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Author Topic: ERC in Arizona  (Read 4663 times)
Michael
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2009, 06:43:51 PM »

I also have issue with the notion that you should ride out a rear wheel skid. If you are crossed up, then sure, but while the wheel is sliding you dont have control, if the bike is fairly strait then getting off the rear brake wheel get the rear tire rolling again and you will have better control. And I have always felt that these classes need to be tailored better for the kind of bike people ride. On a sporting motorcycle, the rear brake is really not that useful. I see newer riders over using the thing all the time and doing things like locking the rear wheel and also using the rear brake in a turn to "speed check" which is just flat improper technique.

I came across this today.

"Because highside accidents are so much more deadly than lowside accidents, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends that if a rider locks the rear brake, it should be kept locked until the motorcycle comes to a stop. If necessary, locking the front brake to deliberately cause a lowside is recommended."

- http://motorcycle-glossary.com/high-side/156

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pennyrobber
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2009, 08:29:51 AM »

I came across this today.

"Because highside accidents are so much more deadly than lowside accidents, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends that if a rider locks the rear brake, it should be kept locked until the motorcycle comes to a stop. If necessary, locking the front brake to deliberately cause a lowside is recommended."

- http://motorcycle-glossary.com/high-side/156

I love how they talk about it like you have all this time to decide. Imagine having your rear wheel locked and skidding and thinking "hmmm, this might end in a high side, maybe I should just mash the front brake and lowside instead."
Nothing against the MSF as I think it is a great organization but I would also counter this by saying losing the rear under acceleration is a much more likely cause of a highside than locking the rear under breaking. Advising people to purposefully make themselves crash is just plain bad advice.
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Dietrich
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2009, 08:39:40 AM »

I agree that it's hard to go through all those choices in the middle of a butt-pucker moment.  Also I think you would have less luck forcing a lowside by trying to lock the front on purpose as you would just riding out the rear wheel skid.  I don't know about it being more likely highsiding from losing the rear under acceleration though - The same thing happens if you spin up the rear or slide it from over braking, both situations can result in a highside. Spinning it up is probably more likey from over zealous experienced riders, and skidding more likely from paniccing new riders.  I've personally highsided from locking the rear, getting sideways, and then getting traction when the bike is perpendicular to the direction of travel.   Bikes make pretty good catapults in this configuration. Smiley
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DG
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2009, 07:46:24 PM »

It has been my experience unfortunately to have done both, low & high, and low side lay downs a result of A) too much speed with a dusty apex and B) too much rear brake that put the back of the bike at a 90 to my direction of travel when the peg bit in. The high side, much worse, was from too much speed with a lane change drift that rather than push the bike over farther I grabbed the front brake...front braking launches pretty impressive high sides...the infamous "inverted flying W". I can't see rear braking causing high sides ordinarily, even in all the race footage I've watched, it always seems to be alot of front brake, a quick wash-out, and then the instant grab!  Geronimo!
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Dietrich
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2009, 09:11:42 AM »

Been trying to remember this quote I've seen in some signature lines around the forums:

"If you love your bike, set it free....if it comes back, you've probably highsided."

 Cool
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Dietrich
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2009, 09:56:05 AM »

Here are some of my thoughts on these points....  Hope this doesn't sound preachy.  Just my thoughts/recommendations after years and years of riding.  Part of what's fun about motorcycling for me is the risk, flirting with danger, and putting yourself in a different element.  It makes me feel alive.  At the same time, I don't have a death wish - I would like to contunue flirting with danger for a long time. Smiley  I am no authority, just like to continue the discussion on riding technique.

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1) Look where you want to be.
- Most people know this, but most people don't do it correctly. Looking where you want to be means to look to your destination, not just ahead of your motorcycle. For example, a U-turn means you would look to the other end of the U immediately when you start the turn; not at the apex of the turn, which is what I normally did.
Agree.  I am constantly reminding myself and practicing to look as far out as possible.  Things you see looking right in front of your wheel are too late to do anything about.  Train yourself to trust the control you have over the direction you're going without looking at the ground.  Love this quote also: "Make target fixation work for you - aim for something soft".   Grin

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2) No breaking during a turn, but only use rear brake (not front at all) if you have to.
- This was interesting, especially because so many people don't use their back brake at all. First, you need to get to correct turning speed before you enter in a turn. But if you were to use your front brake after that then it would compress your suspension in the front, whereas the back brake would just slow you down. This is more of an issue at really slow and tight turns.
Disagree.  We've already discussed this, but... On the street there is no way you should be even close to using up your percentage of available traction.  Scrubbing speed in a corner is not going to crash you.  You just have to be aware of how the front or rear brake will affect where and how your bike is going.  I'm an advocate of learning how the controls on your bike work so that they become natural, instinct.  For example, it's good to know that hard front braking in a corner makes the bike stand up and want to go wide - if you know this in advance, and experience it, you can conciously make a decision to use the front brake hard, and ALSO countersteer even harder to offset the tendency for the bike to stand up, and continue your desired direction of travel.  This is the same as knowing how not to grab a handful of brake in an emergency.  It's something you have to practice - smooth braking and you can use so much brake the rear tire is skimming, or off of the ground, front tire squealing, and stop as fast as possible.  Stab the brake and the front tire, unweighted, is locking up.

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3) What happens when your back tire locks up and you start to skid? Let it skid.
- Don't take your foot off of the back brake if your back tire is skidding, especially if it is skidding out sideways. The reason is is a locked up back tire will simply follow the front and straighten itself out. However, if you suddenly release that tire it be as though you suddenly turned the handlebars and you'll topple over.
Again, good idea to try and get a feel for this.  A good way is on a dirt bike, or even a mountain bike.  Skid the thing around.  See how a two wheeled vehicle reacts.  Every situation is different, and you need to be able to massage the thing back into control, or at least try to decide how you're going out. For example, on my recent near cactus loving experience, I modulated both brakes on and off to play with the limited traction I had to try and stop as quickly as possible.  I'm sure it just looked out of control to innocent bystanders, but I assure you I was making multiple braking choices the entire ride off the pavement. Wink

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4) The left side of the lane is usually the best.
- Make that person behind you see you better by being right in front of him.
Agree for the most part.  I am constantly trying to put myself in the best possible location for drivers to be able to see me, and also do not count on any of them seeing me.  Protect yourself!

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5) Slow down, and then punch the gas a little bit before you hit a bump.
- This lifts pressure off of your front tires and extends the suspension, but then you should lift your butt a little bit to not put too much pressure on the back. If you're a big guy like me, this is an interesting trick to master.
I have trouble with this one.  Makes sense on a dirt bike, and I know you can extend the suspension on a street bike by being on the throttle, but the situations where I have needed to brace for impact of an obstacle there just isn't time to roll on the throttle.  Usually I try to get my butt off the seat, let the suspension do it's thing, and make sure I stay light and loose on the bike.  Best thing you can do for this in advance?  Make sure your suspension is properly set up for your weight.  If you're using up half of your fork's travel just in sag sitting at a stop light, there is no way it can handle a decent sized bump.  Get your preloads sorted out for street riding is a good start.  Preload with rider on board should have the bike sagging approx 30% of it's total suspension travel, front and rear.

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6) Turning a Monster tight at a slow speed is difficult
- The trick is to lean far way from the turn, increase the throttle and feather the clutch.
Already discussed also.  Definitely feather the clutch for really slow speed stuff.

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7) If you have to slam on your brakes in the middle of a turn, straighten first.
- This is really important because if you slam on your brakes while you're leaning, you'll run the risk of losing control and flying off of your bike. If something jumps out in front of you, straighten your bike before you touch the brake at all (even if you have to go off the road a little), and then stop.
I struggle with this one, because it's a hard one to practice.  It's also probably a huge percentage of how people crash. Many of the twisty roads just don't look very inviting running straight off a corner trying to slow down.  I think we need to be realistic about the risks we take riding fast, or even the speed limit in twisty stuff.  If I come around a blind curve at 50 MPH and am faced with a parked car or something...not sure.  Speed is time.  We make our choices and take our risks. Be smart and make sure you are OK with the risks (and consequences thereof) you are taking.  Ride how you are comfortable, and be prepared to avoid a crash at all times.

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8 ) Leather is best
- "In studies of 'survivability' of various garment materials to a 50 MPH ride on asphalt, for example, denim lasted no more than FOUR FEET before wearing through. Kevlar, on the other hand, lasted EIGHTEEN FEET. But standard motorcycle quality (about three times heavier than fashion jacket material) lasted EIGHTY-SIX FEET. That's more than 20 times as effective as your jeans in protecting your hide."
Not much comment needed on this one!  I would say, again, that we all make choices with the risks we take.  What we wear, and how we ride.  Have I done wheelies in a half shell helmet and t-shirt?  Yeah.  Have I gone to the coffee shop in full leathers?  yeah.  I like my skin, and for some reason as I get older jeans don't seem like a good option on the freeway....or even hitting an oil spot at an intersection at 15 MPH.  I think with how well our bikes handle, it's easy to forget that you're hurling yourself along on a 400 pound piece of machinery at 80 MPH.  So....again...do what you're personally comfortable with.

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9) Never lay down a bike
- If you're about to t-bone a garbage truck, ride your brakes until impact. With only 2 extra seconds on the bike, it would mean the difference between hitting the truck at 23 mph versus 45 mph.
I think this is good advice.  Hard to practice, and also probably hard to have that much time to think about in those situations.  Do what you can to avoid the crash.

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10) Look at head -- way ahead
- If you're on the freeway you need at LEAST 2 seconds of space between you and the car in front of you, but you need to look down the road about 12 seconds to have enough time to plan for what's ahead.
Practice this always!  Also a good way to plan your route filtering through traffic.  waytogo

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11) Never look down, never look where you don't want to go
- Especially in problem situation -- let's say you hit some gravel on a fast turn and your bike is wobbling, don't stare at the wall you're about to hit, instead look to where you want to go and don't slam on the brakes. Eyes always up, feet on the pegs, look where you want to be, and ride it out.
See #1 above.  Target fixation is real folks. We've all experienced it, and it's so strange how paralized you can get. 

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12) When you come to a stop, stay way behind the person in front of you.
- Keep it in first, keep your hands on the handlebars, and if someone behind you isn't able to stop in time you have room to move to the side of the car in front of you. And now that skidding semi truck is their problem and not yours.
Not so sure about this.  I try to participate in traffic, not put myself in situations where I'm in an unexpected place.  Agree with giving yourself escape routes.  And ALWAYS watch your back.  I always flash my brake lights for approaching vehicles if I am last in line (or first stopped at a light).

« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 10:47:22 AM by Dietrich » Logged

Michael
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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 10:22:27 AM »

I love discussing this kind of stuff.

I just read this on another thread about breaking while turning, it supports what you just said about #2. It's from fasterblkduc:

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Practice in a controlled environment like the racetrack is much more beneficial. You're wondering about braking while swerving a little, (from the way I understand your question). A lot of seat time at trackdays can help you understand this more because as you get more comfortable using the brakes at high speeds going into corners, you will start to use the brakes more aggressively and will eventually start trail braking into the corner closer to the apex. As a racer, I use this technique all the time. It takes time to develop this skill but after you do, you can comfortably brake hard and continue to brake hard while intitiating a turn.
When you see racers outbrake each other, we are grabbing the brake very late, and then holding it all the way to the apex of the turn where our lean angle is the farthest. Then we are back on throttle and driving out.(over simplified version)
It's not just a matter of grabbing hard and hoping that you stop fast. I instruct both street riders, and racers at a performance riding school. One of the things that we teach is, "slow hands make fast riders". It applies to your situation here because you want to use your brakes, and steering inputs, in a smooth controlled manor. From the sounds of your crash, you likely were grabbing the front too hard for the conditions. I just skimmed the article posted above but I did catch one thing that backs up what I'm saying. There is a reference to how racers can stop faster and the reason is that we know how to ease on that brake lever in the most efficient way possible to maximize our braking without locking up. We routinely do unintentional stoppies into corners and are pushing the limits of that front tire right to the edge.
The only way to learn this is on a closed course with a large variety of turns. I highly recommend a performance riding school to help you with this. I don't recommend an MSF course for this. That is a fine course but does not teach you performance riding techniques.
Hope this helps!
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triangleforge
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2009, 10:05:00 AM »


4) The left side of the lane is usually the best.
- Make that person behind you see you better by being right in front of him.

 [moto]

+1 on what Dietrich said; another reason I tend to stay toward the left of the lane on two lane rural roads (all else being equal) is that it gives me a better look at the shoulder & any critters that are waiting there inclined to try to commit suicide & take me with them. Especially in deer & elk country I make a point of periodically reminding my peripheral vision to stay aware of out of the ordinary things just off the roadway, on both sides.
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