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Author Topic: How do you deal with not being insured at the track?  (Read 6996 times)
Chchadder
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« on: July 28, 2009, 09:16:36 AM »

Many insurance companies are now closing the loophole that allowed claims for accidents that occur on closed courses during untimed "driver education" events.  This means that many of us are now left without insurance when we take our bikes to the track, and face the possibility of cancellation if we even ask our companies if they cover track days.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/automobiles/19INSURE.html

Just curious as to how people are dealing with this.  I'd love to get a cheap track bike that I don't care about, but also want to wring out my new rocket every now and then without worrying too much about it.
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Triple J
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2009, 09:40:00 AM »

Track bike.
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2009, 09:51:22 AM »

Can you cut and paste the article? Can't be viewed without having an account...
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2009, 10:14:29 AM »

Life is one big risk, live it.

Over here full coverage is unreasonably expensive. Like a M695 costing 7000€  without taxes has a 700€  premium.  (that's if you've got car insurance with them as well) So no-one has full coverage, only the required Liability. It keeps you from acting stupid I guess.
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Markus
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 10:31:50 AM »

Roll the dice and take yer chances, Sally Wink

Seriously, though, having a dedicated track bike you could wad up and walk away from (no pun intended) is the best solution. I don't follow that advice though.... I take my street bikes on the track once or twice each summer, but don't spend enough time track riding to justify having a dedicated track bike.

It's all a matter of risk tolerance.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 10:57:40 AM by Markus » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2009, 10:42:03 AM »

I it were me writing insurance there's absolutely no way I'd write coverage for a track bike at any price.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

LA

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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 10:54:39 AM »

I said track bike, but I do 5+ trackdays per year. If I only did 1-2 or so I'd just risk it with my street bike...which is exactly what I used to do.
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 10:59:30 AM »

I wouldn't and haven't claimed a track crash on insurance in the first place.  Which means that standard rules apply . . .

Don't take any bike to the track that you can't afford to/aren't willing to toss away.  Otherwise, go the track, ride at 60% and pray nothing bad happens.  Besides, you can buy a track bike for less than what crashing a monster at the track is gonna cost.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2009, 11:54:11 AM »

Can you cut and paste the article? Can't be viewed without having an account...

New York Times
October 19, 2008
Wheelspin
Car Insurance May Not Cover You at the Track
By ROY FURCHGOTT
IT’S no secret that insurance companies don’t like the people they cover to drive fast. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that the industry has been removing a policy loophole that insured drivers on racetracks.

That has left weekend warriors uninsured if they participate in track days or attend high-performance driving schools. Jerry Kunzman, executive director of the National Auto Sport Association, said that participation at its track events had jumped fivefold since 2003 and that many of those drivers had no idea they were not covered..

“Maybe 25 or 30 percent have done the research, the middle third just assumes they are covered, and the top third just don’t have a clue,” he said.

What’s happened is that many insurers have redefined the term “racing.” Policies have long had exclusions for racing, but it was defined as a “timed event.”

High-performance driver education neatly avoided that definition. Although cars may take laps at top speed, they aren’t timed.

At many schools, including those held by the Porsche Club of America and the BMW Car Club of America, students are required to attend classroom sessions. On the track, drivers get one-on-one tutoring from an instructor under controlled conditions. The cars are generally sent around the track in small groups with passing limited to straightaways — and only when the driver being passed signals that doing so is all right. So because these runs were not timed, many drivers were covered by their normal automobile policies.

That loophole did not escape the attention of insurers — some clubs practically taunted them in their newsletters. “There was a period of time when clubs were openly flouting this. ‘Take driver’s education and your insurance will cover you. Drive your car the way it was meant to be driven,’” said McKeel Hagerty, chief executive of the Hagerty Insurance Agency, an automotive specialty insurer.

So the industry began to add a new exclusion to its policies in the late 1990s, with most companies adding it within the last few years. Instead of trying to define racing, policies exclude damage at any location that could accommodate racing, timed or not. That eliminated coverage during high-performance driving schools and track days.

Chris Soignier of Austin, Tex., will not be taking his Porsche Cayman to the track, which he had done with his previous cars. When he read his renewal notice from Progressive Insurance last November, he found that the Cayman was not covered on the track.

“I don’t feel like I’m that much at risk, but the magnitude of the loss is too great for me to be comfortable,” he said.

Not all drivers got word of the change, or, like Mr. Soignier, read their new policy. Also, because insurance is regulated by the state, exemptions in Michigan, for example, may differ from those in California.

To make matters worse, asking insurers to clarify coverage could result in a nasty surprise. Mike Barr, a dentist from Palm Beach, Fla., called the insurer USAA to see if his policy covered his Subaru WRX STi on the track.

“Some months later I got a letter from USAA saying they were going to discontinue coverage,” he said.” “They dropped me because I asked about” performance driving schools. “They confirmed it verbally when I called to inquire further.” A USAA spokesman said Dr. Barr was canceled for “several reasons,” but would not elaborate.

Some drivers reduce their exposure by getting an inexpensive track car. As an insurance underwriter for Chubb insurance in Whitehouse Station, N.J., you’d think Eugene Lim would be averse to risk, and he is. But he is also a driving aficionado who is qualified as a high-performance driving instructor. After 40 track days in his Acura NSX, Mr. Lim discovered he was uninsured on the track. So he bought what is essentially a disposable car. “When I got really serious, I bought a turbo Miata. Six thousand dollars would still hurt, but it’s not my NSX,” which was worth about $45,000.

Such a growing market would seem to be an opportunity — and it is. Specialty insurers have tried offering high-performance-school insurance.

“It was a difficult program,” said Laura Bergan, vice president for marketing at American Collectors Insurance. “Difficult as in, we were paying a lot of claims.” American phased out its performance-school coverage last year.

American, like other insurers who have tried the insurance, ran into a series of hurdles. To attract a pool of clients and spread risk, the policies were priced low — an average of $500 to $750 a year, Ms. Bergan said. The number of claims wasn’t a problem, but the cost of the claims was. “Most of the claims were total losses,” she said.

Other companies tried higher pricing, but found few takers.

Cost is not the only barrier. Many drivers don’t think they’ll crash, and unlike regular car insurance, track insurance is not mandated by states. Drivers often confuse track insurance provided by clubs, which in most cases covers only liability and injury, with collision insurance.

The growing market still attracts new insurers. Laura Hauenstein, president of the WSIB Insurance Agency of Jackson, Mich., which specializes in motorsports coverage, was initially against offering performance-school insurance. She changed her mind three years ago when WSIB found a way to streamline the underwriting process.

“I would say we had 100, the first year or two, but this year we put ads in Porsche Panorama,” she said. “My numbers might be off — it could be 500.”

The WSIB premium is 3 percent of the car’s value. The deductible is $2,500, or 4 percent of the car’s value, whichever is greater. So an experienced driver on an approved track with a $100,000 Porsche 911 Carrera S would pay $3,000 to cover 10 events in one year, with a deductible of $4,000. Other companies, like K & K Insurance Group of Fort Wayne, Ind., and Motorsports Insurance Services of Los Angeles, have begun to offer the insurance, but use a more complex formula to price it.

Gene Cottingham, former chief financial officer of Champ Car World Series, which held open-wheel races, knows what track accidents can cost. So he insured his modified 2006 Mustang GT pace car for $40,000. The $1,200 premium seemed high at first, but “when you spread that cost over five to six weekends, it’s really not that much money,” he said.

“The purpose of insurance for me,” he added, “is peace of mind.”



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This motorcycle is simply too goddamn fast to ride at speed in any kind of normal road traffic unless you're ready to go straight down the centerline with your nuts on fire and a silent scream in your throat. ~Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 02:33:37 PM »

Besides, you can buy a track bike for less than what crashing a monster at the track is gonna cost.
but if your riding at 60% what the hell is going to cause a crash? its not that big of a risk to me unless your passing people, or riding beyond your comfort zone...

but +1 on a track bike. If i crash the monster once, the damage is enough to buy a hooked up bike of the wear forums for $3 grand.
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2009, 02:40:36 PM »

but if your riding at 60% what the hell is going to cause a crash? its not that big of a risk to me unless your passing people, or riding beyond your comfort zone...


The problem I see is it is pretty much impossible to ride at 60% of your ability at a track day. It'd be boring as hell. Before long you're riding at 90%...and that extra 10% can be lost pretty fast.  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2009, 02:57:43 PM »

but if your riding at 60% what the hell is going to cause a crash? its not that big of a risk to me unless your passing people, or riding beyond your comfort zone...


What about the other yahoos on the track with you?  One rider's mistake can take out several others.

As others have said, if you can't just walk away from it, you probably shouldn't have it on the track.
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2009, 03:24:53 PM »

but if your riding at 60% what the hell is going to cause a crash? its not that big of a risk to me unless your passing people, or riding beyond your comfort zone...

Seriously?!? Here are a few things I've seen that have little or nothing to do with rider pace:

Some guy oils down the track
Some guy crashes and oils down the track
Some guy oils down the track, grease sweep is put down, but they miss some parts
Some guy is running antifreeze (whether allowed or not) and coats the track
On a drying track, there is a hidden patch of water.  Hit it when leaned over and you're done.
You make a mechanical mistake -- tweak brake line and lose your brakes, have two gaskets on your oil filter and dump an entire engine's worth of oil, screw up your brakes and have them lock up against the rotors, or a million other things.
Some one passes you at the last minute (cuz you're going 60%), misjudge your speed because of the delta and cut off your nose
Some one misjudges your speed because of the delta, try to take you on the inside, misjudge and T-bone you.
Some one tries to take it inside in a turn and lose the front and takes you out
Some one tries to take you on the inside in a turn, has an issue, stands it up and forces you off track where you crash
Some one else runs off the track and leaves mud at the apex on a blind turn.  You hit and go boom.

Besides, like TripleJ said, it's not really possible to ride at 60% at a track day unless you're at a school where they're working on specific skills and have you going 60% for some of the day.
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 08:15:37 PM »

Seriously?!? Here are a few things I've seen that have little or nothing to do with rider pace:

Some guy oils down the track
Some guy crashes and oils down the track
Some guy oils down the track, grease sweep is put down, but they miss some parts
Some guy is running antifreeze (whether allowed or not) and coats the track
On a drying track, there is a hidden patch of water.  Hit it when leaned over and you're done.
You make a mechanical mistake -- tweak brake line and lose your brakes, have two gaskets on your oil filter and dump an entire engine's worth of oil, screw up your brakes and have them lock up against the rotors, or a million other things.
Some one passes you at the last minute (cuz you're going 60%), misjudge your speed because of the delta and cut off your nose
Some one misjudges your speed because of the delta, try to take you on the inside, misjudge and T-bone you.
Some one tries to take it inside in a turn and lose the front and takes you out
Some one tries to take you on the inside in a turn, has an issue, stands it up and forces you off track where you crash
Some one else runs off the track and leaves mud at the apex on a blind turn.  You hit and go boom.

Besides, like TripleJ said, it's not really possible to ride at 60% at a track day unless you're at a school where they're working on specific skills and have you going 60% for some of the day.

alot of those things can happen in everyday riding. Except for the ones that involve others, but i did say "unless your passing people".  (if we are allowing people to take others in corners, which to my knowledge isnt allowed unless your in an advance track day class, which in that case, you probably have enough money to pay for track days to own a track bike, so you have no excuse anyway). but im not one to speak from experience as i havent been to the track. It would seem very likely that its impossible to ride at 60% when ur free to go as fast as u want!

are you allowed to sue someone if they do someting stupid to cause you to crash?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 08:24:42 PM by He Man » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2009, 08:26:53 PM »

alot of those things can happen in everyday riding.

Sure, I guess.  But you ever seen any of that on that street and/or see it regularly?

Generally, you sign a waiver of liability when you get on the track that says that you waive you right to sue anyone and everyone even if they sleep with your mom, rape your cat and eat your father's brain.  That said, nothing stops you from filing a lawsuit if something happens.  Whether it goes anywhere is a whole 'nuther story. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 08:29:13 PM by Spidey » Logged

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