North Bay Ride - Sun, June 28th (with lunch stop at Marshall)

[enzo]

You're right Jammen, crashes can and do happen to anybody.  We've all seen MB's crash ticker, but hitting another rider is inexcusable, and even worse is trying to justify it afterward.  I haven't been going on the bigger rides for this very reason, and I'd like to see fewer of these incidents before joining one again.  That's not going to happen if we fail to address this directly.

Maybe we'll hear from those involved and get some crazy explanation that makes it all okay, but so far confusion about the route and something about tail lights doesn't come close to explaining why one rider was close enough to hit another rider.  If things went the way they were supposed to, Brian should have been able to do cartwheels while riding Wonderwoman's invisible motorcycle without anyone touching him.



Big, I appreciate your input.  I also understand your point of view and your role as a moderator.  Do what you have to.  I'm not offended by caferacer, and I need no apology from him/her if that is what you were suggesting.  His rant is justified as far as I'm concerned, even if the content of his post is uninformed.

In return, I'll apologize to ENZO696DUCMON if he is willing to tell us what happened and allow us to learn from this tragedy.  If he is really the stand up guy his friends claim he is, we shouldn't have a problem.  Like I said, I'll gladly eat crow pie for this if I'm wrong, and nothing would make me happier if safer rides come out of all this. 

[jimboecv]

<mod hat>

Don't fan the flames, Jim.

</mod hat>

[tigre]

First off -- best wishes to speedy recoveries for the riders.

A few thoughts on this thread:
Everyone is upset this happened and is hoping for the best for these riders during a difficult time.  We're all on the same page here.

It seems there is a disconnect is "what do we want to take away from what has happened?"  Everyone is also on the same page that we'd like to avoid having another accident on a group ride in the future.  I hope everyone can pause and reflect on what can be done to help reduce the risk of crashes in future group rides.  There is inherent risk in what we do, but there are so many things within our control that can be done to reduce (not eliminate) the risks.  This is not a finger-pointing exercise, but it does require us to revisit what has worked and what has not worked in the past.  There have been a lot of suggestions in this thread and others:

-minimum following distances
-reviewing ride routes so folks know where turns are (organizer always brings print-outs?)
-enforcing slower pace for new riders to the group or new riders to the route
-early signalling for turns
others..

Let's take the necessary precautions, and add some additional precautions for good measure, and try to enjoy the wonderful roads in this area with each other's company.   [moto]

Tigre

[Drunken Monkey]

Does anyone have the full hospital address, room number etc for Brian?
(still in Saint Mary's Medical Center in San Francisco, room #827?)

Or Brian, if you're reading this...

We (the mods) would like to try and get a care package out to you.

[cstlwtr]

Brian is scheduled for surgery today and I don't know if he'll have the same room afterwards.  To date he has no internet access but said that he will post when he does.  Brian's contact information is as follows:

Brian Brown
c/o St. Mary's Medical Center
450 Stanyan St
San Francisco, CA 94117
(415) 668-1000

[maillotpois]

Wow.  I was sorry to have to leave the ride at Marshall, but I am not sorry to have missed the crash.  I wish both injured riders all the best and hope they (and their bikes) recover and are back on the road soon.

Sarah

[jimboecv]

<mod hat>

Don't fan the flames, Jim.

</mod hat>

PM'ed

[Magneto]

Since we're asking "what can we learn from this", first we have to acknowledge what typically happens on these rides. I was on this ride - (on the red 1098S). I showed up to Tambucks just in time to infiltrate the second group. I wasn't there for the pre-ride brief. (Potential issue #1 - late rider still participates).

After a brief stop at the Pt Reyes Gas Station, I abandoned the second group and joined the first group. I thought the second group was a tad slow --- and I'm a noob, been riding about a year/ 3rd bike / 12000 miles in total. (Potential Issue #2 - Overconfident Noob thinks he's too fast for anything but the first group).  (Potential Issue #3 - Same Noob is riding the fastest production bike ever made).

On past rides (mostly on BARF), other riders have solicited advice from me as though I must be a veteran. (Potential issue #4 - people assume a rider is experienced based on the bike he/she is riding).

I followed several riders too closely. At least, too close to brake if something unexpected happened. (Potential issue #5 - tailgating)

In both groups I saw several riders, including myself, intentionally bust double-yellows. I then watched riders behind me do the same thing. (Potential Issue #6 - busting double-yellows).

For some reason, we all lose our brains in group rides. Its just human nature. Mob mentality. You find yourself crossing double-yellows, running yellow lights, increasing speed. In short, you do things on group rides that you normally don't do by yourself. Perhaps its showing off, or not wanting to be a wuss, or trying to not get left behind, or not being the "slow guy in front ruining the ride". Whatever it is, we have to recognize it. (Potential Issue #7 - Mob Mentality: None of us are as dumb as all of us)

Among other things, I'm a father of one (with another one on the way) and a pilot - I think of myself as "special" and somehow more awesome than most, yet I can quickly list at least 7 offenses that I participated in, and I was only on the ride thru lunch.

I should just prowl and be selective about my postings so that people think I'm experienced and all-around awesome. And I'm sure somebody is thinking "I won't ride with that guy anymore" or  same something ridiculous like "your stupidity is frightening".  Whatever. I figured I'd open the table to an honest - non-accusatory and truly analytical discussion about how to tweak group rides to tone down some of these offenses. To the one tool who absolutely has to post and blast me for my two-wheeled stupidity and tell us all how smart he is (and probably had a bad highschool experience): You are awesome! You are the Man! Feel better?

To everyone else: Please post and direct your ideas to the group, not me, since I'm really not interested in actual advice (Potential Issue #8).
 


- Magneto

[Drunken Monkey]

^^^^ Good "confessional"

From what I've seen on group rides, the biggest issues are:

Following too closely. Unless the speeds are relatively low I try and maintain the 2 second rule. That sort of following distance also helps with the "focus on the road, not the rider in front of you" problem.

Triple Digit speeds. Maybe I'm in the minority, but on the boring straight sections of road I see no reason to blast into the 90s and 100s. Other folks may disagree, and like doing this, but I'm not one of them. But, I'd rather get a speeding ticket for 15 over the limit in some corner than 40 over in a straight. This can be a problem if you're in the "fast" group, since it'll further spread the group out. I've solved this by making sure I ride sweep. But In general I like the idea of setting a upper speed limit for the group.

Group size. Passing over the double yellow is not a big deal when the group size is small. With 5 riders it doesn't take long to get past a slow car. With 10 it's a recipe for really spreading out a group. Plus large groups lead to spread out groups, route problems, lost riders.

In general these are reasons I've avoided group rides that don't have folks at the same level as me and aren't any bigger than 6 or so.

And completely off topic, Magneto: How do you manage to swing flying and a 1098s? I've got two kids and I haven't flown or upgraded my bike in about 5 years 

[slower than...]

Wow, I thought I was at BARF! 

Seems to me the guy apologized already, but perhaps in an effort to sound upbeat, he didn't sound remorseful enough.  But I do not know what the flaming will accomplish now.

If he did in fact take out another rider, was that inexcusable?  Sure.  But then, does that make crashes that don't involve anyone but the rider excusable?  I mean why is there a crash ticker other than to acknowledge that people crash, experienced and inexperienced riders alike?  I personally disdain the BS from those self-promoting riders that always claim they ride within their limits and chastise those that don't.  Again, experienced riders here have crashes aplenty, proving only that they too found out their limits the hard way.  And in reality, the fact that someone hasn't crashed doesn't automatically mean they are riding within their limits, or even safely for that matter.

I personally will NEVER do another group ride.  I am very comfortable cruising around like the old fart that I am, and at a speed true to my name, riding slower than...  And I also know from experience I ride safer when I am not trying to keep up with a group.  And let me say out loud that no matter how much you emphasize it is a newbie ride, and to go at your own pace, there is ALWAYS pressure to keep up, and embarrassment about holding everyone up (been there, done that, and crashed).  So for me, not riding in a group is safer for me, and safer for you.   

Anyway, not saying that accidents are acceptable, but they are understandable.  What isn't is the flaming afterwards. 

[TCK!]

Best wishes to Brian, heal quick and heal strong.

It's been a long time since we've ridden together but I'm sure we'll see each other again out on the road quicker then you'd imagine.

[somegirl]

I'd think it would be advisable for any involved parties and/or witnesses not to comment on a public forum while there is a police report and/or insurance settlement still pending.

Just saying....

[desmoquattro]

Guys, a few thoughts:

1) I completely understand Enzo's sentiment. He, like many of us, have seen more than our fair share of carnage. Those of us who know him understand that he's a very mellow guy, and that when he posts like this, something's really upsetting him. Sure, it's impossible to weed out all the squids on our group rides, and many of us have had plenty of oh-shit moments. But many of us are here because this isn't BARF, and there are plenty of experienced and sensible riders around who in the past have taken on lead/sweep/safety duties and kept mahy people safe. Enzo may not have been tactful, but he has a point. I say cut him some slack.

2) I, like many others, was guilty of trying to keep the torrid pace of the lead group when I first started riding with the MOB. No matter how much I heard the "ride your own pace" advice, I used to think of it as a badge of honor to keep tigre, spidey, MM, and the other fast guys in sight. At some point, probably after doing my first track day, that bit of ego went out the window. For some people, a crash like this is what it takes. For others, a gentle reminder may be enough. If someone's riding like an asshat or doesn't belong in the fast group, chat him/her up and say something.

3) In spite of all the above nuance, there's never an excuse for going up someone's tailpipe. That's pretty cut and dried. Turn signals, brake lights, hand signals, etc are conveniences. At the end of the day, you're responsible for not hitting what's in front of you.

That said, speedy recovery to both. There will be plenty of time to dissect this over beers. Let's let the emotions subside for now.

[ghostrider]

Along your train of thought DQ.
I have learned from your experiences. The first group ride I went on was with you and Itsasickness, anyone who knows these two knows they ride fast, before we went out you said 'ride your own pace'. I took that to heart and I was so slow compared to the two of you that Itsasickness had time to have smoke while you guys waited for me. But I never felt any pressure to keep up. In fact you both looked genuinely happen to see a smile on my face.
If I never said it, THANK YOU for that.

This is how a group ride should go. Lets all strive to make all newcomers feel the same.

[desmoquattro]

Along your train of thought DQ.
I have learned from your experiences. The first group ride I went on was with you and Itsasickness, anyone who knows these two knows they ride fast, before we went out you said 'ride your own pace'. I took that to heart and I was so slow compared to the two of you that Itsasickness had time to have smoke while you guys waited for me. But I never felt any pressure to keep up. In fact you both looked genuinely happen to see a smile on my face.
If I never said it, THANK YOU for that.

This is how a group ride should go. Lets all strive to make all newcomers feel the same.

Thanks, Noel. I remember that ride. I prefaced the safety briefing with my usual warning:
Remember: I'm an idiot. Just because I do something doesn't mean you should.
Glad you took that to heart. Being a pilot, you know better than most not to let the machine get ahead of you. Unfortunately, not everyone knows or understands that.

I took that to heart and I was so slow compared to the two of you that Itsasickness had time to have smoke while you guys waited for me.

He was smoking to calm himself down after trying to keep up with my idiotic pace that day