Can't shift out of first without motor running.

[mstevens]

(I recall a thread touching on this subject on the DML started by someone else but I don't think much of a conclusion was reached.)

If I park my 620 Monster in first gear, there are times that it won't shift into neutral (or any other gear) before I start it. This wouldn't be a big problem, except that even with the clutch pulled in all the way the bike still jerks forward when I engage the starter until the engine starts. As soon as the engine fires the bike will stop moving and can be shifted as normal. If it's cold out and the bike takes some time to start, it can cover quite a bit of ground. Depending on what's in front of me, I've had to use the kill switch to avoid running into something. Obviously, there are times I can't move the bike around in the barn without starting it since it won't shift out of first.

This is not consistent and seems to occur about 10% of the time that the bike's been parked in gear. I don't know if it happens if the bike is parked in any gear other than first since I always park in first if I leave it in gear. It's happened on cold days and hot ones. It doesn't appear to be related to how long the bike has been parked. I've been avoiding parking in gear unless I'm on an incline just because of this.

The bike is serviced at BCM Ducati in Laconia, NH (I'm a technical moron) and last saw them a little over a year ago during which I've put not quite 2,000 miles on it. As is common with BCM-serviced bikes, it's got Klotz Techniplate 20w50 in its wet clutch. No clutch or shifter irregularities have been noted apart from this, and apart from a 14-tooth sprocket there are no mods that involve the transmission or clutch including levers.

I know from the old DML thread that at least one other person in the universe has experienced this. Does anyone here have any notions of what's going on?

[clubhousemotorsports]

It may be that the clutch plates are sticking together and when you are starting the bike even with the clutch pulled the plates are driving. very common on wet clutch bikes. My 851 dry clutch did the same when I ran a barnett clutch and it would bond itself together.

Try rocking the bike back and forth with the clutch out before starting it it will sometimes help break the plates free.

I think I was even the mechanic who worked on your bike at BCM
 

[mstevens]

Yep, I've sometimes been able to rock it and then shift into neutral but I wondered if I were breaking something.

If it's common, then I just won't worry about it. That's my usual solution to things and it's mostly worked thus far.

Thanks for working on my bike. If it doesn't have neurons I don't really know what to do with it.

[sydmonster]

 My ol' engine 600 used to have trouble finding neutrall all the time, unless the rear was still rolling. Its not un-common or a major problem as such, but i did want to fix ti.
A new slave cylinder in the clutch side engine case fixed that! The slave piston & rings really made the clutch disenguage and neutral was 'jap bike' easy to find. Also not that this upgrade included new braided lines (brakes and clutch) - chris

[clubhousemotorsports]

mstevens
it should get better not worse as you use it more. just use it as an excuse to ride [moto]
you will not harm anything by rocking the bike in gear.
I feel much better working on bikes than neurons..... being a moron myself

sydmonster
the 600 probably either had a blown clutch slave so there was air in the system or you just had air in your line. either way the mods you have done are tried and true.... good stuff.

[Ducatista]

Just shove your bike uphill about an inch or so before you try to put it in neutral, using the brake to hold it in its new position.  You're just resting on your transmission, which isn't hurting anything, and by rolling it uphill, you're taking the pressure off it so you can get it out of gear more easily.  If you have a hard time finding neutral and you have adjustable levers, adjust your clutch lever out a click or two and it might make it easier.

[sydmonster]

sydmonster
the 600 probably either had a blown clutch slave so there was air in the system or you just had air in your line. either way the mods you have done are tried and true.... good stuff.

The slave in the 600 was internal and not blown as such, just worn out. New cylinder and seals ment it moved that much more and really helped the action.
 I tried (several times/methods) bleeding and a new hose line, but in the end it was the cylinder that made the difference.  - Chris

[clubhousemotorsports]

The m600 in the states had a external slave just like the 750,900
We never had the early internal slave except in m750 prior to 1998 (and early ss,alazurra,paso,f1 etc)

[ScottRNelson]

With the engine off, you don't need to pull in the clutch to go from first to neutral.  Every bike I've ever owned - five different makes - will shift right into neutral rather easily under those conditions.  If it doesn't want to go, rock it forward and back an inch or so.  It should work all the time.

I recommend that you go check it out for yourself by shifting between first and neutral a dozen times with the bike off.  Rock the bike forward and back to get pressure on the gears to see how it changes things and you'll understand this better.

At times my ST2 has not fully released the clutch, so it didn't want to go into neutral when the engine was running, but it always pops right in as soon as I kill the engine.  I even rode a Harley over the weekend that was a bit hard to get into neutral, but was easy once the engine was off.

[Howie]

DOH! (slapping side of head)   Scott os correct.  The clutch has no effect when the engine is off.

[mstevens]

Just to be clear, this is not a problem FINDING neutral - it's an inability to shift out of first at all. Note, too, that another aspect of this problem is that if I go ahead and just start the bike in first the clutch does not disengage no matter what the lever position is. Shifting from first to neutral (or second, for that matter) when this is happening is not possible until the clutch plates are broken apart. I find ducvet's explanation convincing.

[mstevens]

DOH! (slapping side of head)   Scott os correct.  The clutch has no effect when the engine is off.

This is obviously not correct.

Here's a test:

Put your bike in first with the engine off.
Try to push it.
Now, pull in the clutch.
Try to push it again.

Was there a difference? If so, the clutch does have an effect when the engine is off.

[ScottRNelson]

This is obviously not correct.

Here's a test:

Put your bike in first with the engine off.
Try to push it.
Now, pull in the clutch.
Try to push it again.

Was there a difference? If so, the clutch does have an effect when the engine is off.

Ummm.  I thought we were talking about shifting from first to neutral (or second gear), not pushing the bike while in gear.  Did I miss something in this thread? 

[Howie]

Ummm.  I thought we were talking about shifting from first to neutral (or second gear), not pushing the bike while in gear.  Did I miss something in this thread? 

Exactly.
 

[mstevens]

Ummm.  I thought we were talking about shifting from first to neutral (or second gear), not pushing the bike while in gear.  Did I miss something in this thread? 

I was responding to "The clutch has no effect when the engine is off." It may not be necessary to use the clutch to shift a bike when the engine is off, but the clutch certainly does have an effect.

In any event, under the circumstances I'm describing I can't move the shift lever whether or not I'm using the clutch.