Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates

[ducpainter]

i didn't see on the site where it said if the monster tank had the flange style fuel pump, or the older. i assumed not.

which doesn't mean i am right....

You're talking the aluminum? I was talking OEM.

I don't think the S*R  pump will work unless it's installed in the factory flange.

None of us have seen how they mount the pump in the a/m aluminum tanks...

so we're both probably wrong.

[JimmyTheDriver]

Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/

[Raux]

Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/

[duccarlos]

Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/

I saw that one posted on FB yesterday.

[hillbillypolack]

Oh boy.   

I am on the doorstep of getting my tank replaced, and saw this last week.  It certainly does place the fault at the feet of Ducati and Acerbis.  If it's proven that Ducati willingly manufactured tanks without taking into account the fuel composition, then they are liable for much more than replacements.  In fact, I can recall seeing E10 in fuel stations in 2000 or 2001.  There was also considerable talk of ethanol (e85) and biofuels (not as a common fuel however) when gasoline was up near $3/gal.

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.

Sorry, Ducati.  If I am offered the 'necessary' Termignonis to get the bike to run right, need to re-gear for proper running, and contend with distorting fuel tanks, it may be my last Ducati.  At least new. . .

[Popeye the Sailor]

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.

It's not cheaper for them to provide multiple tanks per bike instead of building one that didn't do this.

[xcaptainxbloodx]

today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.

that means that when we have a problem and take it to our dealer, and our dealer contacts ducati, ducati contacts that third party to make the tank.

im betting theres some maaaaajor behind the scenes crap flinging going on between ducati and whoever makes the tanks over this issue. ducati probably isnt paying for replacement tanks/labor and whoever is making the tanks is probably falling over themselves trying to figure out how to make proper tanks.

dont know for sure. but makes sense right?

[ducatiz]

Oh boy.   

I am on the doorstep of getting my tank replaced, and saw this last week.  It certainly does place the fault at the feet of Ducati and Acerbis.  If it's proven that Ducati willingly manufactured tanks without taking into account the fuel composition, then they are liable for much more than replacements.  In fact, I can recall seeing E10 in fuel stations in 2000 or 2001.  There was also considerable talk of ethanol (e85) and biofuels (not as a common fuel however) when gasoline was up near $3/gal.

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.

I am going to have to disagree with you on that last point.  As far as I understand, it was Acerbis' responsibility to test the tanks with fuel in Ducati's markets.  That doesn't change who you have to go to for a new tank or satisfaction though, but I would not characterize their actions as "greed driven" especially in light of the fact that they are replacing gas tanks for out-of-warranty bikes and bikes owned by subsequent purchasers (non-original owners).

And that is me, the attorney with my finger on the trigger for a (second) lawsuit against Ducati.

If you look at their actions since this whole thing started, I see a company either fighting with itself or running around with cranio-rectal inversion, but trying to do something positive.

I agree there is some dumb-assery involved given the prevalence of ethanol in gasoline in the USA, and Ducati has the legal responsibility to ensure their tanks are compatible.  But I don't see it as greed. 

Hopefully this/these lawsuit(s) will give them the kick in the ass they need to make public their plans for long term.  They can't replace these tanks forever.

[ducatiz]

today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.

Don't mean to be rude, but did you just crawl out from under your rock?   

The tanks have ACERBIS stamped on them underneath. 

[ducatiz]

It's not cheaper for them to provide multiple tanks per bike instead of building one that didn't do this.

I think that's not a given.

In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

1.  Find a coating that will seal properly and not affect homologation

OR

2.  Pay everyone some amount of money to get their newly-replaced tanks coated by the dealer with anything they want -- individual owners are not bound by homologation requirements.

OR

3.  Come up with a new formulation of nylon or some other plastic that has the same external properties and does not affect homologation

#1 and #2 are cost effective, #3 is probably cost-prohibitive.

My gut feeling is that the most expensive part of the tank manufacture is the painting.  Spinning up nylon in a rotomold isn't particularly pricey per-tank.  They already have the molds and at this point, it is just a material (nylon) cost. 

The problem for them is that nylon pa6 is EXCELLENT for molding these shapes and painting.  Other forms of plastic such as HDPE that are commonly used for tanks are not easily painted.   HDPE is the standard for car gas tanks now and it simply cannot be painted to the level of finish.  PEX is also used, but it is far more expensive and harder to paint (Cycleworks makes a PEX hi-cap tank and you can read his comments about the paint issues. great material but harder to work with and more expensive than Nylon).

[mitt]

today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.

I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt

[ducatiz]

I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt

yeah, it's been that way since about '92-93.  I forget what year.  I know the bevel and pantah frames were weld inhouse.  but even the pantah cases were cast by Empressa (sic?).  Heads come in cast but unfinished, they cut the valves and chambers at the factory.  fairly typical.

[Popeye the Sailor]

I think that's not a given.

In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

Not what I was saying. I was saying Ducati making a perfect tank right off the bat vs the current multiple tanks and lawsuit(s) would have been cheaper. AKA people never having the problem to begin with would have been cheaper.

Hillbilly was saying this current situation was motivated by greed. I vote it's not.

[xcaptainxbloodx]

I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt

I know this, but you all miss my point.

 with everyone getting upset at ducati and the pending lawsuits. the buck doesn't stop at ducati.  if our brakes were make the beast with two backsed up would we be upset at ducati or brembo? who would be getting sued then? wouldnt  our energies be better spent fighting against acerbis for a permanent fix while talking to ducati to get our temporary fix?

[ducatiz]

I know this, but you all miss my point.

 with everyone getting upset at ducati and the pending lawsuits. the buck doesn't stop at ducati.  if our brakes were make the beast with two backsed up would we be upset at ducati or brembo? who would be getting sued then? wouldnt  our energies be better spent fighting against acerbis for a permanent fix while talking to ducati to get our temporary fix?

The buck does indeed stop with Ducati.

They are the only company you have a contractual or otherwise relationship with as a buyer.  You bought the bike from Ducati and they warranted it. 

No one has any relationship with Acerbis or Brembo regardless that they made the tank and brakes.  They are part and parcel of the bike.