North Bay Ride - Sun, June 28th (with lunch stop at Marshall)

[ghostrider]

I know everyone is being all touchy-feely about this incident, but this really sucks, and this is make the beast with two backsing serious.  What the make the beast with two backs happened here?  Is Brian FKA motobee?  If so, then I know Brian.  He's a good guy and an excellent rider.  It pisses me off that he got ass-packed by someone in his group doing something stupid.  Was there really a pre-ride safety talk?  Who is this CAPS LOCK NEWBIE MOTHERmake the beast with two backsER, and why was he following Brian so closely?!?  Fess up, ENZO696DUCMON.  You might be a nice guy, but being coy about what you did marks you as a major douche bag mothermake the beast with two backser in my book.  Do you really understand how your shitheaded behavior affects not only the health and safety of those around you, but how it causes serious problems for everyone who rides???  Do you know how many people have been seriously messed up because of this?  Ever wonder why this board is populated mostly by relatively new riders?  Ever wonder where the good, experienced riders went?  For a long while I wondered, but now I know.  Good riders just want to ride.  They're done putting up with this shit.  I drove past yet another crash near La Honda yesterday.  Same old story.  Newbie joins spirited ride wearing jeans, ends up rolling in the gutter hollering in pain after chasing better riders.  This is make the beast with two backsing retarded, and it's time we addressed it directly and openly.

Seriously, we go through this shit every make the beast with two backsing summer, and the price we pay is too big to pussy foot about it afterward.  To hell with the TOS, when it comes to safety it all has to come out.  Be honest with yourself about your abilities, don't try and keep up, be humble, be aware of your learning curve, listen to and learn from more experienced riders (and be very careful about who you ID as an experienced rider), but most of all, TAKE IT SLOW.  Learning to ride a bike takes about 15 minutes, but learning to ride well takes years and years and years.  I've been riding about six years.  Do you think for an instant I think of myself as a great, experienced rider?  Hell no.  If you just bought your first bike and you're new to this board and don't know anybody, what that make the beast with two backs are you doing on a spirited ride???  Before going out and ruining someone's day again, or far worse, check yourself and use your head.  It's too late for Brian, but do the rest of us a favor and get your shit together.

Enzo
I have to say I completle agree with you on this point, I rarely ever go on group rides but when I do I am always tail end charlie. I am perfectle ok with this because I know I am still learning (I have been riding for 6 years). The one thing I like about thsi group is there is no pressure to keep up and the group will always stop and wait for me.
I have learned alot about how to pace myself from this group and the ownly advice I can give to other rides is to listen to the people around you and ride at your own pace. If your in a group ride and the pace is too fast let the group go, but you should also tell them you are slow before you even start the ride. If the group does not like this then maybe this is a group you should not ride with.

Sorry for the rant everybody but I'm tired of egos.

[sidm]

I know everyone is being all touchy-feely about this incident, but this really sucks, and this is make the beast with two backsing serious.  What the make the beast with two backs happened here?  Is Brian FKA motobee?  If so, then I know Brian.  He's a good guy and an excellent rider.  It pisses me off that he got ass-packed by someone in his group doing something stupid.  Was there really a pre-ride safety talk?  Who is this CAPS LOCK NEWBIE MOTHERmake the beast with two backsER, and why was he following Brian so closely?!?  Fess up, ENZO696DUCMON.  You might be a nice guy, but being coy about what you did marks you as a major douche bag mothermake the beast with two backser in my book.  Do you really understand how your shitheaded behavior affects not only the health and safety of those around you, but how it causes serious problems for everyone who rides???  Do you know how many people have been seriously messed up because of this?  Ever wonder why this board is populated mostly by relatively new riders?  Ever wonder where the good, experienced riders went?  For a long while I wondered, but now I know.  Good riders just want to ride.  They're done putting up with this shit.  I drove past yet another crash near La Honda yesterday.  Same old story.  Newbie joins spirited ride wearing jeans, ends up rolling in the gutter hollering in pain after chasing better riders.  This is make the beast with two backsing retarded, and it's time we addressed it directly and openly.

Seriously, we go through this shit every make the beast with two backsing summer, and the price we pay is too big to pussy foot about it afterward.  To hell with the TOS, when it comes to safety it all has to come out.  Be honest with yourself about your abilities, don't try and keep up, be humble, be aware of your learning curve, listen to and learn from more experienced riders (and be very careful about who you ID as an experienced rider), but most of all, TAKE IT SLOW.  Learning to ride a bike takes about 15 minutes, but learning to ride well takes years and years and years.  I've been riding about six years.  Do you think for an instant I think of myself as a great, experienced rider?  Hell no.  If you just bought your first bike and you're new to this board and don't know anybody, what that make the beast with two backs are you doing on a spirited ride???  Before going out and ruining someone's day again, or far worse, check yourself and use your head.  It's too late for Brian, but do the rest of us a favor and get your shit together.

do you know what happened to call out Enzo and calling him a 'caps lock newbie mothermake the beast with two backser'!? do you know if he ass-packed brian? does it help anyone by calling him out vs having the involved parties deal with it amongst themselves?

[CharliesAngel]

I know everyone is being all touchy-feely about this incident, but this really sucks, and this is make the beast with two backsing serious.  What the make the beast with two backs happened here?  Is Brian FKA motobee?  If so, then I know Brian.  He's a good guy and an excellent rider.  It pisses me off that he got ass-packed by someone in his group doing something stupid.  Was there really a pre-ride safety talk?  Who is this CAPS LOCK NEWBIE MOTHERmake the beast with two backsER, and why was he following Brian so closely?!?  Fess up, ENZO696DUCMON.  You might be a nice guy, but being coy about what you did marks you as a major douche bag mothermake the beast with two backser in my book.  Do you really understand how your shitheaded behavior affects not only the health and safety of those around you, but how it causes serious problems for everyone who rides???  Do you know how many people have been seriously messed up because of this?  Ever wonder why this board is populated mostly by relatively new riders?  Ever wonder where the good, experienced riders went?  For a long while I wondered, but now I know.  Good riders just want to ride.  They're done putting up with this shit.  I drove past yet another crash near La Honda yesterday.  Same old story.  Newbie joins spirited ride wearing jeans, ends up rolling in the gutter hollering in pain after chasing better riders.  This is make the beast with two backsing retarded, and it's time we addressed it directly and openly.

Seriously, we go through this shit every make the beast with two backsing summer, and the price we pay is too big to pussy foot about it afterward.  To hell with the TOS, when it comes to safety it all has to come out.  Be honest with yourself about your abilities, don't try and keep up, be humble, be aware of your learning curve, listen to and learn from more experienced riders (and be very careful about who you ID as an experienced rider), but most of all, TAKE IT SLOW.  Learning to ride a bike takes about 15 minutes, but learning to ride well takes years and years and years.  I've been riding about six years.  Do you think for an instant I think of myself as a great, experienced rider?  Hell no.  If you just bought your first bike and you're new to this board and don't know anybody, what that make the beast with two backs are you doing on a spirited ride???  Before going out and ruining someone's day again, or far worse, check yourself and use your head.  It's too late for Brian, but do the rest of us a favor and get your shit together.

Dear Enzo et. al,
The accident that happened during this ride and the pain and suffering that the injured have had to endure is top-of-mind for many who have read this thread.  I believe it is called empathy and compassion.

With all due respect Evan - were you at this ride and did you see what happened?  That's all I'm going to say about that.

I organized this ride and realized that it was going to be a larger group ride.  Therefore, I had a few volunteers agree to lead and sweep - they did an awesome job!  Greyduc who I asked to lead (since I know I am not a skilled enough "Lead" yet), gave a 5 minute pre-ride safety talk at Tambucks and both Brian and Enzo696ducman attended the talk.  I have gone over and over in my head whether or not there could have been more that I could have said/done.  I know that I can speak on behalf of Greyduc as he shares my sentiment. 

I joined the DMF for the camaraderie and love of riding.  I have also attended DMF group rides and have learned a great deal from them.  In fact, ironically, I nearly crashed on my first DMF ride organized by Desmoquattro but I was extremely lucky and got off with just a bent clutch and 1/2 peeled off boot - it was because I was a noobie and I was trying to keep up.... that was my big lesson learned.  Now I understand when the guys explained to me that they'd rather wait 5 minutes at the Stop sign rather than waiting the whole day for the ambulance and the tow truck guy...

Thing is with riding, you can only continue the learning process the more you ride.  I organized this ride because I wanted to give back to the DMF and do a group ride so that others could continue to learn, just as I am continuously learning - and the only way to do it is to ride with others.  However, this whole thing and some of the comments I have heard people say about this ride have really left a bad taste in my mouth. 

I don't believe that fowl language and blaming will help.  My continued hope that Brian will pull through this trying time - having just shared this process with a good friend, I fully empathize and send my warmest regards.  What I will do is organize a group outing to go visit Brian so look out for that thread. 

- stephenie (charlie)

 

[Princess]

I would agree with Charlie on this - as far as I can tell (this is speculation and is dangerous to draw conclusions from anything but statements from witnesses who actually watched the whole accident unfold)... apparently there was a side road that everyone missed that was a 90 degree R-hand turn right after a crest in a hill about 150 -200 yds or so. Cresting over the hill at a fairly fast pace, with another vehicle or person in front at the intersection for anyone would be the makings of any accident.

The best advice to everyone... know the route - obviously a lot of people missed the cut off since 1/2 the group blew right past it. Learn from what happened so it won't happen again. We all are at fault for treating public roads as a race track if we end up breaking the law by traveling faster than the posted speed limit.  We all know the risks inherent in riding motorcycles and that is something we agree to every time we turn the key to start our rides and head out to enjoy the California back roads. You can minimize this risk by riding solely on race tracks during track days. It's a CHOICE we have. I'm grateful we have such an opportunity to ride where we want in America.

Dear Enzo et. al,
The accident that happened during this ride and the pain and suffering that the injured have had to endure is top-of-mind for many who have read this thread.  I believe it is called empathy and compassion.

With all due respect Evan - were you at this ride and did you see what happened?  That's all I'm going to say about that.

[Jammen]

I know everyone is being all touchy-feely about this incident, but this really sucks, and this is make the beast with two backsing serious.  What the make the beast with two backs happened here?....

   Enzo, I understand the anger, I've been a bit upset by this whole thing for the last couple days... but what it comes down to is no one actually saw what happened. The fault could totally be on one person, the other, or possibly both.  That whole "innocent until proven guilty" does come into play here.  Unless someone who saw the accident was to come forward and say without a doubt that "This is what happened" it's not really anyone's place who was on the ride (or who read about it after the fact) to start letting loose potentially untrue and damaging statements on the net. 

  Just take to heart what you already know; don't do big group rides with lots of unknowns if you want to limit your personal exposure to things like this.  There are more then enough ways for us to go down as is, large group rides just seem to up that risk exponentially at times.

 

[enzo]

Be as diplomatic and fair as you want, but Brian is still in the hospital, and he shouldn't be, no matter the excuse.  Are we really more concerned about being nice to ENZO696DUCMON than the well being of everyone he and riders like him encounter?!?  If so, then we have bigger problems than hurt ego's.

Stephanie, Princess, sidm, et al, the MOB was a great place, but this isn't a make the beast with two backsing tea party.  Yeah, it's neat to make friends, but it really sucks to send them to the hospital, too.  Is that not painfully obvious?  If you can walk away after riders in your group were air lifted with this attitude, then you know why I won't touch any of your rides with ten foot pole.

So let's hear it from the horse's mouth for those of you who need first hand eye witness accounts to learn something from an incident some of us have seen over and over and over again.  Cut the bullshit, lay it out, and I'll be happy to eat crow pie if there is some extraordinary reason why one rider hit another on a group ride.  It better be make the beast with two backsing spectacular, too, because this should never, ever happen, no matter what.

[GrendelsTwin]

With no story being told, we are left to our imaginations for answers.  Knowing the road there, the most likely (almost inescapable) conclusion is the scenario Enzo detailed.  

 

[cstlwtr]

Dear Enzo et. al,
The accident that happened during this ride and the pain and suffering that the injured have had to endure is top-of-mind for many who have read this thread.  I believe it is called empathy and compassion.

With all due respect Evan - were you at this ride and did you see what happened?  That's all I'm going to say about that.

I organized this ride and realized that it was going to be a larger group ride.  Therefore, I had a few volunteers agree to lead and sweep - they did an awesome job!  Greyduc who I asked to lead (since I know I am not a skilled enough "Lead" yet), gave a 5 minute pre-ride safety talk at Tambucks and both Brian and Enzo696ducman attended the talk.  I have gone over and over in my head whether or not there could have been more that I could have said/done.  I know that I can speak on behalf of Greyduc as he shares my sentiment. 

I joined the DMF for the camaraderie and love of riding.  I have also attended DMF group rides and have learned a great deal from them.  In fact, ironically, I nearly crashed on my first DMF ride organized by Desmoquattro but I was extremely lucky and got off with just a bent clutch and 1/2 peeled off boot - it was because I was a noobie and I was trying to keep up.... that was my big lesson learned.  Now I understand when the guys explained to me that they'd rather wait 5 minutes at the Stop sign rather than waiting the whole day for the ambulance and the tow truck guy...

Thing is with riding, you can only continue the learning process the more you ride.  I organized this ride because I wanted to give back to the DMF and do a group ride so that others could continue to learn, just as I am continuously learning - and the only way to do it is to ride with others.  However, this whole thing and some of the comments I have heard people say about this ride have really left a bad taste in my mouth. 

I don't believe that fowl language and blaming will help.  My continued hope that Brian will pull through this trying time - having just shared this process with a good friend, I fully empathize and send my warmest regards.  What I will do is organize a group outing to go visit Brian so look out for that thread. 

- stephenie (charlie)

Stephenie - That would be great! I'm sure Brian would like that.  I'll look forward to seeing the thread about visiting him.

Wayne

[CharliesAngel]

If you can walk away after riders in your group were air lifted with this attitude, then you know why I won't touch any of your rides with ten foot pole.

It is nice to see that you are choosing to stay away rather than join in and help create a community.

[enzo]

It is nice to see that you are choosing to stay away rather than join in and help create a community.

This isn't about you, Stephanie.  From what I can tell, you appeared to set up a ride with all the best intentions and common safety standards in place.  The problem is that you got some newbies riding over their heads, and nobody reminded them that it was not a newbie friendly ride.  Happens all the time, but it's senseless that it happens at all. 

When I was a newbie, there were some serious pre-ride talks, and sometimes I thought the organizers were being dicks, but I followed the rules, remembered them, and managed to avoid putting anyone on Life Flight.  Most of those organizers aren't around anymore, so there isn't anyone standing up to be the bad guy, offering the structure that these rides really need.  We've gotten soft, and we aren't taking these rides seriously enough.  How many broken backs and crushed pelvises do we need around here before we have a serious conversation? 

You may not think that's building community, Stephanie, but my hope is this brings the right kind of attention to what we're doing here.  If anyone is willing to sack up and really address this, let's do it.  The forum is social, and we can make friends by being pleasant all we want, but our rides are for real, and I don't think we can compromise safety in the name of inclusiveness and tact anymore.

[Jammen]

With no story being told, we are left to our imaginations for answers.  Knowing the road there, the most likely (almost inescapable) conclusion is the scenario Enzo detailed. 

  This is part of the issue, no one actually has a story as none of us saw it.  Even the people on the ride would just be using our imaginations and coming to conclusion that may be best not shared on a public forum. It's not being soft or being concerned about anyone's ego or well being.  For me it's waiting for an official accident report to either confirm or deny what I suspect.

The problem is that you got some newbies riding over their heads, and nobody reminded them that it was not a newbie friendly ride.  Happens all the time, but it's senseless that it happens at all.

   

Just to point out, that there was a warning on the ride invite that this would be a spirited, non-beginner friendly ride, and as far as I know, everyone who attended had been riding for at least a year plus.

When I was a newbie, there were some serious pre-ride talks, and sometimes I thought the organizers were being dicks, but I followed the rules, remembered them, and managed to avoid putting anyone on Life Flight. 

 

I feel that the safety speech before the ride was solid, especially considering the "spirited ride disclaimer", touch on all the important aspects that may have contributed to the accident.

If you can walk away after riders in your group were air lifted with this attitude, then you know why I won't touch any of your rides with ten foot pole.

Now honestly, this is bit of a low blow.  Do you have any idea how concerned we all were/still are?

My hope is this brings the right kind of attention to what we're doing here.  If anyone is willing to sack up and really address this, let's do it.  The forum is social, and we can make friends by being pleasant all we want, but our rides are for real, and I don't think we can compromise safety in the name of inclusiveness and tact anymore.

I totally agree we need to step up and make sure we weed out every potentially dangerous newbie who wanders our way, every person that really needs to hear that full 10 minute barage of a safety speech, every person who has the potential to take out someone we consider a friend...

Oh wait, everytime we go out by ourselves or with our best friends there's the chance of an accident.
Oh wait, I and everyone else here was that newbie, who had the potential to cause a crash and apparently shouldn't be part of the group
Oh wait, everyone of the "old respected group" (no offense, I love you all ) has had some kind of crash even if it was just after giving a safety speech.

It's really not our place to start deciding on sight who's allowed to join "The Mob" and who isn't.... Do we really want to make that elitist ducati attitude sterotype a true thing?

Just don't show up for the bigger group rides, I know that this is the decision I've come to after this last ride.  Despite my feelings that this last ride was a well run event.

Enzo, I love you man, and I am honestly very upset by the crash as well (it's rough seeing someone have to go a through a similar injury to what I had because someone else "may" have made a mistake) but now is not the time to start tearing into people and looking for blame.  Show Brian your support, the last thing I can see him wanting right now is a group of us talking about nothing but going for blood. 

Accidents do happen, and are unfortunately going to continue in the future. Yes, we should be striving to be safer. We should have a pre-scripted safety speech that's read before every ride. We shouldn't hesitate to send someone home because they may be too inexperienced.  There should be gear requirements, bike maintenance requirements, bike brand requirements (if you want to go that far), all of which will get you sent home.  But... it's never 100% and we really should leave the blame game to the PD and the lawyers if needed.

[caferacer]

Evan - Stephenie was kind, but you are a complete prick. Lorenzo had the humility and respect for the people involved, the folks that cared for him and Brian, and for the riders here to post an apology and his thanks. He does not deserve to suffer a reaming from some anonymous twat who was not even present, and be made to think he should fellate your flaccid experience in public. Don't you dare think this is an opportunity to get your 72 months of riding validated you maggot.  You are not one bit a veteran, and you certainly are not a role model.  You're a predictable, boring asshole with a keyboard and a motorcycle.

You have no reason to assume Lorenzo is an inexperienced rider.  The guy has had bikes for years.  Brian's race bike had no turn signals and a tiny, malfunctioning taillamp hidden in the bodywork.  It was a great bike and I forgive him for wanting to get it out on the road, but it was a major lapse in judgment.  I like both these guys, and have no reason to blame either.  

I choose not to ride around anyone who I don't think understands and is monitoring their limits, and why don't you do the same.  You don't like them, keep your distance.  No one wants to hear follow-on, masturbatory sermons.  It's sanctimonious almost-rans like you who I am most afraid of and disgusted by. You're just good enough to make me think you're not a fool.  I am not surprised you don't know where all the "real riders" quietly went -- they want nothing to do with you.

[Popeye the Sailor]

Ib4tl! 

[bigiain]

<mod hat on>

Enzo and Caferacer? _Please_ take a few deep breaths...

I understand this is a _seriously_ deep felt and emotional discussion, and rightly so, but if it has to take place full of personal abuse, it'll have to stop.

I'm gonna overlook those existing posts (and leave them in place for now), but I'd appreciate it if you'd both at least apologise for the language, even if you're going to remain strongly in disagreement over the details and consequences.

Stop the personal abuse, but please continue the argument _respectfully_. It _is_ important to discuss what the expectations and responsibilities should be when you're organising or participating in group rides - but while speculations and opinions are useful, personal attacks are not (and are not permitted on the forum either.)

</mod hat>

Carry on.

big (and commiserations and best wishes to those involved...)

[Michael Moore]

I'll offer my opinion for what it's worth. I participated in the first half of the ride and rode with greyduc and Brian in the first group out. I heard the safety talk, and I think it was fine. Greyduc led our group at what I would consider a reasonable pace for experienced riders.

The unknown for me is the experience level of the Lorenzo. I've known Brian for a few years, not well, but we've worked the Ducati hospitality tent at GP and other races, and been on a couple of rides together, and I was following him in the morning section. He's a good and competent rider and I wasn't aware of any problems with his brake light. I gave him a good 2 second gap most of the time, and I never saw him do anything unpredictable or sketchy.  I don't know Lorenzo and have not ridden with him so cannot pass judgement on his skill.

I do know the road well, and the right turn happens shortly after a blind rise. For this reason, when I'm leading, I turn on my blinkers well before the hill, and slow gradually to let people know there's a turn coming. Otherwise it's easy to miss. 

On the face of it, it would appear Lorenzo either failed to brake properly and/or target fixated on Brian and hit him. That's a guess, but it seems to be the probably scenario. Most likely the pace was too fast and people were unfamiliar with the route.  Some people really like to hit big speeds on those roads, but I have seen too many tractors pulling out, cows in the road, and other, similar things to speed through that area. Plus it is the front yard of the people who live along those roads and is, I feel, disrespectful as well as dangerous.  There are plenty of empty sections that are parkland to get the adrenaline going; populated areas just aren't the best choices.

So what could we learn going forward? Here are some things that come to mind:

1) Make sure you know the skill levels of your riders. If you don't know, ask.

2) Break out groups by skill level

3) If someone is struggling in a group, the sweep should politely but firmly suggest they move to a different group. I've done this, and while it doesn't win you any popularity contests, the rider will hopefully understand at some future point.

4) Make sure people know the route. If you learn that riders are from out of the area, slow it down further. The ride leaders and sweeps especially should be familiar with the route, and not just from an "I have a GPS" perspective. On that Marin loop there are a number of corners that are weird, have holes, typically are covered in gravel, etc. that you want to slow down for.  You have to, as a ride leader, overcompensate for these things by slowing down more than you normally would, and telegraph their presence as best you can.

5) Make sure everyone in the group understands you'll be waiting for them so they aren't worried about getting left behind or getting lost.

6) And finally, as a participant, as we always say, ride within your limits, give the guy in front a two second lead, and if you want to really ride fast, go for a ride on  your own. Group rides are about fun, learning from better riders, and hanging out with people you like. They're not about proving you're Rossi.