Riding safe on public roads. What it means.

[Duki09]

I consider myself a safe rider.

Many say they are safe riders, but sometimes I doubt they know what that really means.

This does not just pertain to wearing safety gear.

This is not just about watching out for the police.

That means I don't believe riding extremely hard on any public streets or highways is ever a good idea  or think a "more experienced" rider who has been riding longer than I have or has more knowledge of motorcycles is always a safer rider than I am and and will avoid trying to keep with anyone who is riding beyond my capabilties or what I consider as safe.

I also am not arrogant and get stupid around any car or truck and will give them the right-of-way.
The excuse of "I had the right-of-of way"  doesn't mean diddly crap if you end up dead.
Being safe sometimes requires being humble and give the other person the right-of-way even if you think they are an a$$hole driver.

Too many riders say "You are invisable", yet they ride in a manner around vehicles which increases that invisabilty, then they have the audacity to say "Those damn cagers!"
I agree that there are many stupid drivers out there, but there are equally as many stupid motorcyclists and I never assume the cager is the one always at fault.

If you go out and plan to "drag some knee" on some canyon twisties...guess what, you aren't a safe rider even if you are wearing full gear.

Riding wheelies down the highway.  Yeah!, cool huh?   Not a safe rider.

The excuse of "My motorcycle is made to be rode hard and fast and I am willing to take  some risk to have some extra fun" may be your opinion, but defies any sense of saying you are ever a safe rider.

"What sense does it make to have a fast motorcycle and never ride it to it's limit?"
Probably the same reason why you don't see every car on the road driving at 150mph or even faster even if they are designed to do so.
Even people with the fastest sport cars never ride it as fast as it can. So what makes anyone think riding a fast sportbike requires having to ride hard and fast?
I saw a beautiful Lamborghini Diablo on the highway not too long ago. Was the driver going 200mph because his car could?  No he was doing the speed limit of 55-65mph. I assume he was enjoying that ride even without going fast.  I know I would.

I see and hear so much hypocrisy when it comes to riders saying they are safe, but they are really just the opposite.

I used to ride with a group lead by this one guy who has been in two bad accidents on his motorcycle in which all his buddies automatically said it was the "cager's fault"  Knowing how aggressive this guy rode I wouldn't doubt it was always his fault and I stopped riding with him and that group as I didn't feel safe around such a bad influence.  
This guy's idea of a safe and laid back ride was doing 90mph around tight corners and required always looking for cops because  following him could guarantee a criminal speeding ticket...but you know, he preached safety before every ride.  
So now I learn that this same "safe rider" gets into another accident, of course it was the "cager's fault" according to him, and his injuries were so bad, he had to stop riding.  Yeeaah, not someone I trust in the safety department or believe an ounce of what he says.
I also have learned that another so-called "safe rider" from this group dies after losing control of his motorcycle going too fast around some corner.  Yes, he was another rider I knew was truly an aggressive rider more than a "safe rider"
These incidents are unfortunate, but not unexpected after knowing how truly unsafe these riders were

I may not be the rider which other riders would consider as extreme and fun as they may like to ride, but then I never crashed on any motorcycle and that is all that matters to me.

There is already an immediate danger of riding a motorcycle, however that doesn't mean riding a motorcycle needs to be totally avoided, but many take it to a suicidal level because they can't control their level of enjoyment of riding motorcycle or have any respect for it.

[EvilSteve]

How often do you check your tire pressure?
How often do you change your brake & clutch fluid?
How often do you change your brake pads?
How often do you check your chain tension?
How often do you check your tire wear?
How often do you replace your helmet?
How often do you exceed the speed limit?
How often do you not come to a dead stop at a stop sign?
Have you got a reflective or very brightly colored helmet?
Do you wear full gear which is high visibility?
Which side of the lane do you use when passing cars?
Have you done any training?
Have you done a track day?
Do you know statistically where the most risk comes from when riding?
etc. etc.

If you can answer all of these questions correctly then maybe you are the exception & are 100% safe at all times.

It's all shades of gray. No one is perfect & no one is a 100% safe driver/rider because we're all human. Holding people to an unrealistic standard is bound to have them fail.

I would say that I spend the bulk of my riding attempting to be safe but I know when I hit certain roads that I'm going to go fast and that may not be safe but I make this choice knowing that it isn't. I inform people I'm riding with that they should go their own speed & to be safe for themselves.

I've crashed 3 times:
1. Oil & new rain - lost the front
2. Cold day = cold road - lowside
3. Run off the road by a dump truck

Does that mean I'm not safe?

[hunduc]

... but I know when I hit certain roads that I'm going to go fast and that may not be safe but I make this choice knowing that it isn't.   ...

Does that mean I'm not safe?

By the definition of "safe" I would say you are not. Your choice of going fast can be fatal to someone else as well. I also make the exact same choice as you from time to time and in those cases I am not a safe rider either. I think the OP had a problem with people who say they are safe riders then they go and do stupid (very unsafe) things.   

[EvilSteve]

But the extent of the argument was what I had issue with. Boiling it down, if I choose to do one unsafe thing a month, does that mean I'm an unsafe rider? 1 per year? What's the definition of unsafe? Passing on double yellows when you're stuck behind a farm vehicle doing 30mph under the speed limit? Accelerating to 15 over the speed limit to avoid being next to a car when it's merging onto the freeway?

The definition of what's safe, reasonably safe & extremely unsafe are subjective. The OP doesn't seem to think that someone who lights it up on twisties is a safe rider. I was posing the questions I did to find out what the OP felt was the distinction between something they believe is ok but isn't actually safe.

I also find the distinct lack of sympathy for riders doing what the large majority of us do as kind of off putting.

[Duki09]

Evil Steve,  are you trying to defend riders for riding like idiots?

Why do you try to shift the point of people riding like idiots to if they wear hi-visabilty gear and how old their helmet is? If I wear dark colored gear while otherwise riding in a safe manner, does that make me an unsafe  rider compared to a guy riding his bike at 130mph wearing flourecent orange?  Your argument fails there sir.

Your questions of maintaining your bike and having training are good points to safety and yes, I do properly maintain my bike, fluids, air pressure, etc and took a few extra riding lessons and wear gear that is in good condition. Some dark colored, some high-vis.  My helmet is less than a year old. The one before that was less than 3 years.

Did I ever say I was an expert rider?  NO. Which is good reason why I am extra careful and doesn't make me overconfident like some adrenaline junkies.

As far as your questions:

I've crashed 3 times:
1. Oil & new rain - lost the front
2. Cold day = cold road - lowside
3. Run off the road by a dump truck

Does that mean I'm not safe?

I don't know. You tell me. Could you have rode slower after it rained or on that cold day?  Maybe decide not to ride at all?

If you were run off by the road by a dump truck, that could happened and I never said it was your fault, because I don't know you or what type of rider you are.
But I do know riders who will avoid the details of saying that dump truck was going too slow for them, they are impatient  and attempted a high speed pass in the trucker's blind spot, the trucker doesn't see the motorcycle and ***crash***.
Some bikers out there sometimes avoid those little minor details of the actual incident that will otherwise reveal the truth.

[Duki09]

I also find the distinct lack of sympathy for riders doing what the large majority of us do as kind of off putting.

So if the majority jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?

That wouldn't get my sympathy, but I'd call it as thinning out the herd.

[Dietrich]

Seems like what could be a thread about trying to define what it means to ride safe on public roads, as the thread title says (but is very hard to define IMHO), will easily degrade to a bunch of personal attacks by all parties.

Everyone has their own idea of what is "safe", has their own boundaries of percieved risk, and makes their own decisions about how much risk to take in any given situation.  I've know riders who I see do things I would NEVER do on a bike, but also take overly extreme caution in situations I feel perfectly safe in.  Some people are fine taking it to the limit on a track and ride like grandmas on the street. 

My point is it takes all kinds.  The discussion could be interesting.  Personal attacks and gross generalizations about people's riding decisions are not interesting.

[EvilSteve]

I'm not defending people riding like idiots, I'm trying to point out that your perception of what's safe & what isn't safe is not an objective line in the sand that all must adhere to.

The example of high-viz gear is a safety issue, your visibility to other motorists is greatly affected by what you wear. You don't wear high-viz gear so on the face of it your argument says that you're not a safe rider. I also don't wear high-viz gear.

Do you check your air pressure before each ride? Do you have an air pump in your garage? Do you do all these things before each ride? I don't but I check frequently. How often is frequently? I couldn't tell you.

The specifics of my post were meant to make the point that what is safe & what isn't is relative to a lot of different things. Your argument seemed to me to be that anyone who rides unsafely deserves what they get. This a flawed argument entirely because it's based on the premise that you can judge what is safe. It's also IMO a poor conclusion because you suggest that a person going down in unknown circumstances who had (in your opinion) been riding unsafely in the past also gets what they deserve. Just because someone rides in a manner that you feel is idiotic at one point doesn't mean that any future accident is automatically their fault.

Your expertise in this argument isn't relevant.

My crashes were all my fault in some way or another.
1. Rode through rain for an hour & got to a town where it had just started raining (but I didn't click in time that this was the case). I was doing the speed limit & attempting to make a right hand turn onto a side street but failed. I could have been going slower and that may have helped. The parking lot (I was visiting a friend who lived on this street) had just been repaved & a lot of (oily) trucks had been coming & going.

2. Road was cold, I'd been riding through some twisties & everything seemed fine for the other corners I'd been on, both left & right, but making this left hander, the front went away. I was going under the speed limit at the time & it was very tight corner. I was using Dunlop Qualifiers (properly broken in) at the time which don't have the best reputation for feedback so maybe that was contributory.

3. It's in the crashes thread if you're interested in the details but I was traveling down a country lane with no center divider going about 5 over the speed limit. I was already in the right hand side of my lane (actually to the far right of the road) to make sure I gave people coming the other way space. Going around the blind left hander, I slowed down and found a dump truck coming in the other direction in the middle of the lane going at least as fast as I was. I had about 4ft (n.b. not wide enough for a car) either side of the truck to avoid being squished. I avoided the truck but target fixated on the side of the road & crashed.

Cutting to the chase - your arguments are very simplistic & pretty callous. You don't seem to be willing to accept shades of gray where there are plenty & you don't seem to want to allow people more than one personality characteristic once you've decided they're not safe. By your definition, I'm not safe, nor are any of the people I ride with or have ridden with. Does this mean we're wheelying everywhere & making really poor choices? No. Does this mean we deserve no sympathy if something goes wrong? In your book we don't deserve any, in my book it depends on the circumstances.

For the record, the bridge argument is completely flawed and illogical.

[He Man]

Safe to you is not safe to me, or safe to another person.

Riding a motorcycle is not safe to begin with. But you take precautions to ensure your maximum safety within your specified limits, otherwise you would not ride a motorcycle to begin with.

In fact, this is true for every single thing anyone will ever do in their life.

Regarding your first post, let me ask you a few questions based on it...

but then I never crashed on any motorcycle and that is all that matters to me.

Since you believe you are safe, do you think you will never crash?

I consider myself a safe rider.....that means...i don't .....think a "more experienced" rider who has been riding longer than I have or has more knowledge of motorcycles is always a safer rider than I am

I know you said, "...always a safer rider..." But do you at least acknowledge that being more experienced, makes you a safer rider? If yes, do you at least acknowledge that a more experienced rider is more in control? If yes, do you at least acknowledge that the ideal of being in control has a SAFE limit? If yes, can that safe limit not conform to your idea of safe?

The excuse of "My motorcycle is made to be rode hard and fast and I am willing to take  some risk to have some extra fun" may be your opinion, but defies any sense of saying you are ever a safe rider.

Define what risk is considered unsafe. you said riding fast around a corner.
Who defines what fast is?
How does the speed limit justify itself?
If the speed limit around a corner is 30mph. Is it unsafe to take it at 50mph?
Is it unsafe to take it at 30mph?
What if the guy at 50mph is experienced enough to take it at 50mph and crashes? Is he unsafe?
What if the guy at 20mph is not experienced enough and crashes? Is he unsafe?
 

but many take it to a suicidal level

Can you put a pin on the point where it is considered suicidal?


Now, let me get to my point of view. I thought i was a fairly safe rider. I would ride within my limits. This year alone, my limits went up dramatically since I spent a lot of time getting to know my bike and what it is capable of and what I am capable of. So my idea of safe changed. What was safe to me at 30mph, is now safe to me at 40mph because I was confident in my ability and my motorcycles capability. However after riding with a different group of people, I saw what their idea of safe was. it was drastically different from what i called safe. I'm young, but I like to think im pretty mold-able so I decided to learn from these people and adopt their level of safe (which for the record, what i THOUGHT was safe for me, was actually very dangerous)for a day. 5 minutes into adopting their idea of being safer, I crashed. As stupid as the crash was, it happened.

I could go on all day with the what ifs. But the end result was, i was taking it very safe, yet it was still dangerous going down that road.

Moral of the story? The only baseline that exists in safety, is in your head, and regardless of what you consider as safe. It's never safe enough when something bad happens. You just have to accept what you are willing to risk.

You cant say someone is lying if they believe it to be true, that's what i'm ultimately trying to get to.

[pennyrobber]

Putting in my 2 pennies worth.
 
I feel a more important question than "Are you a safe rider?" is "Are you an aware rider?". Regardless of the situation you find yourself in as a motorcyclist on a public road, your awareness is what is going to make the difference when S hits the fan. We can sit here and debate all day what constitutes "safe" but I think its useless in the end.

I always make a joke that, "a squid is anyone who rides more recklessly than I do." This is to point out the fact that we all set our own limits and often look down on those that might be outside these limits. An example would be "I do X,Y and Z therefore I am a safe rider. You do X but not Y and Z so you are not safe."

Really, it is a relative thing. For instance, most people would give the advice that if you want to drag knee and go fast, ride on the track. I completely agree with this but, if I went to the track and rode outside of my comfort and skill level, I would not be riding in a safe manner. The expert class racer who is riding much faster than me, on the other hand, should not be considered unsafe just because he is going faster.

And finally to the OP. Hell yes, a newbie rider should ride slow. They have enough to pay attention to as it is. I will have to say though, experience on a motorcycle is worth more than you might think and just because you haven't crashed doesn't make you safer than those that have. Go find some wood to knock on by the way.

[somegirl]

I know you said, "...always a safer rider..." But do you at least acknowledge that being more experienced, makes you a safer rider? If yes, do you at least acknowledge that a more experienced rider is more in control? If yes, do you at least acknowledge that the ideal of being in control has a SAFE limit? If yes, can that safe limit not conform to your idea of safe?

I'd agree with you except in the case where experience leads to complacency.

[He Man]

I'd agree with you except in the case where experience leads to complacency.

Im trying to understand how you use the word (im not that good with words). Do you mean experience will cause you to be less focused on things that are more dangerous then they seem?

----not directed to any one in particular----

Is dragging knee on the street dangerous?

a) yes, because you are going too fast
b) no, because if you know how to do it, its safe.
c) It depends on the situation.

[somegirl]

Im trying to understand how you use the word (im not that good with words). Do you mean experience will cause you to be less focused on things that are more dangerous then they seem?

Yes, that's exactly it.  It doesn't happen to everyone, but consider the difference between someone learning to drive, white-knuckling the wheel, looking about 20 times in each direction before pulling out, and someone who has been driving long enough without any incident that they feel it's ok to text, or read the newspaper, or put on makeup, or shave in the car, barely looking up.   Is the more experienced driver safer?

A bit of an extreme example, just using it as an illustration.

[Speeddog]

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[Scotzman]

Good point to motorcycles being dangerous by nature. If you want to be safe (safer), you should eliminate riding altogether, but we all recognize the risk, accept the risk, and take steps to make it safer. It's never going to be 100% safe, there's always the possiblilty of an accident, riders fault or not so we wear proper gear. If you don't, then maybe you're an idiot, but as already mentioned, it's all relative. Being in the military, I have to always wear bright or reflective clothing, and a whole list of other stuff that even I think is stupid sometimes, but it's all relative about what's safe or idiotic.