I'm sure a lawyer could point out.  My point isn't to say "This is what Ducati SHOULD or MUST do."   My point is that I can think of things they COULD be doing that might prove significantly more reassuring to their customers than what they ARE doing.   I'm not going to debate each "suggestion" and its relative legal and liability and customer relations advantages and disadvantages.  I'm too tired of it, and it won't make one whit of difference, anyway.

I can see them not willing to make a public announcement until after some sort of fix has been devised.

I can too, and I can see that doing a great deal of damage to their customer relations in the meantime.

Let me simply close with an observation.  I bought Ducatis throughout the 80's when it appeared the company itself could go out of business on any given month.   I bought Ducatis throughout the 90's when the company changed hands several times and quality issues (regulator rectifiers frying, flaking rocker arms, etc) plagued the company.  And I continued to buy Ducatis through the past decade, and I have NEVER questioned my enthusiasm or dedication to the marque.   My 2007 S4Rs in stock trim was the most fun stock motorcycle I have ever owned.  In its currently modified form, it is, quite simply, the most fun motorcycle I have ever ridden in my life, let alone personally owned.  Seriously.  It is b.a.d.a.s.s., toxic, fun.   I own FOUR other Ducatis right now.   

Yet, if I were to be looking for a replacement for the bike today (I am not), I would be more likely to buy an MV Agusta Brutale 1078R than the Streetfighter.   If I wanted an even lighter, more flickable bike than the S4Rs (I don't), I would look at the Triumph Street Triple R before I would consider a Ducati Monster 696.   There is NOTHING about the S4Rs that would cause that state of affairs, INCLUDING the problems with the fuel tank.  It is Ducati's response to date with regard to the fuel tank issue that makes me feel that way.

Perhaps I am the only one who is affected in this way.

<Shrug.>   Doesn't matter.   

[somegirl]

Bugged my dealer again, still no definitive word from Ducati either way.

He thinks the chances are slim, as they have been having trouble getting things covered that are within warranty.

[patorojo]

Have been watching this thread and my 2007 S2R1K Red for a while and finally started noticing the signs, most visible one of the frame bumbers starting to push outward.  Took it to my dealer today and he said it most definitely has the expansion problem and has sent the warranty request in.  They have handled 5 or 6 of these successfully so far.  In chatting about the problem, he noted that based on conversations he has had with Ducati, it sounded like Acerbis (who makes the tanks for Ducati) and Ducati are in a pissing match as to who is responsible.  He expects Ducati to issue a recall after somebody steps up.

[aaronb]

Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.

the properties of most plastics are known, quite well.  no long term testing would be required.

my thought would be that a plastic that remains stable in the presence of gasoline, and alcohol might cost a little more than whatever is currently being used. 

[Popeye the Sailor]

the properties of most plastics are known, quite well.  no long term testing would be required.

How do you think we got to where we are?

[aaronb]

How do you think we got to where we are?

try to save a few bucks cost in the end